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Pax Augusta
12-08-20, 18:14
Nuragics were non IE speaking people, Etruscans as well and i believe they will continue showing up this J2b2 - L283. They probably initially came with CHG rich populations. In peer reviewed scientific papers it's labelled as ABA (Anatolian Bronze Age) and it should be related to J2a and J2b2. It's a no brainer only Greeks, Albanians, Bulgarians and Italians have this ABA to a certain degree.

We have over 30 mtDNAs of Etruscans and they are against the hypothesis that the Etruscans came initially from a population rich in CHG.

At present there is no evidence that J2b2-L283 is telling us anything about the origins of the Etruscans. ABA that exists in southern Europe has nothing to do with the Etruscans.

Dibran
12-08-20, 18:19
Would like to share an interesting new BigY result for the J-Z597>Y146400 branch.
A person with origin from Krk, Croatia, is tested Y146400+ FGC64027+ FGC64043-, which means he is splitting YFull's J-Y146400 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/) branch. An interesting result for this rare branch parallel/brother to the more common J-Z2507, coming from an island of Croatia. The new phylogeny should look something like this:
https://i.imgur.com/2hXqSDx.png
@Wanderer, your "Levantine origin" theory for J-Y146400 just went down the drain :grin:
I told you it never made sense.

Given the downstream branch in India, would you say this could possibly indicates migration with Alexanders forces?

Or, is it a really old split and likely not correlated to Paleo-Balkan stock?

Jovialis
12-08-20, 21:14
We have over 30 mtDNAs of Etruscans and they are against the hypothesis that the Etruscans came initially from a population rich in CHG.

At present there is no evidence that J2b2-L283 is telling us anything about the origins of the Etruscans. ABA that exists in southern Europe has nothing to do with the Etruscans.
https://i.imgur.com/I6ZWkwE.png

Etruscans and Latins can be modeled as having roughly the same amount of Iran_N as they did EHG+Steppe_Eneolithic. Which is what distinguishes them from their contemporaries, to the north, as per the chart above. Which also seems to have been the case with the Bronze Age Mycenaean samples minus WHG and far more Anatolian_N; some having a little more Iran_N. Though the R1 sample, which is to the left of the block, itself has almost no WHG. It seems that this was the case throughout the central, and eastern Northern Mediterranean basin. I think the Iran_N arrived gradually via intermediary populations, some prior to the arrival of Steppe, Not straight from ABA.

Trojet
13-08-20, 15:40
Given the downstream branch in India, would you say this could possibly indicates migration with Alexanders forces?
Or, is it a really old split and likely not correlated to Paleo-Balkan stock?

The Alexander thesis is possible. However, if I'm not mistaken, the guy from Kerala, India, is a Christian or has a tradition of origin from Syrian Christians. So I think it's more likely that subclade migrated during the Bronze Age collapse via the southern Balkans. (Roman era expansion is also possible as suggested by ~2000 ybp TMRCAs of Lebanon/Columbia/Italy samples).

Anyway, IMHO, the more important thing is this basal J-Y146400 from NW Croatia further strengthens the idea that J-Z597 (TMRCA 4400 ybp) expanded from western/northwestern Balkans. And this brings us to J-Z597 and the EBA "Ljubljana culture" which was theorized/discussed by me and Aspurg some time ago:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34165-J2b2-L283-(proto-illyrian)/page20?p=601292&viewfull=1#post601292

hrvat22
13-08-20, 16:09
The Alexander thesis is possible. However, if I'm not mistaken, the guy from Kerala, India, is a Christian or has a tradition of origin from Syrian Christians. So I think it's more likely that subclade migrated during the Bronze Age collapse via the southern Balkans.
Anyway, IMHO, the more important thing is this basal J-Y146400 from NW Croatia further strengthens the idea that J-Z597 (TMRCA 4400 ybp) expanded from western/northwestern Balkans. And this brings us to J-Z597 and the EBA "Ljubljana culture" which was theorized/discussed by me and Aspurg some time ago:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34165-J2b2-L283-(proto-illyrian)/page20?p=601292&viewfull=1#post601292

This theory(expanded from western/northwestern Balkans. "Ljubljana culture") should be proved with Slovenian R1b branches. I don't know if that's the case?

As for the island Krk is concerned, there is certainly an autochthonous (Y dna)possibility, but there is also and the Vlach connection. Part of the population(ie Vlachs) to Krk coming from Lika and Dinara area. So and some Vlachs migration is possible, even originally from the area of Albania. In any case it could be some Illyrian-Albanian branch, and in the future we will see a possible direction of local migration or perhaps assimilation by newly arrived Croats(6, 7th century).

Trojet
13-08-20, 16:40
This theory(expanded from western/northwestern Balkans. "Ljubljana culture") should be proved with Slovenian R1b branches. I don't know if that's the case?
As for the island Krk is concerned, there is certainly an autochthonous (Y dna)possibility, but there is also and the Vlach connection. Part of the population(ie Vlachs) to Krk coming from Lika and Dinara area. So and some Vlachs migration is possible, even originally from the area of Albania. In any case it could be some Illyrian-Albanian branch, and in the future we will see a possible direction of local migration or perhaps assimilation by newly arrived Croats(6, 7th century).

It's certainly possible that it migrated from the inland. However, considering that particular branch hasn't been found inland, and the distance with the Albanian is closer to 4000 years, I think it's more likely it's "autochthonous" to that region of Croatia. Also, keep in mind there is a J-Z597+ dated 3600 ybp in southern Croatia, next to the Adriatic (sample i4331).

I remember seeing a study from the Croatian islands some time ago. Haplogroup J2b was detected 6-9% in the islands (I believe 9% in Cres) which is significantly higher than the mainland, at least for J2b-L283. Of course, it's possible some of that J2b is in fact J2b-M205. Unfortunately, they didn't test beyond J2b.

Pax Augusta
13-08-20, 17:12
https://i.imgur.com/I6ZWkwE.png

Etruscans and Latins can be modeled as having roughly the same amount of Iran_N as they did EHG+Steppe_Eneolithic. Which is what distinguishes them from their contemporaries, to the north, as per the chart above. Which also seems to have been the case with the Bronze Age Mycenaean samples minus WHG and far more Anatolian_N; some having a little more Iran_N. Though the R1 sample, which is to the left of the block, itself has almost no WHG. It seems that this was the case throughout the central, and eastern Northern Mediterranean basin. I think the Iran_N arrived gradually via intermediary populations, some prior to the arrival of Steppe, Not straight from ABA.

There Iran_N is nothing more than synonymous with CHG (and this already makes it clear that not even geneticists have the clearest ideas). And Iran_N peeps into the Neolithic in Italy.

But the point was something else.

There is no evidence that the Etruscans came initially from a population rich in CHG. Which is even wrong from an archaeological and ethnos formation point of view. Ethnos, in the sense of ethnic self-awareness, only emerged in the Iron Age. Just as at present there is no evidence that J2b2-L283 is telling us anything about the origins of the Etruscans.

Jovialis
13-08-20, 17:19
There Iran_N is nothing more than synonymous with CHG (and this already makes it clear that not even geneticists have the clearest ideas). And Iran_N peeps into the Neolithic in Italy.

But the point was something else.

There is no evidence that the Etruscans came initially from a population rich in CHG. Which is even wrong from an archaeological and ethnos formation point of view. Ethnos, in the sense of ethnic self-awareness, only emerged in the Iron Age. Just as at present there is no evidence that J2b2-L283 is telling us anything about the origins of the Etruscans.

Indeed, I agree with all of those points.

Wanderer
15-08-20, 02:42
There Iran_N is nothing more than synonymous with CHG (and this already makes it clear that not even geneticists have the clearest ideas). And Iran_N peeps into the Neolithic in Italy.

But the point was something else.

There is no evidence that the Etruscans came initially from a population rich in CHG. Which is even wrong from an archaeological and ethnos formation point of view. Ethnos, in the sense of ethnic self-awareness, only emerged in the Iron Age. Just as at present there is no evidence that J2b2-L283 is telling us anything about the origins of the Etruscans.

Etruscans came after the sack of troy. As Dardanians also migrated toward there this is why the sea ppls sack mycenaeans, hitties and egyptians. Pelasgians from anatolia that were part of the trojan war were part of the sea ppls.
But also the sherdan ppls,

Sea ppls erkwesh, teresh, lukka and sherden, shekelesh, northerners coming from all lands.

Lukkas are lycian for example
Teresh are tyrenians

The sherdan are sardinian (nuraghe) and had pottery of theirs discovered in cyprus which they also invaded during the collapse of the bronze age.

The Erkwesh are ahhiyawa which were neighbors of the lycians (lukka)
Lived peace fully with the hittites up to a point.

Also the earliest J-L283 is found in croatia 1600 BC. There is no J-L283 sample found in europe earlier than that which most likely means that J-L283 probably arrived not too long before that. If J-L283 was really part of the yanmaya expansion we should see alot more J-L283 distributed around europe earlier in ancient samples but we don't.

Instead we see J-L283 expanding from Caucus to balkans. Meaning that likely they crossed the black sea to the balkans. And later crossed through the medditerenean

Pax Augusta
15-08-20, 03:25
Etruscans came after the sack of troy. As Dardanians also migrated toward there this is why the sea ppls sack mycenaeans, hitties and egyptians. Pelasgians from anatolia that were part of the trojan war were part of the sea ppls.
But also the sherdan ppls,

Sea ppls erkwesh, teresh, lukka and sherden, shekelesh, northerners coming from all lands.

Lukkas are lycian for example
Teresh are tyrenians

The sherdan are sardinian (nuraghe) and had pottery of theirs discovered in cyprus which they also invaded during the collapse of the bronze age.

The Erkwesh are ahhiyawa which were neighbors of the lycians (lukka)
Lived peace fully with the hittites up to a point.

Also the earliest J-L283 is found in croatia 1600 BC. There is no J-L283 sample found in europe earlier than that which most likely means that J-L283 probably arrived not too long before that. If J-L283 was really part of the yanmaya expansion we should see alot more J-L283 distributed around europe earlier on but we don't.


I'll overlook the rest that it's the usual old guff. Coming straight to the point, recently in a preprint an individual of the Maros culture buried in Mokrin necropolis in northern Serbia could be J2b2-L283. The culture of Maros is an early bronze age culture that stretched between Hungary and northern Serbia and northern Romania. If it is confirmed, we go up to 2100-1800 BC in the Balkans.

Wanderer
15-08-20, 03:44
I'll overlook the rest that it's the usual old guff. Coming straight to the point, recently in a preprint an individual of the Maros culture buried in Mokrin necropolis in northern Serbia could be J2b2-L283. The culture of Maros is an early bronze age culture that stretched between Hungary and northern Serbia and northern Romania. If it is confirmed, we go up to 2100-1800 BC in the Balkans.We'll sea. I really want to see more J-L283 (-z585) samples. Or even up to -615 samples

Archetype0ne
15-08-20, 04:01
I'll overlook the rest that it's the usual old guff. Coming straight to the point, recently in a preprint an individual of the Maros culture buried in Mokrin necropolis in northern Serbia could be J2b2-L283. The culture of Maros is an early bronze age culture that stretched between Hungary and northern Serbia and northern Romania. If it is confirmed, we go up to 2100-1800 BC in the Balkans.

