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Wanderer
25-05-19, 10:39
Nope, the ones above are J-YP157 and J-YP29. Both of them are found mostly/only in Sardinia.Yea thats the point. Those are negative z585...
They dont have z585 like 99.999999999 percent of the J-L283 that have z585 all over europe. The ancient samples are in georgia . Like rise408 for example

Ernekar
25-05-19, 10:52
Yea thats the point. Those are negative z585...
They dont have z585 like 99.999999999 percent of the J-L283 that have z585 all over europe. The ancient samples are in georgia . Like rise408 for example
Nope again, ancient sample rise408 branched off from the Balkans branch. Just like armenian supposedly came from the balkans.

Wanderer
25-05-19, 10:56
Nope again, ancient sample rise408 branched off from the Balkans branch. Just like armenian supposedly came from the balkans.Nope, if they did they would be -z585 Jz600 in the balkans. There is no Jz600 with -z585 there. Rise408 was extracted in georgia.

There is only supposebly one french and belgium guy. But its literally one one person (doesn't have geneology) and is not related to me neither in y matching. While I have another match, my exact match with 2 generations distance, estimation is in the 14th century. his surname is portuguese. But I trace my lineage farther than he does. By 100 years. And with this new geneology potential match by 200 estimation or 180 years

Fatherland
25-05-19, 15:02
Pripet marshes, was the best candidate for early Slavs
This.

And Albanians are direct descendants of the Illyrians. J2b2-L283, R1b-L23, E-V13 all found in the Ancient Western Balkan samples.

You should test yourself and see what haplo you got.

Trojet
25-05-19, 16:09
The L283 sample(s) found in Sardinia were from the Nuragic era which saw the arrival of the Bonannaro culture in Sardinia. The Bonannaro culture was from northern Italy/Central Europe. So the L283 in Sardinia likely came from continental Europe.


@wanderer
Forget these lunatic theories about ancient greeks or phoenecians.
J2b-L283 expanded in the bronze age 3000-2000 BC, so loooong before greeks or phoenecians existed.
On top of that, the nuragic samples showed steppe ancestry, just like every single J2b-L283 we have found in ancient DNA so far.
We have even found L283 north of the caucasus in ancient DNA.
So it has basically been known beyond any doubt for a couple of years now that this lineage spread with indo-european expansions in SE Europe. Specifically Italic and Albanian branch.

I know you would like to claim phoenecian ancestry, but I am afraid to tell you that you won't find it by looking at your Y-haplogroup.
If you are that obsessed, play with some autosomal calculators until you get some phoenecian ancestry in there ffs.
And stop spamming this thread with your damn nonsense theories kids

Pretty much agree with the points made in the above posts.

He is the same guy who just a few months ago was claiming that J-L283 expanded from Sardinia. Now, he claims it arrived there 1000 BC and later with Phoenicians, Carthagenians, etc. Yet, we already have J-L283 from BA Sardinia (~1200 BC). He is the J-Z600* sample on YFull. It looks like now he is dreaming of some Phoenician ancestors and thinks will find it in J-L283. He doesn't seem to understand that in order for the Phoenicians and Carthagenians to spread it, they would have to have it in the first place. There is practically zero J-L283 in North Africa and the Levant. The only known J-L283 Levantine cluster is represented by YF08654. He is downstream of J-L283>Z597+, the same branch as BA Croatia which was found ~3600 ybp in Croatia, well before Phoenicians were even mentioned. Furthermore, the Levantine sample splits from an Albanian sample ca. 3000 ybp, and forms a founder effect which dates only ~2000 ybp.

Wanderer
25-05-19, 17:01
Pretty much agree with the points made in the above posts.

He is the same guy who just a few months ago was claiming that J-L283 expanded from Sardinia. Now, he claims it arrived there in 800 BC or later with Phoenicians, Carthagenians, etc. Yet, we already have J-L283 from BA Sardinia (~1200 BC). He is the J-Z600* sample on YFull. It looks like now he is dreaming of some Phoenician ancestors and thinks will find it in J-L283. He doesn't seem to understand that in order for the Phoenicians and Carthagenians to spread it, they would have to have it in the first place. There is practically zero J-L283 in North Africa and the Levant. The only known J-L283 Levantine cluster is represented by YF08654. He is downstream of J-L283>Z597+, the same branch as BA Croatia which was found ~3600 ybp in Croatia, well before Phoenicians were even mentioned. Furthermore, the Levantine sample splits from an Albanian sample ca. 3000 ybp, and forms a founder effect which dates only ~2000 ybp.

1200 bc is very close to 1000 bc.
North african samples can be under represented. North africans/ caucaus/ middle eastern peoples arent testing dna themselves nearly as much as Europeans. also the carthagenians were exterminated as I have said before. This is including after the romans conquered carthage. As cato the elder used to say, carthage should be destroyed. When talking politics with carthage.

The modern levantine sample +z585 could have very easily been from a mercenary or migrant from the balkans. As its J -L283 with Z585. What this means is that its possible a Lebanon -z585 sample is still not discovered yet if there is a Istanbul -z585 sample discovered.

Also I have to ask where does it say those JL283 like JYp29 are 1200bc? Its still a close estimate to 1000bc

Ernekar
25-05-19, 17:07
1200 bc is very close to 1000 bc.
North african samples can be under represented. North africans/ caucaus/ middle eastern peoples arent testing dna themselves nearly as much as Europeans. also the carthagenians were exterminated as I have said before. This is including after the romans conquered carthage. As cato the elder used to say, carthage should be destroyed. When talking politics with carthage.

The modern levantine sample +z585 could have very easily been from a mercenary or migrant from the balkans. As its J -L283 with Z585. What this means is that its possible a Lebanon -z585 sample is still not discovered yet if there is a Istanbul z585 sample discovered.

Also I have to ask where does it say those JL283 like JYp29 are 1200bc? Its still a close estimate to 1000bc
We have J2b-L283* in north caucasus bronze age. So most likely this haplogroup as a whole spread through the black sea towards the balkans at that time. Either a northern route through the steppe, or a southern route through Anatolia. Steppe ancestry in all ancient J2b-L283 so far seems to make the northern steppe route most plausible.

Instead of talking about what samples we "could have had" in a imaginary world, lets focus on the samples that actually do have, that is; all of them in IE-speaking areas and all of them with steppe ancestry. None in the levant, none in africa. Easy as that.

Wanderer
25-05-19, 17:34
Look at Y full
J-YP29 is given TMRCA 2400 years Before present. Thats 400 BC

Their total range is 3800-1350ybp
So their total range is 1780 bc - 670 Ad

Thats a range of 2450 years
Half of 2450 is 1225

Also 1780 - 1225 = 555 which is 555bc
1780 ×.20 = 356
555bc +/ - 356 years

J-yp157 is not given estimate nor j-yp71 nor mine or the Istanbul sample

Wanderer
25-05-19, 17:43
We have J2b-L283* in north caucasus bronze age. So most likely this haplogroup as a whole spread through the black sea towards the balkans at that time. Either a northern route through the steppe, or a southern route through Anatolia. Steppe ancestry in all ancient J2b-L283 so far seems to make the northern steppe route most plausible.

Instead of talking about what samples we "could have had" in a imaginary world, lets focus on the samples that actually do have, that is; all of them in IE-speaking areas and all of them with steppe ancestry. None in the levant, none in africa. Easy as that.

The black sea route is highly plausible for +z585. NOT -z585.
-Z585 had to go to sardinia which is not a black sea route. Its a medditerenean sea route, for J-YP29 sailed from anatolia or lebanon.

Supported by J-yp29 being TMRCA of 400 BC

Ernekar
25-05-19, 19:10
The black sea route is highly plausible for +z585. NOT -z585.
-Z585 had to go to sardinia which is not a black sea route. Its a medditerenean sea route, for J-YP29 sailed from anatolia or lebanon.

Supported by J-yp29 being TMRCA of 400 BC
There is nothing support that it should have come from Lebanon.
Most probable routes for how YP29 reached Sardinia is:
1. Caucasus->Pontic steppe->Balkans->Mainland Italy->Sardinia
2. Caucasus->Anatolia->Mediterranean by boat->Sardinia
3. Caucasus->Anatolia->Balkans->Mainland Italy->Sardinia
4. Caucasus->Black sea by boat->Balkans->Mainland Italy->Sardinia
5. Caucasus->Black sea by boat->Passing Bosphorus by boat->Mediterranean by boat->Sardinia
6. Caucasus->Pontic steppe->Balkans->Mediterranean by boat->Sardinia

Neither ancient DNA nor modern distribution of subclades point towards the levant as having any relevance at all for this haplogroup.

The TMRCA of YP29 being 2400 years doesn't mean much in regards to when it came to sardinia, because we have dozens of L283 subclades in sardinia with TMRCA's of 4-5000 years. So unless Sardinia was some kind of magnet for all kinds of J-L283 subclades in prehistory, I don't see how the TMCR of YP29 is relevant for mapping out the initial migration routes of L283 as a whole.

Trojet
25-05-19, 19:19
There is nothing support that it should have come from Lebanon.
Most probable routes for how YP29 reached Sardinia is:
1. Caucasus->Pontic steppe->Balkans->Mainland Italy->Sardinia
2. Caucasus->Anatolia->Mediterranean by boat->Sardinia
3. Caucasus->Anatolia->Balkans->Mainland Italy->Sardinia
4. Caucasus->Black sea by boat->Balkans->Mainland Italy->Sardinia
5. Caucasus->Black sea by boat->Passing Bosphorus by boat->Mediterranean by boat->Sardinia
6. Caucasus->Pontic steppe->Balkans->Mediterranean by boat->Sardinia

Neither ancient DNA nor modern distribution of subclades point towards the levant as having any relevance at all for this haplogroup.

The TMRCA of YP29 being 2400 years doesn't mean much in regards to when it came to sardinia, because we have dozens of L283 subclades in sardinia with TMRCA's of 4-5000 years. So unless Sardinia was some kind of magnet for all kinds of J-L283 subclades in prehistory, I don't see how the TMCR of YP29 is relevant for mapping out the initial migration routes of L283 as a whole.

Forget about this guy and his imagination.

We might soon have an Albanian sample in the J-YP29 subclade ;)

Dibran
25-05-19, 19:27
Pripet marshes, was the best candidate for early Slavs


Despite what T-rolls say, J2-L283/E-V13/R1b-L23 were all found in bronze age balkan samples. These dominate amongst Albanians. The naysayers will try tirelessly to disprove this, but it only makes their narrative more disjointed and nonsensical. For instance, that Carlos dude on his blog basically says E-V13 especially, with J2b and R1b in Albanians was spread from around Moravia with the Slavs. They will try tirelessly to prove Albanians are not native in their lands, because they're afraid of what the future might bring when its proven with more and more data.

About Pripyat, Around, not in. Archaeological digs have found no evidence of habitation within pripyat as far as I know, only around it. They likely descend from around the zone of the Neuri and controlled/passed through pripyat. Z280 however has been found from north-east europe to the black sea from bronze to iron age. So they likely weren't restricted to that specific zone. I think its more likely I2a1b was around the pripyat and that once Z280 from Milograd and M458 from Lusatians converged around the pripyat, the Proto-Slavs were formed. Many connect Neuri to them, which corresponds to the Proto-Slavic Urheimat. We need ancient I2a1b/M458 around where they found Z280 in the urheimat to confirm that obviously. Heres where Proto-Slavic falls, covering from pripyat south down the dneister near the prut. The oldest Proto-Slavic place-names are the red dots. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Balto-Slavic_lng.png

Trojet
25-05-19, 19:47
Look at Y full
J-YP29 is given TMRCA 2400 years Before present. Thats 400 BC
Their total range is 3800-1350ybp
So their total range is 1780 bc - 670 Ad
Thats a range of 2450 years
Half of 2450 is 1225
Also 1780 - 1225 = 555 which is 555bc
1780 ×.20 = 356
555bc +/ - 356 years
J-yp157 is not given estimate nor j-yp71 nor mine or the Istanbul sample

The TMRCA of J-YP29 is not very precise because the Sardinian samples are low coverage. I would guess it's at least 3000 ybp. The same situation with J-Z600>YP157. However, we know that J-YP157 formed ~5400 ybp (TMRCA of J-Z600), and the fact that Sardinians under J-YP157 share only 4 SNPs, indicates that their TMRCA is around the middle bronze age. So this suggests that even the J-Z600 (Z585-) lineages were not far from Sardinia during the middle bronze age (perhaps the region around the Adriatic). In any case, absolutely no evidence they were in the Levant! While you and the Istanbul sample have "no TMRCA" because you currently have no closer relatives than the J-Z600 mutation.

I'm sorry, but among other things, you seem to have issues interpreting the YFull tree.

Ernekar
25-05-19, 19:48
Forget about this guy and his imagination.
You are right. If a person chooses not to understand, there is not much I can do.



We might soon have an Albanian sample in the J-YP29 subclade ;)
Interesting. It would also make great sense.
Can't wait to see more albanians on Yfull :)

Wanderer
25-05-19, 20:56
The TMRCA of J-YP29 is not very precise because the Sardinian samples are low coverage. I would guess it's at least 3000 ybp. The same situation with J-Z600>YP157. However, we know that J-YP157 formed ~5400 ybp (TMRCA of J-Z600), and the fact that Sardinians under J-YP157 share only 4 SNPs, indicates that their TMRCA is around the middle bronze age. So this suggests that even the J-Z600 (Z585-) lineages were not far from Sardinia during the middle bronze age (perhaps the region around the Adriatic). In any case, absolutely no evidence they were in the Levant! While you and the Istanbul sample have "no TMRCA" because you currently have no closer relatives than the J-Z600 mutation.

I'm sorry, but among other things, you seem to have issues interpreting the YFull tree.

Me and the istanbul sample dont need a TMRCA at 1000 years. Its very possible the the split was in western asia 5400 ybp between me and his sample but his still stayed in western asia. Like how you argue its european even though the split for Z585 was 5400 years ago... and none were in europe yet.

so z585 was still in western asia / caucaus 5400 ybp because there is no evidence of z585 in the balkans 5400ybp , not in mainland europe at 5400 ybp. So z585 came into europe later at around 1600 bc. Thats because we have ancient sample of that. Theres no evidence they came priot to that croatian sample! And that clade was already a very deep subclade of Z585 / 615!But none prior to that sample in the balkans!



Z558 migrated to europe at that time

For JYP29 3000ybp is still 1000BC. Which is still close to when the Carthagenians landed in sardinia XD

Also JYP29 is not Jz600. Its a mutation after it. He has mutations after Jyp29 also.
You dont find jyp29 in mainland europe...

Also it says J-L283 formed 9600 YBP


It wasnt in europe when J-L283 formed.
It was in west asia or the caucus.

Some how you want to argue -585 is european at 5400bc because Z585 /615 migrated at 1600 bc instead of 5400bc ???

Makes no sense. It only shows these lineages split. Which is the point, because you do not find -z585 with positive Z585 in the balkans or mainland europe. And if you find z585 they arent J-Z615 which is 98.9999999999 percent of european J-z615.
And the sardinian samples are nowhere on mainland. Nor is any z858 until 1600bc. Nevermind showing


All the mainland european samples are 615. Which they split 4700ybp (2700BC) according to Y full if you wanted to even compare the sardinian z585 samples.

So from 5400 ybp to 4700ybp they were still in the caucus and west asia.


So if its not even z585 why would you argue its mainland european -z585 came in with z615? Theres no evidence for that.

5400 ybp (3400 BC) some basal -z585 split from each other. They obviously were still in georgia. Theres no evidence of them being in europe at 3400 bc.

Z585 (-615) happens they remain in west asia. We know this because these lineages dont exist in the balkans or on main land europe.

615 lineages, exist everywhere in europe. They break apart 4700ybp. So 615 lineages migrated to europe afterwords at 1600bc, not -615.

The non 615 were still in west asia and caucus.

Mines migrated from west asia because my most distant ancestor lineage is looking to be from sidonia.

We also have armenian predicted J-L283. So what does that mean? What happens if they are shown deep subclades of Z615?

The ancient Croatian sample was already a deep clade of 615. So its no way related 615 samples and definitely not -z585. That supports that subclades of z615 migrated into europe at 1600bc. Not -615 lineages.

Leka
25-05-19, 20:59
Doesn’t the Istanbul sample claim to be with origin from the Balkans?

Wanderer
25-05-19, 21:12
Doesn’t the Istanbul sample claim to be with origin from the Balkans?No. He doesnt know. Also he has a greek surname. But that doesnt mean his origins is from greece. It just means the ethnic identity was. Greeks hellenized people from west asia and other places. Also carians the first peoples in the greek islands are from west asia in caria, modern day turkey.

Trojet
25-05-19, 21:23
Me and the istanbul sample dont need a TMRCA at 1000 years. Its very possible the the split was in western asia 5400 ybp between me and his sample but his still stayed in western asia. Like how you argue its european even though the split for Z585 was 5400 years ago... and none were in europe yet.
so z585 was still in western asia / caucaus 5400 ybp because there is no evidence of z585 in the balkans 5400ybp , not in mainland europe at 5400 ybp. So z585 came into europe later at around 1600 bc. Thats because we have ancient sample of that. Theres no evidence they came priot to that croatian sample! And that clade was already a very deep subclade of Z585 / 615!But none prior to that sample in the balkans!
Z558 migrated to europe at that time
For JYP29 3000ybp is still 1000BC. Which is when the Carthagenians landed in sardinia XD
Also JYP29 is not Jz600. Its a mutation after it
Also it says J-L283 formed 9600 YBP
It wasnt in europe when J-L283 formed.
It was in west asia or the caucus.
Some how you want to argue -585 is european at 5400bc because Z585 migrated at 1600 bc instead of 5400bc ???
Makes no sense. It only shows these lineages split. Which is the point, because you do not find -z585 with positive Z585 in the balkans or mainland europe. And if you find z585 they arent J-Z615 which is 98.9999999999 percent of european J-z615.
And the sardinian samples are nowhere on mainland. Nor is any z858 until 1600bc. Nevermind showing
All the mainland european samples are 615. Which they split 4700ybp (2700BC) according to Y full if you wanted to even compare the sardinian z585 samples.
So from 5400 ybp to 4700ybp they were still in the caucus and west asia.
So if its not even z585 why would you argue its mainland european -z585 came in with z615? Theres no evidence for that.
5400 ybp (3400 BC) some basal -z585 split from each other. They obviously were still in georgia. Theres no evidence of them being in europe at 3400 bc.
Z585 (-615) happens they remain in west asia. We know this because these lineages dont exist in the balkans or on main land europe.
615 lineages, exist everywhere in europe. They break apart 4700ybp. So 615 lineages migrated to europe at this time, not -615.
The non 615 were still in west asia and caucus.
Mines migrated from west asia because my most distant ancestor lineage is looking to be from sidonia.
We also have armenian predicted J-L283. So what does that mean? What happens if they are shown deep subclades of Z615?
The ancient Croatian sample was already a deep clade of 615. So its no way related -615 samples and definitely not -z585.

I was trying to help you interpret the YFull tree. Instead, it appears you're going back to writing long walls containing imaginary things.

Do you even see a single North African anywhere within L283, which would support your theory that the Carthagenians carried it into Sardnia? Besides the Istanbul sample, who literally has a Greek sounding surname, do you see a single West Asian anywhere between L283 and Z615? BTW, in case you didn't know, Istanbul is a border region between Balkans and Anatolia. We don't know where L283>Z600 expanded from 5400 ybp, but there is absolutely no evidence it did from the Levant. Ancient origin of J-L283 is most definitely in the Caucasus region, however. For your own lineage, as you rightly said, your closest match is someone with origin from Portugal and not west Asia.

Dema
25-05-19, 21:31
I was trying to help you interpret the YFull tree. Instead, it appears you're going back to writing long walls containing imaginary things.

Do you even see a single North African anywhere within L283, which would support your theory that the Carthagenians carried it into Sardnia? Besides the Istanbul sample, who literally has a Greek sounding surname, do you see a single West Asian anywhere between L283 and Z615? BTW, in case you didn't know, Istanbul is a border region between Balkans and Anatolia. We don't know where L283>Z600 expanded from 5400 ybp, but there is absolutely no evidence it did from the Levant. Ancient origin of J-L283 is most definitely in the Caucasus region, however. For your own lineage, as you rightly said, your closest match is someone with origin from Portugal and not west Asia.


Wanderer is looks like some kid who enjoys in trillion of various fantasies or things that come up to his mind prior to sleeping time in bed. I would suggest not taking him too seriously or lose nerves over him. At least he is trying to understand, got to give him some credit for that.

Wanderer
25-05-19, 21:40
Wanderer is looks like some kid who enjoys in trillion of various fantasies or things that come up to his mind prior to sleeping time in bed. I would suggest not taking him too seriously or lose nerves over him. At least he is trying to understand, got to give him some credit for that.The fact is. The croation sample is a deep clade of 615.
615 splits from -615 at 4700 ybp
2700bc
Theres no evidence of JL283 in europe until 1600 BC for ancient samples.
So for about thousand years we have 615 lineages growing and mutating in west asia and georgia which is why they come into europe at 1600 bc as a deep clade of 615. Not -615. And not too mention its only 1 sample from a group sample. It doesnt even mean it was a large settlement of J -L283. Meaning there was no population. This is just a single case that could have been an explorer or mercenary traveling around. As the others tested weren't J-L283

Trojet
25-05-19, 21:47
Yes, of course, the Croatian J-L283 kid from 3600 ybp was just some isolated Wanderer who came from the Levant or West Asia right at the time he was found. You have it all figured out :laughing:

Keep it up with the imagination. Have a nice day!

Wanderer
25-05-19, 21:48
I was trying to help you interpret the YFull tree. Instead, it appears you're going back to writing long walls containing imaginary things.

Do you even see a single North African anywhere within L283, which would support your theory that the Carthagenians carried it into Sardnia? Besides the Istanbul sample, who literally has a Greek sounding surname, do you see a single West Asian anywhere between L283 and Z615? BTW, in case you didn't know, Istanbul is a border region between Balkans and Anatolia. We don't know where L283>Z600 expanded from 5400 ybp, but there is absolutely no evidence it did from the Levant. Ancient origin of J-L283 is most definitely in the Caucasus region, however. For your own lineage, as you rightly said, your closest match is someone with origin from Portugal and not west Asia.

Original Carthagenians come from west asia but used mercernaries also. They arent native north africans.original carthagenians are from west asia.
Also carthagenians were wiped out after they lost to rome. They were genocided.

Theres not a single mainland -615 lineage. So i dont understand the arguements. The only 1 who actually has done geneology finds that his most possible candidate has origins from sidonia which is the oldest european settlement and was founded by the phonecians.
Its not because i want to be carthagenian ect. Its because thats what geneology has led me to. A place founded by carthage. His lineage extends to a person who was born around the early 1600s and is from sidonia (medina sidonia).. only about 100-120 years after spains reconquista. Also the surname is from that area actually comes from andalusian meaning rock. It has different origins than someone from like catalonia with the same name.

Ernekar
25-05-19, 22:00
The fact is. The croation sample is a deep clade of 615.
615 splits from -615 at 4700 ybp
2700bc
Theres no evidence of JL283 in europe until 1600 BC for ancient samples.
So for about thousand years we have 615 lineages growing and mutating in west asia and georgia which is why they come into europe at 1600 bc as a deep clade of 615. Not -615. And not too mention its only 1 sample from a group sample. It doesnt even mean it was a large settlement of J -L283. Meaning there was no population. This is just a single case that could have been an explorer or mercenary traveling around. As the others tested weren't J-L283

How could he be a mercenary or explorer, when he was 7 years old at the time of his death?

Also his archaeological site was nothing out of the usual for his area.
1. Material culture corressponds with other sites.
2. He had fractures on his arms from defence wounds, and healed fractures on his skull from earlier in his life, indicating that these were people who had martial training from a very young age. Probably when they were as young as 4-5 years old. Practically everyone in the area, including this site, have defence wounds and healed skull fractures, probably done by blunt weapons like clubs.
This does not indicate that these men were the typical seafaring merchant to me, but rather warriors who died where they lived, namely the bronze age western balkans
3. He was buried in a kurgan.

Wanderer
25-05-19, 22:03
How could he be a mercenary or explorer, when he was 7 years old at the time of his death?
Also his archaeological site was nothing out of the usual for his area.
1. Material culture corressponds with other sites.
2. He had fractures on his arms from defence wounds, and healed fractures on his skull from earlier in his life, indicating that these were people who had martial training from a very young age. Probably when they were as young as 4-5 years old. Practically everyone in the area, including this site, have defence wounds and healed skull fractures, probably done by blunt weapons like clubs.
This does not indicate that these men were the typical seafaring merchant to me, but rather warriors who died where they lived, namely the bronze age western balkans

7 years old with bone fractures. So it means he was beat and abused and got killed at 7. It doesnt mean he was a warrior at 7.

this actually tells me he was probably kidnapped and sold into slavery probably
Considering that the others tested around him were not J-l283
Its possible the used slaves in training or to even train as warriors. But no free person would have their kid die at 7 and suffer fractures constantly at ages 5 and 6.
"Healed skull fractures"
At 7. Lets say this happened at 5 years old. And was common. Yikes.

Ernekar
25-05-19, 22:06
@wanderer
Everyone in the area have the same fractures.
Why would they burry a slave in a kurgan warrior grave? :D

Anyways, im done here. I see that you are either just a troII out to provoke, our just simply uncapable of understanding extremely simple argumentation.
Have a nice day

Wanderer
25-05-19, 22:13
@wanderer
Everyone in the area have the same fractures.
Why would they burry a slave in a kurgan warrior grave? :D

Anyways, im done here. I see that you are either just a troII out to provoke, our just simply uncapable of understanding extremely simple argumentation.
Have a nice day

Im not a T roll. You didnt tell me he was buried in kurgan warrior burial. You told me he had skull fractures that healed in and died at 7. I would think the kid was beaten and abused. Child abuse was likely common in those days. And slavery also.

Also others around him are not J -l283. So they dont have the same paternal origins.

Wanderer
25-05-19, 22:18
Also where is the source saying he was buried in a kurgan warrior grave?

Dema
25-05-19, 22:21
Original Carthagenians come from west asia but used mercernaries also. They arent native north africans.original carthagenians are from west asia.
Also carthagenians were wiped out after they lost to rome. They were genocided.

Theres not a single mainland -615 lineage. So i dont understand the arguements. The only 1 who actually has done geneology finds that his most possible candidate has origins from sidonia which is the oldest european settlement and was founded by the phonecians.
Its not because i want to be carthagenian ect. Its because thats what geneology has led me to. A place where carthage was founded. His lineage extends to a person who was born around the early 1600s and is from sidonia.. only 100 years after spains reconquista.



No, you are wrong. Carthage was Sidon-Byblos-Tyre expansion and colony. They were Semitic speakers from territories of modern day Lebanon. Also there are two Sidonian ancient DNA tested, one is J2-M205 and another J1-P58. J2-L283 spread with Indo-Europeans and is strongly associated with both Illyrians and Albanians (Indo-European language group).


You dont need rocket scientists to realise that L-283 spread with IE only when looking on Yfull - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/
Look, its formed 9600 years ago, so prior to Phoenicians, and its TMRCA is 5400 years mostly among IE speakers, i dont see how Phoenicians could fit here.



Please dont reply with rows of senseless text, but rather try to understand. Also look at IE language tree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages#/media/File:IndoEuropeanTree.svg

Wanderer
25-05-19, 22:28
No, you are wrong. Carthage was Sidon-Byblos-Tyre expansion and colony. They were Semitic speakers from territories of modern day Lebanon. Also there are two Sidonian ancient DNA tested, one is J2-M205 and another J1-P58. J2-L283 spread with Indo-Europeans and is strongly associated with both Illyrians and Albanians (Indo-European language group).


You dont need rocket scientists to realise that L-283 spread with IE only when looking on Yfull - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/
Look, its formed 9600 years ago, so prior to Phoenicians, and its TMRCA is 5400 years mostly among IE speakers, i dont see how Phoenicians could fit here.



Please dont reply with rows of senseless text, but rather try to understand. Also look at IE language tree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages#/media/File:IndoEuropeanTree.svgOnly the 615 lineages not the -615 lineages.
West asian samples of J-L283

https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-l283-origins-by-diversity-and-subgroups-focus-jewish-lineages/

Morroco sample also
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190525/e3dbe3e4be8a34228056493c578e758e.jpg


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190525/b5cff853387a72cc7da22c1184186280.jpg
Also sidonia was founded by carghagenians.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina-Sidonia

This city was most likely ancient Asido, an Iberian settlement which may have been founded by the Phoenicians, hence the later name Sidonia reflecting its foundation by Sidon. Its earliest phase is known through its coinage and its 2nd and 1st centuries BC issues bear the Latin inscription Asido but also Punic inscriptions such as 'sdn or b'b'l, with Herakles and Dolphins being notable obverse and reverse designs. The Barrington Atlas of the Greek and Roman World equates this site with modern Medina Sidonia-lying within the ancient Roman province of Turdetania some 30 km (19 mi) inland from the southern Spanish coast, this site lay upon a hill c. 35 km (22 mi) to the east of Gades (modern Cadiz), and 15 km (9 mi) to the west of the Besilus river.[2]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidon


Sidon has been inhabited since very early in prehistory. The archaeological site of Sidon II shows a lithic assemblage dating to the Acheulean, whilst finds at Sidon III include a Heavy Neolithic assemblage suggested to date just prior to the invention of pottery.[2] It was one of the most important Phoeniciancities, and it may have been the oldest. From there and other ports a great Mediterranean commercial empire was founded. Homerpraised the skill of its craftsmen in producing glass, purple dyes, and its women's skill at the art of embroidery. It was also from here that a colonizing party went to found the city of Tyre. Tyre also grew into a great city, and in subsequent years there was competition between the two, each claiming to be the metropolis ('Mother City') of Phoenicia. Glass manufacturing, Sidon's most important enterprise in the Phoenician era, was conducted on a vast scale, and the production of purple dye was almost as important. The small shell of the Murex trunculus was broken in order to extract the pigment that was so rare it became the mark of royalty.

Trojet
25-05-19, 22:53
Im not a T roll. You didnt tell me he was buried in kurgan warrior burial. You told me he had skull fractures that healed in and died at 7. I would think the kid was beaten and abused. Child abuse was likely common in those days. And slavery also.
Also others around him are not J -l283. So they dont have the same paternal origins.

And what Y-DNA had these 'other' samples around him from the same time period? That's right, he was the only one with a Y-DNA haplogroup. Stop spamming this thread with made up stuff!




Only the 615 lineages not the -615 lineages.
West asian samples of J-L283
https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-l283-origins-by-diversity-and-subgroups-focus-jewish-lineages/
Morroco sample also
Also sidonia was founded by carghagenians.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina-Sidonia
This city was most likely ancient Asido, an Iberian settlement which may have been founded by the Phoenicians, hence the later name Sidonia reflecting its foundation by Sidon. Its earliest phase is known through its coinage and its 2nd and 1st centuries BC issues bear the Latin inscription Asido but also Punic inscriptions such as 'sdn or b'b'l, with Herakles and Dolphins being notable obverse and reverse designs. The Barrington Atlas of the Greek and Roman World equates this site with modern Medina Sidonia-lying within the ancient Roman province of Turdetania some 30 km (19 mi) inland from the southern Spanish coast, this site lay upon a hill c. 35 km (22 mi) to the east of Gades (modern Cadiz), and 15 km (9 mi) to the west of the Besilus river.[2]

Congrats, you finally found a single north African J-L283 out of ~700 samples :laughing:

Check again, all those Lebanese are under J-Y146400>FGC64029, with a TMRCA (founder) of only ~2000 ybp: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC64029/

https://i.postimg.cc/DZwjgZPv/IMG-20190525-154458.jpg

Dema
25-05-19, 23:08
Only the 615 lineages not the -615 lineages.
West asian samples of J-L283

https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-l283-origins-by-diversity-and-subgroups-focus-jewish-lineages/

Morroco sample also
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190525/e3dbe3e4be8a34228056493c578e758e.jpg


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190525/b5cff853387a72cc7da22c1184186280.jpg



Do you read what you post? Btw that research is outdated there was major and advance research on Indo-Europeans recently.


of L283 groups. Of those samples all with MDKO (most distant known ancestor) not in the New World all are from Europe except the listed kits :


So you found some Levantine samples of L283 and you think that immediately testifies to their Levantine origin?
Do you understand that all of their brother clades are primarily dominated with over 95 % of Europeans going at least 9000 years back?

Finding one sample in Lebanon and one in Morocco for sure does not prove Phoenician theory of L283 lol. These are most likely European descendants. They are minor brother clades to sea of Europeans with most likely neglectable TMRCA, they are most likely expansion since Roman time or perhaps Alexander the Great or something like that.

Tomorrow you can find Chinese samples, will you then claim Chinese origin?

Wanderer
25-05-19, 23:14
And what Y-DNA had these 'other' samples around him from the same time period? That's right, he was the only one with a Y-DNA haplogroup. Stop spamming this thread with made up stuff!




You finally found a single north African J-L283 out of ~700 samples :laughing:

Check again, all those Lebanese are under J-Y146400>FGC64029, with a TMRCA (founder) of only ~2000 ybp:

https://i.postimg.cc/DZwjgZPv/IMG-20190525-154458.jpgMost recent common ancestor was 2000 ybp Thats close to when the phonecians had their downfall.

Notice the lebanese samples are with the iberian decended latin american samples.

What this shows is that lebanese split from from the albanian sample at 0 ad /bc
The albanian sample split from z590 1000bc but was formed 4400 ybp
At 4400 ybp or 2400 bc there was no JL283 in europe. There is no evidence for that.
So they had to be in west asia or caucaus.

It doesnt decend from z2507 like the other europeans. Its an even smaller branch that diverged

Meaning that this pocket of -2507 diverged from the lebanese samples

The brit sample and the belgium are very different lineages from the lebanese J-L283. Because they are not positive for Y146400. They diverged much earlier.

One went to europe (-Y146400)
One stayed in west asia (Y146400)
The albanian diverges at 1000 BC which is close the foundation of Carthage. But phonecia.
And the lebanese samples stay there.

One escapes to the balkans from lebanon at 1000bc. Which is why it doesnt have FGC64029 like the lebanese / iberians do.


