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View Full Version : Leak? Iberians are "30% Kurgan"



Fire Haired14
24-02-17, 04:23
All Europeans 8,000 years ago had Blue eyes (http://www.lavanguardia.com/lacontra/20170222/42212094430/todos-los-europeos-de-hace-8000-anos-tenian-ojos-azules.html)

The Article is in Spanish. The article is a list of declarations about European genetics by Paleogentists Carles Lalueza-Fox. He is currently working on a ancient DNA paper called "The Genomic Prehistory of the Iberian Peninsula." The interview is a regurgitation of the narrative we've been hearing for like 2 years now. But...maybe he has access to ancient Iberian genomes which confirm this narrative. This interview might be ancient DNA confirmation Iberians, not just Northern Europeans, have a big chunk of Steppe ancestry. He may be leaking ancestry estimates for Iberians based on ancient genomes.

According to him the "Kurgans" left a "a high genetic impact" on Iberia. He claimed Iberians are "50% neolithic, and the other half is distributed between 30% kurgán and 20% hunter collector." Maju will eventually have to come to turn with Steppe ancestry being not just as he calls it "Uralic" or Eastern European or Siberian or Caucasus thing but pan European thing.

I didn't notice this before...Carles Lalueza-Fox says "Kurgans" arrived(in Western Europe?) 4,000 years ago.
"Yes, 4,000 years ago came the Kurgan people"

This could be based on new ancient Western European genomes.

Maciamo
24-02-17, 10:33
2000 BCE is the period when R1b-P312 (including L21, DF27 and U152) expanded from central to western Europe. I estimated that R1b reached the Benelux and France by 2200 BCE, Britain by 2100 BCE, Ireland by 2000 BCE, and Iberia by 1800 BCE. Now it could be that R1b was in one specific part of Iberia before that, particularly Catalonia (the main point of entry from France). I am of course referring to large-scale invasions. It is entirely possible that small groups of R1b adventurers roamed across western Europe from 3000 BCE or even earlier, but they would have had a limited genetic impact in the long term.

As for the 30% Kurgan/Steppe ancestry, it all depends on how you calculate it. Is that Yamna ancestry with the Mesolithic European and Caucasian components? The difficulty is always to distinguish between the EHG and WHG that came from Yamna as opposed to other Mesolithic European populations. That's especially difficult to estimate when Steppe people have "weathered" for over 1000 years in Southeast Europe (approx. 4000 to 2800 BCE) before finally advancing to central then western Europe.

Then there is the unresolved issue of western vs eastern Yamna populations (L51 vs Z2103 ?), which could have differed autosomally, with more EEF (from G2a) in the western group and more CHG (from J2b) in the eastern one.

berun
24-02-17, 17:14
You look so much the tree that you don't see the forest. First of all this is a regional newspaper doing a personal interview, so the scientific level is as is. He also says that there was a colonization of people with dark eyes and white skin 6500 years ago. I don't know from where he takes this date, if from archaeology his knowledge as usual in the sector is low (the first Iberian neolithic is from 7700 years ago), if it's from genes, he is not aware of prehistory at all. So his mention about kurganers 4000 years ago is a data irrelevant, even more, as he says that he is a "non believer Christian" all it could be simply just an "empanada mental" (brain fart).

And now seriously, how is supposed that he is capable to distinguish that such 30% is only from IE kurganers so that real archaeological invasions as the Urnfielder and the Bronze Atlantic (3200 years ago) are not providing neither a 1%?

A simple question sets the real level reached.

Fire Haired14
25-02-17, 00:53
YHe also says that there was a colonization of people with dark eyes and white skin 6500 years ago. I don't know from where he takes this date, if from archaeology his knowledge as usual in the sector is low (the first Iberian neolithic is from 7700 years ago), if it's from genes, he is not aware of prehistory at all. So his mention about kurganers 4000 years ago is a data irrelevant, even more, as he says that he is a "non believer Christian" all it could be simply just an "empanada mental" (brain fart).


Good Point. Leaks never give exactly correct information.

berun
25-02-17, 18:26
In fact I don't think it's a leak even, similar results were provided in a recent paper about the mighty steppe warriors.

Angela
25-02-17, 18:48
I partly agree with Berun. What's the big whoops here? Haven't we known something similar since the Lazaridis and Haak papers?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-NoGN9ni1kms/VOSGkPjblNI/AAAAAAAACBo/ROwmMxVJFpI/s1600/Untitled3.png

Are we supposed to be impressed that someone has "inside" sources?

