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Angela
24-04-17, 20:16
Any ideas about this split? Are there more Muslims in the eastern areas?

http://cdn6.24live.co/images/2017/04/24/1492980256483400.jpg

Promenade
25-04-17, 01:15
There are more muslims in the east, specifically the areas around the Mediterranean, the south east alpine region, Alsace and the North east near Belgium. The association is clear, only in the capital region is this association broken between amount of muslims and FN support.

The areas that voted for Macron are the same areas that supported Hollande which makes sense since Macron was formerly a member of the socialiste party.

I would post some images to help you visualize this, but I can never seem to get it to work.

Angela
25-04-17, 02:19
There are more muslims in the east, specifically the areas around the Mediterranean, the south east alpine region, Alsace and the North east near Belgium. The association is clear, only in the capital region is this association broken between amount of muslims and FN support.

The areas that voted for Macron are the same areas that supported Hollande which makes sense since Macron was formerly a member of the socialiste party.

I would post some images to help you visualize this, but I can never seem to get it to work.

That's what I thought based on what I know of Marseilles, Provence etc. You also have to understand how this works in a societal context; it's usually areas with high "minority" percentages where you find the greatest tension. Instead, people on the net were coming up either with fanciful explanations or were stymied.

DuPidh
25-04-17, 02:34
There are more muslims in the east, specifically the areas around the Mediterranean, the south east alpine region, Alsace and the North east near Belgium. The association is clear, only in the capital region is this association broken between amount of muslims and FN support.

The areas that voted for Macron are the same areas that supported Hollande which makes sense since Macron was formerly a member of the socialiste party.

I would post some images to help you visualize this, but I can never seem to get it to work.

Macron needs to change wife. With the grandma he has on his side will be a but of the jokes. In the age she is now must take a lot of pills, and smell old age unless she has a liter of parfume.

Minty
25-04-17, 03:10
Any ideas about this split? Are there more Muslims in the eastern areas?

http://cdn6.24live.co/images/2017/04/24/1492980256483400.jpg

Macron’s dominance in the Paris region, known as Ile-de-France and home to over 12 million people, means he swept seven of the eight most-populated departments in France. That’s not to say that Le Pen only has rural support. She ultimately won departments that cover half of France’s 10 largest cities: Marseille, Nice, Strasbourg (home of the European Parliament, where she’s been a member since 2004), Montpellier and Lille.

Muslims like to reside in large cities, and they have to be able to survive. Paris is expensive, so the other options are all those listed about who have strong supporters for Le Pen.

Thousands of Iraqi refugees who arrived in Finland in 2015 decided to cancel their asylum applications and to return home voluntarily. Many of the refugees cited family issues and disappointment with life in the frosty Nordic country for the reason they headed home.

By contrast, the Muslims love France, when they come into the country they come in from the East or the South East. The arrival of Muslim immigrants has caused discomfort for the French. The Muslims love the French, but the question is, do the French feel the same way about them?

Promenade
25-04-17, 03:52
That's what I thought based on what I know of Marseilles, Provence etc. You also have to understand how this works in a societal context; it's usually areas with high "minority" percentages where you find the greatest tension. Instead, people on the net were coming up either with fanciful explanations or were stymied.

I saw the demographic breakdown of the election in a news article. I should have saved it, but I remember some of what it said:

"Blue Collar" and "White collar" workers preferred Le Pen, "Professionals" preferred Macron.

The two higher income brackets also preferred Macron while the two lower income brackets voted for Le Pen.

There was a clear age distinction. Older voters avoided voting for FN like the plague, the memory of her father is still enough to dissuade them. I believe Melanchon also led a few categories, with the youngest demographic and the unemployed but I'm not entirely sure.



I think it's clear Macron represents those who are more well off and Le Pen represents those who are dissatisfied with their situation or current trends in France. This might mean more Melenchon voters will vote for Le Pen especially since she has stepped down from her position in the FN. Macron clearly wins Hamon's constituency.

For supporters of Fillon I'm less sure. Among the upper middle class there is now a predisposition for socially "progressive" values and centre right economics. It will really depend on whether economics or social issues matter more to Fillon's supporters since they are more conservative upper class and Fillon was seen as the conservative side of the Republicans. Fillon of course has endorsed Macron, despite his social stances there was no way Fillon wouldn't support the pro EU candidate. Some of Fillons supporters did not take this well, but perhaps they are just a vocal minority.

A third of french voters are still undecided

Minty
25-04-17, 03:58
Well, retirees and high-earners voted overwhelmingly for Macron.

Emmanuel Macron has largely benefited from the vote of people over 65 and retirees as he achieves his best score in this age group. According to the results of the survey, 27% have voted for the candidate of En marche, even though the elderly people still largely voted for François Fillon (41%).

The former Minister of Economy comes second (21%) in the 18-24 years behind Jean-Luc Mélenchon (27%) and on a par with Marine Le Pen. Finally, men are more likely to have voted for Emmanuel Macron (25%) than women (22%).

In the socio-professional categories, the CSP + have largely voted for Macron (32%, especially among executives with 39%) followed by intermediate professions and PSCs. The inactive (including retirees), they are 24% to have voted for Macron.

Unsurprisingly, the highest incomes (more than 3,500 euros monthly) also voted for the former deputy secretary general of the Elysée (36%) far ahead of Fillon (26%). Of the 11 candidates, Macron scored the highest score in this category.

The former business banker also benefited from the vote of the left-wing sympathizers (29%) and especially those of the Socialist Party (48%). These results are far from the votes of Benoît Hamon.

The latter benefited little from the bulletin of the left-wing sympathizers (15%) marking a real break with the previous Socialist presidential candidates. Finally, Macron was able to count on the vote of nearly one out of two voters of François Hollande in 2012 (45%), supporters of the MoDem of Bayrou (64%) and 16% of the voters of Nicolas Sarkozy.

Unlike Emmanuel Macron, Marine Le Pen achieved its worst score among those over 65 (12%). On the other hand, the president of the FN received support from the 25-34 age group (26%) and the 35-49 age group (27%). The youngest (18-24 years) also supported the MEP (21%). On the gender side, perfect equality: 22% of women and 22% of men voted for the candidate of the National Front.

Unlike the candidate of En marche !, Marine Le Pen achieved its best scores in the lower social categories (37% and particularly among workers 45%) followed by intermediate professions (17%) and CSP + (10% ).

ThirdTerm
25-04-17, 04:40
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/541ff5f5e4b02b7c37f31ed6/5429942de4b0455e57050a1b/542994cee4b0455e57053331/1412011408238/chomage-par-departement-Q4-2013-e1402329551370.png?format=750w
A map showing unemployment (chômage) by département for Q4 2013.

The consensus among academics is that there is some correlation between high unemployment and the electoral support for the FN. The persistence of high levels of unemployment is the direct cause of Le Pen's party's rise in deprived areas and FN voters are less likely to have school-leaving certificates, making them more vulnerable to economic downturns.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/541ff5f5e4b02b7c37f31ed6/5429942de4b0455e57050a1b/542994cee4b0455e5705332e/1412011407383/European-Parl-election-2014-FN-vote-e1402316660978.png?format=750w
FN vote percentages in the 2014 European parliament election.


There is also the east-west dichotomy in wealth and the western regions which strongly supported Macron are much wealthier than the eastern regions in terms of GDP. To make matters worse, France is facing its highest rates of poverty since 1997 as unemployment climbs to record levels. This voting block suffered most from the EU's austerity measures and Le Pen is willing to take France out of the EU, which is one of the reasons why she's popular.


https://www.thelocal.fr/userdata/images/1390912518_Poverty.map.France.Nouvel.Obs.jpg
Poverty rates in France

Aaron1981
25-04-17, 05:22
By contrast, the Muslims love France, when they come into the country they come in from the East or the South East. The arrival of Muslim immigrants has caused discomfort for the French. The Muslims love the French, but the question is, do the French feel the same way about them?

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. Maybe you'd like to ask the native French victims of terrorism who have been living in the territory of France for the last 20,000 years. A little hypocritical yourself no? Even you don't consider yourself French, and identify as "Chiwanese" yet you live on their land. Let's see how China or Taiwan would feel if 10,000's of white immigrants moved to your land and refused to assimilate to Chinese customs that had been thousands of years in development.

Minty
25-04-17, 06:48
I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. Maybe you'd like to ask the native French victims of terrorism who have been living in the territory of France for the last 20,000 years. A little hypocritical yourself no? Even you don't consider yourself French, and identify as "Chiwanese" yet you live on their land. Let's see how China or Taiwan would feel if 10,000's of white immigrants moved to your land and refused to assimilate to Chinese customs that had been thousands of years in development.

I totally have no idea what are you talking about? The French in those area voted for Le pen because of many reasons. One of the major reasons they did that is that the Muslims do not integrate in their country. There have been 21 deadly Islamist attacks in France since Charlie Hebdo. Many Muslims enter into France from those regions who voted for Le Pen. I was answering Angela's question.

I live in France because I am married to a Frenchman therefore I am French. I have a French degree and I have a job. And what does that have anything to do with what you’ve just said about hypothetically white people migrate to China or Taiwan and do not integrate? How many white/ Chinese marriages do you expect will happen in a country? What is your point? When did I say that I do not consider myself French, I have a French Flag. Chiwanese is my origins and I considered myself a citizen of the world because I have lived all over the world! I was not born neither in Taiwan or China and had never lived in any of those two countries.

It is clearly written on my profile my ethnic is Chiwanese. Can you read?

I am a hypocrite?! I think you are basing your assumptions on ignorance! You think you understand the French better than me?! I have lived in France for more than 10 years? Have you?

I know plenty native French people, how many native French people do you know? Ask them what? Did I say the things you accused me of saying?

Minty
25-04-17, 07:34
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/541ff5f5e4b02b7c37f31ed6/5429942de4b0455e57050a1b/542994cee4b0455e57053331/1412011408238/chomage-par-departement-Q4-2013-e1402329551370.png?format=750w
A map showing unemployment (chômage) by département for Q4 2013.

The consensus among academics is that there is some correlation between high unemployment and the electoral support for the FN. The persistence of high levels of unemployment is the direct cause of Le Pen's party's rise in deprived areas and FN voters are less likely to have school-leaving certificates, making them more vulnerable to economic downturns.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/541ff5f5e4b02b7c37f31ed6/5429942de4b0455e57050a1b/542994cee4b0455e5705332e/1412011407383/European-Parl-election-2014-FN-vote-e1402316660978.png?format=750w
FN vote percentages in the 2014 European parliament election.


There is also the east-west dichotomy in wealth and the eastern regions which supported Macron are much wealthier than the western regions in terms of GDP. To make matters worse, France is facing its highest rates of poverty since 1997 as unemployment climbs to record levels.

https://www.thelocal.fr/userdata/images/1390912518_Poverty.map.France.Nouvel.Obs.jpg
Poverty rates in France

Oui, Ipsos says that 32% of voters who live in a household with less than 1250 euros of monthly income voted for the National Front, ahead of Jean-Luc Mélenchon (25%). The working class French of 45% opt for Le Pen, ahead of Jean-Luc Mélenchon (21%).

This is contradictory of what Maciamo told us in this thread:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33962-New-map-of-long-term-unemployment-rates-in-and-around-Europe?highlight=unemployment

bicicleur
25-04-17, 08:29
it is the same all over Europe and in the US : the political establishment has lost

in june there are parliamentary elections, which is still in the hands of the political establishment
if Macron doesn't find any support there, he might end in the same situation like Trump in the US

by the way, the result of the elections was as predicted by the polls, no surprise this time
I'm shocked though by the result of number 4, Melenchon, a Trotskist living in utopia who would lead France into bankrupcty in a very short time

Coriolan
25-04-17, 09:29
Any ideas about this split? Are there more Muslims in the eastern areas?

http://cdn6.24live.co/images/2017/04/24/1492980256483400.jpg
This map is a nearly perfect reflection of the departments with a high percentage of Muslims.
http://a407.idata.over-blog.com/600x451/0/56/73/94/unitarisme-5/musulmans_en_france_ifop_2009.JPG

Coriolan
25-04-17, 09:37
By contrast, the Muslims love France, when they come into the country they come in from the East or the South East. The arrival of Muslim immigrants has caused discomfort for the French. The Muslims love the French, but the question is, do the French feel the same way about them?

Muslims may love France but I really don't think they love the French. French lifestyle and culture this the antithesis of how a good Muslim should live. They are sexually liberated, irreligious, drink wine and eat pork sausages. That's why the tensions run so deeply. The hate and intolerance is mutual. The French orange just afraid of Muslim terrorist. They have experienced Muslim youths burning thousands of cars, verbally or physically assaulting them in the street, and threatening to destroy their liberal values by imposing Sharia law in the country. There is no love either way between the two parties.

