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Fire Haired14
01-03-17, 13:05
Peuplement du sud de la sibérie et de I’ Altaï à I’âge du Bronze : apport de la paléogénétique (http://Peuplement du sud de la sibérie et de I’ Altaï à I’âge du Bronze : apport de la paléogénétique)

That French Thesis presents Y DNA, mtDNA, and hand picked SNP results for many ancient northern Asians.
Y DNA results pg. 88
mtDNA results pg. 80
Pigmentation SNP results pg. 180
Description of Archaeological Sites pg. 44

Here are the Y DNA results of the ancient northern Asians...

Afanasevo Culture, 3600-2600 BC
R1b1a2-M269, R1b1a2-M269, R1b1a(xR1b1a1 M73)

Bol'shemysskaya Culture. Eneolithic.
R1b1a2-M269

Okunevo Culture, 2300-1800 BC
NO(xO), NO(xO), NO(xO), Q1a3a-L54, Q1a3-M346(xL54), R1b1a2-M269.

Munkh-Khairkhan Culture, 1700-1400 BC
NO(xO), NO(xO)

Sagsai Culture, 1400-900 BC
Q1a3a-L54, Q1a3a-L54, Q1a3a-L54, R1a-Z93, R1a-Z93, R1a-Z93, C-M130

Fire Haired14
01-03-17, 13:09
I'll make a post at my blog about ancient North Asian mtDNA soon. The mtDNA results from this thesis are similar to already released results of ancient North Asians from the same time period. The only differnce are orignally Near Eastern lineages which Afanasevo introduced; T2a1b, H6, J.

T2a1b has been found in Yamnaya and Afanasievo already. H6 has been found in Afanasevo, Yamnaya, Catacomb, and all Steppe admixed cultures in Europe.

Several Afanasievo indviduals from this thesis and a recently published paper have East Asian mHGs. This is surprising because Afanasievo genomes are identical to Yamnaya, they have no East Asian admixture.

Fire Haired14
01-03-17, 13:19
Afanasevo results in pigmentation SNPs. These results are consistent with results from Yamnaya.

Indvidual ID, rs16891982, rs12913832, mtDNA
Kh19: CG, A, mHG C
Kh20: G, AG, mHG C
Kh21: CG, G, mHG H6
Kh22: C, A, mHG U4
Aaf2: G, AG, mHG H?
Aaf3: C, --, mHG U5a1d2b
Maf1: CG, A, H?

Angela
01-03-17, 16:24
@Fire-Haired,

The Altai is not North Asia. Even if it were, these people didn't "originate" there.

The pigmentation makes sense if Afanasievo is an offshoot of eastern Yamnaya. Not blonde cowboys of the steppe, I'm afraid.

Dov
01-03-17, 16:30
Thanks. As expected, the offshoot of eastern(?) Yamnaya.
Some reconstruction:

Afanasevo Culture
http://s019.radikal.ru/i633/1703/c3/35a27e7e1333.jpg

Bol'shemysskaya Culture
http://static.wixstatic.com/media/833645_bf93038edbe4911247f1ff32304def35.png_srz_29 0_448_85_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_png_srz

Okunevo Culture
http://www.stanradar.com/upload/news/original/1399000657_58503200.png

bicicleur
01-03-17, 17:48
Have Okunevo and subsequent culture been tested for EDAR and other Mongoloïd traits?
The reconstructions are Caucasoid.

johen
01-03-17, 17:53
Thanks. As expected, the offshoot of eastern(?) Yamnaya.
Some reconstruction:

Afanasevo Culture


Bol'shemysskaya Culture


Okunevo Culture
http://www.stanradar.com/upload/news/original/1399000657_58503200.png

I don't think okunevo people looks like that. However, okunevo and afanasievo Y seem to explain all things well.
by the way, what kind of culture is Bol'shemysskaya Culture?


The Okunev tribes of the Minusinsk Basin, those associated with Karakol, Ust-Tartas, and Krotovo cultures as well those buried in “Andronoid” cemeteries of Western Siberia at Yelovka II and Cherno-ozerye were apparently descendants of the local Neolithic tribes. All these groups display highly peculiar and apparently very ancient trait combinations which could hardly have resulted from an admixture between Mongoloids and Caucasoids. The role of the European component in their origins remains unclear.
CRANIOMETRIC EVIDENCE OF THE EARLY CAUCASOID MIGRATIONS TO SIBERIA AND EASTERN CENTRAL ASIA, WITH REFERENCE TO THE INDO-EUROPEAN PROBLEM Article (PDF Available) in Archaeology Ethnology and Anthropology of Eurasia 37(4):125-136 · December 2009
by AG Kozintsev


http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33566-Was-Afontova-Gora-an-ancestor-of-Afanasievo-yamna-or-not

LeBrok
01-03-17, 17:58
Afanasevo results in pigmentation SNPs. These results are consistent with results from Yamnaya.