Angela
26-02-17, 00:22
I partly agree with Berun. What's the big whoops here? Haven't we known something similar since the Lazaridis and Haak papers?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-NoGN9ni1kms/VOSGkPjblNI/AAAAAAAACBo/ROwmMxVJFpI/s1600/Untitled3.png

Are we supposed to be impressed that someone has "inside" sources?

I've been mulling it over and the percentage he comes up with for "Kurgan people" is much higher than what Haak shows. The only Spaniards who come anywhere close to 30% "Kurgan" are north Spaniards in that chart, and they're Spanish Basque.

Sorry, I'll stick with the Reich lab.

Somebody please tell me he has nothing to do with the upcoming paper from a Spanish group on ancient Italian dna. If only I had won the lotto, I would have given the Reich Lab a grant to do a major study on it. :)

Angela
26-02-17, 17:36
It's interesting that Lalueza-Fox mentions that 8000 years ago all Europeans had blue eyes. I'm not so sure about that. How would we know? That doesn't sound like a very scientific comment. I don't think that's even true of all the samples we have. Yes, all the WHG we've found had blue eyes, and most of the EHG. However, didn't some of the EHG have brown eyes? Then, what about the Greek samples that were found? Didn't they have brown eyes? Weren't there already some EEF in Europe by 6000 BC? Some of them, if not all, would have had brown eyes.

The researchers who found and traced the "blue eye gene", had this to say about it

"The mutations responsible for the blue eye color most likely originate from the neareast area or northwest part of the Black Sea region, where the great agriculture migration to the northern part of Europe took place in the Neolithic periods about 6–10,000 years ago".

That's quite late. How did it get to people like La Brana and Loschbour, and with whom? Did the mutation occur in a Balkan/Black Sea refugia or actually further in Anatolia? Did it move into Europe or further into Europe with Villabruna type people? That kind of massive founder effect could happen when you're talking about such small populations.

bicicleur
26-02-17, 18:15
It's interesting that Lalueza-Fox mentions that 8000 years ago all Europeans had blue eyes. I'm not so sure about that. How would we know? That doesn't sound like a very scientific comment. I don't think that's even true of all the samples we have. Yes, all the WHG we've found had blue eyes, and most of the EHG. However, didn't some of the EHG have brown eyes? Then, what about the Greek samples that were found? Didn't they have brown eyes? Weren't there already some EEF in Europe by 6000 BC? Some of them, if not all, would have had brown eyes.

The researchers who found and traced the "blue eye gene", had this to say about it

"The mutations responsible for the blue eye color most likely originate from the neareast area or northwest part of the Black Sea region, where the great agriculture migration to the northern part of Europe took place in the Neolithic periods about 6–10,000 years ago".

That's quite late. How did it get to people like La Brana and Loschbour, and with whom? Did the mutation occur in a Balkan/Black Sea refugia or actually further in Anatolia? Did it move into Europe or further into Europe with Villabruna type people? That kind of massive founder effect could happen when you're talking about such small populations.

do we know the eye colour of European samples before Villabruna?

if Villabruna didn't bring it, I wouldn't know who else could have, unless it was in Europe already before

but uptill now it's not sure :

La Braña-Arintero, Leon [La Braña 1]dark hair, probability of blue eyes, darker skin than Neolithic sample
Loschbour, Heffingen [LSB 1]dark hair, 50% probability of blue eyes, darker skin than Neolithic sample

Angela
26-02-17, 18:39
do we know the eye colour of European samples before Villabruna?

if Villabruna didn't bring it, I wouldn't know who else could have, unless it was in Europe already before

but uptill now it's not sure :

La Braña-Arintero, Leon [La Braña 1]dark hair, probability of blue eyes, darker skin than Neolithic sample
Loschbour, Heffingen [LSB 1]dark hair, 50% probability of blue eyes, darker skin than Neolithic sample

I think one of the Karelia samples was dark hair, brown eyes, fair skin (i.e. both of the important snps). Malta was dark hair, dark eyes, dark skin, and Kostenki before him.

I don't remember anything older than the Mesolithic in western Europe being tested.

Oh, what about the Neanderthal influenced Romanian sample? Did they get and publish that kind of data?

If I had to guess I'd say it came from Villabruna type people. Given the tracking to the southeast that could mean a Balkan/Black Sea refugia or further into Anatolia. That would explain why some of the Anatolian Neolithic farmers had blue eyes.