Le Pen's mistake was to take an anti-EU stance. If she had been more mainstream for the economy, she could have been elected president. What French people want is someone who will improve the economy and get rid of the Muslims. Le Pen is just not credible for the economy. That's her main weakness.

Minty
25-04-17, 11:05
Muslims may love France but I really don't think they love the French. French lifestyle and culture this the antithesis of how a good Muslim should live. They are sexually liberated, irreligious, drink wine and eat pork sausages. That's why the tensions run so deeply. The hate and intolerance is mutual. The French orange just afraid of Muslim terrorist. They have experienced Muslim youths burning thousands of cars, verbally or physically assaulting them in the street, and threatening to destroy their liberal values by imposing Sharia law in the country. There is no love either way between the two parties.

Le Pen's mistake was to take an anti-EU stance. If she had been more mainstream for the economy, she could have been elected president. What French people want is someone who will improve the economy and get rid of the Muslims. Le Pen is just not credible for the economy. That's her main weakness.

I spoke to my husband about the French election. He thinks the Muslims love the French system not the French. The French system is too generous. They all want to come to France and get a piece of that.

Well, I think it is not completely like that.

I know for a fact that there are some Muslims in France and in Belgium; on the surface they are Muslims, and they insist on their religions and their culture while residing in France or Belgium. However behind closed doors they have sex with French or Belgium men. Yet, to get married that would pose a problem with their families so they ended up breaking up. Now, my question is would you have sex with people you don’t like? Especially with women who come from an upbringing of a modest culture.

I also have some half French half Moroccan or Algerian friends. Their parents are no longer together, and they have no religion. They think they are French and they see themselves as French. So in these situations, their parents were together then they broke up. Are you suggesting that these are all white marriages? There are no sentiments all at, they are only doing that for one reason, to access the French system? Nevertheless, the French accept them as French. They say something like no, Arabs are not French but XYZ, his mum is French. He was born here hence he is French.

They also love French fashion and cuisines. French fashion is very sexy. I would not wear those if I were to visit families in Malaysia for example. My parents would complain on my cleavages. Dressing up in low cut dresses is considered as inappropriate behaviour in countries like Malaysia. So, I have to find clothing that hides my figure if I were to visit there.

In Algeria, where my husband went on vacation once, he saw girls in very short dresses, and yet in France they insist of dressing up in a way that nobody can see who they are talking to. That is much more extreme than how I would dress in Malaysia.

I know a Muslim in Malaysia, he is OK to have meals with the Chinese. He drinks beer, as long as you tell him that this is not beer! He eats pork as long as you tell him that these are not pork!

I know another Muslim lady who told me that some Muslims have lived together before they got married.

The Muslims have changed some parts of the French culture to fit their own, instead of eating pork sausages they eat Merguez for example. Muslims eat French cuisines without the pork. They have localised it to fit their own.

Couscous and tarjin are well accepted by the French. So, the French have been influenced by them too.

Personally speaking, I find the Muslims in France are very hypocritical of their own cultures and their identities. I think they love the French and want to become French. However, not all the French like or accept them in return. Their radical Islamic movements and attacks can be seen as their way of fighting back.

So Le Pen becomes the voice of the French who are angry with the Muslims. “If you don’t behave we will elect her and kick all of you out!” The French exclaimed in their recent election. Le Pen wining the first election is a message from the French telling the Muslims how they feel. It had already happened with Grandpa Le Pen back in 2002.

Unfortunately the person in competition with Le Pen this time is from a new party. Unlike Chirac, he does not have enough people in his party. He needs the members in the French government’s approval for his project. If he cannot get that, even if the French people were to vote for him, he would not be able to implement his plan.

Minty
25-04-17, 12:26
FRANCE’S far-right presidential hopeful Marine Le Pen says she is temporarily stepping down as head of her National Front party.

LOL

Macron received the backing of French President Francois Hollande in May’s presidential run-off, citing “the risk for our country’s future” if Marine Le Pen won.

Well, she likes to shock us all doesn't she? She kicked her own father out of his own party and now she resigns...

Wait, I did a search in French, I could not find any news like this today. Could this be fake news?

bicicleur
25-04-17, 13:03
Minty, I love french cuisine, and I love sexy women, whatever language they speak, do I therefore love the french?

The traditional Muslim community does not like the french, and Muslims that integrate with the french people are seen as traitors.

Sometimes they are facing racism and discrimination, but often they are raised with the idea that all frenchmen are racist and that the whole french society is against them. They are told that the french will never accept them and that they should stay in their own community. As a matter of facts they are much more racist then the french themselves - generaly speaking.

Coriolan
25-04-17, 14:12
FRANCE’S far-right presidential hopeful Marine Le Pen says she is temporarily stepping down as head of her National Front party.

LOL

Macron received the backing of French President Francois Hollande in May’s presidential run-off, citing “the risk for our country’s future” if Marine Le Pen won.

Well, she likes to shock us all doesn't she? She kicked her own father out of his own party and now she resigns...

Wait, I did a search in French, I could not find any news like this today. Could this be fake news?
The way it is presented in the news, I forgive you for thinking that Le Pen actually resigned from her party. But that is not what happened. She just resigned as party president, to dedicate herself fully to her role of presidential candidate for France. But she of course still belongs to the Front National Party. Elected French presidents traditionally resign as party leader. That's just a PR stunt to give the impression that she's confident enough that she will win the election. If she loses, she would of course get back control of her own party.

Coriolan
25-04-17, 14:17
I spoke to my husband about the French election. He thinks the Muslims love the French system not the French. The French system is too generous. They all want to come to France and get a piece of that.

I agree with your husband.



I know for a fact that there are some Muslims in France and in Belgium; on the surface they are Muslims, and they insist on their religions and their culture while residing in France or Belgium. However behind closed doors they have sex with French or Belgium men. Yet, to get married that would pose a problem with their families so they ended up breaking up. Now, my question is would you have sex with people you don’t like? Especially with women who come from an upbringing of a modest culture.

I also have some half French half Moroccan or Algerian friends. Their parents are no longer together, and they have no religion. They think they are French and they see themselves as French. So in these situations, their parents were together then they broke up. Are you suggesting that these are all white marriages? There are no sentiments all at, they are only doing that for one reason, to access the French system? Nevertheless, the French accept them as French. They say something like no, Arabs are not French but XYZ, his mum is French. He was born here hence he is French.

They also love French fashion and cuisines. French fashion is very sexy. I would not wear those if I were to visit families in Malaysia for example. My parents would complain on my cleavages. Dressing up in low cut dresses is considered as inappropriate behaviour in countries like Malaysia. So, I have to find clothing that hides my figure if I were to visit there.

In Algeria, where my husband went on vacation once, he saw girls in very short dresses, and yet in France they insist of dressing up in a way that nobody can see who they are talking to. That is much more extreme than how I would dress in Malaysia.

I know a Muslim in Malaysia, he is OK to have meals with the Chinese. He drinks beer, as long as you tell him that this is not beer! He eats pork as long as you tell him that these are not pork!

I know another Muslim lady who told me that some Muslims have lived together before they got married.

There are always exceptions of course. But as you said yourself some of these Muslims are not Muslim anymore and have no religion. French Muslims having sex or marrying non-Muslims is still quite rare and not at all accepted in the Muslim Community.




The Muslims have changed some parts of the French culture to fit their own, instead of eating pork sausages they eat Merguez for example. Muslims eat French cuisines without the pork. They have localised it to fit their own.


Merguez is not French cuisine, it is a Maghrebin import. With the hundreds kinds of pork cured meats in France not just sausages, but ham, salami, saucisson and the like, you cannot fully appreciate French cuisine by cutting out the pork. It's the same for German, Belgian, Austrian, Swiss and North Italian cuisines. Britain and Ireland may be higher on beef, but all these countries have a long tradition of pork products.

Minty
25-04-17, 14:38
Minty, I love french cuisine, and I love sexy women, whatever language they speak, do I therefore love the french?

The traditional Muslim community does not like the french, and Muslims that integrate with the french people are seen as traitors.

Sometimes they are facing racism and discrimination, but often they are raised with the idea that all frenchmen are racist and that the whole french society is against them. They are told that the french will never accept them and that they should stay in their own community. As a matter of facts they are much more racist then the french themselves - generaly speaking.

Is French cuisine the only thing you love about France? If so, no, you don’t. You only love their food! If you love any sexy women no matter what language(s) they speak, that to me, just means you are a straight man.

It is just that the Muslims have their preferences which European countries they want to go. France is one of the most popular one. When people are such a big fan of France, (providing they don’t have any bad intentions) I think they love France. They can’t all have bad intentions!

When I was a student in France, I met a bunch of French guys who were obsessed with Japan. They try to say that Japanese women aren’t the reason of their obsession, but it is. There are other things too, about Japan that they love, their culture and their languages and their foods that attract a lot of westerners.

As a Chiwanese ethnic minority I always felt under the shadow. Many French people and other Europeans have really trouble to make the difference between East Asians and would sometimes say things to hurt your feelings. I dare to say, I suffer a lot when it comes to people’s ignorance.

They would expect any East Asian/white relationships to be the same, but in fact it is not. I would never generalise dating a French man to an English man. I knew the two do not necessarily like each other and definitely are not the same. Any man who finds me attractive and only sees my physical outlook and not the person inside my body are just well….not ok. There have been a lot of those. They forgot there are lots of reasons other than physical attraction would work as a couple. I think they were just trying to score.

Perhaps for some they can date any women they find attractive, but for me aside from that, the man has to be somebody who fits into the life I had work so hard to achieve. Judging from this, you could say that I love France. I made all this effort to integrate into the Francophone societies, for love.

You mentioned about the Arabs who chose to integrate that were seen as traitors. I had been called that too by Chinese men because I am full blooded Han and I married a white man. I only have a small amount of Chinese girlfriends left, plus my family. The rest of my friends are quite diverse and not Chinese.

Now, I also met other Asians who love France. Not a lot, but there were some. Not all of them stay in France because not all of them found a French spouse and not all of them found a job. Perhaps some of them are like what my husband said about the Muslims who are just here to scam the French system, but others I think love France and the French. Unfortunately for them, the French do not feel the same way.

If you like a lot of things about France, their food, language, system, and you chose it above all other choices in the world. My impression is you love the French and France. It is not as if though you can be happy living in France without the French.

Having said that, yes there are those who come to France just for the passport, and those spies being sent here to destroy France. For these reasons, the French do not trust foreigners. It is like what I said in the other thread: : It is easy to understand racism. It is almost tribal. You like to be amongst the people who are like you. When you don’t know them, you are afraid, and that is all a part of ignorance.

Yeah, brainwashing from their own community is another reason why they won't stop attacking westerners everywhere, not just the French. However some western countries have been targeted more often than others.

MarkoZ
25-04-17, 15:50
What French people want is someone who will improve the economy and get rid of the Muslims.

These sound like reasonable demands :redface:

Apparently FN got a mere 4,99% of the Parisian votes. Makes it difficult to believe that there is a correlation between exposure and FN support.

Maleth
25-04-17, 16:14
It is just that the Muslims have their preferences which European countries they want to go. France is one of the most popular one. When people are such a big fan of France, (providing they don’t have any bad intentions) I think they love France. They can’t all have bad intentions!

Francophone Muslims go to France and French speaking countries, Anglophone Muslims go to Britian. They attract people from their ex empires for language reasons as a matter of convenience...and not only Muslim ones.

Angela
25-04-17, 16:22
Are benefits better in France than in the Scandinavian countries or places like Finland?

Part of the dynamic here is that a disproportionate percentage of the migrants are from the poorest and least educated and most religiously conservative members of their own societies.

I would bet that in France as in other countries the liaisons are between Muslim men and native women.

LeBrok
25-04-17, 16:57
I spoke to my husband about the French election. He thinks the Muslims love the French system not the French. The French system is too generous. They all want to come to France and get a piece of that.

Well, I think it is not completely like that.

I know for a fact that there are some Muslims in France and in Belgium; on the surface they are Muslims, and they insist on their religions and their culture while residing in France or Belgium. However behind closed doors they have sex with French or Belgium men. Yet, to get married that would pose a problem with their families so they ended up breaking up. Now, my question is would you have sex with people you don’t like? Especially with women who come from an upbringing of a modest culture.

I also have some half French half Moroccan or Algerian friends. Their parents are no longer together, and they have no religion. They think they are French and they see themselves as French. So in these situations, their parents were together then they broke up. Are you suggesting that these are all white marriages? There are no sentiments all at, they are only doing that for one reason, to access the French system? Nevertheless, the French accept them as French. They say something like no, Arabs are not French but XYZ, his mum is French. He was born here hence he is French.