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190525/d6acda7fd0c96f0cde767b2864603b8c.jpg
Also phonecia existed since 2500BC
Thats 4500ybp
And phonecians used to attack the balkans and the medditerenean

As you can see this is evidence that early clades of z590 where around lebanon while another branch went into europe.

But the -615 were not in europe.

Dema
25-05-19, 23:16
So there Trojet answered my TMRCA question, so to make it more clear, it is one isolated small branch in Lebanon with tons of European brother clades going back to TMRCA of 5400 years ago.

They have no real connection to Semitic speakers neither to Lebanese people further then 2000 years back, which is Roman time. All of their further relatives are Europeans like from Germany, England, Sweden, Albania and so on....

Wanderer
25-05-19, 23:27
So there Trojet answered my TMRCA question, so to make it more clear, it is one isolated small branch in Lebanon with tons of European brother clades going back to TMRCA of 5400 years.

They have no real connection to Semitic speakers neither to Lebanese people further then 2000 years back, which is Roman time. All of their further relatives are Europeans like from Germany, England, Sweden, Albania and so on....Theres no evidence of the lebanese samples splitting at 3400bc. Theres no european J-l283 shown to even exists at that time.

European Jz2507 shows up when phonecia is founded. It shows up at 4400 ybp which 2400 bc.
Phonecia is founded 2500bc.
Which means that it left lebanon pretty early on when it just had the Jz2507 mutation which is why all europeans come from Jz2507. The ones that are not Jz2507 are case by case. As there is no proof of -615 in mainland europe. Hell that belgium sample could have migrated from georgia 600 years ago. some place in the caucaus or west asia

If he has no geneology going back even 300 years theres no reason to assume its really european. Its not clustered with other european clades.

Trojet
25-05-19, 23:31
What this shows is that lebanese split from from the albanian sample at 0 ad /bc
The albanian sample split from z590 1000bc but was formed 4400 ybp

Are you now just straight up lying, or are you still having trouble interpreting the YFull tree?
Look, they split from the Albanian sample 1000 BC (3000 ypb), and not 0 AD: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z597/

Before you mention Phoenicians again, the aDNA sample from MBA Croatia was also Z597+, and was found there before Phoenicians were even mentioned.

Wanderer
25-05-19, 23:35
Are you now just straight up lying, or are you still having trouble interpreting the YFull tree?
Look, they split from the Albanian sample 1000 BC (3000 ypb), and not 0 AD: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z597/

Before you mention Phoenicians again, the Croatian from 3600 ybp was also Z597+Look again

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190525/dc99260ee738af87d70202107cef5dbb.jpg

Dema
25-05-19, 23:38
The fact is. The croation sample is a deep clade of 615.
615 splits from -615 at 4700 ybp
2700bc
Theres no evidence of JL283 in europe until 1600 BC for ancient samples.
So for about thousand years we have 615 lineages growing and mutating in west asia and georgia which is why they come into europe at 1600 bc as a deep clade of 615. Not -615. And not too mention its only 1 sample from a group sample. It doesnt even mean it was a large settlement of J -L283. Meaning there was no population. This is just a single case that could have been an explorer or mercenary traveling around. As the others tested weren't J-L283

You dont understand anything dont you?

Do you understand that Lebanese samples you posted all fall into FGC64029 SNP, that is formed 3000 years ago and it has TMRCA 1950 years. https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC64029/

Their brother clade is found in Albania https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/ TMRCA 3000 ybp.

And furthermore all of their brother clades are found with over 95 % at Europeans from Russia to Spain and England. Also multiple clades in Albania.

Since except themselves, TMRCA 1950 years, their closest mach is from Albania - Vlora, TMRCA 3000 years, its safe to assume they are of Illyrian origin, most likely thru Alexander the Great or Illyrian soldiers in Roman army.

Wanderer
25-05-19, 23:41
You dont understand anything dont you?

Do you understand that Lebanese samples you posted all fall into FGC64029 SNP, that is formed 3000 years ago and it has TMRCA 1950 years. https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC64029/

Their brother clade is found in Albania https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/ TMRCA 3000 ybp.

And furthermore all of their brother clades are found with over 95 % at Europeans from Russia to Spain and England. Also multiple clades in Albania.

Since except themselves, TMRCA 1950 years, their closest mach is from Albania - Vlora, TMRCA 3000 years, its safe to assume they are of Illyrian descent, most likely thru Alexander the Great or Illyrian soldiers in Roman army.Yes and? They are not J-Z2507.
so whats your point.

Albanian diverged 1000 bc fro. Z590. But that doesnt mean it originates in albania. Incase you cant tell. It means an early offshoot diverged into albanian and never deloped the mutations the lebanese ones did.


3 iberians 3 lebanese. It looks more like the originate from Lebanon since phonecia settled in iberia and waged wars in the medditeranean.

And since its only one albanian it vould either be recent arrival within a thousand years ago. Or one that left furing the phonecian era. As it splits 0 or 2000 ybp from the lebanese.

Dema
25-05-19, 23:46
Yes and? They are not J-Z2507.
so whats your point.



3 iberians 3 lebanese. It looks more like the originate from Lebanon since phonecia settled in iberia and waged wars in the medditeranean.

And since its only one albanian it vould either be recent arrival within a thousand years ago. Or one that left furing the phonecian era. As it splits 1000 bc.


Yes 3 Lebanese, Mexican and Colombian all share TMRCA 1950 ybp, and their first match except themselves is Albanian with who they share same ancestor 3000 ybp.

L283 peaks at Albanians and they have multiple branches. So not only they all come from a guy who lived 1900 years ago, but first genetic connection is to Albanian from Vlora. And all further genetic matches are from Sweden, Denmark, England, and also multiple brother clades among Albanians.

They are most likely European remains of Alexander the Great or Roman soldiers of Illyrian origin...

Wanderer
25-05-19, 23:48
Yes 3 Lebanese, Mexican and Colombian all share TMRCA 1950 ybp, and their first match except themselves is Albanian with who they share same ancestor 3000 ybp.

L283 peaks at Albanians and they have multiple branches. So not only they all come from a guy who lived 1900 years ago, but first genetic connection is to Albanian from Vlora. And all further genetic matches are from Sweden, Denmark, England, and also multiple brother clades among Albanians.

They are most likely European remains of Alexander the great or Roman soldiers of Illyrian origin...
L283 peaks in albania from different clades ( European ones). These clades we are talking about peak in lebanon and latin america. Not albania.

Dema
25-05-19, 23:57
L283 peaks in albania from different clades ( eurppean ones). These clades we are talking about peak in lebanon and latin america. Not albania. Not european really at that time period of mutation.

You are wrong, they all share TMRCA 1900 years and their first closest match except themselves is in Vlora, Albania, with who they share TMRCA 3000 years. Look - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/

Also Albanians have tons of brother clades to all of them.. With way higher TMRCA then Middle East or North Africa.


This is like by the book sample of Illyrian Roman soldiers leaving tracefoots in Middle East.

Trojet
26-05-19, 00:22
You are wrong, they all share TMRCA 1900 years and their first closest match except themselves is in Vlora, Albania, with who they share TMRCA 3000 years. Look - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/
Also Albanians have tons of brother clades to all of them.. With way higher TMRCA then Middle East or North Africa.
This is like by the book sample of Illyrian Roman soldiers leaving tracefoots in Middle East.

Yes, in order to make a good argument that these Lebanese are of Phoenician origin, the TMRCA amongst themselves should be 3000+ ybp and not only 1900 ypb. Instead, they share that TMRCA with a south Albanian sample, which points to their distant origin as the brother clade, J-Z2507, is as Western Balkan as it gets.

Here is another haplogroup with a similar phylogeny that has Albanian and Italian (Sardinian) samples upstream, and a Lebanese cluster with a very similar TMRCA. This time their closest match outside themselves is an Italian from south Italy, right across the Adriatic: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z29758/

Dema
26-05-19, 00:32
Of course he is wrong. In order to make a good argument that these Lebanese are of Phoenician origin, the TMRCA amongst themselves should be 3000+ ybp and not only 1900 ypb. Instead, they share that TMRCA with a south Albanian sample.

Here is another haplogroup with a similar phylogeny that has Albanian and Italian (Sardinian) samples upstream, and a Lebanese cluster with a very similar TMRCA. This time their closest match outside themselves is an Italian from southern Italy, right across the Adriatic: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z29758/


I heard that besides Albanian, Lebanese female are among beautiest in the world. I cant blame them for enjoying all the goods when they are offered :)
They have plenty of Albanian brother clades and their TMRCA fits like exactly in time of Roman rule...

Roman rule

The last century of Seleucid rule was marked by disorder and dynastic struggles. These ended in 64 BC, when the Roman general Pompey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompey) added Seleucid Syria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seleucid_Syria) and Lebanon as a Roman province (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenice_(Roman_province)) to the Roman Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire). Economic and intellectual activities flourished in Lebanon during the Pax Romana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Romana). The inhabitants of the principal Phoenician cities of Byblos, Sidon, and Tyre were granted Roman citizenship (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_citizenship). These cities were centers of the pottery, glass, and purple dye industries; their harbors also served as warehouses for products imported from Syria, Persia, and India. They exported cedar, perfume, jewelry, wine, and fruit to Rome. Economic prosperity led to a revival in construction and urban development; temples and palaces were built throughout the country, as well as paved roads that linked the cities.
Upon the death of Theodosius I (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodosius_I) in 395 AD, the empire was divided in two: the eastern or Byzantine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire) part with its capital at Constantinople (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople), and the western (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Roman_Empire) part with its capital at Rome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome). Under the Byzantine Empire, intellectual and economic activities in Beirut, Tyre, and Sidon continued to flourish for more than a century. However, in the 6th century a series of earthquakes demolished the temples of Baalbek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baalbek) and destroyed the city of Beirut, leveling its famous law school (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_School_of_Beirut) and killing nearly 30,000 inhabitants. To these natural disasters were added the abuses and corruptions prevailing at that time in the empire. Heavy tributes and religious dissension produced disorder and confusion. Furthermore, the ecumenical councils of the 5th and 6th centuries were unsuccessful in settling religious disagreements. This turbulent period weakened the empire and made it easy prey to the newly converted Muslim (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) Arabs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab) of the Arabian Peninsula (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_Peninsula).


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Lebanon#Roman_rule

Wanderer
26-05-19, 18:50
Yes, in order to make a good argument that these Lebanese are of Phoenician origin, the TMRCA amongst themselves should be 3000+ ybp and not only 1900 ypb. Instead, they share that TMRCA with a south Albanian sample, which points to their distant origin as the brother clade, J-Z2507, is as Western Balkan as it gets.

Here is another haplogroup with a similar phylogeny that has Albanian and Italian (Sardinian) samples upstream, and a Lebanese cluster with a very similar TMRCA. This time their closest match outside themselves is an Italian from south Italy, right across the Adriatic: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z29758/Still not really
the albanian has tmrca 3000 ybp from z590

And it has a range of 3900 ybp ,- 2200 ybp
Thats 1880 bc - 180 bc .
Phonecians existed from
2500bc to 539 bc

At 64 bc also is when phonecia becomes a roman colony also


The albanian tmrca at 3000 ybp from z590 fits very well into the phonecian range.

But also
Because the albanians and the Lebanese are both -J-Z2507 theres more lebanese / iberians that are -J-Z2507.
They both split from J-Z2507 4400 ybp which is aboyt 2400bc.


Now for albanian and lebanese spliting from each other.

The lebanese formed 3000ybp = 1000 bc


But their whole range for tmrca from the albanian is 2800- 1300ybp which is
800 bc -700 ad.
The albanian left snd never developed the mutations the lebanese iberian samples did. The lebanese and iberians do share the same mutation that differentiates them from the albanian. With tmrca range 800 bc - 700ad

The tree gives it year 0 estimate even though it has a 100 year greater difference in range for bc.

Also notice J-Z2507 tmrca from the albanian and 4400 ybp
Thats close to 2400bc .
Foundation of carthage is 2500bc
As well.


J-Z2507

And these go clearly go off into europe. Spread like wild fire there.


It still fits within the possibility of phonecian split / lebanese split
146 BC is when rome finishes off carthage

J-Z2507 -638 spread out all over it seems passing through balkans mainly and mainland

J-Z638 probably spreads out closer to the medditerenean but albanians get a hyper specific offshoot at J-PH2967 that stays in the balkans.

Most of the other clades look all over the place in europe for now but russisns get a very spefic offshoot at
J-Y12000

Dema
26-05-19, 19:27
Still not really
the albanian has tmrca 3000 ybp from z590

And it has a range of 3900 ybp ,- 2200 ybp
Thats 1880 bc - 180 bc .
Phonecians existed from
2500bc to 539 bc

At 64 bc also is when phonecia becomes a roman colony also


The albanian tmrca at 3000 ybp from z590 fits very well into the phonecian range.

But also
Because the albanians and the Lebanese are both -J-Z2507 theres more lebanese / iberians that are -J-Z2507.
They both split from J-Z2507 4400 ybp which is aboyt 2400bc.


Now for albanian and lebanese spliting from each other.

The lebanese formed 3000ybp = 1000 bc


But their whole range for tmrca from the albanian is 2800- 1300ybp which is
800 bc -700 ad.
The albanian left snd never developed the mutations the lebanese iberian samples did. The lebanese and iberians do share the same mutation that differentiates them from the albanian. With tmrca range 800 bc - 700ad

The tree gives it year 0 estimate even though it has a 100 year greater difference in range for bc.

Also notice J-Z2507 tmrca from the albanian and 4400 ybp
Thats close to 2400bc .
Foundation of carthage is 2500bc
As well.


J-Z2507

And these go clearly go off into europe. Spread like wild fire there.


It still fits within the possibility of phonecian split / lebanese split
146 BC is when rome finishes off carthage

J-Z2507 -638 spread out all over it seems passing through balkans mainly and mainland

J-Z638 probably spreads out closer to the medditerenean but albanians get a hyper specific offshoot at J-PH2967 that stays in the balkans.

Most of the other clades look all over the place in europe for now but russisns get a very spefic offshoot at
J-Y12000


Yet again you spam with walls of text while you dont understand anything.

You found 3 living L283 samples with TMRCA 1900 ybp from Lebanon among 1000 European brotherclades and somehow you want to claim their Phoenician origin....

Its Illyrian Balkan haplogroup, and its obvious early split happened in Balkan 3000 ybp. It for sure didnt spread from Lebanon or Carthage unless Phoenicians expanded from Russia to Spain in timeframe of 5500 ybp and they left no traces in Middle East except this 2 or 3 samples you managed to find within one branch with 1900 years TMRCA. lol this is like ridiculous

Wanderer
26-05-19, 19:42
Yet again you spam with walls of text while you dont understand anything.

You found 3 living L283 samples with TMRCA 1900 ybp from Lebanon among 1000 European brotherclades and somehow you want to claim their Phoenician origin....

Its Illyrian Balkan haplogroup, and its obvious early split happened in Balkan 3000 ybp. It for sure didnt spread from Lebanon or Carthage unless Phoenicians expanded from Russia to Spain in timeframe of 5500 ybp.

3 very clear things. Let me try to make this very much shorter shorter for you because you seem to get lost reading through too much text. I mean no offense. I can understand its alot and my typing is not grade A.


J-Z2507 splits from the albanian and lebanese at 2400 bc. Foundation of phonecia ( not carthage, i use them interchangeably sometimes)

Albanian formed at 2400bc but has tmrca to basal 590 at 1000bc
The lebanese share this. Too

Lebanese and iberians share mutations that the albanian sample does not have. Meaning that the albanian left the lebanese /iberians earlier and didnt develop the J-FGC64029 mutatio.
The iberian lebanese samples are closer than the albanian. they both share with a tmrca range of 800bc -700 ad.


‐--------‐‐--------‐‐--------‐‐--------‐‐--------‐‐--------‐
Off point topic
I think you are letting this illyrian pride make you bias about this. Which i have no problem with albanians. Majority of Albanian clades maybe are illyrian. But that one specfic albanian clade was clearly not in that time range. It went into the balkans at much later at 1000bc than J-Z2507

And J-L283 is not all illryian if i dont have a common ancestor with any albanians for up to 5400 ybp. Illryians didnt even exist than
No one is saying they spread into the balkans at 5400 ybp. Im saying why do the iberians and lebanese samples look more related to each other than the albanian? They technically are. Its 3 latin americans and 3 lebanese.

Dema
27-05-19, 01:16
3 very clear things. Let me try to make this very much shorter shorter for you because you seem to get lost reading through too much text. I mean no offense. I can understand its alot and my typing is not grade A.

Its not that i dont understand, even tho you type in broken English, i understand you very well. Its more that you type senseless and illogical things, and you type plenty of them more so confusing yourself then others. Its hard to reply to all of wrong things you said when almost in every sentence you make mistakes and yet you write walls of texts.





J-Z2507 splits from the albanian and lebanese at 2400 bc. Foundation of phonecia ( not carthage, i use them interchangeably sometimes)

No, Z2507 didnt split from Albanian and Lebanese samples but Z2507 is bigger and older brother clade TMRCA and distribution wise.

J2-Z2507 where most of Albanians fall is formed 4400 ybp TMRCA 4400 ybp. J2-Y146400 where Lebanese fall is formed 4400 ybp TMRCA 1950 ybp, together with Albanian from Vlora 3000 ybp, so still lower.

Its not important when Phoenicia neither Carthage are formed if you dont understand these basic things..... You are just spamming with meaningless text.





Albanian formed at 2400bc but has tmrca to basal 590 at 1000bc
The lebanese share this. Too

Stop writing nonsense which even you cant explain what they mean...



Lebanese and iberians share mutations that the albanian sample does not have. Meaning that the albanian left the lebanese /iberians earlier and didnt develop the J-FGC64029 mutatio.
The iberian lebanese samples are closer than the albanian. they both share with a tmrca range of 800bc -700 ad.

Its the other way around, Albanians not sharing FGC64029 and Lebanese sharing it means its modern mutation among them since they find ancestral clade in Albania which shares like 4 private SNPs with them but not FGC64029....

look - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/ lol





‐--------‐‐--------‐‐--------‐‐--------‐‐--------‐‐--------‐
Off point topic
I think you are letting this illyrian pride make you bias about this. Which i have no problem with albanians. Majority of Albanian clades maybe are illyrian. But that one specfic albanian clade was clearly not in that time range. It went into the balkans at much later at 1000bc than J-Z2507

There is no Illyrian pride neither bias lol, actually i claim for my own clade to be of Phoenician origin.
Most likely Illyrianized pretty early on judging by many facts. J2-L283 has plenty of proofs for Illyrian origin, while these lack at M205, on the contrary M205 has plenty of proofs for Phoenician spread thru Mediterranean Sea...

While your clade is exactly the opposite, you are of Illyrian origin that perhaps thru Roman time somehow got to modern day Lebanon.
You are actually Brazilian right? Are you this Brazilian sample under fgc64029 on Yfulll?



And J-L283 is not all illryian if i dont have a common ancestor with any albanians for up to 5400 ybp. Illryians didnt even exist than
No one is saying they spread into the balkans at 5400 ybp. Im saying why do the iberians and lebanese samples look more related to each other than the albanian? They technically are. Its 3 latin americans and 3 lebanese.


I am not saying that all J2-L283 are of Illyrian origin lol, as J2-L283 was spreading with Indo-Europeans thru Europe its natural we find it in most of European speaking countries.

But the deal is that these Lebanese share 4 private SNPs with Albanian from Vlora, putting their TMRCA right into Illyrian period of 1000 BC.
That is why i say they are of Illyrian origin. Even if they would not share these SNPs with anyone i would be 100 % sure that they are of European origin (TMRCA 1900 years, all brother clades with Europeans, and high distribution in Europe, almost exclusive.), but sharing these SNPs with Albanian sample is just the best possible proof you can get.

So this specific clade is for sure connected to Albanians and their TMRCA goes into Illyrian time, im not pulling things out out of my mind, look again lol - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/


Then both Dalmatian and Armenian J2-L283 ancient samples had significant Steppe admixture and Steppe mtDNA.

Also they both fall into IE language group, just as Albanians, and not into Semitic language groups, where Phoenicians fall...


Will you write another wall of senseless things now ?

Wanderer
27-05-19, 03:31
Its not that i dont understand, even tho you type in broken English, i understand you very well. Its more that you type senseless and illogical things, and you type plenty of them more so confusing yourself then others. Its hard to reply to all of wrong things you said when almost in every sentence you make mistakes and yet you write walls of texts.






No, Z2507 didnt split from Albanian and Lebanese samples but Z2507 is bigger and older brother clade TMRCA and distribution wise.

J2-Z2507 where most of Albanians fall is formed 4400 ybp TMRCA 4400 ybp. J2-Y146400 where Lebanese fall is formed 4400 ybp TMRCA 1950 ybp, together with Albanian from Vlora 3000 ybp, so still lower.

Its not important when Phoenicia neither Carthage are formed if you dont understand these basic things..... You are just spamming with meaningless text.






Stop writing nonsense which even you cant explain what they mean...




Its the other way around, Albanians not sharing FGC64029 and Lebanese sharing it means its modern mutation among them since they find ancestral clade in Albania which shares like 4 private SNPs with them but not FGC64029....

look - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/ lol





There is no Illyrian pride neither bias lol, actually i claim for my own clade to be of Phoenician origin.
Most likely Illyrianized pretty early on judging by many facts. J2-L283 has plenty of proofs for Illyrian origin, while these lack at M205, on the contrary M205 has plenty of proofs for Phoenician spread thru Mediterranean Sea...

While your clade is exactly the opposite, you are of Illyrian origin that perhaps thru Roman time somehow got to modern day Lebanon.
You are actually Brazilian right? Are you this Brazilian sample under fgc64029 on Yfulll?





I am not saying that all J2-L283 are of Illyrian origin lol, as J2-L283 was spreading with Indo-Europeans thru Europe its natural we find it in most of European speaking countries.

But the deal is that these Lebanese share 4 private SNPs with Albanian from Vlora, putting their TMRCA right into Illyrian period of 1000 BC.
That is why i say they are of Illyrian origin. Even if they would not share these SNPs with anyone i would be 100 % sure that they are of European origin (TMRCA 1900 years, all brother clades with Europeans, and high distribution in Europe, almost exclusive.), but sharing these SNPs with Albanian sample is just the best possible proof you can get.

So this specific clade is for sure connected to Albanians and their TMRCA goes into Illyrian time, im not pulling things out out of my mind, look again lol - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/


Then both Dalmatian and Armenian J2-L283 ancient samples had significant Steppe admixture and Steppe mtDNA.

Also they both fall into IE language group, just as Albanians, and not into Semitic language groups, where Phoenicians fall...


Will you write another wall of senseless things now ?

Its not Z2507 doesnt share all the deeper mutations the illryian albanian clades do. So wtf are you talking about? It split 2400bc.

Its like trying to argue JYp29 and haplogroup i2i2 are close brother clades because they were IJ.


Dude they have several seperate mutations between them. They dont have common ancestors until 2400bc... When phonecia is started...

And its one albanian clade. Theres more lebanese clades of that branch found than albanians (1) so what are you smoking?
If they break away 1000 bc and you reallly believe its illryian are you suggesting illyrians came from lebanon at 1000 bc?

No
Because its a west asian migrant into the balkan. It was not a native balkan clade already existing there.

Again... you have to ask why is it that the albanian and lebanese clades split at 1000bc. Whats the history to support that albanians invaded phonecia at 1000BC? Lol. None, but there was lots of phonecian piracy and coastal raids. And they dis occupy sardinia where -z585 lineages are.
Did albanians occupy sardinia? No.

But the iberian ones and lebanese are closer?

There is only 2 possible reasons. Either that iberian clades split of into iberian from phonecian carthage migration. Or because the ancestor of these individuals was in fact west asian migrants into latin america.
Not albanins, as you may wish to want. Albanian clades and like rest of europeans are clearly more down stream of the clade
Z2507
Also it doesnt matter if the sample had steppe ancestry via autosomal. What matters is the actual snp mutation and where it is found. If its found in the balkan that shows that spefic lineage was relevant to the balkans. It doesnt mean another clade of several mutations they dont even have was in there.
Its like arguing hypothetically someone has has a new basal clade of mtdna c1d1 but is from cameroon with 99 percent west african ancestry. So therefore the new basal c1d1 clade must be from west african origins.

Also your arguement about the albanian being ancestral was stupid. I am j-627. So does that mean albanians came from spain? Of course not... or belgium, or UK? Or sardinia? Or turkey?
Because we recognize the tmrca of these differences and the actual snps, and the actual locations of where these subclades actually apear more often. Instead of trying to make 2 different clades the same.

It only means that these 2 lineages split at 1000 bc. But we find them more often in lebanese samples, we know phonecians inhabited spain and sardinia.
Albania hasnt. But we know spain also invaded sardinia, we also know spain invaded down by the balkans before.

The balkan ancient sample is also actually 1200 bc.
And its a deep clade at Jy23094

Dema
27-05-19, 04:00
Its not Z2507 doesnt share all the deeper mutations the illryian albanian clades do. So wtf are you talking about? It split 2400bc.



No, Z2507 didnt split from Albanian and Lebanese samples but Z2507 is bigger and older brother clade TMRCA and distribution wise. J2-Z2507 where most of Albanians fall is formed 4400 ybp TMRCA 4400 ybp. J2-Y146400 where Lebanese fall is formed 4400 ybp TMRCA 1950 ybp, together with Albanian from Vlora 3000 ybp, so still lower.



Its like trying to argue JYp29 and haplogroup i2i2 are close brother clades because they were IJ.


What are haplogroups JYp299 and i2i2, are you disabled or what? IJ split one from another 30 000 years ago, while your clade split from Albanians 3000 years ago, yes you are indeed. Why would you otherwise mention this.
You just want to trǿll and type nonsense dont you? Why dont you go bother someone else instead since everyone told you that you are nuts and you still push with various stupidity.




Dude they have several seperate mutations between them. They dont have common ancestors until 2400bc... When phonecia is started...

And its one albanian clade. Theres more lebanese clades of that branch found than albanians (1) so what are you smoking?
If they break away 1000 bc and you reallly believe its illryian are you suggesting illyrians came from lebanon at 1000 bc?

Albanian sample matches Lebanese samples in timeframe 3000 ybp so 1000 BCE and not 2400 as you are saying here. Please stop lying and acting as monkey.

Look again, i'm giving you this link like 10 times already : https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/




No
Because its a west asian migrant into the balkan. It was not a native balkan clade already existing there.

Again... you have to ask why is it that the albanian and lebanese clades split at 1000bc. Whats the history to support that albanians invaded phonecia at 1000BC? Lol. None, but there was lots of phonecian piracy and coastal raids. And they dis occupy sardinia where -z585 lineages are.
Did albanians occupy sardinia? No.


It only means that these 2 lineages split at 1000 bc. But we find them more often in lebanese samples, we know phonecians inhabited spain and sardinia.
Albania hasnt. But we know spain also invaded sardinia,




Lebanese samples dont have TMRCA 3000 years to put them into 1000 BCE but only 1950 years which is around 70 AD. They have TMRCA 3000 years with Albanian sample because they are of Illyrian origin.

TMRCA 70 AD fits right into Roman rule of Lebanon, and guess what Romans ruled Spain too....

Illyrian soldiers were known recruits into Roman army, it perfectly explains how Illyrian haplogroup is found in Lebanon and Spain with TMRCA 1950 ybp.

Dema
27-05-19, 04:21
tomorrow i will draw it for you since obviously you dont understand with words

Wanderer
27-05-19, 04:46
No, Z2507 didnt split from Albanian and Lebanese samples but Z2507 is bigger and older brother clade TMRCA and distribution wise. J2-Z2507 where most of Albanians fall is formed 4400 ybp TMRCA 4400 ybp. J2-Y146400 where Lebanese fall is formed 4400 ybp TMRCA 1950 ybp, together with Albanian from Vlora 3000 ybp, so still lower.





What are haplogroups JYp299 and i2i2, are you disabled or what? IJ split one from another 30 000 years ago, while your clade split from Albanians 3000 years ago, yes you are indeed. Why would you otherwise mention this.
You just want to trǿll and type nonsense dont you? Why dont you go bother someone else instead since everyone told you that you are nuts and you still push with various stupidity.





Albanian sample matches Lebanese samples in timeframe 3000 ybp so 1000 BCE and not 2400 as you are saying here. Please stop lying and acting as monkey.

Look again, i'm giving you this link like 10 times already : https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/






Lebanese samples dont have TMRCA 3000 years to put them into 1000 BCE but only 1950 years which is around 70 AD. They have TMRCA 3000 years with Albanian sample because they are of Illyrian origin.

TMRCA 70 AD fits right into Roman rule of Lebanon, and guess what Romans ruled Spain too....

Illyrian soldiers were known recruits into Roman army, it perfectly explains how Illyrian haplogroup is found in Lebanon and Spain with TMRCA 1950 ybp.

J2-Z2507 formed 2400bc. So? So they are illryian brother clades because they formed before illryians exists? This is my point. They are mnt brother clades. The distribution is very clear. Especially when so many germans and nordics have them

J2-Z2507
All over europe.

-J2-Z2507 mainly in sardinia, ancient samples in the caucus, 1 turkish, a handfull lebanese. 1 albanian that split from lebanese at 1000 BC.


How many of them in Main europe. That 1 albanian sample that split from lebanese? At year 1000 bc?

Even though J2-Z2507 split at 2400 bc

Lol there was no jL283 in albania at 2400 bc.

You were a georgian not an albanian at 3400bc I am not an illyrian subclade rofl

Albanian would be closer to being a proto uratian than an illyrian than at 3400bc.... come on dude.

Proto illlyrians start at earliest 1600 bc. The invasion happens 1200bc

Me and J2-Z2507 would would be brother clades in georgia before J-L283 even stepping foot in europe 5400 years ago.
Incase you cant tell that was sarcasm. We arent brother clades really.


Albanian sample formed 2700bc before
illyrians even existed at a basal j-597 level
It tmrca with basal j-z597 is 3000ybp. 1000bc.


The sardinians and turk sample are probably closer to me.


No and you are reading it wrong
J2-Z2507 tmrca is 4400ybp. To basal j-z597

So obviously that means. J-y14600 was not with J2-Z2507 after 2400bc. Before even proto illyrians existed.

J-y14600 tmrca to basal j-z597 is 3000 ybp...

Trojet
27-05-19, 05:40
@Wanderer, quite honestly, I'm not even sure where to begin to clean up your walls of nonsense, but I will single out a few...


J2-Z2507 formed 2400bc. So? So they are illryian brother clades because they formed before illryians exists? This is my point. They are mnt brother clades. The distribution is very clear. Especially when so many germans and nordics have them

How hard is it for you to understand that J-Z597 is the ancestor of J-Y146400 and J-Z2507. So yes, the latter two are brother clades. Both of them are found among Albanians and other Europeans with TMRCAs 4000+ years, while in Lebanon you have a single cluster with a founder who lived only ~1900 ybp. Hypothetically, if J-Y146400 originated in Lebanon, why is it that we don't find its brother, J-Z2507, there. On the other hand, we find both of these brother clades in the western Balkans. Also, bear in mind that we have an ancient J-Z2507+ sample in the western Balkans since at least 3600 ybp, or only ~800 years after his ancestor J-Z597 lived. So the logical thing is that one J-Y146400+ male migrated to Lebanon sometime between 3000 ybp and 1900 ybp, and not the other way around. But apparently you don't even use any logic. Also, in the future you will see more European J-Y146400 samples...

As Dema pointed out, there no "Illyrian emotions" involved here, just the stuff you're writing is utter nonsense. For Phoenicians, you have other Y haplogroups who are by far better candidates, even found in Levantine aDNA, such as J-M205 and J-P58. Sorry, you can dream about Phoenician ancestors, but I don't think you will find it in J-L283. Play with some autosomal calculators, perhaps you will find a trace there that will satisfy you.



-J2-Z2507 mainly in sardinia, ancient samples in the caucus, 1 turkish, a handfull lebanese. 1 albanian that split from lebanese at 1000 BC.

What's all this nonsense here? Show me these ancient Caucasus samples that were J-Z2507+. That's right, they aren't. They were just J-L283* (Z600- YP29-). The Lebanese cluster isn't even J-Z2507, are you high or what?


The balkan ancient sample is also actually 1200 bc.
And its a deep clade at Jy23094

Wrong again kid. MBA Croatia was radio carbon dated at ~1600 BC and he was J-Y15058 not J-Y23094, as you can see: https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-analysis-of-i4331-j2b2a-l283-bronze-age-croatia-mathieson-et-al-2018/

Before telling me about J-L283 and writing more walls of nonsense, I suggest you go back to school and learn how to write. You write like a confused kid who hasn't even finished 8th grade. "Ky i defton babes se si behen femijet" :laughing:

Wanderer
27-05-19, 07:31
@Wanderer, quite honestly, I'm not even sure where to begin to clean up your walls of nonsense, but I will single out a few...



How hard is it for you to understand that J-Z597 is the ancestor of J-Y146400 and J-Z2507. So yes, the latter two are brother clades. Both of them are found among Albanians and other Europeans with TMRCAs 4000+ years, while in Lebanon you only have a single subgroup with a founder who lived only ~1900 ybp. Hypothetically, if J-Y146400 originated in Lebanon, why is it that we don't find its brother, J-Z2507 , there. On the other hand, we find both of these brother clades in the western Balkans. Also, bear in mind that we have an ancient J-Z2507+ sample in the western Balkans since at least 3600 ybp, or only ~800 years after his ancestor J-Z597 lived. So the logical thing is that one J-Y146400+ male migrated to Lebanon sometime between 3000 ybp and 1900 ybp, and not the other way around. But apparently you don't even use any logic. Also, in the future you will see more European J-Y146400 samples...

Where can




What's all this nonsense here? Show me these ancient Caucasus samples that were J-Z2507+. That's right, they aren't. They were just J-L283* (Z600- YP29-). The Lebanese cluster isn't even J-Z2507, are you high or what?



Wrong again kid. MBA Croatia was radio carbon dated at ~1600 BC and he was J-Y15058 not J-Y23094, as you can see: https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-analysis-of-i4331-j2b2a-l283-bronze-age-croatia-mathieson-et-al-2018/

Before telling me about J-L283 and writing more walls of nonsense, I suggest you go back to school and learn how to write. You write like a confused kid who hasn't even finished 8th grade. "Ky i defton babes se si behen femijet" :laughing:

1 argueing you found
J-Z2507 only 800 years after Jz597 is a weird arguemnt when the TmRca is 4400ybp.



