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Angela
15-03-17, 16:29
See: Reich, Lazaridis
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/03/14/114124.full.pdf

"Failure to Replicate a Genetic Signal for Sex Bias in the Steppe Migration into Central Europe"

The reference is to this paper:
Amy Goldberg et al
Familial migration of the Neolithic contrasts massive male migration during Bronze Age inEurope inferred from ancient X chromosomes
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2016/09/30/078360.full.pdf

and discussed by us here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32889-Neolithic-migration-was-family-based-Bronze-Age-invasion-was-male-dominated?highlight=chromosome+steppe+migrations

This is how science is supposed to work. I guess those of us who doubted this whole huge harems idea had a point.

From the Reich, Lazaridis document:

"Goldberg et al.(1) used genome-wide ancient DNA data (2) from central European Bronze Age (BA)populations, and their three ancestral sources of steppe pastoralists (SP), Anatolian farmers (AF), andEuropean hunter-gatherers (HG), to investigate whether the SP migration into central Europe after5,000 years ago (3, 4) was sex biased. By estimating a lower proportion of SP ancestry on the Xchromosome(36.6%) which is primarily carried in females than on the autosomes (61.8%), theysuggested that the migration involved a ratio of 5-14 SP males for every female...

We attempted to replicate this finding using qpAdm (3), which leverages allele frequency correlationsbetween the admixed (BA) and source (SP, AF, HG) populations with distant outgroups to eliminatepotential biases due to genetic drift between the true source populations and the ones used assurrogates for them...

For the BA population, we estimate 61.4±2.9% SP, 31.0±1.2% AF,7.6±2.9% HG ancestry using all autosomal SNPs and 67.5±17% SP, 26.5±6.9% AF, 6.0±16.4% HGusing all X-chromosome SNPs; thus we do not find less SP ancestry on the X-chromosome.


I find it interesting they're using "SP", steppe people, perhaps, instead of Yamnaya or Indo-Europeans etc.

Maciamo
15-03-17, 18:21
This dual opposition is a bit simplistic. It depends what period and region we are looking at. It has always been clear that the Corded Ware expansion was conducted both by men and women. The very first, pre-Yamna incursions of R1b into the Balkans were led predominantly by men. There may have been other groups of male adventurers spreading all over central and western Europe during the Late Neolithic (Bell Beaker culture). But during the Late Yamna there seem to have been a real family migration from the Steppe to the Hungarian plain, which then continued up to Czechia, Poland and Germany (Unetice culture). The fateful period for the expansion of R1b lineages was 2500 to 2000 BCE. This is when we see in an explosion of lineages under P312 and U106 in the R1b phylogeny. In just a few generations over a hundred new subclades appeared, from which almost half of modern West Europeans descend. This could only have happened if R1b men took numerous wives. And indeed West Europeans have overwhelmingly Neolithic mtDNA, in contrast to central and eastern Europeans, who have a considerable percentage of Steppe mtDNA. I don't have the exact data because only deep mtDNA subclades can differentiate Steppe from Neolithic H, J, K and T, and WHG/SHG U5a2 and U5b from EHG U5a1. But if we take only haplogroups I, U4 and W as a fraction of Steppe maternal ancestry, here is what we get:

- Spain : 4.4% of I, U4 and W
- Denmark : 5.4%
- Portugal : 5.7%
- Switzerland : 5.8%
- France : 6.4%
- Norway : 6.4%
- Ireland : 6.6%
- Germany : 6.7%
- Albania : 6.8%
- England : 7.4%
- Scotland : 7.5%
- Bulgaria : 7.8%
- Croatia : 8.3%
- Belarus : 8.5%
- Lithuania : 9%
- Ukraine : 10.1%
- Hungary : 10.4%
- Slovakia : 10.4%
- Poland : 10.7%
- Karachay-Balkars : 11.3%
- Serbia : 13.6%
- Dargins : 13.9%
- Bashkirs : 15.9%
- Avars : 16.2%
- Chuvashs : 18.2%

It's not really correct because some U4 was WHG and W1 was Neolithic, so the numbers are a bit higher than they should be for Steppe mtDNA in Western Europe.

What's interesting is that the British Isles do have a few percents more Steppe mtDNA than the rest of Western Europe.


I am not sure of the location and time frame of the samples analysed by the two teams, but we should expect considerable differences between the Late Neolithic period in Central Europe (Bell Beaker period), and the Early Bronze Age (Unetice period). Furthermore, Central Europe is a vague term, and northern Corded Ware sites would have considerably more female Steppe ancestry than any contemporary Steppe culture in the southern half of the continent (south of Czechia and Slovakia).

