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tahir0010
16-04-17, 05:49
As the referendum is closing in starting tomorrow what are your opinions on Turkey's future. I am a supporter of Erdoğan, and the AK Parti as I think they have made great accomplishments economically in the country. People criticize Erdoğan, and say that he is a dictator. Atatürk imposed a dress code.... Yet people want to say Erdoğan is a dictator. How? Atatürk imposed a dress code, changed the language, dictated the religion, dictated whether or not women could wear hijab in school, and did nothing for the economy. This sounds more like a dictatorship then what Erdoğan, and Ak Parti has done. Under Erdoğan Turkey now has the fastest growing economy in the world. There export has increased 7 fold. It is one of the fastest growing G20 economies in the world, and is 16th richest country in GDP. Also Erdoğan plan is to be in the top by 2020, and with the economic growth of the g20 it seems this will be a possible goal. As our economy is growing at a tremendously fast rate. Also not a single Turkish bank failed after the credit crunch. Also what makes Anatolians so interesting is that we have combined social conservatism and piety with capitalism and the desire to exploit opportunities from globalization.

bicicleur
16-04-17, 09:09
Erdogan is claiming the last Turkish economical boom for himself, which makes him very popular.
He didn't create that boom, and it is over. Instead he has sewn the seeds of Turkish bankruptcy by financing his megalomane projects and by chasing away foreign investors. He is unable to pay back his debts and I think it will start with a new hyperinflation in Turkey.
In the mean time Erdogan tries to deflect the Turks attention elsewhere by using his agressive rhetoric to the outside world.
He has already eliminated the oposition and the critical press. I hope the Turks won't give him to much to much power, because when pay time will come, he might do some very dangerous moves.
Tell me, did Ataturk also put press and political oponents in jail? Did he also make you nostalgic to the Ottoman Empire?
When Erdogan is finished, Turkey will need a new Ataturk, just like after the bakruptcy of the Ottoman Empire.

LeBrok
16-04-17, 09:19
Down the toilet if they support the dictator Erdogan.

Yetos
16-04-17, 10:28
@ Tahir

Erdogan is a dangerous man,
in Turkey maybe is the best or the worst according what he does to Turks,
I am not a Turk to attack or to defend him, and if I was a Turk I would vote by the eyes of what he has done
but as concerning him at international level he is dangerous,
his 'big mouth' is isolating Turkey and brings polarization to Europe,

hope the best,
remember, it is Turks who decide the future of Turkey political map/constitution,
not a foreign power,
so hayir or evet, the future historian will write down if it was best or worse, but as a clear decision of Turkish people

but the last year military action against him,
the revence (revenge) acts
the Russia USA Europe diplomatic relations
etc etc is not good for Turkey
Polarization is not a good method,

tahir0010
16-04-17, 14:55
Erdogan is claiming the last Turkish economical boom for himself, which makes him very popular.
He didn't create that boom, and it is over. Instead he has sewn the seeds of Turkish bankruptcy by financing his megalomane projects and by chasing away foreign investors. He is unable to pay back his debts and I think it will start with a new hyperinflation in Turkey.
In the mean time Erdogan tries to deflect the Turks attention elsewhere by using his agressive rhetoric to the outside world.
He has already eliminated the oposition and the critical press. I hope the Turks won't give him to much to much power, because when pay time will come, he might do some very dangerous moves.
Tell me, did Ataturk also put press and political oponents in jail? Did he also make you nostalgic to the Ottoman Empire?
When Erdogan is finished, Turkey will need a new Ataturk, just like after the bakruptcy of the Ottoman Empire.

This is completely false in my opinion Atatürk did was way worse. How many religious scholars were put to death at the hands of that government? How many people were exiled. Why don't you read about the 80,000 Kurds killed in the Dersim Rebellion agains the government, and you want to sit here and criticize Erdogan give me a break. Also you are going to tell me that there has not been a economic rise in Turkey. This has been proven economically that Turkey is one of the strongest G20, and one of the strongest countries GDP wise in the world. Still to this day, and no the boom is not over they are still in the top 10 strongest G20 economies in the world, as of 2017. Also I am editing this part of the post, but Ataturk government controlled the media, so the CHP under the secular constitution I remember Erdogan was jailed of 10 months for reciting a poem, that by the way is taught in public schools. He was jailed for "breaking the secularism of Turkey." So CHP cannot speak about oppression.

tahir0010
16-04-17, 15:14
@ Tahir

Erdogan is a dangerous man,
in Turkey maybe is the best or the worst according what he does to Turks,
I am not a Turk to attack or to defend him, and if I was a Turk I would vote by the eyes of what he has done
but as concerning him at international level he is dangerous,
his 'big mouth' is isolating Turkey and brings polarization to Europe,

hope the best,
remember, it is Turks who decide the future of Turkey political map/constitution,
not a foreign power,
so hayir or evet, the future historian will write down if it was best or worse, but as a clear decision of Turkish people

but the last year military action against him,
the revence (revenge) acts
the Russia USA Europe diplomatic relations
etc etc is not good for Turkey
Polarization is not a good method,