You are talking about this paper correct?
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/40016-Kinship-acquired-and-inherited-status-and-population-structure-at-the-Early-Bronze

What makes us think its L283? Did not read the paper myself.
Also will they release deeper analysis of the haplogroups?

Pax Augusta
15-08-20, 04:08
You are talking about this paper correct?
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/40016-Kinship-acquired-and-inherited-status-and-population-structure-at-the-Early-Bronze

What makes us think its L283? Did not read the paper myself.
Also will they release deeper analysis of the haplogroups?

Yes, correct. They told me it might be J2b2-L283. Quiles writes it too, you'll find it here (To be fair I often don't agree with Quiles's assumptions, but this time it looks like it's not his assumption).

https://indo-european.eu/2020/05/maros-shows-yamnaya-derived-east-bbc-ancestry-and-local-admixture/

Archetype0ne
15-08-20, 04:28
Yes, correct. They told me it might be J2b2-L283. Quiles writes it too, you'll find it here (To be fair I often don't agree with Quiles's assumptions, but this time it looks like it's not his assumption).

https://indo-european.eu/2020/05/maros-shows-yamnaya-derived-east-bbc-ancestry-and-local-admixture/

Thank you, I saw that as well. If it is indeed L283, would this L283 mean that it predates Indo Europeans in the Balkans? Or is this just some very early Indo European Colonization? Possibly auDNA can hint at the answer.

Why I am asking is because wikipedia is really confusing. On one hand it writes this:


"Pre-Yamnaya steppe herders, archaic Proto-Indo-European speakers, spread into the lower Danube valley about 4200–4000 BCE, either causing or taking advantage of the collapse of Old Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Europe_(archaeology)).[32] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_migrations#cite_note-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007133-41) According to Anthony, their languages "probably included archaic Proto-Indo-European dialects of the kind partly preserved later in Anatolian."[130] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_migrations#cite_note-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007229-164) Damgaard et al. (2018) note that "[a]mong comparative linguists, a Balkan route for the introduction of Anatolian IE is generally considered more likely than a passage through the Caucasus, due, for example, to greater Anatolian IE presence and language diversity in the west."[34] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_migrations#cite_note-FOOTNOTEDamgaard2018-43)"

On the other hand:
https://i.imgur.com/JIlseOe.png




https://i.imgur.com/gG7LV5H.jpg

Trojet
15-08-20, 04:49
I'll overlook the rest that it's the usual old guff. Coming straight to the point, recently in a preprint an individual of the Maros culture buried in Mokrin necropolis in northern Serbia could be J2b2-L283. The culture of Maros is an early bronze age culture that stretched between Hungary and northern Serbia and northern Romania. If it is confirmed, we go up to 2100-1800 BC in the Balkans.

Correct. That sample is only reported as J2b, but I'll be surprised if it's not J2b-L283+. Hopefully they release the raw data soon enough and we confirm it.

Let's see, maybe we get the first ancient J-L283>Z597>Z638, where the vast majority of Albanian J-L283 belongs. That sample could also be J-L283>YP91, as this one has a more continental European spread.

TaktikatEMalet
16-08-20, 14:36
Does anyone know why e-v13 has such a stronger spread in balkans over j2b l283? Did l283 come later in smaller numbers and held down dardania & north east albania region?

What are the oldest samples for both haplogroups in balkans so far? We need at least 2 of each

Wanderer
18-08-20, 06:35
Thank you, I saw that as well. If it is indeed L283, would this L283 mean that it predates Indo Europeans in the Balkans? Or is this just some very early Indo European Colonization? Possibly auDNA can hint at the answer.

Why I am asking is because wikipedia is really confusing. On one hand it writes this:


"Pre-Yamnaya steppe herders, archaic Proto-Indo-European speakers, spread into the lower Danube valley about 4200–4000 BCE, either causing or taking advantage of the collapse of Old Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Europe_(archaeology)).[32] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_migrations#cite_note-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007133-41) According to Anthony, their languages "probably included archaic Proto-Indo-European dialects of the kind partly preserved later in Anatolian."[130] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_migrations#cite_note-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007229-164)[COLOR=#202122][FONT=sans-serif] Damgaard et al. (2018) note that "[a]mong comparative linguists, a Balkan route for the introduction of Anatolian IE is generally considered more likely than a passage through the Caucasus, due, for example, to greater Anatolian IE presence and language diversity in the west."

This is what I thought before

Wanderer
18-08-20, 06:39
Does anyone know why e-v13 has such a stronger spread in balkans over j2b l283? Did l283 come later in smaller numbers and held down dardania & north east albania region?

What are the oldest samples for both haplogroups in balkans so far? We need at least 2 of each

J-L283 is a uncommon or rare haplogroup period. Its only even alittle more common in the balkans. Its weird its hardly present. But r1b is off the charts and e1b like you said for the balkans.

Trojet
18-08-20, 20:27
Wanted to share here some new developments for J-Y15058 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y15058/).

A new J-Z38240 subclade defined by J-BY161223 was discovered, parallel to J-PH1602 and J-CTS6190. It currently contains the Sardinian who was previously at ~J-Y15058, a new Macedonian sample, the Norwegian who was previously at J-Z38240*, and an Iberian (not NGS tested). The Algerian remains at J-Z38240*.

I see that the ancient I4331 from Southern Croatia is negative for J-BY161223 so he remains at ~J-Z38240*, and interestingly lived at roughly the same time as its estimated TMRCA.

Also, a Bulgarian tracing decent to Greek Macedonia recently tested Z2507+ and Z638- at YSEQ. We now predict he is Z40052+. His haplotype seems distant from the other J-Z40052 samples. So for J-Y15058 subclades, at this point I would theorize that J-Z38240 was more western Balkan, while J-Z40052 more central Balkan, maybe there was some presence among ancient Macedonians.

I think these developments further diminish Aspurg's "Sardinian/Italian diversity" or the possibility of J-Y15058 expanding from there, as the Sardinian now falls downstream of J-Y15058. (This is also consistent with the idea that the "Etruscan" J-CTS6190 likely migrated from the Balkans sometime between 3600-2800 ybp going by YFull's age estimates).

Trojet
04-09-20, 22:49
I'll overlook the rest that it's the usual old guff. Coming straight to the point, recently in a preprint an individual of the Maros culture buried in Mokrin necropolis in northern Serbia could be J2b2-L283. The culture of Maros is an early bronze age culture that stretched between Hungary and northern Serbia and northern Romania. If it is confirmed, we go up to 2100-1800 BC in the Balkans.

I analyzed the BAM file of the J2b sample from this paper: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.18.101337v1

Mokrin necropolis, an Early Bronze Age (2,100-1,800 BC) Maros culture site in North Serbia

He is J2b-L283 >> Z615+ (Z584- Z2505-): https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z615/

Male in burial 163, according to the paper: "At the opposite end of the status spectrum, a woman from the burial 181 was very likely the mother of the male in burial 163 and both were buried with grave goods indicative of higher social status (30). Since the male individual was an adult at the time of death, it remains unclear whether he inherited or acquired his status."

Archetype0ne
05-09-20, 02:40
I analyzed the BAM file of the J2b sample from this paper: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.18.101337v1

Mokrin necropolis, an Early Bronze Age (2,100-1,800 BC) Maros culture site in North Serbia

He is J2b-L283 >> Z615+ (Z584- Z2505-): https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z615/

Male in burial 163, according to the paper: "At the opposite end of the status spectrum, a woman from the burial 181 was very likely the mother of the male in burial 163 and both were buried with grave goods indicative of higher social status (30). Since the male individual was an adult at the time of death, it remains unclear whether he inherited or acquired his status."

Great news! Thanks Trojet :good_job:

So it is confirmed, another ancient sample joins the L283 family.
The oldest L283 in Europe to my knowledge, 4K years in the Balkans it seems :)

Crank
05-09-20, 07:10
Not an expert in this but at this point I doubt it was a Proto-Illyrian. Most likely came to Europe during the Neolithic or Bronze Age from the near east. Indo European languages in the Balkans were spread by people rich in R1b most likely. But anything is possible.

Archetype0ne
05-09-20, 14:05
Not an expert in this but at this point I doubt it was a Proto-Illyrian. Most likely came to Europe during the Neolithic or Bronze Age from the near east. Indo European languages in the Balkans were spread by people rich in R1b most likely. But anything is possible.

Hey bro, welcome to Eupedia :)

Would love to engage you in discussion regarding your thoughts.
Have read a lot of threads linking J2B with IndoEuropeans, but when it comes to language as opposed to DNA for this time period (IE) it is hard to make any factually based discussions.
So instead I will engage you on the Near Eastern inclination for L283 you have.
What exactly gives you that impression?

TaktikatEMalet
06-09-20, 22:18
Not an expert in this but at this point I doubt it was a Proto-Illyrian. Most likely came to Europe during the Neolithic or Bronze Age from the near east. Indo European languages in the Balkans were spread by people rich in R1b most likely. But anything is possible.

R1b also came from near east, not sure what your point is

In order to figure out what illyrians belonged to we need to know the percentages of r1b Z2103 throughout the balkans, how much is this in Romanians, Bulgarians etc? It is strong in Albanians in regions with a lot of j2b l283

If Z2103 is low in Eastern balkans then maybe we have an answer

Archetype0ne
07-09-20, 00:12
R1b also came from near east, not sure what your point is
In order to figure out what illyrians belonged to we need to know the percentages of r1b Z2103 throughout the balkans, how much is this in Romanians, Bulgarians etc? It is strong in Albanians in regions with a lot of j2b l283
If Z2103 is low in Eastern balkans then maybe we have an answer

Except L283 did not come from the Middle East... That's why I wanted to engage him in discussion. So far there is no evidence to suggest so. Neither ancient samples, nor terminal SNPs, nor modern distribution for that matter.

https://yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/ancient-y-dna-j-l283.png



https://i.imgur.com/TTy0zdQ.png
https://indo-european.eu/2020/02/visualizing-phylogenetic-trees-of-ancient-dna-in-a-map/



So based on living relatives, terminal L283 today is found in Armenia. Keep in mind the mutation is some 10k years old.
Furthermore there is the above ancient sample from Caucasus MBA.
The Mokrin sample 2000 BC.
Then we have Croatia sample MBA 1500-1700 BC.
3 Nuragic Sardinia 1300-1100 BC.
Etruscan 700 BC.

I think people make the mistake of thinking it is a Middle Eastern Haplogroup due to it being J2 and its distribution today in the middle east. However L283 separated from J2 (M241) some 10k years ago... My guess would be based on the evidence somewhere in Armenia, or relatively close to Caucasus.

Nonetheless... I am not the best person to ask but there is plenty of info on the net, with various theories how it got to Europe. Right now I subscribe to Armenia/Caucasus through/over Black Sea into Northern Balkans through the Danube before moving into Italy and Southern Balkans.

