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bicicleur
03-03-17, 14:30
it's a good end of the week

after Altaïan and Estonian, now Scythian mtDNA

http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14615#t1

http://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/ncomms/2017/170303/ncomms14615/images/m685/ncomms14615-f2.jpg

http://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/ncomms/2017/170303/ncomms14615/images/m685/ncomms14615-f4.jpg
black is Scythian

http://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/ncomms/2017/170303/ncomms14615/images/m685/ncomms14615-f7.jpg

bicicleur
03-03-17, 15:29
http://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/ncomms/2017/170303/ncomms14615/images/m685/ncomms14615-f3.jpg

this is the most interesting conclusion :
multiregional model is prefered, although western model can't be excluded

Scythian uniformity through cultural exchanges

and eastern Scythian continuity into Turkic tribes

Angela
03-03-17, 15:48
it's a good end of the week

after Altaïan and Estonian, now Scythian mtDNA

http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14615#t1

http://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/ncomms/2017/170303/ncomms14615/images/m685/ncomms14615-f2.jpg

http://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/ncomms/2017/170303/ncomms14615/images/m685/ncomms14615-f4.jpg
black is Scythian

http://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/ncomms/2017/170303/ncomms14615/images/m685/ncomms14615-f7.jpg

It seems that the percent of "Caucasus" here is similar to the Haak/Lazaridis model, and they find it all the way back in Samara_Eneolithic, although it increased by the time of Yamnaya and Poltavka.

LeBrok
03-03-17, 17:00
I have kits of 3 IA Steppe guys. Do we have more in GedMatch?













M348213
i0247

F999969
Rise607

F999965
Rise902


scythian


Altai, Russia, Verh-Uimon,
2kya

Russia, Sary-Bel, Kytmanovo Altai
2kya


Run time
11.07

Run time
11.91

Run time
9.23


S-Indian
0.67

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
0.92


Baloch
24.99

Baloch
18.57

Baloch
19.12


Caucasian
7.68

Caucasian
1.12

Caucasian
7.36


NE-Euro
45.27

NE-Euro
29.87

NE-Euro
32.39


SE-Asian
0.83

SE-Asian
0.97

SE-Asian
0.28


Siberian
6.39

Siberian
20.18

Siberian
22.17


NE-Asian
1.31

NE-Asian
11.59

NE-Asian
6.52


Papuan
-

Papuan
1.39

Papuan
-


American
2.85

American
4.06

American
4.3


Beringian
1.40

Beringian
5.05

Beringian
4.25


Mediterranean
8.62

Mediterranean
6.6

Mediterranean
1.18


SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-


San
-

San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
-

W-African
0.59

W-African
1.52



Anybody knows where is the Scythian sample from and how old it is?
Do we have Pazyryk kit?

Angela
03-03-17, 22:01
Tweet from Iosif Lazaridis:

"The Scythians of the eastern steppe were seemingly derived from Yamnaya and East Eurasian ancestors And not from temporally closer Sintashta/Andronovo populations that carried EEF ancestry Similar to present-day South Asians who are best modelled with Early/Middle Bronze Age steppe not Andronovo/Sintashta."

holderlin
03-03-17, 23:38
The same was said about ANI as well. That it's from Yamnaya, not the latter steppe cultures.

*EDIT* my comment was contained in Angela's tweet quote.

We have early Yamnaya expansion evidence all over the place. This is really interesting.

johen
04-03-17, 00:05
Tweet from Iosif Lazaridis:

"The Scythians of the eastern steppe were seemingly derived from Yamnaya and East Eurasian ancestors And not from temporally closer Sintashta/Andronovo populations that carried EEF ancestry Similar to present-day South Asians who are best modelled with Early/Middle Bronze Age steppe not Andronovo/Sintashta."

I think she said it on the condition that okunevo and karasuk also have an admixture of yamna and east Eurasian. However, okunevo people was directly connected to malta, being more archaic than yamna/ afanasievo people.
https://s31.postimg.org/5qn0sb09n/Capture2.png

We should consider anthropoly and archaeology also,
Actually east scythian was related with raindeer people.
see this scythian artifact, which the horse wore at that time.
http://875357559f655c0fd9842374.eventingnation.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/hermitagepazyryk34a.jpg
http://siberiantimes.com/PICTURES/FEATURES/CULTURE/PRINCESS-UKOK/tattoo%20on%20hand%20and%20with%20a%20drawing%20of %20dear.jpg

Of course, they were related with afanasievo culture in Altai, b/c scythian elite had elomgated skulls like afanasievo's. We can ask another question of whether the afanasievo was an elite group.

But anthropologically they resemble Okunevo and karasuks.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33566-Was-Afontova-Gora-an-ancestor-of-Afanasievo-yamna-or-not (post #18)
Moreover, I think the east scythian genetic admixture is close to okunevo and karasuk than yamna/ afanasievo.

bicicleur
04-03-17, 08:37
Tweet from Iosif Lazaridis:

"The Scythians of the eastern steppe were seemingly derived from Yamnaya and East Eurasian ancestors And not from temporally closer Sintashta/Andronovo populations that carried EEF ancestry Similar to present-day South Asians who are best modelled with Early/Middle Bronze Age steppe not Andronovo/Sintashta."


the Yamnayans were ousted from the steppe by Sintashta, but some pockets of eastern Yamna must have survived here and there
actually full Yamnayans, not just some Yamna DNA diluted into Sintashta DNA
hence R1b-Z2103 still surviving today
hence Tochars found in the Tarim basin
maybe eastern Scythians originated in some remote Altaï valley from a lost Yamna tribe
if I recall well, the Pazyrik were one of the oldest Scythians found

holderlin
04-03-17, 21:54
Wait a minute here. Look at the early Sarmatian samples. They look like Andronovo/Srubnaya with some Siberian, so Iranian speaking steppe are descended from both Yamnaya and latter steppe.

In other words Indo-Iranian has surely been spoken on the steppe since Yamnaya.

LeBrok
04-03-17, 23:35
If it comes to admixtures. A case could be made that Scythian was made by 70% Andronovo, 15% of some Siberian population (which we don't have sample yet), and 15% Iranian Neolithic. Iranian Neolithic, could be actually something similar, offshoot of Iranian Farmers, who lived in BMAC. Andronovo had very intense contact with BMAC farmers.