@Yetos I agree with your point no person can say what is good for Turkey who is a not a Turk, as they are not the people living in the country. The people have continued to vote for AK Parti, and Erdogan so it seems that the majority of people in Turkey are happy with him. It would be the same with me trying to discuss politics in Greece. I can see it only from an outside view, and not from a internal prospective. If you do not live in the country it is hard to say what is good for a country. I do not think that secularism was good for the country, and was also extremely oppressive. This is my view, but I can see that the overwhelming majority of turks do support the current government.

bicicleur
16-04-17, 15:18
This is completely false in my opinion Atatürk did was way worse. How many religious scholars were put to death at the hands of that government? How many people were exiled. Why don't you read about the 80,000 Kurds killed in the Dersim Rebellion agains the government, and you want to sit here and criticize Erdogan give me a break.


the number of casualties you cite are grosely exaggerated, it was 14000 maximum, exiled were 12000
and do you know the circumstances under which it happened?
I understand Erdogan offered his sympathy to the victims
when will he recognize the Armenian genocide?

bicicleur
16-04-17, 15:25
@Yetos I agree with your point no person can say what is good for Turkey who is a not a Turk, as they are not the people living in the country. The people have continued to vote for AK Parti, and Erdogan so it seems that the majority of people in Turkey are happy with him. It would be the same with me trying to discuss politics in Greece. I can see it only from an outside view, and not from a internal prospective. If you do not live in the country it is hard to say what is good for a country.


why did you start this thread here on Eupedia then?

LeBrok
16-04-17, 17:22
@Yetos I agree with your point no person can say what is good for Turkey who is a not a Turk, as they are not the people living in the country. The people have continued to vote for AK Parti, and Erdogan so it seems that the majority of people in Turkey are happy with him. It would be the same with me trying to discuss politics in Greece. I can see it only from an outside view, and not from a internal prospective. If you do not live in the country it is hard to say what is good for a country. I do not think that secularism was good for the country, and was also extremely oppressive. This is my view, but I can see that the overwhelming majority of turks do support the current government.Oh yes we can. See, Europe already experimented with many forms of political and economic systems. We know what works, and what doesn't. Study European history and you will know too.

DuPidh
16-04-17, 18:41
I think he is winning! Huge step forward for Turkey! Big countries like Turkey is hard to govern in parliamentary way! Consensus is not in Southern Europe DNA. Erdogan appears to be a real reformer. Only Germany and England could be run as parliamentarian democracies for the reason of their people being disciplined. Had Italy been a presidential democracy wood have succeeded all Europeans economically for the reason of talented people they have.

bicicleur
16-04-17, 18:52
I think he is winning! Huge step forward for Turkey! Big countries like Turkey is hard to govern in parliamentary way! Consensus is not in Southern Europe DNA. Erdogan appears to be a real reformer. Only Germany and England could be run as parliamentarian democracies for the reason of their people being disciplined. Had Italy been a presidential democracy wood have succeeded all Europeans economically for the reason of talented people they have.

tell me about his reforms
I feel like I'm missing something here

Bergin
16-04-17, 19:55
I think he is winning! Huge step forward for Turkey! Big countries like Turkey is hard to govern in parliamentary way! Consensus is not in Southern Europe DNA. Erdogan appears to be a real reformer. Only Germany and England could be run as parliamentarian democracies for the reason of their people being disciplined. Had Italy been a presidential democracy wood have succeeded all Europeans economically for the reason of talented people they have.

I think that the choice between parliamentary or presidential republic is worth considering.

It would have been very nice if Erdogan would not have made it a personal choice by declaring his retirement. I think that the presence of Erdogan as a key player has influenced people while the decision will have broad consequences also in the long term (50 - 100 years).

So one question remains: will he candidate for president if the referendum passes? Clearly, if he doesn't it provides huge legitimacy to the process in the public eyes.

DuPidh
16-04-17, 19:56
tell me about his reforms
I feel like I'm missing something here

Don't listen to international propaganda! Turkey is not a liberal democracy, its a conservative democracy! As such you don't expect nudity or legal prostitution, as Canada is for instance! Democracy is not one size fit all! This is their way where the people are asked to express their opinion. All he has to do is surround himself with Harvard educated people and improve the economy.

bicicleur
16-04-17, 21:19
so, no reforms

Yetos
16-04-17, 22:02
Don't listen to international propaganda! Turkey is not a liberal democracy, its a conservative democracy! As such you don't expect nudity or legal prostitution, as Canada is for instance! Democracy is not one size fit all! This is their way where the people are asked to express their opinion. All he has to do is surround himself with Harvard educated people and improve the economy.

Hahaha

nice joke, :lmao:

All ministers and prime ministers of Greece had Harvard or Yale consouls
and many of them finished Harvard
and the result you can see it,
take Harvard and Yale educated and in ten years you destroy the country :bored:

i go to wash my mouth and hands,
I spell and wrote evil words

tahir0010
16-04-17, 22:28
so, no reforms

No there are many reforms. I will include all the policies that will change from the referendum. Which was very close, and was a real nail bitter.

1
Article 9
The judiciary is required to act on condition of impartiality.


2
Article 75
The number of seats in the Parliament (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_National_Assembly_of_Turkey) is raised from 550 to 600.


3
Article 76
The age requirement to stand as a candidate in an election to be lowered from 25 to 18, while the condition of having to complete compulsory military service is to be removed. Individuals with relations to the military would be ineligible to run for election.