Angela
15-03-17, 20:04
From the Goldberg et al paper:
"We analyzed published (6) ancient samples that have been genotyped for a set of 1,240,000 SNPs, including 49,711 on the X chromosome. Under notation from (6), for the early Neolithic migration from Anatolia, we considered individuals from the CEM population label for ‘selection label 2’; for the Late Neolithic/Bronze Age migrations from the Pontic Steppe, we considered individuals with ‘archeological culture’ label Central_LNBA. These subsets of the data geographically restrict analyses to Central Europeans, decreasing potential variation from spatial variation within Europe. Additionally, while the samples each span approximately one thousand years, the small correlations (< 0.1) between X or autosomal ancestry and calibrated dates are not statistically significant."

This specific information about the samples being analyzed comes from the Reich, Lazaridis rebuttal:


8558

I just quickly skanned the entry at Jean Manco's ancient dna page. The steppe populations seem to have carried more than U4, W, and X to the best of my recollection. Is that incorrect?

If someone has the information readily to hand about the cultural affiliation of these samples it would be interesting to see it, as well as the mtDna.

Fire Haired14
15-03-17, 20:20
We attempted to replicate this finding using qpAdm (3), which leverages allele frequency correlationsbetween the admixed (BA) and source (SP, AF, HG) populations with distant outgroups

That's a red flag. As far as I know using distant outgroups is never a good idea. If you use only Asian and African outgroups then there's hardly any difference between EEF and CHG for example.

EDIT: Never mind. Here are their outgroups; Mota (5), Ust_Ishim (6), Kostenki14 (7), GoyetQ116-1 (7),Vestonice16 (7), MA1(8), AfontovaGora3 (7), and Levantine Neolithic farmers (9).

Those are good outgroups for determining Steppe, EEF, WHG ancestry.

Fire Haired14
15-03-17, 20:22
I just quickly skanned the entry at Jean Manco's ancient dna page. The steppe populations seem to have carried more than U4, W, and X to the best of my recollection. Is that incorrect?

If someone has the information readily to hand about the cultural affiliation of these samples it would be interesting to see it, as well as the mtDna.

Steppe (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1wO2kKWinRQepqXrS7yxY5W4fzFDYAjVL7G5U7g8ik lo)
BA Central Europe (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1HfIwKB1lzgnOCE52nRP9Mjso93Kx5PP0g83goqGtx oY)

Fire Haired14
15-03-17, 20:29
@Maciamo,

It's difficult to determine Steppe mtDNA frequencies because....

>Natural selection
>Steppe shared some mtDNA with EEF and Eastern WHG.
>Modern and ancient samples haven't been tested at a high enough coverage to find many Steppe mHGs.

T1a and hg I were popular in both Yamnaya and Andornovo. T1a and I haven't been found in Neolithic Spain. Modern Spain and Lithuania have about the same amount of T1a and I. That doesn't make sense right? There's also hardly any variation of U2e frequencies in Europe. Forces besides maternal steppe ancestry affect T1a, I, W6, U2e, etc. frequencies.

U5a correlates best with Steppe ancestry because it's the only mHG that was popular in Steppe, unpopular in EEF, and has been tested in many modern samples. But Eastern HGs also had a lot of U5a and some Hungarian farmers had a decent amount. So some U5a in Eastern Europe is certainly of non Steppe origin.

Fire Haired14
15-03-17, 20:41
They argue the older study concluded Steppe/MN admixture was sex bias becuase the ADMIXTURE method they used overestimates Steppe ancestry in the autosomes.


Supervised ADMIXTURE predicts real ancestry poorly in this setting (Figure 1b). The estimation error (estimated – real ancestry) is strongly correlated (r=0.91) with theestimated SP ancestry, allowing us to predict it by a regression (Figure 1c), which indicates upwardbias for high SP ancestry estimates and downward bias for low ones. For the pool of 16 individualsthat the authors of (1) estimated had 36.6% ancestry, the error is predicted to be -19.5%, largelyeliminating the discrepancy between the X-chromosome estimate of (1) and the autosomal ancestryestimates of ADMIXTURE (1) and qpAdm. These results show that bias in the estimation ofadmixture proportions, rather than sex bias in the steppe migration, drives the findings of (1).

LeBrok
15-03-17, 22:00
Good stuff. I argued before that with such large scale population replacement in Central North and Central West Europe, it would be impossible to explain with only male invasion.

Fire Haired14
15-03-17, 22:03
Farmer Moms, Pastoral Dads??? (http://mtdnaatlas.blogspot.com/2017/03/farmer-moms-pastoral-dads.html)

Tomenable
15-03-17, 22:15
Forces besides maternal steppe ancestry affect T1a, I, W6, U2e, etc. frequencies.

W6 is also not exclusively Steppe (but W6a probably is).