0.7


0.15


0.15








M608028
RISE505




M937770
I1671

Model Scytian

M348213
i0247


Andronovo

Unknown Siberian

Iran Late Neolithic 7,000



scythian



Run time
13.24

Run time
0

Run time
5.12

Run time


Run time
11.07


S-Indian
0.54

S-Indian
0

S-Indian
2.64

S-Indian
0.77

S-Indian
0.67


Baloch
21.23

Baloch
5

Baloch
56.25

Baloch
24.05

Baloch
24.99


Caucasian
2.4

Caucasian
0

Caucasian
32.91

Caucasian
6.62

Caucasian
7.68


NE-Euro
56.39

NE-Euro
36

NE-Euro
0

NE-Euro
44.87

NE-Euro
45.27


SE-Asian
0

SE-Asian
0

SE-Asian
0

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
0.83


Siberian
1.93

Siberian
35

Siberian
0

Siberian
6.60

Siberian
6.39


NE-Asian
0

NE-Asian
6

NE-Asian
0

NE-Asian
0.90

NE-Asian
1.31


Papuan
0

Papuan
0

Papuan
0

Papuan
-

Papuan
-


American
1.05

American
14

American
0

American
2.84

American
2.85


Beringian
1.22

Beringian
4

Beringian
0

Beringian
1.45

Beringian
1.4


Mediterranean
14.37

Mediterranean
0

Mediterranean
0

Mediterranean
10.06

Mediterranean
8.62


SW-Asian
0

SW-Asian
0

SW-Asian
8

SW-Asian
1.20

SW-Asian
-


San
0

San
0

San
0

San
-

San
-


E-African
0

E-African
0

E-African
0

E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
0.06

Pygmy
0

Pygmy
0.21

Pygmy
0.07

Pygmy
-


W-African
0.81

W-African
0

W-African
0

W-African
0.57

W-African
-

Alan
05-03-17, 02:13
Wait a minute here. Look at the early Sarmatian samples. They look like Andronovo/Srubnaya with some Siberian, so Iranian speaking steppe are descended from both Yamnaya and latter steppe.

In other words Indo-Iranian has surely been spoken on the steppe since Yamnaya.

I have posted some comments about this on Eurogenes.

I will copy-paste them here.


The appearance of the Turkic language is very recent but the genetic signature of them is more ancient and goes far into early Iron Age. Simply because allot of the Western Turkic groups are basically turkified Iranic tribes.

Take a note, the article even states the Eastern Scythians were most similar to Kipchaks. Kipchaks are amnong the most West Eurasian like groups among Turkic speakers infact since decades scientist argue that Kipchaks are basically turkified Scythians.

Also interesting how the study points out most genetic similarity to Central Asians and Caucasians for West Scythians which again proves my point that when most Indo_Iranian tribes emerged they were already heavily mixed with more CHG/Iran_Neo like groups from cultures like the BMAC. In fact the origin of the Scythians seems to be the southern parts of the Andronovo culture close to Yaz culture. Thats also where Greek sources point to where Scythians came from. It's pity that they have no Anatolian_Neo sample to compare with. Some of "WHG" in Iron AGE Adygei and Russia is most likely Anatolian_Neo derived.

Also the study pretty much confirmed by we all should know. Scythians were basically West Eurasian with some East Eurasian admixture towards the East. And they appear like one uniform group debunking allot of biased theories about their origin being mixed or them being some kind of multi-culti group mixed of Iranics, Uralics, Turkics, Slavs. The opposite is the case they have been absorbed by some Turkics, Uralics, and Slavs but their origin is clear visibly Iranic.


The paper is bad in expressing itself but it basically confirms that the whole Steppe was quite homogenous(relative for such a huge territory) what can be explained with the uniformity of their material culture. Uniformity of material culture => one culture => one people. If they were a multi-culti groups they would not have a uniform culture. They simply had the typical neighboring admixtures that you would expect to get through contact.

also striking that the paper actually says that the Eastern Scythians resembled Kipchaks while today these guys live in the Western Steppes near the Caucasus. Whle the Western Scythians resembled Caucasians and Central Asians. Just shows you how much the Steppes have shifted towards East Eurasian DNA throughout the time. Which is also confirmed by the paper and as we all know by historic accounts.

Alan
05-03-17, 02:14
The Scythians themselves would be derived from a Srubnaya like culture. Infact East Iranic tribes as a whole show more genetic similarities to Srubna/Yaz culture than Andronovo or Sintashta. We need to change our understanding of Indo_Iranians. Since years I have been arguing that the Indo_Iranians do not derive from one single culture (Sintashta) but a network/complex of cultures. Sintashta/Andronovo seem to be early reflections of some very ancient nowadays extinct Indo_Iranian branches. The Srubna and/or Yaz culture seem to be the origin of most East Iranic branches while West Iranic branches seem to have evolved out of a merging of Yaz and Kura Araxes elements.

And yet again another kick in the teeth of people still claiming Ossetians are "Iranified Caucasians". Once again I have been arguing with people that I expect that the R1b and G2a in Ossetians is Sarmatian derived but these people have always stubbornly and simplisticly been saying Sarmatians=R1a therefore Ossetians = Caucasian language shifters.

But from the data we have collected so far the Sarmatians and, their subbranch, the Alans belonged to various Haplogroups such as G2a, R1a, J1, R1b, J2.



Note a Sarmatian sample turned out with yDNA R1b.

Alan
05-03-17, 02:17
The paper basically speaks of Yamnaya like ancestry with East Asian admixture.

The fact that all the Scythic groups had some East Eurasian ancestry also points to an more Eastern point of origin for the Scythic groups which is in the southern parts of Andronovo complex close to Yaz culture as pointed out by ancient Greeks.

And bout the figure 7 The light blue component seems to be a West and East Eurasian mixed component modeled after modern Central Asians.


According to the study West Scythian ancestry is strongest in groups from the Caucasus, West Asia and some East Europeans. From their samples Azeris, Iranians, Adygei, Lezgians and some other group from Russia share most with the West Scythians. While East Scythians look most similar to Tajiks, Kipchaks and Uzbeks.

Boreas
05-03-17, 07:40
I have posted some comments about this on Eurogenes.

I will copy-paste them here.

"Simply because allot of the Western Turkic groups are basically turkified Iranic tribes. "

Thanks god, some truth...

Arame
05-03-17, 08:54
Alan

It seems You were correct when You where saying that Sintashta was a dead end.

Btw that R1b belongs to Yamna/Poltavka Z2108 lineage. I suppose in Iran there will be a lot off it today. Unfortunatly Iran is not well sampled.