4
Article 77
Parliamentary terms are extended from four to five years. Parliamentary and presidential elections (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Turkey) will be held on the same day every five years, with presidential elections going to a run-off if no candidate wins a simple majority (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majority) in the first round.


5
Article 87
The functions of Parliament are

Making, changing, removing laws.
Accepting international contracts.
Discuss, increase or decrease budget (on Budget Commission) and accept or reject the budget on General Assembly.
Appoint 7 members of HSYK
And using other powers written in the constitution




5
Article 89
To overcome a presidential veto, the Parliament needs to adopt the same bill with an absolute majority (301).


6
Article 98
Parliament now detects cabinet and Vice President (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vice_President) with Parliamentary Research, Parliamentary Investigation, General Discussion and Written Question. Interpellation is abolished and replaced with Parliamentary Investigation. VP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vice_President) needs to answer Written Questions within 15 days.


7
Article 101
In order to stand as a presidential candidate, an individual requires the endorsement of one or more parties that won 5% or more in the preceding parliamentary elections and 100,000 voters. The elected president no longer needs to terminate their party membership if they have one.


8
Article 104
The President becomes both the head of state and head of government, with the power to appoint and sack ministers and VP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vice_President). The president can issue decrees about executive. If legislation makes a law about the same topic that President issued an executive order, decree will become invalid and parliamentary law become valid.


9
Article 105
Parliament can open parliamentary investigation with an absolute majority (301). Parliament discusses proposal in 1 month. Following the completion of Discussion, Parliamentary investigation can begin in Parliament with a hidden three-fifths (360) vote in favor. Following the completion of investigations, the parliament can vote to indict the President with a hidden two-thirds (400) vote in favor.


10
Article 106
The President can appoint one or more Vice Presidents. If the Presidency falls vacant, then fresh presidential elections must be held within 45 days. If parliamentary elections are due within less than a year, then they too are held on the same day as early presidential elections. If the parliament has over a year left before its term expires, then the newly elected president serves until the end of the parliamentary term, after which both presidential and parliamentary elections are held. This does not count towards the President's two-term limit. Parliamentary investigations into possible crimes committed by Vice Presidents and ministers can begin in Parliament with a three-fifths vote in favor. Following the completion of investigations, the parliament can vote to indict Vice Presidents or ministers with a two-thirds vote in favor. If found guilty, the Vice President or minister in question is only removed from office if their crime is one that bars them from running for election. If a sitting MP is appointed as a minister or Vice President, their parliamentary membership will be terminated.


11
Article 116
The President and three-fifths of the Parliament can decide to renew elections. In this case, the enactor also dissolves itself until elections.


12
Article 119
The President's ability to declare state of emergency (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_emergency) is now subject to parliamentary approval to take effect. The Parliament can extend, remove or shorten it. States of emergency can be extended for up to four months at a time except during war, where no such limitation will be required. Every presidential decree issues during a state of emergency (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_emergency) will need an approval of Parliament.


13
Article 125
The acts of the President are now subject to judicial review.


13
Article 142
Military courts are abolished unless they are erected to investigate actions of soldiers under conditions of war.


13
Article 146
The President (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Turkey) used to appoint one Justice from High Military Court of Appeals, and one from the High Military Administrative Court. As military courts are abolished, the number of Justices in the Constitutional Court (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_Court_of_Turkey) reduced to 15 from 17. Consequently, presidential appointees reduced to 12 from 14, while the Parliament (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_National_Assembly_of_Turkey) continues to appoint three.


14
Article 159
Supreme Board of Judges and Prosecutors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Board_of_Judges_and_Prosecutors) is renamed to "Board of Judges and Prosecutors", members are reduced to 13 from 22, departments are reduced to 2 from 3. 4 members are appointed by President, 7 will be appointed by the Grand Assembly. Supreme Board of Judges and Prosecutors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Board_of_Judges_and_Prosecutors) (HSYK) candidates will need to get 2/3 (400) votes to pass first round and will need 3/5 (360) votes in second round to be a member of HSYK.(Other 2 members are Justice Minister (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Justice_(Turkey)) and Ministry of Justice Undersecretary, which is unchanged).


15
Article 161
President proposes fiscal budget to Grand Assembly 75 days prior to fiscal new year. Budget Commission members can make changes to budget but Parliamentary members cannot make proposals to change public expenditures. If the budget is not approved, then a temporary budget will be proposed. If the temporary budget is also not approved, the previous year's budget would be used with the previous year's increment ratio.[note 1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_constitutional_referendum,_2017#cite_note-18)


16
Several articles
Adaptation of several articles of the constitution with other changes, mainly transferring executive powers of cabinet to President


16
Article 123
President gets power to create States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federated_state).


17
Temporary Article 21
Next presidential (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_presidential_election,_2019) and General elections (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_general_election,_2019) will be held on 3 November 2019. If Grand Assembly decides early elections, both will be held at the same day. Board of Judges and Prosecutors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Board_of_Judges_and_Prosecutors) elections will be made within 30 days of approval of this law. Military courts will be abolished once the law comes into force.