Indvidual ID, rs16891982, rs12913832, mtDNA
Kh19: CG, A, mHG C
Kh20: G, AG, mHG C
Kh21: CG, G, mHG H6
Kh22: C, A, mHG U4
Aaf2: G, AG, mHG H?
Aaf3: C, --, mHG U5a1d2b
Maf1: CG, A, H?
Yes, they are almost exactly like East Yamnayans. Probably a bit more northern or eastern as they mixed less with Transcaucasian immigrants. They had a bit less Baloch and Caucasian and a bit more NE Euro than Yamnaya. Otherwise 90% exactly same genetics. They had 1.5% more Siberian, but otherwise 0% SE Asian, so no East Asiatic/Mongoloid admixtures yet.



M828784
Rise511

M343758
I0443


Afanasievo

Yamnaya


Run time
9.70

Run time
9.86


S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-


Baloch
28.13

Baloch
30.37


Caucasian
2.18

Caucasian
6.26


NE-Euro
63.76

NE-Euro
58.91


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-


Siberian
1.64

Siberian
0.13


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-

Papuan
-


American
3.56

American
2.00


Beringian
-

Beringian
1.31


Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
0.87


SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-


San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
0.72

W-African
0.13

Dov
01-03-17, 18:00
Have Okunevo and subsequent culture been tested for EDAR and other Mongoloïd traits?
The reconstructions are Caucasoid.
There have been a fully Mongoloid skulls and fully Europeoid skulls. Mongoloid skulls prevailed. It's just a reconstruction of Europeoids.

Tomenable
01-03-17, 18:00
Not blonde cowboys of the steppe, I'm afraid.Blonde cowboys were Andronovo, Sintashta, Potapovka and Srubnaya, I think.

johen
01-03-17, 18:03
Have Okunevo and subsequent culture been tested for EDAR and other Mongoloïd traits?
The reconstructions are Caucasoid.
Problem is afanasievo had 2 EDNAR.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ectodysplasin_A_receptor

Angela
01-03-17, 18:32
My motto has become never trust reconstructions based just on skulls or parts of skulls. A lot of fantasy goes into them unless you have desiccated mummies like Otzi, which give a lot more information, and even then be a little skeptical.

SHG also had EDAR.

I wasn't discussing anything but Afanasievo, so all the Eurogenes fan boys can relax.

Still, I think it's pretty clear that "Fairness" did not come from Yamnaya itself, unless the western more admixed populations of the total Yamnaya horizon carried it.

On Jean's page, I don't see any results for pigmentation for Srubnaya. Andronovo has a brown hair and brown eyes, although a lot of light eyes as well. I don't see any results from Sintashta. Maybe more modern papers didn't test for it? I don't know.
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/copperbronzeagedna.shtml

Maybe Fire-Haired has some other results.

Whatever, this is the least important part of this study.

Dov
01-03-17, 18:32
I don't think okunevo people looks like that. However, okunevo and afanasievo Y seem to explain all things well.

But Russian anthropologists, who found there Mongoloid and Caucasoid skulls, think so.


CRANIOMETRIC EVIDENCE OF THE EARLY CAUCASOID MIGRATIONS TO SIBERIA AND EASTERN CENTRAL ASIA, WITH REFERENCE TO THE INDO-EUROPEAN PROBLEM Article (PDF Available) in Archaeology Ethnology and Anthropology of Eurasia 37(4):125-136 · December 2009
by AG Kozintsev

According to A.V. Gromov, Okunevo is a mixed culture consisting of newcomers Afanasevan and local Neolithic (Mongoloid) population. And the result of Y DNA confirm this.
Also Caucasoid skulls of Okunevo similar to the Yamnaya of Kalmykia and Astrakhan, and have a similar artificial deformation. (Gromov 2002)

johen
01-03-17, 19:16
Also Caucasoid skulls of Okunevo similar to the Yamnaya of Kalmykia and Astrakhan, and have a similar artificial deformation. (Gromov 2002)

I think Okunevo genetics admixture agrees with AG Kozintsev's 2009 reserach.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33566-Was-Afontova-Gora-an-ancestor-of-Afanasievo-yamna-or-not

By the way, did okunevo and Yamnaya's skulls have a deformation also like afanasievo's?

One more, I cannot find the information about Bol'shemysskaya Culture.
can you give me information about that culture?