There are only four ancient W6 samples I'm aware of:

W6: Va7, ~5500-4500 BC, Vinča culture Romania

W6c: Lopatino I, ~3090-2910 BC, Yamnaya Russia

W6a: Lopatino II, ~3500-2700 BC, Yamnaya Russia
W6a: Esperstedt, ~2566-2477 BC, Corded Ware Germany

berun
16-03-17, 00:16
So there were not ten farmer females trying to chase together a steppe warrior with blond hair weaving freely on the wind as he was driving his chariot with a naked and musculed chest as I think some Yamnayists were dreaming about?

Fire Haired14
16-03-17, 01:26
So there were not ten farmer females trying to chase together a steppe warrior with blond hair weaving freely on the wind as he was driving his chariot with a naked and musculed chest as I think some Yamnayists were dreaming about?

Lol!! Ten to one sounds crazy, I don't know how they came up with that. I do think though that Steppe/MN admixture was sex bias to some extent because of Y DNA R1 frequencies and frequencies of typical EEF mtDNA. But when looking at BA Central European mtDNA it's obvious many Steppe women migrated alongside their men.
https://media.giphy.com/media/tRCRvmaUV3c7C/giphy.gif

Fire Haired14
16-03-17, 01:27
From my blog post...

Corded Ware. N=67.
mtDNA: Steppe 42% (28), Farmer 41% (27), Unknown 17% (12)
Y DNA: 100% Steppe.
Autosomal: ~75% Steppe, ~25% Farmer


Bell Beaker. N=42.
Steppe=38% (16), Farmer=36% (16), Unknown 26% (10)
Y DNA: 100% Steppe
Autosomal: ~50% Steppe, ~50% Farmer


Unetice. N=94
Steppe=36% (34), Farmer=28% (26), Unknown 36% (34)
Y DNA: 100% Farmer?(yHG I2, could be Steppe aswell)
Autosomal: ~60% Steppe, ~40% Farmer.

Alan
16-03-17, 04:20
So there were not ten farmer females trying to chase together a steppe warrior with blond hair weaving freely on the wind as he was driving his chariot with a naked and musculed chest as I think some Yamnayists were dreaming about?
Even funnier, the fact that they weren't blonde but looked more like northern West Asians via skin color.

Fire Haired14
16-03-17, 07:19
Even funnier, the fact that they weren't blonde but looked more like northern West Asians via skin color.

But besides color they definitely looked distinctively European. There's more than a color difference between West Asians and Europeans.

berun
16-03-17, 08:14
Even funnier, the fact that they weren't blonde but looked more like northern West Asians via skin color.

I think it is not a problem at all, you know, in the steppe there were many corners and there were Asian/Armenian R1b, CW R1a, and R1b-L51, with blond, black and even green hair if we search hard for it, the variety was so big there...

berun
16-03-17, 08:31
And I forgot the Central European I2a2b, present also in possible IE cultures as Unetice and Urnfield, well, I know that there was only a Yamnayan sample which was I2a2a, but it's well stablished that all haplos formed in the steppes and learnt in their schools the academical IE of Pokorny with six or seven h's (the mothers speak an impressive variety of Caucasian languages so that the school was the unique way to learn goodly IE).

MOESAN
16-03-17, 21:39
I've not scientific clues to date (I'm waiting the results of the chiefs of Science competition, people which are pushed to emit quick conclusions almost as quickly as basic poorly knowledged citizens), but good sense tell me that there were differences between several sorts of steppic herders incursions; not too clear, but I think some among the first adventurers were rather males, and they picked foreign local females - as you I don't think the whole IE or IE-icized which settled Europe came without any females, leaving their own females behind them to profit of more attractive western females (and giving these last ones their own children to educate)!
the reality is between: we know the young males in this kinds of societies had sometimes their "ver sacrum", "sacred or holly spring" (?) and they left their well settled tribes, to run adventure and perhaps to look after mercenary business; these young men surely took outside females (Italics did, Celts did, other surely did?), some returned not all of them, other settled in other places, for the most keeping their culture and language ;
SO I bet there have been differences between X-DNA and global auDNA of the pops born after these big pops moves, not so dramatic as said by the first study, but real; all the way, by time, these differences between X and total DNA tend to disappear, evidently.
I add some today old survey I red found (or they believed they had found?) that the global Mediterranean pops from West to East show a tendancy to more level X-DNA than the global DNA of the diverse pops (X less different) -

MOESAN
16-03-17, 21:46
I add it's not always the Steppic males who took farmers female; physical anthropologic surveys about Sredny Stog shew the females were almost 100% Dniestr local pop (HG issued) BUT the males were a mix of local HGs with 'mediterraneanlike' other males, intruders; helas, it didn't say if the tendancy was towards EEF pop or Caucasian or 'east-mediter' types... No Berun, we are not thinking all the unbalanced matings were on the everlasting HG-males / farmers-females (little joke).

Angela
16-03-17, 21:52
Cultural affiliation of samples under discussion:

8559

Alan
16-03-17, 21:53
But besides color they definitely looked distinctively European. There's more than a color difference between West Asians and Europeans.