18
Applicability of amendments 1-17
The amendments (2, 4 and 7) will come into force after new elections, other amendments (except temporary article) will come into force once newly elected president swears. Annulled the article which elected Presidents loses their memberships in a political party. This constitutional amendment will be voted in a referendum as a whole.

Coriolan
16-04-17, 22:42
The BBC is a nice feature article about the reforms proposed by the referendum. Here are the key points.

1. Prime minster role scrapped, new vice president role created

2. President becomes head of government as well as state, and can retain political party ties

3. President given sweeping powers, with ability to enact laws by decree and dismiss parliament

4. Parliament no longer able to scrutinise ministers

5. Parliament given limited powers to investigate or impeach president


Sounds like all the steps needed toward dictatorship.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/Erdogans_Turkey

LeBrok
16-04-17, 22:55
The BBC is a nice feature article about the reforms proposed by the referendum. Here are the key points.

1. Prime minster role scrapped, new vice president role created

2. President becomes head of government as well as state, and can retain political party ties

3. President given sweeping powers, with ability to enact laws by decree and dismiss parliament

4. Parliament no longer able to scrutinise ministers

5. Parliament given limited powers to investigate or impeach president


Sounds like all the steps needed toward dictatorship.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/Erdogans_Turkey
And presidential election is only every 12 years, right?

tahir0010
16-04-17, 23:00
Correct, but I do not think that is a big issue, as the people have continued to elect Ak Parti, and even though Ak Parti won 51 percent to 48 it was the difference of a million votes, and the entire population did not vote I think the voters were only at 48 Million and Turkey has inside a population of 75 million. The people still chose the referendum. The people I believe will reelect Erdogan. As you can see from this referendum people in Turkey are happy with him.

Boreas
17-04-17, 06:45
... and did nothing for the economy.

Just Shame On You.

After this comment, you are not worth to talk.

tahir0010
17-04-17, 07:08
Just Shame On You.

After this comment, you are not worth to talk.

You are really going to sit here, and tell me that Ataturk advanced the government more then Erdogan please. This would be a ridiculous statement. You are also going to sit here, and tell me that Ataturk Parliamentary system was a good idea.... Where was Turkey at the time of Ataturk? What did he do were we a G20 nation.... No we weren't. Did Turkey have self reliance no we didn't. Did Turkey have a strong GDP no they did not. This is exactly why no one votes for CHP, and AK Parti holds the 317 seats in parliament and CHP holds only 133. CHP, and the kemalist idea is a flowed ideology that was never bound to prosper. Turkey is spreading the wealth, the trade has increased 7 fold with the Middle East. That is 32 billion dollars annually just from Trade with the Middle East, and you seriously want to sit here, and criticize that statement. These are facts Turkey economy is 10x stronger now under Ak Parti then it has ever been under CHP. Under AK Parti we have built 70% of Kazakhstans new capital. What did CHP do? What project did they do? Our economic growth rates, and the projects that we have done have grown our economy largely. These outside projects are one of the ways that we make money, as other economies pay us for building there economy so it is a steady flow of money for Turkey. Also AK Parti has spread the wealth with the people of Turkey, and the wage in Turkey under Ak Parti has more then I want to say tripled but I believe that it has doubled.. The statement I made holds truth I could have worded it better, but CHP and Kemalist idea have not advanced the country as much as AK Parti. You can say they founded the Turkish Republic, but look at Turkey in the 70s I think it was that parts of Istanbul did not even have full running water. Now look at Turkey today.

bicicleur
17-04-17, 14:01
You are really going to sit here, and tell me that Ataturk advanced the government more then Erdogan please. This would be a ridiculous statement. You are also going to sit here, and tell me that Ataturk Parliamentary system was a good idea.... Where was Turkey at the time of Ataturk? What did he do were we a G20 nation.... No we weren't. Did Turkey have self reliance no we didn't. Did Turkey have a strong GDP no they did not. This is exactly why no one votes for CHP, and AK Parti holds the 317 seats in parliament and CHP holds only 133. CHP, and the kemalist idea is a flowed ideology that was never bound to prosper. Turkey is spreading the wealth, the trade has increased 7 fold with the Middle East. That is 32 billion dollars annually just from Trade with the Middle East, and you seriously want to sit here, and criticize that statement. These are facts Turkey economy is 10x stronger now under Ak Parti then it has ever been under CHP. Under AK Parti we have built 70% of Kazakhstans new capital. What did CHP do? What project did they do? Our economic growth rates, and the projects that we have done have grown our economy largely. These outside projects are one of the ways that we make money, as other economies pay us for building there economy so it is a steady flow of money for Turkey. Also AK Parti has spread the wealth with the people of Turkey, and the wage in Turkey under Ak Parti has more then I want to say tripled but I believe that it has doubled.. The statement I made holds truth I could have worded it better, but CHP and Kemalist idea have not advanced the country as much as AK Parti. You can say they founded the Turkish Republic, but look at Turkey in the 70s I think it was that parts of Istanbul did not even have full running water. Now look at Turkey today.

Ataturk restored Turkey after it was bankrupt.
Erdogan will make Turkey bankrupt after an era of prosperity.
I won't pitty the Turks that support Erdogan now, I'm sorry for those who don't want all this but get dragged into it.
Pride has gotten in the way of common sense here.
Erdogan has falsified the economic figures for 2016 but you're just hearing what you like to hear.
And when Erdogan won't be able to hide the truth any more he'll make up a conspiracy theory of the west being against Turkey.
You'll wake up when it will be to late.