Pax Augusta
10-09-20, 15:38
Wanted to share here some new developments for J-Y15058 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y15058/).
A new J-Z38240 subclade defined by J-BY161223 was discovered, parallel to J-PH1602 and J-CTS6190. It currently contains the Sardinian who was previously at ~J-Y15058, a new Macedonian sample, the Norwegian who was previously at J-Z38240*, and an Iberian (not NGS tested). The Algerian remains at J-Z38240*.
I see that the ancient I4331 from Southern Croatia is negative for J-BY161223 so he remains at ~J-Z38240*, and interestingly lived at roughly the same time as its estimated TMRCA.
Also, a Bulgarian tracing decent to Greek Macedonia recently tested Z2507+ and Z638- at YSEQ. We now predict he is Z40052+. His haplotype seems distant from the other J-Z40052 samples. So for J-Y15058 subclades, at this point I would theorize that J-Z38240 was more western Balkan, while J-Z40052 more central Balkan, maybe there was some presence among ancient Macedonians.
I think these developments further diminish Aspurg's "Sardinian/Italian diversity" or the possibility of J-Y15058 expanding from there, as the Sardinian now falls downstream of J-Y15058. (This is also consistent with the idea that the "Etruscan" J-CTS6190 likely migrated from the Balkans sometime between 3600-2800 ybp going by YFull's age estimates).


Going by YFull's age estimates (formed 3700 ybp, TMRCA 3200 ybp) J-CTS6190 may have migrated from the Balkans sometime between 3700-3200 ybp, this span of time coincides with what there was before the Proto-Villanovan culture in Italy, the Apennine culture, which, however, is not considered a homogeneous culture that represented a homogeneous population. In any case, migrations and contacts between Italy and the Balkans were always there. Even the possible migrations during the Proto-Villanovan period (>Urnfield culture) of the end of the Bronze Age (not to be confused with the Iron Age Villanovan culture) may have come from a very large area from Central Europe to the northern Balkans. What is wrong is when referring to the Bronze Age cultures the use of names of ethnic groups that will emerge only in the Iron Age, although it is quite evident that Iron Age ethnos are descended from Bronze Age cultures.



I analyzed the BAM file of the J2b sample from this paper: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.18.101337v1

Mokrin necropolis, an Early Bronze Age (2,100-1,800 BC) Maros culture site in North Serbia

He is J2b-L283 >> Z615+ (Z584- Z2505-): https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z615/

Male in burial 163, according to the paper: "At the opposite end of the status spectrum, a woman from the burial 181 was very likely the mother of the male in burial 163 and both were buried with grave goods indicative of higher social status (30). Since the male individual was an adult at the time of death, it remains unclear whether he inherited or acquired his status."

Really very interesting. Thank you for sharing it.


J-L283 is a uncommon or rare haplogroup period. Its only even alittle more common in the balkans. Its weird its hardly present. But r1b is off the charts and e1b like you said for the balkans.

J-L283 is not one of the most characterizing and common Y-DNAs in Italy but it cannot be defined as rare either.

Archetype0ne
11-09-20, 05:13
Interesting. So there were few Ljubljana's:
1) classical Ljubljana (Ig- in Slovenia etc.) Vučedol/BB mix or dominately BB with other influences (some claimed BB eliminated Vucedol elements here)
2) classical Ljubljana from Adriatic
3) Middle Adriatic Ljubljana (EEF admixed) only this part played part in Cetina genesis.

Ljubljana 2 had other than Mala Gruda also Rubež in Montenegro, but also Kënetë in Albania.. Kënetë also had plenty of Illyrian burials in Iron Age.. in Albanian. Near Kukës.
https://www.persee.fr/doc/iliri_1727-2548_1983_num_13_2_1831

Kënetë Ljubljana dates to Bronze Age Ib phase per Govedarica.


Link in Albanian about this book whee Govedarica writes about Ljubljana, Cetina, Posušje/Dinara.

https://www.persee.fr/doc/iliri_1727-2548_1990_num_20_1_1568

It seems we should have paid more attention to these Ljubljana finds, looks like these might represent some non-Posušje related early (EBA) expansions of J-L283 towards the South. TMRCA of some of these clades suggests such an earlier date.

Also seems these Ljubljana Adriatics adopted the tumulii from Easterners. As originally they didn't have them.

Very nice analysis Aspurg. That article you found is gold.
Do you think my clade Y21878* was one of the clades you mentioned? Formed 4kya TMRCA 3.7kya.
If they picked the tumuli tradition between 2.2-1.8kya, are you aware of any tumuli in Northern Albania dated to that period. I think if the theory holds there should be, just unsure if they are discovered. And if there are, and they get tested and we find clades upstream or even fully formed of that TMRCA I think that will give a lot of credence to the theory.

Wanderer
11-09-20, 06:07
Going by YFull's age estimates (formed 3700 ybp, TMRCA 3200 ybp) J-CTS6190 may have migrated from the Balkans sometime between 3700-3200 ybp, this span of time coincides with what there was before the Proto-Villanovan culture in Italy, the Apennine culture, which, however, is not considered a homogeneous culture that represented a homogeneous population. In any case, migrations and contacts between Italy and the Balkans were always there. Even the possible migrations during the Proto-Villanovan period (>Urnfield culture) of the end of the Bronze Age (not to be confused with the Iron Age Villanovan culture) may have come from a very large area from Central Europe to the northern Balkans. What is wrong is when referring to the Bronze Age cultures the use of names of ethnic groups that will emerge only in the Iron Age, although it is quite evident that Iron Age ethnos are descended from Bronze Age cultures.




Really very interesting. Thank you for sharing it.



J-L283 is not one of the most characterizing and common Y-DNAs in Italy but it cannot be defined as rare either.It seems kind of rare. Its always a very low percentage of a population with the exception of albanians. And maybe few notable exceptions. But majority of the time JL283 is very low.

Pax Augusta
11-09-20, 13:56
It seems kind of rare. Its always a very low percentage of a population with the exception of albanians. And maybe few notable exceptions. But majority of the time JL283 is very low.

You can not make comparisons, the Italians are circa 60 million and if you consider those who are of Italian origin and live abroad the number grows a lot. How many are the Albanians? It is obvious that in the Italians there is a greater diversification in the Y-DNAs than in the Albanians that are a much smaller population.

Archetype0ne
11-09-20, 16:13
You can not make comparisons, the Italians are circa 60 million and if you consider those who are of Italian origin and live abroad the number grows a lot. How many are the Albanians? It is obvious that in the Italians there is a greater diversification in the Y-DNAs than in the Albanians that are a much smaller population.

Not entirely sure. Holistically over 60% of Italians fall under R1b subranches if I am not mistaken? Meanwhile up to 70% of Albanians fall within 3 groups (V13,L283,R1B) I guess in southern Italy the picture changes with similar breakdowns into 20-30% per basal haplogroup similar to the picture in Albanians. So as far as % wise diversification there is arguments to be made.

As far as clade diversification within the subranches, not entirely familiar with the picture in Italy, but withing Albania you can see diversity spanning up to >4kya within the 3 main subranches. So yeah... there might be ~6mln Albanians in the Balkans, but I doubt the nominal number of population says much about diversification.

Nonetheless, I agree with you. L283 numbers, age and diversity in Italy is quite significant.

Progon
14-09-20, 00:15
I would say Proto-Illyrians were likely mostly E-V13 S2979. It matches like gloves, Illyrians were Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age comers as is S2979. S2979 is widespread from South to North Albanians as well.

TaktikatEMalet
14-09-20, 10:32
Not entirely sure. Holistically over 60% of Italians fall under R1b subranches if I am not mistaken? Meanwhile up to 70% of Albanians fall within 3 groups (V13,L283,R1B) I guess in southern Italy the picture changes with similar breakdowns into 20-30% per basal haplogroup similar to the picture in Albanians. So as far as % wise diversification there is arguments to be made.
As far as clade diversification within the subranches, not entirely familiar with the picture in Italy, but withing Albania you can see diversity spanning up to >4kya within the 3 main subranches. So yeah... there might be ~6mln Albanians in the Balkans, but I doubt the nominal number of population says much about diversification.
Nonetheless, I agree with you. L283 numbers, age and diversity in Italy is quite significant.

What are the percentages of each r1b subclades in italy. You can't group them all together so there is still diversity among the r1b just like there is a lot of diversity in England with many different groups of r1b, i and roman/balkan subclades

TaktikatEMalet
14-09-20, 10:35
I would say Proto-Illyrians were likely mostly E-V13 S2979. It matches like gloves, Illyrians were Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age comers as is S2979. S2979 is widespread from South to North Albanians as well.
Maybe but from which direction did they come from? And they didn't come as just pure e-v13. If they came from the north/germany it is possible they had i1 too

Progon
14-09-20, 11:07
Maybe but from which direction did they come from? And they didn't come as just pure e-v13. If they came from the north/germany it is possible they had i1 too

North Germany is too North, it was an area between Switzerland/Austria/Hungary and Pannonia-Carpathian, something along the lines.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/warfare-in-bronze-age-society/bronze-weaponry-and-cultural-mobility-in-late-bronze-age-southeast-europe/F7C2C8ED8AA0B973866FE3A5159A5C09/core-reader?fbclid=IwAR1D1TR2miDZJTGofJUSYl7q0W7JFXU9so U1q-BKjUGmcNIHYeNYvmxQXKQ

I have seen British E-V13, mostly if not all of them are S2979 and some rare Z5018 subclades, and none of them is of Roman soldiers, their S2979 is older than Balkan ones.

So either this Eastern Urnfield layer during LBA were Illyro-Thracian like or a third unknown population mixing with Illyrians/Thracians/Greeks. Time will tell.

TaktikatEMalet
14-09-20, 12:38
North Germany is too North, it was an area between Switzerland/Austria/Hungary and Pannonia-Carpathian, something along the lines.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/warfare-in-bronze-age-society/bronze-weaponry-and-cultural-mobility-in-late-bronze-age-southeast-europe/F7C2C8ED8AA0B973866FE3A5159A5C09/core-reader?fbclid=IwAR1D1TR2miDZJTGofJUSYl7q0W7JFXU9so U1q-BKjUGmcNIHYeNYvmxQXKQ
I have seen British E-V13, mostly if not all of them are S2979 and some rare Z5018 subclades, and none of them is of Roman soldiers, their S2979 is older than Balkan ones.
So either this Eastern Urnfield layer during LBA were Illyro-Thracian like or a third unknown population mixing with Illyrians/Thracians/Greeks. Time will tell.

I meant North of balkans like Germany.
V13 Z5018 is MUCH more frequent in balkans than England so of course it could have came from there especially with the history of romans.

How can you suggest it is nothing to do with Romans, how much older are the v13 found in England than balkans? If its only a few years could simply be a miscalculation or not enough research has been done in balkans to find earlier sources yet. If v13 pre dates roman conquest in England then yes it would have nothing to do with roman soldiers, obviously

Progon
14-09-20, 12:41
I meant North of balkans like Germany.
V13 S2979 is MUCH more frequent in balkans than England so of course it could have came from there especially with the history of romans.
How can you suggest it is nothing to do with Romans, how much older are the v13 found in England than balkans? If its only a few years could simply be a miscalculation or not enough research has been done in balkans to find earlier sources yet

The migration was heavily concentrated in the Balkans of course. In England E-V13 is small, very small. But those that are present are not downclades of Balkan S2979. Atleast, i am not aware of any yet.