Obviously since JL283 came from georgia. That doesnt necessarily equate to z597 being from lebanon...


a basal offshot thats -J-Z2507 went to lebanon. We have more
-J-Z2507 than albanian.

In fact.. we have more ancient samples of -J-z585 outside of mainland europe it seems. In fact, Only georgian



Arguing that you dont find its brother clade J-Z2507 clade even though you find -585 in turkey.[emoji2369].

And J-Z2507+ not being found in lebanon would actually strengthen the point that they split so long ago at. J-Z2507+ tmrca to z597 is 2400BC. You keep blatantly ignoring this.
If they were bro clades J-Z2507+ would have been found in lebanon also. But they arent according to you[emoji2369]. So why is that?
Is it because just MUHbee, -J-Z2507 took a different direction from J-Z2507 (europe)?
This is what you just argued to me. You argue my point for me without even realizing it.

J-Z2507 went immediately to europe early?
-J-Z2507 did not initially.
Only until 1000bc? you have like 3 + plus mena samples of -j-Z2507. But apeal to the only mainland european one because?[emoji2369].



I go by the fact of what the tmrca gives me and where its found more often and where it is not.

J-Y14600 branched away formed 2400 BC and TMRCA from basal Jz597 at 1000BC


J-Z2507 formed and tmrca is 2400bc...
So at 2400bc J-Z2507 is gone from west asia.

Im looking at the "ancient samples" here.

The Croatian sample is 1600BC you say? Wow does that mean its -J-Z2507?
Oh no wait. Its J-Z2507, is that right?
[emoji2369]



"What's all this nonsense here? Show me these ancient Caucasus samples that were J-Z2507+. That's right, they aren't. They were just J-L283* (Z600- YP29-). The Lebanese cluster isn't even J-Z2507, are you high or what"

Why would I need to show J-Z2507+ at 3128 BC before the mutation exists and when that its not in Georgia. [emoji2357]

Am I the one supposed to argue that it exists at 3000bc and didnt go to europe? Im kind of confused here? Cuz I thought I said it goes to europe.

I said that -J-Z2507 stayed outside europe longer than
J-Z2507+

I can type like a 2nd grader but you have to be more consistent in your thought process.


Yes both decend from 597. But the TMRCA is at different time gaps. Hello!!

J-Z2507 tmrca is at 2400bc

JY14600 Bc at 1000BC. Theres more lebanese that branched off this line than european....
The 1 european sample and the lebanese branch off near 0 ad ...







I


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190527/6e39cc97aadccc5a1f11ba1ae0bdcd46.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190527/0e45d5c1965c3ff3c430c52c715b8e1a.jpg

Dema
27-05-19, 18:33
1 argueing you found
J-Z2507 only 800 years after Jz597 is a weird arguemnt when the TmRca is 4400ybp.



Obviously since JL283 came from georgia. That doesnt necessarily equate to z597 being from lebanon...


a basal offshot thats -J-Z2507 went to lebanon. We have more
-J-Z2507 than albanian.

In fact.. we have more ancient samples of -J-z585 outside of mainland europe it seems. In fact, Only georgian



Arguing that you dont find its brother clade J-Z2507 clade even though you find -585 in turkey.[emoji2369].

And J-Z2507+ not being found in lebanon would actually strengthen the point that they split so long ago at. J-Z2507+ tmrca to z597 is 2400BC. You keep blatantly ignoring this.
If they were bro clades J-Z2507+ would have been found in lebanon also. But they arent according to you[emoji2369]. So why is that?



No basal off-shot or anything went to Lebanon you little trølling ignorant. Lebanese samples have TMRCA 1950 ybp and first match in Albania 3000 ybp, There is gap of 1000 years simply because this 1000 years was lost in bottleneck among Albanians, you should be lucky that you found 3000 years close match, which is extremely close when trying to find one group migration route. This is like first class prove that you are actually of Illyrian/Albanian origin.

This is like one micro branch in Lebanon/Colombia/Spain with TMRCA 1950 years, and first match in Albania, and plenty of brother clades at Albanians and Europeans from Russia to Spain.
Practically none existent in Semitic speaking world and going all the way back to its formed date 9000 years its extremely European haplogroup, with its highest peak at Albanians.

Adding that to ancient DNAs, there is zero chance for Phoenician origin. But rather 99.99 % Illyrian. However, they probably assimilated into Phoenician culture since Roman rule and then become Lebanese..

Now i want to show you other Albanian branches which are all brother clades to this Lebanese branch formed 4400 years ago with TMRCA 1950 years.



Look this is your Lebanon clade, formed 4400 ybp TMRCA 1950 years, together with Albanian sample 3000 years:

https://i.imgur.com/lr64ERv.jpg



Notice SNPs FGC64027, Y146400, FGC64043 being shared among Albanian and Lebanese samples which gives them TMRCA 3000 years (Illyrian time), but only Lebanese samples have TMRCA 1950 years.


Now look this:

This is another branch inside of L283, formed 4400 ybp, so brotherclade to Albanian/Lebanese branch which is also formed 4400 ybp.
But this brother clade has TMRCA 4000 years, with Albanian sample inside TMRCA 3900 years.

This is legit brother clade to Y146490 as they are both formed 4400ybp.

https://i.imgur.com/8MYqoQx.jpg




Look this, another brother clade inside of L283, formed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 3400 ybp.

This is legit brotherclade to J-Y146400 with formed date 4200 ybp, and TMRCA 3400ybp.

Look, Albanians and Europeans again.....

https://i.imgur.com/OAbhN7w.jpg


Look another separated clade inside of L283:

Look, formed 3600 ybp, TMRCA 1450 ybp, again Albanians and Europeans... No Phoenician or Middle Eastern traces....

https://i.imgur.com/UNoxl7y.jpg



Look another brother clade to FGC64029, a bit younger tho, formed 2800 ybp, so its formed about the time when Lebanese FGC64029 SNP was formed, about 3000 years ago, but its Albanian....

formed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybp.

https://i.imgur.com/dGmCbwX.jpg




Also not to mention that both L283 aDNA Armenian and Dalmatian where Steppe admix with Steppe mtDNA, obviously belonging to IE language group, just as Albnians do, while again, Phoenicians where Semitic speakers.

Dema
27-05-19, 19:59
One branch went to Lebanon and one branch to Spain and later probably with colonisation of Latin America to Colombia/Brasil.
They have TMRCA 1950 years and its Roman rule which connect these dots with this Illyrian line.


He still didnt answer which branch he belongs to, and is he this Brazilian sample under J-FGC64029 ?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/

Wanderer
27-05-19, 20:20
No basal off-shot or anything went to Lebanon you little trølling ignorant. Lebanese samples have TMRCA 1950 ybp and first match in Albania 3000 ybp, There is gap of 1000 years simply because this 1000 years was lost in bottleneck among Albanians, you should be lucky that you found 3000 years close match, which is extremely close when trying to find one group migration route. This is like first class prove that you are actually of Illyrian/Albanian origin.

This is like one micro branch in Lebanon/Colombia/Spain with TMRCA 1950 years, and first match in Albania, and plenty of brother clades at Albanians and Europeans from Russia to Spain.
Practically none existent in Semitic speaking world and going all the way back to its formed date 9000 years its extremely European haplogroup, with its highest peak at Albanians.

Adding that to ancient DNAs, there is zero chance for Phoenician origin. But rather 99.99 % Illyrian. However, they probably assimilated into Phoenician culture since Roman rule and then become Lebanese..

Now i want to show you other Albanian branches which are all brother clades to this Lebanese branch formed 4400 years ago with TMRCA 1950 years.



Look this is your Lebanon clade, formed 4400 ybp TMRCA 1950 years, together with Albanian sample 3000 years:

https://i.imgur.com/lr64ERv.jpg



Notice SNPs FGC64027, Y146400, FGC64043 being shared among Albanian and Lebanese samples which gives them TMRCA 3000 years (Illyrian time), but only Lebanese samples have TMRCA 1950 years.


Now look this:

This is another branch inside of L283, formed 4400 ybp, so brotherclade to Albanian/Lebanese branch which is also formed 4400 ybp.
But this brother clade has TMRCA 4000 years, with Albanian sample inside TMRCA 3900 years.

This is legit brother clade to Y146490 as they are both formed 4400ybp.

https://i.imgur.com/8MYqoQx.jpg




Look this, another brother clade inside of L283, formed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 3400 ybp.

This is legit brotherclade to J-Y146400 with formed date 4200 ybp, and TMRCA 3400ybp.

Look, Albanians and Europeans again.....

https://i.imgur.com/OAbhN7w.jpg


Look another separated clade inside of L283:

Look, formed 3600 ybp, TMRCA 1450 ybp, again Albanians and Europeans... No Phoenician or Middle Eastern traces....

https://i.imgur.com/UNoxl7y.jpg



Look another brother clade to FGC64029, a bit younger tho, formed 2800 ybp, so its formed about the time when Lebanese FGC64029 SNP was formed, about 3000 years ago, but its Albanian....

formed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybp.

https://i.imgur.com/dGmCbwX.jpg




Also not to mention that both L283 aDNA Armenian and Dalmatian where Steppe admix with Steppe mtDNA, obviously belonging to IE language group, just as Albnians do, while again, Phoenicians where Semitic speakers.
Its a basal offshoot...

You only show albanian formed around the same time period other J-Z2507 subclades diverged from basal Z597 on TMRCA. 2400BC. Let me spell it out. TIME OF MOST RECENT ANCESTOR :4400YBP. thats 2400BC. Thats to Basal Z597.[emoji2369]


What was the point of showing me albanian tmrca is? If its J-Z2507+ and not
-J-Z2507

But the fact is.... it it was bottlenecked in albania .. you shoukd see more samples from that branch in albania than lebanon!![emoji848][emoji2369]
You keep ignoring that there is more J-Y146400 decended branches from lebanon than the 1 albanian one [emoji2369]
Again!!!

Do you not realize that lebanese https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC64029 samples are also J-Y146400 because they have the same mutation?

What you dont understand is they are both same until 1950 ybp, 50 BC



But some how even they both have tmrca to z590* at 1000BC (-J-Z2507)
While
J-Z2507+ is at 2400BC?
Makes them bro clades?

Do you realize that albanian is decended from J-Z2507+ so it is not J-Y146400?


European real Albanian sample
3600 ybp, TMRCA 1450 ybp

Let me put it simpler


Also the 4400ybp subclade of J-Z2507+
That doesnt make it a brother clade.
They dont have common ancestors. They were more lebanese with J-Y14600 mutations than Albanians.
Means it diverged over 1000 years earlier from the lebanese samples[emoji2369][emoji848][emoji848]



https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190527/9894fa13b37af1b425a17f339201b3c2.jpg

Ernekar
27-05-19, 20:26
One branch went to Lebanon and one branch to Spain and later probably with colonisation of Latin America to Colombia/Brasil.
They have TMRCA 1950 years and its Roman rule which connect these dots with this Illyrian line.


He still didnt answer which branch he belongs to, and is he this Brazilian sample under J-FGC64029 ?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/

I admire your patience. Although I think he is deliberately refusing to understand.

I saw in an earlier post in the thread that he is the Z600* sample on Yfull.

Wanderer
27-05-19, 20:28
I admire your patience. Although I think he is deliberately refusing to understand.

I saw in an earlier post in the thread that he is the Z600* sample on Yfull.Yes I am. So I dont decend from J-Z2507+ tun tun. So my lineage was not part of J-Z2507+ it stemmed from georgia at that level!!! Before J-Z2507+ even existed!! At 3400BC!!! Tun tun tun. Actually disect where my path followed you would need more branches of my lineage.
So far the closest thing to that is a turk and armenians/ georgian In old world With divergence at 34000BC

And the other hispanic is decended from my in the 1400-1600s time frame. So its not early enough divergence time frame make conslusions of origins before 1400-1600 ad. Since we are both new worlders

Dema
27-05-19, 20:34
J-Y146400 is not basal lol, its formed 4400 YBP, and Albanians have brother clade also formed 4400 YBP


They are both under J-Z597 SNP, and both formed 4400 ybp. Lebanese are only small neglectable branch with 1950 years TMRCA, with closest relatives in Albania lol.

look:

https://i.imgur.com/X7Eg7yi.jpg

Wanderer
27-05-19, 20:36
J-Y146400 is not basal lol, its formed 4400 YBP, and Albanians have brother clade also formed 4400 YBP


They are both under J-Z597 SNP, and both formed 4400 ybp. Lebanese are only small neglectable branch with 1950 years TMRCA, with closest relatives in Albania lol.

look:

https://i.imgur.com/X7Eg7yi.jpgIts not when they form thats important. Its the most recent common ancestor !!! [emoji2357]

Dema
27-05-19, 20:43
Its not when they form thats important. Its the most recent common ancestor !!! [emoji2357]


No actually these are two brother clades because they are both downstream of J-Z597 SNP and they are both formed 4400 ybp.
Their TMRCA is not important in this case when identifying brother clades.


But even when looking at TMRCA its obvious that brother clade where most Albanians fall has higher TMRCA, formed 4400 TMRCA 4000, and Albanian-Lebanese brother clade formed 4400 ybp TMRCA 1950 ybp, adding Albnian samples they reach to TMRCA 3000 ybp.

You are wrong about everything you say i only wonder why moderators if there is any that understands these basic things dont show up and make some order.

Dema
27-05-19, 20:53
I admire your patience. Although I think he is deliberately refusing to understand.

I saw in an earlier post in the thread that he is the Z600* sample on Yfull.



He is deliberately trølling and saying pile of meaningless things mentioning some clades or history to appear as he knows what he is saying while in fact its all pile of nonsense.

If anyone tries to actually read and understand his posts he will understand that we are dealing with childish trøll.


He is just piling up text with broken English and none understanding Yfull tree, phylogeny, clades, and actually nothing...

Wanderer
27-05-19, 21:01
No actually these are two brother clades because they are both downstream of J-Z597 SNP and they are both formed 4400 ybp.
Their TMRCA is not important in this case when identifying brother clades.


But even when looking at TMRCA its obvious that brother clade where most Albanians fall has higher TMRCA, formed 4400 TMRCA 4000, and Albanian-Lebanese brother clade formed 4400 ybp TMRCA 1950 ybp, adding Albnian samples they reach to TMRCA 3000 ybp.

You are wrong about everything you say i only wonder why moderators if there is any that understands these basic things dont show up and make some order.

J-Z597 doesn't have a common ancestor with z597 until 2400 BC so it doesnt matter when it formed [emoji2357][emoji2369]

While JY14600 has one at 1000BC...

Ernekar
27-05-19, 21:12
He is deliberately trølling and saying pile of meaningless things mentioning some clades or history to appear as he knows what he is saying while in fact its all pile of nonsense.

If anyone tries to actually read and understand his posts he will understand that we are dealing with childish trøll.


He is just piling up text with broken English and none understanding Yfull tree, phylogeny, clades, and actually nothing...

Exactly.
I even reported him half a day ago. And I brough specific examples of where and when he was lying and trölling.

But it seems the mods don't want to moderate trölling, as long as it is just trölling against Albanians or North Macedonians.

Dema
27-05-19, 21:25
So he is Dominican sample J2-L283>J-Z600*

He is just another isolated branch-off that we usually find in isolated places like Sardinia, Corsica, Malta.

No wonder he is from Dominican republic, another isolated place where these rare branches might have find refuge.

There is no doubt that he is European descent that probably thru Spain and colonisation of South America later emigrated to islands of Caribbean Sea and survived there as isolated branch while closest relatives were lost in bottleneck.


He used to claim J2-L283 spread from Sardinia, i'm wondering why he didnt say its spread from Dominican Republic judging by his own sample :)

Dema
27-05-19, 21:34
J-Z597 doesn't have a common ancestor with z597 until 2400 BC so it doesnt matter when it formed [emoji2357][emoji2369]

While JY14600 has one at 1000BC...



Look now what he is saying J-Z597 doesn't have common ancestor with J-Z597 ......


Also he mentions some SNP JY14600 that does not exists.. Its just pile of trash whatever he says

Wanderer
27-05-19, 22:55
Look. Kuraxes culture -> late kuraxes culture.
See
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190527/0da1c06f0a62b306e0fad0c6bace57f3.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190527/50643b31751f5167b658dc7f2335c31b.jpg


Kura axes culture is from 3400 BC.to 2000BC
It extends as far as to northern lebanon or right by it.

Wanderer
27-05-19, 22:56
Look now what he is saying J-Z597 doesn't have common ancestor with J-Z597 ......


Also he mentions some SNP JY14600 that does not exists.. Its just pile of trash whatever he saysI dont have ancestor with z597, tell me where I said that i do?

Wanderer
27-05-19, 23:01
Look now what he is saying J-Z597 doesn't have common ancestor with J-Z597 ......


Also he mentions some SNP JY14600 that does not exists.. Its just pile of trash whatever he saysIt doesnt have a common ancestor UNTIL 2400 BC. (Late kura axes culture)

That is for J-Z2507
JY14600 is 1000BC ( 1000 years + past kura axes culture)

Jy14600 has common ancestor between 2400BC and 1000BC
While J-Z2507 does not. Only before 2400BC (kura axes culture)

Dema
27-05-19, 23:18
I dont have ancestor with z597, tell me where I said that i do?

You were lying that Y146400 is basal to Z2507 when its clear they are both brother clades formed 4400 years ago from a same ancestor (Z615).
With Z2507 being more widespread and with higher TMRCA.



Look, Y146400 is not Basal to Z2507 but its smaller brother clade with lower TMRCA. Nothing else. It has matches in Albania and tons of brother clades there and its spread with Europeans most likely from Albania since the closest relatives except themselves (1900 years TMRCA) are in Albania (3000 years TMRCA).

I know you are disabled and that you will write some stupidity again.. Btw you are reported.


https://i.imgur.com/jRE6HMD.jpg

Wanderer
27-05-19, 23:24
You were lying that Y146400 is basal to Z2507 when its clear they are both brother clades formed 4400 years ago from a same ancestor (Z615).
With Z2507 being more widespread and with higher TMRCA.



Look, Y146400 is not Basal to Z2507 but its smaller brother clade with lower TMRCA. Nothing else. It has matches in Albania and tons of brother clades there and its spread with Europeans most likely from Albania since the closest relatives except them selves (1900 years TMRCA) are in Albania (3000 years TMRCA).

I know you are disabled and that you will write some stupidity again.. Btw you are reported.


https://i.imgur.com/jRE6HMD.jpg

JY14600 most recent common ancestor to basal z597 is 1000BC. It says so on the TMRCA. Thats what it stands for.

While J-Z2507 is 2400BC. I don't know what to tell if you cannot comprehend this. It has 1000 year or more difference from the time they both split z 597.
2400 BC
Vs
1000BC

And there is more lebanese JY14600 than albanian.
While the lebanese and albanian split in 50 bc.
Ultimatly we can say that we likely derived from kura axes culture.
Its the source of JL283 most likely.

Also at 615 was not in germany at 5400 BC
It was in georgia/ armenia. When you find ancient samples of 615 in germany, that would be interesting. On the other hand kura axes culture does reach toward lebanon and by anatolia.

Dema
27-05-19, 23:44
Even tho i draw it to you, you still don't get it, and the worst of all is that you are saying that i can't comprehend something .....



JY14600 most common ancestor to basal z597 is 1000BC. It says so on the TMRCA. Thats what it stands for.

JY14600 does not exist, you are as usually typing trash, perhaps you thought on J-Y146400.
No J-Y146400 is not connected to other Z597 samples closer then 4400 years as formed date shows you and not "1000BC" as you said, not TMRCA, but even i explain you this in previous post you are still lying and refusing to accept facts and how to read Yfull tree.

Both Albanian Z2507 and Albanian Y146400 are brother clades, both formed 4400 ybp, There is only one smaller branch-off under Albanian Y145400 with SNP FGC64029 that is Lebanese and it has TMRCA only 1900 years. Thats about it.




While J-Z2507 is 2400BC. I don't know what to tell if you cannot comprehend this. It has 1000 year or more difference from the time they both split z 597.
2400 BC
Vs
1000BC

Again Z2507 and Y146400 split from Z615, in the same time 4400 ybp.




And there is more lebanese JY14600 than albanian.
While the lebanese and albanian split in 50 bc.

Lebanese L283 are neglectable, they have low TMRCA and relatives in Albania and Europe.

Lebanese and Albanian didnt split 50 BC but 3000 ybp. Do you see that Lebanese/Spanish cluser is formed 3000 ybp ??? That is when they split.





This is European haplogroup and you are ancestor of Europeans colonising America in 17 century :)

Dema
27-05-19, 23:49
Here you can read how your European haplogroup got to Dominican republic and Caribbean Sea:


The European colonization of the Americas describes the history of the settlement and establishment of control of the continents of the Americas by most of the naval powers of Western Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/America_1794.png/220px-America_1794.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:America_1794.png)

Political map of the America in 1794



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Spanish_conquistador_style_armour_05.jpg/220px-Spanish_conquistador_style_armour_05.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Spanish_conquistador_style_armour_05.jpg)

Spanish conquistador style armour



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Benton_American_Discovery_Viewed_by_Native_America ns.jpg/220px-Benton_American_Discovery_Viewed_by_Native_America ns.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Benton_American_Discovery_Viewed_by_Native_Am ericans.jpg)

American Discovery Viewed by Native Americans (Thomas Hart Benton (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hart_Benton_(painter)), 1922). European "discovery" and colonization would have disastrous effects on the indigenous peoples of the Americas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas) and their societies.


Systematic European colonization began in 1492, when a Spanish expedition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus%27s_first_voyage) headed by the Italian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italians) explorer Christopher Columbus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus) sailed west to find a new trade route to the Far East (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_East) but inadvertently landed in what came to be known to Europeans as the "New World (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World)". He ran aground on the northern part of Hispaniola (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispaniola) on 5 December 1492, which the Taino people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ta%C3%ADno) had inhabited since the 9th century; the site became the first permanent European settlement in the Americas. Western European conquest, large-scale exploration and colonization soon followed. Columbus's first two voyages (1492–93) reached the Bahamas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahamas) and various Caribbean islands (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean_islands), including Hispaniola, Puerto Rico (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rico), and Cuba (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba). In 1497, Italian explorer John Cabot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Cabot), on behalf of England (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_England), landed on the North American coast, and a year later, Columbus's third voyage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyages_of_Christopher_Columbus#Third_voyage) reached the South American coast. As the sponsor of Christopher Columbus's voyages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus%27s_voyages), Spain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Empire) was the first European power to settle and colonize the largest areas, from North America and the Caribbean to the southern tip of South America.
The Spaniards (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain) began building their American empire in the Caribbean (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean), using islands such as Cuba, Puerto Rico, and Hispaniola as bases. The North and South American mainland fell to the conquistadors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquistador), with an estimated 8,000,000 deaths of indigenous populations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas), which has been argued to be the first large-scale act of genocide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples) in the modern era (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history#1490_to_1914).[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_colonization_of_the_Americas#cite_note-1) Florida (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida) fell to Juan Ponce de León (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Ponce_de_Le%C3%B3n) after 1513. From 1519 to 1521, Hernán Cortés (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hern%C3%A1n_Cort%C3%A9s) waged a campaign (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_conquest_of_the_Aztec_Empire) against the Aztec Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_Empire), ruled by Moctezuma II (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moctezuma_II). The Aztec capital, Tenochtitlan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenochtitlan), became Mexico City (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_City), the chief city of what the Spanish were now calling "New Spain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Spain)". More than 240,000 Aztecs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztecs)died during the siege of Tenochtitlan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Tenochtitlan). Of these, 100,000 died in combat.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_colonization_of_the_Americas#cite_note-2) Between 500 and 1,000 of the Spaniards engaged in the conquest died. Later, the areas that are today California (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California), Arizona (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona), New Mexico (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Mexico), Colorado (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado), Texas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas), Missouri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri), Louisiana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana), and Alabama (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alabama) were taken over by other conquistadors, such as Hernando de Soto (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hernando_de_Soto), Francisco Vázquez de Coronado (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_V%C3%A1zquez_de_Coronado), and Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%81lvar_N%C3%BA%C3%B1ez_Cabeza_de_Vaca). Farther to the south, Francisco Pizarro (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Pizarro)conquered (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_conquest_of_the_Inca_Empire) the Inca Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inca_Empire) during the 1530s. The de Soto expedition was the first major encounter of Europeans with North American Indians in the eastern half of the United States. The expedition journeyed from Florida through present-day Georgia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(U.S._state)) and the Carolinas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Carolinas), then west across the Mississippi and into Texas. De Soto fought his biggest battle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mabila) at the walled town of Mabila in present-day Alabama on October 18, 1540. Spanish losses were 22 killed and 148 wounded. The Spaniards claimed that 2,500 Indians died. If true, Mabila was the bloodiest battle ever fought between native Americans and Europeans in the present-day United States.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_colonization_of_the_Americas#cite_note-3) The centuries of continuous conflicts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_Wars) between the North American Indians and the Anglo-Americans were secondary to the devastation wrought on the densely populated Meso-American, Andean, and Caribbean heartlands.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_colonization_of_the_Americas#cite_note-4)
The British (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) colonization of the Americas started with the unsuccessful settlement attempts in Roanoke (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roanoke_Colony) and Newfoundland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newfoundland_Colony). The English eventually went on to control much of Eastern North America (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_America), The Caribbean, and parts of South America. The British also gained Florida and Quebec in the French and Indian War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_and_Indian_War). [5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_colonization_of_the_Americas#cite_note-5)
Other powers such as France (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France) also founded colonies in the Americas: in eastern North America, a number of Caribbean islands and small coastal parts of South America. Portugal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal) colonized Brazil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Brazil), tried colonizing the eastern coasts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Canada) of present-day Canada (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada) and settled for extended periods northwest (on the east bank) of the River Plate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%ADo_de_la_Plata). The Age of Exploration (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Exploration) was the beginning of territorial expansion for several European countries. Europe had been preoccupied with internal wars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_of_the_Late_Middle_Ages) and was slowly recovering from the loss of population caused by the Black Death (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death); thus the rapid rate at which it grew in wealth and power was unforeseeable in the early 15th century.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_colonization_of_the_Americas#cite_note-Taylor_2001-6)
Eventually, most of the Western Hemisphere (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere) came under the control of Western European governments, leading to changes to its landscape, population, and plant and animal life. In the 19th century over 50 million people left Western Europe for the Americas.[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_colonization_of_the_Americas#cite_note-7) The post-1492 era is known as the period of the Columbian Exchange (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_Exchange), a dramatically widespread exchange of animals, plants, culture, human populations (including slaves (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade)), ideas, and communicable disease (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_disease_and_epidemics) between the American and Afro-Eurasian hemispheres following Columbus's voyages to the Americas.
Henry F. Dobyns estimates that immediately before European colonization of the Americas there were between 90 and 112 million people in the Americas; a larger population than Europe at the same time. [8



(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_colonization_of_the_Americas#cite_note-8)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_colonization_of_the_Americas]

Wanderer
27-05-19, 23:57
Even tho i draw it to you, you still don't get it, and the worst of all is that you are saying that i can't comprehend something .....




JY14600 does not exist, you are as usually typing trash, perhaps you thought on J-Y146400.
No J-Y146400 is not connected to other Z597 samples closer then 4400 years as formed date shows you and not "1000BC" as you said, not TMRCA, but even i explain you this in previous post you are still lying and refusing to accept facts and how to read Yfull tree.

Both Albanian Z2507 and Albanian Y146400 are brother clades, both formed 4400 ybp, There is only one smaller branch-off under Albanian Y145400 with SNP FGC64029 that is Lebanese and it has TMRCA only 1900 years. Thats about it.





Again Z2507 and Y146400 split from Z615, in the same time 4400 ybp.





Lebanese L283 are neglectable, they have low TMRCA and relatives in Albania and Europe.

Lebanese and Albanian didnt split 50 BC but 3000 ybp. Do you see that Lebanese/Spanish cluser is formed 3000 ybp ??? That is when they split.





This is European haplogroup and you are ancestor of Europeans colonising America in 17 century :)

Pfff. Lebanese JY14600 is negligle because it has low relatives in albania. Than that means albanians arent very closely related. Just that one sample vs multiple lebanese samples.

Their most recent common ancestor is 1950ybp TMRCA to z597

You can have two people that are J-Z597
And have different TMRCA. They will end up being two different J-Z597 lineages . And have further different mutations. Just like how I am J-z600 or J L283 and they are, yet we dont have common ancestors until 5400 ybp, 3400 BC.


It doesnt matter when its formed.
It only matters when they have a common ancestor.


Conclusion, my Jz627 clade is late kuraxes anatolian / lebanese clade.
JY14600 Is Lebanese
Yours Jz2507 and others is european.

Wanderer
28-05-19, 00:05
Blabbing about spaniards in the carribean wouldnt matter. My z627 clade came from lebanese during phonecian era into southern spain. Made a pit stop at sardinia with J -yp29 left clades from kura axes culture that had existed since 3000bc.

Dema
28-05-19, 00:12
Pfff. Lebanese JY14600 is negligle because it has low relatives in albania. Than that means albanians arent very closely related. Just that one sample vs multiple lebanese samples.

Their most recent common ancestor is 1950ybp TMRCA to z597

You can have two people that are J-Z597
And have different TMRCA. They will end up being two different J-Z597 lineages . And have further different mutations. Just like how I am J-z600 or J L283 and they are, yet we dont have common ancestors until 5400 ybp, 3400 BC.


It doesnt matter when its formed.
It only matters when they have a common ancestor.


Conclusion, my Jz627 clade is late kuraxes anatolian / lebanese clade.
JY14600 Is Lebanese
Yours Jz2507 and others is european.



Its neglectable because its very rare in Lebanon and in Semitic speaking countries, only exists in one or two branches like this in Lebanon with TMRCA 2000 years and with all other relatives in Europe, among all Europe countries, with closest matches in Albania.

lol

Also its ancient DNA found in Armenia and Dalmatia with Steppe mtDNA and admixture. Also both Albanian and Armenian belong to IE languages.

Dema
28-05-19, 00:16
Blabbing about spaniards in the carribean wouldnt matter. My z627 clade came from lebanese during phonecian era into southern spain. Made a pit stop at sardinia with J -yp29 left clades from kura axes culture that had existed since 3000bc.

hahahahahhahhahahahahahaahhahaahahahha


You are part of Spanish colonization lol, at least that is obvious.

Wanderer
28-05-19, 00:22
Its neglectable because its very rare in Lebanon and in Semitic speaking countries, only exists in one or two branches like this in Lebanon with TMRCA 2000 years and with all other relatives in Europe, among all Europe countries, with closest matches in Albania.

lol

Also its ancient DNA found in Armenia and Dalmatia with Steppe mtDNA and admixture. Also both Albanian and Armenian belong to IE languages.

Mtdna and autosomal dna does not matter at all. KNOW YYY?

i am 627, I do not have a west eurasian mtdna, so does that mean my Ydna came from east asia? Obviously Not. Men do not pass down mtdna, only women do

And I dont have steppe autosomal ancestry. So what is the point of that argument? We know it was in the steppe because of ancient ydna samples, not because it had steppe autosomal dna,. We know because ydna where kura axes culture inhabited.

Autosomal dna can be lost in a few generations or greatly diminished. It wouldnt matter.


Language can change and be lost for another. This has happened many times in history. Dont understand the language arguements for something that is dna in a very strict father to son hereditary fashion

I can move to china, have half chinese kids, his kids will remain in china there after. Wouldnt make his y dna origin before china chinese.

Wanderer
28-05-19, 00:32
hahahahahhahhahahahahahaahhahaahahahha


You are part of Spanish colonization lol, at least that is obvious.It is, but colonization happened at 1492- 1800 AD

Not 2000BC - 146 BC.

Dema
28-05-19, 00:38
Mtdna and autosomal dna does not matter at all. KNOW YYY?



hahahahahahahahhaha why are you making me laugh ????
We are talking about ancient samples here, ofc that everything matters.

Do you know that you got European haplogroup that spread to Caribbean Sea with Spanish and British colonisations?

Do you know that it happened in 16 and 17 century ?

Ernekar
28-05-19, 00:49
There were also Italian immigrants to Dominican republic 1880's, they could have brought this Z600* there

Wanderer
28-05-19, 00:57
hahahahahahahahhaha why are you making me laugh ????
We are talking about ancient samples here, ofc that everything matters.

Do you know that you got European haplogroup that spread to Caribbean Sea with Spanish and British colonisations?

Do you know that it happened in 16 and 17 century ?

Wheres the ancient samples of -J-Z2507 in albania than? Where are they? Georgia. Not albania.

There is none. Kura axes culture was steppe anyways. And it reached reached to anatolia and northern lebanon.

But comparing a modern albanian to an ancient sample not the same thing either, because like I said, autosomal dna changes, and mtdna is only passed via by females.

So it doesnt matter really at all when we talk about JY14600.

The spanish iberian peninsula was colonized by north africans and caliphates and their soldiers from lebanon middle east area and north africans.

But carthage phonecia also settled southern spain way before that.

Wanderer
28-05-19, 00:59
There were also Italian immigrants to Dominican republic 1880's, they could have brought this Z600* thereI know my paternal line earlier than that bro. I know all my ancestors on my dominican side at that time. Every dominican line to 1880s.
None were italian. And the only one that matters for Ydna is my direct paternal line.
I know my paternal line way before 1880.

Dema
28-05-19, 01:24
I know my paternal line earlier than that bro. I know all my ancestors on my dominican side at that time. Every dominican line to 1880s.
None were italian. And the only one that matters for Ydna is my direct paternal line.
I know my paternal line way before 1880.


Even tho there is chance they were Italians, highest chances go to Spain due to their colonisation.

I doubt that pre European Caribbean population had any L283....



It probably arrived somewhere thru Balkans/Italy and then towards Spain and Caribbean Sea in 16 and 17 century..

Wanderer
28-05-19, 01:26
Even tho there is chance they were Italians, highest chances go to Spain due to their colonisation.

I doubt that pre European Caribbean population had any L283....