Dov
01-03-17, 19:39
By the way, did okunevo and Yamnaya's skulls have a deformation also like afanasievo's?
Nothing said about it. Presumably, the deformation was due to the similarity of designs children's cradles.



One more, I cannot find the information about Bol'shemysskaya Culture.
can you give me information about that culture?
Mixed Caucasoid-Mongoloid population, according to the link. Not so much info, only in Russian, try Google-translate:
http://altarcheomuseum.wixsite.com/altai-archeology/eneolithic
http://new.hist.asu.ru/biblio/borod1/254-261.html

MarkoZ
01-03-17, 19:42
I think Okunevo genetics admixture agrees with AG Kozintsev's 2009 reserach.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33566-Was-Afontova-Gora-an-ancestor-of-Afanasievo-yamna-or-not

The Yeniseian cultures gave birth to the cultural superstrate of the steppe that persisted well into historic times (and arguably still exists among extant Siberian & Eastern European populations). People of variegated background and morphology would probably have assimilated into this umbrella. Russian archaeologists sometimes misleadingly refer cultures of this typology as 'Scythic' (as opposed to 'Scythian', which is used to denote Iranian linguistic affiliation), but 'Siberian' would probably more appropriate since due to its origin in Okunevo.

LeBrok
01-03-17, 20:35
The Yeniseian cultures gave birth to the cultural superstrate of the steppe that persisted well into historic times (and arguably still exists among extant Siberian & Eastern European populations). People of variegated background and morphology would probably have assimilated into this umbrella. Russian archaeologists sometimes misleadingly refer cultures of this typology as 'Scythic' (as opposed to 'Scythian', which is used to denote Iranian linguistic affiliation), but 'Siberian' would probably more appropriate since due to its origin in Okunevo.The longest genetic close continuity of steppe nations (that we found so far) is so far Yamnaya-Afansievo-Scythian:



Yamnaya







M828815
Rise552

M828784
Rise511

M348213
i0247


Ulan iV, Yamnaya
4.5 kya

Afanasievo

scythian



Run time
9.08

Run time
9.7

Run time
11.07


S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
0.67


Baloch
33.24

Baloch
28.13

Baloch
24.99


Caucasian
6.58

Caucasian
2.18

Caucasian
7.68


NE-Euro
56.02

NE-Euro
63.76

NE-Euro
45.27


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
0.83


Siberian
-

Siberian
1.64

Siberian
6.39


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
1.31


Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-


American
2.46

American
3.56

American
2.85


Beringian
0.75

Beringian
-

Beringian
1.4


Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
8.62


SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-


San
-

San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
0.95

W-African
0.72

W-African
-

bicicleur
01-03-17, 21:19
finally we see some more of the advance of Y-DNA N westbound into Siberia
it's a pitty we don't have any subclades, just NOxO

till now we just had 1 individual N in Smolensk area 4.5 ka and the 'K' in Bajkal Kitoi, which IMO is N, though we don't have subclades there either

what is Munkh-Khairkhan Culture, 1700-1400 BC ?

Kristiina
02-03-17, 00:11
The haplogroup of Munkh-Khairkhan samples is not clear. On the basis of SNP it is defined NO-214 and on the basis of DYS values C3 with only 55.4% and 77.1% probability.

Fire Haired14
02-03-17, 07:01
SHG also had EDAR.

Pretty much everyone in this study had EDAR except Afanasuvo.


On Jean's page, I don't see any results for pigmentation for Srubnaya. Andronovo has a brown hair and brown eyes, although a lot of light eyes as well. I don't see any results from Sintashta. Maybe more modern papers didn't test for it? I don't know.
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/copperbronzeagedna.shtml

Maybe Fire-Haired has some other results.


Srubnaya and Sintashta results are the same as Andronovo so far.

bicicleur
02-03-17, 08:55
Pretty much everyone in this study had EDAR except Afanasuvo.



Srubnaya and Sintashta results are the same as Andronovo so far.

and is there a difference between Srubnaya and Catacomb?

bicicleur
02-03-17, 08:58
The longest genetic close continuity of steppe nations (that we found so far) is so far Yamnaya-Afansievo-Scythian:



Yamnaya







M828815
Rise552

M828784
Rise511

M348213
i0247


Ulan iV, Yamnaya
4.5 kya

Afanasievo

scythian



Run time
9.08

Run time
9.7

Run time
11.07


S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
0.67


Baloch
33.24

Baloch
28.13

Baloch
24.99


Caucasian
6.58

Caucasian
2.18

Caucasian
7.68


NE-Euro
56.02

NE-Euro
63.76

NE-Euro
45.27


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
0.83


Siberian
-

Siberian
1.64

Siberian
6.39


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
1.31


Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-


American
2.46

American
3.56

American
2.85


Beringian
0.75

Beringian
-

Beringian
1.4


Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
8.62


SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-


San
-

San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
0.95

W-African
0.72

W-African
-




and how about
Sintashta-Andronovo-Scythian?