TaktikatEMalet
14-09-20, 12:49
The migration was heavily concentrated in the Balkans of course. In England E-V13 is small, very small. But those that are present are not downclades of Balkan S2979. Atleast, i am not aware of any yet.

Do any of their dates go back 2100 years? If yes, then we can confirm that some v13 in England had nothing to do with Romans. First invasions/wars started around 50 BC

TaktikatEMalet
15-09-20, 21:55
One example of why some v13 or l283 (the topic in discussion) may be found in BC Italy (or Rome even)

"By decision of the Senate, Gentius and his family were sent to Spoletum, to be kept under observation. The other captives were imprisoned in Rome. But the inhabitants of Spoletum refused to keep the royal family under watch, so they were transferred to Iguvium."

Wanderer
24-09-20, 00:38
You can not make comparisons, the Italians are circa 60 million and if you consider those who are of Italian origin and live abroad the number grows a lot. How many are the Albanians? It is obvious that in the Italians there is a greater diversification in the Y-DNAs than in the Albanians that are a much smaller population.Majority of italians are still r1b and over all J-L283 is not particularly high within the italian population in general.

Couple of new basal samples being processed.
Wonder from where or/and when
Interesting
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200923/50dbb0bc21ff667cf229be494af47eb3.jpg

Archetype0ne
24-09-20, 01:34
Majority of italians are still r1b and over all J-L283 is not particularly high within the italian population in general.

Couple of new basal samples being processed.
Wonder from where or/and when
Interesting
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200923/50dbb0bc21ff667cf229be494af47eb3.jpg

AFAIK the ones being updated are from ancient samples. ORC007 is the Mokrin sample IIRC. The rest should be Nuragic, Etruscan and Roman. Also the Viking I mentioned in this thread:


From the supplement:


https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41586-020-2688-8/MediaObjects/41586_2020_2688_MOESM1_ESM.pdf

Öland, Sweden
(Prepared by Helene Wilhelmson, Sydsvensk arkeologi AB, Kristianstad, and Department of Archaeology and Ancient History, Lund University)

Many human remains from the late Iron Age (400-1050 CE) have been excavated from burials and other contexts on the island of Öland in the Baltic Sea. Throughout the period the burials are both cremations as well as inhumations. There is considerable variation in inhumation burial form (pit coffin, stone cist, etc.) during the VA76–80. The uncremated human remains from burials (and other contexts) were recently studied using an interdisciplinary bioarchaeological perspective80 integrating new radiocarbon dates for many graves. The individuals studied for aDNA here are the majority of the late Iron Age population discussed in that study.

The most recent dietary isotope analysis of human remains, show a great individual variation in diet5 supporting the archaeozoological finds and point towards a population with highly varied subsistence strategies. First generation migration to Öland was investigated through 87Sr/86Sr and δ18O isotopes and the results were interpreted to show extensive immigration to the island with 68% non-local individuals in the late Iron Age. The immigrants appear to be both regional and interregional. The greater variation in individual diet could not be concluded to correlate to provenance of an individual. The people living in Öland during the late Iron Age have therefore been interpreted as a population of mixed provenance resulting in a creolized society with a combination of non-local and local traditions for burial and subsistence practices80.

The 29 individuals we sampled were included in the study of Wilhelmson80 and consist of all types of burials. They are from 20 sites in Öland, excavated on separate occasions between 1931 and 1975. About half of the individuals (n=15) are dated by 14C and the rest are dated by typology. The burials are inhumations of varied type. They have different orientations (east-west, north-south or southnorth), feature different architecture (lime stone cists, pits, coffins, full boat burial), and include single as well as multiple burials in one grave. Two more skeletons sampled in this study (id 1099, 1052) are from the early Iron Age. The table shown below presents details of the selected individuals.

https://i.imgur.com/EfQC9Gc.png
https://i.imgur.com/lbNteU3.png

This ancient sample was added to YFull:
L283: J-Z1043>Z8424>Y36972

Google maps of the Island: https://www.google.com/maps/place/%C3%96land/@56.7767145,15.6389021,8z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x46f878f635aa5b57:0x4a8d9 53c2ace7c35!8m2!3d56.6648948!4d16.6364773
Location of find:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/387+93+L%C3%A5ngl%C3%B6t,+Sweden/@56.7809687,16.8546797,10.09z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x46f876dfea1054e5:0xa00fef5b28d12 40!8m2!3d56.7460808!4d16.7268612

This particular sample seems to be classified as "local". Albeit the finds on the island are a mix between local and nonlocal.

The samples from the island are dated (400-1050 CE).

Not too sure about VK346.

Also I would say based on ancient samples, basal clades etc, Italy is super important to the history of L283. 3 Nuragic samples, 1 Etruscan sample, and some Roman IIRC. Plus "quite" some variety of clades.

In my mind after the Balkans, Italy is the most important spot in Europe for L283. At least based on current evidence.

Pax Augusta
25-09-20, 00:09
AFAIK the ones being updated are from ancient samples. ORC007 is the Mokrin sample IIRC. The rest should be Nuragic, Etruscan and Roman. Also the Viking I mentioned in this thread.

Isn't ORC007 a Nuragic sample?


ORC007; 1285-1127 BC; S’Orcu ‘e Tueri; Perdasdefogu, NUO; Nuragic II_LBA

Archetype0ne
25-09-20, 00:46
Isn't ORC007 a Nuragic sample?
ORC007; 1285-1127 BC; S’Orcu ‘e Tueri; Perdasdefogu, NUO; Nuragic II_LBA

You are correct. The three ORC's should be the Nuragic samples, if I am not mistaken again.

Furthermore they added these:
R474, Etruscan (700-600BCE): J-CTS6190

R116, Roman (0-200CE): J-Z631

R54, Abruzzo region (1280-1430CE): J-Y23094

Along with the Viking from the recent Study.
VK346, Viking (400-1100CE): J-Y36972


It unfortunately seems that among the ancient samples only Mokrin is missing...


Edited: (Cant really quote across forums and this was in Anthrogenica, so I did not quote the whole exchange:)
According to Trojet's reply to Johane it falls:


Johane:

Trojet's analysis of the oldest J2b-L283 in Europe so far:

"I analyzed the BAM file of the J2b from this paper: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...05.18.101337v1 (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.18.101337v1)

Mokrin necropolis, an Early Bronze Age (2,100-1,800 BC) Maros culture site in North Serbia

He is J2b-L283 >> Z615+ (Z584- Z2505-): https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z615/

Male in burial 163, according to the paper: "At the opposite end of the status spectrum, a woman from the burial 181 was very likely the mother of the male in burial 163 and both were buried with grave goods indicative of higher social status (30). Since the male individual was an adult at the time of death, it remains unclear whether he inherited or acquired his status."




Trojet:

Thanks for this dedicated J-L283 thread at Anthrogenica. I'll try to post important updates here as well.


I also checked the Novel SNPs of the two modern J-Z615* samples. I only got negative results, so this ancient sample remains at J-Z615* and lived around 1000 years after this mutation formed (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z615/).

The downstream branch, J-Z597 (TMRCA 4400 ybp), looks pretty western Balkan, so it likely moved further west around the time this Mokrin sample lived. We already have I4331, dated ~3600 ybp, from southern Croatia which was J-Z597>Z2507>Y15058. And recently a BigY tester with origin from Krk, Croatia, tested Y146400+ FGC64027+ FGC64043-, which means he is splitting YFull's J-Y146400 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/) branch:https://i.imgur.com/2hXqSDx.png



And since I can not find the sample on YFull I guess it has not been added yet.

Pax Augusta
25-09-20, 03:07
You are correct. The three ORC's should be the Nuragic samples, if I am not mistaken again.

Furthermore they added these:
R474, Etruscan (700-600BCE): J-CTS6190

R116, Roman (0-200CE): J-Z631

R54, Abruzzo region (1280-1430CE): J-Y23094

Along with the Viking from the recent Study.
VK346, Viking (400-1100CE): J-Y36972


It unfortunately seems that among the ancient samples only Mokrin is missing...

According to Trojet it falls:

"The downstream branch, J-Z597 (TMRCA 4400 ybp), looks pretty western Balkan, so it likely moved further west around the time this Mokrin sample lived. We already have I4331, dated ~3600 ybp, from southern Croatia which was J-Z597>Z2507>Y15058. And recently a BigY tester with origin from Krk, Croatia, tested Y146400+ FGC64027+ FGC64043-, which means he is splitting YFull's J-Y146400 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/) branch:

https://i.imgur.com/2hXqSDx.png

"And since I can not find the sample/split on YFull I guess it has not been added yet.


Yes, I4331 (1631-1521 calBCE ,Y15058) seems quite upstream to R474 Etruscan (700-600BCE, J-CTS6190).


https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15058/


Do you know why I4331 has not been added to YFull?


@Trojet

Is accurate that I4331 can be further assigned to J-Y15058>FT92472(xZ38241,BY48225) or at YFull’s J-Z38240 level?


https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-analysis-of-i4331-j2b2a-l283-bronze-age-croatia-mathieson-et-al-2018/ (https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-analysis-of-i4331-j2b2a-l283-bronze-age-croatia-mathieson-et-al-2018/)


J-Z38240

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/

Trojet
25-09-20, 13:30
Yes, I4331 (1631-1521 calBCE ,Y15058) seems quite upstream to R474 Etruscan (700-600BCE, J-CTS6190).
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15058/
Do you know why I4331 has not been added to YFull?

@Trojet
Is accurate that I4331 can be further assigned to J-Y15058>FT92472(xZ38241,BY48225) or at YFull’s J-Z38240 level?

https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-analysis-of-i4331-j2b2a-l283-bronze-age-croatia-mathieson-et-al-2018/ (https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-analysis-of-i4331-j2b2a-l283-bronze-age-croatia-mathieson-et-al-2018/)

J-Z38240
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/

Yes, that's correct. I4331 remains at YFull's J-Z38240* level, as he is also negative for the newly discovered subclade, J-BY161223.

It now seems YFull is adding ancient samples that aren't "shotgun sequenced" or not very high coverage, as is the case with the Nuragic/Sardinian samples. So I expect they will eventually add I4331 as well (or the samples from "The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe"). They may not add the Mokrin J-Z615* sample until the relevant paper is published (it's currently in pre-print).

milotskenderi
29-09-20, 03:07
Single males ran through my family for five generations! My father died young and i had no opportunity to ask him about our ancestors. Days ago i got my results - I belong to J-L283 paternal haplogroup.

Thank you all for organizing and running things here; as a result i know myself more.

Looking forward to making my contributions.

Aaron1981
29-09-20, 04:39
Maybe but from which direction did they come from? And they didn't come as just pure e-v13. If they came from the north/germany it is possible they had i1 too

There is no way in hell E-V13 is from central Europe. All the ancient samples of E-V13 are autosomally southern European. ie: Neolithic farmer.

Progon
30-09-20, 07:42
There is no way in hell E-V13 is from central Europe. All the ancient samples of E-V13 are autosomally southern European. ie: Neolithic farmer.