It probably arrived somewhere thru Balkans/Italy and then towards Spain and Caribbean Sea in 16 and 17 century..

If its spain its carthagenian/ phonecians. Thats for sure.

Italian is a low chance. The only way it could be italian is if it were actually sardinian. Which could make sense since spain colonized sardinia at a point. And sardinia was colonized by phonecians before that. Phonecians used mercenaries. Could have been a mercenary from a surviving kura axes anatolian / lebanese.

Dema
28-05-19, 01:36
If its spain its carthagenian/ phonecians. Thats for sure.

Italian is a low chance. The only way it could be italian is if it were actually sardinian. Which could make sense since spain colonized sardinia at a point. And sardinia was colonized by phonecians before that. Phonecians used mercenaries. Could have been a mercenary from a surviving kura axes anatolian / lebanese.



If 16 century Spanish colonies were Phoenicians then yes, its Phoenician :D

Whatever makes you more happy.

BTW Phoenicians didnt sail across the Atlantic Ocean to Caribbean Sea, on the other hands Spaniards did. In Spain , Italy and Balkans there is Plenty L283 in various clades just as in Europe, others are minor off-shots, just as your Caribbean L283 branch is.

Wanderer
28-05-19, 01:42
If 16 century Spanish colonies were Phoenicians then yes, its Phoenician :D

Whatever makes you more happy.

BTW Phoenicians didnt sail across the Atlantic Ocean to Caribbean Sea, on the other hands Spaniards did. In Spain , Italy and Balkans there is Plenty L283 just as in Europe, others are minor off-shots, just as your Caribbean L283 branch


Spaniards were already a mixes bag of celts goths french romans and southern spain had few phonecians and berbers. My ydna clade is highly atypical so my line doesn't come from spaniards of other lines. Including other spanish J-L283 we know of. My most distant ancestor with them is 5400ybp just like any JL283. Including georgians and armenians

The closest things to my clade are only shown to exist in georgia using ancient samples. And if we talk modern, turkey and sardinia. Just because mainland european branches have so many different added markers I wouldn't have.

While we have other clades from lebanon diverged much more recent from basal z597.

Dema
28-05-19, 02:19
Spaniards were already a mixes bag of celts goths french romans and southern spain had few phonecians and berbers. My ydna clade is highly atypical so my line doesn't come from spaniards of other lines. Including other spanish J-L283 we know of. My most distant ancestor with them is 5400ybp just like any JL283. Including georgians and armenians

The closest things to my clade are only shown to exist in georgia using ancient samples. And if we talk modern, turkey and sardinia. Just because mainland european branches have so many different added markers I wouldn't have.

While we have other clades from lebanon diverged much more recent from basal z597.


What are your STR markers, how do you know you dont have matches in Europe, there will come match sooner or later.

You dont have matches because you are isolated off-shot and probably bottlenecked elsewhere. But origin of L283 is very clear..

It could have come to Caribbean sea most early in 16 century with Spaniards, probably with Balkan or Italian origin.

Trojet
28-05-19, 04:16
Spaniards were already a mixes bag of celts goths french romans and southern spain had few phonecians and berbers. My ydna clade is highly atypical so my line doesn't come from spaniards of other lines. Including other spanish J-L283 we know of. My most distant ancestor with them is 5400ybp just like any JL283. Including georgians and armenians
The closest things to my clade are only shown to exist in georgia using ancient samples. And if we talk modern, turkey and sardinia. Just because mainland european branches have so many different added markers I wouldn't have.
While we have other clades from lebanon diverged much more recent from basal z597.

Your closest STR match is someone with a Spanish sounding surname. Forget about fantasizing of Phoenicians, Carthagenians, etc. There is practically zero L283 in those regions. The only L283 cluster in Lebanon has Balkan/European origin, as has been demonstrated to you here countless of times. You are either not bright enough to get it, or you refuse to accept it. There can be 5000 Lebanese who are J-FGC64029, the fact of the matter is they all share a very recent ancestor who lived ~1900 ybp, the Phoenicians had basically disappeared by then. And these guys are not even in your clade.

And WTH is this talk about "Georgians"? The two ancient samples were not even from modern day Georgia. The MBA sample was from southernmost Russia, the other was from LBA Armenia. Regardless, neither of them are in the J-Z600 branch, where you are, as both of them are negative for Z627 as you can see here: https://j2-m172.info/links/scientific-papers/#ancient

So your closest matches remain all those who are under J-Z600. All four parallel J-Z600 lines are European. One of them is formed by your sample. The Istanbul sample is technically a border region between Balkans and Anatolia (nevermind he has a Greek surname). The third parallel line, J-YP157, should have a TMRCA going well into the bronze age as the Sardinians samples share only 4 SNPs amongst themselves. Finally, the fourth parallel line, J-Z585, has a TMRCA of ~5400 ybp with all European basal samples as well. So your ancestors were most likely in Europe before the Phoenicians were even mentioned. So I agree with Dema here, you should be looking at some Roman legions from Balkans or Italy as your ancestors who colonized Iberria. (Mainland Italy, like the Balkans, is highly under tested).

Dema
28-05-19, 04:32
Your closest STR match is someone with a Spanish sounding surname. Forget about fantasizing of Phoenicians, Carthagenians, etc. There is practically zero L283 in those regions. The only L283 cluster in Lebanon has Balkan/European origin, as has been demonstrated to you here countless of times. You either are too dumb to get it, or you refuse to accept it. There can be 5000 Lebanese who are J-FGC64029, the fact of the matter is they all share a very recent ancestor who lived ~1900 ybp, the Phoenicians had basically disappeared by then. And these guys are not even on your clade.

And WTH is this talk about "Georgians"? The two ancient samples were not even from modern day Georgia. The MBA sample was from southernmost Russia, the other was from LBA Armenia. Regardless, neither of them are in the J-Z600 branch, where you are, as both of them are negative for Z627 as you can see here: https://j2-m172.info/links/scientific-papers/#ancient

So your closest matches remain all those who are under J-Z600, and not some "Georgians". All three parallel J-Z600 lines are European. The Istanbul sample is technically a border region between Balkans and Anatolia. The third parallel clade, J-Z585, has a TMRCA of 5400 ybp with all European samples as well. So your ancestors were most likely in Europe before the Phoenicians were mentioned. So I agree with Dema here, you should be looking at some Roman legions from Balkans or Italy as your ancestors who colonized Iberria. (Mainland Italy, like the Balkans, is highly under tested)

I agree, its probably connected with Roman legions in Spain, with Balkan origin and later in 16 century colonised Caribbean Sea where his isolated branch managed to survive.

According to one research about 60 % of Dominican Republic DNA is European, 30 % is Sub-Saharan and 10 % is Native American. There is no wonder that he got classic European haplogroup.




The overall genetic makeup of the Dominican Republic's population is estimated to be approximately 60% European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Europe), 30% Black African (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_African), and 10% Native American (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taino) on average according to recent genealogical DNA testing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Dominican_Republic#Genetics_and_ethn icities


He never mentioned Spanish sounding match :)

Wanderer
28-05-19, 06:10
Your closest STR match is someone with a Spanish sounding surname. Forget about fantasizing of Phoenicians, Carthagenians, etc. There is practically zero L283 in those regions. The only L283 cluster in Lebanon has Balkan/European origin, as has been demonstrated to you here countless of times. You are either not bright enough to get it, or you refuse to accept it. There can be 5000 Lebanese who are J-FGC64029, the fact of the matter is they all share a very recent ancestor who lived ~1900 ybp, the Phoenicians had basically disappeared by then. And these guys are not even in your clade.

And WTH is this talk about "Georgians"? The two ancient samples were not even from modern day Georgia. The MBA sample was from southernmost Russia, the other was from LBA Armenia. Regardless, neither of them are in the J-Z600 branch, where you are, as both of them are negative for Z627 as you can see here: https://j2-m172.info/links/scientific-papers/#ancient

So your closest matches remain all those who are under J-Z600. All four parallel J-Z600 lines are European. One of them is formed by your sample. The Istanbul sample is technically a border region between Balkans and Anatolia (nevermind he has a Greek surname). The third parallel line, J-YP157, should have a TMRCA going well into the bronze age as the Sardinians samples share only 4 SNPs amongst themselves. Finally, the fourth parallel line, J-Z585, has a TMRCA of ~5400 ybp with all European basal samples as well. So your ancestors were most likely in Europe before the Phoenicians were even mentioned. So I agree with Dema here, you should be looking at some Roman legions from Balkans or Italy as your ancestors who colonized Iberria. (Mainland Italy, like the Balkans, is highly under tested).My closest STR is someone from spain from 5400 ybp. Sure .... when I am Jz627 minus every other single mutation after jz600. And z586

The Lebanese J-L283 likely has less snp differences than the spaniard one.
What is his subclade? And kit number? Because I Have 0 Str matches except
for the other new world hispanic.

The closest STR matches I have after that are only at a Y 12 level and they only test 12 str markers. Even at 24 generations I dont get 100 percent match. How can I be a match at j z627 within a thousand years with some thats for example

Z585 J-Z585 >J-Z615 >J-Z2507 > J-Z597 > J-Z638 >J-Z1296>J-Z1297>J-Z8421 > J-Z1295> J-Z8421> J-Z631 >J-Z1043> J-Y26712>J-Z8424> J-Z8429> J-Z39653J > CTS11760 >J-Y81358

You know what the why str match maker gives me at y 12?
91 percent match even at 24 generations average thats 600 years ago. We dont have a common ancestor for 600 years. Com on dude. Its 5400 years ybp back in georgia times.
The sardinians were dropped off there at sardinia after 5400 which is why they have

J-Y15058 at 2400bc. It was kura axes culture that was absorbed by phonecians near the end of its collapse at 2000BC. If not it was carians or leleges

Theres no basal jz600 mainland samples. Its all sardinian and a turk.
Except georgians and armenians.

Honestly theres a better chance its straight from georgian or armenian from recently within 1000 years ago than mainland european clade

Dema
28-05-19, 20:05
,,,


J2-L283 in most part extended to Sardinia probably thru Italy and Balkans in Illyrian/Italic-Roman time, and your clade colonised Caribbean Sea with Spanish colonies in 16 and 17 century.

There is almost no chance there was J2-L283 in Caribbean Sea prior to Spanish colonies...

Nik
28-05-19, 22:12
Just want to remind or inform everyone that the fast majority of Levanites/Arabs in South America have adopted Spanish lastnames. From my experience the majority are Lebanese/Syrians/Egyptians.

So that L283 is most likely one of them and not a Spaniard.

Mind you that many of what we call Latina beauties are actually Lebanese girls with Euro and local admix.

Dema
28-05-19, 22:23
Just want to remind or inform everyone that the fast majority of Levanites/Arabs in South America have adopted Spanish lastnames. From my experience the majority are Lebanese/Syrians/Egyptians.

So that L283 is most likely one of them and not a Spaniard.

Mind you that many of what we call Latina beauties are actually Lebanese girls with Euro and local admix.


Even if this is true i don't see what J2-L283 has to do with Levantines or Arabs as its spread with Indo-Europeans, particularly in Bronze Age.
It has TMRCA 5400 ybp and its dispersed among all European countries, even if you find it in Levant, it is for sure European expansion, often neglectable in MENA countries in sense of diversity or distribution percentage.

L283 has best and probably only chance to reach Caribbean Sea with Spanish European colonists of probably Balkan Italian or Spanish origin.


It peaks at Albanians and it has high diversity there. At least 4 or 5 branches with TMRCA 4400 ybp.


So you are obviously wrong.

Nik
28-05-19, 22:48
Even if this is true i don't see what J2-L283 has to do with Levantines or Arabs as its spread with Indo-Europeans, particularly in Bronze Age.
It has TMRCA 5400 ybp and its dispersed among all European countries, even if you find it in Levant, it is for sure European expansion, often neglectable in MENA countries in sense of diversity or distribution percentage.

L283 has best and probably only chance to reach Caribbean Sea with Spanish European colonists of probably Balkan Italian or Spanish origin.


It peaks at Albanians and it has high diversity there. At least 4 or 5 branches with TMRCA 4400 ybp.


So you are obviously wrong.
So you obviously didn't understand anything I said.

The history of L283 was completely unnecessary. Nobody asked you. I'm aware of L283 being an Early IE and your M205 being a newcomer with nostalgia of your ancestral lands.

But...again, before someone else gets confused by your comment, there's MANY of those Latinos who are actually of Lebanese origin but with Spanish lastnames. Period!

If Wanderer is more related to them than to Spaniards or Albanians, then his ancestors were some of those Arabs.

Dema
28-05-19, 23:24
So you obviously didn't understand anything I said.

I understood that you are completely wrong, and as usually talking nonsense.


The history of L283 was completely unnecessary.

It was necessary because you obviously didn't understand and everything you said was wrong.



Nobody asked you.

You should ask and learn, rather then be arrogant and prepotent as usual, while your knowledge genetic and history wise is on low level.


I'm aware of L283 being an Early IE and your M205 being a newcomer with nostalgia of your ancestral lands.

M205 is for sure not "newcomer". But rather ancient Mediterranean one. I dont see where are you going with this newcomer thing?



But...again, before someone else gets confused by your comment, there's MANY of those Latinos who are actually of Lebanese origin but with Spanish lastnames. Period!

This is totally irrelevant for anything we talked about here. You just jumped in with this stupid comment like it has anything with what was debated about here or with L283 in fact.




If Wanderer is more related to them than to Spaniards or Albanians, then his ancestors were some of those Arabs.

No he does not and he is not more related to them, where did you get this from? You are lying again. He has no matches at Middle Easterners. If you read better you would not spit these stupidities as usual.




I know that you were claiming ultimate stupidities before only to counter me or say against whatever i say, so its stupid to pretend like you know anything about J2, L283, M205 or this what are we debating here.

You dont know even about E-v13..

Im not letting your personal issues and problems infect this thread, so from now on you are ignored.

Ygorcs
28-05-19, 23:29
Just want to remind or inform everyone that the fast majority of Levanites/Arabs in South America have adopted Spanish lastnames. From my experience the majority are Lebanese/Syrians/Egyptians.

So that L283 is most likely one of them and not a Spaniard.

Mind you that many of what we call Latina beauties are actually Lebanese girls with Euro and local admix.

Not true. I'm from Brazil, the country with the largest number of descendants of Lebanese and Syrian immigrants in the Americas. There are countless Arab surnames in Brazil sometimes adapted to Portuguese phonology: Sarquis, Otoch, Kerbage, Jereissati, Haddad, Abdala, Sadi, Kamel, Mansur, Temer, Alckmin, Maluf, Jatene, Hoauiss, Chacra, Damous, Amin, Kassab, Damous, tc. What happens is simply that the Lebanese/Syrian descendants did not remain in closed, endogamous communities, and instead mixed extensively with the local population who had mostly Iberian surnames, so many of the descendants of Arabs also have Iberian surnames (or even only non-Arab surnames given the succession of generations,and that not all surnames are passed on to the next one) because they are in fact not just descendants of Arabs.

Ownstyler
28-05-19, 23:37
If Wanderer is more related to them than to Spaniards or Albanians, then his ancestors were some of those Arabs.

So far, he isn’t.

Wanderer
29-05-19, 00:11
Not true. I'm from Brazil, the country with the largest number of descendants of Lebanese and Syrian immigrants in the Americas. There are countless Arab surnames in Brazil sometimes adapted to Portuguese phonology: Sarquis, Otoch, Kerbage, Jereissati, Haddad, Abdala, Sadi, Kamel, Mansur, Temer, Alckmin, Maluf, Jatene, Hoauiss, Chacra, Damous, Amin, Kassab, Damous, tc. What happens is simply that the Lebanese/Syrian descendants did not remain in closed, endogamous communities, and instead mixed extensively with the local population who had mostly Iberian surnames, so many of the descendants of Arabs also have Iberian surnames (or even only non-Arab surnames given the succession of generations,and that not all surnames are passed on to the next one) because they are in fact not just descendants of Arabs.

Maybe in brazil. They did this with french surnames sometimes. To make them sound more spanish. But with people like lebanese names I would imagine they are more likey to change the surname. They might change the name to blend in a bit better.

Especially if its early in spanish history because of the spanish reconquista ect, they probably didnt like muslims ect.
But sometimes they may not take their fathers surnames and take their mothers instead.

I have an ancestor that dropped his fathers name and kept his mothers name. His mothers name was also passed down to his children instead.

Nik
29-05-19, 00:22
Not true. I'm from Brazil, the country with the largest number of descendants of Lebanese and Syrian immigrants in the Americas. There are countless Arab surnames in Brazil sometimes adapted to Portuguese phonology: Sarquis, Otoch, Kerbage, Jereissati, Haddad, Abdala, Sadi, Kamel, Mansur, Temer, Alckmin, Maluf, Jatene, Hoauiss, Chacra, Damous, Amin, Kassab, Damous, tc. What happens is simply that the Lebanese/Syrian descendants did not remain in closed, endogamous communities, and instead mixed extensively with the local population who had mostly Iberian surnames, so many of the descendants of Arabs also have Iberian surnames (or even only non-Arab surnames given the succession of generations,and that not all surnames are passed on to the next one) because they are in fact not just descendants of Arabs.
Do some research then. There's plenty of Latinos with Arab origins (obviously mixed) who have Spanish lastnames.

Duarte
29-05-19, 01:35
In Brazil the descendants of Syrian-Lebanese Arabs, mixed or not, with Iberians, have names and surnames phonetically adapted to Portuguese. In Brazil there is the largest Syrian-Lebanese diaspora in the Americas. The mayor of my hometown, Belo Horizonte, is a Syrian-Lebanese descendant named Elias Kalil.

Ygorcs
29-05-19, 09:05
Do some research then. There's plenty of Latinos with Arab origins (obviously mixed) who have Spanish lastnames.

Distant "Arab" (Levantine/North African) ancestry mainly brought in small amounts by Iberians does not count. Actual ethnic Arab migration to Latin America happened mostly after the 1880s and especially in the 1910s and 1920s. It's a "recent" genetic inflow in most of Latin America, the surnames are still there (do you know Menem, former president of Argentina? Menem is a Lebanese surname. Carlos Slim, the Mexican billionaire? Lebanese surname).

Also, it is just self-evident that many mixed people of Arab origins may have Spanish last names for the obvious reason that they are mixed and, therefore, they also owe much of their family history to non-Arab people, isn't it? Or would you think they would retain only their Arab surname ? It is certain that some families of Arab origin changed their surname, but it wasn't the usual practice in most places.

By the way, it seems some of you ignore the history of Arab immigration to Latin America: in fact the vast majority of them up to the 1960s were Arab Christians, not Muslims. They are among the most successful diasporas in Latin America and blended in extremely well, and that's why most of them are now mixed, so obviously many of them have non-Arab surnames (with or without their original Arab surnames, since usually only men's surnames were passed on).

Ygorcs
30-05-19, 02:29
In Brazil the descendants of Syrian-Lebanese Arabs, mixed or not, with Iberians, have names and surnames phonetically adapted to Portuguese. In Brazil there is the largest Syrian-Lebanese diaspora in the Americas. The mayor of my hometown, Belo Horizonte, is a Syrian-Lebanese descendant named Elias Kalil.

Exactly, Duarte. Maybe some Latin American nation had a different history with its Syrian/Lebanese diaspora, but at least in Brazil, Mexico and Argentina things were really different, and Syrian/Lebanese surnames are not only preserved, but sometimes even proudly showed off, since the population of (today mostly very mixed) Arab descent is among the wealthiest and most politically influential in many places. The famous names that aren't just are so numerous that I can't even remember them all. Just now I was reminded of Salma Hayek (Mexico) and Shakira Mebarak (Colombia).

Dema
30-05-19, 20:06
I would advice to ignore user Nik as obviously kid is trøll and sadly represents minority of Albanian members with very vulgar behavior.

Dema
30-05-19, 20:36
Formed 9600 ybp, TMRCA 5400 ybp.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/ (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/)



https://i.imgur.com/oFe4Pjg.jpg






Just to compare with J2-M205, since one group was spread with IE languages and another one with Semitic and they are both J2b-M102+, but separation time 16 000 ybp.

Formed 15800 ybp, TMRCA 5700 ybp.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/


https://i.imgur.com/HxGBk2H.jpg

Nik
30-05-19, 22:19
Do some research then. There's plenty of Latinos with Arab origins (obviously mixed) who have Spanish lastnames.
I take back the vast majority part since there's no way to prove it (although you might be right about most of them) but I stick to "plenty of Arabs with Spanish lastnames".

Carlos Roberto Flores Facussé
José Antonio Meade Kuribreña
Gaspar Henaine Pérez
Jaime Sabines Gutiérrez
Mário Jorge Lobo Zagallo
Antonio Saca
Paulina Vega
Carlos Slim Helú
Eduardo Falú
Basilio Lami Dozo
Carlos Balá
Elias Bazzi
Jorge Antonio
Alfredo Avelín
Juliana Paes
João Bosco
Rafael Leitão
Fernando Gabeira
Miguel Littin
Nicolás Massú
Jeff Becerra

How can one possibly know that these people here are of Arab descent?

Trojet simply said there was someone with a Spanish sounding lastname, so he could be anything.

To have a better idea of Wanderer's ancestor we need:
1- The full name (all 4 or 5 of them) of his closest match
2- His second and third matches

Trojet or any of us could be easily fooled by Javier Gutierrez but if we get a Javier Khalil Gutierrez Hayek then we'd know for sure.


Formed 9600 ybp, TMRCA 5400 ybp.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/ (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/)

Just to compare with J2-M205, since one group was spread with IE languages and another one with Semitic and they are both J2b-M102+, but separation time 16 000 ybp.

Formed 15800 ybp, TMRCA 5700 ybp.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/


Sure, we'll compare. Ok now, dismissed!

Dema
30-05-19, 23:06
I take back the vast majority part since there's no way to prove it

At least you are starting to realise the nonsense you said, that is what we call progress : )






Trojet simply said there was someone with a Spanish sounding lastname, so he could be anything.


Yes he could technically be some arabicised European but that is something else, and then as such spread to Carrebean Sea. But this is hypothesis is without any proofs or bases. Then why Levantine? You could in the same way say he could of been Chinese or Sub-Saharan African prior to expanding to Carrebean Sea, well yea, technically he could be anything, , but his more further European origin is undoubtful with its peaks in Balkan among Albanians.
But also well represented in Italy, Spain, Portugal.





To have a better idea of Wanderer's ancestor we need:
1- The full name (all 4 or 5 of them) of his closest match
2- His second and third matches


Whatever his matches are today, there is no doubt they were Europeans before, probably Balkan-Italy-Spain relation.






Sure, we'll compare. Ok now, dismissed!


Listen kid, start be respectful or i will pull your unrespectful ears so much that you will cry.


And yes, compare and learn, ancient DNA map is probably best proof of some haplogroup origin. Especially when TMRCA is about similar time with its ancient DNA finds, like its case in both J2-M205 and J2-L283.

Nik
01-06-19, 00:13
Listen kid, start be respectful or i will pull your unrespectful ears so much that you will cry.

Yes, please. I'm only interested in this part. I invited you before to exchange info and phone numbers and meet.

Perhaps it seems too peaceful and childish here but I'll do my best to insult you in the worst possible way and get you really fired up to meet me and pull my ears.

You can't see from a forum profile what's inside my mind and what we want to do to Osmanlis

Dema
01-06-19, 00:31
Yes, please. I'm only interested in this part. I invited you before to exchange info and phone numbers and meet.

Perhaps it seems too peaceful and childish here but I'll do my best to insult you in the worst possible way and get you really fired up to meet me and pull my ears.

You can't see from a forum profile what's inside my mind and what we want to do to Osmanlis



This is typical Ashkali behaviour, its pretty clear where you come from.

The only one who should be insulted by your vulgar behavior is your parents, because as obviously they made you and failed in any further education or manner teaching their child.
Worst of all is they even have to pay your internet bill :D

Don't bother me with low iq ideas anymore, i dont have time for North Albanian underaged Gabel that is trying to be tough on internet.


BTW do whatever you want to Osmanlis lol, 80 % of Albanians are Muslims, and almost every second Ottoman prime minister was Albanian starting with Bayezid Pasha in 1413 :D

You are 500 years Ottoman yourself, with identity crisis :D And confusion that you can thank to extreme communist regime.

Wanderer
01-06-19, 00:38
At least you are starting to realise the nonsense you said, that is what we call progress : )








Yes he could technically be some arabicised European but that is something else, and then as such spread to Carrebean Sea. But this is hypothesis is without any proofs or bases. Then why Levantine? You could in the same way say he could of been Chinese or Sub-Saharan African prior to expanding to Carrebean Sea, well yea, technically he could be anything, , but his more further European origin is undoubtful with its peaks in Balkan among Albanians.
But also well represented in Italy, Spain, Portugal.






Whatever his matches are today, there is no doubt they were Europeans before, probably Balkan-Italy-Spain relation.








Listen kid, start be respectful or i will pull your unrespectful ears so much that you will cry.


And yes, compare and learn, ancient DNA map is probably best proof of some haplogroup origin. Especially when TMRCA is about similar time with its ancient DNA finds, like its case in both J2-M205 and J2-L283.

It wouldn't be ssa or chinese because JL283 is caucus origin from Georgia armenia region. We already know this. But we have levantine origin of a spefic basal J-L283 branch and kura axes culture is a culture that inhibited the areas of J L283.

Dema
11-06-19, 01:40
It wouldn't be ssa or chinese because JL283 is caucus origin from Georgia armenia region. We already know this. But we have levantine origin of a spefic basal J-L283 branch and kura axes culture is a culture that inhibited the areas of J L283.

This was only technically and theoretically speaking, you were already explained things by Trojet. You should listen to him, you two have same haplogroup and he is J2-M172 project admin.

Saying thanks would not hurt you. You cant always contradict people with whatever comes to your mind. Especially because your knowledge is on beginner stage.

ArdianTH
13-06-19, 02:16
Yes, please. I'm only interested in this part. I invited you before to exchange info and phone numbers and meet.

Perhaps it seems too peaceful and childish here but I'll do my best to insult you in the worst possible way and get you really fired up to meet me and pull my ears.

You can't see from a forum profile what's inside my mind and what we want to do to OsmanlisThere was this story about you losing it after some member of the Balkanforum found out your phone number and called you. Why would you now offer people to exchange numbers?

Aspurg
07-07-19, 17:00
With new results overview of some "basal" Balkan J-Z631's:

J-Z631>Y155546 Vlore, Albania
J-Z631>Y144394 Vlore, Albania
J-Z631>Z1043>BY38004 Vojvodina (Serb ?)
J-Z631>Z1043>FGC55768 Greek, Phocis
J-Y98609* Bosniak, Sandzak
J-Z1043* (Z8424-) Croat
J-Z631*/Z1043* Greek/Thaci-Korbi Albania/Basarabi Romania

So plenty of basal Z631 in Western Balkans.

Nik
08-07-19, 00:25
There was this story about you losing it after some member of the Balkanforum found out your phone number and called you. Why would you now offer people to exchange numbers?
I'm not a member on any other forum besides this. I used to visit anthrogenica from time to time for info but that's it. You got me confused.

And I had never heard of Balkanforum before.

Parapolitikos
11-07-19, 07:46
Or perhaps you can't read. This is what I wrote on the J2 page:

As a result, both the Illyrians and the Mycenaeans (and possibly the Albanians) would be descended from Middle to Late Bronze Age Steppe migrants to the Southeast Europe, in a migration that was particularly rich in J2b lineages from the Middle Volga region.

The Albanian (and Kosovar) population is one of the most homogeneous in Europe in term of shared recent ancestry according to Ralph & Coop 2013 (http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555). This means that the Albanians expanded from a very small population relatively recently, which explains why strong founder effects completely reshaped the Y-DNA frequencies. That is how E-V13 and J2b became to dominant among Albanians and Kosovars. That expansion probably took place during the Middle Ages, so based on the current data it is impossible to know whether E-V13 and J2b entered the Albanian gene pool during the Bronze Age, the Iron Age, the Classical Antiquity, or even the Middle Ages. Hence my reserve on the subject.

that's true.present day Albania and Kosovo couldn't have had more than 100 000 people circa 1500s after the ottoman conquest and the blood path that followed.
100 000 being very very generous as the ottoman censuses in the Albanian pashaliks(carried out regionally from the Turkalbanians who were the ruling class)300 years later report close to 200 000 population

LABERIA
11-07-19, 09:21
that's true.present day Albania and Kosovo couldn't have had more than 100 000 people circa 1500s after the ottoman conquest and the blood path that followed.
100 000 being very very generous as the ottoman censuses in the Albanian pashaliks(carried out regionally from the Turkalbanians who were the ruling class)300 years later report close to 200 000 population
I think you are wrong and also you are an uneducated person. Probably 100.000-150.000 Albanians lived at that time(circa 1500s) only in Peloponnese, let alone other regions of Greece and of course Albania.
And stop using these derogatory names products of your filthy chauvinistic idologie. The most easy thing is to mock and laugh the greeks and to ridicule your attempts to invent history, but it is supposed that we are here to discuss, right?

Joker
11-07-19, 13:48
This haplogroup is mostly found among Albanians, and seems to be most diverse there.
J2b2-L283 was also found in Bronze Age croatia (and it's funny Macaiamo doesn't mention Albanians on the J2b2 page on Eupedia, there seems to be a strong bias on his part for some strange reason).

Wondering if any non-albanians have this haplogroup and if so, where you're from.

J2b2a1-L283 origins by diversity and subgroups with focus on Jewish lineageshttps://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-l283-origins-by-diversity-and-subgroups-focus-jewish-lineages/

novakovich
01-08-19, 23:33
Does anybody noticed that map of frequency J2b2-L283 perfectly corresponds to migration of Bulgars? Regions where J2b2-L283 is most abundant correspond to ancient regions of Volga Bulgaria and Kutmichevitsa. In 670 Bulgar khan Kuber led migration of more than 100.000 people to Balkan. Kutmichevitsa later become one of most important centers of Bulgarian Empire.Since J2b2-L283 is very low in other Balkan nations compared with Albanians. I assume that high majority of J2b2-L283 originated from Bulgars. However after Bulgars migration to Balkan, there were migrations of other Pontic–Caspian steppe people to Balkans. Remains of Pechenegs were settled by force in Balkan. And after Pechenegs next migrants were Cumans. Most probably all three groups together Bulgars, Pechenegs and Cumans were significant contributors of spreading J2b2-L283 on Balkan.

Johane Derite
01-08-19, 23:39
Does anybody noticed that map of frequency J2b2-L283 perfectly corresponds to migration of Bulgars? Regions where J2b2-L283 is most abundant correspond to ancient regions of Volga Bulgaria and Kutmichevitsa. In 670 Bulgar khan Kuber led migration of more than 100.000 people to Balkan. Kutmichevitsa later become one of most important centers of Bulgarian Empire.Since J2b2-L283 is very low in other Balkan nations compared with Albanians. I assume that high majority of J2b2-L283 originated from Bulgars. However after Bulgars migration to Balkan, there were migrations of other Pontic–Caspian steppe people to Balkans. Remains of Pechenegs were settled by force in Balkan. And after Pechenegs next migrants were Cumans. Most probably all three groups together Bulgars, Pechenegs and Cumans were significant contributors of spreading J2b2-L283 on Balkan.

Thats absolutely wrong and J2b2-L283 distribution is literally the opposite of bulgar presence in Albania. j2b2-l283 is most concentrated in north-west Albanians, highland clans. Its least present in south-east Albanians around Ohrid, which is where the Bulgarian presence and influence was highest, and the centre of Kutmichevitsa. Its around Ohrid here that we find the highest I2a-Slav in Albanians of any other Albanian region.

Trojet
02-08-19, 00:18
Thats absolutely wrong and J2b2-L283 distribution is literally the opposite of bulgar presence in Albania. j2b2-l283 is most concentrated in north-west Albanians, highland clans. Its least present in south-east Albanians around Ohrid, which is where the Bulgarian presence and influence was highest, and the centre of Kutmichevitsa. Its around Ohrid here that we find the highest I2a-Slav in Albanians of any other Albanian region.

And also, let's remind this Serb that J2b2-L283 was found in the West Balkans (https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-analysis-of-i4331-j2b2a-l283-bronze-age-croatia-mathieson-et-al-2018/), radiocarbon dated at ~3600 ybp. Yet, he is suggesting it came only in the last 1400 years with the Bulgars and such. Not only is he embarrassing himself in an international forum, he is also showing his true colors...

novakovich
02-08-19, 19:13
I din't say that J2b2-L283 came with Bulgars only and exclusively to Balkan. There were many different waves of migrations from Pontic–Caspian steppe to and through Balkan, including Indo-European migrations during the time. There must be good reason why J2b2-L283 in Albanians is much more abundant than in their Balkan neighbors. My assumption is that most probably this could be contribution of arrivals of Bulgars, Pechenegs and Cumans. Since there were later several Bulgars rebellion around Kutmichevitsa against Byzantines it is obvious that those people lived there in significant number. What is Albanian view about those people? Even if they assimilated they must left genetic traces.

Fatherland
02-08-19, 19:45
I din't say that J2b2-L283 came with Bulgars only and exclusively to Balkan. There were many different waves of migrations from Pontic–Caspian steppe to and through Balkan, including Indo-European migrations during the time. There must be good reason why J2b2-L283 in Albanians is much more abundant than in their Balkan neighbors. My assumption is that most probably this could be contribution of arrivals of Bulgars, Pechenegs and Cumans. Since there were later several Bulgars rebellion around Kutmichevitsa against Byzantines it is obvious that those people lived there in significant number. What is Albanian view about those people? Even if they assimilated they must left genetic traces.
Albanians have the lowest Turkic/Mongoloid admixture of the entire Balkans, no sign of these admixtures in autosomal or yDNA. Only the nations around us absorbed some of it.

