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View Full Version : Volker Heyd paper on Bell Beakers-2017



Angela
04-04-17, 15:53
See:
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/kossinnas-smile/8ABA3BD9132B7605E8871236065CD4E3

Like most Cambridge Journals articles this is behind a pay wall. If it's open access could someone provide a link?

I don't see anything earth shattering here although there may be something in the paper itself. Despite the simplification that a lot of people in the amateur community engage in, and even some geneticists, this was not a simple process of Yamnaya people moving to northern and central Europe and between one day and the next abandoning their kurgans, adopting farming, and in effect changing their whole lifestyle.

He may be providing more evidence for Corded Ware ties to Iberia even before Bell Beaker, which would explain the pottery similarities?

"Two recent palaeogenetic studies have identified a movement of Yamnaya peoples from the Eurasian steppe to Central Europe in the third millennium BC. Their findings are reminiscent of Gustaf Kossinna's equation of ethnic identification with archaeological culture. Rather than a single genetic transmission from Yamnaya to the Central European Corded Ware Culture, there is considerable evidence for centuries of connections and interactions across the continent, as far as Iberia. The author concludes that although genetics has much to offer archaeology, there is also much to be learned in the other direction. This article should be read in conjunction with that by Kristiansen et al. (2017 (https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/kossinnas-smile/8ABA3BD9132B7605E8871236065CD4E3#ref015)), also in this issue."

LeBrok
04-04-17, 16:28
See:
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/kossinnas-smile/8ABA3BD9132B7605E8871236065CD4E3

Like most Cambridge Journals articles this is behind a pay wall. If it's open access could someone provide a link?

I don't see anything earth shattering here although there may be something in the paper itself. Despite the simplification that a lot of people in the amateur community engage in, and even some geneticists, this was not a simple process of Yamnaya people moving to northern and central Europe and between one day and the next abandoning their kurgans, adopting farming, and in effect changing their whole lifestyle. Bunch of conservatives. ;)


He may be providing more evidence for Corded Ware ties to Iberia even before Bell Beaker, which would explain the pottery similarities?

"Two recent palaeogenetic studies have identified a movement of Yamnaya peoples from the Eurasian steppe to Central Europe in the third millennium BC. Their findings are reminiscent of Gustaf Kossinna's equation of ethnic identification with archaeological culture. Rather than a single genetic transmission from Yamnaya to the Central European Corded Ware Culture, there is considerable evidence for centuries of connections and interactions across the continent, as far as Iberia. The author concludes that although genetics has much to offer archaeology, there is also much to be learned in the other direction. This article should be read in conjunction with that by Kristiansen et al. (2017 (https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/kossinnas-smile/8ABA3BD9132B7605E8871236065CD4E3#ref015)), also in this issue."



We might be getting to the bottom of Bell Beaker issue. I'll see what you guys figured out when I'm beck from work. Later.

bicicleur
04-04-17, 18:10
He may be providing more evidence for Corded Ware ties to Iberia even before Bell Beaker, which would explain the pottery similarities?

"Two recent palaeogenetic studies have identified a movement of Yamnaya peoples from the Eurasian steppe to Central Europe in the third millennium BC. Their findings are reminiscent of Gustaf Kossinna's equation of ethnic identification with archaeological culture. Rather than a single genetic transmission from Yamnaya to the Central European Corded Ware Culture, there is considerable evidence for centuries of connections and interactions across the continent, as far as Iberia. The author concludes that although genetics has much to offer archaeology, there is also much to be learned in the other direction. This article should be read in conjunction with that by Kristiansen et al. (2017 (https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/kossinnas-smile/8ABA3BD9132B7605E8871236065CD4E3#ref015)), also in this issue."


it's not clear from the abstract what he means
connections with Iberia through corded ware or directly from the Pontic steppe?
and which century did this start?

Ukko
05-04-17, 00:24
If you want it still Angela I have the paper.

Angela
05-04-17, 00:32
If you want it still Angela I have the paper.

Thank you for your courtesy, Ukko. Could you pm me the link? Thank you in advance if you can.

berun
05-04-17, 22:04
Well, it's time to go to the butchery:


This third ancestral group derives from the Eurasian steppe belt and is linked to the westward movement of Yamnaya populations, dated to c. 3000 BC (stated by both articles).

no, the papers said that a Yamnayan-like population was in the genetic origin of CWC; moreover that's quite evident from the Y-DNA side.


If it is so difficult to demonstrate archaeologically the smooth translation from Yamnaya to CWC, then there might perhaps be alternative or supplementary scenarios that fit the evidence.

good point at least, recognising the lack of proofs about a Yamnayan expansion to North Europe, by so Heyd needs to take GAC to justify a supposed previous expansion of Yamnayans... but the figures are pointing instead GAC infiltration into Yamnaya territory (?!).

Oh! it was a Bell Beaker paper and there is only a page speaking about it (354)...


Recent radiocarbon dates for the Bell Beaker emergence on the Iberian Peninsula (c. 2800–2700 BC; Cardoso 2014) are also very close to the earliest CWC dendrodates in eastern Switzerland of 2725 BC. This is in no way an accident, as Cassidy et al. (2016) have demonstrated in their Irish study that we are dealing with more profound and far-reaching turbulences.