Maciamo
02-03-17, 10:04
No big surprise for Afanasievo's R1b-M269. I have been saying it since 2009.

Okunevo's NO(xO) might be Siberian N1c, which spread from Mongolia/Manchuria to Northeast Europe, although at a much earlier date. This could be a second migration from Mongolia, this time accompanied by Q1a-L54.

It's not impossible that a very small percentage of Q1a came into Europe with the Proto-Uralic N1c migration circa 5000 BCE. After all Q1a was found in the Khvalynsk culture. Q1a-L54 is ancestral to all Mongolian people, but also to Amerindians and to half of Scandinavian Q1a (the other branch being Q-L527). That would explain how that particular Q1a got into Northeast Europe. Note how L54's brother clade, YP4004 is now found in Siberia, Poland and the North Caucasus. It might have come to Europe together with N1c and Q1a-L54 (presumably the Q-L804 subclade). L-804 formed 15,000 years ago, but nearly went extinct after coming to Europe. Its TMRCA is only 3,000 years old. It might have been present in the Volga-Ural and Finland before that but only one individual survived in Scandinavia and became the ancestor of all Q-L804 today.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Q1a-tree.png

MOESAN
02-03-17, 14:57
Thanks. As expected, the offshoot of eastern(?) Yamnaya.
Some reconstruction:

Afanasevo Culture
http://s019.radikal.ru/i633/1703/c3/35a27e7e1333.jpg

Bol'shemysskaya Culture
http://static.wixstatic.com/media/833645_bf93038edbe4911247f1ff32304def35.png_srz_29 0_448_85_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_png_srz

Okunevo Culture
http://www.stanradar.com/upload/news/original/1399000657_58503200.png


I cannot rely on these reconstructions but the Bolshemysskaya skull (so reliable!) has a strong 'borrebylike' aspect more on the western 'cromagnoid' model (top of skull, orbits proportions and shape, nose aperture and profile; maybe the cheekbones are a bit forwards?, not sure, the drawing is not to faithfull to the crania profile aside him -
shall we found among bigger samples some rare Y-I2a(2)???

the mt-DNA can abuse us: if it has been a first strong input of bunches of east-asian females, but after that only additions of new west-eurasian males, the auDNA, if 50/50 at first, could reverse quickly enough to majority of westeurasian DNA, keeping the deep mark of east-asian DNA because transmitted only by mums to their children: a not too fool hypothesis; this dychotomy between Hg, Y or mt, compared to auDNA, when complicated contacts/absorbtions of pops have occurred, has been discussed here and there before -
in Slavs it seems the contrary occurred: after crossings and come back West, the new introductions of western females can have erased ancient east-asian (weak enough) mt-DNA,all that giving the impression of "purity" spite some east-asian auDNA is found (weaker yet, of course).

MOESAN
02-03-17, 15:15
Problem is afanasievo had 2 EDNAR.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ectodysplasin_A_receptor

Surely you know, a tree is not a wood - 2 among how much tested? that's the question; and we don't know if EDAR was not present long ago among central Eurasians before a specialization very stronger among future 'mongoloids'? Some Scandinavians HGs had EDAR; did they inherited it from crossings with far East-Asians or only from deep ancestry from Central Asia before genic redistributions?
a (pheno)type is constituted by the concentration in a pop of some statistically dominant traits, dense here, absent or very rare in other pops - this racialization process, never complete among too mobile humans, put some people to believe the presence of a rare supposed "exotic" trait among a pop is the sign of more or less recent crossings between well formed types; it's often the case, but sometimes this traits are ancient enough and inherited before the process of partial "racialization" has begun -
that said I don't see why a few crossings would not have occurred in the far eastern Steppes at those times, even if the input was weak...

johen
02-03-17, 17:50
finally we see some more of the advance of Y-DNA N westbound into Siberia
it's a pitty we don't have any subclades, just NOxO

till now we just had 1 individual N in Smolensk area 4.5 ka and the 'K' in Bajkal Kitoi, which IMO is N, though we don't have subclades there either

How about this one?

Ancient R1a1 and N1c from western Russia
"Below is a table of ancient DNA results from a recent study on uniparental genetic diversity in the Upper Dvina region of western Russia. The oldest sample is that of a ~6,000 year-old hunter-gatherer belonging to Y-haplogroup R1a1 and mtDNA H. Note also the presence of the typically Uralic Y-haplogroup N1c in a couple of the younger samples."