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/East-Asian-admixture.gif

LABERIA
02-08-19, 22:06
....or brought it

novakovich
03-08-19, 15:41
There is nothing wrong with submitted map. It is logical and it is easy to estimate that as you go further from Mongolian grassland Turkic genetic contribution will decline. From this map is obvious that Turkic genetic contribution is low in Pontic–Caspian steppe. Only exception is this part south of Volga where Kalmyks settled. Pontic–Caspian steppe was home of Scythians for millenniums. We know they they were mostly R1b. J2b2 entered Pontic–Caspian steppe from Asia long time ago. After that J2b2 spread together with R1b in many different migration waves. After Hunic invasion Scythians were exposed to turkification. So they were exposed to cultural assimilation (language replacement). Those non assimilated stayed as Alans. Mongol invasion wiped out both Cumans and Alans from Pontic–Caspian steppe ending genetic domination of R1b there. According to historical sources Cumans were even described as blond and Caucasian looking. There are no reason why we should not consider that absolute majority of middle age Turkic speaking migrants from Pontic–Caspian steppe to Balkan were actually assimilated Scythians and mainly carriers of R1b+J2b2.

Yetos
03-08-19, 17:16
Albanians have the lowest Turkic/Mongoloid admixture of the entire Balkans, no sign of these admixtures in autosomal or yDNA. Only the nations around us absorbed some of it.

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/East-Asian-admixture.gif


??????? :thinking: :thinking: :thinking:

ha? since when?

Do you believe that you post?

What about Altaic component? ??? ???? :grin:

Can you tell us which European countries have most?

Johane Derite
03-08-19, 22:43
There is nothing wrong with submitted map. It is logical and it is easy to estimate that as you go further from Mongolian grassland Turkic genetic contribution will decline. From this map is obvious that Turkic genetic contribution is low in Pontic–Caspian steppe. Only exception is this part south of Volga where Kalmyks settled. Pontic–Caspian steppe was home of Scythians for millenniums. We know they they were mostly R1b. J2b2 entered Pontic–Caspian steppe from Asia long time ago. After that J2b2 spread together with R1b in many different migration waves. After Hunic invasion Scythians were exposed to turkification. So they were exposed to cultural assimilation (language replacement). Those non assimilated stayed as Alans. Mongol invasion wiped out both Cumans and Alans from Pontic–Caspian steppe ending genetic domination of R1b there. According to historical sources Cumans were even described as blond and Caucasian looking. There are no reason why we should not consider that absolute majority of middle age Turkic speaking migrants from Pontic–Caspian steppe to Balkan were actually assimilated Scythians and mainly carriers of R1b+J2b2.

We already saw with huns and avar paper that their typical groups are Q, N, and even a lot of I2a. The only J2 that was found was J2a, which is found more in Greeks. Obvious troIling is obvious.

Wonomyro
03-08-19, 22:55
We already saw with huns and avar paper that their typical groups are Q, N, and even a lot of I2a. The only J2 that was found was J2a, which is found more in Greeks. Obvious troIling is obvious. About I2a: not Huns nor Avars but Hungarians mixed with Slavs.

Johane Derite
03-08-19, 22:59
Not Huns nor Avars but Hungarians mixed with Slavs (I2a, R1a).

"Y-chromosome haplogroups from Hun, Avar and conquering Hungarian period nomadic people of theCarpathian Basin"

"Most individuals buried with rich grave goods show Mongoloid characters indicating innerAsian origin of the Avar elite, which is also supported by their artifact types, titles (e.g. khagan) and institutionsrecognized to be derived from Inner Asian Rourans"

"The Avar age remains are anthropologically extremelyheterogeneous, with considerable proportion of Mongoloid and Europo-Monoloid elements reaching 20-30%"

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/04/03/597997.full.pdf

novakovich
03-08-19, 23:07
Well, you have forgotten group C. Anyway, if you have time please check genetics of Gagauz. Those are real descendants of Bulgars.

mihaitzateo
03-08-19, 23:44
Albanians of Illyrian ancestry should be mostly R1B clades, not J2.
Albanians have highest R1B percentage from Eastern Europe.
Original Ilyrian language has clearly change, under the influence of Dacians, Thracians, Goths and Slavs and the original Illyrian language should have been from Romance-Celtic group of languages, not a Satem language,as Albanian is currently.
The R1B from Eupedia, given for Albanians, is not the correct one.
The actual percentage of R1B in Albania is 23%.
Also, Illyrians should have had E-V13.
This E-V13 and R1B should have been shared between Ilyrians and SE Celtic tribes.
J2 should be from Dacians,Thracians,Greeks.

LABERIA
03-08-19, 23:46
Albanians of Illyrian ancestry should be mostly R1B clades, not J2.
Albanians have highest R1B percentage from Eastern Europe.
Albanian language has clearly change, under the influence of Dacians, Thracians, Goths and Slavs and the original Illyrian language should have been from Romance-Celtic group of languages, not a Satem language,as Albanian is currently.
The R1B from Eupedia, given for Albanians, is not the correct one.
The actual percentage of R1B in Albania is 23%.
Also, Illyrians should have had E-V13.
This E-V13 and R1B should have been shared between Ilyrians and SE Celtic tribes.
J2 should be from Dacians,Thracians,Greeks.

Can you give some examples of Dacian influence on Albanian language? Thanks in advance.

Aspurg
04-08-19, 00:43
There must be good reason why J2b2-L283 in Albanians is much more abundant than in their Balkan neighbors.

That reason is because Albanians are in good part descended of Illyrians. Descendants of local antiquity groups logically should differ from those who are certainly not linguistically Illyrian and that is the case..




My assumption is that most probably this could be contribution of arrivals of Bulgars, Pechenegs and Cumans.

The bulk of modern eastern J-L283 are under J-Y12007 and thus far there is no evidence to suggest any of these participated in some back-migration to the Balkans.



Pontic–Caspian steppe was home of Scythians for millenniums.

No it wasn't.. proto-Scythians in the most narrow sense (dominantly clades of R-Z93) were descended from Central Asia/Altai, and they established dominance in the Pontic Steppe in 7th/6th century which lasted for about 3 centuries, and last of their remnants lasted for two more centuries in Crimea primarily.



We know they they were mostly R1b.

No they were not. Bunch of "R1b calls" in the study of Scythians from Moldova were completely wrong. R-Z93 was dominant as always. Some R1b's were R-Z2103 (with Balkan autosomal profile) etc.





After Hunic invasion Scythians were exposed to turkification.


There were no "Scythians" at the time of Hunnic invasions for five centuries.. There were Sarmato-Alans, and great many of those were "hunnified" indeed.





Mongol invasion wiped out both Cumans and Alans from Pontic–Caspian steppe ending genetic domination of R1b there.

There was no "R1b domination" on the from Pontic–Caspian steppe since Srubnaya and other R1a heavy groups pushed the Yamnaya remnants. Some of these R-Z2103 remnants subsequently survived in the Steppe as Sarmatians etc.





According to historical sources Cumans were even described as blond and Caucasian looking.


There was a variation among them from the finds. More Eastern groups had more Asian ancestry, Western ones less.. The proto-Cuman R-M73 most likely cannot be tied to "blonde" reports, but certain R-Z93 who joined them might..




There are no reason why we should not consider that absolute majority of middle age Turkic speaking migrants from Pontic–Caspian steppe to Balkan were actually assimilated Scythians and mainly carriers of R1b+J2b2.

According to some hard genetic evidence, original Cumans indeed had lots of R1b, but this was central Asian R-M73 which has nothing to do with Scythians or even IE's.




Anyway, if you have time please check genetics of Gagauz. Those are real descendants of Bulgars.

I have and they might show few "Seljuk" genetic links (some G-M201 haplotypes), as for Bolgars, not so likely. There was a small Caucasian (G-L293) link that might fit into that or some other group, and some other potential links.
They had interestingly one R-M269 with dys393=12 and dys392=11, most likely he is one of those R-Z2705 392=11 that I haven't noticed before.
Only 7 STR's in that study so very hard to work with it.

Dibran
04-08-19, 01:19
Nearly got a brain aneurysm reading novakovich posts.

Trojet
04-08-19, 01:25
Nearly got a brain aneurysm reading novakovich posts.

I see he has accumulated 23 out of 23 negative votes in just three posts. That must be a record :lmao:

Fatherland
04-08-19, 03:55
Albanians of Illyrian ancestry should be mostly R1B clades, not J2.
Albanians have highest R1B percentage from Eastern Europe.
Original Ilyrian language has clearly change, under the influence of Dacians, Thracians, Goths and Slavs and the original Illyrian language should have been from Romance-Celtic group of languages, not a Satem language,as Albanian is currently.
The R1B from Eupedia, given for Albanians, is not the correct one.
The actual percentage of R1B in Albania is 23%.
Also, Illyrians should have had E-V13.
This E-V13 and R1B should have been shared between Ilyrians and SE Celtic tribes.
J2 should be from Dacians,Thracians,Greeks.
J2b2 is from Illyrians.
J2a1 is from Greeks or others.

There is like 26000 years split between these two clades(J2a1 & J2b2). Way before any of these populations existed, haha.

Wonomyro
04-08-19, 14:03
"Y-chromosome haplogroups from Hun, Avar and conquering Hungarian period nomadic people of theCarpathian Basin" "Most individuals buried with rich grave goods show Mongoloid characters indicating innerAsian origin of the Avar elite, which is also supported by their artifact types, titles (e.g. khagan) and institutionsrecognized to be derived from Inner Asian Rourans" "The Avar age remains are anthropologically extremelyheterogeneous, with considerable proportion of Mongoloid and Europo-Monoloid elements reaching 20-30%" https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/04/03/597997.full.pdf Ok, but there are no I2a samples documented for Avars and Huns.

Dibran
04-08-19, 15:22
I see he has accumulated 23 out of 23 negative votes in just three posts. That must be a record :lmao:

For real hahaha

mihaitzateo
04-08-19, 20:05
Just for curiosity, what is the real percentage of R1B in Albanians from Kosovo, in Gheghs Albanians and in Tosk Albanians?

mihaitzateo
04-08-19, 20:06
J2b2 is from Illyrians.
J2a1 is from Greeks or others.

There is like 26000 years split between these two clades(J2a1 & J2b2). Way before any of these populations existed, haha.

How J2b2 and J2a1 could be so ancient, from 26k years ago?
Neither Greeks, neither Illyrians existed 26k years ago.

Ownstyler
04-08-19, 21:24
Just for curiosity, what is the real percentage of R1B in Albanians from Kosovo, in Gheghs Albanians and in Tosk Albanians?


Check out: http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/.

mihaitzateo
04-08-19, 23:16
Check out: http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/.
Indeed that J2b-L283 is typical to Albanians, from Europe populations.
I seen Kosovars got 23% R1B-M269 and that other Albanians got 26.5% (Maqedoni (Gjithsej 34)).
Also, Kosovars got 8.3% I1 so they clearly mixed with some Germanic people that came from Scandinavia.
I am not sure that Illyrians are more than 2000 BC ancient, in Balkans.
They should have come with the Celtic tribes (the Illyrians).
Fatherland actually scores some similarity to Scottish people :) .
Who came first in Balkans, Thracians or Illyrians, that, I have no idea.
Acording to Maciamo, R1B came latest in Europe, while I came first :) .
R1A came before R1B in Europe, but not so early, maybe 2000 years before R1B.
There are also ex-Yugos and Romanians that are scoring some similarity with Welsh/South English people, but not too much (Romanians, up to 17% from what I seen. Ex Yugos, might score more).

So, J2b2-L283 might have been in Balkans before Illyrians and E-V13, might also have been in Balkans,before Illyrians came there.
Illyrians might have been actually mostly R1B-M269 and conquered the E-V13 and J2b2-L283 Balkanites.

mihaitzateo
04-08-19, 23:36
Also, the proto-Celtic-Latin-Illyrian language might have not formed in Europe, but in Asia.
Later, it should have split in proto-Celtic-Illyrian and proto-Latin.
Later, proto-Celtic-Illyrian split in Illyrian and proto-Celtic. Proto-Celtic should be at least 5000 years ancient.
So, maybe proto-Celtic-Illyrians came in Balkans like 3000 BC and here, we have a split, having SE Europe Celts appearing and Illyrians.
Later, a part of SE Europe Celts migrated NW and gave Hallstat Celts.
This migration was through the land of Slovenia.
It seems a part of Hallstatt Celts migrated through North Germany and Netherlands to Britain and Ireland and gave those Insular Celts.
While a part of Balkan Celts migrated to France and Iberia and gave those Celts.
As a fun thing, I2-din and I2a1b "Disles" that is found at 6-8% percent in Ireland are supporting the theory that Celts came in Europe as proto-Illyrian-Celts, through Balkans :) .
Sure, Brits and French would not accept that the Celtic migration came in Europe via Balkans, but this is how it seems it actually happened.
Oh, forgot to add, Irish and Scottish autosomal DNA are same, so Fatherland scoring similarity to Scotts/Irish autosomal DNA is extra proof that Celts came in Europe through Balkans :) .
I am just saying.

Krum
06-08-19, 10:52
Гагаузите принадлежат към Y-DNA гаплогрупи I2 (23,6%), R1a (19,1%), G (13,5%), R1b (12,4%), E1b1b1a (11,1%), J2 (5,6%) и N (2,2%). Филогенетичният анализ на Y-DNA показва най-тясната връзка между гагаузите и Bulgarians, Macedonians, Serbs and other Balkan peoples.

Bulgarian DNA Project - Male Straight Line (Y-Chromosome Analysis) shows approximately the following picture:

1) The highest percentage of Bulgarians are from haplogroup I- from 20 to 26%, of which approximately 18% are from subgroup I2a2 Dinaric, 5% are from subgroup I1, 1.5% are from I2b1, 0.5% I2b2 and 0.5% are from subgroup I2c;


2) haplogroup E ranks second - from 19 to 21.5%, of which approximately 20% are from subgroup E1b1b1a2 (M78-V13, alpha cluster) and 1.5% are from E1b1b1c * (M123 *);


3) haplogroup J is the third most prevalent group among Bulgarians - from 11 to 15%, with subgroups J1 (M267) - 3%, J2 (M172) - 11% of which 5% are from subgroup J2b * (M102 *), called as early as the old nomenclature J2e1, 4.3% are from J2a * (M410 *) and the rest are from J2a1b * (M67 *) and J2a1b1 (M92);
4) haplogroup R with subgroups R1a1- from 12 to 17.5% and R1b1a2- about 12-13%;
5) haplogroup G2 mainly with subgroup G2a3b- about 4-5%;
6) haplogroup Q with 0.5%;
7) haplogroup L with 0.5%;
8) haplogroup H about 1%.
It is also possible to have other less common groups in small quantities that are unknown to us at this time.

Krum
06-08-19, 11:49
The ancient Bulgarians were very likely to have been carriers of J2b and in particular J2b2-L283, given their location and origin - West Asia (Caucasus) and subsequently spread through Anatolia to the Balkans. The earliest European source mentioning Proto-Bulgarians is the so-called. An "Anonymous Roman Chronograph" - a list listing tribes and peoples, written in Latin in 354 by an unknown chronicler The Bulgarians, according to him, inhabited the lands around the Caspian, Azov and Black Seas, reaching south to the Caucasus foothills. Movses Khorenatsi, a 5th-century Armenian historian, reports that during the reign of Armenian King Vagarshak, Bulgarians crossed the Caucasus and settled in northeastern Turkey. An early account of the presence of the Proto-Bulgarians in Thrace in the 5th century gives a later text to John Antioch. According to him, the Ostrogoths invaded the Empire, and in 479 Emperor Zeno first allied himself with the Proto-Bulgarians who were here to help against the Goths. Another European source referring to Proto-Bulgarians (Βούλγαροι, Bulgari) is the chronicle of Enodius of Padua (died 521). He, like Cassiodorus, spoke of the victory of the Ostrogothic King Theodoric the Great in Srem against the Proto-Bulgarians, who fought in alliance with the Byzantine Empire around 485. For the next hundred years, the Byzantine authors (Procopius Caesarea, Agathi, Menander) did not use the name Bulgarians. Instead, in the place of the future Greater Bulgaria, there appear coutrigues and puzzles, probably two branches of the Proto-Bulgarians. Mentions of the Proto-Bulgarians reappeared at the end of the 6th century, when Greater Bulgaria was formed. In the Byzantine texts, the names Proto-Bulgarians, Couturiers and Utigurs are used interchangeably with Huns. According to them, the Bulgarians are identical or at least part of the Huns. The treasure from Vrap was discovered in 1901 by a peasant working in the field near the village of Vrap near Drac, Albania. Most scholars admit that this type of decoration was made in the 7th century. The biggest controversy about this treasure is which people have created these exquisite trimmings. The researchers go through various hypotheses, proclaiming the treasure for Avar, Bulgar, Byzantium, and even a forgery. The German archaeologist Joachim Werner argued that the find of Vrap is part of the treasury of the Avar Khaganate, possessed by Bulgaria's Kuber who ruled over the region at that time. The mere objects, according to him, are of nomadic origin and were produced by masters working for the ruler. *Kuber was Bulgar leader who ruled over Srem as a vassal to the Avar Khaganate. All of what we know comes from the "Miracles of St Demetrius" (The book is a hagiographic work, written in Thessaloniki in the 680s or 690s.). He ruled a mixed Christian population of Bulgars, Romans and Slavs that had been transferred to the Srem region in Pannonia by the Avars 60 years earlier. Kuber's Bulgars revolted and tried to make a coup and take the central power through an uprising. After the failed rebellion against the Avaric power, Kuber and his people headed south to the land of Byzantium, carrying six consecutive defeats to the pursuing avars. Kuber then made a peace treaty with the Byzantine Empire and settled in the Keramissian field (Prilep region), located in today's Republic of Macedonia. The Byzantines called these people "Sermisianoi" (after their former settlement - Sirmium), as well as the "Keramisians" (after their new place: the Keramissian plain). In Macedonia, they had contacts and possibly mixed with the "Dragovites" - a Slavic tribe in the region. In 680, he attempted to capture Thessaloniki and capture the Byzantine lands around him. This is evidenced by the seal of Mavrus - a lead seal dedicated to the "archon and patrician of Keramissians and Bulgarians". After an unsuccessful attempt to establish a state with a center in Thessaloniki, around 687, some of them moved to the lands along the Struma valley, to the east of Struma, as well as in the Rhodope mountains. Kuber was the son of Kubrat. Certainly, being a prominent prince would explain why the Avars gave hime rule, and his appearance in 670 chronologically fits the downfall of Old Great Bulgaria. He also suggests that Kuber's people represented a "second Balkan Bulgarian state’" in Macedonia, parallel to that of his brother's Asparukh realm in the north-eastern Balkans (modern northern Bulgaria). Whether he had established a state of sorts or not, nothing is mentioned of Kuber after the 680s, but Asparukh's son, Tervel, in the beginning of the 8th century, is said to have cooperated with "his uncles" from Thessaloniki, ("The lower Ohrid lands" ("Dolnaja zemja Ohridska") His people probably mixed with the Slavs living in the area, well before Presian expanded the First Bulgarian Empire into Macedonia in the early 800s. (It is suggested that Kuber’s Bulgars were allied with the First Bulgarian Empire, and were then incorporated in it.)

The prominent archaeologist from Republic of Macedonia Ivan Mikulchik revealed the presence not only of the Kuber group, but an entire Bulgar archaeological culture throughout Macedonia and eastern Albania. He describes the traces of Bulgars in this region, which consist of typical fortresses, burials, various products of metallurgy and pottery with supposed Bulgar origin or ownership, lead seals, minted from Kuber, amulets, etc. However, part of this could actually represent traces of Avar presence too. Known to have raided as far south as Macedonia, material culture of the Avars was very similar to that of the Bulgars. With the Ottoman invasions of the Balkans began large-scale emigration waves from Bulgaria towards the Western Balkans, Wallachia, Moldova, Banat, Hungary, and after the 17th century in Russia.

Johane Derite
06-08-19, 12:37
J2b2-l283 is on illyrian coast since antiquity (mathieson). It is found in elevated levels in Apulia and Po Valley in Italy, places where there were illyrian settlements. Nothing bulgarian about it.

mihaitzateo
06-08-19, 21:50
J2B2-L283 is too ancient to be brought by Illyrians.
Should be from the times of Neolithic in Europe.
So, J2B2-L283 should be from 8000 BC in Balkans.
During the Neolithic, no Illyrians existed.
Not in Europe, not in Asia.
Neither proto-Celto-Ilyro-Romans existed 10k years ago. Not in Europe, not in Asia.
That R1B-M269 that you see in Albania is what the Illyrians should have mostly brought in Balkans, but not all of it.
A part of that R1B-M269 was brought by Celtic tribes in Balkans.
Or, if Celts formed in Balkans, protoCelto-Ilyrians migrated to Balkans and brought that R1B-M269.
There are 2 hypothesis about Illyrian languages:
One is that the Illyrian languages were Centum and the other, that Illyrian languages were Satem.
If we take the Centum variant, is hard for Illyrians to have brought in their migration from Asia to Balkans J2b2-L283.
However, is known that Romans did not only carried R1B-U152, but some G and some J2A.
So, there is a possibility that J2B2-L283 and R1B-M269 were brought by Illyrians in Balkans.
As for the hypothesis that Illyrians spoke Satem,I think that is not so plausible.
Albanian is most Centum shifted language from all Satem languages and I think it took this Satem character because Thracians conquered Illyrians and later, Slavs influenced Illyrians.

mihaitzateo
07-08-19, 23:56
J2b2-l283 is on illyrian coast since antiquity (mathieson). It is found in elevated levels in Apulia and Po Valley in Italy, places where there were illyrian settlements. Nothing bulgarian about it.
Bulgarians assimilated at least some Illyrian people.
Think that is the origin of J2b2-L283 in Bulgarians.

Aspurg
08-08-19, 01:46
Bulgarians assimilated at least some Illyrian people.
Think that is the origin of J2b2-L283 in Bulgarians.

Yes it seems good part of Bulgarian J-L283's might descend of Illyrian eastward movements.
In particular the example of this might be J-PH1602.
Already one Bulgarian J-Y40288 clusters with a Serb from Central Serbia. Their TMRCA is low so might be some recent movement.

But in the study of 808 Bulgarian haplotypes there are 19 available J-M241's, of those 5 are missing dys456. Now why would that be? Only they are missing dys456. I think it's something similar to multiple R-YP4278 looking haplotypes missing their key value of very low dys458=13, one J-F4306 also is missing dys458, 13 is very common there. Also a problem with missing repeated values at dys385.. So I bet all those L283's missing dys456 are with dys456=12. Which is a defining STR for PH1602. As PH1602 is downstream from J-Y15058 which was found in proto-Delmatae burial in Dalmatia it is clear their distant origin is in the West. There is another Bulgarian at FTDNA with dys456=12 and he matches a Vlach from Greece. So overall counting these as dys458=12, on a sample of 25 Bulgarian J-L283, 7 of those have dys456=12/are likely PH1602. That's more than 1/4 being descended from the Western Balkans in Early Iron Age. In addition counting those where dys385a is available we might say 7/35 are likely Z631 (dys385a=10/13). So it seems almost half of Bulgarian J-L283's are PH1602/Z631, in a significant contrast to Albanian J-L283 structure where Z631/PH1602 make up 9 %.. Both of these are younger, PH1602 has certainly origin in Western Balkans, Z631 too. I think both of these likely had a connection to Glasinac-Mati Illyrian culture whose carriers at one point had a migration to the East.

In Albanians interestingly PH1602 doesn't exist yet, not sure if there are any dys456=12 in studies.

Polska
08-08-19, 05:51
Yes it seems good part of Bulgarian J-L283's might descend of Illyrian eastward movements.
In particular the example of this might be J-PH1602.
Already one Bulgarian J-Y40288 clusters with a Serb from Central Serbia. Their TMRCA is low so might be some recent movement.

But in the study of 808 Bulgarian haplotypes there are 19 available J-M241's, of those 5 are missing dys456. Now why would that be? Only they are missing dys456. I think it's something similar to multiple R-YP4278 looking haplotypes missing their key value of very low dys458=13, one J-F4306 also is missing dys458, 13 is very common there. Also a problem with missing repeated values at dys385.. So I bet all those L283's missing dys456 are with dys456=12. Which is a defining STR for PH1602. As PH1602 is downstream from J-Y15058 which was found in proto-Delmatae burial in Dalmatia it is clear their distant origin is in the West. There is another Bulgarian at FTDNA with dys456=12 and he matches a Vlach from Greece. So overall counting these as dys458=12, on a sample of 25 Bulgarian J-L283, 7 of those have dys456=12/are likely PH1602. That's more than 1/4 being descended from the Western Balkans in Early Iron Age. In addition counting those where dys385a is available we might say 7/35 are likely Z631 (dys385a=10/13). So it seems almost half of Bulgarian J-L283's are PH1602/Z631, in a significant contrast to Albanian J-L283 structure where Z631/PH1602 make up 9 %.. Both of these are younger, PH1602 has certainly origin in Western Balkans, Z631 too. I think both of these likely had a connection to Glasinac-Mati Illyrian culture whose carriers at one point had a migration to the East.

In Albanians interestingly PH1602 doesn't exist yet, not sure if there are any dys456=12 in studies.


Excellent analysis. I enjoyed reading this post. There are many PH1602 individuals (DYS 456=12 as you’ve mentioned) who are yet to be grouped in the M241 project page. Looking forward to theories regarding this particular branch of J2b2 L283.

Trojet
08-08-19, 14:05
Yes it seems good part of Bulgarian J-L283's might descend of Illyrian eastward movements.
In particular the example of this might be J-PH1602.
Already one Bulgarian J-Y40288 clusters with a Serb from Central Serbia. Their TMRCA is low so might be some recent movement.
But in the study of 808 Bulgarian haplotypes there are 19 available J-M241's, of those 5 are missing dys456. Now why would that be? Only they are missing dys456. I think it's something similar to multiple R-YP4278 looking haplotypes missing their key value of very low dys458=13, one J-F4306 also is missing dys458, 13 is very common there. Also a problem with missing repeated values at dys385.. So I bet all those L283's missing dys456 are with dys456=12. Which is a defining STR for PH1602. As PH1602 is downstream from J-Y15058 which was found in proto-Delmatae burial in Dalmatia it is clear their distant origin is in the West. There is another Bulgarian at FTDNA with dys456=12 and he matches a Vlach from Greece. So overall counting these as dys458=12, on a sample of 25 Bulgarian J-L283, 7 of those have dys456=12/are likely PH1602. That's more than 1/4 being descended from the Western Balkans in Early Iron Age. In addition counting those where dys385a is available we might say 7/35 are likely Z631 (dys385a=10/13). So it seems almost half of Bulgarian J-L283's are PH1602/Z631, in a significant contrast to Albanian J-L283 structure where Z631/PH1602 make up 9 %.. Both of these are younger, PH1602 has certainly origin in Western Balkans, Z631 too. I think both of these likely had a connection to Glasinac-Mati Illyrian culture whose carriers at one point had a migration to the East.
In Albanians interestingly PH1602 doesn't exist yet, not sure if there are any dys456=12 in studies.

Yes, I haven't seen any DYS456=12 (J-PH1602) among Albanians as of yet. There is actually one, but he is a match to the J-CTS11100*>Hoti Cluster, so he should have a recent mutation from 13>12 there. Alternatively, I haven't ran into any J-Z38300 north of Montenegro, unless we're talking of some recent J-PH1751's that might've migrated there with Arbanasi, etc, so everything is pointing to what I suggested below some time ago.

PS. Turns out the Sardinian J-YP9 is positive for Y21045 which is at the same level as PH2967, and also Z1296 and Z638 are now at the same level. YFull used Y21045 to define the clade as they have no call for PH2967, but they are negative for Z38300 and PH4679.


Indeed, PH1602 hasn't been found among Albanians thus far. This clade's center of diversity is certainly in the Western Balkans as well, though it seems further north in the area of Croatia/Bosnia.

IMO, J-L283 expanded in the Western Balkans during the Middle Bronze Age, or around the timeframe we find this J-L283>Y15058 in Dalmatia. So what's likely to have happened is around that time, generally Z1296 probably went further south (modern Montenegro, North Albania), while Y15058 generally more northern (modern Croatia, Bosnia). This is also supported by the new sample from Mat, Albania, as he should split the J-Y20899 clade, which is a "basal" J-Z1296, around that timeframe or Middle Bronze Age. Also, in a STR study from Apulia, I didn't see any PH1602 looking haplotypes (PH1602 usually has DYS456=12), but I noticed some Z1296 looking ones, particularly Z1296>Y20899, and Z1296>Z1297>Y23094, maybe others. Again, consistent with the idea that Y15058 was more northern, while Z638>Z1296 more southern.

Aspurg
13-08-19, 21:16
Excellent analysis. I enjoyed reading this post. There are many PH1602 individuals (DYS 456=12 as you’ve mentioned) who are yet to be grouped in the M241 project page. Looking forward to theories regarding this particular branch of J2b2 L283.


Thanks, I don't think it's very complicated to make hypothesis about PH1602, considering the Vanik sample.


I see some German PH1602's especially YF10055 from Rheinland.
Roman inscription from Bingerbrück
Bato Dasantis fil(ius) | natione Ditio mil(es) ex|coh(orte) IIII Delmatarum a|n(orum) XXXV stipendior(um) XV | h(ic) s(itus) e(st) h(eres) p(osuit).


Soldier Bato was from the tribe Ditiones from IV'th Delmatian cohort. Ditiones were very near Delmatae and likely/possibly related.



so everything is pointing to what I suggested below some time ago.



Yes it seems Z1296 migrated en masse towards Southeast which was expected because the archaeological culture where J-L283 was found did not originate in modern-day Albania but Dalmatia/Western Bosnia, so they must have arrived from NW.

Johane Derite
13-08-19, 21:46
I see some German PH1602's especially YF10055 from Rheinland.
Roman inscription from Bingerbrück
Bato Dasantis fil(ius) | natione Ditio mil(es) ex|coh(orte) IIII Delmatarum a|n(orum) XXXV stipendior(um) XV | h(ic) s(itus) e(st) h(eres) p(osuit).


Soldier Bato was from the tribe Ditiones from IV'th Delmatian cohort. Ditiones were very near Delmatae and likely/possibly related.



Fascinating

Johane Derite
13-08-19, 21:57
Btw, the name "Dasos" according to Radoslav Katicic (Rest in Peace, he died yesterday) belongs to the Delmato-Pannonian name system (although I think they are both the same language personally).

He lists Dasius, Dasent, Dasmenus as examples.

There is a very high probability that Das- is related to the male name "Dash (ram) common in the Albanian highlands.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EAQAkbzUIAAmcvV?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

blevins13
13-08-19, 23:37
Btw, the name "Dasos" according to Radoslav Katicic (Rest in Peace, he died yesterday) belongs to the Delmato-Pannonian name system (although I think they are both the same language personally).

He lists Dasius, Dasent, Dasmenus as examples.

There is a very high probability that Das- is related to the male name "Dash (ram) common in the Albanian highlands.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EAQAkbzUIAAmcvV?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

Does this movement of Dalmatae tribes south probably during gothic times could offer a valid hypothesis of geg/tosk spilt?


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Wanderer
14-08-19, 05:13
Indeed that J2b-L283 is typical to Albanians, from Europe populations.
I seen Kosovars got 23% R1B-M269 and that other Albanians got 26.5% (Maqedoni (Gjithsej 34)).
Also, Kosovars got 8.3% I1 so they clearly mixed with some Germanic people that came from Scandinavia.
I am not sure that Illyrians are more than 2000 BC ancient, in Balkans.
They should have come with the Celtic tribes (the Illyrians).
Fatherland actually scores some similarity to Scottish people :) .
Who came first in Balkans, Thracians or Illyrians, that, I have no idea.
Acording to Maciamo, R1B came latest in Europe, while I came first :) .
R1A came before R1B in Europe, but not so early, maybe 2000 years before R1B.
There are also ex-Yugos and Romanians that are scoring some similarity with Welsh/South English people, but not too much (Romanians, up to 17% from what I seen. Ex Yugos, might score more).

So, J2b2-L283 might have been in Balkans before Illyrians and E-V13, might also have been in Balkans,before Illyrians came there.
Illyrians might have been actually mostly R1B-M269 and conquered the E-V13 and J2b2-L283 Balkanites.J-L283 is only typical to albanians in certain specific subclades.
Meaning that those subclades just had the most offspring when merged to proto albanians. But other subclades have nothing to do with illyrians or albanians.

Wanderer
14-08-19, 05:23
Also r1b i would associate with bell beakers

Wanderer
14-08-19, 20:38
J2B2-L283 is too ancient to be brought by Illyrians.
Should be from the times of Neolithic in Europe.
So, J2B2-L283 should be from 8000 BC in Balkans.
During the Neolithic, no Illyrians existed.
Not in Europe, not in Asia.
Neither proto-Celto-Ilyro-Romans existed 10k years ago. Not in Europe, not in Asia.
That R1B-M269 that you see in Albania is what the Illyrians should have mostly brought in Balkans, but not all of it.
A part of that R1B-M269 was brought by Celtic tribes in Balkans.
Or, if Celts formed in Balkans, protoCelto-Ilyrians migrated to Balkans and brought that R1B-M269.
There are 2 hypothesis about Illyrian languages:
One is that the Illyrian languages were Centum and the other, that Illyrian languages were Satem.
If we take the Centum variant, is hard for Illyrians to have brought in their migration from Asia to Balkans J2b2-L283.
However, is known that Romans did not only carried R1B-U152, but some G and some J2A.
So, there is a possibility that J2B2-L283 and R1B-M269 were brought by Illyrians in Balkans.
As for the hypothesis that Illyrians spoke Satem,I think that is not so plausible.
Albanian is most Centum shifted language from all Satem languages and I think it took this Satem character because Thracians conquered Illyrians and later, Slavs influenced Illyrians.

J-L283 was more than likely still in the caucus or middle east somewhere. The earliest samples of J-L283 is in the caucus. The earliest sample of of one in europe is about 1200 bc croatia. Its very unlikely it was in europe that early.
But we know that J-L283 split with a lineage that settled in Afghanistan in its basal state. Some of those ended up in india, pakistan ect.

Aspurg
22-08-19, 01:37
Another result from Bosniak project I noticed, Grosic from Bosnian Krajina J-Z1043* (YSEQ ?).

Trojet
22-08-19, 02:18
Another result from Bosniak project I noticed, Grosic from Bosnian Krajina J-Z1043* (YSEQ ?).

Interesting. I would guess this is the haplotype with 388=16, 389=13-29 where the Albanian J-Z631>Thaçi-Korbi belongs. The reason is because one such haplotype recently tested as J-Z1043* on their YSEQ group ;) The Greek who did BigY didn't have any reads for Z1043, so we now know the 388=16 & 389=13-29 cluster is J-Z1043*. The Greek hasn't yet uploaded to YFull, however. Also, an Albanian who tested J-Z1043* on YSEQ, with a different haplotype, has a Dante Labs WGS on order, so hopefully we see him on YFull soon and add more Balkan diversity there..