We have barely any ancient E-V13 sample. And every sample in Southern Europe is mostly Sardinian-like, like Myceneans etc etc etc. The diversity of E-V13 is not in Balkans, the split likely happened somewhere in Eastern Central Europe. They were still mostly Neolithic Farmer.

Aspurg
30-09-20, 16:28
Hmm, I didn't pay attention to these Nuragics. I knew one was related to modern Sardinians but not that these Nuragics are all basals unrelated to each other... ORC007 is YP91, ORC008 J-Z600*, ORC003 and I10553 are J-YP157, Nuragics have more basal diversity than the entire Albania/Balkans + V.Vanik/Mokrin aDNA..

Mokrin result and modern spread shows that beginning with J-Z615* J-L283 was widespread. If it expanded from the Steppe what are these Nuragics doing there?? In any case it is clear J-Z615 arrived and spread around the (Western) Balkans.

Progon
30-09-20, 18:11
Hmm, I didn't pay attention to these Nuragics. I knew one was related to modern Sardinians but not that these Nuragics are all basals unrelated to each other... ORC007 is YP91, ORC008 J-Z600*, ORC003 and I10553 are J-YP157, Nuragics have more basal diversity than the entire Albania/Balkans + V.Vanik/Mokrin aDNA..

Mokrin result and modern spread shows that beginning with J-Z615* J-L283 was widespread. If it expanded from the Steppe what are these Nuragics doing there?? In any case it is clear J-Z615 arrived and spread around the (Western) Balkans.

Except for some very minor I2a subclades, (R1b, R1a majority) and some Q subclades none of the others are from the Steppes. Neither J2b2.

Trojet
30-09-20, 18:13
Hmm, I didn't pay attention to these Nuragics. I knew one was related to modern Sardinians but not that these Nuragics are all basals unrelated to each other... ORC007 is YP91, ORC008 J-Z600*, ORC003 and I10553 are J-YP157, Nuragics have more basal diversity than the entire Albania/Balkans + V.Vanik/Mokrin aDNA..

Mokrin result and modern spread shows that beginning with J-Z615* J-L283 was widespread. If it expanded from the Steppe what are these Nuragics doing there?? In any case it is clear J-Z615 arrived and spread around the (Western) Balkans.

It seems you have trouble interpreting the YTree, again :grin:. ORC008 is not J-Z600*. He has no coverage for YP157 and Z585, but negative for Z615 (you can see this if you click "i"). So considering the other two samples, I think there is a good possibility he is J-YP157 too.

For ORC007, I'm actually a bit surprised by YFull going with that call, due to low coverage. He has only one positive read for YP91 (which could be due to ancient DNA damage), with everything else at that level no coverage. Z600 and YP157 have no coverage either. (Unless they found he shares a Novel SNP with the French J-YP91* sample).

Aspurg
30-09-20, 20:58
It seems you have trouble interpreting the YTree, again . ORC008 is not J-Z600*. He has no coverage for YP157 and Z585, but negative for Z615 (you can see this if you click "i"). So considering the other two samples, I think there is a good possibility he is J-YP157 too.
For ORC007, I'm actually a bit surprised by YFull going with that call, due to low coverage. He has only one positive read for YP91 (which could be due to ancient DNA damage), with everything else at that level no coverage. Z600 and YP157 have no coverage either. (Unless they found he shares a Novel SNP with the French J-YP91* sample).

No, I do pay close attention to "i".:grin: My main point was: he is Z615-. This is where the major expansion begins. So ORC007 has only one read, but as you say it might be that he shares something with the French sample. YFull information now comes in incrementals that are separated by a month or so (updates) so I guess we'll have to wait a bit for that information. They started adding plenty of samples to YFull including some ambiguous quality samples (like one Italian E-V13 sample). I10553 and ORC003 might end up sharing some SNPs. I10553 also comes from a separate study but all samples are from Perdasdefogu. 4 out of 6 Nuragics from there are J-L283. So this site is of some interest for J-L283.

ORC008 might be also YP113, there are some Sardinians in that clade, albeit unlike YP157 they seem to have much smaller TMRCA (they share 37 SNP's).

You mentioned that there was one Romanian Geno 2.0 sample that was Z585- (or similar)?

This way it looks like Z615 might have been present in the Slovenia-S.Hungary/Vojvodina range before spreading to the Balkans.



Except for some very minor I2a subclades, (R1b, R1a majority) and some Q subclades none of the others are from the Steppes. Neither J2b2.

Interestingly one might add N-P189.2, common in one Old Herzegovina clan Banjani and Pivljani. This hg was found in Botai culture, and subsequently in the Poltavka culture (R1b heavy) so this line also expanded with the proto-IE's.

Aspurg
30-09-20, 21:52
Some Romanian J-L283's, based on NGS and STR matches of samples from studies with the NGS determined clades.

1. J-L283>Z631>Y22894 (13) - 8 Basarab's from Sibiu, 1 Basarab from Gorj, 1 Piatra Niamt, 1 Ploiesti, 1 Romanian from Germany, 1 (Barbarii et al). This is one of proto-Romanian clusters, most common in Basarabs and found in 5 studies, albeit in no commercially tested Romanians (shows how poorly they are tested). We do know their dominant surname (Basarab).
2. J-L283>Z631>??? (5) - 3 from Brasov, 2 from Dolj. Likely Z631, dys388=14 cluster, unknown sublclade below. It doesn't seem any identified clade is defined by 388=14 and these are not with identical STR's, 15/17, but they all share 388=14.
3. J-L283>Y37121>Y85328 (2) - Romanian from Smeeni, also RO3 from Vrancea county (nearby).
4. J-L283>Y20899 (2) - H44 Oradea, and one Romanian from Germany. Match most closely Hungarian from Budapest BuCa_026 17/17.
5. J-L283>BY81991 (2)- Romania at YFull is in cluster with an Italian (American flag) but much closer to him are Bulgarians. Also probably no. 50 from Barbarii et al.
6. J-L283>Z631>Y191359 (2) - With 2 Albanians. Also no. 160 from Ploiesti likely is Y191359.

I know also there was one PH1602 from here.

Trojet
01-10-20, 03:08
No, I do pay close attention to "i".:grin: My main point was: he is Z615-. This is where the major expansion begins. So ORC007 has only one read, but as you say it might be that he shares something with the French sample. YFull information now comes in incrementals that are separated by a month or so (updates) so I guess we'll have to wait a bit for that information. They started adding plenty of samples to YFull including some ambiguous quality samples (like one Italian E-V13 sample).
I10553 and ORC003 might end up sharing some SNPs. I10553 also comes from a separate study but all samples are from Perdasdefogu. 4 out of 6 Nuragics from there are J-L283. So this site is of some interest for J-L283.
ORC008 might be also YP113, there are some Sardinians in that clade, albeit unlike YP157 they seem to have much smaller TMRCA (they share 37 SNP's.
You mentioned that there was one Romanian Geno 2.0 sample that was Z585- (or similar)?
This way it looks like Z615 might have been present in the Slovenia-S.Hungary/Vojvodina range before spreading to the Balkans.

Well, I'm not sure what you meant, I just wanted to clarify that ORC008 is not J-Z600*.

Yes, the location and timeframe of all these Nuragic J-L283 samples is the same. So considering the phylogenetic placement, I think ORC008 may well be J-YP157 too.
And yes, there is a Romanian on Geno 2.0 that's tested L283+ and Z585- so he can be anywhere in between.

I would agree in regards to J-Z615 expansion. For the expansion between J-Z622 and Z615, I think we need older aDNA. Otherwise, J-L283 itself did migrate from further east, going by YFull estimates sometime between 5700 ybp and EBA (or at J-Z622).

EDIT: I see YFull has added KDC001, ~3800 ybp, MBA North Caucasus,~J-L283* (Z622? Z600- YP91-). There is also the modern Armenian J-L283*, and RISE408, LBA Armenia, J-L283+ (Z622? Z600- YP91?). They don't seem to share any Novel SNPs amongst themselves either.

Trojet
01-10-20, 13:48
Some Romanian J-L283's, based on NGS and STR matches of samples from studies with the NGS determined clades.
1. J-L283>Z631>Y22894 (13) - 8 Basarab's from Sibiu, 1 Basarab from Gorj, 1 Piatra Niamt, 1 Ploiesti, 1 Romanian from Germany, 1 (Barbarii et al). This is one of proto-Romanian clusters, most common in Basarabs and found in 5 studies, albeit in no commercially tested Romanians (shows how poorly they are tested). We do know their dominant surname (Basarab).
2. J-L283>Z631>??? (5) - 3 from Brasov, 2 from Dolj. Likely Z631, dys388=14 cluster, unknown sublclade below. It doesn't seem any identified clade is defined by 388=14 and these are not with identical STR's, 15/17, but they all share 388=14.
3. J-L283>Y37121>Y85328 (2) - Romanian from Smeeni, also RO3 from Vrancea county (nearby).
4. J-L283>Y20899 (2) - H44 Oradea, and one Romanian from Germany. Match most closely Hungarian from Budapest BuCa_026 17/17.
5. J-L283>BY81991 (2)- Romania at YFull is in cluster with an Italian (American flag) but much closer to him are Bulgarians. Also probably no. 50 from Barbarii et al.
6. J-L283>Z631>Y191359 (2) - With 2 Albanians. Also no. 160 from Ploiesti likely is Y191359.
I know also there was one PH1602 from here.

1) J-Z631>Y22894 = "proto-Romanian"? Not sure what you mean by that, but STRs suggest this cluster is more diverse in the western Balkans. Its TMRCA seems to be no older than about 1000 ybp, so it could've migrated there fairly recently.

4) I'm guessing you're basing this on DYS19=14. I would be very careful in classifying such haplotypes under J-Y20899 at low resolution. DYS19=14 has proven to appear in many different J-L283 branches. Though I've seen a couple of J-Y20899>PH1751 looking haplotypes in the region Romania/Hungary tested at higher resolution.
Btw, for J-Y20899 the most interesting sample seems to be 330960. His paternal origin is from Italy (doesn't know anything more specific). He is tested Z1296+ Z1297-. At ~29/111 from J-Y20899 samples, he likely splits that level. 29/111 on average is ~2900 ybp, but hopefully he takes NGS at some point.

Anyway, none of these J-L283 branches seem "native" to Romania to me, with the possible exception of J-BY81991. Yes, the American sample is with origin from Rome, Italy.

Aspurg
01-10-20, 23:49
1) J-Z631>Y22894 = "proto-Romanian"? Not sure what you mean by that, but STRs suggest this cluster is more diverse in the western Balkans. Its TMRCA seems to be no older than about 1000 ybp, so it could've migrated there fairly recently.


Anyway, none of these J-L283 branches seem "native" to Romania to me, with the possible exception of J-BY81991. Yes, the American sample is with origin from Rome, Italy.

This is the only Basarab cluster found in two separate regions, the most common Basarab cluster, so likely this is the hg of the Basarab. Also it pops up in other studies. So it must be proto-Romanian because of commonality and the likely Basarab link. Though ofc proto-Romanian and "native to the territory of Romania" are two different things, and indeed proto-Romanians proper who at some point dwelled with proto-Albanians (due to shared loans) are not native to modern day Romania that is their language, and so most of these J-L283 are good candidates for proto-Romanians.