MarkoZ
05-03-17, 09:26
Sintashta was a dead end.


As an aside, this is also what Gramkelidze, Ivanov & Grigoryev (the latter of whom wrote a huge tome on Sintashta-Arkaim) stated decades ago. I never knew what to make of it.

Hauteville
05-03-17, 10:52
Do they carried R1a Z94?I've read about Sarmatians:

In a study conducted in 2014 by Gennady Afanasiev et al. on bone fragments from 10 Alanic burials on the Don River, DNA could be extracted from a total of 7. [clarification needed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_clarify)][23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians#cite_note-23)[clarification needed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_clarify)]
In 2015, the Institute of Archaeology in Moscow conducted research on various Sarmato-Alan and Saltovo-Mayaki culture Kurgan burials. In these analyses, the two Alan samples from the 4th to 6th century AD turned out to belong to yDNA haplogroups G2a-P15 and R1a-z94, while two of the three Sarmatian samples from the 2nd to 3rd century AD were found to belong to yDNA haplogroup J1-M267 while one belonged to R1a.[24] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians#cite_note-24) Three Saltovo-Mayaki samples from the 8th to 9th century AD turned out to have yDNA corresponding to haplogroups G, J2a-M410 and R1a-z94

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians#Genetics

Alan
05-03-17, 14:59
As an aside, this is also what Gramkelidze, Ivanov & Grigoryev (the latter of whom wrote a huge tome on Sintashta-Arkaim) stated decades ago. I never knew what to make of it.

Didn't knew that already Gramkelidze, Ivanov and co were saying the same. But Sintashta looks like a dead end, maybe playing some role for modern Indo_Aryans culturally or they were related to Indo_Aryans since their costumes were similar going by the Veda. However the genetic signature of Indo_Aryans points to an more Iran_Neo than Anatolian_Neo like contribution. Which is the reason why Lazaridis says a Yamnaya like group being the origin for the admixture in South_Central Asia makes more. Therefore Sintashta seems to be some early extension of an Indo_Iranian culture that died out for most.

Angela
05-03-17, 15:31
Didn't knew that already Gramkelidze, Ivanov and co were saying the same. But Sintashta looks like an dead end, maybe playing some role for modern Indo_Aryans culturally or they were related to Indo_Aryans since their costumes were similar going by the Veda. However the genetic signature of Indo_Aryans points to an more Iran_Neo l than Anatolian_Neo like oontribution. Which is the reason why Lazaridis says a Yamnaya like group being the origin for the admixture in South_Central Asia makes more. Therefore Sintashta seems to be some early extension of an Indo_Iranian culture that died out for most.

I agree that it seems like a dead end, the Andronovo horizon as a whole perhaps, which is ironic given the time and energy that was expended trying to create fits for India using them.

http://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/ncomms/2017/170303/ncomms14615/images/m685/ncomms14615-f7.jpg

This is what ADMIXTURE looks like when you know how to use it, i.e. you go from the actual ancient genome, i.e. CHG, not like that strange Willerslev group run.

Fwiw, we had some arguments about Gramkelidze here on this site where I said that there was a lot in his work which needed to be considered, but it wasn't a very popular idea with anyone but me.

Interesting that the eastern Scythians are closest to modern Kipchaks, and western Scythians to people of the Caucasus.

I think some people may have missed that Lazaridis is one of the authors of this study.

bicicleur
05-03-17, 15:57
in this admixture graph Andronovo looks like lost in BA Altaï and Scythian
but Indian anciant DNA is lacking to judge the situation over there, same for Iranian Medes & Persians

Alan
05-03-17, 16:52
Remember my map? Remember my thread? a Few people were making fun of it, but who laughs the last now?
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30706-Europe-West-and-South_Central-Asia-and-the-unnatural-gap

It is almost like if I had the ancient DNA at hand when I made this.

http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/mds1600fcpt4eo1s3.png

I knew Sarmatians would close with Caucasus groups but more Northern shifted towards East Europe. In fact it seems some Sarmatian groups even overlap with Caucasus tribes and some of them likely overlap as far south as almost reaching modern Kurdish or North Iranian aDNA.


We should also note that allot of what the scientists of this paper consider as "West Scythian" are in fact Sarmatians. This is why they come to the conclusion that both groups have similar but yet different point of origin. It should be well known by now that Sarmatians were related but not descend from Scythians.

Alan
05-03-17, 17:01
I agree that it seems like a dead end, the Andronovo horizon as a whole perhaps, which is ironic given the time and energy that was expended trying to create fits for India using them.

http://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/ncomms/2017/170303/ncomms14615/images/m685/ncomms14615-f7.jpg

This is what ADMIXTURE looks like when you know how to use it, i.e. you go from the actual ancient genome, i.e. CHG, not like that strange Willerslev group run.

Fwiw, we had some arguments about Gramkelidze here on this site where I said that there was a lot in his work which needed to be considered, but it wasn't a very popular idea with anyone but me.

Interesting that the eastern Scythians are closest to modern Kipchaks, and western Scythians to people of the Caucasus.

I think some people may have missed that Lazaridis is one of the authors of this study.

We should also take into account that the light blue component in the graph is neither completely West nor East Eurasian. It seems they have modeled it after Bronze Age Altains or even modern Central Asians, this is why no proxy population for it is visible on the graph. It is extremely unlikely that Iron Age Adygei or Russia was so heavy in East Eurasian admixture. If we assume the light blue is modeled after the regions mentioned above, this makes it roughly ~40-50% West Eurasian and 50-60% East Eurasian. That would make Russia_IA (what I assume is East Scythian) around ~15% East Eurasian and would explain why Kipchak and Tajiks/Uzbeks (all of them having around 10-25% East Eurasian DNA) the closest match.

Payzyrk is the most East Eurasian shifted one with around ~40% East Eurasian aDNA.

Angela
05-03-17, 17:04
in this admixture graph Andronovo looks like lost in BA Altaï and Scythian
but Indian anciant DNA is lacking to judge the situation over there, same for Iranian Medes & Persians

Sorry, Bicicleur, I don't know what the bolded part means.

