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Maciamo
21-05-17, 12:09
I have started making maps of G2a subclades, as they represent quite distinct ancestry. The U1 subclade peaks in the Northwest Caucasus among the Adyghes (40%), Cherkassians and Kabardians. It hasn't been found in Neolithic Europe yet (to my knowledge) and its distribution indicates a possible connection with Maykop and an Indo-European propagation, probably tagging along with the R1b-U152. In Europe the L13 subclade of U1 in dominant and peaks in central Italy and especially in the Latium and northern Campania, which strongly suggests that it was present among ancient Italic tribes, including the Romans, as I have written for several years in the G2a page (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_G2a_Y-DNA.shtml#Indo-European) and the Genetic history of the Italians (http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml).

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-G2a-U1.png

IronSide
21-05-17, 13:02
It also seems to be a major Kartvelian lineage, almost half of the G2 in Georgia.

Also notice the concentration in western Anatolia, what migration gave rise to that I wonder ?? I'm entertaining some interesting thoughts, however if it was them it should have been higher than this, maybe it wasn't the only lineage. It would also depend on which subclade, is it L13 or L1264 ?

bicicleur
21-05-17, 13:28
It also seems to be a major Kartvelian lineage, almost half of the G2 in Georgia.

Also notice the concentration in western Anatolia, what migration gave rise to that I wonder ?? I'm entertaining some interesting thoughts, however if it was them it should have been higher than this, maybe it wasn't the only lineage. It would also depend on which subclade, is it L13 or L1264 ?

Indeed, TMRCA for U1 is 10.7, which is very early neolithic for G2a.
Both subclades, L13 or L1264 may have a very different history, as the map also suggests.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-U1/

Maciamo
21-05-17, 17:46
Indeed, TMRCA for U1 is 10.7, which is very early neolithic for G2a.
Both subclades, L13 or L1264 may have a very different history, as the map also suggests.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-U1/

Yes, but most Europeans outside the Caucasus are L13+, which has a TMRCA of only 5000 years, hence the IE connection.

Fire Haired14
21-05-17, 19:51
Brother clades of U1 have been found in European farmers...

G2a-U1 is G2a2b2a1a1a

G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a1, 3619-2936 calBCE, Trypillia
G2a2b2a1a1b1, 3300-2850 BCE, Hungary Chalcolithic
G2a2b2a1a1c1a, 4725-4605 calBCE, Bulgaria Chalcolithic
G2a2b2a1a1c1a, 3367-3103 calBCE, Hungary Chalcolithic
G2a2b2a1a, 5320-5080 calBCE, Hungary Neolithic

I find it more likely G2a-U1 in Italy derives from Neolithic Italians. The only example of G2a in LNBA Europeans belong to the clade Otzi belonged to. One example of such a G2a was found in Eastern Bell Beaker where lots of R1b-U152>L2 has been found.

We can be confident the G2a-U1 in the Caucasus ultimately derives from EEF-groups because Caucasians are like 40% EEF on average. The Steppe groups who moved into Europe traced their ancestry to Caucasians who lacked EEF or had much less EEF than modern Caucasians. That lowers the chances any G2a-U1 was carried into Europe from the Steppe. I guess it's possible the Steppe ancestors of Italians carried a different kind of Caucasian ancestry but it's more likely their Steppe ancestors were just like Yamnaya.

Regio X
22-05-17, 03:12
@Maciamo
Curiously, over 80% of the Shapsugs in Circassia would be G-L1266, not G-L13. Founder effect, likely. Besides G-U1, also G-M406 was not identified in the Neolithic Europe so far, if I'm not mistaken. But G-M406 would have a much stronger presence in South Italy, while G-U1 would be more common in Central Italy. Possibly G-U1 and G-M406 arrived both in later - and different - waves. As you said, G-L13, the main G-U1 subclade in Europe, has a TMRCA of just 5k ybp. Perhaps part of it came later through Anatolia. G1 is also found in these regions, btw; and Marche, besides G-U1, interestingly seems to present a relevant % of the G-FGC595, found in over 65% of North Ossetians.

Maciamo
22-05-17, 09:44
Brother clades of U1 have been found in European farmers...