They also love French fashion and cuisines. French fashion is very sexy. I would not wear those if I were to visit families in Malaysia for example. My parents would complain on my cleavages. Dressing up in low cut dresses is considered as inappropriate behaviour in countries like Malaysia. So, I have to find clothing that hides my figure if I were to visit there.

In Algeria, where my husband went on vacation once, he saw girls in very short dresses, and yet in France they insist of dressing up in a way that nobody can see who they are talking to. That is much more extreme than how I would dress in Malaysia.

I know a Muslim in Malaysia, he is OK to have meals with the Chinese. He drinks beer, as long as you tell him that this is not beer! He eats pork as long as you tell him that these are not pork!

I know another Muslim lady who told me that some Muslims have lived together before they got married.

The Muslims have changed some parts of the French culture to fit their own, instead of eating pork sausages they eat Merguez for example. Muslims eat French cuisines without the pork. They have localised it to fit their own.

Couscous and tarjin are well accepted by the French. So, the French have been influenced by them too.

Personally speaking, I find the Muslims in France are very hypocritical of their own cultures and their identities. I think they love the French and want to become French. However, not all the French like or accept them in return. Their radical Islamic movements and attacks can be seen as their way of fighting back.

So Le Pen becomes the voice of the French who are angry with the Muslims. “If you don’t behave we will elect her and kick all of you out!” The French exclaimed in their recent election. Le Pen wining the first election is a message from the French telling the Muslims how they feel. It had already happened with Grandpa Le Pen back in 2002.

Unfortunately the person in competition with Le Pen this time is from a new party. Unlike Chirac, he does not have enough people in his party. He needs the members in the French government’s approval for his project. If he cannot get that, even if the French people were to vote for him, he would not be able to implement his plan. Good post Minty, and a good example not to put all the Muslims in one bag. There are many secular Muslims, or used to be Muslims, who don't look and behave much different than ordinary French. They came to France or West in general, because they love freedom or they are not religious.
However, in the streets we will mostly see the conservative ones, the religious ones and we immediately think that all of the are the same. This is a psychological trick our brain does on us.
Remember, there are lots of moderate Muslims who like Western values. Let's not put all the Muslims or people from Near East of Africa into one bag.

Maciamo
25-04-17, 18:08
Are benefits better in France than in the Scandinavian countries or places like Finland?


Unemployment benefits are surely the most generous in Belgium and France. Historically there was no limit on how long one could be on the dole. According to an EU Commission report (https://www.google.be/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiYjrqq-b_TAhXJJMAKHZoWD04QFggsMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fec.europa.eu%2Fsocial%2FBlobServl et%3FdocId%3D10852%26langId%3Den&usg=AFQjCNEJVOgQnDkVbqLXsNz3iavQ_jL1tA&sig2=r2fR0kdaraeRhMOiia7hOA), now the limit is 10 years for Belgium, 9 years in France, Spain, Denmark and Finland, 5 years in Sweden, 4 years in Germany, 3 years in Italy and the Netherlands and 2 years in the UK.

The qualifying period for unemployment insurance is the shortest in France (20 weeks). It is one year in most EU countries, including Belgium, Denmark, Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK.

The maximum unemployment benefit is 6900€ per month in France, and the average amount being 1,111€ per month (source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_benefits#France)). Even with no particular qualification or experience, a childless single person can receive 514€ per month, and a couple with two children 1,079€ (source (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/15/which-best-countries-live-unemployed-disabled-benefits)). Those figures are essentially the same for Belgium.

In contrast, in Sweden the maximum one can get is about 1,100€ per month, which is close to the average in France, or the minimum for a couple with two children.

In the UK, the maximum is about 450£, or about 500€ per month, less than half the French average.

In Germany, a childless single person would get 391€ per month, while a couple with two children would get about €850.

In Italy ,an unemployed worker can expect to be paid 75% of their monthly earnings up to a ceiling of 1,180 € per month (over 6 times less than the French maximum).

In Spain, the minimum benefit is 497 € per month and the maximum is 1087,20 € per month for a single person, but it depends on how long they have contributed to the system, while in France and Belgium it doesn't matter how long you contributed.

Additionally in Belgium and France at least, foreigners are eligible for unemployment benefits as long as they are legal residents (worth mentioning; there are limits to the generosity of the providence state).


In other words, an African immigrant who resides legally in France can claim about 1,100€ unemployment benefits for him and his family after being unemployed for only 4 months, and can continue to get this generous package for up to 9 years. Same in Belgium except they wait a bit longer but get one more year on the dole. In other words they get 120,000€/132,000€ free from the government, and they are not even French/Belgian! No wonder these countries are so popular with lazy immigrants. Add to that how easy it has been historically for anybody from a former French colony to get a visa for France (and oddly enough also Belgium) and you have a better picture of what Le Pen supporters are angry about, especially when these immigrants are Muslim and refuse to adapt to European lifestyle or to adopt European values.

Maciamo
25-04-17, 18:43
Good post Minty, and a good example not to put all the Muslims in one bag.

I think it's more important for French people themselves not to assume that all Maghrebis are Muslim. The most prominent and best adapted Maghrebi immigrants to France are Jewish. This includes singers (Patrick Bruel), comedians/actors (Richard Berry, Isabelle Adjani, Alain Chabat, Dany Boon, Gad Elmaleh, Elie Semoun), directors (Claude Lelouch), TV presenters (Arthur) journalists (the very influential Eric Zemmour (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89ric_Zemmour)), business people (Alain Affelou, the CEO of Canal+ and TV5 Serge Adda) and intellectuals (philosophers Jacques Derrida and Bernard-Henri Levy, former president of the Sorbonne University Georges Haddad, writer Jacques Attali). A majority of French people have no idea that many of them are Jewish, except people with clearly Jewish names like Bernard-Henri Levy (but very few could guess his family is from Algeria). Interestingly, almost all the Jewish politicians in France (and there are many) are Ashkenazi, not Sephardi.

bicicleur
25-04-17, 19:00
If Macron gets elected he'll probably have to cut back on the overgenerous French social security system among other impopular measures in order to get the government budget and the economy back on track. I hope he'll have the stomach and enough support from the parliament to do all that.
The political establishment has left an unsustainable mess they don't dare to clean themselves, afraid as they are to lose popularity.
It looks like at least some of the French voters have understood that.

In Belgium the Walloon socialists are no longer in the present government and a few prudent steps have been taken, but not enough as still traditional parties are part of the government. Still more structural measurements are needed.
All in all the Belgian economy is in a better shape then the French, but Belgium has the burden of a higher government debt due to the overgenerous spending in the past.
Countries like The Netherlands and Germany are having budget surplusses lately.

Diomedes
25-04-17, 20:43
Why this behaviour towards her, man? Plus, I think we should not care about who is Macron's wife, as long as she does not affect his job as a president of France.


Macron needs to change wife. With the grandma he has on his side will be a but of the jokes. In the age she is now must take a lot of pills, and smell old age unless she has a liter of parfume.

Diomedes
25-04-17, 20:49
I think Misty provided a very good analysis regarding the outcomes of the French elections. One thing we should take into consideration is the fact that many young people voted for the far right. This tells us one thing, the younger generation suffers economically, and if left without help, and by that I mean mostly jobs and a better standard of living--by the way, it seems that the younger generations in the US and some European countries are doing much worse than their parents--then the extreme parties might have a chance of winning in the future, especially given that older voters will naturally die.

Maciamo
25-04-17, 20:49
If Macron gets elected he'll probably have to cut back on the overgenerous French social security system among other impopular measures in order to get the government budget and the economy back on track. I hope he'll have the stomach and enough support from the parliament to do all that.
The political establishment has left an unsustainable mess they don't dare to clean themselves, afraid as they are to lose popularity.
It looks like at least some of the French voters have understood that.

This election was historical, not just because two non-mainstream candidates made it to the final, but because the Socialist Party has been virtually wiped out (6% of votes), after being one of the two major political forces in French politics for the last 100 years. If French people vote the same way at the parliamentary elections in June, there won't be any major hindrance to reforming the economy and the unemployment benefits. It didn't matter whether Macron or Fillon won, as long as the Socialists were soundly defeated.

LeBrok
26-04-17, 04:46
I think Misty provided a very good analysis regarding the outcomes of the French elections. One thing we should take into consideration is the fact that many young people voted for the far right. This tells us one thing, the younger generation suffers economically, and if left without help, and by that I mean mostly jobs and a better standard of living--by the way, it seems that the younger generations in the US and some European countries are doing much worse than their parents--then the extreme parties might have a chance of winning in the future, especially given that older voters will naturally die.I agree, perhaps the most important thing for peaceful society is good economy.

Yetos
26-04-17, 07:40
Muslims may love France but I really don't think they love the French. French lifestyle and culture this the antithesis of how a good Muslim should live. They are sexually liberated, irreligious, drink wine and eat pork sausages. That's why the tensions run so deeply. The hate and intolerance is mutual. The French orange just afraid of Muslim terrorist. They have experienced Muslim youths burning thousands of cars, verbally or physically assaulting them in the street, and threatening to destroy their liberal values by imposing Sharia law in the country. There is no love either way between the two parties.

Le Pen's mistake was to take an anti-EU stance. If she had been more mainstream for the economy, she could have been elected president. What French people want is someone who will improve the economy and get rid of the Muslims. Le Pen is just not credible for the economy. That's her main weakness.


It is not only Le Pen,
after the Brexit, many peculiar things or ideas took form,

in my country by the time of crisis 'ultra nationalists' take 8%, a % that even they did not expect
and the total nationalists is about 20-23% meaning 12-15% they disagree with ultra-nationalists cause the last ones are American NATO friendly,
and most of Greeks feel indipedent, and anti-American especially after Cyprus case,
so they wait Le-Pen to draw another line, non NAZI, non USA friendly, so to follow her style
in that case they might reach even 36%.
on the other hand, most here vote for reaction and anger a Che-LatinoAmerican left style party and brought it to goverment.
expecting something different by changing,
but even a set referendum result with an odd question did manage to change politicks

that feeling is same to most countries except Germanic and Slavic ones,
they seem to step on more secure ground,
but especially Germanic are panicked by Turks,
results bigger than 65% to YES to Erdogan, means that decades and generations after first, they did not manage to assimilate in their style of life the accepted immingrants

EU is like the 'man on the rope' balancing,
but many believe Le-Pen's dream of a new EU, or of another EU,
the Briezinsky (chess game) plan at Ukraine, set big fire at EU
and the last Balkan situations is like a time clock bomb
soon we will see strange things in Europe
if USA do not change its politics against Russia and Arab spring,
we will see strange things.

Boreas
26-04-17, 11:25
but especially Germanic are panicked by Turks,
results bigger than 65% to YES to Erdogan, means that decades and generations after first, they did not manage to assimilate in their style of life the accepted immingrants


It is not about the nationality.

Were the Turks in UK and USA assimilated?

https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17952880_1437383599707526_2246902592740621064_n.jp g?oh=11e86c9028a6454ed5173325c0bb5634&oe=5977D300

Stop Turkish Assimilation in USA :grin:

Minty
28-04-17, 13:11
I agree with your husband.

Well, what can I say you are both European who speak the same languages. Probably you also have similar cultures. He speaks all of the major languages of Switzerland and four more, even used to live there when he was very young because his parents worked there. People with similar culture often see things the same way.




There are always exceptions of course. But as you said yourself some of these Muslims are not Muslim anymore and have no religion. French Muslims having sex or marrying non-Muslims is still quite rare and not at all accepted in the Muslim Community.

Well, I personally don’t think the French should start telling their immigrants when or in what situations they should have sex. Similarly speaking these Muslims who chose to come to France rather than staying in their Muslims countries should not get upset how open minded European live with regards to their sex life. They need to find a common ground, it is called tolerance!

Yes, this is why my Belgian friend never got married. He had several relationships with Muslim women.



Merguez is not French cuisine, it is a Maghrebin import. With the hundreds kinds of pork cured meats in France not just sausages, but ham, salami, saucisson and the like, you cannot fully appreciate French cuisine by cutting out the pork. It's the same for German, Belgian, Austrian, Swiss and North Italian cuisines. Britain and Ireland may be higher on beef, but all these countries have a long tradition of pork products.

Now, I think you should be more open minded than that. In Malaysia, the Chinese foods we eat are very different than the ones they eat over there in China. For example, we don’t eat dogs . Some of them in selected provinces over there do. There are a lot of local vegetables and spices are eaten by Chinese people in Malaysia, who are not known to the Mainlanders.