I agree that we can't come to any real conclusions until we have that big Caucasus paper and the Harappa genes and other Indian dna. However, given that Lazaridis and Reich are authors here, and the Reich Lab is producing that big Caucasus/Central Asian paper, perhaps we can be excused for seeing the paper and the tweet as hints of things to come.

johen
05-03-17, 17:30
Do they carried R1a Z94?I've read about Sarmatians:




The Late Scythian population considered in this study proved to be genetically homogeneous, although some connections with the Sarmatians were found. We also revealed similarities between the Scythian groups and the local Bronze Age population of the Srubnaya culture, as well as, to a lesser extent, a group representative of the Central Asian Bronze Age Okunevo culture.
-srubna cranial series are exteremly close to Afanasievo, not yamna.

- Mixing all type of women, I think, Central asian nomad cherished and kept their culture, thousand and thousand years. Nomad people’s hair mode was their pride, which has been continued from Indo-Aryan, scythian, samathian and Hun. Mongol also did this culture. It is not important for their bodies just to be changed by mixing with east asian. The important thing is their royal Hg is R and Q, keeping ANE tradition of shamanism. The basic philosophy of the shamanism is that the human was produced from father sky and mother earth. So they tried not to cultivate the earth of mother.

sarmatian crown
http://web.archive.org/web/20160707193243im_/http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_HttD63H2mf4/TCGh-I9EwXI/AAAAAAAACAs/T3FwzG_75Mo/s1600/220px-Sarmatian_crown.jpg

central asian shaman's
http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/gg489/pihkiksen/ket/ketshaman_zps4a3b4c9a.jpg
sarmatian Kazakhstan, 1st century
http://dostoyanieplaneti.ru/media/k2/galleries/4149/67576576.jpg

-keep in mind that the scythians were also cromagnon type or paleo-europoid type.


Paleo
race ( paleo type , proto-European type ( race ), the northern race , severoevropeoidny type , kromanidny type) is characterized by a massive face , brahikefaliey (http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/ruwiki/820767) , large ( acting ) nose , massive physique ,svetlopigmentirovannostyu ( that is, hair , eyes , skin .). [3] (http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/ruwiki/668438#cite_note-2) The origin of the type associated with the Cro-Magnon, [4] (http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/ruwiki/668438#cite_note-3)[5] (http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/ruwiki/668438#cite_note-4) are typical representatives of this race were representatives Afanasiev archaeological culture (III - beginning of IIthousand. BC. E.), Tagar culture (VIII - IIIcenturies. BC. E .), Andronovo culture ( 2300 to n . e -. 1000 to the n . e ),the pit culture ( 3600 - 2300 up to n . e ). carcass cultures ( 1700 - 1200 cc . to n . Oe .), the Scythian populationPazyryk culture
http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/ruwiki/668438

bicicleur
05-03-17, 17:31
sorry, I didn't express that clear
in Karasuk, Okunevo, Scythian the EEF-like component is practicaly gone
as it is present in the Andronovo horizon, Karasuk, Okunevo, Scythian seem not to be derived from Andronovo but from the Yamna horizon which didn't have EEF

do you know when we could expect the Caucasus & Harappa paper?
and then, I'm also awaiting the Bell Beaker paper ..

Angela
05-03-17, 18:04
sorry, I didn't express that clear
in Karasuk, Okunevo, Scythian the EEF-like component is practicaly gone
as it is present in the Andronovo horizon, Karasuk, Okunevo, Scythian seem not to be derived from Andronovo but from the Yamna horizon which didn't have EEF

do you know when we could expect the Caucasus & Harappa paper?
and then, I'm also awaiting the Bell Beaker paper ..

Ok, thanks for the clarification. I also think that's what the ancient dna is showing.

No, I don't know when the Reich Lab is going to post the Caucasus and Bell Beaker papers. I have no "inside" access; I'm just reading the "hints" that are in the public domain. My "predictions", when I make them, are always "real" predictions, not inside access of some kind masquerading as a "prediction". That's why they're sometimes wrong. :)

As for the "Harappa" paper, maybe the next century? :)

Arame
06-03-17, 09:17
As an aside, this is also what Gramkelidze, Ivanov & Grigoryev (the latter of whom wrote a huge tome on Sintashta-Arkaim) stated decades ago. I never knew what to make of it.

Yes.
Anyway overall the origins of Indo Iranian can't change much, because Z645 is found in CWC.
So r1a Z93 has East European origin almost certainly.

bicicleur
06-03-17, 09:51
Ok, thanks for the clarification. I also think that's what the ancient dna is showing.


yes, but again, the Y-DNA is showing a different story
afaik Scythian Y-DNA has mostly R1a-Z93 and no R1b-M269

it is not a straightforward story

Alan
06-03-17, 14:53
Yes.
Anyway overall the origins of Indo Iranian can't change much, because Z645 is found in CWC.
So r1a Z93 has East European origin almost certainly.

I disagree. the genetic signature we have found in real Indo_Iranians so far differ from CW in having little to none EEF.

It looks more like CWC and Indo_Iranians might share one common ancestor in a prior culture.

Angela
06-03-17, 15:50
I disagree. the genetic signature we have found in real Indo_Iranians so far differ from CW in having little to none EEF.

It looks more like CWC and Indo_Iranians might share one common ancestor in a prior culture.

I think that may be true. I do wonder, as Bicicleur pointed out, about the difference in yDna. It might be, I suppose, that there is R1a in the steppe west of the Yamnaya samples we have so far. Or, the common ancestor(s) may have come from elsewhere.

Alan
06-03-17, 23:30
I think that may be true. I do wonder, as Bicicleur pointed out, about the difference in yDna. It might be, I suppose, that there is R1a in the steppe west of the Yamnaya samples we have so far. Or, the common ancestor(s) may have come from elsewhere.

tbh looking at the aDNA of Steppe Iranics who do have additional Iran_CHL_Neo DNA. I have a theory this somewhere else could be closer to the Caucasus, maybe even in the Caucasus or Northeast Iran/Central Asia. There were some users with the idea that R1a and R1b might turn up in Maykop or Layla Tepe culture.

bicicleur
07-03-17, 10:11
here is the Y-DNA :



I0575 Early Sarmatian 500–100 R1b1a1a2a2c1-Y21707* calls (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0575/)


I0577 Aldy-Bel 700–500 R1a1a1b2a2-YP1456* calls (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0577/)


I0563 Pazyryk 400–200 R1a1a1b2a2-S23201* calls (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0563/)


IS2 Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 Q1a2a1c1-L332* calls (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-is2/)



https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017/03/07/y-snp-calls-for-scythians-and-sarmatians/

Y-DNA of eastern Scythian points to Andronovo & common ancestors with Native Americans
Y-DNA of western Scythian points to eastern Yamna

MarkoZ
07-03-17, 14:38
I agree that it seems like a dead end, the Andronovo horizon as a whole perhaps, which is ironic given the time and energy that was expended trying to create fits for India using them.

