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View Full Version : The Y-DNA of the megalithic people



berun
19-05-17, 21:17
With the recent papers about BB, Balkans and Portugal, a more clear picture about the people that spread the Megalithic culture in the Late Neolithic / Chalcolithic could be displayed.



Portugal_LN/Chalco


I2a1b x2, G2a2, I2a1a1a1b


SE_Iberia_Chalco


I x2, CF


Central_Iberia_Chalco


I2, I2a2(a) x9, G2a2 (x2), I x2, I2a1a1a


UK_Neo


I2a2(a1) x10, I2a1b(1) x12


France_MLN


I2a1b x2


Remedello


I x3


GAC

I2a2(a1b) x8, I, I2, BT, CT




The old Anatolian EEF wave linked to G2a seems passed away, and I2a clades take over Western Europe from Portugal or Britanny, delivering a 25% WHG to such pops.

It's quite interesting the possibility to link also GAC (Globular Amphora Culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globular_Amphora_culture)) with such I2a wave: they were not using so much megaliths but instead pits and cists, but as their territory (RDA, Poland, west Ukraine) coincides greatly with that of the Funnelbeaker (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funnelbeaker_culture) culture (TRB), and such culture provided the megalithism in north Europe, it could be though that the GAC pop had it's origin in such culture. By the way the collpase of GAC coincides with the apparition of the CWC and the R1a clades by 2900 BC.

Sile
19-05-17, 21:35
With the recent papers about BB, Balkans and Portugal, a more clear picture about the people that spread the Megalithic culture in the Late Neolithic / Chalcolithic could be displayed.



Portugal_LN/Chalco

I2a1b x2, G2a2, I2a1a1a1b


SE_Iberia_Chalco

I x2, CF


Central_Iberia_Chalco

I2, I2a2(a) x9, G2a2 (x2), I x2, I2a1a1a


UK_Neo

I2a2(a1) x10, I2a1b(1) x12


France_MLN

I2a1b x2


Remedello

I x3


GAC

I2a2(a1b) x8, I, I2, BT, CT



The old Anatolian EEF wave linked to G2a seems passed away, and I2a clades take over Western Europe from Portugal or Britanny, delivering a 25% WHG to such pops.

It's quite interesting the possibility to link also GAC (Globular Amphora Culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globular_Amphora_culture)) with such I2a wave: they were not using so much megaliths but instead pits and cists, but as their territory (RDA, Poland, west Ukraine) coincides greatly with that of the Funnelbeaker (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funnelbeaker_culture) culture (TRB), and such culture provided the megalithism in north Europe, it could be though that the GAC pop had it's origin in such culture. By the way the collpase of GAC coincides with the apparition of the CWC and the R1a clades by 2900 BC.

Remendello x 3 are all I2a1a1-M26 associated with sardinians and central germans

Remendello is in north Italy , far away from Portugal and Brittany ( france )

berun
19-05-17, 21:53
But close to France and its Chaséen...

berun
19-05-17, 21:58
Also it's quite interesting the case of Ukraine_Neolithic (5500-4800) with R1b linages and I2a2 x3 and I2a2a1b x4, with autosomal highly EHG. Some radical steppist to say something about that?

MarkoZ
19-05-17, 22:08
I don't think all of these are Megalithic cultures. Perhaps you meant Western European LN/Chalcolithic in general?

bicicleur
19-05-17, 23:00
I don't think all of these are Megalithic cultures. Perhaps you meant Western European LN/Chalcolithic in general?

the earliest megalithic in Evora, Portugal was actualy pré-Neolithic 8 ka
Cardium Ware arrived in the area ca 7.4 ka

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almendres_Cromlech

bicicleur
19-05-17, 23:06
the Chaséen in France is not chalcolithic, it has no relation with Remedello
only in Iberia, early chalcolithic seems related with the older megalithic sites

berun
20-05-17, 08:31
8710

The late Neolithic / Chalcolithic areas high in I2a come to be similar to those with megalithism. And true, the Chasséen is not Chalcolithic, but I was taking an horizon.