For J-BY81991 check Bulgarian 575881 who is much closer to Romanian than Italian and shares some specific STR's for that clade (dys385b=14, dys464d=19, dys458=18).



Btw, for J-Y20899 the most interesting sample seems to be 330960. His paternal origin is from Italy (doesn't know anything more specific). He is tested Z1296+ Z1297-. At ~29/111 from J-Y20899 samples, he likely splits that level. 29/111 on average is ~2900 ybp, but hopefully he takes NGS at some point.

There are lots of mutations (8) which define the Y21045 and PH4679 levels (as the Sardinian has no STR's) and also many STR's.

330960 is:
DYS640 12→13 TRUE
DYS537 11→12 FAIL
DYS19 15→14 FAIL
DYS510 19→18 FAIL
DYS444 12→13 FAIL
DYS557 16→17 TRUE
DYS712 29→30 FAIL


He either splits the Y21045 or he is Y21045-. He is "probably" positive for a few Y21045 level SNP's. Z38300 is defined by dys434=18, dys712=27, he fails on both, at the Y20899 level he has roughly half of defining STR's but considering the results for the Y21045/PH4679 level and above he should be Y20899-. GD is of secondary importance in comparison to defining STR's. He might also share something with the Sardinian.



4) I'm guessing you're basing this on DYS19=14. I would be very careful in classifying such haplotypes under J-Y20899 at low resolution. DYS19=14 has proven to appear in many different J-L283 branches. Though I've seen a couple of J-Y20899>PH1751 looking haplotypes in the region Romania/Hungary tested at higher resolution.

Of course it is the dys19=14. While it might pop up in other clades, this STR does define Z38300. Is there evidence any other clade is defined by dys19=14?

BuCa_026 Budapest, Hungary [Hungarian] 12 24 14 10 14,17 12 12 11 28 16 16 19 10 13 17 17 9 23 14 12 21 9
(I reduced H4 by 1)

J-Y161916 is defined by 448=20, 439=11, 549=12 so he is Y161916-. Y20899 is defined by 635=22 (among others), so this sample might be Y20899-. Might be some J-Z38300*.

Progon
02-10-20, 22:02
Classical Illyrians were heavily influenced by Danubian Urnfield culture, if not they were descendants of them. So, we should look for a possible candidate spreading from around Central Europe from MBA to LBA.

Trojet
06-10-20, 03:51
There are lots of mutations (8) which define the Y21045 and PH4679 levels (as the Sardinian has no STR's) and also many STR's.
330960 is:
DYS640 12→13 TRUE
DYS537 11→12 FAIL
DYS19 15→14 FAIL
DYS510 19→18 FAIL
DYS444 12→13 FAIL
DYS557 16→17 TRUE
DYS712 29→30 FAIL
He either splits the Y21045 or he is Y21045-. He is "probably" positive for a few Y21045 level SNP's. Z38300 is defined by dys434=18, dys712=27, he fails on both, at the Y20899 level he has roughly half of defining STR's but considering the results for the Y21045/PH4679 level and above he should be Y20899-. GD is of secondary importance in comparison to defining STR's. He might also share something with the Sardinian.

He is at least "fully developed" J-Y21045. His SNP test result (Z1296+ Z1297-) in combination with DYS650=14 seals it... True, he has DYS19=15, but he has likely backmutated there. You put too much trust in STR mutations, you know well they are prone to backmutations.
I guess you mean DYS534 and DYS712. Anyway, they don't seem to be predictors for J-Z38300 here (I know you're using YFull's STR mutations, but I have data that contradicts this...)


at the Y20899 level he has roughly half of defining STR's but considering the results for the Y21045/PH4679 level and above he should be Y20899-

All the defining STRs for J-Y20899 are for the currently fully developed samples (i.e. the TMRCA of J-Y85522 and J-PH1751). So if he is hypothetically splitting the J-Y20899 level, of course he wouldn't have all the currently defining STRs. He has one key value which is DYS540=13, while everyone above J-Y20899 has 12, including other Z638 branches. And considering that within J-Y21045 his STRs are closer to J-Y20899 samples, I still think it's more likely he is splitting this subclade.


Of course it is the dys19=14. While it might pop up in other clades, this STR does define Z38300. Is there evidence any other clade is defined by dys19=14?
BuCa_026 Budapest, Hungary [Hungarian] 12 24 14 10 14,17 12 12 11 28 16 16 19 10 13 17 17 9 23 14 12 21 9
(I reduced H4 by 1)
J-Y161916 is defined by 448=20, 439=11, 549=12 so he is Y161916-. Y20899 is defined by 635=22 (among others), so this sample might be Y20899-. Might be some J-Z38300*.

DYS19=14 starts with at least J-PH4679. Sardinians don't have any STRs as you pointed out, so we don't know what they have on DYS19.

My point was that you can't reliably predict it based on DYS19=14 with limited STRs. Look at J-M241 project, DYS19=14 appears in many different L283 branches. After all, it's one mutation from 15. And so without higher resolution or SNP testing, that Hungarian haplotype can fit in many different L283 branches..

TaktikatEMalet
07-10-20, 17:05
Classical Illyrians were heavily influenced by Danubian Urnfield culture, if not they were descendants of them. So, we should look for a possible candidate spreading from around Central Europe from MBA to LBA.

It is very difficult to place who belongs to what without more ancient y dna, which y dna have been found in Urnfield culture so far?

According to modern y dna j2b l283 is more northern than j2as and j1s so it fits with "Urnfield culture" regionally however Urnfield culture was widespread even further north where j2b l283 is missing.

As of now v13 makes more sense for Urnfield, however the spread of v13 in southern places like Greece maybe also rules it out because Urnfield didn't have much contact with Greece. Unless, v13 spread much later in Greece through post Urnfield mixed balkans

Maybe a map of r1b Z2103 across the balkans could also help identify the Urnfield culture because this is another major clade in balkans. Or it could be that they were wiped out and only left small traces of i2a2, r1b L51, pre-slavic r1a or even some i1. Some of the smaller clades in balkans today

Wanderer
24-10-20, 18:04
It is very difficult to place who belongs to what without more ancient y dna, which y dna have been found in Urnfield culture so far?

According to modern y dna j2b l283 is more northern than j2as and j1s so it fits with "Urnfield culture" regionally however Urnfield culture was widespread even further north where j2b l283 is missing.

As of now v13 makes more sense for Urnfield, however the spread of v13 in southern places like Greece maybe also rules it out because Urnfield didn't have much contact with Greece. Unless, v13 spread much later in Greece through post Urnfield mixed balkans

Maybe a map of r1b Z2103 across the balkans could also help identify the Urnfield culture because this is another major clade in balkans. Or it could be that they were wiped out and only left small traces of i2a2, r1b L51, pre-slavic r1a or even some i1. Some of the smaller clades in balkans todayThis is because J-L283 is not urmfield culture. Its balkan / west medditernean
But during roman times spread out. Romans didnt have a large campaign in scandanavia which is probably why there its almost non existant but romans did also use mercenaries at the time. Which is why its probably spread out so much.
R1b i imagine is definitely urmfield culture.

J L283 culture - printed cardium culture.
And hybrid balcanic cultures

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201024/490ba24fced9be66a3486e03691ab707.gif

Wanderer
07-11-20, 00:42
Is it possible that J-L283 is a trojan haplogroup?
1600 BC its in the balkans

Sardinia J-L283
1200BC
Same time of trojan war

The J-L283 samples are found in Cagliari which is the territory if the ilienses tribes.


The trojans were related to thracians

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilienses



A fourth component part of the population was the army of Iolaus, consisting of Thespians and men from Attica, which put in at Sardinia and founded Olbia [...] Be this as it may, there are still today places in Sardinia called Iolaia, and Iolaus is worshipped by the inhabitants.[...] When Troy was taken, among those Trojans who fled were those who escaped with Aeneas. A part of them, carried from their course by winds, reached Sardinia and intermarried with the Greeks already settled there (Iolaes). But the non-Greek element (Balares ?) were prevented from coming to blows with the Greeks and Trojans, for the two enemies were evenly matched in all warlike equipment, while the river Thorsus (Tirso), flowing between their territories, made both equally afraid to cross it.






In what was once their territory, very important are the findings of Mycenaean artifacts, confirming the wealth of exchanges between these two ancient populations. Of particular interest are also the Oxhide ingot, which perhaps came from Cyprus and was discovered in various locations, including the Cagliari area, in the province of Ogliastra and other central areas. Between 1300 and 1200 BC in central-southern Sardinia was produced a kind of gray pottery also called "gray Sardinian"; remains of this type of pottery have been found in Kommos, Crete, and at Cannatello near Agrigento, Sicily.[11]



Troy was founded about 3000bc

torzio
07-11-20, 02:10
Is it possible that J-L283 is a trojan haplogroup?
1600 BC its in the balkans

Sardinia J-L283
1200BC
Same time of trojan war

The J-L283 samples are found in Cagliari which is the territory if the ilienses tribes.


The trojans were related to thracians

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilienses








Troy was founded about 3000bc


level 6 of Troy , when the Trojan war was .......was calculated at 1185BC , not 1600BC

Wanderer
07-11-20, 02:26
level 6 of Troy , when the Trojan war was .......was calculated at 1185BC , not 1600BC


Trojans likely have some origins from europe. And stem from proto dardanians from the balkans.

Trojan war was about that time
The city if troy has been around since abt 3000BC

Wanderer
07-11-20, 02:35
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanians_(Trojan)

The Dardanoi (Greek: Δάρδανοι; its
anglicized modern terms being Dardanians or Dardans) in classical writings were either the same people as, or a people closely related to, the Trojans, an ancient people of the Troad, located in northwestern Anatolia. The Dardanoi derived their name from Dardanus, the mythical founder of Dardania, an ancient city in the Troad. Rule of the Troad was divided between Dardania and Troy. Homer makes a clear distinction between the Trojans and the Dardanoi.[1]


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani


The Dardani (/ˈdɑːrdənaɪ/; Ancient Greek: Δαρδάνιοι, Δάρδανοι; Latin: Dardani) were a Paleo-Balkan tribe, which lived in a region which was named Dardania after their settlement there.[1][2] The eastern parts of the region were at the Thraco-Illyrian contact zone. In archaeological research, Illyrian names are predominant in western Dardania (present-day Kosovo), while Thracian names are mostly found in eastern Dardania (present-day south-eastern Serbia). Thracian names are absent in western Dardania; some Illyrian names appear in the eastern parts. Thus, their identification as either an Illyrian or Thracian tribe has been a subject of debate; the ethnolinguistic relationship between the two groups being largely uncertain and debated itself as well.[3][4] The correspondence of Illyrian names - including those of the ruling elite - in Dardania with those of the southern Illyrians suggests a "thracianization" of parts of Dardania.[5][6] Strabo in his geographica mentions them as one of the three strongest Illyrian peoples, the other two being the Ardiaei and Autariatae.[7][8]

If albanians partly decend from dardani maybe theres a connection.

torzio
07-11-20, 04:05
Trojans likely have some origins from europe. And stem from proto dardanians from the balkans.