Trojet
08-11-19, 22:31
An interesting J2b-L283 in ancient DNA from: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/708


Sample R474, Civitavecchia, Etruscan, 700-600 BCE (Iron Age/Roman Republic) is: J2b-L283>>Z597>Y15058>CTS6190


Furthermore, he is positive for three Private SNPs of YF03795 USA. So he creates a subclade downstream of J-CTS6190 with YF03795, parallel to the other three: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/


Considering this find and its modern distribution, the whole J-CTS6190 may have become Etruscan. However, since we have an older J-Y15058 in southern Croatia by ~1000 years and so far no J-Z597>Y146400 in Italy, it likely migrated from across the Adriatic sometime between MBA to LBA.


In regards to the more distant origin of J2b-L283 and its migration, I would invite some of you, especially Aspurg, to read the following comment from Davidski: http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/11/whats-difference-between-ancient-romans.html?showComment=1573215892618&m=1#c9131100267437864398


Anyways, let's wait for upcoming aDNA ;)

Johane Derite
08-11-19, 22:40
An interesting J2b-L283 in ancient DNA from: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/708


Sample R474, Civitavecchia, Etruscan, 700-600 BCE (Iron Age/Roman Republic) is: J2b-L283>>Z597>Y15058>CTS6190


Furthermore, he is positive for three Private SNPs of YF03795 USA. So he creates a subclade downstream of J-CTS6190 with YF03795, parallel to the other three: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/


Considering this find and its modern distribution, the whole J-CTS6190 may have become Etruscan. However, since we have an older J-Y15058 in southern Croatia by ~1000 years and so far no J-Z597>Y146400 in Italy, it likely migrated from across the Adriatic sometime between MBA to LBA.


In regards to the more distant origin of J2b-L283 and its migration, I would invite some of you, especially Aspurg, to read the following comment from Davidski: http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/11/whats-difference-between-ancient-romans.html?showComment=1573215892618&m=1#c9131100267437864398


Anyways, let's wait for upcoming aDNA ;)

He was arguing until quite recently for J2b middle eastern/anatolian/levant origin. He must have seen something convincing to have abandoned that position. I guess more samples are coming.

Aspurg
08-11-19, 23:12
Considering this find and its modern distribution, the whole J-CTS6190 may have become Etruscan. However, since we have an older J-Y15058 in southern Croatia by ~1000 years and so far no J-Z597>Y146400 in Italy, it likely migrated from across the Adriatic sometime between MBA to LBA.


In regards to the more distant origin of J2b-L283 and its migration, I would invite some of you, especially Aspurg, to read the following comment from Davidski: http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/11/whats-difference-between-ancient-romans.html?showComment=1573215892618&m=1#c9131100267437864398


Anyways, let's wait for upcoming aDNA ;)

I think too the whole J-CTS6190 is Etruscan, as for the J-L283 origin, Etruscans were similar to Latins autosomally, and I think this Etruscan is not so different from the Dalmatian find.

What is weird about J-L283 are these older clades in Sardinia, and presence in Nuragic Sardinia, whereas at that time there were no R-M269 etc.

It's not impossible for J-CTS6190 to have been a local who remained in Italy if it expanded to Balkans (from N.Italy) during MBA, as J-CTS6190 is still abit distant to the other clades (3800 ybp).. In any case J-L283 is not native to Balkans but it came as a force during EBA/MBA. It's clear it has a strong Illyrian association.

I heard of some I1 and R-U152 in Etruscans, those must be from other studies?? And I guess Davidski might have some additional insight if someone has leaked something.

Wanderer
09-11-19, 17:04
He was arguing until quite recently for J2b middle eastern/anatolian/levant origin. He must have seen something convincing to have abandoned that position. I guess more samples are coming.It still might have a anatolians levant origin but specifically for my clade. For most others probably not.

Trojet
18-11-19, 18:58
Today I noticed an interesting new BigY result for J-L283 research. Someone who seems to be with origin from Alsace (France/Germany border region), splits the J-YP29 clade, which is one of the rare J-L283 branches, parallel to the more popular J-Z600. He is only positive for one SNP, with the remaining showing negative. This would suggest that J-L283 expanded en masse westwards soon after its TMRCA lived, my best guess would be from around NW shores of the Black Sea.

Also, recently an Armenian with an interesting J2b haplotype ordered a BigY. Let's see where he fits but I think he is likely some rare/basal J-L283.

Trojet
18-11-19, 19:34
I think too the whole J-CTS6190 is Etruscan, as for the J-L283 origin, Etruscans were similar to Latins autosomally, and I think this Etruscan is not so different from the Dalmatian find.

Bingo. In addition to both being J-Y15058+, they have very similar Autosomal components. So IMO, this "Etruscan clade" is very likely a migrant from accros the Adriatic, and not the other way around.


What is weird about J-L283 are these older clades in Sardinia, and presence in Nuragic Sardinia, whereas at that time there were no R-M269 etc.

Hehe, no matter how many times you bring these "old Sardinian clades", to me it's evident J-L283 is not native to Sardinia or Italy ;) The MBA North Caucasus sample, imo, killed this theory. Sure, it's possible it initially migrated to North Italy and subsequently expanded into both western Balkans and the Italian peninsula, but I don't think it's native to Italy. I'm no Autosomal expert, but as far as I recall, these Nuragic J-L283 samples did show some "Steppe" ancestry. And J-L283 didn't have to migrate at the same time and in the same regions as an R-M269 clade.


I heard of some I1 and R-U152 in Etruscans, those must be from other studies?? And I guess Davidski might have some additional insight if someone has leaked something.

I heard about this rumor of Etruscan I1 and R-U152 samples too, but didn't see any in this recent paper. Perhaps there is an upcoming one..

LABERIA
18-11-19, 19:49
Alberto G. Areddu author of the book "Albanian Origins of Civilization in Sardinia” (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26476-Alberto-G-Areddu-author-of-the-book-Albanian-Origins-of-Civilization-in-Sardinia”)

Aspurg
18-11-19, 22:07
Bingo. In addition to both being J-Y15058+, they have very similar Autosomal components. So IMO, this "Etruscan clade" is very likely a migrant from accros the Adriatic, and not the other way around.

He did look similar on some preliminary models I saw, though Latins and Etruscans also showed similarities. He might have migrated to there but this clade as I said is still distant to other clades at 3800 ybp, your clade too has a Sardinian cousin J-YP9.



Hehe, no matter how many times you bring these "old Sardinian clades", to me it's evident J-L283 is not native to Sardinia or Italy ;) The MBA North Caucasus sample, imo, killed this theory. Sure, it's possible it initially migrated to North Italy and subsequently expanded into both western Balkans and the Italian peninsula, but I don't think it's native to Italy. I'm no Autosomal expert, but as far as I recall, these Nuragic J-L283 samples did show some "Steppe" ancestry. And J-L283 didn't have to migrate at the same time and in the same regions as an R-M269 clade.

Well Sardinian clades are old, and why would it be logical to assume that they arrived there 1200 BC when their TMRCA is 3400 BC. Also there is a Tuscan NA20763. J-L283 with this French YP29 clearly has a Western orientation. So if it arrived from the NW shore of the Black Sea it must have first expanded to the West. In that context Bell Bekaers had some early presence in Sardinia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture_in_Sardinia) so it might have arrived then.

N.Caucasian is in vicinity of the Steppe indeed, I think he is quite basal and unrelated to any other L283? He was dated little earlier than Dalmatian sample. Also I think J-L283 has been in Europe in EBA as well. It maybe expanded to W.Balkans around EBA/MBA turnover, but it was present in Europe before. J-Y15058 also has some relatively older clades in Western/Northern Europe.

I see that Greek J-Z631 is now at YFull. J-BY38004 from Vojvodina is not a Serb almost certainly. I don't think he is Hungarian either. Nebojsa thinks he is Romanian from Banat, that's probably most likely. He has a cousin in Vojvodina study from 2008, and there are various Hungarians, Romanians, Roma in that sample.

Trojet
19-11-19, 00:09
He did look similar on some preliminary models I saw, though Latins and Etruscans also showed similarities. He might have migrated to there but this clade as I said is still distant to other clades at 3800 ybp, your clade too has a Sardinian cousin J-YP9.

Indeed. And the J-YP9 clade in Sardinia likely has a fairly high TMRCA as there is two Sardinians there sharing only three SNPs among themselves, probably similar TMRCA to its "brother" J-Z38300.


Well Sardinian clades are old, and why would it be logical to assume that they arrived there 1200 BC when their TMRCA is 3400 BC. Also there is a Tuscan NA20763. J-L283 with this French YP29 clearly has a Western orientation. So if it arrived from the NW shore of the Black Sea it must have first expanded to the West. In that context Bell Bekaers had some early presence in Sardinia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture_in_Sardinia) so it might have arrived then.

Yes, not saying J-L283 arrived there right at 1200 BCE, just that it's not native to Sardinia like you once proclaimed on Poreklo: "J-L283 = Neolithic Sardinia" :smile:

What you're saying now maybe is not so far-fetched, that it perhaps arrived in Sardinia with some wave of Bell Beakers starting ~2000 BCE. I see that Wiki article states: "Then, the Beaker culture mixed with the related Bonnanaro culture, considered the first stage of the Nuragic civilization."

But what's interesting to me is J-L283 has so far never been found among the continental Beakers or deep within European EBA.


N.Caucasian is in vicinity of the Steppe indeed, I think he is quite basal and unrelated to any other L283? He was dated little earlier than Dalmatian sample. Also I think J-L283 has been in Europe in EBA as well. It maybe expanded to W.Balkans around EBA/MBA turnover, but it was present in Europe before. J-Y15058 also has some relatively older clades in Western/Northern Europe.

Yes, KDC001 Kudachurt ~3823 YBP MBA North Caucasus is J-L283+ (+9 other SNPs) and Z627- YP91-. So definitely negative on SNPs on both branches, J-Z600 and J-YP29. However, this French/Alsace that splits the J-YP29 clade is positive for BY55372 but negative for the rest, and this ancient sample has no call for BY55372. This SNP is currently not being used on YFull's tree (I'm guessing because the Sardinian has no call), but I verified that it should be a J-YP29 equivalent.



I see Greek that J-Z631 is now at YFull. J-BY38004 from Vojvodina is not a Serb almost certainly. I don't think he is Hungarian either. Nebojsa thinks he is Romanian from Banat, that's probably most likely. He has a cousin in Vojvodina study from 2008, and there are various Hungarians, Romanians, Roma in that sample.

The new Greek J-Z631 is most definitely the one with 388=16, 389I,II=13,29. So he should be J-Z1043*.

Not sure if I posted here, but the recent ancient sample: R116, 0-200 CE, Imperial Rome, is CTS10800+ Z639+ Y155546- Y158382- Y144421- Z1048- Y87605 NC Y130482 NC
So it looks like he is near J-Z631*, but definitely negative for 3/4 downstream subclades including Z1048.

This result does certainly add weight to the thesis that J-Z631 originated around the Adriatic and was mostly spread around Europe through Roman legionaries. However, on the other hand, since its autosomal seems western shifted, I think it also supports the Celtic expansion theory.

Aspurg
19-11-19, 02:34
Yes, not saying J-L283 arrived there right at 1200 BCE, just that it's not native to Sardinia like you once proclaimed on Poreklo: "J-L283 = Neolithic Sardinia" :smile:

What you're saying now maybe is not so far-fetched, that it perhaps arrived in Sardinia with some wave of Bell Beakers starting ~2000 BCE. I see that Wiki article states: "Then, the Beaker culture mixed with the related Bonnanaro culture, considered the first stage of the Nuragic civilization."

But what's interesting to me is J-L283 has so far never been found among the continental Beakers or deep within European EBA.

I was being deliberately theatrical there, as I had problems with some of their other comments at the time. Well yes J-L283 were Nuragic addition, the only new hg so they might have had significant influence on formation of that culture and that detail does involve Beakers there as well. I know, no L283 Beaker finds thus far but some more Southern areas might yield results eventually. They likely won't be find in Iberia, Britain, NW Europe.
Female Vanik sample had mtdna W3a1, found in one German BB, Yamnaya. Interestingly J-L283 sample had I1a1, also rare and more Eastern, my own is I1a1a, possibly he too falls there.




The new Greek J-Z631 is most definitely the one with 388=16, 389I,II=13,29. So he should be J-Z1043*.

Not sure if I posted here, but the recent ancient sample: R116, 0-200 CE, Imperial Rome, is CTS10800+ Z639+ Y155546- Y158382- Y144421- Z1048- Y87605 NC Y130482 NC
So it looks like he is near J-Z631*, but definitely negative for 3/4 downstream subclades including Z1048.

This result does certainly add weight to the thesis that J-Z631 originated around the Adriatic and was mostly spread around Europe through Roman legionaries. However, on the other hand, since its autosomal seems western shifted, I think it also supports the Celtic expansion theory.

Thats what I noticed about R116, high NW autosomal result. I thought clade J-CTS11760 is definitely Celtic, some others might be as well. I think Z631 should be related to Glasinac-Mati, and some of its clades migrated to the North, they might have mingled there with proto-Celts.

Dema
20-11-19, 16:11
This just reminded me that i also seen his post on Serb forum where he says J2-L283 is Neolithic and where he says that Albanians have rushed in theory that J2-L283 spread with IE only based on some autosomal results and mtDNA.

What he does not understand is that this is not based on I4331 autosomal neither mtDNA, but rather on so far tested ancient results where pretty much entire Europe was tested since Paleolithic and yet this Croatian 1600 BCE sample I4331 was the first and oldest J2b-L283 found. Second to that L283 has exclusively and very harsh Bronze Age Indo-European expansion.

J2b-L283 formed 9600 ybp, TMRCA 5400 ybp, so by looking at Yfull its easy to see that almost all and vast majority of samples come from Indo-European or more specific European populations, where TMRCA somewhat nicely fits Bronze Age Indo-European expansion.

However, as we know oldest IE cultures were pretty much homogenous R1a or R1b, also by looking at all other evidences as earlier splits when going upward the genetic tree, by my theory J2b-L283 was some kind of North Caucasus population originally. Probably offshot from Zagros to Caucasus, giving that oldest J2b-M12* was found in Zagros mountains.

Furthermore by my opinion J2b-L283 was picked up somewhere in a path of Yamnaya to South and West Europe by most likely R1b (probably R-Z2103) which is major R1 in Albanians and probably source of Albanian language.

Furthermore by my opinion i can conclude the same for E1b-v13 branch, which is most likely giving by the many evidences present since Neolithic in Europe but as a minor population, but only later one part of E-v13 specifically 4800 ybp TMRCA part joined with IE, probably somewhere in East Europe and also spread with Bronze Age Indo Europeans.

Dema
20-11-19, 16:21
Also regarding Etruscan J2b-L283, there is no doubt that Etruscan J2b-L283 is Dalmatian expansion since they are exactly same branch, therefore most likely arrived with same source, and it had exactly 1000 years to expand from Dalmatia to Italy which is btw very close one to another. Maybe this sample does not reflect real Etruscan origin, or Etruscans where already mixed with Indo-Europeans in that time of period. Or maybe Etruscans will also prove to be Indo-European expansion. Need more Etruscan samples to be sure of their origin, we cant judge by one sample. But what is clear is that Dalmatia J2b-L283 which most likely arrived with Bronze Age Indo-Europeans later also expanded in entire Italy which more samples can testify and not only this 700 BCE Etruscan one, which is btw very young sample and has no priority when looking at origin. Its clearly Dalmatian Bronze Age or later Balkan expansion into Italian Peninsula.

ShpataEMadhe
20-11-19, 23:32
Does anyone have any deeper information on the dardani? Where did they come from, what year and did they have a successful reign in their region or were they wiped out/fully assimilated?

Dema
21-11-19, 16:28
Does anyone have any deeper information on the dardani? Where did they come from, what year and did they have a successful reign in their region or were they wiped out/fully assimilated?

This thread is not about ancient Dardani tribe, this is third thread where i am reporting you, this time for spam. :)

ShpataEMadhe
22-11-19, 22:15
This thread is not about ancient Dardani tribe, this is third thread where i am reporting you, this time for spam. :)

L283 could be dardani but only if it was a relevant tribe, their stronghold was mostly in the North East albania and kosova region. If dardani were trojans or related maybe it would explain j2b l283

Dema
27-11-19, 17:59
L283 could be dardani but only if it was a relevant tribe, their stronghold was mostly in the North East albania and kosova region. If dardani were trojans or related maybe it would explain j2b l283


You do understand how stupid this sounds?

Trojet
10-12-19, 13:43
Today I noticed an interesting new BigY result for J-L283 research. Someone who seems to be with origin from Alsace (France/Germany border region), splits the J-YP29 clade, which is one of the rare J-L283 branches, parallel to the more popular J-Z600. He is only positive for one SNP, with the remaining showing negative. This would suggest that J-L283 expanded en masse westwards soon after its TMRCA lived, my best guess would be from around NW shores of the Black Sea.

Also, recently an Armenian with an interesting J2b haplotype ordered a BigY. Let's see where he fits but I think he is likely some rare/basal J-L283.

And we have the BigY result for this Armenian. A very interesting result: He is J-L283* and also negative for around 7 L283 SNPs, maybe a few more. So he splits the J-L283 node, probably around 6000 ybp or not far from its current TMRCA. This means the European branches J-Z600 and J-BY55372>YP29 will fall downstream, more specifically below J-L283>Z577,Z622.

Piro Ilir
10-12-19, 16:38
J-L283 was more than likely still in the caucus or middle east somewhere. The earliest samples of J-L283 is in the caucus. The earliest sample of of one in europe is about 1200 bc croatia. Its very unlikely it was in europe that early.
But we know that J-L283 split with a lineage that settled in Afghanistan in its basal state. Some of those ended up in india, pakistan ect.

J2b2 in India and in Afghanistan is a remain of the Macedonian invasion. Macedonians were southern Illyrians whom got heavily influenced by the Hellenic civilization. Not mentioning that some Illyrian proper were part of the Macedonian army at the Asian conquest

torzio
10-12-19, 17:30
J2b2 in India and in Afghanistan is a remain of the Macedonian invasion. Macedonians were southern Illyrians whom got heavily influenced by the Hellenic civilization. Not mentioning that some Illyrian proper were part of the Macedonian army at the Asian conquest

Do we also assume that Paeonians who lived between Macedonians and Dardanians are also "illyrians "?

Kelmendasi
10-12-19, 18:02
J2b2 in India and in Afghanistan is a remain of the Macedonian invasion. Macedonians were southern Illyrians whom got heavily influenced by the Hellenic civilization. Not mentioning that some Illyrian proper were part of the Macedonian army at the Asian conquest
Not really. The vast majority of Indian and Asian J2b2 is Z2432+ and not L283+ like European J2b2. Z2432 likely expanded into the Indian subcontinent and surrounding areas during the Neolithic (maybe later) from around Iran. The J2b-L283 in Asia however, is certainly of more recent European origin.

Some Z2432+ aDNA:
1) I11480, from the Jiroft Culture (Eastern Iran), dated ~4,800ybp - J2b-Z2432>Y22893
2) I4157, from Bustan, BMAC Culture, dated ~3,400ybp - J2b-Z2432
3) I12458, from Loebanr, dated ~2,800ybp - J2b-Z2432>Y950
4) I12982, from Loebanr, dated ~2,800ybp - J2b-Z2432>Y950>Y2155

ShpataEMadhe
22-12-19, 00:53
Not really. The vast majority of Indian and Asian J2b2 is Z2432+ and not L283+ like European J2b2. Z2432 likely expanded into the Indian subcontinent and surrounding areas during the Neolithic (maybe later) from around Iran. The J2b-L283 in Asia however, is certainly of more recent European origin.

Some Z2432+ aDNA:
1) I11480, from the Jiroft Culture (Eastern Iran), dated ~4,800ybp - J2b-Z2432>Y22893
2) I4157, from Bustan, BMAC Culture, dated ~3,400ybp - J2b-Z2432
3) I12458, from Loebanr, dated ~2,800ybp - J2b-Z2432>Y950
4) I12982, from Loebanr, dated ~2,800ybp - J2b-Z2432>Y950>Y2155

A question, how much ev13 and r1b is found in the same regions of India where j2b is found?

Kelmendasi
22-12-19, 01:05
A question, how much ev13 and r1b is found in the same regions of India where j2b is found?
J2b is primarily found around Northern India, in this region E and R1b are found in frequencies below 1%. There are some tribes that may have up to 5% R1b however. E-V13 is practically non-existent in South Asia.

ShpataEMadhe
22-12-19, 01:26
J2b is primarily found around Northern India, in this region E and R1b are found in frequencies below 1%. There are some tribes that may have up to 5% R1b however. E-V13 is practically non-existent in South Asia.

That is odd. How much j2b percentage is found in that region of India?

Kelmendasi
22-12-19, 01:41
That is odd. How much j2b percentage is found in that region of India?
In India, J2b is most commonly found in the Shia Muslims whom have it at a percentage of 4.4%.

ShpataEMadhe
22-12-19, 02:10
In India, J2b is most commonly found in the Shia Muslims whom have it at a percentage of 4.4%.

That is a lot for a short conquest, although the greeks did rule that region again later on "Greek rule (180 BC-10 AD)". I have questions

1. Was J2b a MUCH bigger percentage in South albanians/macedonians/greeks who may have been part of Alexander the Greats army and also after him? This is the only way it would have so much more impact than ev13 or r1b in India

2. What would explain the drastic change in j2b l283 numbers in South albania/macedonia/Greece? Why did they diminish so much?

Who were these j2b l283 people? Did ev13 and R1b come over and expand later on? Could it be that ev13 came along with the romans and wiped out most j2b in these regions? I doubt balkan ev13 is roman but it is the only theory I can use which explains these j2b l283 numbers. Someone needs to explain j2b l283

Kelmendasi
22-12-19, 02:32
That is a lot for a short conquest, although the greeks did rule that region again later on "Greek rule (180 BC-10 AD)". I have questions
1. Was J2b a MUCH bigger percentage in South albanians/macedonians/greeks who may have been part of Alexander the Greats army and also after him? This is the only way it would have so much more impact than ev13 or r1b in India

2. What would explain the drastic change in j2b l283 numbers in South albania/macedonia/Greece? Why did they diminish so much?

Who were these j2b l283 people? Did ev13 and R1b come over and expand later on? Could it be that ev13 came along with the romans and wiped out most j2b in these regions? I doubt balkan ev13 is roman but it is the only theory I can use which explains these j2b l283 numbers. Someone needs to explain j2b l283
The J2b in South Asia isn't from any kind of Greek or European conquest, they belong to J2b-Z2432 and not J2b-L283. L283 and Z2432 shared a common ancestor ~9,600 years ago. J2b-Z2432 has been present in the region since at least the Early Bronze Age and arrived from around Iran, this has been proven by aDNA.

Haplogroup frequencies can change significantly due to many reasons. The vast majority of Balkan haplogroups have TMRCAs of around 2,000-1,500ybp due to bottlenecks which were likely caused by the drastic changes which were happening in the region during this time frame. Albanian J2b-L283 clades were also affected by this for the most part, with most clades seemingly having expanded from the north of Albania.

Placing importance on frequency is illogical. aDNA, diversity and basal clade diversity are most important.

ShpataEMadhe
22-12-19, 03:16
The J2b in South Asia isn't from any kind of Greek or European conquest, they belong to J2b-Z2432 and not J2b-L283. L283 and Z2432 shared a common ancestor ~9,600 years ago. J2b-Z2432 has been present in the region since at least the Early Bronze Age and arrived from around Iran, this has been proven by aDNA.
Haplogroup frequencies can change significantly due to many reasons. The vast majority of Balkan haplogroups have TMRCAs of around 2,000-1,500ybp due to bottlenecks which were likely caused by the drastic changes which were happening in the region during this time frame. Albanian J2b-L283 clades were also affected by this for the most part, with most clades seemingly having expanded from the north of Albania.
Placing importance on frequency is illogical. aDNA, diversity and basal clade diversity are most important.

How was this 9600 years ago worked out exactly? I mean the years they give to fossils and everything else I do not believe either, it all seems like a bit of a stretch. So 9600 years ago middle eastern men/families (could have been white from the beginning) moved over to the balkans and over time formed a big tribe? Or is it the other way round?

As for 2,000-1,500ybp, were the romans the cause of this? Thousands of years ago, actually even hundreds of years ago inbreeding was common due to trust issues so each race was actually less mixed than they are today, does this factor into bottlenecks?

I would like to know which tribe/group lived in Iran and ended up moving to northern albania (mostly north east/kosova according to modern numbers) and North India because so far the only 2 links I am aware of between albania and Iran/North India can be these:

1. Alexander the greats army
2. Osman conquest
3. Roma gypsies

You have ruled out the first 2 with tmrca 9600ybp and as far as I'm aware balkan roma gypsies do not often carry j2b l283 so if someone with better history knowledge than me on this subject can step in that'd be great

Angela
22-12-19, 04:18
Are some of you homeless bkz you've been kicked off all the other sites?

Fair warning: keep up with the t-roll posts and you'll be out of here in short order, whether it's a bunch of you sickos, or just one sick, twisted jerk with multiple personality disorder. No one is interested in playing your juvenile games.

Polska
22-12-19, 04:23
How was this 9600 years ago worked out exactly? I mean the years they give to fossils and everything else I do not believe either, it all seems like a bit of a stretch. So 9600 years ago middle eastern men/families (could have been white from the beginning) moved over to the balkans and over time formed a big tribe? Or is it the other way round?
As for 2,000-1,500ybp, were the romans the cause of this? Thousands of years ago, actually even hundreds of years ago inbreeding was common due to trust issues so each race was actually less mixed than they are today, does this factor into bottlenecks?
I would like to know which tribe/group lived in Iran and ended up moving to northern albania (mostly north east/kosova according to modern numbers) and North India because so far the only 2 links I am aware of between albania and Iran/North India can be these:
1. Alexander the greats army
2. Osman conquest
3. Roma gypsies
You have ruled out the first 2 with tmrca 9600ybp and as far as I'm aware balkan roma gypsies do not often carry j2b l283 so if someone with better history knowledge than me on this subject can step in that'd be great
J2b L283 is a Caucasian haplogroup that most likely moved north through the Caucasus Mountains to what is today southern Russia/Steppe and was integrated into the westward Indo European expansions from there into Europe, probably Central Europe and into the Balkans with the Illyrians and closely related tribes. There is a mounting body of evidence using current samples and ancient samples (Russia, Croatia) that supports this migration path.
https://phylogeographer.com/j-l283-the-case-for-a-north-of-the-black-sea-migration-from-w-asia-to-europe/

Dema
22-12-19, 04:55
J2b L283 is a Caucasian haplogroup that most likely moved north through the Caucasus Mountains to what is today southern Russia/Steppe and was integrated into the westward Indo European expansions from there into Europe, probably Central Europe and into the Balkans with the Illyrians and closely related tribes. There is a mounting body of evidence using current samples and ancient samples (Russia, Croatia) that supports this migration path.
https://phylogeographer.com/j-l283-the-case-for-a-north-of-the-black-sea-migration-from-w-asia-to-europe/


I agree with this and i want to say,

Its simmilar to what i said few pages back: "However, as we know oldest IE cultures were pretty much homogenous R1a or R1b, also by looking at all other evidences as earlier splits when going upward the genetic tree, by my theory J2b-L283 was some kind of North Caucasus population originally. Probably offshot from Zagros to Caucasus, giving that oldest J2b-M12* was found in Zagros mountains."


By all so far given proofs M241 is probably Zagros Paleolithic, same as J2-M205. M241 clade is most likely Zagros expansion to Caucasus.


Oldest J2b-M12* ancient DNA are from Zagros and earlier splits are all on both sides on Zagros while almost none existent in Caucasus.

Polska
22-12-19, 05:42
I agree with this and i want to say,

Its simmilar to what i said few pages back: "However, as we know oldest IE cultures were pretty much homogenous R1a or R1b, also by looking at all other evidences as earlier splits when going upward the genetic tree, by my theory J2b-L283 was some kind of North Caucasus population originally. Probably offshot from Zagros to Caucasus, giving that oldest J2b-M12* was found in Zagros mountains."


By all so far given proofs M241 is probably Zagros Paleolithic, same as J2-M205. M241 clade is most likely Zagros expansion to Caucasus.


Oldest J2b-M12* ancient DNA are from Zagros and earlier splits are all on both sides on Zagros while almost none existent in Caucasus.

Always enjoyed reading your posts, as well as those from Trojet, Dibran, and Aspurg. Good source of information on L283 for me.

I can’t believe given the advancements in the phylogenetic tree, people still believe Alexander the Great spread J2b M241 to Iran or that J2b L283 originated in the Middle East. Takes 30 seconds to login to YFull and look at the YTree. It’s an overwhelmingly European haplogroup (L283) with only a few samples total outside of Europe.

Polska
22-12-19, 07:28
I have an interesting theory regarding how my PH1602 line may have wound up in southern Poland. They are from a village called Slopnice, which is in the Beskid Mountains in southern Poland near Slovakia. I was just reading about the Beskid Mountains today. The one thing that stood out was that the supposed origins of the name Beskid is either Illyrian or Thracian. Beskid is the same thing as bjeshkë in Albanian. I have traced my y line back to at least the year 900 in southern Poland, but not beyond. Many of the samples on the YFull YTree for PH1602 are from Serbia, Bulgaria, and Bosnia (along with Germany, Russia, and US). So I’m thinking there was potentially an ancient migration of Illyrians or closely related people to southern Poland from the Balkans. I’m wondering if there are any historical accounts of any such migration long ago?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beskids

Also, I did find this link regarding the Púchov culture that was nearby and influenced by Illyrian culture (about 2200 years ago):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Púchov_culture

Johane Derite
22-12-19, 09:30
I have an interesting theory regarding how my PH1602 line may have wound up in southern Poland. They are from a village called Slopnice, which is in the Beskid Mountains in southern Poland near Slovakia. I was just reading about the Beskid Mountains today. The one thing that stood out was that the supposed origins of the name Beskid is either Illyrian or Thracian. Beskid is the same thing as bjeshkë in Albanian. I have traced my y line back to at least the year 900 in southern Poland, but not beyond. Many of the samples on the YFull YTree for PH1602 are from Serbia, Bulgaria, and Bosnia (along with Germany, Russia, and US). So I’m thinking there was potentially an ancient migration of Illyrians or closely related people to southern Poland from the Balkans. I’m wondering if there are any historical accounts of any such migration long ago?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beskids

Also, I did find this link regarding the Púchov culture that was nearby and influenced by Illyrian culture (about 2200 years ago):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Púchov_culture

Could it be related to the Goral people?

Goral folk dress compared to Alb:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5Y1xH1WsAAFXXz?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5Y1xH2XkAEkuMZ?format=jpg&name=large

Vs

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2rPousWkAI9TjR?format=jpg&name=large

ShpataEMadhe
22-12-19, 13:26
J2b L283 is a Caucasian haplogroup that most likely moved north through the Caucasus Mountains to what is today southern Russia/Steppe and was integrated into the westward Indo European expansions from there into Europe, probably Central Europe and into the Balkans with the Illyrians and closely related tribes. There is a mounting body of evidence using current samples and ancient samples (Russia, Croatia) that supports this migration path.
https://phylogeographer.com/j-l283-the-case-for-a-north-of-the-black-sea-migration-from-w-asia-to-europe/

So did l283 come into the balkans after ilyrians were already established there or before? If they came WITH other ilyrian haplogroups from the same region at the same time modern y dna doesn't seem to back this up. J2b l283 has a stronghold in North East albania/kosova but is depleted in regions surrounding

Which other haplogroup sub clades came WITH j2b l283 to balkans at the same time? They must have a similar ratio to what they had in today's genetics for it to be viable. So if it was 2:1 j2b and whatever else it has to be similar today for it to make sense

Kelmendasi
22-12-19, 13:42
So did l283 come into the balkans after ilyrians were already established there or before? If they came WITH other ilyrian haplogroups from the same region at the same time modern y dna doesn't seem to back this up. J2b l283 has a stronghold in North East albania/kosova but is depleted in regions surrounding

Which other haplogroup sub clades came WITH j2b l283 to balkans at the same time? They must have a similar ratio to what they had in today's genetics for it to be viable. So if it was 2:1 j2b and whatever else it has to be similar today for it to make sense
You and these ratios....

Ratios mean nothing, a haplogroups frequency can change within a couple of generations. You've still got a lot of reading to do.

Polska
22-12-19, 17:22
Could it be related to the Goral people?

Goral folk dress compared to Alb:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5Y1xH1WsAAFXXz?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5Y1xH2XkAEkuMZ?format=jpg&name=large

Vs

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2rPousWkAI9TjR?format=jpg&name=large

Yes, my family were Gorale. As you’ve pointed out, they largely descend from migratory Vlachs who moved north into the Carpathian Mtns of Southern Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, and Ukraine. I was convinced this was the source of our PH1602 for many years since it is a Balkan haplogroup (also, there is a Vlach from the mountains of northern Greece who did the BigY and is PH1602). The only problem is that I have a close match with a family in Poland that likely goes back to the 900s, which predates the Vlach migrations to the Carpathians. We could still be Vlachs, but I’m open to the possibility of being related to Illyrians or closely related group who settled in the Carpathians prior to Vlach migration.

Piro Ilir
26-12-19, 18:43
Yes, my family were Gorale. As you’ve pointed out, they largely descend from migratory Vlachs who moved north into the Carpathian Mtns of Southern Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, and Ukraine. I was convinced this was the source of our PH1602 for many years since it is a Balkan haplogroup (also, there is a Vlach from the mountains of northern Greece who did the BigY and is PH1602). The only problem is that I have a close match with a family in Poland that likely goes back to the 900s, which predates the Vlach migrations to the Carpathians. We could still be Vlachs, but I’m open to the possibility of being related to Illyrians or closely related group who settled in the Carpathians prior to Vlach migration.
Anyway, Vlachs are descendants of a fusion between Romans and native Balkanide people.
Closest natural living language to the Albanian, is the Balkanik romance.