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQMlJFLUlUb3hkb2M/view
http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2015/02/ancient-r1a1-and-n1c-from-western-russia.html

Aaron1981
02-03-17, 18:17
The SNPs indicate they were light-medium-dark brown hair. This range is the most common in Europe today. I'm still a little skeptical on the skin fairness SNPs. I'm not suggesting they were paste white looking Prince Harry's, but I have a hard time believing they were Tamil brown colour. It just doesn't make a lot of sense. After all, East Asians in the north at least are light but lack the common European skin lightening SNPs. It might be a little more complicated than we think, but I'm not geneticist so I could definitely be wrong.

bicicleur
02-03-17, 18:48
How about this one?

Ancient R1a1 and N1c from western Russia
"Below is a table of ancient DNA results from a recent study on uniparental genetic diversity in the Upper Dvina region of western Russia. The oldest sample is that of a ~6,000 year-old hunter-gatherer belonging to Y-haplogroup R1a1 and mtDNA H. Note also the presence of the typically Uralic Y-haplogroup N1c in a couple of the younger samples."

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQMlJFLUlUb3hkb2M/view
http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2015/02/ancient-r1a1-and-n1c-from-western-russia.html



it's the same one, Smolensk Area = Upper Dvina region

bicicleur
02-03-17, 18:49
The SNPs indicate they were light-medium-dark brown hair. This range is the most common in Europe today. I'm still a little skeptical on the skin fairness SNPs. I'm not suggesting they were paste white looking Prince Harry's, but I have a hard time believing they were Tamil brown colour. It just doesn't make a lot of sense. After all, East Asians in the north at least are light but lack the common European skin lightening SNPs. It might be a little more complicated than we think, but I'm not geneticist so I could definitely be wrong.

I have the same feeling.

LeBrok
02-03-17, 19:12
and how about
Sintashta-Andronovo-Scythian? From left Estonia CW, Samara Outlier, the guys who resemble the BA Steppe the most. Next 3 similar population of Steppe. You can see Baloch rising and Med dropping, which tells us that they have more East Yamnaya in them than Estonian CW. If Andronovo migrated from CW they have picked up more East Yamnaya on their way. Last two are Scythian and Yamnayan. Here the Scythian looks like a mix between Andronovo and East Yamnaya, but with a twist. He also has additional Siberian, and higher Caucasian, the latter from Transcaucasian source.
It is possible that Scythian has nothing much to do with East Yamnaya but is from Andronovo population, which with time mixed with 10% more Siberian/NE Asian/American source, and about 10% with Iranian/Caucasian (IE back migration, or from constant contact between Iranian tribes?).


M913021
Rise00

M630274
I0432, R1a Z93
M690970
Rise386, Z93
M217196
I0430, R1a Z93
M608028
RISE505

M348213
i0247

M828815
Rise552


Estonia CW
4 kya

Samara Poltavka outlier
2925-2536 BC
Sintashta
4kya

Srubna
3.5kya

Andronovo

scythian


Ulan iV, Yamnaya
4.5 kya


Run Time
8.05

Run time
7.79

Run time
3.81

Run time
8.02

Run time
13.24

Run time
11.07

Run time
9.08


S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
0.54

S-Indian
0.67

S-Indian
-


Baloch
14.27

Baloch
14.7

Baloch
18.5

Baloch
19.86

Baloch
21.23

Baloch
24.99

Baloch
33.24


Caucasian
-

Caucasian
-

Caucasian
2.01

Caucasian
2.35

Caucasian
2.4

Caucasian
7.68

Caucasian
6.58


NE-Euro
59.09

NE-Euro
63.14

NE-Euro
57.8

NE-Euro
55.13

NE-Euro
56.39

NE-Euro
45.27

NE-Euro
56.02


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
0.83

SE-Asian
-


Siberian
0.8

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
1.93

Siberian
6.39

Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
1.31

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-


American
-

American
-

American
-

American
0.91

American
1.05

American
2.85

American
2.46


Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
0.56

Beringian
-

Beringian
1.22

Beringian
1.4

Beringian
0.75


Mediterranean
25.26

Mediterranean
22.15

Mediterranean
19.92

Mediterranean
21.67

Mediterranean
14.37

Mediterranean
8.62

Mediterranean
-


SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-


San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
0.07

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
0.06

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
0.5

W-African
-

W-African
1.2

W-African
-

W-African
0.81

W-African
-

W-African
0.95

Angela
02-03-17, 20:01
From left Estonia CW, Samara Outlier, the guys who resemble the BA Steppe the most. Next 3 similar population of Steppe. You can see Baloch rising and Med dropping, which tells us that they have more East Yamnaya in them than Estonian CW. If Andronovo migrated from CW they have picked up more East Yamnaya on their way. Last two are Scythian and Yamnayan. Here the Scythian looks like a mix between Andronovo and East Yamnaya, but with a twist. He also has additional Siberian, and higher Caucasian, the latter from Transcaucasian source.
It is possible that Scythian has nothing much to do with East Yamnaya but is from Andronovo population, which with time mixed with 10% more Siberian/NE Asian/American source, and about 10% with Iranian/Caucasian (IE back migration, or from constant contact between Iranian tribes?).