Trojan war was about that time
The city if troy has been around since abt 3000BC


There are 9 levels of troy from as you state, 3000BC ish to the Roman occupation which is level 9b .....................it has already been proved that level 6 circa 1185bc is the only one that showed that a war took place...............
Level 5 showed major earthquake damage to the city...................the assumption was , after the earthquake the walls of level 6 where not fully fixed when raiders/sea peoples/ greeks whoever attacked an already damaged city

yes there where dardanians living in the Troad area of Anatolia, south side of the ancient Thracian city of Sestos ................are these dardanians the same as kosovo dardanian ....I have no idea

bigsnake49
07-11-20, 15:47
Level 6 shows extremely small number of arrowheads and other war implements for being a 10 year old major war. A raid perhaps, a major 10 year war no.

blevins13
07-11-20, 18:05
level 6 of Troy , when the Trojan war was .......was calculated at 1185BC , not 1600BC

Dna is needed from Troy......


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

torzio
07-11-20, 19:13
Level 6 shows extremely small number of arrowheads and other war implements for being a 10 year old major war. A raid perhaps, a major 10 year war no.


very much doubt it lasted 10 years....maybe it was 10 months

The walled part of Troy was only the citadel , which housed the royals/chieftains etc.........the major town was surrounded by wooden walls with ditches etc outside the Citadel,....arrow heads and other war stuff where found in the fields outside of the citadel

I have not checked on the latest news from Troy for over 1 year ..............but check the latest news on google.........

The questions seems to be if dardanians of the Troad where the same as the Dardanians of modern Kosovo ............as I said, I do not know, there is a big possibility they are the same ethnic people

Polska
07-11-20, 20:40
Additional samples should be on the way from Ezero Culture (Bulgaria) and parts of Aegean region and parts of Anatolia (western Turkey) that will hopefully shed additional light on migration of L283. It looks like it moved from the north to the south at this point, due to 4100 year old L283 Z615 sample found in Mokrin, Serbia. Mokrin=Maros=Eastern Bell Beaker associated culture. So maybe the Proto Illyrians were some sort of fusion of L283 from the north who mixed with R1b Z2103 that was already there or recent arrivals as well (maybe Vucedol culture?). Obviously this is all conjecture, so my fingers are crossed that upcoming ancient samples from the Balkans or near vicinity will yield some L283 and shed some additional light on its movement in the region and, hopefully, how it got there in the first place.

torzio
07-11-20, 22:13
Additional samples should be on the way from Ezero Culture (Bulgaria) and parts of Aegean region and parts of Anatolia (western Turkey) that will hopefully shed additional light on migration of L283. It looks like it moved from the north to the south at this point, due to 4100 year old L283 Z615 sample found in Mokrin, Serbia. Mokrin=Maros=Eastern Bell Beaker associated culture. So maybe the Proto Illyrians were some sort of fusion of L283 from the north who mixed with R1b Z2103 that was already there or recent arrivals as well (maybe Vucedol culture?). Obviously this is all conjecture, so my fingers are crossed that upcoming ancient samples from the Balkans or near vicinity will yield some L283 and shed some additional light on its movement in the region and, hopefully, how it got there in the first place.

Serbia was never illyrian , it was thracian mostly and dardanian.......it became Moesia later on , one of the 4 major thracian groups, odrysian,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom ...... getae and dacians are the other groups

Wanderer
07-11-20, 22:24
Found some page showing large extensive data of ancient DNA samples.
Pretty cool. Has a map and spreadsheets with lots of information.

www.indo-european.eu/ancient-dna/

For the map here is a link but you can find it through navigation.
The spreadsheet is interesting. Theres more ancient samples of J-L283 then I didn't know about that arent on Yfull. Or at least I didn't notice were ancient.

Polska
07-11-20, 22:34
Serbia was never illyrian , it was thracian mostly and dardanian.......it became Moesia later on , one of the 4 major thracian groups, odrysian,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom ...... getae and dacians are the other groups

Sure. All I’m saying is that the L283 branches associated with Illyrians descend from L283 Z597 and downstream branches (see L283 Z38240 ancient Illyrian/Dalmatian from 1600BC). L283 Z615 Serbian/Mokrin sample is the oldest L283 ever discovered, is upstream from Z597, and comes from further inland, so it plots as though ancient Illyrians, in part, arrived in Balkans from a north to south vector. This is in the context of L283 being a Proto Illyrian haplogroup.

Wanderer
08-11-20, 00:01
I noticed that there was a viking
Kit from öland sweden which is an island next not too far from denmark and slavic / northern balkan countries.

Viking Y36972 :
z631 -> z1043 -> z84242-> Y36972
about 1000 AD

Then there is also a german:
z631 -> z1043
About 1300 ad

Roma sample -> z631 is about 200BC - 0

Talking about the age of the remains. Not tmrca estimation

Im wondering if early z631 actually migrated toward the baltics/lower scandanavia from the around the central medditernean and adriatic. Which is probably why you end up with J-L283 in various places like germanic and slavic countries like germany, croatia, british ( danish invaders), russia. May explain russian and spanish kit J-L283 common lineage and why theres a good handful of spanish J-L283 meanwhile not the case for french which borders spain and germany and italy.

But strangley enough J-L283 is extra rare. In ireland or france. Theres a good handful of british J-L283, but not so in Ireland. And france is huge. Which makes me wonder if french paternal lineages are mostly celtic and scando paternal lineages are very rare in france. It seems obvious maybe but i heard that normans invaded france before so I thought there would be more j-L283. The only french J-L283 are also northern french and its very few. One borders belgium. I need to read more admittingly i don't know so much about france history dealing with vikings tho.

Edit there is one southern french but its close to spain. Theres none in central france or central western france

There is a arguement for bottleneck effect in sardinia because its an isolated island. Weirdly theres a good handful of british J-L283 and only about 1 or 2 irish J-L283. Which is right next to britain. Both are large islands. Very close to each other.
J-L283 in greeks is also very rare
And to me greeks with J-L283 actually come from albanians or other balkanic peoples.

TaktikatEMalet
08-11-20, 01:54
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanians_(Trojan)



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani


If albanians partly decend from dardani maybe theres a connection.

I have had this thought before which may explain the greater amount of j2b l283 in north albanians (dardani were usually north east of illyrians geographically although they were classified as an illyrian tribe anyway and had mostly illyrian & some thracian names). There was also an influx of kosovar albanians into north albania post communism

torzio
08-11-20, 03:34
Sure. All I’m saying is that the L283 branches associated with Illyrians descend from L283 Z597 and downstream branches (see L283 Z38240 ancient Illyrian/Dalmatian from 1600BC). L283 Z615 Serbian/Mokrin sample is the oldest L283 ever discovered, is upstream from Z597, and comes from further inland, so it plots as though ancient Illyrians, in part, arrived in Balkans from a north to south vector. This is in the context of L283 being a Proto Illyrian haplogroup.


Yes, Illyrians have steppe in their mix and no anatolian
Thracians have steppe and anatolian
Dardanians have anatolian
Greeks have anatolian

Are you saying L283 has steppe and anatolian or just steppe ?

torzio
08-11-20, 18:58
very much doubt it lasted 10 years....maybe it was 10 months

The walled part of Troy was only the citadel , which housed the royals/chieftains etc.........the major town was surrounded by wooden walls with ditches etc outside the Citadel,....arrow heads and other war stuff where found in the fields outside of the citadel

I have not checked on the latest news from Troy for over 1 year ..............but check the latest news on google.........

The questions seems to be if dardanians of the Troad where the same as the Dardanians of modern Kosovo ............as I said, I do not know, there is a big possibility they are the same ethnic people


latest I found on Troy

The Lost City of Troy | Full Documentary | TRACKS173,351 views
•Feb 29, 2020

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSSjZ5_Pi04

Polska
08-11-20, 19:18
Yes, Illyrians have steppe in their mix and no anatolian
Thracians have steppe and anatolian
Dardanians have anatolian
Greeks have anatolian

Are you saying L283 has steppe and anatolian or just steppe ?

The ancient L283s all downstream from Z615 (Z38240 Dalmatian/Illyrian , CTS6190 Etruscan, Z631 Roman, and the Z615 Mokrin/Maros) had healthy amounts of steppe ancestry (around 30% autosomal steppe) with no autosomal ancestry from near east/Anatolia.

The Z600 and basal L283 from Sardinia had no Anatolian/near eastern autosomal ancestry, but also had very little to no steppe ancestry. Bit of a head scratcher, but probably the result of being part of an isolated population in Sardinia for many centuries. These Sardinian L283s were from the Naragic Civilization, which descends from Bonnanaro and Polada Cultures from northern Italy = Bell Beakers.

Ancient L283/Z600 in Sardinia and Z615/Z597 in Balkans point to north —-> south migration from a possible homeland in/near Central European Alps. I’m under the impression that L283 is a Caucasian haplogroup and crossed the southern steppe en route to Central Europe based on ancient basal L283 from Karbino Balkaria in southern Russia and current living kits from Armenia. We need more ancient samples from area between Balkans and Karbino Balkaria to confirm this path, though.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

Progon
08-11-20, 19:42
If we go by archeological data, J2b2-L283 being the Proto-Illyrian Y-DNA doesn't quite fit. They were already present in Balkans before the Illyrian tribes moved down south from Danube Valley during MBA LBA period.


There they swiftly became dominant over the local Neolithic farmers of 'Old Europe', and then over Minoan Crete (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/GreeceMinoans.htm), while also occupying many of the Greek isles and possibly even the Anatolian coast in the form of the Ahhiyawa (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsMiddEast/AnatoliaAhhiyawa.htm). It is fairly common for a newly-arrived warrior culture to impose a fresh layer of ruling nobility on any existing society, and Indo-Europeans seemed especially good at this when the preceding culture was Neolithic. Their last hurrah seemingly came with the conquest of Troy (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsMiddEast/AnatoliaTroy.htm), calculated here to have taken place around 1183 BC. By then climate-induced drought had not only resulted in tremendous political instability in the entire eastern Mediterranean region (making the attack on Troy possible in the first place), it had also brought about the fall of the Hittite (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsMiddEast/AnatoliaHittites.htm#New%20Hittite%20Empire) empire (Troy's major ally), and triggered migrations by the West-Indo-European (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/BarbarianWestIndoEuropeans.htm) settlers along the Danube and the South-West Indo-European settlers of Romania and - by now - the northern Balkans. They began pushing southwards in a tremendous wave of advance, perhaps as early as about 1250 BC. The possibility exists that the rise of the Urnfield (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/BarbarianCelts.htm#Urnfield) culture from around 1300 BC (locally represented by the Gava culture - see map below) could also have been instrumental in initiating this migration.
These people were in the process of forming into historically-recognisable tribes by this time, or at least did so as a result of their migrations. The proto-Illyrians (not a single homogenous group in itself, but seemingly all sorts of odds-and-ends from the Danubian communities) and proto-Epirotes (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/GreeceEpirus.htm) soon occupied the entire western Balkan coast north of Greece itself. The former perhaps did not find enough land or resources, as they soon spilled over the Adriatic and into south-western Italy (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/ItalyKingdom.htm#Italics) in the form of the Iapyges (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/ItalyIapyges.htm) (seemingly between the eleventh and tenth centuries BC). The proto-Thracians (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/GreeceThrace.htm) took the south-eastern corner of the Balkans, everything between the Balkans Mountains (which run through the centre of modern Bulgaria (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/EasternBulgaria.htm#Modern)) and the area around Thessalonica. The proto-Dacians - closely related to the Thracians at least - took (or remained in) territory to the north of the Thracians, in Romania and Moldova (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/EasternMoldavia.htm#Modern). The proto-Phrygians (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsMiddEast/AnatoliaPhrygia.htm) took a similar route but carried on going until they had crossed into Anatolia - in fact they may have begun this movement as early as 1450 BC. The story for proto-Armenians (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsMiddEast/AnatoliaArmenia.htm) is far less certain, but they were also part of this general grouping at some point. The proto-Macedonians (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/GreeceMacedonia.htm) took the bulk of the mountainous territory between the Thracians and the Epirotes, while the proto-Dorians, Aeolians, and Ionians continued on into Mycenaean Greece and the islands of the Aegean, seemingly in superior numbers and with aggression enough to see off even the Mycenaeans.

https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/BarbarianBalkans.htm

torzio
08-11-20, 22:15
The ancient L283s all downstream from Z615 (Z38240 Dalmatian/Illyrian , CTS6190 Etruscan, Z631 Roman, and the Z615 Mokrin/Maros) had healthy amounts of steppe ancestry (around 30% autosomal steppe) with no autosomal ancestry from near east/Anatolia.