P.S just check the economic figures about Turkey from a source which is undependent of Erdogan

LeBrok
17-04-17, 18:16
Ataturk restored Turkey after it was bankrupt.
Erdogan will make Turkey bankrupt after an era of prosperity.
I won't pitty the Turks that support Erdogan now, I'm sorry for those who don't want all this but get dragged into it.
Pride has gotten in the way of common sense here.
Erdogan has falsified the economic figures for 2016 but you're just hearing what you like to hear.
And when Erdogan won't be able to hide the truth any more he'll make up a conspiracy theory of the west being against Turkey.
You'll wake up when it will be to late.

P.S just check the economic figures about Turkey from a source which is undependent of Erdogan The best example how it will go down the hill is a recent story of one modern dictator, "Viva Chavez!".

LABERIA
17-04-17, 18:31
Correct, but I do not think that is a big issue, as the people have continued to elect Ak Parti, and even though Ak Parti won 51 percent to 48 it was the difference of a million votes, and the entire population did not vote I think the voters were only at 48 Million and Turkey has inside a population of 75 million. The people still chose the referendum. The people I believe will reelect Erdogan. As you can see from this referendum people in Turkey are happy with him.

Apart the irregularities that have occurred, we have to add one other thing. Big cities have voted against Erdogan.

Yetos
17-04-17, 18:41
I do not think Erdogan will follow Chavez,

Erdogan is like one of the ring holders,

http://simplylife.gr/images/the_lord_of_the_rings3.gif



I think his mania with 'big things',
will drive him to a wrong desicion,
his 'big mouth' already revealed who are his targets,

I think Turkey is huge to cover the food needs, and industrial strong enough, so not to become like a Latin America country,
but I think Erdogan's megalomania will drive him to start a war, even a civil one
after all, by the end of Arab spring he is the one left to become the defender of Islam,
although Turkey is by far a Western country than others, yet is also so near Near-Middle East countries than any Western country,

I hope to finish his duty peacefully and resign,
his name passed to History,
and the future historian will write his name as the reformer from parliamental to a presidential democracy
but if his ambitious drive him to climb more,
a war is certain.

a simple referendum on if state should be presidential or parliamental
via the polarization, mess up Turkey and EU,
and become a subject of division in Turkey and EU.
reminds old days after the civil war in Greece, which even the echo returns as ghost
that is not a wise method-policy, to divide people for a simple question.

I am not a Turkish citizen,
so to decide if it is good or bad for Turkey,
but I think Turkey needs political stability, and calm
and not polarization.

LeBrok
17-04-17, 18:50
What baffles me the most, is why the heck half of the society votes against democracy to elect the tyrant?!!! We have seen it in Venezuela and in Russia, no in Turkey. One is already a bankrupt and a mess, Russia is slowly going there, opposition is killed off, mass media controlled and economy sinking, same is happening in Turkey, I predict that Turkey and Russia will have a revolution in 10-20 years.

Angela
17-04-17, 19:05
What baffles me the most, is why the heck half of the society votes against democracy to elect the tyrant?!!! We have seen it in Venezuela and in Russia, no in Turkey. One is already a bankrupt and a mess, Russia is slowly going there, opposition is killed off, mass media controlled and economy sinking, same is happening in Turkey, I predict that Turkey and Russia will have a revolution in 10-20 years.

Insanity can be defined as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. When will people learn? I feel really badly for the Turks, particularly the educated, urban Turks who voted against this.

Yes, Attaturk may not have given them much choice, but he was trying to drag them into the 20th century. Now they're voting to go back to the Middle Ages. It's crazy.

How long will it be before it will be another Iran or Afghanistan in terms of religious liberty, women's rights, human rights in general? It's like a death wish.

Political Islam is one of the most destructive forces in the world. I'm sorry to say it, but that's what I think. The Turkish people, and the ones I've met have been very nice indeed, deserve better.

Boreas
17-04-17, 20:34
You are really going to sit here, and tell me that Ataturk advanced the government more then Erdogan please. This would be a ridiculous statement. You are also going to sit here, and tell me that Ataturk Parliamentary system was a good idea.... Where was Turkey at the time of Ataturk? What did he do were we a G20 nation.... No we weren't. Did Turkey have self reliance no we didn't. Did Turkey have a strong GDP no they did not. This is exactly why no one votes for CHP, and AK Parti holds the 317 seats in parliament and CHP holds only 133. CHP, and the kemalist idea is a flowed ideology that was never bound to prosper. Turkey is spreading the wealth, the trade has increased 7 fold with the Middle East. That is 32 billion dollars annually just from Trade with the Middle East, and you seriously want to sit here, and criticize that statement. These are facts Turkey economy is 10x stronger now under Ak Parti then it has ever been under CHP. Under AK Parti we have built 70% of Kazakhstans new capital. What did CHP do? What project did they do? Our economic growth rates, and the projects that we have done have grown our economy largely. These outside projects are one of the ways that we make money, as other economies pay us for building there economy so it is a steady flow of money for Turkey. Also AK Parti has spread the wealth with the people of Turkey, and the wage in Turkey under Ak Parti has more then I want to say tripled but I believe that it has doubled.. The statement I made holds truth I could have worded it better, but CHP and Kemalist idea have not advanced the country as much as AK Parti. You can say they founded the Turkish Republic, but look at Turkey in the 70s I think it was that parts of Istanbul did not even have full running water. Now look at Turkey today.