You think a population that does not cluster with any modern population, that basically is ~50/50 EHG/CHG-Iran_Neo like would look distincly European. Additional to that you assume you can say that someone with typical "European" aDNA could look nothing less than "typical European" just like you would never in your live mistake this Druze guy for anything else but Near Eastern.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3167/2509940349_db71f6c200_b.jpg

I am sorry to burst the bubble but within the major three branchest of the Human aDNA groups (West Eurasian, East Eurasian, Sub Saharan African) there is not enough in the DNA to differentiate physical appearance beyond pigmentation. Laying sekeltal/cranial differences, height etc to the side (which in factis quite diverse in Europe to begin with), West Eurasians look just the same to an eye of an East Eurasians and the average East Eurasian can only tell them apart by pigmentation, just like average West Eurasian does so with East Eurasians.

Fire Haired14
16-03-17, 22:22
You think a population that does not cluster with any modern population, that basically is ~50/50 EHG/CHG-Iran_Neo like would look distincly European.

BA Steppe groups weren't a mysterious population, they're maybe the primary ancestor of Northern Europeans aka white people. Why is it hard for you to believe they looked white?


I am sorry to burst the bubble but within the major three branchest of the Human aDNA groups (West Eurasian, East Eurasian, Sub Saharan African) there is not enough in the DNA to differentiate physical appearance beyond pigmentation.

There are many differences besides color.

Fire Haired14
16-03-17, 22:29
Also, Alan most Corded Ware genomes are MN admixed. Northern Europeans today can be modeled as 70% Corded Ware. The chances they'd look foreign to their descendants is low.

Yeah, history doesn't match a Nordicts fantasy but to distant Corded Ware or Yamnaya phenotypically from Europeans as you are is exaggerating how wrong they are.

MOESAN
16-03-17, 23:21
@FireHaired: "they looked white" (?!?) - I suppose you think they are on the 'europoid' or 'caucasoid' side of phenotypes?
@Alan: are you speaking of 'east-eurasians' in the meaning of 'east caucasoids' or in the meaning of 'east-asians' ('mongoloids') because concerning aspect it is of importance, even aside pigmentation (not so evident by the way)?
If we want to discuss the phenotypes, it deserves a specific thread in Anthropology, not here. I've nothing against this because anrhropo/metrics and non-metrics can help to show some differences of origin between neigbouring pops.

MarkoZ
16-03-17, 23:46
Also, Alan most Corded Ware genomes are MN admixed. Northern Europeans today can be modeled as 70% Corded Ware. The chances they'd look foreign to their descendants is low.

Yeah, history doesn't match a Nordicts fantasy but to distant Corded Ware or Yamnaya phenotypically from Europeans as you are is exaggerating how wrong they are.

But the measurements provided by the old anthropologists (who were Nordicist nuts mostly across the board) don't really match with recent Europeans. CW were more dolichocephalous and high-skulled than even present day Portuguese.

Eventually CW would have blended into the typically West Eurasian morphology, but the dimensions of their skulls go in the rather extreme direction of the Natufians or recent Bedouins.

Fire Haired14
17-03-17, 01:28
White is layman's term for Eurpoid or whatever, it gets the same message across. No one should be allergeic to that word

Angela
17-03-17, 02:56
Fire-Haired:But besides color they definitely looked distinctively European.

Where do you get this stuff? Do you have a crystal ball or a time machine or something? That's a vast over-statement.

Also, what's the "distinctively" European look these people had versus a northern West Asian look? Are you going back to only blonde, blue-eyed people are "distinctively" European? Well, if that's the case, those Yamnaya and Catacomb people were not "distinctively European" looking. Features? What, pray tell, are "distinctively European" features? Pug noses? It seems more than a few of the skulls show prominent, bony noses from what I remember.

Yes, these people had broadly "West Eurasian" ancestry, but to say they had a "distinctly" European appearance is bizarre and smacks of the basement anthropology of nordicist anthrofora.

When populations mix, a new "look" is created. So, the roughly half EHG/half CHG people of Yamnaya would not have looked like either of the parent populations.

When this steppe like population mixed with MN Europeans to produce Corded Ware the "appearance" doubtless changed again, and then changed again with more admixture.

If I had to guess and do some generalizing of my own, I would bet that the modern "looks" of various areas is only about 2,000 to 3000 years old, depending on the place.