Rumors are that Arkaim is a popular pilgrimage site for Russian neopagans; hippie-nazis from all around the country travel there to hold summer solstices celebrations. They even have their very own racist high priestess in the vein of Savitri Devi & Blavatsky whose name eludes me right now. She declared Arkaim to be the 'city of Aryan superiority and racial purity' or some such.

Apparently the site once held sign that read 'Birthplace of Zarathustra', whom the neopagans saw as a 'Russian warrior monk' :laughing:

EDIT: found the source - http://legacy.earlham.edu/~schwael/Arkaim.pdf

bicicleur
07-03-17, 15:17
Rumors are that Arkaim is a popular pilgrimage site for Russian neopagans; hippie-nazis from all around the country travel there to hold summer solstices celebrations. They even have their very own racist high priestess in the vein of Savitri Devi & Blavatsky whose name eludes me right now. She declared Arkaim to be the 'city of Aryan superiority and racial purity' or some such.

Apparently the site once held sign that read 'Birthplace of Zarathustra', whom the neopagans saw as a 'Russian warrior monk' :laughing:

is this an atempt to minimise Sintashta ?
is David Anthony a hippie-nazi ?

MarkoZ
07-03-17, 15:52
is this an atempt to minimise Sintashta ?

I think genetic evidence has already done that for me. Mind you, considering that Sintashta sticks out like a sore thumb on the steppe due to its comparative development I did not actually expect that.

This is amusing to me, because a great many people had high hopes when it comes that particular culture. The above is merely one of the absurdest examples thereof.


is David Anthony a hippie-nazi ?

I don't know, but you don't have to be a hippie-nazi to be wrong.

bicicleur
07-03-17, 16:51
I think genetic evidence has already done that for me. Mind you, considering that Sintashta sticks out like a sore thumb on the steppe due to its comparative development I did not actually expect that.

This is amusing to me, because a great many people had high hopes when it comes that particular culture. The above is merely one of the absurdest examples thereof.



I don't know, but you don't have to be a hippie-nazi to be wrong.

as I pointed out above, Y-DNA and autosomal point out in a different direction in this case, so I don't want to take quick decisions here

maybe this will complicate things even more, still have to read this :

http://www.nature.com/articles/srep43950

Diverse origin of mitochondrial lineages in Iron Age Black Sea Scythians

bicicleur
07-03-17, 20:13
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017/03/07/phenotype-snps-for-scythians-and-sarmatians/

I find it dificult to make a synthesis of all this.

Phenotype SNPs for Scythians and SarmatiansPosted on March 7, 2017 (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017/03/07/phenotype-snps-for-scythians-and-sarmatians/) by Genetiker (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/author/genetiker/) — Leave a comment (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017/03/07/phenotype-snps-for-scythians-and-sarmatians/#respond)
Below are derived allele counts and total numbers of reads for SNPs that have a large effect on phenotype for eight Scythian and Sarmatian genomes. Nonzero derived allele counts are in bold. Note that small derived allele counts may be due to DNA damage.
ASIP, rs6058017, Veddoid brown skin
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 2/2
EDAR, rs3827760, Mongoloid teeth, hair, etc.
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0575 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0574 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 4/4
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 2/6
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 3/3
IS2 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 0/1
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 15/34
IRF4, rs12203592, light hair and eyes, freckling
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/3
I0576 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/2
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/20
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/3
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 3/32
KITLG, rs12821256, blond hair
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0575 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/1
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/10
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 1/22
KITLG, rs642742, Veddoid brown skin
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/2
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 4/4
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 1/2
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 14/15
MC1R, rs1110400, red hair
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0574 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/11
I0576 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/1
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/11
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/6
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 0/35
MC1R, rs11547464, red hair
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0575 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/2
I0574 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/11
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 1/15
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/7
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 0/35
MC1R, rs1805005, blond hair, fair skin
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0575 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/2
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/3
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/3
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/1
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 0/24
MC1R, rs1805006, red hair, fair skin
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/7
I0576 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/1
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/15
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/5
IS2 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 0/1
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 1/35
MC1R, rs1805007, red hair, fair skin
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0575 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0574 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/11
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/13
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/7
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 0/37
MC1R, rs1805008, red hair, fair skin
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0574 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/7
I0576 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/1
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/9
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/5
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 1/33
MC1R, rs1805009, red hair, fair skin
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0575 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/16
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/22
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/6
IS2 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 0/1
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 0/32
MCM6, rs182549, ability to digest milk
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/1
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/2
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/1
MCM6, rs4988235, ability to digest milk
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0575 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/9
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/18
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 4/32
OCA2, rs1800407, green or hazel eyes
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0575 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/5
I0576 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/1
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/11
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 0/30
OCA2, rs1800414, Mongoloid light skin
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0574 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/2
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/9
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/1
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 0/21
OCA2/HERC2, rs12913832, blue eyes
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0575 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0574 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/4
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 8/10
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 2/4
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 4/12
SLC24A5, rs1426654, Caucasoid light skin
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 4/4
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 25/26
SLC45A2, rs16891982, Caucasoid light skin
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0575 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 4/4
I0574 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 6/6
I0576 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/1
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/25
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/2
IS2 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 1/1
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 3/20
TYR, rs1042602, light skin, absence of freckles
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0575 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0574 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/2
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 7/15
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/3
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 5/21
TYR, rs1393350, blond hair, blue eyes
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0575 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/2
I0574 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/2
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/16
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/3
TYRP1, rs2733831, light hair and eyes
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0574 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1

Angela
07-03-17, 20:31
Rumors are that Arkaim is a popular pilgrimage site for Russian neopagans; hippie-nazis from all around the country travel there to hold summer solstices celebrations. They even have their very own racist high priestess in the vein of Savitri Devi & Blavatsky whose name eludes me right now. She declared Arkaim to be the 'city of Aryan superiority and racial purity' or some such.