G2a-U1 is G2a2b2a1a1a

G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a1, 3619-2936 calBCE, Trypillia
G2a2b2a1a1b1, 3300-2850 BCE, Hungary Chalcolithic
G2a2b2a1a1c1a, 4725-4605 calBCE, Bulgaria Chalcolithic
G2a2b2a1a1c1a, 3367-3103 calBCE, Hungary Chalcolithic
G2a2b2a1a, 5320-5080 calBCE, Hungary Neolithic

I find it more likely G2a-U1 in Italy derives from Neolithic Italians. The only example of G2a in LNBA Europeans belong to the clade Otzi belonged to. One example of such a G2a was found in Eastern Bell Beaker where lots of R1b-U152>L2 has been found.

We can be confident the G2a-U1 in the Caucasus ultimately derives from EEF-groups because Caucasians are like 40% EEF on average. The Steppe groups who moved into Europe traced their ancestry to Caucasians who lacked EEF or had much less EEF than modern Caucasians. That lowers the chances any G2a-U1 was carried into Europe from the Steppe. I guess it's possible the Steppe ancestors of Italians carried a different kind of Caucasian ancestry but it's more likely their Steppe ancestors were just like Yamnaya.

This kind of nomenclature is rather confusing. Please use mutations instead. For example something like that L140>U1>L13.

Anyway, U1 hasn't been found in Neolithic samples yet. It doesn't make sense based on the lack of U1 in Neolithic Europe and its peak in the North Caucasus to think it got to Italy in the Neolithic.

On the other hand it has been confirmed through autosomal DNA and mtDNA (hg H2a1 I, R1, W) that PIE possessed also Caucasian DNA. Mt-haplogroups I1, I2, I3, I4, I5 and W6 are all found in the North Caucasus. Considering that hg I descends from N1a1b and W from N2, two basal Eurasian lineages from the Early Neolithic Fertile Crescent, it is very likely that G2a-U1 is the paternal equivalent of these maternal lineages and that both entered the Indo-European gene pool through the Maykop culture. The same applies to H2a1 as H2a was found in Kumtepe in Early Neolithic Turkey. That would explain why Caucasian admixture was absent from Neolithic Ukraine (in the Steppe), as there was no Y-DNA G2a and no H2a1, I or W yet. Yamna had both I and W, as well as H2b (so far no H2a1 but I am very confident it will be found).

Maciamo
22-05-17, 09:53
@Maciamo
Curiously, over 80% of the Shapsugs in Circassia would be G-L1266, not G-L13. Founder effect, likely. Besides G-U1, also G-M406 was not identified in the Neolithic Europe so far, if I'm not mistaken. But G-M406 would have a much stronger presence in South Italy, while G-U1 would be more common in Central Italy. Possibly G-U1 and G-M406 arrived both in later - and different - waves. As you said, G-L13, the main G-U1 subclade in Europe, has a TMRCA of just 5k ybp. Perhaps part of it came later through Anatolia. G1 is also found in these regions, btw; and Marche, besides G-U1, interestingly seems to present a relevant % of the G-FGC595, found in over 65% of North Ossetians.

G-M406 is particularly strong in Turkey, Greece, Italy and among Sephardi Jews. It correlates better with the Kura-Araxes expansion that also brought Y-haplogroups J1, J2a1 and T1a-P77 to Southeast Europe.

Atlantische
22-05-17, 12:36
Great job! Waiting for L497/Z1816 map. :)
Few weeks ago I created an map for 3 most common G2a branches in Europe and neighborhood countries.
http://i.imgur.com/2mPhIAX.jpg

Maciamo
22-05-17, 19:00
I have already updated the U1 map based on new data.

Cip
14-06-17, 23:26
I found this interesting map online:

http://www.marres.nl/afb/G2a2_migrations.jpg

http://www.marres.nl/afb/G2a2_migrations.jpg



According to these maps L13 entered Europe with neolithic farmers.
I want to ask: the G2a -U1 - L13 entered from Anatolia to Europe, then from Europe to Caucasus? Or from Anatolia to North Caucasus (Maycop) and then with IE to Europe?
I do not understand...

Regio X
19-09-19, 21:59
Well, no G-U1 was found in Neolithic Europe so far, neither G-M406. Let's see if some sample shows up in the near future. Anyway, the "Caucasian" branch of G-U1 seems to be G-L1266. The TMRCA (Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor) of G-L13, which is spread in Europe and Middle East, is 5000 ybp according to YFull*, so after the beginning of the Bronze Age in (SE) Europe. Its arrival looks to me to have happened in the Bronze Age then. Unless you think the G-L13 MRCA lived somewhere in Eastern Europe and spread to Middle East, in the fashion of clades as R-Z2103?
*Older clades' have higher accuracy due to the higher number of samples used for age calculation.