The most amusing part of this thread is that someone actually brought up the cover art on romance novels. :) Those covers were only produced after extensive market research and testing. What that tells us is that young American women fantasize about tall, extremely muscular men who are usually darker than they are, often quite a bit darker...
http://www.publishersweekly.com/articles/blog/880000288/20080626/n91643.jpg

I wonder what these people are thinking as they pose for these ridiculous photos? I wish I brought my sweater? Do I have time to pick up my dry cleaning? I wish this guy would put a mint in his mouth? :)

Romance novels were very different when I was a teen-ager!
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71KRqiLII%2BL.jpg

I think they should make a film about Yamnaya and Catacomb. How about him for the star? Is he too "eastern" looking? I like Murat Yildirin a lot, but I think he has too much Levantine in him.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f4/ff/1d/f4ff1d90b0328c8cd67a6013bf780d9b.jpg

Or maybe him if they darken and roughen him up a bit?
http://i.sabah.com.tr/sbh/2016/06/05/650x344/1465117061953.jpg

Come on, guys, lighten up.

Fire Haired14
17-03-17, 03:19
@Angela,

The fact that Yamnayaish people contributed a lot to Europeans is enough evidence for it to be likely they looked fairly European. The fact Corded Ware was basically the same as modern Northern Europeans is enough evidence for it to be likely they basically looked the same.

No knowledge in worldwide phenotype is needed. That's a super complex field and there's no where to learn from experts of the field because there are no experts and it isn't studied. So there's no point in having a Long debate about it, instead we should just go by who traces a lot of ancestry to them. And I just know from real life that there are distinctive middle eastern facial features you'll never find in Europeans and I'm sure in Yamnaya aswell. That plus genetics is why I corrected Alan who argued instead of being blonde gods they actually looked like west Asians.

There shouldn't be a suspicion someone is a nordicist if they suppose Yamnya or Corded ware looked a lot like Northern Europeans. It seems to me you do suspect that's the case if for whatever reason someone brings that up.

Angela
17-03-17, 04:08
@Angela,

The fact that Yamnayaish people contributed a lot to Europeans is enough evidence for it to be likely they looked fairly European. The fact Corded Ware was basically the same as modern Northern Europeans is enough evidence for it to be likely they basically looked the same.

No knowledge in worldwide phenotype is needed. That's a super complex field and there's no where to learn from experts of the field because there are no experts and it isn't studied. So there's no point in having a Long debate about it, instead we should just go by who traces a lot of ancestry to them. And I just know from real life that there are distinctive middle eastern facial features you'll never find in Europeans and I'm sure in Yamnaya aswell. That plus genetics is why I corrected Alan who argued instead of being blonde gods they actually looked like west Asians.

There shouldn't be a suspicion someone is a nordicist if they suppose Yamnya or Corded ware looked a lot like Northern Europeans. It seems to me you do suspect that's the case if for whatever reason someone brings that up.

None of that is what you said originally.

Mulattos look neither "black" nor "white". Fifty percent ancestry isn't going to make northern Europeans look just like the Yamnaya, and the Yamnaya didn't look completely EHG, whatever that even was... You're dreaming or repeating hogwash you've heard elsewhere.

I am not going to debate with a teenager from Chicago who has no meaningful knowledge or experience to speak of in these matters. I might as well debate the phenotypes of Sicily with the basement anthropologist who has never set foot anywhere in Italy or the Near East or anywhere else for that matter.

Fire Haired14
17-03-17, 04:24
None of that is what you said originally.

All of it is what I said originally. My argument has been Yamnaya and Corded Ware looked similar to Northern Europeans because they gave them a lot of ancestry. I responded to Alan who argued they looked like West Asians because they were probably the same color. I didn't randomly bring up this topic.


Mulattos don't look "white" to use your word. Fifty percent ancestry isn't going to make northern Europeans look just like the Yamnaya. You're dreaming.

Mixed populations have their own look is your own hypothesis. As I said before no body studies populations "looks" or whatever scientific word for it would be so I'll just treat that as your opinon not fact. What I *think*(not proven fact) you can't deny though is that some traits unique to Europeans can be traced back to the BA Steppe.


Arrogance without knowledge or experience convinces no one.

There's no such thing as a polite argument. Of course I've been a little belligerent but that doesn't take away the logic in my argument. How does it not make sense that population A looks a lot like population B who gave them 50% or even 70%(Corded Ware) of their ancestry?

Angela
17-03-17, 04:30
Fire-Haired:But besides color they definitely looked distinctively European.

Learn to choose your words intelligently and carefully if you want to be taken seriously.

Tomenable
17-03-17, 09:02
Corded Ware. N=67.
mtDNA: Steppe 42% (28), Farmer 41% (27), Unknown 17% (12)
Y DNA: 100% Steppe.
Autosomal: ~75% Steppe, ~25% Farmer

There was some Non-Steppic Y-DNA as well (check samples from Jagodno in Poland).

MarkoZ
17-03-17, 18:02
Mixed populations have their own look is your own hypothesis. As I said before no body studies populations "looks" or whatever scientific word for it would be so I'll just treat that as your opinon not fact. What I *think*(not proven fact) you can't deny though is that some traits unique to Europeans can be traced back to the BA Steppe.