I am really enjoying to read it and feel bad for you. As I said, you are not worth anything. I won't want to discuss with you, Ataturk's production base economical system and AKP's build sell system. Even you are a guy who have said Ataturk didn't do anything for economy, Oh shitt, It is really unbelievable.

---------------------------------------------------------------

@Angela and othersSeeing how Le Pen and Geert Wilders are getting stronger and stronger and remember TRUMP; you are living also same nightmare. Don't even think that you are in better position.

LABERIA
17-04-17, 20:50
What baffles me the most, is why the heck half of the society votes against democracy to elect the tyrant?!!! We have seen it in Venezuela and in Russia, no in Turkey. One is already a bankrupt and a mess, Russia is slowly going there, opposition is killed off, mass media controlled and economy sinking, same is happening in Turkey, I predict that Turkey and Russia will have a revolution in 10-20 years.

For the same reason why authoritarian leader always took power throughout history. The inability of the moderate elites of the country to give a solution to the problems of the country.

bicicleur
17-04-17, 20:52
I am really enjoying to read it and feel bad for you. As I said, you are not worth anything. I won't want to discuss with you, Ataturk's production base economical system and AKP's build sell system. Even you are a guy who have said Ataturk didn't do anything for economy, Oh shitt, It is really unbelievable.

---------------------------------------------------------------

@Angela and othersSeeing how Le Pen and Geert Wilders are getting stronger and stronger and remember TRUMP; you are living also same nightmare. Don't even think that you are in better position.

I'm sorry, but what is happening in Turkey is much worse.
Erdogan has silenced critical press and put oposition in jail.
His next move is to become president with dictatorial power.
Le Pen and Wilders are still far away from that and Trump even doesn't have the ambition to get there.

DuPidh
17-04-17, 22:02
I'm sorry, but what is happening in Turkey is much worse.
Erdogan has silenced critical press and put oposition in jail.
His next move is to become president with dictatorial power.
Le Pen and Wilders are still far away from that and Trump even doesn't have the ambition to get there.

Erdogan will be fine! The best thing about him is that he knows what his strengths are. He depends on the West for many of his moves. If his economy stalls the opposition to him will be strong. What he is looking right now is a law to hang about 250 guys who wanted to remove him by force in the latest coup.

Yetos
17-04-17, 22:40
Erdogan will be fine! The best thing about him is that he knows what his strengths are. He depends on the West for many of his moves. If his economy stalls the opposition to him will be strong. What he is looking right now is a law to hang about 250 guys who wanted to remove him by force in the latest coup.



and I thought that in Cuba they hate West and Capitalism

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

I wonder what would Fidel could say about?????

LABERIA
17-04-17, 22:53
I'm sorry, but what is happening in Turkey is much worse.
Erdogan has silenced critical press and put oposition in jail.
His next move is to become president with dictatorial power.
Le Pen and Wilders are still far away from that and Trump even doesn't have the ambition to get there.

Because Le Pen is not in power. If she win, will be the same.

tahir0010
18-04-17, 05:28
I am really enjoying to read it and feel bad for you. As I said, you are not worth anything. I won't want to discuss with you, Ataturk's production base economical system and AKP's build sell system. Even you are a guy who have said Ataturk didn't do anything for economy, Oh shitt, It is really unbelievable.

---------------------------------------------------------------

@Angela and othersSeeing how Le Pen and Geert Wilders are getting stronger and stronger and remember TRUMP; you are living also same nightmare. Don't even think that you are in better position.

Whether you agree with me or not the people have voted, and more then half the population would disagree with you now.

LABERIA
18-04-17, 06:14
Whether you agree with me or not the people have voted, and more then half the population would disagree with you now.

OK, but this man is from 1994 in power and pretend to stay until 2029. In my opinion this is a problem for you. And let's not forget that there were some irregularities during the referendum.

bicicleur
18-04-17, 08:12
Because Le Pen is not in power. If she win, will be the same.

she'll never have the power like Erdogan

Boreas
18-04-17, 08:40
Whether you agree with me or not the people have voted, and more then half the population would disagree with you now.

and nearly other half doesn't will under the new constitution, and AGIT gave his report which says there was inequality in the election.

So don't try to look a guy who plays the game by rules.

Even Erdoğan had to be neutral during the election according to his oath and law. But he didn't, he clearly attended Yes camping.

I hope that this will be one of the key stone of division of Turkey.

My Heart has already beated for another flag. Keep your blood flag to you !!! I don't want or care the martyrs, the only thing I cared is the things which martyrs die for such as freedom.
8632

As II Mehmet said (conquer or Constantinople)

"When you kill the wisdom, ethic dies
When wisdom and ethic die, nation divides
When the day you buy the judge, justice dies,
When justice die, state dies."