Here are some,

86438644864586468647

I don’t think Muslims have to eat Pork to integrate in French societies. I can understand that ban the Burqua issue… that thread is still going…which page are we up to now….lol

I don’t think the French should make Muslims eat pork then labelled them the other for not eating pork. If they don’t want to eat pork they can choose not to. I know plenty of Australians who don’t like pork.

By that logic, with the fact that pork is a very common food in Chinese cuisine; does that mean the French like the Chinese a lot more? Not necessarily, that recent incident with the French police shooting a Chinese man because he had a pair of scissors in his hand making dinner is an example that shows that French do not necessarily like Chinese more than Arabs. There are culture clashes too between the French and the Chinese, eating pork or not! LOL Of course there are a lot of hidden racism you can't see, and don't get to be on TV. The racism against Chinese is more indirect I think.

Minty
28-04-17, 13:44
86438644864586468647



Sorry I don't know why the previous thread won't let me save pictures, so I put them here.

All of the above Chinese foods are not eaten in China. Some of the vegetables or seafoods are not found up there. I think when different cultures met, some food cultures can be transformed.

I think it would be too hard in Scandinavia though. @ Angela, I don't think France or Belgium have better welfare than Scandanavia, I think the muslims cannot see themselves living there with that kind of weather or foods.

My father's friend went to Finland once with his family. Once is enough he said, the people are nice and things but there is nothing to eat. They eat things like bear meat, white eagle meat, reindeer meat, and a lot of smoked fishes especially salmon.

I think there are a lot of other people from various cultures who like French foods, the Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, people from various South American countries etc. I had never heard of any of those who like Finnish foods for example.

Wait, now they are showing up....

Minty
28-04-17, 13:57
The way it is presented in the news, I forgive you for thinking that Le Pen actually resigned from her party. But that is not what happened. She just resigned as party president, to dedicate herself fully to her role of presidential candidate for France. But she of course still belongs to the Front National Party. Elected French presidents traditionally resign as party leader. That's just a PR stunt to give the impression that she's confident enough that she will win the election. If she loses, she would of course get back control of her own party.

I thought when you were running for the President or Prime Minister for an election you need to lead in your party. Apparently you don't. Ma Ying jiu the ex-Taiwan president had already done that. Well, my bad...with all these fake news going on everywhere...I misread the information...

I think it is not a stunt. I think perhaps she wants the French people not to see her representing her father's party but herself because she claims to be different than her father.

86488649

Here are some more Malaysian Chinese foods that are not eaten by Mainlanders. By your logic, our foods are not Chinese!

I think Murguez is greatly accepted by the French into their cuisines. A lot of French eat taboulé, you can find this salad everywhere in the French supermarket. Culture can be changed by contacts. I dated a Moroccan born French guy before I met my husband. He eats a lot of North African foods, for him those are his foods.

Minty
28-04-17, 14:05
Why this behaviour towards her, man? Plus, I think we should not care about who is Macron's wife, as long as she does not affect his job as a president of France.

Yeah, double standards! In some countries men can marry child brides as young as 6 years old, how do you justify that! Macron and his wife do what they want, they are both adults! It is France, the French are very sexual liberal!

Minty
28-04-17, 14:12
Good post Minty, and a good example not to put all the Muslims in one bag. There are many secular Muslims, or used to be Muslims, who don't look and behave much different than ordinary French. They came to France or West in general, because they love freedom or they are not religious.
However, in the streets we will mostly see the conservative ones, the religious ones and we immediately think that all of the are the same. This is a psychological trick our brain does on us.
Remember, there are lots of moderate Muslims who like Western values. Let's not put all the Muslims or people from Near East of Africa into one bag.

Merci beaucoup! I watched a documentary about children with autism in the UAE. It is nice for a change to watch something different about the Muslims. All we see is they are all terrorists and all of them are bad because they are Muslims. I don’t deny there are indeed groups who use women and children to brainwash families to encourage them to become terrorists so that they can be good Muslims. However, not all of them are bad people!

Angela
28-04-17, 14:48
I think it's more important for French people themselves not to assume that all Maghrebis are Muslim. The most prominent and best adapted Maghrebi immigrants to France are Jewish. This includes singers (Patrick Bruel), comedians/actors (Richard Berry, Isabelle Adjani, Alain Chabat, Dany Boon, Gad Elmaleh, Elie Semoun), directors (Claude Lelouch), TV presenters (Arthur) journalists (the very influential Eric Zemmour (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89ric_Zemmour)), business people (Alain Affelou, the CEO of Canal+ and TV5 Serge Adda) and intellectuals (philosophers Jacques Derrida and Bernard-Henri Levy, former president of the Sorbonne University Georges Haddad, writer Jacques Attali). A majority of French people have no idea that many of them are Jewish, except people with clearly Jewish names like Bernard-Henri Levy (but very few could guess his family is from Algeria). Interestingly, almost all the Jewish politicians in France (and there are many) are Ashkenazi, not Sephardi.

It's about education and most importantly, the religion.

bicicleur
28-04-17, 14:59
It is not about the nationality.

Were the Turks in UK and USA assimilated?

https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17952880_1437383599707526_2246902592740621064_n.jp g?oh=11e86c9028a6454ed5173325c0bb5634&oe=5977D300

Stop Turkish Assimilation in USA :grin:

are there large Turkish communities in the USA?
Erdogan campaigns there where the Turkish population is most dense, Germany, Holland, Belgium
he fills them with some kind of fascist pride and tries to export the controversy and divide that is within Turkey to those countries
and so he prevents assimilation, which should be the duty of every one living in a host country (upto a certain level)

bicicleur
28-04-17, 15:06
86438644864586468647



Sorry I don't know why the previous thread won't let me save pictures, so I put them here.

All of the above Chinese foods are not eaten in China. Some of the vegetables or seafoods are not found up there. I think when different cultures met, some food cultures can be transformed.

I think it would be too hard in Scandinavia though. @ Angela, I don't think France or Belgium have better welfare than Scandanavia, I think the muslims cannot see themselves living there with that kind of weather or foods.

My father's friend went to Finland once with his family. Once is enough he said, the people are nice and things but there is nothing to eat. They eat things like bear meat, white eagle meat, reindeer meat, and a lot of smoked fishes especially salmon.

I think there are a lot of other people from various cultures who like French foods, the Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, people from various South American countries etc. I had never heard of any of those who like Finnish foods for example.

Wait, now they are showing up....

nobody in France or in Europe tries to make the Muslims eat porc
most schools now offer alternative porc-free meals
often they even ban porc altogether, much to the discontent of the autochtone Europeans who like porc

Maciamo
28-04-17, 15:36
It's about education and most importantly, the religion.

That was my point. Even coming exactly from the same country, Muslim vs Jewish Maghrebi immigrants have completely opposite successes at integrating French society. The Jews are so well integrated that they thrive at any job and are barely seen as outsiders at all. They have become 100% French. Their Muslim counterparts seem even less integrated now, when some of them are regularly clashing with the police, burning cars and conducting terrorist attacks like never before. Those who fare the best are generally the least religious. I know some Moroccan Muslims who are educated, have good jobs and are well integrated, but they are unfortunately a minority.

Yetos
28-04-17, 15:51
It is not about the nationality.

Were the Turks in UK and USA assimilated?

https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17952880_1437383599707526_2246902592740621064_n.jp g?oh=11e86c9028a6454ed5173325c0bb5634&oe=5977D300

Stop Turkish Assimilation in USA :grin:


Boreas
ok I think you are the only one and you got better what I said,

Minty
28-04-17, 16:12
nobody in France or in Europe tries to make the Muslims eat porc
most schools now offer alternative porc-free meals
often they even ban porc altogether, much to the discontent of the autochtone Europeans who like porc

I was responding to Coriolan's response. His definition of French is some sort of white French people who had never been overseas and do not accept any changes. I am not really saying that French is making Muslims eating pork. What I am telling him is that the definition of French culture can vary from person to person just like the definition of a Chinese culture.

My friend who lives in Lorraine says French do eat cheesecake, but my friend in Cambrai says they do not.


Muslims may love France but I really don't think they love the French. French lifestyle and culture this the antithesis of how a good Muslim should live. They are sexually liberated, irreligious, drink wine and eat pork sausages. That's why the tensions run so deeply. The hate and intolerance is mutual. The French orange just afraid of Muslim terrorist. They have experienced Muslim youths burning thousands of cars, verbally or physically assaulting them in the street, and threatening to destroy their liberal values by imposing Sharia law in the country. There is no love either way between the two parties.

Le Pen's mistake was to take an anti-EU stance. If she had been more mainstream for the economy, she could have been elected president. What French people want is someone who will improve the economy and get rid of the Muslims. Le Pen is just not credible for the economy. That's her main weakness.

Sexually liberated yes, definitely, irreligious yeah, drink wine yeah, eat pork sausages hmmm should better say they eat cheese.

In Alsace there is a dish called choucroute, which is usually eaten with pork. I had eaten a fish version of it in their famous local restaurant.

Minty
28-04-17, 17:14
Francophone Muslims go to France and French speaking countries, Anglophone Muslims go to Britian. They attract people from their ex empires for language reasons as a matter of convenience...and not only Muslim ones.

Yes and no. After the period of colonisation there is a period of decolonisation where their ex colonies went to the countries who colonised them to seek a better life. Colonisation made the countries being colonised often very poor and the countries that colonised them very rich.

Now, I knew a bunch of Koreans and Thais who were obsessed with the French.
Let’s skip the Thais because they are very poor, and people most likely will think white marriages which defeats my point.

South Korea is not very poor, but they suffered from political threats from the North. You could analyse it this way and say that the South Koreans went to overseas to escape their political instabilities.

I knew a South Korean girl. She came to France because she worked with a Thai model that is half French. For her this Thai model was very pretty. She became obsessed with her, and wanted to be like her. I met her while studying in French language school. She told me that the French system was too good and that she wanted to be married to a Frenchman, so that she could enjoy all of France’s beauty.

In fact every time I told people this story, they say that she wants to be me. As I am also East Asian, she thinks we are the same.

Now, as I’ve explained in this forum I am from Australia but born in Malaysia. When I studied French the language pair had always been French/English. However due to my Asian phenotype, while I was at the French language school, the Asians wouldn’t stop following me around. They just refused to understand studying together did not work for us.

I hung around with Americans or other Anglophones as well because I spoke English. Then all these Ukrainians, Koreans, Thais etc would start to complain that we got to speak in French because they didn’t understand. However, they were a bunch of hypocrites; they spoke in their languages we didn’t understand, and we had to accept that?! Yet those loved the idea of hanging around me because they thought it was cool and they got to learn English. They also criticised people making groups speaking English that they could not join and complaint of discrimination.

Later on, the group split because we all went to different universities. That Korean girl failed to get herself a French husband or a job. She repeated her degree twice to prolong her stay in France hoping to get what she wanted but failed again.

South Korea was not a French colony.

Angela
28-04-17, 19:20
are there large Turkish communities in the USA?
Erdogan campaigns there where the Turkish population is most dense, Germany, Holland, Belgium
he fills them with some kind of fascist pride and tries to export the controversy and divide that is within Turkey to those countries
and so he prevents assimilation, which should be the duty of every one living in a host country (upto a certain level) Bicicleur, you have to admit the problem is not just on one side. The U. S. is just more welcoming and tolerant of immigrants, which makes assimilation a more attractive option. Part of that vote is based on bitterness. Who can blame them when they've been attacked and even burned out not long ago.

We have no problems with our Turkish families. The families are involved with the school; no burka or hijab; the girls go on to college etc. The only difference I can see is the insistence that the children date only Turks, but the Greeks and the Jews try that too,with less success.

Maciamo
28-04-17, 19:35
Bicicleur, you have to admit the problem is not just on one side. The U. S. is just more welcoming and tolerant of immigrants, which makes assimilation a more attractive option. Part of that vote is based on bitterness. Who can blame them when they've been attacked and even burned out not long ago. We have no problems with our Turkish families.

Turks are probably the least problematic Muslims in Europe along with Muslim Indians, Malays and Indonesians. I personally know many Turks in Belgium and have friends among them (well, usually Turkish expats rather than economic immigrants). It seems much easier for them to integrate because Turks are generally less religious than North Africans, and their character/lifestyle is often more compatible with that of Europeans. I don't think any of the terrorist attacks (successful or prevented) in Europe over the last 10 years included Turkish extremists. In fact I have heard more often of native West Europeans converting to Islam and joining ISIS in Syria than of any Turkish resident in Europe being linked with ISIS or other terrorist group. There is really no comparison. I am not surprised that there is no problem with Turkish families in the US. Even Arabs in the US are very different from those in Europe. Americans got mostly educated and reasonably wealthy Christian Arabs from the Levant, while Europe got the poorest, least educated, most religious Muslims from the Maghreb. Two worlds apart. It would be like comparing an upper-middle-class White New Yorker with a lower class hillbilly from a trailer park in the Appalachians. Both may be White Americans, but very different kinds of White Americans.