In the map Sardinia appears with megalithism and is also high in I2a.

berun
20-05-17, 09:01
In nord Italia, tale fase coincide con la fase di vita della necropoli di “Remedello di Sotto” (BS); gli uomini della cultura di Remedello (affine a quella emiliana di Spilamberto e a quella di Fontbuisse nel sud della Francia) depongono, nelle tombe individuali, prevalentemente asce e punte di frecce in pietra di tradizione neolitica;


La définition de la culture de Remedello est délicate du fait que les types d'objets présents dans cette culture se retrouvent également dans les cultures contemporaines. C'est notamment le cas des poignards en cuivre de type "Remedello" que l'on retrouve sur toute l'Italie, mais aussi en Suisse et dans le sud de la France

The Po bassin has not natural copper resources. A Remedello "poignard" was found inside a dolmen near Marseilles.

Angela
20-05-17, 17:46
Gentlemen, the source of the Remedello ore was probably southern Tuscany, as shown by Otzi's Remedello style ax.

http://www.iceman.it/en/oetzi-treacherous-murder-with-links-to-central-italy/

My comment from a prior thread:

"Now, since Otzi and his ax are dated to 3300 BC, and the axe is Remedello type, the people of Remedello were doing this work before any movement from the steppe. (In fact, Otzi's axe is older than the oldest Remedello axe found.)Again, I think it's Balkan and if the technology was not brought by G2a people, might have been brought by I2a people. After all, Remedello seems to be all I2a, and for hundreds of years.

https://books.google.com/books?id=kQKgXoV6XVUC&pg=PA377&lpg=PA377&dq=Otzi%27s+copper+ax-was+it+Remedello+type&source=bl&ots=dBGN7st_TG&sig=jLirGzQ23smOok1NML8q1at3IDI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwip-cmV28PMAhUFcj4KHThnCzIQ6AEIKzAC#v=onepage&q=Otzi's%20copper%20ax-was%20it%20Remedello%20type&f=false

berun
21-05-17, 16:11
It's a fact that there was a Chasséen (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chassey-Lagozza-Cortaillod-Kultur) cultural spread from France to North Italy (Lagozza); moreover after checking that the megalith builders were I2a, the origin of the Remedello people must be more in the west than in the Balkans; the technology is another issue.

Angela
21-05-17, 16:41
It's a fact that there was a Chasséen (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chassey-Lagozza-Cortaillod-Kultur) cultural spread from France to North Italy (Lagozza); moreover after checking that the megalith builders were I2a, the origin of the Remedello people must be more in the west than in the Balkans; the technology is another issue.How can the fact that Remedello carried I2a prove that there was a population migration from the west when I2a was all over the Balkans, the source of the metallurgical knowledge as well.

bicicleur
21-05-17, 17:01
How can the fact that Remedello carried I2a prove that there was a population migration from the west when I2a was all over the Balkans, the source of the metallurgical knowledge as well.

IMO the Balkans seem the most likely origin for Remedello.

Chasséen were trading tools made from rare stones all over France, and later also into southern England.
Many of the rare stones came from the Alps, in between France and Italy, where they may have met Remedello tradesmen.
But they were not trading copper or copper objects. This 'poignard', if it came thorugh Chasséen, it was an exception.

I-M26/L158 has often been put forward as a likely candidate to have spread with megalithic, but I don't see any subclade with the proper TMRCA, which I would expect around 6.5 ka.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L158/

There is the 7.7 ka TMRCA for the Z2049 subclade, which may be the time this I2a HG subclade integrated in the Cardium Ware movement, but at that time, Cardium Ware hadn't reached megalith territory yet.

berun
21-05-17, 19:11
How can the fact that Remedello carried I2a prove that there was a population migration from the west when I2a was all over the Balkans, the source of the metallurgical knowledge as well.

Well, you have a cultural (migration?) influence in N. Italy from the Chaséen, it's provided who the Megalithic builders were mostly I2a, and the Remedello were I2a. You say that metallurgy comes from the Balkans and that there were I2a also, but we know the track of the metallurgy? the Balkan I2a are the same as the Remedello? the Balkan I2a were the majority in a given culture?

@ bicicleur, daggers are also found in the Provençal Fontbouisse Culture, much more primitive than those of Remedello.

Angela
21-05-17, 20:33
The flow of metallurgy was east to west as we can see by the dating as well as well as the nature of the technology.