I()
28-09-19, 22:58
Well, no G-U1 was found in Neolithic Europe so far, neither G-M406 (...) Its arrival looks to me to have happened in the Bronze Age then. Unless you think the G-L13 MRCA lived somewhere in Eastern Europe and spread to Middle East (...)
Who know? I think it is is posible.

Regio X
28-09-19, 23:03
Well, no G-U1 was found in Neolithic Europe so far, neither G-M406. Let's see if some sample shows up in the near future. Anyway, the "Caucasian" branch of G-U1 seems to be G-L1266. The TMRCA (Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor) of G-L13, which is spread in Europe and Middle East, is 5000 ybp according to YFull*, so after the beginning of the Bronze Age in (SE) Europe. Its arrival looks to me to have happened in the Bronze Age then. Unless you think the G-L13 MRCA lived somewhere in Eastern Europe and spread to Middle East, in the fashion of clades as R-Z2103?
*Older clades' have higher accuracy due to the higher number of samples used for age calculation.Side note: this was an answer to a post which apparently was deleted. Here is the importance of quoting. :)

I()
28-09-19, 23:26
Side note: this was an answer to a post which apparently was deleted. Here is the importance of quoting. :)

There is a dubious, provocative character who threatens and insults members, deletes their posts inventing delusional accusations, insults different ethnic groups, insult and excludes members of the forum if they are of a different opinion than her; all at her own discretion! What is Herr name ?! :innocent::heart::drunk:

Regio X
29-09-19, 00:07
There is a dubious, provocative character who threatens and insults members, deletes their posts inventing delusional accusations, insults different ethnic groups, insult and excludes members of the forum if they are of a different opinion than her; all at her own discretion! What is Herr name ?! :innocent::heart::drunk:In fact, the content was deleted before (in edition), by the poster himself.

I()
29-09-19, 00:12
In fact, the content was deleted before (in edition), by the poster himself.There is a dubious, provocative character who threatens and insults members, deletes their posts inventing delusional accusations, insults different ethnic groups, insult and excludes members of the forum if they are of a different opinion than her; all at her own discretion! What is Herr name ?! :innocent::heart: THANKS!

I()
29-09-19, 00:15
Good night.:useless:

I()
29-09-19, 00:29
Anyway, herrr... she delette thoundands posts, hundread of mine. Crazy wooooooman or what?:innocent:

I()
29-09-19, 00:33
lol... I began to delete... or what it is says?:bored:

I()
29-09-19, 00:34
Gooooood night again to fiecare dintre voi!:petrified:

29-09-19, 19:39
Gooooood night again to fiecare dintre voi!:petrified:

This destructive behavior is unhelpful and needs to be stopped.

I()
29-09-19, 21:03
I think, U1 and L13 may have existed in Europe since Neolithic times. There are several ancient G2a up to G2a2b2a1a found but the quality of the samples probably did not allow a deeper analysis. There are subclades of L13 that are mainly distributed in Europe, and scarcely in Anatolia and the Middle East. I think this may indicate that its formed from L13 in Europe, starting 5000 years or more ago. Maybe even in the north-east of Romania and the west of Ukraine, possible in the Cucuteni population, which seems to be predominantly of haplogroup G2a2b2a...

I()
30-09-19, 15:22
Well, no G-U1 was found in Neolithic Europe so far, neither G-M406. Let's see if some sample shows up in the near future. Anyway, the "Caucasian" branch of G-U1 seems to be G-L1266. The TMRCA (Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor) of G-L13, which is spread in Europe and Middle East, is 5000 ybp according to YFull*, so after the beginning of the Bronze Age in (SE) Europe. Its arrival looks to me to have happened in the Bronze Age then. Unless you think the G-L13 MRCA lived somewhere in Eastern Europe and spread to Middle East, in the fashion of clades as R-Z2103?
*Older clades' have higher accuracy due to the higher number of samples used for age calculation.From the map here https://www.familytreedna.com/public/G-U1/default.aspx?section=ymap
it turns out that L13 along with all the newer subgroups starting with Z2022 are found in Europe in an overwhelming proportion of ~95%. So L13 with its subgroups can be European brands! Why not?