The Swiss info has no value: first of all it corresponds to another culture that spread in a time of change; let's see per example the case of the contemporaneus spread of the Sea Peoples and the Urnfield culture: the Pelesht / Philistines spoke Celtic then?? it would be a ridiculous statement but it would be allowed to holy cows. The second case is that there are older dates in Iberia, so the fine suggestion of Heyd to link CWC and BB by time fails and exposes a lack of enough knowledge about the issue (but I can understand it taking into account the diversity of languages dealing with BB).


Something was changing dramatically at a Continental scale in the late fourth/early third millennium BC: the emergence of anthropomorphic stelae throughout Europe, including France and Iberia, is one indicator; the new flint and copper daggers and occasional hammer-axes in the west are a second; and the graves of men buried with such weapons—warriors—is a third

Again lack of knowledge, as there are anthopomorphic menhirs in the previous Megalithic cultures; copper daggers spread as the technology spread (as an archeologist he might know that the Iron Age was not the expansion of a unique language in Europe done by Iron techonology, Germans took it from Celts per example). And about males buried alone with weapons, it's what happens when the world becomes a hard place and you need to defend what you have.


Especially revealing is the recently discovered funerary complex—structure 10.042–10.049—of paramount status in
the PP4-Montelirio sector of the ‘mega-site’ of Valencina de la Concepción, deep in the
Iberian south (Seville; Garcia Sanjuán et al. 2013). Several features are strongly reminiscent
of Yamnaya/CWC graves: the date of 2875–2700 cal BC; the large barrow with burial
chamber; the individual male burial, crouched on his right-side, oriented east–west; the flint
dagger, and staining with red cinnabar pigment (Figure 3). The upper part of the chamber
and the immediate surroundings (PP4 10.029; 80m away) offer two other significant
artefacts: a long, oval African ivory ‘plate’ and a decorated gold sheet, both in the form
of ‘sandals’ (Murillo-Barroso et al. 2015: 588–89). Further such sandals, sandal soles or
sandal-shaped idols, as they are also called, made of ivory, bone or limestone, are recorded
from four other sites in southern Iberia. All are key sites of the Chalcolithic and are dated
to the first half of the third millennium BC.
These are fascinating features/artefacts, but they would be of little wider significance
if the contemporaneous European context did not have a really extraordinary parallel
to offer: foot-print/shoe/sandal-formed engravings on Yamnaya/kurgan stelae from the
Ukraine (Telegin & Mallory 1994), carved and erected some 4500km away (Figure 4).
Sandals are widely seen as symbolically loaded, with interpretations ranging from signs of
status, power and property to concepts (in a burial context) of walking out of the tomb,
towards the underworld in the case of sandal tips facing downwards (e.g.Mallory & Adams
1997). While we may only partly comprehend the symbolism, it is just one example of
pan-European interconnectivity in the early third millennium BC, centuries before the Bell
Beaker expansion around 2500 BC. This is what really matters, not the simple genetic
transmission from Yamnaya to CWC.

errrr... Heyd could add that Yamnayans and Beakers wore wear so it would be another proof of their relation. I find more entertaining crackpots explaining that Mayans were Egyptians (by erecting pyramids)...

And that's all the archaeological proofs linking the steppes with Bell Beakers, let's see the DNA proofs, let's make a good suovetaurilia, as the option left, Yamnayans riding sirens, would be too much crackpotery to read sober.

Coriolan
05-04-17, 22:41
Is this the much hyped paper that was supposed to test Iberian Beaker Y-DNA? If so, where is it?

berun
06-04-17, 07:01
This is not the paper, but you may see how the author tries to link desesperately BB to the steppes and the IE family. Why?

berun
06-04-17, 07:14
By the way his coleague Kristiansen and co. are suggesting that CWC was proto-Germanic... let's try to understand the spread of Germanic from CWC to Irish or Portuguese BB but only through R1b migrants.... errrr... well, better not to waste time thinking about such crackpotteries.

Fire Haired14
06-04-17, 09:02
Google "Corded Ware culture." and you'll find this sensationalized crap....

LiveScience: Culture Change: War Bands Hooked Up With Neolithic Farm Women (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj_hv_NoI_TAhUs7YMKHWSMD9oQqOcBCDIwAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.livescience.com%2F58555-corded-ware-culture-arose-from-intermarriages.html&usg=AFQjCNFnUCrLx3JryEgibbvCexEf6loHfw&sig2=XF2AOv8cshUItVirOJxXmw)
Daily Mail: How Stone Age farming women tamed nomadic warriors (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj_hv_NoI_TAhUs7YMKHWSMD9oQqOcBCDUwAw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fsciencetech %2Farticle-4380874%2FHow-Stone-Age-farming-women-tamed-migrant-warriors.html&usg=AFQjCNHrEFUy0jq-ODhkxaRUx3eeE8e_WQ&sig2=OjaVsaZFa1zuja1i9NZEgQ)