Maleth
22-05-17, 12:49
Megalithic is a general term for using big stones that falls in different categories. I don't believe they all stem from one group of peoples with a dominant haplogroup. It also seem to be a practice associated with agriculture.

bicicleur
22-05-17, 14:02
Megalithic is a general term for using big stones that falls in different categories. I don't believe they all stem from one group of peoples with a dominant haplogroup. It also seem to be a practice associated with agriculture.

no, megalithism in Europe was initiated by HG, not by the incoming Anatolian farmers, proper dating of the earliest megaliths proves it
probably a few subclades of I2a were involved, but I have no idea which ones

Maleth
22-05-17, 19:45
no, megalithism in Europe was initiated by HG, not by the incoming Anatolian farmers, proper dating of the earliest megaliths proves it
probably a few subclades of I2a were involved, but I have no idea which ones

Megalithism is a generic word. Europe does not have one type of Megalithic remains. There are stone circles (probably the oldest, who as you say could well be formed by HG) , portal tombs, tombs where the entrance has been eroded with just a tomb in the ground (portal grave), then the more elaborate Megalith constructions such as those in Malta. Göbekli Tepe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe) in Turkey and stone circles in Evora Portugal probably date during the same periods but are very different types of Megalithic structures. In this regard I am presuming that it is highly unlikely that Megalithic even in Europe as a whole can be attributed to one type of Haplogroup. The whole Megalithic subject is still highly debated world wide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalith

berun
22-05-17, 21:21
@Angela, Metallurgy could spread westwards but I have displayed the presence of a Chasséen-like culture in Italy, sharing also the Y-DNA. Can you propose something similar?

@ bicicleur, you might take caution, the stones can't be dated when were erected.

Angela
22-05-17, 22:32
@Angela, Metallurgy could spread westwards but I have displayed the presence of a Chasséen-like culture in Italy, sharing also the Y-DNA. Can you propose something similar?

@ bicicleur, you might take caution, the stones can't be dated when were erected.This is your source?

Did you notice there's not a single citation and they ask for it to be edited? Plus, are they claiming this is the source of Terramare?

"Lagozza [ edit this page (https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chassey-Lagozza-Cortaillod-Kultur&veaction=edit&section=2)|

It is dated to about 3900 to 3400 vC. The name given to the site is the Lagozza lake settlement north of Milan (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mailand) ( Upper Italy (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberitalien) ). The Lagozza culture was spread from Languedoc (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languedoc) and Provence to (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provence)Southeast France, through Liguria (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligurien) to Lombardy (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombardei) and Emilia (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emilia) , with foothills to Pisa (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pisa) and Ripoli, Molfetta and the Bari (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bari) area. The settlements ( Terramaren (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terramare-Kultur) ) are also on the shores.
The single-colored ceramic consists mostly of black or occasionally also from red polished fine-grained material without decoration. Occasional embellishments according to Chassey style disappeared soon.
To stone tools there are in addition pointed necked Beilen, sometimes Microliths (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikrolith) as trapezes and triangular cross tailor (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Querschneider) , and rhombic and triangular, stalked partly arrowheads. Bones were made from bones, trailers, and also some harpoons (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpune#Geschichte) . Weaving weights (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webgewicht) and spinning whites (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handspindel) are made of clay."

According to this source, Lagozza is possibly derived from Chaseen.
https://books.google.com/books?id=XneTstDbcC0C&pg=PA295&lpg=PA295&dq=Lagozza+culture&source=bl&ots=nccA261-nQ&sig=hOr8oTCdQQcwAdlQHZyNQmUto4M&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi13P7iooTUAhXL34MKHcf6AasQ6AEIVDAN#v=on epage&q=Lagozza%20culture&f=false

I don't know whether Lagozza and/or Remedello carry genetic ancestry from south-eastern France versus the Balkans. Maybe it's both; it's immaterial to me. What I am trying to express is that until we have ancient dna from these cultures, and highly resolved at that, we just won't know.

Sometimes, pots are just pots, not people. Look at Remedello itself; all the indicia of "steppe" culture and not one ounce of steppe blood. (That culture, btw, to address your point, must have come from the east, not France.) If Olalde et al is to be believed, whatever happened in the rest of Europe, perhaps even southern France, there was little if any Iberian influx in terms of people into the Central European area where northern Bell Beaker formed.

