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mwauthy
18-05-17, 14:13
What is the earliest I1a evidence in Europe? I see that I1 and I1a are used interchangeably but since I1 could be about 27,500 years old and I1a about 4,600 years old I think it's important to differentiate between the two. Also, because I1a accounts for 99% of I1 it can be confusing for people not seeing much of a difference between both terms. The sample found in Hungary from about 5000-7000 years ago, was that I1a or just I1? The sample found in Sweden circa 1400 BCE, was that I1a or just I1?

Apsurdistan
18-05-17, 20:48
Yeah I haven't thought about that much, the difference between I1 and I1a I just always call it I1. It's not known yet how old I1 is and I guess I1a can't be that old. It's the most non-existent hg in ancient samples. I wish they could find more and more ancient and metal age, middle age, any kind of interesting dna samples, not just of I1a but generally.

Promenade
19-05-17, 23:58
I1a is a subclade of I1, there are other subclades of I1 but they are much less common. Both the sample from Sweden and Hungary are listed simply as I1, I think the samples we have from Saxons in England are I1 rather than I1a as well.

There has been very little discussion about I1's origins and I believe it's because most people are still expecting it to pop up somewhere in Mesolithic Scandinavia. Even Maciamo still uses the moniker "The original paternal lineage of nordic Europe" for it's description on eupedia, though the oldest samples from Scandinavia have all been I2 and there are R1b and R1a samples from Scandinavia that predate the oldest sample of I1 there by a thousand years.

The two alternative theories I've seen, both proposed by maciamo, involve I1 entering the area with the funnel beaker culture as agriculturists or mixing with Corded Ware people and then entering. I don't think it's a farfetched idea that I1 massively replaced I2 in this situation since the I2 people would have been a relatively small population of hunter gatherers on the fringes of the inhabitable area of northern europe while the I1 people would have the advantage of farming to sustain a larger population. Also if I1 represented the original Mesolithic population we'd expect modern Scandinavians to derive much more of their ancestry from SHGs.

Apsurdistan
20-05-17, 00:32
I agree the "Original paternal lineage" of nordic Europe sounds like pure guesswork given the available evidence of ancient dna so far including from nordic Europe.

MOESAN
20-05-17, 11:37
we already had some surprises with anDNA: Y-R1b among mesolithic pops of Europe by instance - so we need more anDNA before taking too rigid conclusions - but it's very possible the Y-I1a ancestors were "wintering" in a region South the Baltic for the most, in low numbers, and took strength with late adopted agriculture, maybe in contact with some CWC clans or some Y-R1b-U106 clans of unkown (to me) cultural affiliation?
archeology has more chances to find sepultures of dominant male clans of ruling elites than the ones of spotted low demography hunters-fishers lost somewhere in marshy lands; only bet, no proof to date. Wait and see as always...
some not negligible %'s of Y-I1a are currently found among North Russians (Finnic by origin?) but I don't know the dates of their apparition there, and maybe they came there later (Maciamo has his thoughts about this, I suppose: here the subclades have a great value; SNPs if possible)

mwauthy
21-05-17, 05:30
Interesting! It's a great puzzle that hopefully will be solved one day.

I1a3_Young
22-05-17, 16:31
The article on this site suggests that such a large number of mutations occurred in the I1 line that it appears that the population was bottlenecked for some time. Almost every I1 is I1a, and there is a long mutation list for I1, including but possibly not limited to: L759, CTS10140, CTS10338, CTS11036, CTS11042, CTS11526, CTS11552, CTS11775, CTS11783, CTS11950, CTS1393, CTS2375, CTS2524, CTS2644, CTS2738, CTS3843, CTS4130, CTS4295, CTS5167, CTS5408, CTS5513, CTS565, CTS5705, CTS571, CTS5783, CTS5891, CTS5993, CTS6140, CTS6221, CTS6395, CTS641, CTS6629, CTS7267, CTS7949, CTS8394, CTS8716, CTS9288, F3033, L509, L574, L575, L740, L750, PAGES00123, YSC0000257, YSC0000259, YSC0000264, YSC0000299, YSC0000301, L75, L80, L118, L121/S62, L124/S64, L125/S65, L157R, L187, M253, M307/P203R, P30, M450/S109, L64, L81, L123, L186, L840, P40, S63, S66, S107, S108, S110, S111

Whereas there is only DF29 for I1a, of which it's rare that any I1 is not I1a. If there were not a few people who were not I1a, then it wouldn't be labeled I1a at all and would have been considered another SNP in the I1 mutation list.

That seems to make sense in the timeline of I1a being recent and I1 beginning so long ago.

As for the specificity of ancient samples, I too wish there were more details given. When they say I1* that doesn't give us much of a clue about where in the I1 mutation list that they "branched." Maybe the paid versions of papers would have info such as that.

spruithean
31-07-17, 18:10
I seem to recall the Swedish I1 was most likely "pre-I1" (that was Stora Förvar) as he was positive for some of M253's usual mutations but not M253 itself. Edit: Nordic Bronze Age Angmollan aDNA individual was I1.

As far as I know the Hungarian LBK I1 is simply labeled "I-M253" and the Teesside Anglo-Saxon is I-S107 (same as I-M253).

There is certainly a distinct lack of discussion on I-M253, possibly a combo of the lack of ancient DNA results for the haplogroup and perhaps overshadowing by Haplogroup R1 and his descendants.

I1a3_Young
01-08-17, 03:41
It's a lack of samples and unavailable data from the samples we do have.

I don't think there's a lot of interest in using time/resources to reconstruct a nearly defunct I1 tree. They will focus on the living branches which are overwhelmingly M253>DF29.

NChSh
25-08-17, 18:56
Very interesting topic. My y-DNA is I-M253 (no further mutations).

I1a3_Young
25-08-17, 20:04
Very interesting topic. My y-DNA is I-M253 (no further mutations).
That is interesting. What tests have you had and what downstream SNPs did they cover?

K_Sacana_Blomqvist
04-09-17, 19:17
Very interesting topic. My y-DNA is I-M253 (no further mutations).

what does I-M253 mean? In your ethnic info there are many of them. Does it mean that you know that among your ancestors there are Polish, Hungarians , Lithuanians etc.?

I1a3_Young
04-09-17, 19:53
what does I-M253 mean? In your ethnic info there are many of them. Does it mean that you know that among your ancestors there are Polish, Hungarians , Lithuanians etc.?
M253 is a defining mutation of I1. There are over 300 but that is the common SNP used to describe it.

Check the I1 section of this site for info. YDNA tells the story of only your father line through history. Your other chromosomes define your ethnicity. It is common in Scandinavians and Germans plus wherever they roamed.

mwauthy
04-09-17, 20:01
It's a lack of samples and unavailable data from the samples we do have.

I don't think there's a lot of interest in using time/resources to reconstruct a nearly defunct I1 tree. They will focus on the living branches which are overwhelmingly M253>DF29.

If cremation was a common practice in that part of the world back then it might be a long time before we find any Neolithic samples.