Angela
28-04-17, 20:46
Turks are probably the least problematic Muslims in Europe along with Muslim Indians, Malays and Indonesians. I personally know many Turks in Belgium and have friends among them (well, usually Turkish expats rather than economic immigrants). It seems much easier for them to integrate because Turks are generally less religious than North Africans, and their character/lifestyle is often more compatible with that of Europeans. I don't think any of the terrorist attacks (successful or prevented) in Europe over the last 10 years included Turkish extremists. In fact I have heard more often of native West Europeans converting to Islam and joining ISIS in Syria than of any Turkish resident in Europe being linked with ISIS or other terrorist group. There is really no comparison. I am not surprised that there is no problem with Turkish families in the US. Even Arabs in the US are very different from those in Europe. Americans got mostly educated and reasonably wealthy Christian Arabs from the Levant, while Europe got the poorest, least educated, most religious Muslims from the Maghreb. Two worlds apart. It would be like comparing an upper-middle-class White New Yorker with a lower class hillbilly from a trailer park in the Appalachians. Both may be White Americans, but very different kinds of White Americans.

I agree with all of that, Maciamo, yet the voting profile is still different, and I think part of it is that Turks have never been treated here as they have been in Germany. The immigrant experience is different here, even for Italians. I know because I've lived it. It was very different and far less pleasant for my cousins in Switzerland.

bicicleur
29-04-17, 11:39
Bicicleur, you have to admit the problem is not just on one side. The U. S. is just more welcoming and tolerant of immigrants, which makes assimilation a more attractive option. Part of that vote is based on bitterness. Who can blame them when they've been attacked and even burned out not long ago.

We have no problems with our Turkish families. The families are involved with the school; no burka or hijab; the girls go on to college etc. The only difference I can see is the insistence that the children date only Turks, but the Greeks and the Jews try that too,with less success.

the US is still a young nation with vast territories and resources, founded by people with an open mind
people in the US are open minded and mobile
it is still the land of oportunity for every one

Europe has the burden of a long and complicated history
most people are not mobile and many are jealous of succesful people
I think you will recognise this with some of your relatives in Italy too

immigration policy is completely different
the US choses its immigrants
they must be mulitlingual or English speakers
they must have the proper skills to make it in America
when they come to America they know that they will have to rely on themselves and their own skills
they also know that if they make it, they will be respected

political correctness has manipulated some false feeling of guilt upon the European administrators
they allow immigration for the wrong reasons
they think that everybody is entitled to the same rights and material comfort as the Europeans
they attract the wrong people, often people that even can't make it in their own native country
many of them are illiterate, more of them speak only their native language and are not used to meet strangers

yesterday it was in the news : many (?) Syrians, even some that are granted asylum in Europe go back to Syria
again they have to rely on human trafickers, because Turkey don't allow them to cross Turkey to get back into Syria
they take the plane to Greece and from there they are smuggled into Turkey by human traffickers
these people interviewed realise that because of the language they can't get a job and they find it hard to learn the language of their host country
they are dissapointed because things are not as they were promised by the human trafickers who brought them into Europe and now they are homesick
I ask you, if they are unable to assimilate and if it is safe enough for them to return home, why were some of them granted asylum in the first place?

Maciamo
29-04-17, 12:06
I agree with all of that, Maciamo, yet the voting profile is still different, and I think part of it is that Turks have never been treated here as they have been in Germany. The immigrant experience is different here, even for Italians. I know because I've lived it. It was very different and far less pleasant for my cousins in Switzerland.

Germany and Switzerland aren't France. AFAIK, France is one of the most welcoming countries for foreigners in Europe. There may be tensions with Muslims now, but otherwise a huge proportion of famous French people are of foreign origin. I listed a few here (http://www.eupedia.com/france/famous_immigrant_french_people.shtml). There are especially lots of French people of Italian, Spanish, Polish, Ashkenazi Jewish, and Armenian descent. The French government has passed a series of laws that makes it illegal to make statistics based on ethnicity or religion to prevent discrimination. That is in the spirit of the values of égalité and fraternité of the French Revolution, but also because the French are so ethnically mixed themselves (Gascons, Bretons, Alsatians, Provençals, etc.).

Germany and Japan were two countries that were so preoccupied with racial purity and superiority that it eventually led to WWII. Japan remains to this day a country where it is very difficult to emigrate, especially if one isn't East Asian. Foreigners make up only 1.5% of the Japanese population, and 95% of them are East Asians or 2nd/3rd generation Japanese from South America. Westerners, South Asians, Middle Easterners and Africans only represent 0.1% of the population. Although Japan like to describe itself as a hospitable country for tourists, Westerners who live in Japan are frequently harassed by the police for no reason. I should know, it happened to me. I was asked for my ID card and bicycle registration 4 times in a single month at one point, and I was clearly only targeted because I didn't look East Asian. The police only asked me, the only gaijin around, in the crowded streets of Tokyo.

With that in mind, I don't think even Muslims can complain about their treatment in Germany, a country that was more intolerant of foreigners than Japan until 1945. Germany has made tremendous progress toward integrating foreigners. They even changed the nationality law from jus sanguinis to jus soli, mostly to give the right to second and third generation Turkish immigrants to claim German citizenship. In a culture that has long defined itself by its ancestry, that's quite a big step. In contrast, Japanese people have changed very little in their conception of who should be recognised as Japanese since 1945. Most still consider that Japanese born abroad aren't real Japanese, even if they were born of two Japanese parents and are fluent in Japanese.

As for Switzerland, it has been one of the most secluded countries in European history, one where other countries have traditionally been kept at arm's length and seen with suspicion. Even today a majority of Swiss are wary of entering the European Union, despite being surrounded by it. Swiss nationality laws are some of the strictest in the world. It's not surprising that attitude to outsiders is less relaxed than in the US or France.

Angela
29-04-17, 18:15
the US is still a young nation with vast territories and resources, founded by people with an open mind
people in the US are open minded and mobile
it is still the land of oportunity for every one

Europe has the burden of a long and complicated history
most people are not mobile and many are jealous of succesful people
I think you will recognise this with some of your relatives in Italy too

immigration policy is completely different
the US choses its immigrants
they must be mulitlingual or English speakers
they must have the proper skills to make it in America
when they come to America they know that they will have to rely on themselves and their own skills
they also know that if they make it, they will be respected

political correctness has manipulated some false feeling of guilt upon the European administrators
they allow immigration for the wrong reasons
they think that everybody is entitled to the same rights and material comfort as the Europeans
they attract the wrong people, often people that even can't make it in their own native country
many of them are illiterate, more of them speak only their native language and are not used to meet strangers

yesterday it was in the news : many (?) Syrians, even some that are granted asylum in Europe go back to Syria
again they have to rely on human trafickers, because Turkey don't allow them to cross Turkey to get back into Syria
they take the plane to Greece and from there they are smuggled into Turkey by human traffickers
these people interviewed realise that because of the language they can't get a job and they find it hard to learn the language of their host country
they are dissapointed because things are not as they were promised by the human trafickers who brought them into Europe and now they are homesick
I ask you, if they are unable to assimilate and if it is safe enough for them to return home, why were some of them granted asylum in the first place?

Generally, I agree, Bicicleur. However, we have millions of illegal immigrants who don't speak English, have no skills, and had no health screening or criminal background checks. Some of them are members of criminal gangs before they even arrive here. Yet, half the country won't even agree to turning over convicted felons for deportation. As I explained during the election, mass deportations are out of the question in the U. S. It's not Europe.

Btw, there's no requirement that immigrants speak English. My parents didn't speak a word of it when they arrived. Asylum seekers aren't screened for much of anything.

I'm sorry, but assimilation is a two way street. If you're treated with respect, acceptance, and even friendliness from day one it's much easier to let go of the past.

This is a list of notable Turkish Americans. Now, many of the academics came here for research purposes, but most are just descendants of immigrants. I didn't even know some of them had a Turkish background until I read it here yesterday.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Turkish_Americans

I was particularly surprised by the singers Neil Sedaka and Edie Gorme. I assumed he was Jewish of some sort and she was Italian.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ZJoPYbXUr5I/TP-vhi0enwI/AAAAAAAACYs/4YXRawCO-5E/s1600/109.jpg

I thought her husband and singing partner was Italian. I looked it up and he was Jewish. So I was wrong twice. :)
See, no one cares.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Steve_lawrence_eydie_gorme.JPG

@ Maciamo, France is indeed a completely different case. As for Switzerland, after my experience near Zurich as a teen-ager visiting some cousins I've never been back and I'll never set foot there again. It's the only time in my life I've ever been disrespected because of my ethnicity, and all because I addressed the postmaster in Italian. Stupid me, I thought I was showing respect by using one of the three official languages. From what I've heard Germany is as bad or worse. I'll never go there either, nor do I buy products from either country.

bicicleur
29-04-17, 21:22
As I explained during the election, mass deportations are out of the question in the U. S. It's not Europe.


can you explain the 2nd sentence?

bicicleur
29-04-17, 21:27
It's the only time in my life I've ever been disrespected because of my ethnicity, and all because I addressed the postmaster in Italian. Stupid me, I thought I was showing respect by using one of the three official languages. From what I've heard Germany is as bad or worse. I'll never go there either, nor do I buy products from either country.

Is it the only time?
I guess your relatives in Switzerland also had some bad experiences.
Otherwise I don't get it.

I can tell you I've had the same experience once, and it was in Sienna, Tuscany.
But I don't draw any conclusions from that. Those that disrespected me and my wife were just stupid people.

Angela
29-04-17, 21:57
Is it the only time?
I guess your relatives in Switzerland also had some bad experiences.
Otherwise I don't get it.

I can tell you I've had the same experience once, and it was in Sienna, Tuscany.
But I don't draw any conclusions from that.

Disrespect strictly and only because of my ethnicity? Yes, it was the one and only time in my life. True, I've never been to Germany. Sorry, Bicicleur, but the bad treatment meted out to Italian immigrants in Germany and German speaking Switzerland is a fact.

I'm surprised you were treated badly in Siena strictly because you're Belgian. The only terrible reaction I've ever seen against northern Europeans is when ex- World War II German soldiers brought their families on vacation to the villages where atrocities were committed. I don't know what they expected; it showed a singular lack of sensitivity even if they personally were innocent. Did they think you were German?

A woman I know wanted to live in her father's Ligurian town for a while after she retired. She had to give it up because the old women were just brutal to her German husband. Needless to say, I don't excuse this behavior. As that generation dies it will end.

bicicleur
30-04-17, 01:40
Disrespect strictly and only because of my ethnicity? Yes, it was the one and only time in my life. True, I've never been to Germany. Sorry, Bicicleur, but the bad treatment meted out to Italian immigrants in Germany and German speaking Switzerland is a fact.

I'm surprised you were treated badly in Siena strictly because you're Belgian. The only terrible reaction I've ever seen against northern Europeans is when ex- World War II German soldiers brought their families on vacation to the villages where atrocities were committed. I don't know what they expected; it showed a singular lack of sensitivity even if they personally were innocent. Did they think you were German?

A woman I know wanted to live in her father's Ligurian town for a while after she retired. She had to give it up because the old women were just brutal to her German husband. Needless to say, I don't excuse this behavior. As that generation dies it will end.

There was no reason to asume we were German, and even then it would be no excuse.
We were the only non-Italians in the queue and we look northern European.

Angela
30-04-17, 03:22
There was no reason to asume we were German, and even then it would be no excuse.
We were the only non-Italians in the queue and we look northern European. You're quite right. I apologize for the behavior of my countrymen on that occasion.

Boreas
30-04-17, 07:12
are there large Turkish communities in the USA?

100.000 voter in USA and just 34.000 gave vote

1.490.000 voter in Germany and 600.000 people gave vote.

The main difference is brain migration and worker migration.


Bicicleur, you have to admit the problem is not just on one side. The U. S. is just more welcoming and tolerant of immigrants, which makes assimilation a more attractive option.


Totally agree.

bicicleur
30-04-17, 08:14
You're quite right. I apologize for the behavior of my countrymen on that occasion.

it's ok

as I told you, these were just a few stupid people
it was just a single experience, not representative at all, it didn't happen to me any where else

Boreas
30-04-17, 08:53
https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/a5bjGAo_700b.jpg

Maciamo
30-04-17, 10:07
@ Maciamo, France is indeed a completely different case. As for Switzerland, after my experience near Zurich as a teen-ager visiting some cousins I've never been back and I'll never set foot there again. It's the only time in my life I've ever been disrespected because of my ethnicity, and all because I addressed the postmaster in Italian. Stupid me, I thought I was showing respect by using one of the three official languages. From what I've heard Germany is as bad or worse. I'll never go there either, nor do I buy products from either country.