Apparently the site once held sign that read 'Birthplace of Zarathustra', whom the neopagans saw as a 'Russian warrior monk' :laughing:

EDIT: found the source - http://legacy.earlham.edu/~schwael/Arkaim.pdf

I figured there was something like this behind the obsession to show descent everywhere from Sintashta and then back to Corded Ware and Eastern Europe. I just didn't know some of it was this crazy. It reminds me of the milk drinking Neo-nazis here: that's a hoot too. I really think someone should put up posters of all the milk drinking populations of the world, as I suggested here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33568-White-nationalists-choose-milk-as-their-signature-drink?highlight=milk+drinking

Maybe I wouldn't say "hippie" Nazis, although I understand why you chose that word. It's more "druggie" Nazis, perhaps? That also might explain how much delight there is in some quarters over the fact that the Indo-Europeans consumed and traded cannabis. I don't see as much delight about some of their perhaps "homo-erotic" traditions. Still, maybe "hippie-Nazis" is best. Lots of promiscuity I'm sure at those gatherings, virtual petri dishes of venereal diseases, like Woodstock and Haight-Ashbury.

Amazing, this is what they're replacing Christianity with, is it? Just like Nazism etc. That "Jewish" religion, with it's Semitic demi-god and Apostles and ten commandments just has to go. :)

Angela
07-03-17, 21:01
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017/03/07/phenotype-snps-for-scythians-and-sarmatians/

I find it dificult to make a synthesis of all this.

Phenotype SNPs for Scythians and Sarmatians

Posted on March 7, 2017 (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017/03/07/phenotype-snps-for-scythians-and-sarmatians/) by Genetiker (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/author/genetiker/) — Leave a comment (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017/03/07/phenotype-snps-for-scythians-and-sarmatians/#respond)
Below are derived allele counts and total numbers of reads for SNPs that have a large effect on phenotype for eight Scythian and Sarmatian genomes. Nonzero derived allele counts are in bold. Note that small derived allele counts may be due to DNA damage.
ASIP, rs6058017, Veddoid brown skin
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 2/2
EDAR, rs3827760, Mongoloid teeth, hair, etc.
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0575 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0574 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 4/4
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 2/6
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 3/3
IS2 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 0/1
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 15/34
IRF4, rs12203592, light hair and eyes, freckling
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/3
I0576 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/2
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/20
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/3
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 3/32
KITLG, rs12821256, blond hair
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0575 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/1
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/10
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 1/22
KITLG, rs642742, Veddoid brown skin
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/2
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 4/4
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 1/2
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 14/15
MC1R, rs1110400, red hair
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0574 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/11
I0576 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/1
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/11
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/6
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 0/35
MC1R, rs11547464, red hair
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0575 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/2
I0574 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/11
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 1/15
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/7
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 0/35
MC1R, rs1805005, blond hair, fair skin
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0575 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/2
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/3
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/3
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/1
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 0/24
MC1R, rs1805006, red hair, fair skin
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/7
I0576 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/1
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/15
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/5
IS2 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 0/1
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 1/35
MC1R, rs1805007, red hair, fair skin
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0575 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0574 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/11
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/13
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/7
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 0/37
MC1R, rs1805008, red hair, fair skin
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0574 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/7
I0576 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/1
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/9
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/5
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 1/33
MC1R, rs1805009, red hair, fair skin
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0575 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/16
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/22
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/6
IS2 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 0/1
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 0/32
MCM6, rs182549, ability to digest milk
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/1
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/2
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/1
MCM6, rs4988235, ability to digest milk
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0575 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/9
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/18
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 4/32
OCA2, rs1800407, green or hazel eyes
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0575 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/5
I0576 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/1
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/11
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 0/30
OCA2, rs1800414, Mongoloid light skin
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0574 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/2
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/9
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/1
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 0/21
OCA2/HERC2, rs12913832, blue eyes
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0575 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0574 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/4
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 8/10
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 2/4
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 4/12
SLC24A5, rs1426654, Caucasoid light skin
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 4/4
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 25/26
SLC45A2, rs16891982, Caucasoid light skin
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0575 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 4/4
I0574 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 6/6
I0576 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/1
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/25
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/2
IS2 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 1/1
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 3/20
TYR, rs1042602, light skin, absence of freckles
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0575 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0574 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/2
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 7/15
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/3
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 5/21
TYR, rs1393350, blond hair, blue eyes
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0575 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/2
I0574 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/2
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/16
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/3
TYRP1, rs2733831, light hair and eyes
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0574 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1

I'm sorry, Bicicleur, I just think this kind of stuff confuses without illuminating, except perhaps for the EDAR stuff, which shouldn't be a surprise given the Siberian like/East Asian like admixture, whatever you want to call it.

You can't call a sample or a modern human's pigmentation based on individual derived snps. Pigmentation is a multi-genetic trait. You'd have to run each sample's total collection of them through one of the forensic programs to get a prediction. Has Genetiker done that? Until then, even if one assumes the calls are correct, they're not going to tell us their predicted coloring.

Just one example: he lists TYR rs1393350 as coding for blonde hair, blue eyes. Yes, it's a depigmentation snp in derived status. I carry it, in fact, but I have chestnut hair and brown eyes.

As for OCA2 snps connected to blue eye color, on some I'm ancestral, on some derived, and on some heterogeneous.

See what I mean?

If the eastern ones were closest to Kets, maybe like this:

http://sdld.narod.ru/img/gallery/Picture22.jpg


If the western ones were closest to Lezghins, Azeris, etc., maybe like this:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/4d/c9/ce/4dc9ce2c17db1c64b19c3633ce04fb10.jpg

http://s12.postimg.org/xz7i19ajx/Adyghe3.jpg

Not mounted Scandinavians...

bicicleur
07-03-17, 21:28
I'm sorry, Bicicleur, I just think this kind of stuff confuses without illuminating, except perhaps for the EDAR stuff, which shouldn't be a surprise given the Siberian like/East Asian like admixture, whatever you want to call it.

You can't call a sample or a modern human's pigmentation based on individual derived snps. Pigmentation is a multi-genetic trait. You'd have to run each sample's total collection of them through one of the forensic programs to get a prediction. Has Genetiker done that? Until then, even if one assumes the calls are correct, they're not going to tell us their predicted coloring.

Just one example: he lists TYR rs1393350 as coding for blonde hair, blue eyes. Yes, it's a depigmentation snp in derived status. I carry it, in fact, but I have chestnut hair and brown eyes.

As for OCA2 snps connected to blue eye color, on some I'm ancestral, on some derived, and on some heterogeneous.

