The Y-DNA of the megalithic people

berun

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With the recent papers about BB, Balkans and Portugal, a more clear picture about the people that spread the Megalithic culture in the Late Neolithic / Chalcolithic could be displayed.

Portugal_LN/Chalco
I2a1b x2, G2a2, I2a1a1a1b
SE_Iberia_Chalco
I x2, CF
Central_Iberia_Chalco
I2, I2a2(a) x9, G2a2 (x2), I x2, I2a1a1a
UK_Neo
I2a2(a1) x10, I2a1b(1) x12
France_MLN
I2a1b x2
Remedello
I x3
GACI2a2(a1b) x8, I, I2, BT, CT

The old Anatolian EEF wave linked to G2a seems passed away, and I2a clades take over Western Europe from Portugal or Britanny, delivering a 25% WHG to such pops.

It's quite interesting the possibility to link also GAC (Globular Amphora Culture) with such I2a wave: they were not using so much megaliths but instead pits and cists, but as their territory (RDA, Poland, west Ukraine) coincides greatly with that of the Funnelbeaker culture (TRB), and such culture provided the megalithism in north Europe, it could be though that the GAC pop had it's origin in such culture. By the way the collpase of GAC coincides with the apparition of the CWC and the R1a clades by 2900 BC.
 
With the recent papers about BB, Balkans and Portugal, a more clear picture about the people that spread the Megalithic culture in the Late Neolithic / Chalcolithic could be displayed.

Portugal_LN/ChalcoI2a1b x2, G2a2, I2a1a1a1b
SE_Iberia_ChalcoI x2, CF
Central_Iberia_ChalcoI2, I2a2(a) x9, G2a2 (x2), I x2, I2a1a1a
UK_NeoI2a2(a1) x10, I2a1b(1) x12
France_MLNI2a1b x2
RemedelloI x3
GACI2a2(a1b) x8, I, I2, BT, CT

The old Anatolian EEF wave linked to G2a seems passed away, and I2a clades take over Western Europe from Portugal or Britanny, delivering a 25% WHG to such pops.

It's quite interesting the possibility to link also GAC (Globular Amphora Culture) with such I2a wave: they were not using so much megaliths but instead pits and cists, but as their territory (RDA, Poland, west Ukraine) coincides greatly with that of the Funnelbeaker culture (TRB), and such culture provided the megalithism in north Europe, it could be though that the GAC pop had it's origin in such culture. By the way the collpase of GAC coincides with the apparition of the CWC and the R1a clades by 2900 BC.

Remendello x 3 are all I2a1a1-M26 associated with sardinians and central germans

Remendello is in north Italy , far away from Portugal and Brittany ( france )
 
But close to France and its Chaséen...
 
Also it's quite interesting the case of Ukraine_Neolithic (5500-4800) with R1b linages and I2a2 x3 and I2a2a1b x4, with autosomal highly EHG. Some radical steppist to say something about that?
 
I don't think all of these are Megalithic cultures. Perhaps you meant Western European LN/Chalcolithic in general?
 
the Chaséen in France is not chalcolithic, it has no relation with Remedello
only in Iberia, early chalcolithic seems related with the older megalithic sites
 
View attachment 8710

The late Neolithic / Chalcolithic areas high in I2a come to be similar to those with megalithism. And true, the Chasséen is not Chalcolithic, but I was taking an horizon.

In the map Sardinia appears with megalithism and is also high in I2a.
 
In nord Italia, tale fase coincide con la fase di vita della necropoli di “Remedello di Sotto” (BS); gli uomini della cultura di Remedello (affine a quella emiliana di Spilamberto e a quella di Fontbuisse nel sud della Francia) depongono, nelle tombe individuali, prevalentemente asce e punte di frecce in pietra di tradizione neolitica;

La définition de la culture de Remedello est délicate du fait que les types d'objets présents dans cette culture se retrouvent également dans les cultures contemporaines. C'est notamment le cas des poignards en cuivre de type "Remedello" que l'on retrouve sur toute l'Italie, mais aussi en Suisse et dans le sud de la France

The Po bassin has not natural copper resources. A Remedello "poignard" was found inside a dolmen near Marseilles.
 
Gentlemen, the source of the Remedello ore was probably southern Tuscany, as shown by Otzi's Remedello style ax.

http://www.iceman.it/en/oetzi-treacherous-murder-with-links-to-central-italy/

My comment from a prior thread:

"Now, since Otzi and his ax are dated to 3300 BC, and the axe is Remedello type, the people of Remedello were doing this work before any movement from the steppe. (In fact, Otzi's axe is older than the oldest Remedello axe found.)Again, I think it's Balkan and if the technology was not brought by G2a people, might have been brought by I2a people. After all, Remedello seems to be all I2a, and for hundreds of years.

https://books.google.com/books?id=k...tzi's copper ax-was it Remedello type&f=false
 
It's a fact that there was a Chasséen cultural spread from France to North Italy (Lagozza); moreover after checking that the megalith builders were I2a, the origin of the Remedello people must be more in the west than in the Balkans; the technology is another issue.
 
It's a fact that there was a Chasséen cultural spread from France to North Italy (Lagozza); moreover after checking that the megalith builders were I2a, the origin of the Remedello people must be more in the west than in the Balkans; the technology is another issue.
How can the fact that Remedello carried I2a prove that there was a population migration from the west when I2a was all over the Balkans, the source of the metallurgical knowledge as well.
 