I don't know what he could have said that was so disrespectful, but it is unfortunately pretty common all over Europe, and indeed all over the Old World (Eurasia and Africa) for people to make fun or disrespect people of other ethnicities or linguistic groups. I have travelled in over 50 countries on all five continents and found this attitude everywhere except oddly in the Americas (but that is also the continent where I spent the least time with Africa). Perhaps that's because in the Americas national identity is not linked to ethnicity, as people are mixed from all over the world.

Even in Belgium it is very common (esp. among the lower class to middle-middle classes) to make fun and make disparaging jokes about people on the other side of the linguistic border. As a child I would hear jokes about Flemish people every week at school, which other kids heard from their parents. That's the kind of jokes that one would expect from early 20th century racist propaganda, comparing them to pigs or stuff like that. Things are tamer nowadays, or maybe it's just because I don't frequent people from lower social levels any more. It happens both ways between linguistic groups, and I wouldn't be surprised if the same was true in Switzerland. I am sure German speakers like to crack silly jokes and throw ethnic slurs about French and Italian speakers, and vice versa. I have always found such jokes petty, narrow-minded and intolerant, but that's unfortunately how a lot of ordinary people are (just look at the share of people who voted for Brexit in the UK because they didn't want Frogs and Krauts in their country anymore, as they would say). Wikipedia has two lists dedicated to ethnic slurs (here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs_by_ethnicity) and here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs)) as if they couldn't fit everything in one page.

All East Asian countries have (mildly) derogatory terms for Westerners/foreigners/outsiders. It is Gaijin in Japan, Laowai/Guizi/Gwei lo/Sai Yan in China, Farang in Thailand, Ang Mo in Singapore, Buleh or Orang Putih in Malaysia and Indonesia...

I have lived four years in Japan and the Japanese use the word gaijin (literally 'outsider') all the time to refer to Westerners. Children in the street point at the foreigners giggling and saying 'Gaijin, gaijin!". When entering a shop even adults would sometimes exclaim 'ah, gaijin da!' ("oh, a foreigner), as if they thought we don't understand them. Often it is pretty innocuous, but not always. There is almost always a feeling of exclusion ("you are different!", "you are not one of us") even when there is no hate or malice behind it. Once a salesman rang at my door in Tokyo and when I opened his face changed, taking a mortified expression and he just said 'ah, shimatta, gaijin da!' ("oh shit, a foreigner!"), once again completely oblivious to the fact that I could understand him, as if there was no way one of those stupid foreigners could understand Japanese.

I have noticed over the years that in every country these terms of exclusions, ethnic slurs and jokes come from a mixed sense of anxiety toward the unknown and a desire to feel superior to the outsiders who "invade" our home country. The nastiness behind the comments depend on the country's culture and the person's social class and character. The Japanese are generally too kind and polite to say anything really shocking besides throwing the word gaijin all the time to make you feel excluded.

Angela
30-04-17, 17:58
This has become a much "bigger" issue than I anticipated, but it was nothing like that. I was 17 years old and walked into the post office to get stamps for my letters. I didn't know if the man spoke English, but I thought it was more likely he spoke Italian since it's one of the official languages there so I spoke to him, politely, in that. He launched into what seemed like a five minute screaming tirade.

I was later told that he was ranting that if I was going to live there I'd better learn to speak German. There was also a general tirade about too many Italian immigrants, and something of a sexual nature about which my relatives refused to be explicit. The worst thing was that not one person spoke up to intervene, not even the women. There are individual crazy people everywhere, but if they didn't agree, why stay silent?

This was apparently not an unusual occurrence, and not the worst of the mistreatment: most people wouldn't rent apartments to them, people would routinely get beaten up, etc. The contrast to my experience in the U. S. couldn't have been more extreme. I understand it's better now, but I'm not the forgive and forget type.

There is "ethnic" humor in the U.S., or at least there used to be; in these days of "safe spaces" and "triggers" it's disappearing. I never liked it; it's just a marginally more acceptable way of insulting people. It's pretty easy to put a stop to it by just turning the tables. People like to dish it out, but they don't like to take it.

American reactions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6x8OgIhprs

Maciamo
30-04-17, 19:12
This has become a much "bigger" issue than I anticipated, but it was nothing like that. I was 17 years old and walked into the post office to get stamps for my letters. I didn't know if the man spoke English, but I thought it was more likely he spoke Italian since it's one of the official languages there so I spoke to him, politely, in that. He launched into what seemed like a five minute screaming tirade.

I was later told that he was ranting that if I was going to live there I'd better learn to speak German. There was also a general tirade about too many Italian immigrants, and something of a sexual nature about which my relatives refused to be explicit. The worst thing was that not one person spoke up to intervene, not even the women. There are individual crazy people everywhere, but if they didn't agree, why stay silent?


Had it happened to me, I would have explained to that idiot that I wasn't an immigrant but a tourist and that there is no reason I should have been able to speak the local German dialect. Did you tell him you were American to see his reaction?

I am not surprised that bystanders didn't react though. It really depends on the culture, but in the more reserved and introverted Germanic cultures people don't usually like to meddle in other people's business. And the Swiss are known to be particularly reserved. Even as I, as a French speaker, wouldn't have said anything as a bystander as I'd think it was none of my business. But if someone had talked like that to me you can be sure that I would have talked back the guy into such a shame that he would have had to hide under his desk.



This was apparently not an unusual occurrence, and not the worst of the mistreatment: most people wouldn't rent apartments to them, people would routinely get beaten up, etc. The contrast to my experience in the U. S. couldn't have been more extreme. I understand it's better now, but I'm not the forgive and forget type.


Italian immigrants getting beaten up in Switzerland? I am very surprised to hear this. On the other hand, it's not that surprising that it's hard to find a place to rent in a country where even multi-millionaire expats (or tax refugees, if you prefer) are not allowed to purchase more than one property in the country, and only if it is their main residence. There is no Western country that is more restrictive than Switzerland about what foreigners can do. But Japan is similar in that respect. Foreigners can buy as many properties as they want, but it's almost impossible to rent a place for a foreigner, no matter how wealthy, if you do not have good recommendations from Japanese citizens as well as a Japanese guarantor to vouch for you. It may actually be easier to just buy a place to avoid all the trouble. For anybody who cannot find a guarantor (not something a Japanese friend or colleague will accept lightly), the Japanese have special "gaijin houses/apartments" that dedicated companies with English-speaking staff rent to foreigners at a highly inflated price. It's a form of organised discrimination at the national scale against foreigners, whatever their origin or social level. There is just no equivalent in the West. Yet, to most Westerners Japanese people appear friendly, polite, respectful, kind and tolerant. The Japanese have a concept called honne vs tatemae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae), which is the dichotomy between one's true feelings (only shared with close family members) and the public façade one adopts in social situations. Foreigners only see the latter. At least German speakers speak their mind and don't hide behind a façade.

bicicleur
30-04-17, 19:13
Generally, I agree, Bicicleur. However, we have millions of illegal immigrants who don't speak English, have no skills, and had no health screening or criminal background checks. Some of them are members of criminal gangs before they even arrive here. Yet, half the country won't even agree to turning over convicted felons for deportation. As I explained during the election, mass deportations are out of the question in the U. S. It's not Europe.

Btw, there's no requirement that immigrants speak English. My parents didn't speak a word of it when they arrived. Asylum seekers aren't screened for much of anything.

I'm sorry, but assimilation is a two way street. If you're treated with respect, acceptance, and even friendliness from day one it's much easier to let go of the past.

This is a list of notable Turkish Americans. Now, many of the academics came here for research purposes, but most are just descendants of immigrants. I didn't even know some of them had a Turkish background until I read it here yesterday.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Turkish_Americans

I was particularly surprised by the singers Neil Sedaka and Edie Gorme. I assumed he was Jewish of some sort and she was Italian.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ZJoPYbXUr5I/TP-vhi0enwI/AAAAAAAACYs/4YXRawCO-5E/s1600/109.jpg

I thought her husband and singing partner was Italian. I looked it up and he was Jewish. So I was wrong twice. :)
See, no one cares.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Steve_lawrence_eydie_gorme.JPG

@ Maciamo, France is indeed a completely different case. As for Switzerland, after my experience near Zurich as a teen-ager visiting some cousins I've never been back and I'll never set foot there again. It's the only time in my life I've ever been disrespected because of my ethnicity, and all because I addressed the postmaster in Italian. Stupid me, I thought I was showing respect by using one of the three official languages. From what I've heard Germany is as bad or worse. I'll never go there either, nor do I buy products from either country.

I've been thinking about this further, and I agree that Americans are more open.
However I still think the main succes to immigration is a proper selection of the immigrants.
The US applied the same criteria for all immigrants, except for the black slaves they imported.
And now, more than 150 years after the abolishment of slavery there still exist black communities who feel discriminated and not part of mainstream American white society.

bicicleur
30-04-17, 19:20
This has become a much "bigger" issue than I anticipated, but it was nothing like that. I was 17 years old and walked into the post office to get stamps for my letters. I didn't know if the man spoke English, but I thought it was more likely he spoke Italian since it's one of the official languages there so I spoke to him, politely, in that. He launched into what seemed like a five minute screaming tirade.

I was later told that he was ranting that if I was going to live there I'd better learn to speak German. There was also a general tirade about too many Italian immigrants, and something of a sexual nature about which my relatives refused to be explicit. The worst thing was that not one person spoke up to intervene, not even the women. There are individual crazy people everywhere, but if they didn't agree, why stay silent?

This was apparently not an unusual occurrence, and not the worst of the mistreatment: most people wouldn't rent apartments to them, people would routinely get beaten up, etc. The contrast to my experience in the U. S. couldn't have been more extreme. I understand it's better now, but I'm not the forgive and forget type.

There is "ethnic" humor in the U.S., or at least there used to be; in these days of "safe spaces" and "triggers" it's disappearing. I never liked it; it's just a marginally more acceptable way of insulting people. It's pretty easy to put a stop to it by just turning the tables. People like to dish it out, but they don't like to take it.

American reactions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6x8OgIhprs

my experience was not exactly the same, but we were in a queue of only Italians, and none of them spoke and they all avoided eye contact with us
and we even didn't intend to settle in Italy, we were just tourists trying to spend our money

IMO opinion what happened is very rare, especialy in a place that receives a lot of tourist visitors, but apearantly it can happen anywhere
these are just stupid people

Angela
30-04-17, 21:17
I'm sorry, but any character trait which prohibits a person from intervening when another person is being verbally abused, and especially a young person, is a character trait which should be overcome. It's a matter of morality and simple human compassion for me; they were in short supply that day. Nor do I think his behavior would have been justified if I had been an immigrant. The video I posted shows, lmo, how people should behave in such circumstances.

As for responding, had I understood German, or thought he spoke anything but German perhaps I would have, but maybe not; I was pretty shy and timid at 16-17. I did ask in English something like what did I do, whereupon his whole demeanor changed. The only reason I know exactly what he said is because the "news" made the rounds pretty quickly and someone came to tell my cousins. There are no secrets in small villages.

Why my relatives stayed all these years is a mystery to me: I used to tell them it must be like having Stockholm Syndrome. They didn't think it was funny. :)

I don't want to give the impression that I think all Swiss people are like this: my cousin's daughter married a Swiss German and he seems like a nice enough person.