See what I mean?

that is what I tought
the final look is influenced by a multitude of genes
if I understand correct, you say forensic programs exist based on the total collection of genes
but has such program ever been used for any anciant DNA sample?
if the DNA is incomplete, I guess you'll get skewed results

Angela
07-03-17, 21:40
that is what I tought
the final look is influenced by a multitude of genes
if I understand correct, you say forensic programs exist based on the total collection of genes
but has such program ever been used for any anciant DNA sample?
if the DNA is incomplete, I guess you'll get skewed results

That's true, but it's still better than just trying to draw some conclusion from individual snps.

From what I remember, Lazaridis almost always used to use those forensic predictors. Maybe it's frowned upon now.

bicicleur
07-03-17, 22:44
That's true, but it's still better than just trying to draw some conclusion from individual snps.

From what I remember, Lazaridis almost always used to use those forensic predictors. Maybe it's frowned upon now.

ok, but when Latvian and/or Estonian traits in aDNA were discussed on another thread here recently, it was about individual SNP's ?

Alan
08-03-17, 01:02
as I pointed out above, Y-DNA and autosomal point out in a different direction in this case, so I don't want to take quick decisions here

maybe this will complicate things even more, still have to read this :

http://www.nature.com/articles/srep43950

Diverse origin of mitochondrial lineages in Iron Age Black Sea Scythians

The Steppes was always like "winner takes all" so yDNA doesn't tell the whole story. You have cultures almost exclusively dominated by one single subbranch of an Haplogroup than you have in later periods suddenly more diversity and just few centuries later it's one homogenous bunch again. The thing is no matter which Indo_Iranian group you take they all prefer Srubna, Iran_CHL, Kura Araxes and even Yamnaya over Sintashta. The best we can do in Sintashta point of view, is that it can be used as one admixture component but never the ultimate origin. Some Indo_Iranic tribes look like a mix of Srubna, Kura Araxe/Iran_CHL and Sintashta/Andronovo.

As I wrote above, Sintashta looks like a dead end at best it can be described as one component among other, but never does it look like even a single modern Indo_Iranic group has it's origin ultimately in Sintashta.

Alan
08-03-17, 01:46
I'm sorry, Bicicleur, I just think this kind of stuff confuses without illuminating, except perhaps for the EDAR stuff, which shouldn't be a surprise given the Siberian like/East Asian like admixture, whatever you want to call it.

You can't call a sample or a modern human's pigmentation based on individual derived snps. Pigmentation is a multi-genetic trait. You'd have to run each sample's total collection of them through one of the forensic programs to get a prediction. Has Genetiker done that? Until then, even if one assumes the calls are correct, they're not going to tell us their predicted coloring.

Just one example: he lists TYR rs1393350 as coding for blonde hair, blue eyes. Yes, it's a depigmentation snp in derived status. I carry it, in fact, but I have chestnut hair and brown eyes.

As for OCA2 snps connected to blue eye color, on some I'm ancestral, on some derived, and on some heterogeneous.

See what I mean?

If the eastern ones were closest to Kets, maybe like this:

http://sdld.narod.ru/img/gallery/Picture22.jpg


If the western ones were closest to Lezghins, Azeris, etc., maybe like this:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/4d/c9/ce/4dc9ce2c17db1c64b19c3633ce04fb10.jpg

http://s12.postimg.org/xz7i19ajx/Adyghe3.jpg

Not mounted Scandinavians...

The thing is even though West Scythians are closest to Adygei, Lezgians etc they are still slightly more Northern shifted. Like Adygai or Lezgians with 1 Russian grandparent. The same with the Eastern Scythians even the most Eastern once from the Pazyryk culture might cluster "closest" with Kets, that doesn't mean they were carbon copies of them, in fact even the Payzryk culture "Scythians" where allot more West Eurasian shifted than Kets. Their West Eurasian portion was around 50-60% thats what you find today among Kazakhs or Uzbeks. Krygyz for example are only ~25% West Eurasian Altains even less. Also we should have learned from the Yamnaya samples that no one should confuse aDNA admixture. with pigmentation. Lookng at Yamnaya they are genetically inbetween Caucasians and East Europeans BUT pigmentationwise they are like modern Anatolians, Mesopotamians or Iranians!

We know from ancient accounts that Scythians and Alans (Sarmatians) had quite a good chunk of Blonde people but I also said in the past they were definitely not Northeast European or Scandinavian blonde as those "hippie Nazis" as some call them expected them to be. I always said looking at their percentage of genes for light hair and eyes their pigmentation was more on level or something inbetween modern Central Europeans, North Caucasians and Balkanians. Tough even their light haired once would have looked like light haired modern Iranics than Slavs or Scandinavians. Just like a light haired British guy looks most of the time different from a light haired East European guy. So why would someone expect the blonde Steppe Iranics to look like modern British or East European blondes.

I know people don't like it but just as with Yamnaya once again I seem to be proven right.
How I imagine an light haired Scythian to have looked like is this.

light pigmented West Scythian like
http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/Others/Ramin.jpghttps://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1697009500/302040_143946939037988_133450636754285_193683_2120 412506_n.jpghttps://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQZZwB3MRSkRRJT6feCoyOQ1c7SSdCE5 E8InLp9BPYfI-wj5gxMcQ


light pigmented Sarmatian like
http://img.asemooni.com/bahram-radan.jpghttp://klassiker.welt.de/files/2015/05/valery-gergiev_1447457c.jpghttps://assets.mubi.com/images/film/39960/image-w1280.jpg?1445888648



light pigmented East Scythian like

Hepthalite, Sogdian like
https://i2.wp.com/www.burqasandbeer.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/pahuten-redhair.pnghttps://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTaBWQy4ZC3e48cTdTg3pjvd9skl1AFS ssM87TYViMDe4gtOSEKhttps://selfuni.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/kipchak.jpg


pazyryk like
http://www.pamirs.org/images/other_people/images/abdullo%20djavshangoz.jpg

Angela
08-03-17, 02:40
ok, but when Latvian and/or Estonian traits in aDNA were discussed on another thread here recently, it was about individual SNP's ?

To the best of my recollection, the question was raised as to where certain depigmentation snps arose, yes, not what these people looked like? Wait, no point in trying to remember it, I'll just look it up.

I believe this was the first mention of it.


Holderlin:Looks like Baltic WHG may have been more depigmented than EHG, on average. This might explain why the Steppe didn't show widespread depigmentation until after admixture with North and Central Europe.


Fire-Haired: I kind of agree. Some hunter gatherers and EEF farmers could have been pretty pale. Natural selection definitely played a part though.