All this certainty about cultures from which we either don't have adna or it's not resolved enough is, imo, unwarranted.

berun
22-05-17, 22:55
I just took the first google ref, if you are more happy with an academic ref: LAGOZZA E CHASSEY - INQUADRAMENTO CRONOLOGICO E CULTURALE DELLE CERAMICHE DELLA LOMBARDIA OCCIDENTALEE DEL SUD-EST DELLA FRANCIA:
Questo contributo essenzialmente è il risultato di una serie di riflessioni relative alle produzioni ceramiche del Neolitico nel Sud della Francia e nell’Italia centro-settentrionale tra 4500 e 3500 a.C. Questo fondamentale periodo del Neolitico in Europa Occidentale è stato identificato nel corso degli ultimi decenni come un orizzonte costituito da tre culture imparentate: Chassey in Francia, Cortaillod in Svizzera, Lagozza in Italia (LAVIOSA ZAMBOTTI 1939-1940, BAILLOUD, MIEGDEBOOFZHEIM 1955, VAQUER 1975, BORRELLO 1977 pubblicato nel 1984); o ancora nella prospettiva di un modello statico : il gruppo culturale Chassey/Cortaillod/ Lagozza(BORRELLO 1980; 2006)

By the way, Genetiker's admixture tables display the three Remedello individuals as 20% WHG + 80% EEF, an usual admixture among Megalithic socities. Ötzi had a 10% and a 85%... but he was G2a.

Angela
22-05-17, 23:08
There is nothing in anything you have posted which proves your point, but you're free to believe whatever you choose.

Apsurdistan
22-05-17, 23:13
How the hell did they build those things? They're freakin heavy and huge! And some have perfect edges and spheres like those stone circles.

Yetos
22-05-17, 23:17
Metallurgy is a generic term for all metalls.

For example we know the gold existed at middle east and there was an amateur metallurgy
BUT we consider Varna and souroundings as first metallurgy of Gold.
And Gold metallurgy moved from WEST TO EAST,
SOMETHING THAT NOBODY EVER NOTICED.

Bronze is found elsewhere probably,
BUT we consider Metallurgy of ARSENIC BRONZE start somewhere at SW Caucasus, Maykob.
and from there spread, so for Europe from EAST TO WEST, (that is the main theory basis for IE theory)
on controversary TIN BRONZE moves from Europe to Asia

Yetos
22-05-17, 23:29
How the hell did they build those things? They're freakin heavy and huge! And some have perfect edges and spheres like those stone circles.

He did, using THE FORCE

https://www.boutique-hantee.fr/2808-home_default/silhouette-star-wars-maitre-yoda-76-cm.jpg


some fun, joke,
human mind, if can noit realise something, creates alliens, daemons, gods, etc

Apsurdistan
22-05-17, 23:54
an oldie but goodie
8713

bicicleur
23-05-17, 07:22
How the hell did they build those things? They're freakin heavy and huge! And some have perfect edges and spheres like those stone circles.

the Barnenez Cairn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnenez and the broken menhir of Locmariaquer (20.6 m tall) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locmariaquer_megaliths were built when farmers were still 200 km away, further inland

interior of a burial chamber in a Cairn :

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Locmariaquer_Table_des_Marchand_%28interieur%29.jp g

they are 2000 years older then the piramids in Egypt

Maleth
23-05-17, 09:52
the Barnenez Cairn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnenez and the broken menhir of Locmariaquer (20.6 m tall) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locmariaquer_megaliths were built when farmers were still 200 km away, further inland

interior of a burial chamber in a Cairn :

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Locmariaquer_Table_des_Marchand_%28interieur%29.jp g

they are 2000 years older then the piramids in Egypt

They say the symbol on this Menhir is a hatchet-plough. Isn't that indicative of an agrarian society?

bicicleur
23-05-17, 15:49
They say the symbol on this Menhir is a hatchet-plough. Isn't that indicative of an agrarian society?

I don't know?
When was the plough invented?
Most think the first farmers in Europe didn't have the plough yet.

I suppose the stone in the pic are hard to date too.
But megalithism would have been in Britanny by 4900 BC, and in Evora, southern Portugal by 6000 BC.
Farming arrived in southern Portugal by cardium ware around 5400 BC.

Some claim oxens were in Britanny when megalthism started, but there is no sign whatsoever of farming there and then.