Piro Ilir
26-12-19, 18:59
The J2b in South Asia isn't from any kind of Greek or European conquest, they belong to J2b-Z2432 and not J2b-L283. L283 and Z2432 shared a common ancestor ~9,600 years ago. J2b-Z2432 has been present in the region since at least the Early Bronze Age and arrived from around Iran, this has been proven by aDNA.

Haplogroup frequencies can change significantly due to many reasons. The vast majority of Balkan haplogroups have TMRCAs of around 2,000-1,500ybp due to bottlenecks which were likely caused by the drastic changes which were happening in the region during this time frame. Albanian J2b-L283 clades were also affected by this for the most part, with most clades seemingly having expanded from the north of Albania.

Placing importance on frequency is illogical. aDNA, diversity and basal clade diversity are most important.

Thank you for your info. Anyway, J2b2 L283 is still present there, right? Probably it has an Balkanik origin.

We should not overestimate this "founding efect" theory. So far we have only two bronze age haplotypes found in Balkans, at the areas where probably lived proto Illyrians, J2b2 and R1b Z2103. Today we find out that these two haplo are two from the three main Albanian haplos. The other most Albanian frequent haplo is Ev13, whose parent haplo is found at the Neolithic area which was later known as Illyria. Are all these coincidences !? It's kinda strange...

torzio
26-12-19, 19:41
Thank you for your info. Anyway, J2b2 L283 is still present there, right? Probably it has an Balkanik origin.

We should not overestimate this "founding efect" theory. So far we have only two bronze age haplotypes found in Balkans, at the areas where probably lived proto Illyrians, J2b2 and R1b Z2103. Today we find out that these two haplo are two from the three main Albanian haplos. The other most Albanian frequent haplo is Ev13, whose parent haplo is found at the Neolithic area which was later known as Illyria. Are all these coincidences !? It's kinda strange...

??

you have this in the balkans ( western side ) since the early bronze age

R1b1a1a2a2~Z2103.
G2a2a1 ...................the main ydna from period above
C1a2


I2a2 is more eastern balkans for same period as well as H2 and T1a

telsh
26-12-19, 22:47
Yes, my family were Gorale. (...) I was convinced this was the source of our PH1602 (...) Vlach migration.

Very interesting story, really.
I come from Romania and my final subclade is PH3514 - according to YSEQ. This is a subclade of PH1602, as it can be seen here (http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b2a1a1b1b1).
(http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b2a1a1b1b1It)It appears to have spread from the Balkans and it's probably related to a kind of mix Illyrians - Thracians - Vlachs.
Science will surely come up soon with new data as more people will do the tests.

Polska
27-12-19, 02:15
Very interesting story, really.
I come from Romania and my final subclade is PH3514 - according to YSEQ. This is a subclade of PH1602, as it can be seen here (http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b2a1a1b1b1).
(http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b2a1a1b1b1It)It appears to have spread from the Balkans and it's probably related to a kind of mix Illyrians - Thracians - Vlachs.
Science will surely come up soon with new data as more people will do the tests.
Agreed. Maybe you will join us on the YFull Tree sometime? Would be good to have a Romanian on there! I have a distant match from Ukraine who is now doing the BigY and eventually YFull analysis, so a Ukrainian should be on the tree soon. Also just added a Russian recently. PH502 I believe, downstream from PH1602.

torzio
27-12-19, 03:39
Very interesting story, really.
I come from Romania and my final subclade is PH3514 - according to YSEQ. This is a subclade of PH1602, as it can be seen here (http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b2a1a1b1b1).
(http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b2a1a1b1b1It)It appears to have spread from the Balkans and it's probably related to a kind of mix Illyrians - Thracians - Vlachs.
Science will surely come up soon with new data as more people will do the tests.

Well.....there must have been others as this sample was a 7 years old boy....cannot breed

Y-SNP analysis of I4331, J2b2a-L283, Bronze Age Croatia – Mathieson et al. 2018

https://j2-m172.info/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/02/I4331Tree-1-300x203.jpg (https://j2-m172.info/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/02/I47331Tree-1.jpg)I4331 position under J2b2a-L283

New DNA paper from Mathieson et al. 2018, The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25778), gave us ancient DNA data from 225 individuals who lived in southeastern Europe and surroundings. Supplementary information (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25778#supplementary-information) from the paper states one of the sites analyzed was the Veliki Vanik burial mound, which is located near the town of Vrgorac in Split-Dalmatia County, in southern Croatia. Individual I4331,dated 1631-1521 calBCE (~3591 ybp), was 5-7 year old subadult male with Y-DNA haplogroup J2b2a-L283. By analyzing the BAM file (raw data) (https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB22652), I have assigned him more specifically: J-CTS3617,Y15058(xZ40053,Z38241)
For spreadsheet of checked SNPs, see here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pJeiAQX5PleDhTznupb-TLW7xp1G9OD9_uy-gWmhiq4/edit?usp=sharing).
Observations



I4331 is likely fully developed J2b2a-CTS3617,Y15058, which according to YFull YTree v6.01, has a TMRCA of 4000 ybp (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15058/), and lived only ca. 400 years after its diversification. Therefore, this is the clearest evidence that the expansion of this sub-branch very likely happened in the same region he lived in (western Balkans).
Currently members from J-M241 project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/m-241/about) in the J-CTS3617,Y15058 sub-branch mainly come from the Balkans, central and northwestern Europe.
Along with I4331, there was an adult female in the same burial mound. Their genomes possess considerable amount of Steppe admixture and have mtDNA that has been found in the Steppe area. Combined with the fact that to date we have no J2b2a-L283 from Neolithic Europe, as well as other data, a Bronze Age (Indo-European) expansion is likely.

Krum
27-12-19, 10:23
[QUOTE = Polska; 593445] Имам интересна теория относно това как моята линия PH1602 може да се е навила в Южна Полша. Те са от село, наречено Слопнице, което е в планините Бескид в Южна Полша, близо до Словакия. Току-що четох за Бескидските планини днес. Единственото, което се открои, беше, че предполагаемият произход на името Бескид е или илирийски, или тракийски. Бескид е същото нещо като bjeshkëна албански. Проследих моята линия назад най-малко до 900 година в Южна Полша, но не и след това. Много от пробите на YFull YTree за PH1602 са от Сърбия, България и Босна (заедно с Германия, Русия и САЩ). Затова мисля, че е имало потенциално древна миграция на илири или на близки хора в Южна Полша от Балканите. Интересно ми е дали има исторически сведения за подобна миграция отдавна?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beskids

Също така открих тази връзка относно пуховската култура, която е била наблизо и е била повлияна от илирийската култура (преди около 2200 години):

https: //en.m.wikipedia .org / wiki / Púchov_culture (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Púchov_culture) [/ QUOTE]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessi

Kelmendasi
27-12-19, 21:00
Thank you for your info. Anyway, J2b2 L283 is still present there, right? Probably it has an Balkanik origin.

We should not overestimate this "founding efect" theory. So far we have only two bronze age haplotypes found in Balkans, at the areas where probably lived proto Illyrians, J2b2 and R1b Z2103. Today we find out that these two haplo are two from the three main Albanian haplos. The other most Albanian frequent haplo is Ev13, whose parent haplo is found at the Neolithic area which was later known as Illyria. Are all these coincidences !? It's kinda strange...
Well there are a couple L283+ samples from South Asia. There is a J2b-Y146401 sample from Kerala, India, on Yfull. It's clear his paternal ancestry is from the Balkans as there is an Albanian who is Y146400. Though L283 accounts for less than 1% of the J2b2 there as far as I know. ~99% (don't know the exact percentage) is Z2432.

There isn't a "founding effect theory", it is a fact that Balkan clades went through founder effects and bottlenecks. The vast majority of E-V13 present in Albanians is CTS1273+, the TMRCA and distribution of this clade suggests that it was involved with the expansion of IE speakers from Eastern Europe during the Bronze Age. And so, the E-V13 present in the Balkans today isn't from the Neolithic farmers of the region. The discovery of E-L618 in Dalmatia is only important because it tells us that V13 itself may have originated in the Balkans.

Trojet
28-12-19, 15:35
Well there are a couple L283+ samples from South Asia. There is a J2b-Y146401 sample from Kerala, India, on Yfull. It's clear his paternal ancestry is from the Balkans as there is an Albanian who is Y146400. Though L283 accounts for less than 1% of the J2b2 there as far as I know. ~99% (don't know the exact percentage) is Z2432.

Even the new J-Y146401 is actually with further origin from Syria, so J-L283 in India seems to be basically inexistent. However, I agree with you that this clade is most definitely of southern European origin considering the upstream Albanian sample and the diversity of the whole J-Z597 branch in the Balkans. J-Y146401 likely migrated to the Levant area during the Bronze Age collapse.

New development in regards to I4331, the BA ancient sample from southern Croatia:

Thanks to higher resolution tests (Big Y-700), it was discovered that SNP FT92472 is at J-Z38240 level. I4331 is FT92472+ and negative on SNPs for the two subclades. I couldn't find any shared SNPs with the Norwegian sample either, so I4331 is at YFull's J-Z38240*: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/

This is fascinating because he lived only 200 years after J-Z38240 TMRCA estimate, so J-Z38240 itself was very likely born in the same region. Among others, it solidifies the idea that the "Etruscan" J-CTS6190 is a migrant from accros the Adriatic.

Polska
28-12-19, 23:20
Even the new J-Y146401 is actually with further origin from Syria, so J-L283 in India seems to be basically inexistent. However, I agree with you that this clade is most definitely of southern European origin considering the upstream Albanian sample and the diversity of the whole J-Z597 branch in the Balkans. J-Y146401 likely migrated to the Levant area during the Bronze Age collapse.

New development in regards to I4331, the BA ancient sample from southern Croatia:

Thanks to higher resolution tests (Big Y-700), it was discovered that SNP FT92472 is at J-Z38240 level. I4331 is FT92472+ and negative on SNPs for the two subclades. I couldn't find any shared SNPs with the Norwegian sample either, so I4331 is at YFull's J-Z38240*: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/

This is fascinating because he lived only 200 years after J-Z38240 TMRCA estimate, so J-Z38240 itself was very likely born in the same region. Among others, it solidifies the idea that the "Etruscan" J-CTS6190 is a migrant from accros the Adriatic.

Thank you for the update on our Croatian cousin, Trojet!

Kelmendasi
29-12-19, 00:32
New development in regards to I4331, the BA ancient sample from southern Croatia:

Thanks to higher resolution tests (Big Y-700), it was discovered that SNP FT92472 is at J-Z38240 level. I4331 is FT92472+ and negative on SNPs for the two subclades. I couldn't find any shared SNPs with the Norwegian sample either, so I4331 is at YFull's J-Z38240*: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/

This is fascinating because he lived only 200 years after J-Z38240 TMRCA estimate, so J-Z38240 itself was very likely born in the same region. Among others, it solidifies the idea that the "Etruscan" J-CTS6190 is a migrant from accros the Adriatic.
Interesting how I4331 lived only 200 years after the TMRCA of his clade, this should mean that Z38240 did indeed originate around modern day Croatia. I wonder how Z38240* ended up in Northern Norway though, guess it has to do with the Romans or perhaps something earlier.

Dema
31-12-19, 13:22
Always enjoyed reading your posts, as well as those from Trojet, Dibran, and Aspurg. Good source of information on L283 for me.

I can’t believe given the advancements in the phylogenetic tree, people still believe Alexander the Great spread J2b M241 to Iran or that J2b L283 originated in the Middle East. Takes 30 seconds to login to YFull and look at the YTree. It’s an overwhelmingly European haplogroup (L283) with only a few samples total outside of Europe.

I am always for rational conversation.
This clown is luckily banned, and we wont have to bother with his Alexander the Great M241 in India and similar stupidity anymore. Especially since he is throwing theories like selling vegetables on bazaar but then he is afraid to test himself.


Anyways, For me it was really puzzling that both Europeans and Indians share M241 SNP, i was always wondering did M241 originate in Caucasus and then spread to India with Indo-Europeans like Sanskrit speakers and Iranians or its actually some Zagros Native (same what i claim for J2-M205). As we know 99 % of people are pushing Caucasus theory but i think this theory is fish on a dry. Many people are saying that J2b has origin in Caucasus. But this does not hold water anymore.

Narasimhan et al ancient J2b-M241 samples are yet oldest M241 ancient samples found and they belong to Pre-IE cultures. Also as i understood the research, even tho i have to read it few more times because there is so much material and i really didn't pay much attention. But as i understood Indian M241 is more connected to the pre-IE populations as Dravidians in the south and not more recent IE arrivals like Sanskrit speakers.

Basically what this means is that closest brother of J2b2-L283, which is J2b2-Z2432 and btw much older brother since it has 3000 years higher TMRCA, is native for East Zagros, Iran, and India, and is of pre-IE origin.

On the west side of Zagros there is J-Z2453, its brother clade of European J-L283 and Indian J-Z2432 and it has higher TMRCA and diversity then Indian and European subclades together, formed 13800 ybp, TMRCA 13500 ybp.
Its exclusively Middle Eastern subclade of J2b2, and its more diverse then Indian and European J2b2 together even tho Indian is more diverse then European L283 younger one.

Also first brother clade of J2-M241 is J2-M205, with TMRCA around 6000 years and Middle Eastern Fertile Crescent expansion and probably same as M241 is of Late Paleolithic and Early Mesolithic origin from Zagros mountains.

Also some people are trying to connect J2b-M241 or J2b-M205 to Iranians which is funny to me. In Iran there was major study, only about 1 % of Iranians are J2b-M241, and most of these fall into Afro-Iranian ethnic group, meaning they are probably some separated clade that spread among Iranian black Africans.

Also J2-M205 is around 1 % in Iran, which is usual percentage for J2-M205, but the deal is that majority of these are Iranian Amenians and we know that we have one Armenian cluster into very exclusive Bronze Age Fertile Crescent Middle Eastern J2-M205.

I would also like to add that Caucasus and East Anatolia were heavily tested for ancient DNA, and few of J2 samples were all J2a-M410. The only J2b-M12* sample so brotherclade of M241 and M205 is found in center of Zagros mountains in first world farmers 10000 BCE. Probably of earlier Zagros hunter-gatherer origin.

So by all given facts by now, East Zagros and Indian J2-M241 is of pre-IE origin and is probably Zagros native. J2-M205 is of same hunter gatherer / first farmers Zagros origin but its MRCA expanded in Middle East Bronze Age. And J-Z2453 from Middle East found west of Zagros is of same origin.


By this J2-L283 is Zagros expansion to Caucasus, where he (TMRCA 5500 ybp) probably become some native north Caucasian population and then it was picked up by R1b tribes from oldest IE cultures and with them as IE expanded to Bronze Age Europe.

Migration from Zagros to Caucasus probably took place somewhere around 6000-8000 years ago giving that L283 TMRCA is 5500 ybp and his closest relatives are all around Zagros mountains and virtually none existent in Caucasus


If i made any mistake anywhere which is possible please anyone correct me, i typed this only for the sake of further debate.


Here is table with Narasimhan ancient DNA and many more of them - https://science.sciencemag.org/highwire/filestream/731308/field_highwire_adjunct_files/1/aat7487_Tables1-5.xlsx

Can we confirm that oldest J2b-M241 samples from this research belongs to pre-IE culture ?

Dema
31-12-19, 14:12
Something like this:

Also note that oldest and only J2b-M12* ancient DNA is found in center of this circle, its 10 000 years old.



https://imgur.com/RuzPVi4https://imgur.com/RuzPVi4.jpg

Polska
01-01-20, 21:56
Something like this:

Also note that oldest and only J2b-M12* ancient DNA is found in center of this circle, its 10 000 years old.



https://imgur.com/RuzPVi4https://imgur.com/RuzPVi4.jpg


Yes, I agree with your map. Of course I’m just parroting what others, who are better versed than me on this subject, have been saying for years. I think it’s worth noting that Maciamo Hay, who started this site, long ago postulated that J2b M205 came from the Zagros area and that J2b L283 spread to Europe via the Caucasus Mtns and the Steppe with the Indo European westward migrations. It’s all part of his article on J2 here on Eupedia. He was way ahead of just about everyone. It’s one of the reasons I like this site and this forum.

Dema
04-01-20, 14:52
Yes, I agree with your map. Of course I’m just parroting what others, who are better versed than me on this subject, have been saying for years. I think it’s worth noting that Maciamo Hay, who started this site, long ago postulated that J2b M205 came from the Zagros area and that J2b L283 spread to Europe via the Caucasus Mtns and the Steppe with the Indo European westward migrations. It’s all part of his article on J2 here on Eupedia. He was way ahead of just about everyone. It’s one of the reasons I like this site and this forum.


Well yes, regarding Maciamo, he was probably the first person who in details tried to explain all haplogroups and their sublcades.
I have exceptional respect for his work and courage to try to connect and explain all these genetical dots.
Many people maybe detected some mistake or wrong theory of Maciamo somewhere, and they were first to criticise but then none of them tried or dared to do such a enormous work and explanation for all these possibilities.

Maciamo was for sure right when he connected L283 to Indo-European expansion while others were in that time connecting E-v13 and J2b-L283 to Neolithic Europe.
However, many of Maciamo texts are outdated and need to be additionally worked on. I hope that Maciamo is well and that he will continue to update his articles and his work regarding Y-DNA exploration. Also he often kinda gives possibility to more then one theory.

You are right Maciamo said it here:


"No Neolithic sample from Central or South Asia has been tested to date, but the present geographic distribution of haplogroup J2 suggests that it could initially have dispersed during the Neolithic from the Zagros mountains and northern Mesopotamia across the Iranian plateau to South Asia and Central Asia, and across the Caucasus to Russia (Volga-Ural). The first expansion probably correlated with the diffusion of domesticated of cattle and goats (starting c. 8000-9000 BCE), rather than with the development of cereal agriculture in the Levant."


However, here he speaks about J2, J2-M172 (J2a + J2b), what Maciamo says here is that J2-M172 is entirely from Zagros. I have to admit i didn't explore J2a enough to make a decent opinion. Also J1 haplogroup. There is possibility that when GHIJK haplogroup diversified that J1 and J2a were dominant in Caucasus while J2b was more dominant more south in Zagros mountains.
There were both Neolithic J1 and J2a samples found in Caucasus, but also J2a in ancient Zagros, and these haplogroups are found in decent percentages in modern Caucasus population, in contrast to J2b which seems to be Zagros expansion. Then further in J2 text Maciamo debates about Caucasus J2a TMRCA and that it all might be recent arrival from Zagros mountains, and i will investigate this in future but for now i dont have enough material to comment on it. Also Maciamo in his J2 text makes many Kura-Araxes hypothesis, but i am not sure that any of these Kura-Araxes theories were actually proven.

Also he mixes J2b1 and J2b2 entire time, as many of threads and people in Eupedia did for years. In J2b-L283 text the J2b1 is mentioned entire time even tho their migration path is different since probably 10 000 years ago.


The vast majority of J2b lineages belong to J2b2 and its subclades. While J2b* and J2b1 lineages are mostly restricted to the Caucasus, eastern Anatolia and the Balkans, J2b2 is found throughout Europe, in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, in Central Asia and in South Asia, particularly in India. Although J2b2 itself was formed 14,000 years ago, almost all European J2b2 members belong to the L283 branch and share a common patrilineal ancestor who lived 6,000 years ago. What's more, 99% of them fall under the Z628 (aka Z597) clade, with a shared common ancestor who lived only 4,500 years ago. This Z628 clade is also found in India, Armenia and the Levant, among others.

J2b1 mentioned here is for sure not restricted to the Caucasus neither eastern Anatolia but its so to say none-existent in Caucasus and eastern Anatolia, it can barely be found in Caucasus and Anatolia but rather as already concluded long ago, it had exclusive Bronze Age Middle Eastern Fertile Crescent expansion. (https://j2-m172.info/2016/10/possibly-j2b1-m205-basal-structure-defined-cts1969-cts5338-yp13-ph4306-ph1089-y22066/)

Indians mentioned here under Z628 are probably European expansion giving that they share TMRCA of 3200 ybp with Europeans like Albanians, they could indeed be from Alexander the Great army : ) Also their closest brother clades are in Brasil and Colombia which could indicate European expansion to American continent.



The most likely hypothesis is that J2b2a1 (L283) penetrated into the Pontic Steppe region during the Neolithic or Chalcolithic period, by crossing the Caucasus from western Iran, then migrated to the Volga-Ural region, where it was absorbed by the R1a-Z93 (https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml) tribes in the Early Bronze Age. As a minor lineage within the R1a-Z93 dominant populations, it would have expanded from the Volga-Ural region to Central and South Asia with the Indo-Aryan invasions (https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Indo-Iranian) approximately from 4,300 to 3,500 years ago. Other J2b lineages could have ended up in the Balkans during a number of Steppe invasions from the Bronze Age until the Middle Ages (https://www.eupedia.com/history/5000_years_of_steppe_migrations_into_europe.shtml) .




I agree with this just what in the world made Maciamo conclude that J2b-L283 expanded to Europe with R1a-Z93 tribes ? After crossing Caucasus from Zagros mountains J2b2-L283 most likely spread to Europe with R1b tribes. There are strong indications that J2b2-L283 spread with R1b Bronze Age Indo-European tribes.

Furthermore they for sure didnt cross from "western Iran" as Maciamo says, simply because Iran didnt exist back then. I understand that he is talking about modern Iranian territory but that is whole another thing. Actually best would be to use term Zagros mountains, since its obvious that this mountain is what we are talking about.

Also I agree with Bronze Age J2b-L283 migration but Middle Ages ? I dont believe this. TMRCA, diversification, and Bronze Age Dalmatian ancient DNA of L283 clearly indicate Bronze Age expansion.



Another conceivable possibility is that a minority of J2b2-L283 accompanied R1b-M269 from the Caucasus region and migrated to the Volga-Ural region in the early Bronze Age, propagating with them the Proto-Indo-European language and bronze technology to the Caspian steppe before the expansion of this new culture to Central and South Asia. The drawback of this hypothesis is that it doesn't explain why R1b lineages strongly outnumber J2b2 in Europe but not in South Asia.

This is the correct theory regarding L283 and its IE expansion to Europe. While South Asian J2b2-Z2432 is formed 9700 ybp, meaning they are distant to European J2b2-L283 9700 years, and that South-Asian J2b2-Z2432 is of Pre-IE origin like Dravidians. While Indian IE speakers are R1a.



Both J2b1 and J2b2-L283 are also found at high frequency in Greece and in regions that used to be part of the ancient Greek world (Ionia, Magna Graecia). However they are almost absent from Crete (where J2a1 lineages are dominant). J2b was also not found among Neolithic Anatolian or European farmers, and is absent from central Anatolia. This suggests that J2b was not associated with the Neolithic Greeks nor with the Minoan civilisation, but may well have come to Greece with the Mycenaeans, who also appear to have been pushed out of the Steppe by the advance of the Srubna culture. As a result, both the Illyrians and the Mycenaeans (and possibly the Albanians) would be descended from Middle to Late Bronze Age Steppe migrants to the Southeast Europe, in a migration that was particularly rich in J2b lineages from the Middle Volga region. That would explain why it has been so hard to identify R1a or R1b lineages that could be of Illyrian or Mycenaean origin. The only variety of R1b that is found at reasonably high frequencies in Southeast Europe, and particularly in Greece, is R1b-Z2103 (https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#Greco-Anatolian), the branch found in the eastern Yamna culture, including the Volga-Ural region.



I agree with almost everything said here, and this theory sounds most plausible to me. Also i agree that J2b-L283 was most likely spread to Europe after joining with Yamna R1b-Z2103 tribes. However Maciamo again mentions J2b1 here under L283 text. J2b1 has formed date 16 000 years and had completely other migration route. J2b1 expanded in Bronze Age Middle East and expanded to Europe thru Phoenicians, Canaanites and Roman Empire, while J2b-L283 with Bronze Age Indo-Europeans.




Regarding J2b1:


J2b1's origins remain unclear, but it probably originated in the South Caucasus and/or Iran and might have spread to the Levant, Cyprus and Greece with the Kura-Araxes culture during the Bronze Age. The branch found in the western Balkans (Y22069) is distinct from the East Mediterranean and Caucasian branch. It seems to have formed 6,000 years ago, but its TMRCA is very young at 900 years before present, suggesting a medieval founder effect.

J2b1 originated just as all J2b most likely in Zagros mountains where oldest and only J2b* ancient DNA was found.
Again, J2b1 did not originate in Iran because Iran did not exist back then. Oldest J2b* ancient DNA is found in Zagros mountains and about the same distance and very close either to Baghdad in west or Tehran in east. In Iran as mentioned above J2b2 is almost none existent and the 1 % there seems to go mostly into group spread among Iranian Africans. While J2-M205 in Iran is mostly found among Iranian Armenians. Really neither J2b-L283 neither J2b-M205 cannot be connected to Iranian people but rather to Zagros mountains which is only partially part of modern western Iran and that is the only reason why Iran is mentioned.

Also this text about J2b1 is really old and outdated now. Maciamo says Y22069 in Balkans is distinct from East Mediterranean and Caucasian branches. Maciamo based this theory upon outdated and wrong Yfull tree, where Balkan Y22069 was wrongly positioned in Yfull, just the same as it is wrongly positioned in main Eupedia J2 phylogenetic tree as it can be seen in article.

With Yfull update Y22069 was confirmed PF7321+, CTS1969+, YP51+, and Y22075+
These are all major SNP that Y22069 shares with Middle Easterners like Palestinians where biggest diversity of CTS1969 is found atm.

Balkan Y22059 shares most of these SNP also with French, Italian, and Spanish samples. But also Greek and Albanian ones like CTS1969 SNP.

Italian, Spanish and French samples share PF7321+, CTS1969+, YP51+, and Y22075+ SNPs with Balkan and Palestine and other Middle Eastern nations like Qatar, Jordan, and so on. And other Mediterranean populations like Greeks are yet to be uploaded to Yfull but most likely they are also CTS1969. So Balkan Y22059 is not more distant or different then any other Mediterranean J2-M205.

Dema
04-01-20, 15:10
Something like this:

Also note that oldest and only J2b-M12* ancient DNA is found in center of this circle, its 10 000 years old.



https://imgur.com/RuzPVi4https://imgur.com/RuzPVi4.jpg


About this map is important to note that few of these subclades are closer one to another. They are distant 10 000 to 16 000 years one from another actually.

European L283 and Indian Z2432 have TMRCA 9700 ybp. European L283, Indian Z2432 and Middle Eastern Z2453 have TMRCA 13800 YBP.
And European L283, Indian Z2432, Middle Eastern Z2453, and Middle Eastern M205 have TMRCA 15800 ybp.

So by formed date none of this subclades is closer one to another then 9700 years going by Yfull L283 formed date. So Indian and European clades are closest with difference 9700 years, their MRCA was most likely Zagros mountaineer where one of his descendant tribes expanded north (L283), and one south (Z2432) most early 9700 years ago.

Trojet
04-01-20, 17:25
Something like this:
Also note that oldest and only J2b-M12* ancient DNA is found in center of this circle, its 10 000 years old.
https://imgur.com/RuzPVi4https://imgur.com/RuzPVi4.jpg
I generally agree with this map, but I don't think J-L283 was that far north. IMO, it likely migrated around the northern shores of the Black Sea. As previously reported here, the new Armenian J-L283* is actually negative for ~7 SNPs at current J-L283 level, so the split with the European branches, and the TMRCA of J-L283, should be around 6000 ybp. This makes it very likely that it migrated to Europe sometime after 6000 ybp, but no later than 4400 ybp (J-Z597 TMRCA). And it's possible that it expanded into the Balkans/Italy independently from an R1b clade, perhaps even preceding it. To me the J-Z600 branch, and more specifically J-Z597, seems pretty Western Balkan/Adriatic, so it was probably already in the region at the time of its TMRCA. Some argue that YFull ages can be around 15% underestimated, under which scenario the J-Z597 TMRCA should be ~5000 ybp. These Early Bronze Age Tumuli from Montenegro are very interesting. I hope they can eventually get aDNA. If not some R1b-M269 clade, J-L283 (J-Z597?) would be my next best guess: http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2015/09/mala-i-velika-gruda-tumuluses.html?m=1

Dema
04-01-20, 18:29
I generally agree with this map, but I don't think J-L283 was that far north. IMO, it likely migrated around the northern shores of the Black Sea. As previously reported here, the new Armenian J-L283* is actually negative for ~ 7 SNPs at current J-L283 level, so the split with the European branches, and the TMRCA of J-L283, should be around 6000 ybp. This makes it very likely that it migrated to Europe sometime after 6000 ybp, but no later than 4400 ybp (J-Z597 TMRCA). And it's possible that it expanded into the Balkans/Italy independently from an R1b clade, perhaps even preceding it. To me the J-Z600 branch, and more specifically J-Z597, seems pretty Western Balkan/Adriatic, so it was probably already in the area at the time of its TMRCA. Some argue that YFull ages can be around 15% underestimated, under which scenario the J-Z597 TMRCA should be ~5000 ybp. These Early Bronze Age Tumuli from Montenegro are very interesting. I hope they can eventually get aDNA. If not some R1b-M269 clade, J-L283 (J-Z597?) would be my next best guess: http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2015/09/mala-i-velika-gruda-tumuluses.html?m=1


Thank you Trojet! You are right, i have just made lines without any precision.
Here i redone it only for J2-L283, i hope this is probably more realistic.

https://imgur.com/JLC62cm.jpg

Dema
04-01-20, 22:02
This just reminded me of that tool that people were hyping not long ago, the Phylogeographer, somehow it calculates that L283 went strait from West Middle East to Anatolia and to Europe which would be Neolithic farmer route. There is no need to say that this is completely wrong. In 8000 BCE this specific part where J-M241 is shown was dominated by E1b tribes, probably by first time leaving Africa and conquering Middle East. E1b-V13 is probably their expansion giving that Natufians are oldest out of Africa E1b found. Furthermore West Middle East was dominated by E1b and T1 tribes since Neolithic to Bronze Age where J1 and J2 seems to conquer the territory from direction of Zagros mountains in time of Early Bronze Age or a bit earlier. This can easily be seen by checking the ancient DNA in this zone.

Phylogeographer on J-L283:


https://imgur.com/aySiZPshttps://imgur.com/aySiZPs.jpg

Aspurg
04-01-20, 22:50
E1b-V13 is probably their expansion giving that Natufians are oldest out of Africa E1b found. Furthermore West Middle East was dominated by E1b and T1 tribes since Neolithic to Bronze Age where J1 and J2 seems to conquer the territory from direction of Zagros mountains in time of Early Bronze Age or a bit earlier. This can easily be seen by checking the ancient DNA in this zone.

Phylogeographer on J-L283:



No, Natufians were not earliest E1b1b's out of Africa, Iberomaurusians already had stronger Eurasian than "Ancestral North African". So E1b1b must have been wandering around the Middle East before that. Also because Iranians have E-M215+, M35- that is unrelated to Somalian (of Arabian origins) E-V16!! If Iranian is V16+ then V16 is not African at all.

Phylogeographer generally is of little use.

Polska
04-01-20, 23:50
I generally agree with this map, but I don't think J-L283 was that far north. IMO, it likely migrated around the northern shores of the Black Sea. As previously reported here, the new Armenian J-L283* is actually negative for ~7 SNPs at current J-L283 level, so the split with the European branches, and the TMRCA of J-L283, should be around 6000 ybp. This makes it very likely that it migrated to Europe sometime after 6000 ybp, but no later than 4400 ybp (J-Z597 TMRCA). And it's possible that it expanded into the Balkans/Italy independently from an R1b clade, perhaps even preceding it. To me the J-Z600 branch, and more specifically J-Z597, seems pretty Western Balkan/Adriatic, so it was probably already in the region at the time of its TMRCA. Some argue that YFull ages can be around 15% underestimated, under which scenario the J-Z597 TMRCA should be ~5000 ybp. These Early Bronze Age Tumuli from Montenegro are very interesting. I hope they can eventually get aDNA. If not some R1b-M269 clade, J-L283 (J-Z597?) would be my next best guess: http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2015/09/mala-i-velika-gruda-tumuluses.html?m=1

The link you’ve provided is very interesting to me, especially the part regarding the silver axe. My family is many generations (120 years) separated from life in the Carpathian Mountains in Poland (we’re all from Arizona), but everyone still displays the CIUPAGA (pronounced CHOO-PAGA) in their homes. We usually have them mounted on the wall as a reminder of our roots in the mountains of Poland. These ciupagas are very similar to the silver axe mentioned in your link.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepherd's_axe

Dema
08-03-20, 14:57
No, Natufians were not earliest E1b1b's out of Africa, Iberomaurusians already had stronger Eurasian than "Ancestral North African". So E1b1b must have been wandering around the Middle East before that. Also because Iranians have E-M215+, M35- that is unrelated to Somalian (of Arabian origins) E-V16!! If Iranian is V16+ then V16 is not African at all.

Phylogeographer generally is of little use.


I'm sorry for late reply. As far as i know Natufians are earliest out of Africa E1b found. In Western Middle East 12000 - 10000 ybp.
Oldest city in the world Jericho was probably dominated with E1b and T1 tribes.

However, looking by ancient DNA, J-M304 seems to conquer the territory from direction of Zagros mountains in Early Bronze Age, or a bit earlier.

Therefore possibly pushing E1b and T1 further to Anatolia and Europe, but also intermixing with them with J-M304 becoming major line since Bronze Age.

Iberomaurusians, probably as other Northwestern African wings were in that time also colonising Europe from Iberia. In Iberia we have oldest European Neolithic E1b>L618 sample. Therefore its possible that E-v13 is either Iberomaurusian and expanded thru Iberia, or either Natufian and Jericho remains that moved to Europe thru Anatolia.

By all evidences L618, settled Europe somewhere in late Neolithic but it was minor line. Until specific part of L618, more specifically v13 joined with Indo Europeans and had successful expansion. Probably wiping out other pre-BA natives, together with his other L618 relatives. Therefore, out of entire L618, only one part (TMRCA 4900 ybp) of E-v13 managed to survive. And few isolated samples like L618+ and v13- in Sardinia and Albania.

Also regarding Fertile Crescent, there is possibility that Sumerians were E1b and T1 dominant, while their conquerors Akkadians were J-M304 dominant.