Fire Haired14
26-02-17, 21:13
Ancient Phenotype (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xe9sgt0PSt6cUQ3cYp14foBoaVGsOKZBmmHJoKz0HB0/edit#gid=1798287387)

All WHGs and Latvian WHGs have dark skin, blue eye combo. UkraineHGs and EHGs have mostly light skin, brown eye combo. Pre-WHG Western Europeans had dark skin, brown eye.

bicicleur
26-02-17, 23:07
Given the tracking to the southeast that could mean a Balkan/Black Sea refugia or further into Anatolia. That would explain why some of the Anatolian Neolithic farmers had blue eyes.

I was actually thinking the same, but I don't know how to draw a straight line in all of this.

bicicleur
26-02-17, 23:10
Ancient Phenotype (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xe9sgt0PSt6cUQ3cYp14foBoaVGsOKZBmmHJoKz0HB0/edit#gid=1798287387)

All WHGs and Latvian WHGs have dark skin, blue eye combo. UkraineHGs and EHGs have mostly light skin, brown eye combo. Pre-WHG Western Europeans had dark skin, brown eye.

the Latvians were a WHG/EHG mixture
so WHG would have been dark skin, blue eye and EHG light skin, brown eye
we need more data to confirm though

and what about EEF ?

Fire Haired14
26-02-17, 23:58
the Latvians were a WHG/EHG mixture
so WHG would have been dark skin, blue eye and EHG light skin, brown eye
we need more data to confirm though

and what about EEF ?

EEF results are in the spreadsheet. The results suggest they were mostly brown eyed and kind of light skinned. Central European EEFs had a lot more blue eyes than Iberian ones. If there was some variation in European EEF that opens the door for variation in every ancient group.

berun
26-04-17, 07:26
More "leaks" from this archaeogenetist in the yellow science magazine Quo:

http://www.quo.es/ciencia/grandes-secretos-de-la-historia-que-nuestro-adn-pone-patas-arriba

berun
26-04-17, 07:31
Hay más de 200 genomas publicados de los diferentes periodos y ello ha permitido explicar los movimientos de población que han dado lugar a los europeos actuales. Según Carles Lalueza-Fox, uno de los mayores expertos en ADN antiguo, tendríamos componentes genómicos de tres fuentes. Por una parte estarían los cazadores recolectores del Mesolítico. A ellos se superponen los agricultores que vinieron de Oriente Próximo hace 10.000 años. Pero hay una tercera capa genética: “Hemos descubierto que en la Edad de Cobre, al final del Neolítico, entró de golpe una emigración de las estepas de Asia Central, unas élites militares que arrasaron con la población”, explica el biólogo.
Lalueza-Fox asegura que la genética nos deja descubrir no solo la historia lejana, sino procesos sociales. “Los restos arqueológicos no te permiten saber cómo se mueve la gente. El genoma, sí”, señala. Los hombres de las estepas llegaron hará unos 5.000 años. Alrededor de un 30 % de la actual población europea conserva sus genes. De los cazadores recolectores podría ser un 20 %. Curiosamente, estos tenían la pigmentación de la piel más oscura y ojos azules. Su sustrato genético es más alto en el norte de Europa, donde quedaron más aislados. Actualmente, el equipo de Carles Lalueza-Fox trabaja con la Universidad de Harvard en la expansión de culturas más recientes, como la campaniforme. “Con las actuales técnicas no tenemos límites –concluye– y podemos confirmar o desmentir hipótesis arqueológicas”.

Well, we see that the percents given were not for Iberians as understood the other journalist but for Europeans, even if the journalist of this article understood what she was capable to understand... the figure posted before by Angela makes sense now. The data is just a melting pot.

berun
26-04-17, 07:36
Just curious about these warriors from the Central Asia steppes conquering Europe 5000 years ago. Lalueza-Fox is thinking that the Pontic-Caspian steppe of the Yamnayans was in Kazakhstan, or it is that after sampling a group of western Yamnayans they have not found any good R1b and R1a to justify the steppe theory? It would be a better alternative to Yamnayans-riding-sirens as holy cows would have an extra 25 years pack to stick in the steppes.

berun
29-04-17, 09:44
“We have discovered that in the Chalcolithic, at the end of the Neolithic, it came suddenly an emigration from the Central Asian steppes, military elites that devastated the population"

Well, if he puts the Chalcolithic at the end of the Neolithic it's perfectly possible to put also the Pontic-Caspian steppe in Kazakhstan...

MOESAN
29-04-17, 13:52
I'm not sure it will help too much concerning old pops, but the 1900/1950's european regions showing the most of excess of light eyes compared to hairs were the so called "celtic" lands of North-West, after that North (Germanics more than Finns or Balts) and the Balkans; but apparently in this last regions, the excess of light eyes was not sided by excess of light skin (in the european concept of light skin) for I know -