Tomenable: It sounds like population replacement rather than natural selection "in situ" (among previous inhabitants).

In other words: a light-skinned, lactose-tolerant population invaded, replacing Neolithic/Mesolithic groups.

But some mixing with previous inhabitants also took place.

Then it was off to the races, of course.

I don't think I actually expressed an opinion as to what the Baltic samples looked like...you'd have to run them through a program to be sure.

That said, certain derived snps are given more weight in the programs. If someone has derived SLC24A5, SLC42A5, and TYR1 the odds are pretty good they're light skinned. If they have OCA2/HERC2 they're probably blue eyed. The only people who are likely to be blonde, blue-eyed and light skinned would have to have all of those plus more.

By that criteria, even in the Bronze Age people living in the Baltics were most probably not all blonde, blue-eyed and fair-skinned. I know I made the point more than once that it seems that the "sweep" in terms of the major depigmentation snps didn't really happen until at the earliest the end of the Bronze Age.

Of course, as we've said, there might be some deterioration in the samples.

Looking at the calls from Genetiker, these are some of those important snps:
OCA2/HERC2, rs12913832, blue eyes
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0575 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0574 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/4
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 8/10
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 2/4
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 4/12

SLC24A5, rs1426654, Caucasoid light skin
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 4/4
Ze6 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 25/26

SLC45A2, rs16891982, Caucasoid light skin
Sample Region Culture Date BC D/T
I0575 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 4/4
I0574 Western Early Sarmatian 500–100 0/1
I0577 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 6/6
I0576 Eastern Aldy-Bel 700–500 0/1
Ι0562 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/25
I0563 Eastern Pazyryk 400–200 0/2
IS2 Eastern Zevakino-Chilikta 900–600 1/1

Quickly scanning it, only one sample matches that criteria. Some of the snps he lists are sort of meaningless. KITLG, for example, is carried by everyone who is not SSA, and even some of them carry it.

I have to disagree with Alan here. Those results, and especially the lack of derived SLC24A5, look a lot like the Yamnaya and Catacomb results to me, not like the Sintashta results. I don't think these people were very fair at all. Of course, that's just guesswork. Like I said, you'd have to run all those snps into the algorithm. Maybe a couple of small effect genes might make up a bit for lack of large effect genes.

I'd like to have a time machine too, but we don't. :)

holderlin
08-03-17, 06:07
I disagree. the genetic signature we have found in real Indo_Iranians so far differ from CW in having little to none EEF.

It looks more like CWC and Indo_Iranians might share one common ancestor in a prior culture. I dunno, Sarmatian(and probably Alans too) look derived from Srubnaya/Andronovo/Sintashta all of which are closely related to CWC. The only difference is some Siberian, which I guess we're now calling indistinct central Asian. Whatever you want to call.

holderlin
08-03-17, 06:23
You can trace all of this back to the Steppe thousands of years before. Before Andronvo, Sintashta, Srubnaya, or CWC even existed.

We're seeing descendants of the Eastern fringes of Yamnaya (Afanesevo?) This is evident without even looking at the Y-lines, which if considered, make it hard to dispute.

We have Iranian genomes from very important sites. We know what they look like.

Alan
08-03-17, 12:53
I have to disagree with Alan here. Those results, and especially the lack of derived SLC24A5, look a lot like the Yamnaya and Catacomb results to me, not like the Sintashta results. I don't think these people were very fair at all. Of course, that's just guesswork. Like I said, you'd have to run all those snps into the algorithm. Maybe a couple of small effect genes might make up a bit for lack of large effect genes.

I'd like to have a time machine too, but we don't. :)


I think there was a little misunderstanding here :). I never said Scythians and Sarmatians were almost exclusively light pigmented. What I meant was that even their light pigmented individuals would have looked like light pigmented modern Iranic groups. And yes, in comparison to, mesolithic and neolithic/Bronze Age groups, we do have descriptions of the physical looks of the Sarmatians (Alans) from the Romans and Scythians from the Greels. And they are described as light haired and light eyed. Of course as we know people tend to exxagerate traits that are common among a population in comparison to themselves. And especially Mediterranean/Brunette looking people tend to consider everything from brown to blonde as blonde haired. But we have to take into account that even the fact that light features were mentioned specificly for them means that at least a significant amount of them had this features (it could be from 20-50% for all we know).

bicicleur
09-03-17, 16:13
That said, certain derived snps are given more weight in the programs. If someone has derived SLC24A5, SLC42A5, and TYR1 the odds are pretty good they're light skinned. If they have OCA2/HERC2 they're probably blue eyed. The only people who are likely to be blonde, blue-eyed and light skinned would have to have all of those plus more.



So these and maybe EDAR are the most reliable indications for phenotypes, but still not more than an indication.
We can at best discuss how and when these SNPs spread.

Angela
09-03-17, 18:44
So these and maybe EDAR are the most reliable indications for phenotypes, but still not more than an indication.
We can at best discuss how and when these SNPs spread.

We're largely in agreement.

I would just add that some scholars do indeed run the "phenotype" snps through the forensic calculators. I'm pretty sure the original Lazaridis and Haak papers did so.

Also, given that these are such high impact snps, I think it's reasonable to deduce that populations with derived versions of them would have had lighter pigmentation that people without them.

A. Papadimitriou
31-03-17, 21:47
Note a Sarmatian sample turned out with yDNA R1b.

In what culture and when?

I personally think that even the use of the term is a bad practice because its use during ancient times doesn't seem consistent. (It was used even for people in Eastern Poland).


Can someone inform me on the place of those samples?

In a study conducted in 2014 by Gennady Afanasiev et al. on bone fragments from 10 Alanic burials on the Don River, DNA could be extracted from a total of 7. [clarification needed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_clarify)][23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians#cite_note-23)[clarification needed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_clarify)]
In 2015, the Institute of Archaeology in Moscow conducted research on various Sarmato-Alan and Saltovo-Mayaki culture Kurgan burials. In these analyses, the two Alan samples from the 4th to 6th century AD turned out to belong to yDNA haplogroups G2a-P15 and R1a-z94, while two of the three Sarmatian samples from the 2nd to 3rd century AD were found to belong to yDNA haplogroup J1-M267 while one belonged to R1a.[24] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians#cite_note-24) Three Saltovo-Mayaki samples from the 8th to 9th century AD turned out to have yDNA corresponding to haplogroups G, J2a-M410 and R1a-z94.[25] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians#cite_note-25)[clarification needed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_clarify)]