There is not a single trait truly unique to Europeans - the closest you'll find to distinctive Europeans would probably be the representatives of the 'WHG branch', as Lazaridis calls it. This is because those humans spent enough time in a relatively cold climate (late Paleolithic into the Mesolithic) to develop a comparatively cold-adapted morphology. The same mechanisms were in place outside of Europe, but the WHGs got swamped there by later populations movements. The Neolithic and metal age migrations reverse this trend into a more gracile direction within Europe.

If I were to guess, Europeans would probably look a bit more 'Finnish' if it wasn't for these later migrations. Anecdotally it would seem that most modern Europeans are still insufficiently adapted to the climate they live in. Without soft tissue it would be almost impossible to tell apart a North African and an average European, yet the latter are starkly differentiated from moderately cold-adapted natives of the Altai and Mongolia, for example.

johen
17-03-17, 18:36
edit................

johen
17-03-17, 18:38
There is not a single trait truly unique to Europeans - the closest you'll find to distinctive Europeans would probably be the representatives of the 'WHG branch', as Lazaridis calls it. This is because those humans spent enough time in a relatively cold climate (late Paleolithic into the Mesolithic) to develop a comparatively cold-adapted morphology. The same mechanisms were in place outside of Europe, but the WHGs got swamped there by later populations movements. The Neolithic and metal age migrations reverse this trend into a more gracile direction within Europe.

If I were to guess, Europeans would probably look a bit more 'Finnish' if it wasn't for these later migrations. Anecdotally it would seem that most modern Europeans are still insufficiently adapted to the climate they live in. Without soft tissue it would be almost impossible to tell apart a North African and an average European, yet the latter are starkly differentiated from moderately cold-adapted natives of the Altai and Mongolia, for example.

I think East Europe at Bronze age was different


Several Mesolithic and early Neolithic populations dated to 10,000 – 6,000 years BC from Russia, Romania and Ukraine have been analysed by means of quantifying their 3D cranial shape. The whole sample comprised 85 individuals, including Mesolithic and Neolithic groups from Yuzhny Oleni Ostrov (Russia); Vasilievka, Voloshkoe and Vovnigi (Ukraine); Varasti (Romania); Itkul and Ust-Isha (South Siberia) and Locomotiv (East Siberia). A comparative set of modern populations was sampled to include representatives from Europe, Africa, Eastern Asia and (native) America. Apart from the standard geometric morphometric procedures, we cluster ordinated data to establish potential relationships between groups and use permutation of individual distances to establish the significance of the group differentiation. The method of analysis is first verified with the help of the modern populations that have varied geographical provenance. We establish that no cranial data, whether the face and the neurocranium are analysed together or separately, allow us to recover geographical relationships between the modern populations in our sample. Nevertheless, clusters that have been recovered with the help of the whole cranium data correspond well with the expected generic relationships between the sampled modern groups. As a result, we choose to analyse the shape of the complete cranium, where such is available, in fossil individuals as well. Our results highlight a high level of variation within Mesolithic and within Neolithic populations of the Eastern Europe and Siberia as compared with the pooled sample of the modern humans from different geographical locations worldwide. However, a certain structure among the analysed groups can still be revealed. The results suggest that Mesolithic groups from the Dnieper region have close morphological affinities with each other, while Yushny Oleni Ostrov have a large overlap with modern humans in general and with some of the mongoloid groups in particular. Neolithic groups are, on the whole, closer to modern populations than to the Mesolithic sample. At the same time, Siberian individuals show a complex pattern of morphological relationships which may be revealing of their genetic identity. On the whole, our results invite further discussion on the origins and affinities of the Eastern European Mesolithic and Early Neolithic groups as well as call for the research into the impact that the choice of data has on the results of 3D morphological analyses. Acknowledgements: This work has been supported by the grant of the Russian Foundation for Basic Research No № НК 13-06-00045.”


Debetz (1936), and Alexeev and Gokhman (1987) identified a so-called CroMagnon variety among the Bronze and Iron Age skeletal materials of European Russia and southern Siberia. This variety that combined the cranial robustness with a broad face, had its roots in the local Upper Palaeolithic

And I think this Up type is closely related with HG or Steppe mt DNAs of late neolithic/bronze age, not of mesolithic in the map:

https://static-content.springer.com/image/art%3A10.1186%2Fs12862-017-0924-0/MediaObjects/12862_2017_924_Fig2_HTML.gif