M913021
Rise00

M630274
I0432, R1a Z93
M690970
Rise386, Z93
M217196
I0430, R1a Z93
M608028
RISE505

M348213
i0247

M828815
Rise552


Estonia CW
4 kya

Samara Poltavka outlier
2925-2536 BC
Sintashta
4kya

Srubna
3.5kya

Andronovo

scythian


Ulan iV, Yamnaya
4.5 kya


Run Time
8.05

Run time
7.79

Run time
3.81

Run time
8.02

Run time
13.24

Run time
11.07

Run time
9.08


S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
0.54

S-Indian
0.67

S-Indian
-


Baloch
14.27

Baloch
14.7

Baloch
18.5

Baloch
19.86

Baloch
21.23

Baloch
24.99

Baloch
33.24


Caucasian
-

Caucasian
-

Caucasian
2.01

Caucasian
2.35

Caucasian
2.4

Caucasian
7.68

Caucasian
6.58


NE-Euro
59.09

NE-Euro
63.14

NE-Euro
57.8

NE-Euro
55.13

NE-Euro
56.39

NE-Euro
45.27

NE-Euro
56.02


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
0.83

SE-Asian
-


Siberian
0.8

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
1.93

Siberian
6.39

Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
1.31

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-


American
-

American
-

American
-

American
0.91

American
1.05

American
2.85

American
2.46


Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
0.56

Beringian
-

Beringian
1.22

Beringian
1.4

Beringian
0.75


Mediterranean
25.26

Mediterranean
22.15

Mediterranean
19.92

Mediterranean
21.67

Mediterranean
14.37

Mediterranean
8.62

Mediterranean
-


SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-


San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
0.07

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
0.06

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
0.5

W-African
-

W-African
1.2

W-African
-

W-African
0.81

W-African
-

W-African
0.95




There's a possibility that we may not yet have the exact population from which Andronovo derived.

bicicleur
02-03-17, 22:07
I taught both Andronovo and Srubnaya were Sintashta-derived.
But both got some extra Baloch and some less NE-Euro.
When Sintashta appeared Eastern Yamna seems to have disappeared, but sure there must have been remnants of them in some remote areas.

As for Scythian, we don't know where exactly it originated. Maybe in the Altaï Mts.

Angela
02-03-17, 22:23
I have the same feeling.

Skin pigmentation is a multi-genetic trait. That's why in criminal forensics you need much more than just two to make a prediction. I've posted links to the tests previously. They have a very high accuracy rate. Population geneticists use those tests for making predictions. I know that Lazaridis does, for example. TYR is pretty important in that regard. Also, OCA2/HERC 2, which codes for blue eyes, also affects skin pigmentation to some degree.

There are a lot of Middle Easterners who have two copies of derived SLC24A5 but only one or no copies of derived SLC42A5, and they're not Tamil brown. Indeed, there are Mediterranean Europeans with two copies of derived SLC24A5 but only one copy of derived SLC42A5, but perhaps because of TYR and some other minor effect genes they have what's usually called an olive complexion. I would be willing to bet that's what Sophia Loren probably has, for instance.


So, we don't know the precise color of the skin of the WHG, but we know they were darker than the first Anatolian farmers, and, in fact, the EEF became darker through admixture with them, especially in Spain, going by the results of the Spanish Neolithic.

johen
02-03-17, 22:44
I cannot rely on these reconstructions but the Bolshemysskaya skull (so reliable!) has a strong 'borrebylike' aspect more on the western 'cromagnoid' model (top of skull, orbits proportions and shape, nose aperture and profile; maybe the cheekbones are a bit forwards?, not sure, the drawing is not to faithfull to the crania profile aside him -
shall we found among bigger samples some rare Y-I2a(2)???