As to the treatment of Italian immigrants:
"At first the Swiss government (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_government) encouraged the arrival of guest workers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guest_workers), assigning them different types of work permits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_permit), some forbidding job switching, ranging from the "frontaliere" permit given to Italians living near the Swiss border to the "C" permit granting the same status of a Swiss citizen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_citizen) minus the political rights (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_rights).[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_immigration_to_Switzerland#cite_note-che-4)

"In 1970 there were a million immigrants in Switzerland, 54% of whom were Italians.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_immigration_to_Switzerland#cite_note-che-4) Rising friction with the indigenous majority even led to the creation of an "anti-Italians party" in 1963.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_immigration_to_Switzerland#cite_note-5)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_immigration_to_Switzerland

"Schwarzenbach was a member of the Swiss National Council (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_National_Council) representing the National Action (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Democrats) in the legislature between 1967 and 1971. Schwarzenbach's Republican Movement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Movement_(Switzerland)) originated as a split of National Action in 1971, and it lasted until its dissolution in 1989.Schwarzenbach is chiefly known for his initiative (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initiative) on Überfremdung (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cberfremdung) ("excess of foreigners") that was put to the vote (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_referendums,_1970#June:_Popular_initiative_a gainst_foreign_infiltration) in June of 1970. The referendum had a record turnout (75%), with 45% of the votes supporting Schwarzenbach's proposal. The proposal, if accepted, would have meant that the Swiss government had to limit foreign workers to Switzerland to 10%, which then would mean the deportation of up to 300,000 foreigners over 4 years. Although not enacted, the referendum did cause the number of available work-permits to be lowered.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Schwarzenbach#cite_note-Times-3) Xenophobia in Switzerland at the time was chiefly directed against Italian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italians) migrant workers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrant_worker), whose number had increased from 300,000 to over 1 million during the economic surge after World War II between 1950 and 1970.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Schwarzenbach

Sound familiar? I assure you my relatives were both literate and skilled.

bicicleur
30-04-17, 21:53
no, it doesn't sound familiar to me, except yes, these kind of people do exist
and yes, it makes one wonder why your relatives went and stayed there
I guess there were not to many options at that time
but no, I didn't know about the situation in Switzerland between 1950 and 1970
it makes me think about present legislation for foreign workers in Saudi-Arabia, where I assure you the situation is even far worse today - which is not meant as an excuse
but I can't imagine this kind of legislation ever existed in post-war Germany
of course, Germany was not such an interesting place to live in the first years after war

and yes, I told you my experience was not to be compared with yours, it just demonstrates you can meet this kind of people anywhere
and I admit, in that atmosphere you describe at that time in Switzerland you had a far bigger chance to meet them

PS : I just checked, the Republican Movement never got more than 4.3 % of the vote.
That is very little. But maybe they had a few more sympathisers who still voted for another party.

Angela
30-04-17, 22:21
no, it doesn't sound familiar to me, except yes, these kind of people do exist
and yes, it makes one wonder why your relatives went and stayed there
I guess there were not to many options at that time
but no, I didn't know about the situation in Switzerland between 1950 and 1970
it makes me think about present legislation for foreign workers in Saudi-Arabia, where I assure you the situation is even far worse today - which is not meant as an excuse
but I can't imagine this kind of legislation ever existed in post-war Germany
of course, Germany was not such an interesting place to live in the first years after war

and yes, I told you my experience was not to be compared with yours, it just demonstrates you can meet this kind of people anywhere
and I admit, in that atmosphere you describe at that time in Switzerland you had a far bigger chance to meet them

PS : I just checked, the Republican Movement never got more than 4.3 % of the vote.
That is very little. But maybe they had a few more sympathisers who still voted for another party.

Bicicleur, I'm not quite that old! :) I wasn't there until after 1971, but I guess it was still "in the air". The party wasn't dissolved until 1989, and 45% of Swiss people voted to deport hundreds of thousands of legal, card-carrying immigrants, men, women, and children, and fellow Europeans at that.

I wish the country and its citizens no ill, but there are a lot of other places to spend my money.

Maciamo
30-04-17, 23:07
I don't want to give the impression that I think all Swiss people are like this: my cousin's daughter married a Swiss German and he seems like a nice enough person.

There are good and bad people in every country.



As to the treatment of Italian immigrants:
"At first the Swiss government (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_government) encouraged the arrival of guest workers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guest_workers), assigning them different types of work permits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_permit), some forbidding job switching, ranging from the "frontaliere" permit given to Italians living near the Swiss border to the "C" permit granting the same status of a Swiss citizen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_citizen) minus the political rights (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_rights).[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_immigration_to_Switzerland#cite_note-che-4)

"In 1970 there were a million immigrants in Switzerland, 54% of whom were Italians.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_immigration_to_Switzerland#cite_note-che-4) Rising friction with the indigenous majority even led to the creation of an "anti-Italians party" in 1963.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_immigration_to_Switzerland#cite_note-5)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_immigration_to_Switzerland

"Schwarzenbach was a member of the Swiss National Council (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_National_Council) representing the National Action (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Democrats) in the legislature between 1967 and 1971. Schwarzenbach's Republican Movement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Movement_(Switzerland)) originated as a split of National Action in 1971, and it lasted until its dissolution in 1989.Schwarzenbach is chiefly known for his initiative (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initiative) on Überfremdung (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cberfremdung) ("excess of foreigners") that was put to the vote (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_referendums,_1970#June:_Popular_initiative_a gainst_foreign_infiltration) in June of 1970. The referendum had a record turnout (75%), with 45% of the votes supporting Schwarzenbach's proposal. The proposal, if accepted, would have meant that the Swiss government had to limit foreign workers to Switzerland to 10%, which then would mean the deportation of up to 300,000 foreigners over 4 years. Although not enacted, the referendum did cause the number of available work-permits to be lowered.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Schwarzenbach#cite_note-Times-3) Xenophobia in Switzerland at the time was chiefly directed against Italian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italians) migrant workers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrant_worker), whose number had increased from 300,000 to over 1 million during the economic surge after World War II between 1950 and 1970.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Schwarzenbach

Sound familiar? I assure you my relatives were both literate and skilled.

I admit that I had never heard of this mass Italian migration to Switzerland.

bicicleur
30-04-17, 23:12
Bicicleur, I'm not quite that old! :) I wasn't there until after 1971, but I guess it was still "in the air". The party wasn't dissolved until 1989, and 45% of Swiss people voted to deport hundreds of thousands of legal, card-carrying immigrants, men, women, and children, and fellow Europeans at that.

I wish the country and its citizens no ill, but there are a lot of other places to spend my money.

Sorry, Angela, I didn't do any maths ;-)

bicicleur
30-04-17, 23:18
I admit that I had never heard of this mass Italian migration to Switzerland.

Angela, what kind of job oportunities where there in Switzerland, at the time?

Angela
01-05-17, 00:50
Angela, what kind of job oportunities where there in Switzerland, at the time?

In the beginning, right after the war, when La Spezia and Aulla were still leveled, they did whatever would keep them alive, I think: farm work, construction work, small businesses, hotels and restaurants. By the time I visited my cousin was doing bookkeeping for a small firm. Her half-Swiss son is now an executive at a big Swiss bank, and stationed in Hong Kong. He visits me when he's in New York on business. The world does change for the better sometimes.

Southern Italians had it harder from what I was told. I think my family had a somewhat easier time also because one branch of my mother's family came from the Ticino. They could get different kinds of papers or something.

Anyway, lots of Italians did leave; there's only about 300,000 or so left. This small branch of my mother's family stayed.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/born-in-switzerland--but-still-far-from-citizens/3349834

davef
01-05-17, 05:11
I'm sorry, but any character trait which prohibits a person from intervening when another person is being verbally abused, and especially a young person, is a character trait which should be overcome. It's a matter of morality and simple human compassion for me; they were in short supply that day. Nor do I think his behavior would have been justified if I had been an immigrant. The video I posted shows, lmo, how people should behave in such circumstances.

As for responding, had I understood German, or thought he spoke anything but German perhaps I would have, but maybe not; I was pretty shy and timid at 16-17. I did ask in English something like what did I do, whereupon his whole demeanor changed. The only reason I know exactly what he said is because the "news" made the rounds pretty quickly and someone came to tell my cousins. There are no secrets in small villages.

Why my relatives stayed all these years is a mystery to me: I used to tell them it must be like having Stockholm Syndrome. They didn't think it was funny. :)

I don't want to give the impression that I think all Swiss people are like this: my cousin's daughter married a Swiss German and he seems like a nice enough person.

As to the treatment of Italian immigrants:
"At first the Swiss government (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_government) encouraged the arrival of guest workers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guest_workers), assigning them different types of work permits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_permit), some forbidding job switching, ranging from the "frontaliere" permit given to Italians living near the Swiss border to the "C" permit granting the same status of a Swiss citizen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_citizen) minus the political rights (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_rights).[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_immigration_to_Switzerland#cite_note-che-4)

"In 1970 there were a million immigrants in Switzerland, 54% of whom were Italians.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_immigration_to_Switzerland#cite_note-che-4) Rising friction with the indigenous majority even led to the creation of an "anti-Italians party" in 1963.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_immigration_to_Switzerland#cite_note-5)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_immigration_to_Switzerland

"Schwarzenbach was a member of the Swiss National Council (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_National_Council) representing the National Action (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Democrats) in the legislature between 1967 and 1971. Schwarzenbach's Republican Movement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Movement_(Switzerland)) originated as a split of National Action in 1971, and it lasted until its dissolution in 1989.Schwarzenbach is chiefly known for his initiative (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initiative) on Überfremdung (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cberfremdung) ("excess of foreigners") that was put to the vote (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_referendums,_1970#June:_Popular_initiative_a gainst_foreign_infiltration) in June of 1970. The referendum had a record turnout (75%), with 45% of the votes supporting Schwarzenbach's proposal. The proposal, if accepted, would have meant that the Swiss government had to limit foreign workers to Switzerland to 10%, which then would mean the deportation of up to 300,000 foreigners over 4 years. Although not enacted, the referendum did cause the number of available work-permits to be lowered.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Schwarzenbach#cite_note-Times-3) Xenophobia in Switzerland at the time was chiefly directed against Italian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italians) migrant workers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrant_worker), whose number had increased from 300,000 to over 1 million during the economic surge after World War II between 1950 and 1970.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Schwarzenbach

Sound familiar? I assure you my relatives were both literate and skilled.

If I ever come across a 300lb weight lifter of "NFL material" verbally abusing anyone in particular, I'll just continue on, minding my own, for the sake of my own safety. I'm a nerdy guy who loves to solve puzzles, enjoys mathematics, and I weigh <150lbs (granted, I'm rather strong for my size...). I don't intervene when I witness verbal abuse in general (that is , verbal abuse from anyone including crippled geriatrics) because I don't want to "start". Physical abuse is a different story....but still...if I go toe to toe with someone who's strength is exceptional (and who out benches Hercules), I'll end up dead...and my death will not prevent the assailant from killing his victim.

LABERIA
01-05-17, 06:20
Muslims may love France but I really don't think they love the French. French lifestyle and culture this the antithesis of how a good Muslim should live. They are sexually liberated, irreligious, drink wine and eat pork sausages. That's why the tensions run so deeply. The hate and intolerance is mutual. The French orange just afraid of Muslim terrorist. They have experienced Muslim youths burning thousands of cars, verbally or physically assaulting them in the street, and threatening to destroy their liberal values by imposing Sharia law in the country. There is no love either way between the two parties.

Le Pen's mistake was to take an anti-EU stance. If she had been more mainstream for the economy, she could have been elected president. What French people want is someone who will improve the economy and get rid of the Muslims. Le Pen is just not credible for the economy. That's her main weakness.

I think that the problem with Le Pen is not just her anti-EU stance. The problem is that she and her party are fascists.

bicicleur
01-05-17, 09:24
In the beginning, right after the war, when La Spezia and Aulla were still leveled, they did whatever would keep them alive, I think: farm work, construction work, small businesses, hotels and restaurants. By the time I visited my cousin was doing bookkeeping for a small firm. Her half-Swiss son is now an executive at a big Swiss bank, and stationed in Hong Kong. He visits me when he's in New York on business. The world does change for the better sometimes.

Southern Italians had it harder from what I was told. I think my family had a somewhat easier time also because one branch of my mother's family came from the Ticino. They could get different kinds of papers or something.

Anyway, lots of Italians did leave; there's only about 300,000 or so left. This small branch of my mother's family stayed.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/born-in-switzerland--but-still-far-from-citizens/3349834

So, they went to Switzerland because of proximity and because it was the wealthiest place in post-war Europe.
And you are part of a family that left northern Italy after WW II.
America was the best choice, Angela, no doubt about that.

Minty
01-05-17, 14:13
This has become a much "bigger" issue than I anticipated, but it was nothing like that. I was 17 years old and walked into the post office to get stamps for my letters. I didn't know if the man spoke English, but I thought it was more likely he spoke Italian since it's one of the official languages there so I spoke to him, politely, in that. He launched into what seemed like a five minute screaming tirade.

I was later told that he was ranting that if I was going to live there I'd better learn to speak German. There was also a general tirade about too many Italian immigrants, and something of a sexual nature about which my relatives refused to be explicit. The worst thing was that not one person spoke up to intervene, not even the women. There are individual crazy people everywhere, but if they didn't agree, why stay silent?

This was apparently not an unusual occurrence, and not the worst of the mistreatment: most people wouldn't rent apartments to them, people would routinely get beaten up, etc. The contrast to my experience in the U. S. couldn't have been more extreme. I understand it's better now, but I'm not the forgive and forget type.

There is "ethnic" humor in the U.S., or at least there used to be; in these days of "safe spaces" and "triggers" it's disappearing. I never liked it; it's just a marginally more acceptable way of insulting people. It's pretty easy to put a stop to it by just turning the tables. People like to dish it out, but they don't like to take it.