MOESAN
18-03-17, 00:01
all that is means, not enough typology not enough shapes -
I think there is a lack of imagination in analysis
we modern people in Europe are all "neolithicized" phenotypically speaking, not so much by genetic convergence but by general gracilization linked to way of life/environment constraints,not specially climatic, this whatever the genetic background which is far to be uniform - "on life" adaptation (gestation and post-birth life) and not only genetic selection - means metrics fails to analysis the components of crossings and can put us to do big mistakes about our true diverse origins - it's good analysing pops but individuals in pops give us a complement of information - the great sin in some surveys is to push us to believe in stable pops evolving by themselves (within) when in fact the % of diverse individuals composing them were changing from time to time by diverse historic moves - the two phenomenon co-exists: within evolution and new people introgressions -
a "gracilized" pop can can be the result of way-of-life or adaptative gracilization, but also by the addition of more naturally more gracile people: here is the question -

Tomenable
24-03-17, 03:11
Mulattos look neither "black" nor "white". Fifty percent ancestry isn't going to make northern Europeans look just like the Yamnaya, and the Yamnaya didn't look completely EHG, whatever that even was... You're dreaming or repeating hogwash you've heard elsewhere.This is more or less how an average Yamnaya man looked like (putting pigmentation aside). There was a large within-group variance among them (maybe even as large as in modern Europe), but the morph below averages few dozen images. While individual reconstructions can be biased, a morph made of many reconstructions should be relatively bias-free:

http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p515/aphetor/yamnaya.jpg

In my opinion this "average Yamnaya man" could easily pass as typical in all of Northern Europe.

Of course it doesn't mean that if you average modern Northern Europeans, you will also get this.


Mulattos look neither "black" nor "white".

Mulattos are Congoid-Caucasoid. The Yamnaya were mixed, but it was Caucasoid-Caucasoid.

So those populations ancestral to the Yamnaya were more similar to each other to begin with.

MOESAN
24-03-17, 14:33
Tomenable, you know what I mean about averaging collective mensurations to produce this kind of "average man" - look at the 'average pops' produced by Dienekes some time ago - that said, if I take this picture, not as a mean type whic doesn't exist, but as a mean collective result of mensurations, it tell me these Steppes people was far enough of true 'cromagnoids' and were only as a mean large faced people with over-mean facial index and not true broad facial index (BTW it could be their 'brünnoid' input, always stronger in E-Europe than in West - higher jaw/narrower jaw spite broad bizygomatic's - associated to an increase in body stature (they were tall, whatever the reason) - all that said, we still know little about some crossings results upon means, not by force the expected results based upon "father types" means.
based on this picture I don't find it evocates something very typically northeuropean of any sort but facila reconstruction is an artistic sport -

MOESAN
24-03-17, 14:40
among animals we see that according to the gender of parents, the crossings have not always exactly the same results - I doubt it would be so evident among Humans but it could have some input? We can be almost sure a lot of female lineages of East-Carpathian and North Caucasus pops participated in the demography of the Steppes tribes since Neolithic (maybe already before that) and not only at metals ages. it could be linked to diverse factors not exclusive one to another: rapts, pacific exchanges, climatic adaptative advantages of some mt-DNA at some stages of History (mt is not only "decorative")

Tomenable
29-03-17, 12:28
MOESAN,

About Afanasievo, Andronovo, etc. phenotypes. Oshanin L. V., Antropological Composition of the population of Central Asia, and ethnogenesis of its peoples, 1964:

https://s2.postimg.org/6kr18hq9j/Bez-nazwy-1.jpg

https://s14.postimg.org/e5n7vg2vl/Bez-nazwy-2.jpg

Another fragment:

https://s23.postimg.org/ja73v4dwb/Bez-nazwy-3.jpg

MOESAN
30-03-17, 15:58
"Blnd Dinlin race" ? I was not aware of this, interesting - for the remnant of the extract, we have more data about these roughly said 'cromagnoid' types of Steppes and the opinions are more nuanced -

johen
30-03-17, 18:28
About Afanasievo, Andronovo, etc. phenotypes. Oshanin L. V., Antropological Composition of the population of Central Asia, and ethnogenesis of its peoples, 1964:


10. PEOPLES OF CENTRAL ASIA.
the Origin of the brachycephalic Europoid type remains unclear.



I hope we go deeply to know where the bronze cromagnoid people (first IE speaker) came from, not just to focus upon the general concept of “Europoid.”

1. Where and how did afanasievo people come from? The anthro and archaeological data of Karzarstan and western steppe of south siberia do not allow west to connect to east at early Bronze age. And afanasievo people were just migrants to the territory of the local okunevo people, being mixed. Later they disappeared and okunevo age started again. How can the afanasievo people claim their terriory in there at that time? They were not invaders and we did not know who were the rulers. Moreover the Afanasievo people was surrounded by such a people like intermediate between mongoloid and europoid. What is relationship between the afanasievo caucasoid and the intermediates? How come afansievo culture merged with the intermediate people’s culture? Did they do with neolithic farmers also in pontic steppe?