ΠΑΝΑΞ
23-05-17, 19:07
From my perspective of course indicates an advanced -pastoral also; and agriculture- society.
(for the tool)
The tool looks and is, inteligent as his owner or well represent the absolut authority of "order", "law" or power of the community
This is an advanced item for the commodity, -I suppose and theorize-, it is tool, "symbol" and scepter also, it is not probably an agriculture tool, but inherited more haunting and war features is more profound for me . I will expect not so different shape -for an agro tool- but setted in horizontal posititon related to the axis of handle, also is interesting is the hand grip; at the bottom, which suggest the use of it as a weapon with thrust and chop characteristics.
( the agro tool is usefull to be loose for the hand because you have to repeat your moves/hits countless times, in contrast to battle which is "usefull" not to lose it at first hand, if you are lucky and dont loose both! -Hand and weapon)
Τhe analogy of size of the particles of the item dont indicate -for me- the use it as a plough. To heavy and too thick and to short.


If I dont underestimate something,
Radiocarbon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating) dates indicate that the first phase of the monument was erected between 4850 and 4250 BC, and the second phase between 4450 and 4000 BC.

So, the question rises what animals -which possibly dragged the plough- were domesticated at that region and at what era? -I dont know.




I imagine holding it a person of the absolut authority a magister, a person mediator with the hypernatural forces,
He slaugter and chop the animal with it, he tear up the belly with the back side of the tool.
(the most ineresting -for the religious part of the ceremony-is part of the soft organs which they have to decode the signs fast, and consume it first)


I generally agree with @Maleth at
"that it is highly unlikely that Megalithic even in Europe as a whole can be attributed to one type of Haplogroup. The whole Megalithic subject is still highly debated world wide.

ΠΑΝΑΞ
23-05-17, 20:33
He did, using THE FORCE

https://www.boutique-hantee.fr/2808-home_default/silhouette-star-wars-maitre-yoda-76-cm.jpg


some fun, joke,
human mind, if can noit realise something, creates alliens, daemons, gods, etc

What was the name of that guy who said
"One think i knw that i dont know", but at his last times -on his trial of his life- said about a deamon inside him?


What a coincidence...
I had also a hard 10years... hard trials (I was charged unjust I was in big trouble and trapped ...let me not to expand but accept that for me it was unfair and for my bad luck I had to confront with not one lawyer -up on court- but sometimes with two and the next yaer with couple of others...
One of them (at the begin of my odyssey) stated the same : "-You are a deamon" Sure it was something that he didn;t realise... to be True and not just true-like, that dont change the years after with the others, allthough were prepared.
but
your statement is usefull for me, actually works fine with me because when you deep realise:
the think of the thing you think,
you are ready to name it also.
See the story above. :rolleyes2:

Yetos
23-05-17, 21:36
@ ΠΑΝΑΞ

dedicated to you,
he is not Greek, but his tombstone is written in Greek
but I am certain,
that, when he met Aiakos Minoas Radamanthys,
he was judged,
'ΚΑΤΑ ΤΟΝ ΔΑΙΜΟΝΑ ΕΑΥΤΟΥ'

and their verdict is not mortal.

ΠΑΝΑΞ
23-05-17, 22:35
@Yetos ΟΜΒΡΙΜΟΘΥΜΟΣ

I lie but with no intension, actually was devil his calling...
I like Jim.... as Beam also
Cheers bro, :laughing:


For afterlife I dont give a dime to the ferryman.:cool-v:

MOESAN
25-05-17, 18:45
What was thought in the 75's is that Barnenez contained pottery, arrows spikes and polished stones, and dated from between 5100 and 4400 BC - it could very well be possible this cairn was built after first introgression of farmers into Brittany even if very fresh - I think the megalithism in West developped upon interactions between farmers and local Hg's; the dominating conceptions in megalithism concerning death and ancestors seem inspired more by HG's than by neolithic farmers and it's maybe not an hazard if first megalithism developped in regions where the demic weight of the Farmers was the lightest? Later megalithism was adopted farther and evolved - the seemingly dominant presence of some Y-I2a1 and I2a2 lineages among them in West in not so surprising then - only rough thoughts

berun
31-05-17, 22:56
Cheking the samples of the BB paper they have tested French Neolithic and Chalcolithic samples near Marseilles: La Couronne-Martigues collective tumulus (?) dated to 3500-3100 BC provided mtDNA U3a1, in Clos de Roque 3 pre-Chasséen pits (4700-4500 BC) with a female with mtDNA H3 and two males being I2a1b. The progression of I2a was going on by then...

With that it's very interesting the case of Treilles, with some 20 G2a and 2 I2a found in a collective burial cave (3000-2900 BC) for herders. It seems as if G2a pockets survided amidst I2a populations (Treilles Culture).