LABERIA
18-04-17, 10:29
she'll never have the power like Erdogan

You are wrong. She will be worse than Erdogan. Erdogan didn't started as a dictator but as "strong" man. Now with this referendum, in my opinion he passed the red line.
Meanwhile Le Pen, is a fascist.
About the power, even Erdogan did not had so much power at the beginning. But later many things changed. There is always a starting point followed by the dynamic of the events. These people don't represent only themselves. They represent groups of interests and they arrive to the power by exploiting popular discontent. It's a movie that we have see many times during the history.

Boreas
18-04-17, 11:35
she'll never have the power like Erdogan

That's sounds like, "TRUMP is just a joke"

https://quotefancy.com/media/wallpaper/1600x900/8750-George-Carlin-Quote-Never-underestimate-the-power-of-stupid-people.jpg

Yetos
18-04-17, 12:11
Guys

personally I wrote many times in the forum 4 things about Erdogan and Turkey

1 he is a billionaire with many construction companies

2 he loves Islamic Turkey, and I am certain he will do the best he can for Turks,

3 I am not afraid him in the national level, he even defend a military action, although he must stop with his reveanging acts like death penalty,
wich makes him protector of democracy, either parliamental either presidential, but he must not turn his face to a vengeangefull beast,
he must stop polarization, and unify Turks

4 I am afraid Erdogan at the international level, his ambitious might drive him to start a cold war with EU even USA or even an open war, etc etc

Erdogan has enough money, so his grand grand grand children live in luxury, he doesn't care any more for money
Erdogan is after the ring of Glory, ​that is what frightens me, he already posses the ring of power,

LeBrok
18-04-17, 16:28
she'll never have the power like ErdoganEven Trump doesn't have power as Erdogan or Putin do. South Korea shows recently how real democracy works. If president does wrong, he/she can be investigated, removed and prosecuted. It will never happen in Turkey or Russia now. "Viva Chavez!"

LeBrok
18-04-17, 16:31
and nearly other half doesn't will under the new constitution, and AGIT gave his report which says there was inequality in the election.

So don't try to look a guy who plays the game by rules.

Even Erdoğan had to be neutral during the election according to his oath and law. But he didn't, he clearly attended Yes camping.

I hope that this will be one of the key stone of division of Turkey.

My Heart has already beated for another flag. Keep your blood flag to you !!! I don't want or care the martyrs, the only thing I cared is the things which martyrs die for such as freedom.
8632

As II Mehmet said (conquer or Constantinople)

"When you kill the wisdom, ethic dies
When wisdom and ethic die, nation divides
When the day you buy the judge, justice dies,
When justice die, state dies." Amen brother.

LeBrok
18-04-17, 16:33
Guys

personally I wrote many times in the forum 4 things about Erdogan and Turkey

1 he is a billionaire with many construction companies

2 he loves Islamic Turkey, and I am certain he will do the best he can for Turks,

3 I am not afraid him in the national level, he even defend a military action, although he must stop with his reveanging acts like death penalty,
wich makes him protector of democracy, either parliamental either presidential, but he must not turn his face to a vengeangefull beast,
he must stop polarization, and unify Turks

4 I am afraid Erdogan at the international level, his ambitious might drive him to start a cold war with EU even USA or even an open war, etc etc

Erdogan has enough money, so his grand grand grand children live in luxury, he doesn't care any more for money
Erdogan is after the ring of Glory, ​that is what frightens me, he already posses the ring of power,
You forgot to mention his dictatorial and tyrannical character. ;) And remember, strength in home, gives Erdogan and Putin power to do mess abroad.

Blanco
18-04-17, 16:54
Erdogan will be doing good as long as his policy will support the needs of Israel and US in a nutshell. He can kill as much Kurds as he wishes to if he help Israel to destabilize the Syrian regime.

DuPidh
18-04-17, 17:35
Even Trump doesn't have power as Erdogan or Putin do. South Korea shows recently how real democracy works. If president does wrong, he/she can be investigated, removed and prosecuted. It will never happen in Turkey or Russia now. "Viva Chavez!"

OK. But what makes you think he is not going to make good for his country with all the power he has. He could be effective as economy and stability matters. He could be good for Balkans if his companies have enough money to spend around. Have you ever asked yourself why the USA is an effective country? Powers of the president might be a cause

bicicleur
18-04-17, 20:29
OK. But what makes you think he is not going to make good for his country with all the power he has. He could be effective as economy and stability matters. He could be good for Balkans if his companies have enough money to spend around. Have you ever asked yourself why the USA is an effective country? Powers of the president might be a cause

he is a liar, and he gets away with that inside Turkey
he is installing the same regime like Putin, putting press and oposition in jail

LeBrok
19-04-17, 06:04
OK. But what makes you think he is not going to make good for his country with all the power he has. He could be effective as economy and stability matters. He could be good for Balkans if his companies have enough money to spend around. Have you ever asked yourself why the USA is an effective country? Powers of the president might be a causeYou know what is good about dictators? If I was one, I would put you in jail. Heck, you wouldn't need to break the law, I just don't like your opinion on almost anything.
How many examples of successful countries you have run by dictators? Emuse us with your list.

Diomedes
19-04-17, 17:39
Any instability in Turkey will create great turbulences to the country, its people, and neighbours. I feel Turkey will be isolated, at least by the liberal powers of the Western world, and will turn to others (see Russia) to form coalitions.