That guy was a shaman.
I think he is somewhat different from borreby. The skull drawing of lips and browridge parts gave me an impression of being mixed, but I don’t know.

original Borreby sample:
https://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/gutenberg.org/6/3/3/6335/6335-h/images/fig05.jpg

I think Bolshemys R1b-P297 looks like older than Afanasievo’s, b/c radiocarbon gave a date as early as 3,000bc on afanasievo remians.
Moreover, Boshemys culture seems to belong to Northern Eurasian anthropological formation like Ust-Tartas culture, being related with Okunevo also.

Even if the russian site explains that they were mixed people of mongoloid and caucasian, I think they would be intermediary between mongoloid and caucasian as mentioned before.

Eneolithic population is a mixed physical type, "formed in the process of long-term contacts" Mongoloids and Caucasians
http://altarcheomuseum.wixsite.com/altai-archeology/eneolithic

Archaeologically before 2,000bc, the yellow zone might be a bridge between pontic steppe and the Altai. So there was copper mining in east Ural around fourth millennium BC, but in sintashta around 2,000bc. I think it could be very difficult to pass the steppe by walking without the transportation. I think Human wisdom made people to use forest steppe of the red zone. I think that is why David Anthony tried to connect botai horse-riding culture to both of Yamna and afanasievo, but it is less persuasive.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mbYRi_rLvlE/UAWpFKRfa2I/AAAAAAAAALo/wVMb9PVM4xs/s1600/U2e-U4-U5region.png


T.A. Chikisheva defines them anthropologically as Northern Eurasian Anthropological Formation and Southern Eurasian Anthropological Formation. Studies found anthropological continuity between the people of the Neolithic and Ust-Tartas cultures (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ust-Tartas_culture&action=edit&redlink=1) in the Baraba steppe. Evidence indicates an influx of Bolshemys culture from the Barnaul-Biysk-Ob area or their descendants into the anthropological milieu of Ust-Tartas culture of the Baraba province.
In the Early Bronze Age (3200–2300 BC), the population of the Baraba steppe retained capacity of the indigenous anthropological substrate, having assimilated the migrant Bolshemys Culture. The Ust-Tartas Culture, in turn, was replaced by the anthropological complex of the Odinov culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odinov_culture), and later by Krotov culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krotov_culture), with the anthropological composition of the population containing only autochthonous morphological complex.[ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolshemys_culture#cite_note-5)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolshemys_culture

LeBrok
02-03-17, 22:49
I taught both Andronovo and Srubnaya were Sintashta-derived.
But both got some extra Baloch and some less NE-Euro.
When Sintashta appeared Eastern Yamna seems to have disappeared, but sure there must have been remnants of them in some remote areas.

As for Scythian, we don't know where exactly it originated. Maybe in the Altaï Mts.

Probably not Altai, because at roughly same time people living there had way more Siberian and East Asian admixtures, and less NE Euro. A big change from Afansievo population, who lived there 2ky before. But not yet Mongolien like, who have 40% of NE Asian in them. I'm sure Scythian will be mostly Bronze Age Steppe genetics with extra Siberian and Iranian/Caucasian.



F999969
Rise607

F999965
Rise902


Altai, Russia, Verh-Uimon,
2kya

Russia, Sary-Bel, Kytmanovo Altai
2kya


Run time
11.91

Run time
9.23


S-Indian
-

S-Indian
0.92


Baloch
18.57

Baloch
19.12


Caucasian
1.12

Caucasian
7.36


NE-Euro
29.87

NE-Euro
32.39


SE-Asian
0.97

SE-Asian
0.28


Siberian
20.18

Siberian
22.17


NE-Asian
11.59

NE-Asian
6.52


Papuan
1.39

Papuan
-


American
4.06

American
4.3


Beringian
5.05

Beringian
4.25


Mediterranean
6.6

Mediterranean
1.18


SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-


San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
0.59

W-African
1.52



Any idea about haplogroups of these guys? I wonder if R1b was still left in Altai, or Afansievo completely vacated the area? Though there is some Med and Caucasian admixture in these guys, sign of Afansievo guys. These admixtures have no place in Siberia without European Steppe people.

MarkoZ
02-03-17, 23:34
The cultural package that archaeologists consider 'Scythian' seems to have arisen in some place in the triangle od Mongolia-Kazakhstan-Harappa. The author of this paper seems to believe that the animal style art was a local adaption of southern Harappan art which the steppe dwellers sought to imitate.

https://www.csen.org/BAR%20Book/06%20Part%204%20(0.3)Iron.Int.pdf

I think this would be more or less in accord with the available historical accounts that generally have the Scythians migrating from the east into Europe. Of course, the question is whether everything that looks Scythian actually is Scythian in the sense of being speakers of Iranian. One can really only speculative with these pre-literate cultures. What's more, the populations of the steppes also seemed to have mixed with one another quite freely, which complicates things even further.