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33484-why-Okunevo-culture-was-ingored-in-Indo-European-history-they-are-just-paleo-people

2. How come Andronovo people face was lower and wider than afanasievo people? How is it possible regardless of their genetic admixture? They have admixtures of yamna and “EEF”, not mongolids.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6IxdvII-LQs/ViGboGhpIDI/AAAAAAAADiw/E47emLBllX8/s1600/Neolithic.png

Due to the special facial traits, smart Debets and the other russian anthropologist(2011) mentioned that andronovo people originated in the isolated area of Karzarstan, even if they did not prove it.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33737-Ancient-Genomics-of-Neolithic-to-Bronze-Age-Baikal-Hunter-Gatherers (10)

And it means, I think, their yellow genes would not come from yamna or afanasievo. I think modern genetics still does not clarify the gene of source population. I got the same impression from the recent scythian research that east scythian has component of yamna, not okunevo.
Moreover andronovo(Fedorovo) culture started in East Karzarstan, which is closely related with Indo-Aryan culture. (The Origin of the Indo-Iranians (p252, 2006)- Elena Efimovna Kuzʹmina)

Angela
30-03-17, 19:30
Can you guys please take this discussion over to the anthropology section as Moesan suggested at one point? I think there's a thread open there.

MOESAN
30-03-17, 20:06
Andronovo broader faced than Afanasyevo broad faced people? Maybe no surprise: all these descriptions are without any cifer or mean or index, only "digest" notions for amateurs like us; a way to keep his knowledge for himself? I dont know... to understand and compare something we uneed individuals and collective data, with curves and graphics - In my mind the mean types pop they call vaguely 'proto-europoids croma' or the same stuff is a mix where dominate at least two old types, as a whole broader faced than the modern 'europoid' mean(s), one more than the other all the way and in this mean some element(s) with narrower face is/are playing a role, even if light enough - so Andronovo could be 1- Afanasyevo mix + something 'north' broader faced (1a: pre-euro/pre-mongoloid - 1b: pure 'europoid' from where?), or 2- a local drift of the same Afanasyevo mix where the broader faces catched more weight by hazard and? But not only they had broader faces, but also broader skulls (Ceph-index): it could favour the solution 1 - some true brachy's at individual level were found in Steppes -
seemingly the complex subdolicho-very broad faces+subdolicho-rather broad faces (very broad cheekbones) - came from West to East (with post-Maglemose cultures) along the Sth shores of the Baltic Sea towards Nth Russia where they met dolicho-narrow faces (post-Sviderian cult-?) people in the Oka-Volga region, if I red well - but where were the sub-brachy's at this time?

&: beside: what is your Kazarstan? Kazakhstan or?

Tomenable
03-04-17, 19:51
They insist that there is no failure to replicate sex bias:

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/04/03/122218

"Reply To Lazaridis And Reich: Robust Model-Based Inference Of Male-Biased Admixture During Bronze Age Migration From The Pontic-Caspian Steppe"

Amy Goldberg, Torsten Gunther, Noah A Rosenberg, Mattias Jakobsson

Abstract:

Comparing the sex-specifically inherited X chromosome to the autosomes in ancient genetic samples, we (1) studied sex-specific admixture for two prehistoric migrations. For each migration, we used several admixture estimation procedures, including ADMIXTURE model-based clustering (2), comparing X-chromosomal and autosomal ancestry in contemporaneous Central Europeans, interpreting greater admixture from the migrating population on the autosomes as male-biased migration. For migration into late Neolithic/Bronze Age Central Europeans (BA) from the Pontic-Caspian steppe (SP), we inferred male-biased admixture at 5-14 males per migrating female. Lazaridis & Reich (3) contest this male-biased migration claim. For simulated individuals, they claim that ADMIXTURE provides biased X-chromosomal ancestry estimates. They argue that if the bias is taken into account, then X-chromosomal steppe ancestry is similar to our autosomal ancestry estimate, and that hence, steppe male and female contributions are similar. We conduct simulations of ancient and modern data under a range of conditions. We conclude that our inference of male-biased Pontic-Caspian steppe migration, seen using ADMIXTURE, STRUCTURE, mechanistic simulations, and X/autosomal FST, is robust. Our analysis further illuminates the impact of small haploid reference samples on ADMIXTURE; we look forward to refining sex-specific migration estimates as larger, higher-coverage ancient samples become available.

ThirdTerm
04-04-17, 00:28
Goldberg et al. (2017) originally inferred male-biased admixture at 5-14 males per migrating female, which was lowered to 4-7 migrating steppe males per female in the reply to Lazaridis & Reich. Figure 1 plots estimated X-chromosomal ancestry for simulated BA individuals, which clearly shows substantial male excess during the steppe migration, even though the level of male excess is just half as much as they initially claimed.

https://s29.postimg.org/c6i51fq4n/image.png
Figure 1.
ADMIXTURE inference in simulated ancient genomes.

Angela
04-04-17, 22:28
I wonder if this will go a third round? :)

Quite a reduction as you say, anyway, by about a half.