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View Full Version : From Doggerland to the Ural?



Walhaz
27-03-17, 05:30
So I've read time and time again that I-M223 originated in Doggerland. If that's the case, how did it make its way from there to the homeland of the Yamna culture near the Ural river? Am I misinterpreting something? Is there a map of the migrations?

Maciamo
27-03-17, 08:36
Where did you read such nonsense? It's impossible to say exactly where in Europe I2-M223 originated because it was a lineage of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers, who were by nature nomadic and roamed all over the continent. This is how some I2-M223 subclades were found in western Europe (some samples were confirmed in Megalithic Spain and France), while others ended up in the Pontic Steppe or other parts of eastern Europe.

Walhaz
27-03-17, 17:26
The old version of 23andme, BritainsDNA, and the FTDNA project on I-M223 all state that it originaged in (or, in the case of BritainsDNA, eventually made it to) Doggerland. 23andme also mentions a possible association with the Gravettians. Am I possibly thinking of a subclade of I-M223? I read a paper by a geneticist named Gábor Balogh that mentioned origins in Doggerland several times throughout.

Maciamo
27-03-17, 17:38
The old version of 23andme, BritainsDNA, and the FTDNA project on I-M223 all state that it originaged in (or, in the case of BritainsDNA, eventually made it to) Doggerland. 23andme also mentions a possible association with the Gravettians. Am I possibly thinking of a subclade of I-M223? I read a paper by a geneticist named Gábor Balogh that mentioned origins in Doggerland several times throughout.

That's one more reason not to trust what testing companies say. They have no way to know where it originated apart saying something very broad like Europe. As for its presence in the Gravettian culture, it is simply impossible as I-M223 formed only 17,000 years ago, some 5,000 years after the end of the Gravettian.

Walhaz
27-03-17, 18:02
That's one more reason not to trust what testing companies say. They have no way to know where it originated apart saying something very broad like Europe. As for its presence in the Gravettian culture, it is simply impossible as I-M223 formed only 17,000 years ago, some 5,000 years after the end of the Gravettian.

Interesting, so where does Doggerland come into play? Any idea which subclade that would be?

What about the Yamna?

bicicleur
27-03-17, 18:53
Interesting, so where does Doggerland come into play? Any idea which subclade that would be?

What about the Yamna?

TMRCA of haplogroup I2 is 22 ka
Doggerland drowned 14000 years later
It was full of different subclades of I2

Walhaz
27-03-17, 19:42
TMRCA of haplogroup I2 is 22 ka
Doggerland drowned 14000 years later
It was full of different subclades of I2

Thank you, that's exactly what I'm looking for. Do you know which subclades? I've read that I2a2a is one of them, but would like to verify - are there any reputable sources that aren't paywalled, besides EUpedia itself?

bicicleur
27-03-17, 20:49
Thank you, that's exactly what I'm looking for. Do you know which subclades? I've read that I2a2a is one of them, but would like to verify - are there any reputable sources that aren't paywalled, besides EUpedia itself?

I don't think any reliable sources exist on that.
Just look at Motala, 7.5 ka how many different subclades were around - many of them went extinct.

Walhaz
28-03-17, 17:50
So this is completely false?

"Haplogroup I-M438 Migration

Origin: I-M438 diverged from its brother haplogroup about 28,000 years ago. Then, at the end of the Ice Age about 12,000 to 14,000 years ago, I-M438 expanded northward from Doggerland and radiated outward from the Balkans into the eastern half of the continent. Today it is most abundant in eastern Europe and on the Mediterranean island of Sardinia, where it is found in 40% of the male population.

Highlight: Scientists speculate that I-M438 is associated with the ancient civilization of Doggerland. Doggerland, coined a real-life Atlantis, was a civilization in an area that is now covered by the North Sea."

From 23andme.

bicicleur
28-03-17, 18:24
i'm afraid so