American reactions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6x8OgIhprs

I think all ethnic minorities have their own fair share of terrible experiences. I was once on a bus, there was an Australian just attacking directly at a group of Chinese students on the bus, his style of racism is like the woman you see below shown in this youtube video. I was sitting on the other side of the bus, I was looking down at my phone at that time because I am always checking for messages on the way back home on the bus. All of a sudden I heard what he was doing, I should have recorded the incident with my i-phone, but I did nothing. I was frozen in some way. The man was very dirty looking. He looked like somebody without a job. When he had enough of it, he sat down. Then he exited on the next stop. When he left, the strap on his bag actually hit my lower leg.

I guess the reason I did not intervene was that I was protecting myself. He is after all a man, and me a tiny woman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf14rpwG9-Y

Minty
01-05-17, 14:54
Germany and Switzerland aren't France. AFAIK, France is one of the most welcoming countries for foreigners in Europe. There may be tensions with Muslims now, but otherwise a huge proportion of famous French people are of foreign origin. I listed a few here (http://www.eupedia.com/france/famous_immigrant_french_people.shtml). There are especially lots of French people of Italian, Spanish, Polish, Ashkenazi Jewish, and Armenian descent. The French government has passed a series of laws that makes it illegal to make statistics based on ethnicity or religion to prevent discrimination. That is in the spirit of the values of égalité and fraternité of the French Revolution, but also because the French are so ethnically mixed themselves (Gascons, Bretons, Alsatians, Provençals, etc.).

Yeah, their slogan, Liberté, égalité, fraternité is the reason why France attracted so many immigrants. For example, Korean I mentioned in my other post. It is because of this reason most of their immigrants are people who have not got enough money to go to The States or Australia to study. If you can get in French university, you need a minimum of B2 Standard, you only pay like 400 euros per year just like local students.

Having said that, it is not true for the Korean I spoke about. This is because she studied in private Universities in Paris. Those were very expensive and the cost of living in Paris was expensive and still is!

In Australia if you are an international student For example, if you are enrolled in a Bachelor of Commerce and taking the equivalent of 48 credit points each year (1 EFTSL) then you will pay $38,500 Aud for the first year (2017), and this fee is likely to increase each year.

For Australians and Kiwis and Australian PR holders tuition fees will be subsidised by the Australian Government. You will pay the remainder – called a 'student contribution amount' and set by the University for your particular study.


Germany and Japan were two countries that were so preoccupied with racial purity and superiority that it eventually led to WWII. Japan remains to this day a country where it is very difficult to emigrate, especially if one isn't East Asian. Foreigners make up only 1.5% of the Japanese population, and 95% of them are East Asians or 2nd/3rd generation Japanese from South America. Westerners, South Asians, Middle Easterners and Africans only represent 0.1% of the population. Although Japan like to describe itself as a hospitable country for tourists, Westerners who live in Japan are frequently harassed by the police for no reason. I should know, it happened to me. I was asked for my ID card and bicycle registration 4 times in a single month at one point, and I was clearly only targeted because I didn't look East Asian. The police only asked me, the only gaijin around, in the crowded streets of Tokyo.

Nobody ever asked to see my ID card, but they were obsessed with my origins. They like to make assumptions based on ignorance, and a lot of generalising.

I would then make fun of them in French. Then they would apologised.


With that in mind, I don't think even Muslims can complain about their treatment in Germany, a country that was more intolerant of foreigners than Japan until 1945. Germany has made tremendous progress toward integrating foreigners. They even changed the nationality law from jus sanguinis to jus soli, mostly to give the right to second and third generation Turkish immigrants to claim German citizenship. In a culture that has long defined itself by its ancestry, that's quite a big step. In contrast, Japanese people have changed very little in their conception of who should be recognised as Japanese since 1945. Most still consider that Japanese born abroad aren't real Japanese, even if they were born of two Japanese parents and are fluent in Japanese.

Chinese do that too.

Now, there is something I notice about the Indians. They love to say something we are ALL Asians. It is like they are trying to say we are the same or something. I personally don’t think Chinese are the same as Indians. They practice child marriages, we don’t. They have caste system, we don’t. They eat with their hands, we eat with our chopsticks, we got slanted eyes, they have round big eyes and the list goes on...

This is especially ridiculous when they are talking to somebody like me who rarely hang around with Asians, with the exception of a few friends and my family. Moreover, the place I work I am the only Asian. I had to fit in, so if they want to talk to me, they don’t need to pull that stunt. I can work with all people Asian or not.:rolleyes2:

I remember my high school Japanese teacher's comment on the Indians, “I went to London once” she said in Japanese, then, she had that look on her face, “a LOT of Indians.” She said in Japanese.

Speaking of Indians, I went to Japan once with my ex- boyfriend (French). He has a problem with the Indians. He thinks they are disgusting. So, every time we saw one, he had to publicly humiliate them. I had to tell him to stop. It was just not what an educated person would do in public. Luckily, nobody understood what he said. I was so embarrassed. The irony of this is that, he actually got a Master 2 degree.

The British colonization on the Indian people must have made them this way. It is like the Filipinos, if you were white you go there, they would think you are Americanos.

Having said that, there were two Indians I met in my bank in Australia that gave me the best impressions. They were well-mannered, neat and tidy.


As for Switzerland, it has been one of the most secluded countries in European history, one where other countries have traditionally been kept at arm's length and seen with suspicion. Even today a majority of Swiss are wary of entering the European Union, despite being surrounded by it. Swiss nationality laws are some of the strictest in the world. It's not surprising that attitude to outsiders is less relaxed than in the US or France.

In France, you need to be married to a French man after 5 years to be eligible to apply for French citizen. You need to pass several French tests. There will be interviews at the prefecture. You need to be involved in the French community, like get a job for example to be considered as you have successfully integrated into the French community.

In Switzerland it is 10 years I think. I am not sure about the tests.

Vallicanus
02-05-17, 15:29
Generally, I agree, Bicicleur. However, we have millions of illegal immigrants who don't speak English, have no skills, and had no health screening or criminal background checks. Some of them are members of criminal gangs before they even arrive here. Yet, half the country won't even agree to turning over convicted felons for deportation. As I explained during the election, mass deportations are out of the question in the U. S. It's not Europe.

Btw, there's no requirement that immigrants speak English. My parents didn't speak a word of it when they arrived. Asylum seekers aren't screened for much of anything.

I'm sorry, but assimilation is a two way street. If you're treated with respect, acceptance, and even friendliness from day one it's much easier to let go of the past.

This is a list of notable Turkish Americans. Now, many of the academics came here for research purposes, but most are just descendants of immigrants. I didn't even know some of them had a Turkish background until I read it here yesterday.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Turkish_Americans

I was particularly surprised by the singers Neil Sedaka and Edie Gorme. I assumed he was Jewish of some sort and she was Italian.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ZJoPYbXUr5I/TP-vhi0enwI/AAAAAAAACYs/4YXRawCO-5E/s1600/109.jpg

I thought her husband and singing partner was Italian. I looked it up and he was Jewish. So I was wrong twice. :)
See, no one cares.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Steve_lawrence_eydie_gorme.JPG

@ Maciamo, France is indeed a completely different case. As for Switzerland, after my experience near Zurich as a teen-ager visiting some cousins I've never been back and I'll never set foot there again. It's the only time in my life I've ever been disrespected because of my ethnicity, and all because I addressed the postmaster in Italian. Stupid me, I thought I was showing respect by using one of the three official languages. From what I've heard Germany is as bad or worse. I'll never go there either, nor do I buy products from either country.


Neil Sedaka is of Jewish origin.

His father was a Sephardi Jew from Turkey while his mother was Ashkenazi Jewish from Poland and Russia.

Somebody mentioned Isabelle Adjani.
She has a Kabyle father and a Bavarian mother.

Minty
02-05-17, 15:44
the US is still a young nation with vast territories and resources, founded by people with an open mind
people in the US are open minded and mobile
it is still the land of oportunity for every one

Europe has the burden of a long and complicated history
most people are not mobile and many are jealous of succesful people
I think you will recognise this with some of your relatives in Italy too

immigration policy is completely different
the US choses its immigrants
they must be mulitlingual or English speakers
they must have the proper skills to make it in America
when they come to America they know that they will have to rely on themselves and their own skills
they also know that if they make it, they will be respected

political correctness has manipulated some false feeling of guilt upon the European administrators
they allow immigration for the wrong reasons
they think that everybody is entitled to the same rights and material comfort as the Europeans
they attract the wrong people, often people that even can't make it in their own native country
many of them are illiterate, more of them speak only their native language and are not used to meet strangers

yesterday it was in the news : many (?) Syrians, even some that are granted asylum in Europe go back to Syria
again they have to rely on human trafickers, because Turkey don't allow them to cross Turkey to get back into Syria
they take the plane to Greece and from there they are smuggled into Turkey by human traffickers
these people interviewed realise that because of the language they can't get a job and they find it hard to learn the language of their host country
they are dissapointed because things are not as they were promised by the human trafickers who brought them into Europe and now they are homesick
I ask you, if they are unable to assimilate and if it is safe enough for them to return home, why were some of them granted asylum in the first place?


Errrr....not quite. My American relatives are from Taiwan. Their English is quite poor. They live in the Taiwanese/Chinese suburbs in CA. The Chinese communities in California are so big, they do not need to speak English at all to survive.

However, unlike the immigration to Europe, you got to have money to migrate to the US. This part is indeed very different.

In the US, they have Taiwanese Town, China Town, Japanese Town, Korean Town, Vietnamese Town and so on. They are segregated in CA. This is very different from Australia, yeah we got China town, but in there you can find Korean supermarkets, Japanese supermarkets etc. We live amongst white people and others, it is not like the US.

My mum does not speak English very well. In New South Wales, there are even jobs where they hire Mandarin/Cantonese speakers to service elderly Chinese people who can't speak English very well.

Northener
09-05-17, 15:00
Bicicleur, I'm not quite that old! :) I wasn't there until after 1971, but I guess it was still "in the air". The party wasn't dissolved until 1989, and 45% of Swiss people voted to deport hundreds of thousands of legal, card-carrying immigrants, men, women, and children, and fellow Europeans at that.

I wish the country and its citizens no ill, but there are a lot of other places to spend my money.

:thinking: Overly ordered Swiss?

Up until know I get in the Mediterranean world mostly a surprised response with my 6 feet 4 and large German head in Greece especially by the older people (mostly only big eyes....).

Just a few weeks ago in a little village in the Maroc Rif mountains I heard every time the surprised whisper (I was with my family, my sons are quite large too) "Alemanni, Alemanni!", probably the local name of all Germans above the Alps. But the people stayed always very friendly and talkative.


And in Rome, at first when I was about the twenty years old, the woman (on their sharp styled vespa's) kind of tempted me with pretty laughs and "ciao bello", "ciao bello", it flattered me but at the same time, as a reserved, shy boy from NW Europe :ashamed2: I wasn't used to that kind of playful behavior, with southern flair :laughing: Must have been funny for them ....:grin: But in the bus to the Vatican a man was very touchy in a sticky way...I must admit that after the surprise my primair reaction was to furiously tell him in my lower german dialect to immediately stop that kind of behavior...(worked well).

But this are are all kind of "droll" experiences nothing compared what you family sadly enough experienced....

last-resort
11-05-17, 17:07
.....
However I still think the main succes to immigration is a proper selection of the immigrants.
The US applied the same criteria for all immigrants, except for the black slaves they imported.
..... The same criteria was NOT applied to US immigrants. Setting aside immigrants before the US was formed, there were very different policies in place at various times in its history. After WW1, there was a severe limitation on southern and eastern European immigrants, for example. Your larger point may be that the US controls its LEGAL immigration. It has not made a serious effort to control its illegal immigration. Too many influential parties benefit from the illegals. A brief story. My last name is unusual and for the uninformed has been confused as being Hispanic (meaning New World Spanish speaker). While in a Middle Atlantic state, I was asked to interview for a position that had a Guatemalan clientele. The issue was a large number of illegal Guatemalans serving as domestic labor for wealthy citizens. The firm wanted a Hispanic to be the face of the firm with these people. A few months later President Clinton had to turn away 2 nominees for the Supreme Court because they had Hispanic illegals working for them. (My lack of Hispanic background was revealed by more senior staff and I did not get the job.)
The shape of immigrants in the US has been affected by the illegals. I have very limited experience with them, but there are large numbers. The US is a 'soupy stew' - soupy meaning inter-marriage, and stew, no inter-marriage - among divergent cultures. Illegals largely want to fit in to the US, as do most legals. Economics is the key.