J-M304 when separated from GHIJK haplogroup, it was most likely spread from Caucasus to Zagros and surrounding areas.

torzio
08-03-20, 19:27
I'm sorry for late reply. As far as i know Natufians are earliest out of Africa E1b found. In Western Middle East 12000 - 10000 ybp.
Oldest city in the world Jericho was probably dominated with E1b and T1 tribes.

However, looking by ancient DNA, J-M304 seems to conquer the territory from direction of Zagros mountains in Early Bronze Age, or a bit earlier.

Therefore possibly pushing E1b and T1 further to Anatolia and Europe, but also intermixing with them with J-M304 becoming major line since Bronze Age.

Iberomaurusians, probably as other Northwestern African wings were in that time also colonising Europe from Iberia. In Iberia we have oldest European Neolithic E1b>L618 sample. Therefore its possible that E-v13 is either Iberomaurusian and expanded thru Iberia, or either Natufian and Jericho remains that moved to Europe thru Anatolia.

By all evidences L618, settled Europe somewhere in late Neolithic but it was minor line. Until specific part of L618, more specifically v13 joined with Indo Europeans and had successful expansion. Probably wiping out other pre-BA natives, together with his other L618 relatives. Therefore, out of entire L618, only one part (TMRCA 4900 ybp) of E-v13 managed to survive. And few isolated samples like L618+ and v13- in Sardinia and Albania.

Also regarding Fertile Crescent, there is possibility that Sumerians were E1b and T1 dominant, while their conquerors Akkadians were J-M304 dominant.

J-M304 when separated from GHIJK haplogroup, it was most likely spread from Caucasus to Zagros and surrounding areas.

you forgot Haplogroup L
Every T ydna person has Haploroup LT snp's ( 100% )..........so wherever you think of the beginning of any T , you must also think about haplgroup L .
and also, before haploroup LT ....they where all under haplgroup K-M9

Most likely scenario for the L and T split would be somewhere near the caspian sea...............my guess is South Central Asia, Turkmenistan or northern Iran area

The only haplogroup out of Africa would be E and C ...............but they are also found in neolithic samples in ancient europe and asia

Dema
11-03-20, 11:37
you forgot Haplogroup L
Every T ydna person has Haploroup LT snp's ( 100% )..........so wherever you think of the beginning of any T , you must also think about haplgroup L .
and also, before haploroup LT ....they where all under haplgroup K-M9, Most likely scenario for the L and T split would be somewhere near the caspian sea...............my guess is South Central Asia, Turkmenistan or northern Iran area

There was no haplogroup L found together with T. And even if they were, there is no connection as L and T split 42600 years ago according to Yfull.
Since this split was so early, there is no wonder they are not related and neither shared same migrations. At least not probably in last 30 000 years. L and T probably colived together 40000 - 30000 years ago.




The only haplogroup out of Africa would be E and C ...............but they are also found in neolithic samples in ancient europe and asia

All haplogroups are out of Africa, but in different period and migration waves, look here: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_haplogroups_timeline.shtml




Also i would like to add that Western Middle East in Neolithic and Epipaleolithic was dominated by E1b tribes. Then in Chalcolithic, it seems T1 tribes conquered the territory and become dominant. And finally in Early Bronze Age there is domination and appearance of J1 and J2 (J-M304) tribes.

Partial reference : https://indo-european.eu/2018/08/migrations-in-the-levant-region-during-the-chalcolithic-also-marked-by-distinct-y-dna/



However, some final aDNA tests are needed to finalise this story. Like ancient sites in Iraq.

torzio
11-03-20, 17:57
There was no haplogroup L found together with T. And even if they were, there is no connection as L and T split 42600 years ago according to Yfull.
Since this split was so early, there is no wonder they are not related and neither shared same migrations. At least not probably in last 30 000 years. L and T probably colived together 40000 - 30000 years ago.




All haplogroups are out of Africa, but in different period and migration waves, look here: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_haplogroups_timeline.shtml




Also i would like to add that Western Middle East in Neolithic and Epipaleolithic was dominated by E1b tribes. Then in Chalcolithic, it seems T1 tribes conquered the territory and become dominant. And finally in Early Bronze Age there is domination and appearance of J1 and J2 (J-M304) tribes.

Partial reference : https://indo-european.eu/2018/08/migrations-in-the-levant-region-during-the-chalcolithic-also-marked-by-distinct-y-dna/



However, some final aDNA tests are needed to finalise this story. Like ancient sites in Iraq.

when haplogroup IJ split into I , J1 and J2 is when haplogroup LT formed ( same time ) from haplogroup K-M9, so the J haplogroups where already in motion in the "middleast" and dominating the area with E and C
the link in regards to Chalcolithic has already been discussed and their origins is Kura-Araxes area
the Dominating haplogroup in the Middle east seems to be J1 , then J2 then the E and C , then came T and L ( into the levant )

Since IJ split and I entered Europe , I can see J also entering Europe with haplo I .............so, any J discussion for Europe should be older in time

Dema
12-03-20, 02:40
when haplogroup IJ split into I , J1 and J2 is when haplogroup LT formed ( same time ) from haplogroup K-M9, so the J haplogroups where already in motion in the "middleast" and dominating the area with E and C

Not really, i think you should go back to the drawing board : )
As i told you in Neolithic E1b was dominating with no T or J, then in Chalcolithic T was dominant with some E but still no J. And finally in Bronze Age J was dominating with some E and T. If you checked ancient DNA, which was my main source of bringing out these opinions you would understand it also. Or actually read the link i posted.

Where do you see haplogroup J here ? or even T? This one sample of T but its negative to T1a1 which was later found in Chalcolithic.


Epipaleolithic and Neolithic:



11840-9760 BCE
Raqefet Cave
Israel
E1b1


11840-9760 BCE
Raqefet Cave
Israel
CT


11840-9760 BCE
Raqefet Cave
Israel
CT


11840-9760 BCE
Raqefet Cave
Israel
E1b1b1b2


11840-9760 BCE
Raqefet Cave
Israel
E1b1b1b2


8300-7900 BCE
'Ain Ghazal
Jordan
CT(xE,G,J,LT,R,Q1a,Q1b)


8300-7900 BCE
'Ain Ghazal
Jordan
CT


8300-7900 BCE
'Ain Ghazal
Jordan
E1b1b1b2








8197-7653 calBCE (8790±50 BP, Poz-81101,
'Ain Ghazal
Jordan
E1b1b1


7940-7600 calBCE [7938-7580 calBCE











7722-7541 calBCE (8590±50 BP, Poz-81097)
'Ain Ghazal
Jordan
T(xT1a1,T1a2a)


7733-7526 calBCE (8580±60 BP, Poz-81098)
'Ain Ghazal
Jordan
E1b1b1a










Chalcolithic:
https://imgur.com/KZUAwYm.jpg




the link in regards to Chalcolithic has already been discussed and their origins is Kura-Araxes area
Did they test Kura-Araxes? No? Then Kura-Araxes remains unknown until tested. Its possible that T1 from Chalcolithic arrives from Kura, but that is only a theory while things im saying here are actually facts based on already tested ancient sites.



the Dominating haplogroup in the Middle east seems to be J1 , then J2 then the E and C , then came T and L ( into the levant )

Since IJ split and I entered Europe , I can see J also entering Europe with haplo I .............so, any J discussion for Europe should be older in time

That is true for modern people, but when looking at ancient DNA both J1 and J2 appear together in Early Bronze Age, therefore we can say that J-M304 (J1 + J2) brotherhood arrived together in same time even tho in various subclades like J1, J2a or J2b.

Pretty much all sites that yielded Neolithic E1b or Chalcolithic T1a, in Early Bronze Age were J1 or J2.

Bronze Age:

I1705 J1(xJ1a) Jordan_EBA
I1730 J(xJ1,J2a,J2b2a) Jordan_EBA

+ both Bronze Age Canaanite graves in Lebanon were J1 and J2 = J-M304


Thats why i said that pred-Semitic Sumerians were likely E1b and T1 dominant, while their conquerors Akkadians were likely J-M304.

However Sumerians and ancient sites in Iraq are not tested for aDNA and this just remains mystery. Also rivers Euphrates and Tigris are very close to where actually Zagros Neolithic J samples were found, so everything is possible. We will see in future.

torzio
12-03-20, 06:26
Not really, i think you should go back to the drawing board : )
As i told you in Neolithic E1b was dominating with no T or J, then in Chalcolithic T was dominant with some E but still no J. And finally in Bronze Age J was dominating with some E and T. If you checked ancient DNA, which was my main source of bringing out these opinions you would understand it also. Or actually read the link i posted.

Where do you see haplogroup J here ? or even T? This one sample of T but its negative to T1a1 which was later found in Chalcolithic.


Epipaleolithic and Neolithic:



11840-9760 BCE
Raqefet Cave
Israel
E1b1


11840-9760 BCE
Raqefet Cave
Israel
CT


11840-9760 BCE
Raqefet Cave
Israel
CT


11840-9760 BCE
Raqefet Cave
Israel
E1b1b1b2


11840-9760 BCE
Raqefet Cave
Israel
E1b1b1b2


8300-7900 BCE
'Ain Ghazal
Jordan
CT(xE,G,J,LT,R,Q1a,Q1b)


8300-7900 BCE
'Ain Ghazal
Jordan
CT


8300-7900 BCE
'Ain Ghazal
Jordan
E1b1b1b2








8197-7653 calBCE (8790±50 BP, Poz-81101,
'Ain Ghazal
Jordan
E1b1b1


7940-7600 calBCE [7938-7580 calBCE











7722-7541 calBCE (8590±50 BP, Poz-81097)
'Ain Ghazal
Jordan
T(xT1a1,T1a2a)


7733-7526 calBCE (8580±60 BP, Poz-81098)
'Ain Ghazal
Jordan
E1b1b1a










Chalcolithic:
https://imgur.com/KZUAwYm.jpg



Did they test Kura-Araxes? No? Then Kura-Araxes remains unknown until tested. Its possible that T1 from Chalcolithic arrives from Kura, but that is only a theory while things im saying here are actually facts based on already tested ancient sites.



That is true for modern people, but when looking at ancient DNA both J1 and J2 appear together in Early Bronze Age, therefore we can say that J-M304 (J1 + J2) brotherhood arrived together in same time even tho in various subclades like J1, J2a or J2b.

Pretty much all sites that yielded Neolithic E1b or Chalcolithic T1a, in Early Bronze Age were J1 or J2.

Bronze Age:

I1705 J1(xJ1a) Jordan_EBA
I1730 J(xJ1,J2a,J2b2a) Jordan_EBA

+ both Bronze Age Canaanite graves in Lebanon were J1 and J2 = J-M304


Thats why i said that pred-Semitic Sumerians were likely E1b and T1 dominant, while their conquerors Akkadians were likely J-M304.

However Sumerians and ancient sites in Iraq are not tested for aDNA and this just remains mystery. Also rivers Euphrates and Tigris are very close to where actually Zagros Neolithic J samples were found, so everything is possible. We will see in future.

Can you forget about the Calcolithic T in the levant .....they came and departed from that area and none are there now , they all are gone .....they all belong to the T-CTS2214 ( all 100% of them ) same marker we have in ancient samples in iberia and coastal Morocco ...here are some of the samples ( I can give you all if you like )

Peqi'in Cave ( 6150 yBP - Late Chalcolithic )


I1155
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-CTS2214/)
mtDNA: K1a
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 0.09
Other IDs: CHPK021 / S1155.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ (ftp://ftp.sra.ebi.ac.uk/vol1/fastq/ERR274/007/ERR2744337/ERR2744337.fastq.gz) / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) (https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/ERS2663507) / BAM (ftp://ftp.sra.ebi.ac.uk/vol1/run/ERR274/ERR2744337/I1155.1240K.bam)

I1160
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-CTS2214/)
mtDNA: N1a1b
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 308
Other IDs: CHPKL101B-005, CHPKL101B-011 / S1160.E1.L1, S1161.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ (ftp://ftp.sra.ebi.ac.uk/vol1/fastq/ERR274/001/ERR2744351/ERR2744351.fastq.gz) / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) (https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/ERS2663521) / BAM (ftp://ftp.sra.ebi.ac.uk/vol1/run/ERR274/ERR2744351/I1160.1240K.bam)

I1165
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-CTS2214/)
mtDNA: HV1a’b’c’
Sample: Petrous

They are all ( 100% ) CTS2214 in SNP

The detailed paper stated they came into the levant from the North ( eastern Anatolia )

lets move on ...........the J1 came via sumerians in the upper parts of the persian gulf......or what they call "Arab marshes"

The issued I want to speak about is the split between IJ ...............we all know about E and C

Dema
12-03-20, 12:36
Can you forget about the Calcolithic T in the levant .....they came and departed from that area and none are there now , they all are gone .....they all belong to the T-CTS2214 ( all 100% of them ) same marker we have in ancient samples in iberia and coastal Morocco ...here are some of the samples ( I can give you all if you like )

Peqi'in Cave ( 6150 yBP - Late Chalcolithic )


I1155
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-CTS2214/)
mtDNA: K1a
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 0.09
Other IDs: CHPK021 / S1155.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ (ftp://ftp.sra.ebi.ac.uk/vol1/fastq/ERR274/007/ERR2744337/ERR2744337.fastq.gz) / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) (https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/ERS2663507) / BAM (ftp://ftp.sra.ebi.ac.uk/vol1/run/ERR274/ERR2744337/I1155.1240K.bam)

I1160
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-CTS2214/)
mtDNA: N1a1b
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 308
Other IDs: CHPKL101B-005, CHPKL101B-011 / S1160.E1.L1, S1161.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ (ftp://ftp.sra.ebi.ac.uk/vol1/fastq/ERR274/001/ERR2744351/ERR2744351.fastq.gz) / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) (https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/ERS2663521) / BAM (ftp://ftp.sra.ebi.ac.uk/vol1/run/ERR274/ERR2744351/I1160.1240K.bam)

I1165
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-CTS2214/)
mtDNA: HV1a’b’c’
Sample: Petrous

They are all ( 100% ) CTS2214 in SNP

The detailed paper stated they came into the levant from the North ( eastern Anatolia )

lets move on ...........the J1 came via sumerians in the upper parts of the persian gulf......or what they call "Arab marshes"

The issued I want to speak about is the split between IJ ...............we all know about E and C


Thats not important were they come from. And so what if they are CTS2214 lol? Its T1a haplogroup with fairly high TMRCA. What is important is there was no haplogroup L together with T as you claimed before. Just as can be seen in Chalcolithic Middle East, there is plenty of haplogroup T but not a single L. Therefore your theory that T always moved with L is not right.

Also its clear that Middle East in Epipaleolithic and Neolithic was settled mostly with haplogroup E1b, then in Chalcolithic with haplogroup T1, and finally in Bronze Age haplogroup J1 and J2 both appear in same time and become most prevailing haplogroups.

In Europe same thing, there was no haplogroup J before Bronze Age. Haplogroup I and J had completely different migrations just as T and L had. Therefore no need to mention them together unless we are speaking about period of 40 000 years ago, when eventually they split and lived together for some period of time.

You said that J was in Europe in same time as haplogroup I since they split from IJ, but that is not correct. There was no haplogroup J in Europe before Bronze Age while there is plenty of haplogroup I. I think you should check all available ancient DNA and trying to understand it better before trying to bring conclusions.

Best regards, and take care !

torzio
12-03-20, 19:06
Thats not important were they come from. And so what if they are CTS2214 lol? Its T1a haplogroup with fairly high TMRCA. What is important is there was no haplogroup L together with T as you claimed before. Just as can be seen in Chalcolithic Middle East, there is plenty of haplogroup T but not a single L. Therefore your theory that T always moved with L is not right.

Also its clear that Middle East in Epipaleolithic and Neolithic was settled mostly with haplogroup E1b, then in Chalcolithic with haplogroup T1, and finally in Bronze Age haplogroup J1 and J2 both appear in same time and become most prevailing haplogroups.

In Europe same thing, there was no haplogroup J before Bronze Age. Haplogroup I and J had completely different migrations just as T and L had. Therefore no need to mention them together unless we are speaking about period of 40 000 years ago, when eventually they split and lived together for some period of time.

You said that J was in Europe in same time as haplogroup I since they split from IJ, but that is not correct. There was no haplogroup J in Europe before Bronze Age while there is plenty of haplogroup I. I think you should check all available ancient DNA and trying to understand it better before trying to bring conclusions.

Best regards, and take care !

I never said that T and L moved together , I said when they split could not be in the middle east or else they would have been found together in ancient times.............the most likely is they split in south central asia ( some say North-caucasus area ) ...with L initially moving towards the east and India and T moving towards the west and the caspian sea
T samples have already been found in neolithic Europe , at Germany and Bulgaria , 3 in each site .........

same with IJ, if as you say, J did not reach europe until the bronze age, then the split was where ? ...................you cannot just place ancient samples out of the sky into a land you like , you need some sort of trail .................what we know is IJ where together, fact , then they split, fact ..................to say J first appeared in bronze-age Europe to justify some sort of agenda does not cut it

I think we will never agree.............you like to find a grandfather and that is it ..............i like to find a grandfather and then want to know about his father

Kelmendasi
12-03-20, 22:30
There was no haplogroup J in Europe before Bronze Age while there is plenty of haplogroup I. I think you should check all available ancient DNA and trying to understand it better before trying to bring conclusions.
J was in fact already present in Europe prior to the Bronze Age.

J2 has been found in multiple Neolithic European sites:
1) J2a-S11842 from Neolithic Italy
2) J2a-Y29673 from Neolithic Italy
3) J2a-Z6048 from Neolithic Austria, Linear Pottery Culture
4) J2a-SK1363 from Neolithic Croatia, Sopot Culture
5) J2a-Z6055 from Neolithic Hungary, Lengyel Culture

2 J1samples have also been found:
1) J1-YSC1262+ from Mesolithic Russia
2) J1-L255+ from Mesolithic Russia

Dema
13-03-20, 13:42
J was in fact already present in Europe prior to the Bronze Age.

J2 has been found in multiple Neolithic European sites:
1) J2a-S11842 from Neolithic Italy
2) J2a-Y29673 from Neolithic Italy
3) J2a-Z6048 from Neolithic Austria, Linear Pottery Culture
4) J2a-SK1363 from Neolithic Croatia, Sopot Culture
5) J2a-Z6055 from Neolithic Hungary, Lengyel Culture

2 J1samples have also been found:
1) J1-YSC1262+ from Mesolithic Russia
2) J1-L255+ from Mesolithic Russia


That's true, there was few Neolithic ambiguous J2a samples. Even East European J1 samples that you mentioned.
However, they are few isolated samples in minority among majority of other haplogroups, and few drops dont make a rain : )
Ok, regarding these specific branches of J2a, we can assume they migrated to Europe since Neolithic.
J seems to spread to both West Middle East and Europe in time of Bronze Age or later, at least majority except few ambiguous J2a subclades which seems to migrate earlier regarding Europe.

Now of course, when we say J or rather J-M304, here we include all J1 and J2 subclades. But each major subclade has its own story and probably different migration time and place.
But for now as it seems most of J subclades spread in Bronze Age from Caucasus and Zagros mountains and few of them earlier like Neolithic J2a subclades found in Europe.


Also note that rest of J2a subclades also probably spread in Bronze Age, some of them even with Indo-Europeans and later, while almost entire J1 in Bronze Age or later Roman period. As said few drops dont make a rain.

Dema
13-03-20, 14:20
Mesolithic Russian J1 samples are probably earlier Caucasus hunter gatherers that got lost chasing their prey : ) Also they probably liked the plains and different terrain so decided to stay.

Little joking

Dema
15-03-20, 15:34
So, regarding Europe, J first appears in Early to Mid Neolithic but also can be seen in pre-IE Bronze Age in form of a fully developed J2a-M410*, in territories of modern Greece, Italy, Croatia, Austria and Hungary. We can assume that they were also partially Neolithic farmers which spread from Anatolia. And before that Mesolithic and Paleolithic Caucasus and Zagros hunter-gatherers.

Then in Middle Bronze Age we have first appearance of J2b-L283. Probably as Indo-europeanised earlier Caucasus and even earlier Mesolithic Zagros hunter-gatherers.
As it seems J2b-L283 conquered territory in Bronze Age primarily focused in Southeast Europe.

Then in Roman time also J1 and J2b-M205 also appear. Mostly from Phoenicians falling under Romans and joining them at the end.

Specifically in Roman Empire J takes considerable percentage where over 50 % of Imperial Romans were various branches of J-M304 haplogroup.

In later periods these percentages will fade down.


In West Middle East, Palestine, Lebanon and Israel, J first appears in Early Bronze Age in a from of fully developed J1 and J2b-M205, but also probably few other J2a and J2b subclades which were not yet found in aDNA but there is strong indications they were there.

So as said earlier. Regarding West Middle East in Paleolithic it was dominated with E1b tribes and in Chalcolithic with mostly T1 and few E1b tribes. But since the Early Bronze Age all samples were J-M304 with earlier aDNA found in Caucasus and Zagros Mountains since 10 000 BCE.


This is how J-M304 brotherhood conquered Middle East, Europe, Caucasus, and Zagros mountains. But also more further territories.

If we go 15 000 years back, all J were probably in range of Caucasus and Zagros mountains living together as various hunter-gatherer tribes. At least it seems the epicenter of J was there.

torzio
01-04-20, 05:26
interesting read........................J-Z4133 would be the first confirmed lineage of J-L283 that was north of the Alps as far back as the Late Bronze Age.

https://phylogeographer.com/eleven-j-l283-lineages-of-poland/

Trojet
02-04-20, 16:07
New development for J-Z638>Y21045. An Aromanian from Albania splits the J-Z38300 subclade. He tested PH1270+ PH4679+ and Z38300- Z38296-. This is the same cluster that was observed in Aromanians from Dukas, Albania with characteristic values of DYS388=17 and DYS389II=29, from the study: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2005.00251.x

With this result, the J-Y21045 TMRCA in Albania should be ~3600 ybp. This is the rarer "brother branch" of J-Z1297, and combined with aDNA data, it would suggest that J-Z638 itself likely expanded from or near the Western Balkans.

Aspurg
11-04-20, 23:45
Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: 3.4330% / 3.43296136
59.8 I3589_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4175_ybp
40.2 I3947_Croatia_Cardial_N_7836_ybp

Indeed as I've said long ago J-L283 came with Bell Beakers. Modelling Yamnaya doesn't work well, unlike for Vučedol which is ofc descended of Yamnaya directly. So these were around 60 % German BB and 40 % local Cardial EEF, and results are better calculating with the Dalmatian EEF rather than some others (which ofc makes sense as the find is from Dalmatia).

The most basal clade J-YP91 is a good mirror for J-L283, with the earliest split being W.Euro/N.Euro. And ofc this Sardinian now looks like some Sea Peoples immigrant.

Trojet
15-04-20, 14:25
I've been thinking that J-L283 is this Ljubljana and BB element. But J-L283 was found in Posušje culture already and that culture had nothing to do with Cetina culture, it is assumed they were different populations, with different way of life, despite living next to each other for hundreds of years barely any contact was recorded.. I see some Albanian R-L52*, he should be BB.
So if Posušje/Dinara are J-L283 then Cetina must be something else.. I thought about connecting J-L283 with Cernavoda and these Ezero Luwian cultures too, but your finds autosomal data says he is 60 % Central Euro BB or even Unetice and 40 % Dalmatian Cardial.
Generally diversity of J-L283 suggests they came from the North, and very important for this Posušje culture is so called Litzen ware, also apparently with Northern origin.


B. Govedarica, archaeologist, this is why I am reluctant to connect J-L283 with Cetina, though I thought they might be related to Ljubljana

Didn't want to go too much off topic on the other thread, so I'm posting this here.

I've been looking into this Lubljana Culture too, and potential link to J-L283. It does seem like J-L283 may have come from further north in the Balkans during EBA, as suggested by J-YP91*, J-Z585*, J-Z615* samples. Interestingly, I think I read somewhere suggesting that those EBA Montenegro tumuli (Mala/Velika Gruda, etc) were part of Lubljana Culture expansion people..

Aspurg
15-04-20, 19:07
Didn't want to go too much off topic on the other thread, so I'm posting this here.

I've been looking into this Lubljana Culture too, and potential link to J-L283. It does seem like J-L283 may have come from further north in the Balkans during EBA, as suggested by J-YP91*, J-Z585*, J-Z615* samples. Interestingly, I think I read somewhere suggesting that those EBA Montenegro tumuli (Mala/Velika Gruda, etc) were part of Lubljana Culture expansion people..

Indeed. Govedarica wrote about some archaic links of Posušje culture with Ljubljana but he couldn't give some explanation. There is also issue of Litzen ware, common in Posušje. Per some views its point of origin are Eastern Alps. Also Ljubljana formed in few phases: Ig I, and Ig II, and apparently in Ig III Litzen ware appears. Ig I involved Vučedol, Ig II, Bell Beaker.

Slovenian Stane Gabrovec In the EBA this whole area (Eastern Alps) is dominated by the Ljubljana culture, in the final stage with its Litzenian phase.

Some have tried to make Litzen = Ljubljana but Govedarica said Litzen came little bit later. Overall there seems to be some connection.

Part of Ljubljana was so called Middle Adriatic Ljubljana culture, some said crucial part of Cetina (on the other hand Cetina had clearly stronger Eastern influences much stronger than most of Yugoslav writers were willing to admit).

Actually reading about this Adriatic Ljubljana some of its elements also seem Adriatic EEF, living in caves.. Apparently there is no info on funerary ritual. So Govedarica says probably some EEF Mediterranean tradition.. Adriatic Ljubljana made plenty of influence on proto-Cetina in pottery..

So looking at it could be some IE J-L283, R-L51's who mixed up with E-L618 (might have been dominated by EEF's here).. These Eastern IE influences found in proto-Cetina are lacking. So yes it seems Cetina might have been formed by some Eastern IE influence.

Their site is Varvara A which had some Nakovana (late EEF) elements and ofc Varvara is a major Posušje (J-L283) center.. So it kinda looks to me this Ljubljana IE element might have been easily the J-L283. It's hard to pinpoint exactly but some of these details do point in that direction.

So Posušje culture was younger Varvara A3 and Varvara B1 (this is Reinecke chronology) and Adriatic Ljubljana was Varvara A1.. Search for "Gradina Varvara"..

Hmm I'm thinking Adriatic Ljubljana could be some non Posušje J-L283 lienage..

I didn't know much on Ljubljana and indeed Mala Gruda is Ljubljana, not Cetina and it seems non "Adriatic Ljubljana" either that is younger Ljubljana, Mala Gruda had a tumulus. As BB and even Slovenian Ljubljana had no tumulii I think this practice came from the East. No cremations (that was Cetina trait). And Posušje took the tumulii burial too so that might be another indication of a link.

Overall I'd say there are various indications that J-L283 indeed might be linked originally to Ljubljana culture. I'm thinking J-L283 = Ljubljana and these could have morphed into Posušje later or part of them at least.

Aspurg
15-04-20, 19:39
Interesting. So there were few Ljubljana's:
1) classical Ljubljana (Ig- in Slovenia etc.) Vučedol/BB mix or dominately BB with other influences (some claimed BB eliminated Vucedol elements here)
2) classical Ljubljana from Adriatic
3) Middle Adriatic Ljubljana (EEF admixed) only this part played part in Cetina genesis.

Ljubljana 2 had other than Mala Gruda also Rubež in Montenegro, but also Kënetë in Albania.. Kënetë also had plenty of Illyrian burials in Iron Age.. in Albanian. Near Kukës.
https://www.persee.fr/doc/iliri_1727-2548_1983_num_13_2_1831

Kënetë Ljubljana dates to Bronze Age Ib phase per Govedarica.


Link in Albanian about this book whee Govedarica writes about Ljubljana, Cetina, Posušje/Dinara.

https://www.persee.fr/doc/iliri_1727-2548_1990_num_20_1_1568

It seems we should have paid more attention to these Ljubljana finds, looks like these might represent some non-Posušje related early (EBA) expansions of J-L283 towards the South. TMRCA of some of these clades suggests such an earlier date.

Also seems these Ljubljana Adriatics adopted the tumulii from Easterners. As originally they didn't have them.

Aspurg
15-04-20, 21:54
Govedarica quote, I translated to English (again L'age du bronze ancien dans la region de l'Adriatique de l'est):

It is interesting that some archaic forms from the first phase of Posusje culture point more towards older samples of Ljubljana type than towards Cetina which immediately preceded it. We have in mind the spherical dishes with cylindrical neck from Varvara A3, motives of musical notes from Nečajno and Privala as well as ladder-like decorations which are very numerous in this culture. Here belong also dishes with broadened rims which also correspond more to primary Ljubljana tradition than to exemplars of this type from the Cetina culture.

Can this mean that within this frame there exists an older horizon which predates Posusje culture, that is her first phase in the sense of our definition?! According to available strati-graphical data this cannot be confirmed. Namely the situation in Varvara A3 and in Ravlica cave IV, clearly indicates that most of these elements are chronologically fixed within the phase (Reinecke) Br. A2 and that typological link with the Ljubljana culture is very difficult to explain..

I was mentioning that the great find of Varvara was Posusje culture in A3 and B1, it was this pre-Cetina Ljubljana in A1. This occurs in the middle in A2. It might be that this unusual link is genetic or some proto-Posusje J-L283 people which still retained the Ljubljana elements. Of course Litzen ware common in Posusje appears in Ljubljana Ig III (after the classical I and II).

Trojet
16-04-20, 13:24
Interesting information. Good to know that Ljubljana culture spawned all the way to northern Albania.

In due time, we should have all these answers with ancient DNA. But in the meantime it's fun hypothesizing. After all, this field would be pretty boring if we had all these answers ;)

Johane Derite
16-04-20, 17:56
Some ancient and historical J2b-L283s:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EVvJKdPWsAA7yMm?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

Johane Derite
16-04-20, 18:07
I guess some things never change:


https://i.imgur.com/TSEPh25.png

Aspurg
17-04-20, 05:58
Interesting information. Good to know that Ljubljana culture spawned all the way to northern Albania.

In due time, we should have all these answers with ancient DNA. But in the meantime it's fun hypothesizing. After all, this field would be pretty boring if we had all these answers ;)

Indeed, the unknown makes things interesting. There are no great many Slavic aDNA finds either but everybody knows they are Slavic, partly also because of archaeological evidence.

I wouldn't be surprised if these Albanian Ljubljana finds represent the entire J-Z638. Some other authors say more explicitly that Litzen (Posusje J-L283 find) ware originates from Ljubljana also.


Kënetë also had plenty of Illyrian burials in Iron Age.. in Albanian. Near Kukës.
https://www.persee.fr/doc/iliri_1727-2548_1983_num_13_2_1831


Tuma/Tumulus IV from this Albanian work is older - that is this Ljubljana culture find mentioned by Govedarica. So you have details on Tuma IV in Albanian.

I was thinking all might fit here except J-Z631, but you see in Kënetë in Iron Age also plenty of Tumulii, part of Glasinac-Mati. I thought and still do J-Z631 is connected to it, but in addition to PH1602 who are indigenous there, Z631 might have started further south.

Other Ljubljana finds from Albania are Gajtan near Shkoder layer I, Nezir cave (Mati river canyon) layer IIIa. Generally Northern Albanian area where J-L283 is particularly strong.

So I see sort of pattern J-Z638 = Ljubljana (South Adriatic type), J-Y15058=Posusje. Interestingly Posusje had some Italian influences. That might explain both V.Vanik find and the Etruscan find, as the Etruscan was also Y15058 and I think autosomally he was pretty close to Vanik find.

Fustan
17-04-20, 23:28
Does anyone have an explanation as to why this haplogroup isn't as frequent in South Albania? Ghegs seem to have this haplogroup to a much larger extent. What are your guys' theories?

torzio
18-04-20, 01:09
Does anyone have an explanation as to why this haplogroup isn't as frequent in South Albania? Ghegs seem to have this haplogroup to a much larger extent. What are your guys' theories?

You mean there are no Tosks or Epirotes that have it ?

Fustan
18-04-20, 03:56
You mean there are no Tosks or Epirotes that have it ?

Not that they dont have it, but only 6.8% tosks have it whereas 24.2% ghegs have it (according to gjenetika)

Parapolitikos
18-04-20, 12:46
Does anyone have an explanation as to why this haplogroup isn't as frequent in South Albania? Ghegs seem to have this haplogroup to a much larger extent. What are your guys' theories?

Cause it came with a Gheg colonization of South Albania.
South Albania has its own version of J2b , Z631.
Gheg colonization occurred somewhere in the middle ages, and more likely closer to the present day than not..

Johane Derite
18-04-20, 12:48
Cause it came with a Gheg colonization of South Albania.
South Albania has its own version of J2b , Z631.
Gheg colonization occurred somewhere in the middle ages, and more likely closer to the present day than not..
No such colonization event happened. Your fake news attempt trying to spread this nonsense will never succeed. J2b-l283 has been in laberia a long time.

Trojet
18-04-20, 14:29
Not that they dont have it, but only 6.8% tosks have it whereas 24.2% ghegs have it (according to gjenetika)

IMO, there is a couple of reasons. One of them is because southern Albania has received a larger influx of migrations after the fall of Rome, which would naturally lower the percentages of other haplos. For example, J2b-L283 has the lowest percentage in Korçë county (less than 5%), while the highest in the Labëria region (10-15%). Also, in the Labëria region, there is some rare J-L283 lineages, like J-Y146400*, J-YP181*, and some J-Z631. So they have no connection with northern lineages in thousands of years..


Cause it came with a Gheg colonization of South Albania.
South Albania has its own version of J2b , Z631.
Gheg colonization occurred somewhere in the middle ages, and more likely closer to the present day than not..

Wrong. J-Z631 is observed in roughly similar proportions in both Ghegs and Tosks. So stop spamming this thread too.

Wanderer
20-04-20, 04:02
Pretty cool. Been a while since I've been here. Wish there was more basal lineages discovered tho.

TaktikatEMalet
25-07-20, 12:53
I stopped reading when he claimed j2b l283 is from ottoman without showing a chart of strong j2b l283 in the region where ottoman came from. Also he defended j2a, j2a partnered with j1 is the likeliest of ottoman expansion into balkans, it is common in Iran and other middle eastern regions where ottoman came from so maybe some modern Greek j2a and j1 is ottoman, has someone looked into this?