In any case, geopolitics have changed. There is a clear dichotomy in the Turkish society about this matter.

I personally disagree when a person is elected more than two times as a president or prime-minister.

Bergin
19-04-17, 22:09
Any instability in Turkey will create great turbulences to the country, its people, and neighbours. I feel Turkey will be isolated, at least by the liberal powers of the Western world, and will turn to others (see Russia) to form coalitions.

In any case, geopolitics have changed. There is a clear dichotomy in the Turkish society about this matter.

I personally disagree when a person is elected more than two times as a president or prime-minister.


Your interpretation has some good points. On the other side, one has also to look at the past choices turkey has made in the recent history.
They managed to stay out of WW2 and out of the cold war. I suppose they will just follow the same path without picking parts - and they do have quite a good track of records of avoiding burning scenarios.
Yet there are things that are very unclear to me, like the increased islamisation. This erdogan is pretty unpredictable in his next moves.

Yetos
19-04-17, 23:55
Your interpretation has some good points. On the other side, one has also to look at the past choices turkey has made in the recent history.
They managed to stay out of WW2 and out of the cold war. I suppose they will just follow the same path without picking parts - and they do have quite a good track of records of avoiding burning scenarios.
Yet there are things that are very unclear to me, like the increased islamisation. This erdogan is pretty unpredictable in his next moves.



Turkey was at cold war, she a member of expanded NATO from 51 if remember correct.

as for WW2 they follow Kemal's system, and they had no choice,
remember the Sykes-Piquot treaty was not performed as suppossed to be even 1940's
and 2-3 decades from Arab revolt, and before 1948 when England and France still were Allies of Arabs, and had troops all over Arab lands and colonies.
it was suicide for Turkey to enter war either as axis power,
since their traditional ally was Deutschland and Austria at WW1,
it was easier for them to enter with allies, but that ment surely an attack to Bulgaria and Romania and alliance with Greece,
so Kemalists that ruled Turkey that time follow the path of neutrality.
I agree that Erdogan might be unpredicted,
but Turkey of Kemalists was predicted,
they wouldn't even attack Cyprus, if Kissinger did not exist.

the big problem of Turkey was around Menteres times, and around 1973 if remember correct,
the epigonoi of Kemal expressed mainly by generals who only got richer and richer,
by time they manage to narrow-weaken their power and politicians took the upper hand
but still at Turkey there are paramilitary powers which Erdogan can not control
and has their annexation.

the opponents of Kemal have big right/correct in one thing,
Kemal trusted too much the army, so he gave enormous power to generals
it needed Menteres to start a new policy to open economy,
but he ended 'hunged',
the more the limited the power of generals, the more Turkey's economy raised,
so the presidential democracy to Turkey, is not obvious how it will work.
lets hope the unpredicted Erdogan as you name him,and I agree, surprises us peacefully, and not with a war.
I am afraid his mania for glory. not his love for power and Ottoman Turkey.

on the other hand if Erdogan manages to pass the death penalty,
then we have other situations,
combining this with the who knows millions of Turks who were investigated or went to jail, only for a possiblity of being suspicious with the military action against him,
is not making Erdogan very poppular,
how come a person who works at an office at electric corporation for example, or an elementary teacher be connected to the military action... only he knows,
Stalin in order to rule and succed invented traitors and enemies,
I do not know, and I can not see more,
the man is hero since he escape the military action, the man is speaking what the people want to hear, and the man is sending to prison and investigations millions like the Jundas or the Communist in Russia of Stalin,
he is a phainomenon, don't you think?

he manage to give pride and hope to the most poor and insignificant Turk
and same time he prisons the other poor and insignificant Turk

Boreas
21-04-17, 07:08
8635

The point where democracy dies

bicicleur
21-04-17, 08:03
8635

The point where democracy dies

you need a 3rd colour for those who couldn't vote because Erdogan put them in jail

LABERIA
21-04-17, 09:14
Where is tahir 0010?

LeBrok
21-04-17, 17:22
Where is tahir 0010?He did his job agitating Yes side before election, and he is gone. I wouldn't be surprised if he was paid employee of Erdogan. His "name" was so generic, like invented by a bureaucrat for only one reason.

Boreas
21-04-17, 21:35
He did his job agitating Yes side before election, and he is gone. I wouldn't be surprised if he was paid employee of Erdogan. His "name" was so generic, like invented by a bureaucrat for only one reason.

May I take your name analyse for myself?

DuPidh
21-04-17, 23:20
you need a 3rd colour for those who couldn't vote because Erdogan put them in jail

Yep! Accurate map! Erdogan has deep religious roots and his folks always deliver for him! It will be hard to uproot him for whatever reason. This is the deficiency of democracy! I always thought that one person one vote is the wrong way to go. The vote of a homeless person and the one of a academic weigh the same. It should not be like that! Should be different weight of vote for different people.

Bergin
22-04-17, 01:05
Yep! Accurate map! Erdogan has deep religious roots and his folks always deliver for him! It will be hard to uproot him for whatever reason. This is the deficiency of democracy! I always thought that one person one vote is the wrong way to go. The vote of a homeless person and the one of a academic weigh the same. It should not be like that! Should be different weight of vote for different people.

Oh man, let go this medieval elitism.