The latter is also why I'd think that the demic impact of the original Scythian population would have been pretty small once they'd arrived in the extreme west of Russia.

Arame
26-03-17, 10:36
My friend looked at Afanasevo. He says they are almost certainly Z2103.

Bolshemis is P297 xM269

Olympus Mons
26-03-17, 12:17
Arame...what is Bolshemis?

MOESAN
26-03-17, 20:10
That guy was a shaman.
I think he is somewhat different from borreby. The skull drawing of lips and browridge parts gave me an impression of being mixed, but I don’t know.

original Borreby sample:
https://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/gutenberg.org/6/3/3/6335/6335-h/images/fig05.jpg

I think Bolshemys R1b-P297 looks like older than Afanasievo’s, b/c radiocarbon gave a date as early as 3,000bc on afanasievo remians.
Moreover, Boshemys culture seems to belong to Northern Eurasian anthropological formation like Ust-Tartas culture, being related with Okunevo also.

Even if the russian site explains that they were mixed people of mongoloid and caucasian, I think they would be intermediary between mongoloid and caucasian as mentioned before.



this Borreby you post is the paradigm which gave its name to the "type"; it's my "B-borreby', with something more akin to the 'brünn-capelle' phylum - an other sub-brahcy types existed in Sth Scandinavia too, very different, more 'croma' with less brutal traits, lower skull but "fuller", more steepy frontal, broader jaw, smaller orbits, I think it has been found in Hvellinge or a name like that, not sure, it's my "B-borreby" (for what it's worth!) -
my post was a bet, I would have liked having the profile picture and look at the antero-posterior position of cheek-bones, not a drawing, not a reconstruction - but, yes, it's true, it could be the type of first N-E European foragers, as a whole closer to paleo-europoids, but with something vaguely 'mongoloid'; not a crossing, rather a less evolved (speaking of bones) pop - but all that is "it could be"... (sometimes I found that some Coreans could have inherited of this type at individual level, and some Amerindians too (not all,concerning features).The later 'mongoloid' input in Sth-Siberia at Bronze/Iron change was more marked and typical, and as a whole very different, skull and body included -

Arame
27-03-17, 09:50
Olympus

Bolshemys is this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolshemys_culture

johen
27-03-17, 21:25
Olympus

Bolshemys is this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolshemys_culture
do you think Bolshemys R1b could be a direct ancestor of afanasievo?

Arame
01-04-17, 10:30
Johen

No. Afanasievo came from Pontic Steppe. Bolshemys was a dead end.

Rethel
01-04-17, 13:00
....................................

MOESAN
02-04-17, 23:18
myself to myself (erratum)
...an other sub-brahcy types existed in Sth Scandinavia too, very different, more 'croma' with less brutal traits, lower skull but "fuller", more steepy frontal, broader jaw, smaller orbits, I think it has been found in Hvellinge or a name like that, not sure, it's my "B-borreby" (for what it's worth!) -
in fact, my "A-borreby" !!!
all the way these sub-brachy' types seem not older than about the 3000 BC in Denmark and do ressemble neither to the basis of the Steppic mix EHG/CHG nor to the precedent WHG - we have only our imagination without more data: 'alpine' input upon more "archaic" types? or a pop come from East through the South Finland/North Russia??? with some tiny pseudo 'east-asian' o rather 'siberian' input??? a tendancy towards light pigmentation in the forementioned area and the today rather light pigmentation of the types seems excluding the tempting 'alpine' input - a previously Y-Q pop? Uneasy to say. Crossings and isolation can produce so surprising phenotypes...

that said to come back to the thread, Afanasyevo did not come from Yamna pops, but rather both pops had a Central Asian pop common ancestors I think.-I wonder if R1a and R1b had not had tight and during enough contacts in East Steppes and North and shared since a long time a lot of females lineages; without speaking of their very ancient common origin - these clannic groups could have shared or exchanged a lot of females without breaking their so sacred male lineages.
concerning Eastern Scythians I'm not sure they originated in Altai; Altai was an edge of their vaste and maybe unstable territory where they met East Asian origin people come there since beginning of IA (or very LBA): a come back in Altai of East Asian previously expelled by Steppic tribes of West; Pazyryk culture is the result of their meating?

MOESAN
02-04-17, 23:22
Sorry I'm not clear - the hypothetic Y-Q I speak of would only be the rare males of the 'siberian' part of the complex group of these sub-brachy robust types if they really came from North-East Europe (to be proved) - all that is very hypothetic, a "loud voice brain storm" of mine.

PaleoRevenge
17-04-17, 03:32
Now we know why Tokharians spoke centum, genes. wow!