How can the fact that Remedello carried I2a prove that there was a population migration from the west when I2a was all over the Balkans, the source of the metallurgical knowledge as well.

IMO the Balkans seem the most likely origin for Remedello.

Chasséen were trading tools made from rare stones all over France, and later also into southern England.
Many of the rare stones came from the Alps, in between France and Italy, where they may have met Remedello tradesmen.
But they were not trading copper or copper objects. This 'poignard', if it came thorugh Chasséen, it was an exception.

I-M26/L158 has often been put forward as a likely candidate to have spread with megalithic, but I don't see any subclade with the proper TMRCA, which I would expect around 6.5 ka.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L158/

There is the 7.7 ka TMRCA for the Z2049 subclade, which may be the time this I2a HG subclade integrated in the Cardium Ware movement, but at that time, Cardium Ware hadn't reached megalith territory yet.
 
How can the fact that Remedello carried I2a prove that there was a population migration from the west when I2a was all over the Balkans, the source of the metallurgical knowledge as well.

Well, you have a cultural (migration?) influence in N. Italy from the Chaséen, it's provided who the Megalithic builders were mostly I2a, and the Remedello were I2a. You say that metallurgy comes from the Balkans and that there were I2a also, but we know the track of the metallurgy? the Balkan I2a are the same as the Remedello? the Balkan I2a were the majority in a given culture?

@ bicicleur, daggers are also found in the Provençal Fontbouisse Culture, much more primitive than those of Remedello.
 
The flow of metallurgy was east to west as we can see by the dating as well as well as the nature of the technology.
 
Megalithic is a general term for using big stones that falls in different categories. I don't believe they all stem from one group of peoples with a dominant haplogroup. It also seem to be a practice associated with agriculture.
 
Megalithic is a general term for using big stones that falls in different categories. I don't believe they all stem from one group of peoples with a dominant haplogroup. It also seem to be a practice associated with agriculture.

no, megalithism in Europe was initiated by HG, not by the incoming Anatolian farmers, proper dating of the earliest megaliths proves it
probably a few subclades of I2a were involved, but I have no idea which ones
 
no, megalithism in Europe was initiated by HG, not by the incoming Anatolian farmers, proper dating of the earliest megaliths proves it
probably a few subclades of I2a were involved, but I have no idea which ones

Megalithism is a generic word. Europe does not have one type of Megalithic remains. There are stone circles (probably the oldest, who as you say could well be formed by HG) , portal tombs, tombs where the entrance has been eroded with just a tomb in the ground (portal grave), then the more elaborate Megalith constructions such as those in Malta. Göbekli Tepe in Turkey and stone circles in Evora Portugal probably date during the same periods but are very different types of Megalithic structures. In this regard I am presuming that it is highly unlikely that Megalithic even in Europe as a whole can be attributed to one type of Haplogroup. The whole Megalithic subject is still highly debated world wide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalith
 
@Angela, Metallurgy could spread westwards but I have displayed the presence of a Chasséen-like culture in Italy, sharing also the Y-DNA. Can you propose something similar?

@ bicicleur, you might take caution, the stones can't be dated when were erected.
 
@Angela, Metallurgy could spread westwards but I have displayed the presence of a Chasséen-like culture in Italy, sharing also the Y-DNA. Can you propose something similar?

@ bicicleur, you might take caution, the stones can't be dated when were erected.
This is your source?

Did you notice there's not a single citation and they ask for it to be edited? Plus, are they claiming this is the source of Terramare?

"Lagozza [ edit this page |

It is dated to about 3900 to 3400 vC. The name given to the site is the Lagozza lake settlement north of Milan ( Upper Italy ). The Lagozza culture was spread from Languedoc and Provence toSoutheast France, through Liguria to Lombardy and Emilia , with foothills to Pisa and Ripoli, Molfetta and the Bari area. The settlements ( Terramaren ) are also on the shores.
The single-colored ceramic consists mostly of black or occasionally also from red polished fine-grained material without decoration. Occasional embellishments according to Chassey style disappeared soon.
To stone tools there are in addition pointed necked Beilen, sometimes Microliths as trapezes and triangular cross tailor , and rhombic and triangular, stalked partly arrowheads. Bones were made from bones, trailers, and also some harpoons . Weaving weights and spinning whites are made of clay."

According to this source, Lagozza is possibly derived from Chaseen.
https://books.google.com/books?id=X...Q6AEIVDAN#v=onepage&q=Lagozza culture&f=false

I don't know whether Lagozza and/or Remedello carry genetic ancestry from south-eastern France versus the Balkans. Maybe it's both; it's immaterial to me. What I am trying to express is that until we have ancient dna from these cultures, and highly resolved at that, we just won't know.

Sometimes, pots are just pots, not people. Look at Remedello itself; all the indicia of "steppe" culture and not one ounce of steppe blood. (That culture, btw, to address your point, must have come from the east, not France.) If Olalde et al is to be believed, whatever happened in the rest of Europe, perhaps even southern France, there was little if any Iberian influx in terms of people into the Central European area where northern Bell Beaker formed.

All this certainty about cultures from which we either don't have adna or it's not resolved enough is, imo, unwarranted.
 

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