The Z600 and basal L283 from Sardinia had no Anatolian/near eastern autosomal ancestry, but also had very little to no steppe ancestry. Bit of a head scratcher, but probably the result of being part of an isolated population in Sardinia for many centuries. These Sardinian L283s were from the Naragic Civilization, which descends from Bonnanaro and Polada Cultures from northern Italy = Bell Beakers.

Ancient L283/Z600 in Sardinia and Z615/Z597 in Balkans point to north —-> south migration from a possible homeland in/near Central European Alps. I’m under the impression that L283 is a Caucasian haplogroup and crossed the southern steppe en route to Central Europe based on ancient basal L283 from Karbino Balkaria in southern Russia and current living kits from Armenia. We need more ancient samples from area between Balkans and Karbino Balkaria to confirm this path, though.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/


I have been saying this about the Balkars ( Karbino Balkaria) who are from the north-caucasus , for a very long time

Polska
09-11-20, 03:05
I have been saying this about the Balkars ( Karbino Balkaria) who are from the north-caucasus , for a very long time

Looking at living samples in the Karachay Balkaria DNA Project, they are heavy on G2a1, G2a2, J2a1, and R1a. There is one J2b, but not sure if he’s L283 or older branch.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/KBalkarDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

TaktikatEMalet
09-11-20, 13:33
If we go by archeological data, J2b2-L283 being the Proto-Illyrian Y-DNA doesn't quite fit. They were already present in Balkans before the Illyrian tribes moved down south from Danube Valley during MBA LBA period.

It could be that Urnfield became known as "illyrians" later on by the Greeks OR illyrians were in balkans before reported years but didn't have a big united tribe until later on as is the case with most cultures/tribes. Don't forget that there isn't much written history from illyrians themself so this name may have been given to them by the Greeks. All we know is that illyrians existed for a long time and they liked snakes/serpents

If you look at Greek history you can see that over time illyrians pushed further and further south possibly because they liked the warmer weather and then the slavs came pushing thracians east and illyrians more south

torzio
09-11-20, 21:37
It could be that Urnfield became known as "illyrians" later on by the Greeks OR illyrians were in balkans before reported years but didn't have a big united tribe until later on as is the case with most cultures/tribes. Don't forget that there isn't much written history from illyrians themself so this name may have been given to them by the Greeks. All we know is that illyrians existed for a long time and they liked snakes/serpents
If you look at Greek history you can see that over time illyrians pushed further and further south possibly because they liked the warmer weather and then the slavs came pushing thracians east and illyrians more south


The illyrians where removed in bulk by the romans after the illyrian revolt ...it lasted 4 years

Native peoples of the two regions of Illyricum, Dalmatia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Dalmatia) and Pannonia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Pannonia), revolted against the Romans. The rebellion began among native peoples who had been recruited as auxiliary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxilia) troops for the Roman army (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_army). They were led by Bato the Daesitiate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bato_the_Daesitiate), a chieftain of the Daesitiatae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#Daesitiates) in the central part of present-day Bosnia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_(region)), and were later joined by the Breuci (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breuci), a tribe in Pannonia led by Bato the Breucian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bato_the_Breucian). Many other tribes in Illyria also joined the revolt.

these "illyrian" tribes fought the romans



Daesitiates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daesitiates)
Breuci (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breuci)
Andizetes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andizetes)
Pannonians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonians)
Liburnians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburnians)
Iapydes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapydes)


The dalmatians and pannonians made up over 75% of the illyrian forces

After the revolt , the bulk of these people and families where moved to other parts of the empire .............illyria remained barren to a degree until the slav migration in late 600AD ........but goths moved through there 100 plus years before, maybe some stayed

blevins13
10-11-20, 05:22
The illyrians where removed in bulk by the romans after the illyrian revolt ...it lasted 4 years

Native peoples of the two regions of Illyricum, Dalmatia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Dalmatia) and Pannonia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Pannonia), revolted against the Romans. The rebellion began among native peoples who had been recruited as auxiliary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxilia) troops for the Roman army (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_army). They were led by Bato the Daesitiate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bato_the_Daesitiate), a chieftain of the Daesitiatae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#Daesitiates) in the central part of present-day Bosnia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_(region)), and were later joined by the Breuci (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breuci), a tribe in Pannonia led by Bato the Breucian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bato_the_Breucian). Many other tribes in Illyria also joined the revolt.

these "illyrian" tribes fought the romans



Daesitiates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daesitiates)
Breuci (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breuci)
Andizetes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andizetes)
Pannonians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonians)
Liburnians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburnians)
Iapydes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapydes)


The dalmatians and pannonians made up over 75% of the illyrian forces

After the revolt , the bulk of these people and families where moved to other parts of the empire .............illyria remained barren to a degree until the slav migration in late 600AD ........but goths moved through there 100 plus years before, maybe some stayed

Illyria remained barren.....how you know that.
The opposite is true. Was full of life.


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torzio
10-11-20, 07:34
Illyria remained barren.....how you know that.
The opposite is true. Was full of life.


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from reading this


The Great Illyrian Revolt: Rome's Forgotten War in the Balkans, AD 6–9 Hardcover – April 5, 2019

by Jason R Abdale (https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&field-author=Jason+R+Abdale&text=Jason+R+Abdale&sort=relevancerank&search-alias=books) (Author)

TaktikatEMalet
10-11-20, 15:25
The illyrians where removed in bulk by the romans after the illyrian revolt ...it lasted 4 years
Native peoples of the two regions of Illyricum, Dalmatia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Dalmatia) and Pannonia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Pannonia), revolted against the Romans. The rebellion began among native peoples who had been recruited as auxiliary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxilia) troops for the Roman army (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_army). They were led by Bato the Daesitiate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bato_the_Daesitiate), a chieftain of the Daesitiatae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#Daesitiates) in the central part of present-day Bosnia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_(region)), and were later joined by the Breuci (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breuci), a tribe in Pannonia led by Bato the Breucian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bato_the_Breucian). Many other tribes in Illyria also joined the revolt.
these "illyrian" tribes fought the romans

Daesitiates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daesitiates)
Breuci (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breuci)
Andizetes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andizetes)
Pannonians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonians)
Liburnians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburnians)
Iapydes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapydes)

The dalmatians and pannonians made up over 75% of the illyrian forces
After the revolt , the bulk of these people and families where moved to other parts of the empire .............illyria remained barren to a degree until the slav migration in late 600AD ........but goths moved through there 100 plus years before, maybe some stayed

This could be true and a lot of these were taken by romans to join their army, could be why slavs were able to move in to that land quite easily

But my point was that illyrians had already moved further south and made regular contact with greeks as they have written, these southern illyrian tribes remained (ardiae, taulanti, labeates, dassareti etc) and accepted roman rule (after some conflict first) byzantine mentioned illyrians until 700AD, the others probably became scarce hid in mountains or were taken to rome

torzio
10-11-20, 17:51
This could be true and a lot of these were taken by romans to join their army, could be why slavs were able to move in to that land quite easily
But my point was that illyrians had already moved further south and made regular contact with greeks as they have written, these southern illyrian tribes remained (ardiae, taulanti, labeates, dassareti etc) and accepted roman rule (after some conflict first) byzantine mentioned illyrians until 700AD, the others probably became scarce hid in mountains or were taken to rome


IIRC, the illyrians first contact was not with greeks when they moved south , but against Philip of Macedon ( alexander the great father ) and the following many wars they had ........macedonians eventually made peace with them( illyrians) and then went on to conquer all the greeks

Taulanti are one of the 3 main dardanian tribes

The illyrians where not one group who spoke the same language or even had similar names ...............sent to me via a spanish DNA study 2015

The strongest barrier (a) indicates that the main differentiation in the distribution of Illyrian names occurs along the northwestern-southeastern direction, separating the areas of Noricum, Veneti, Histri and Liburni from all other groups. The second differentiation zone (b) encloses the area of Dardanians, while the third boundary (c) appears between Dalmatae, Pannonians and Autariates. The fourth barrier (d) encloses Liburni within the northwestern area.

Noricum = East Austria ( Vienna area )
Liburians = modern coastal croatia
Histri = Istria
Dalmatae = dalmatians
Autariates = from Montenegro lands

blevins13
10-11-20, 20:33
from reading this


The Great Illyrian Revolt: Rome's Forgotten War in the Balkans, AD 6–9 Hardcover – April 5, 2019

by Jason R Abdale (https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&field-author=Jason+R+Abdale&text=Jason+R+Abdale&sort=relevancerank&search-alias=books) (Author)

Many auxiliary Cohorts were raised by that province. Someone remained. If you se Croatia today you will find the same cities of that time. Barren la and is out of question.

Cohors I Delmatarum
Cohors I Delmatarum milliaria equitata
Cohors II Delmatarum
Cohors III Delmatarum equitata c.R. pf
Cohors IV Delmatarum
Cohors V Delmatarum
Cohors V Delmatarum c.R.
Cohors VI Delmatarum equitata
Cohors VII Delmatarum equitata
And later the Equites Dalmatae


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blevins13
10-11-20, 20:57
from reading this


The Great Illyrian Revolt: Rome's Forgotten War in the Balkans, AD 6–9 Hardcover – April 5, 2019

by Jason R Abdale (https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&field-author=Jason+R+Abdale&text=Jason+R+Abdale&sort=relevancerank&search-alias=books) (Author)

Can you provide the page, it does not say anything about barren land.


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Aspurg
24-11-20, 02:58
So there is E-Z38240 Posušje culture find and J-Z615 Mokrin find.

There are multiple cases of bowls with four handles occurring in Posušje culture sites. These are typical of Maros culture, and especially of Mokrin necropolis. According to archeologists (Govedarica) this represents Pannonian influence in the Early phase of Posušje culture. Considering the Mokrin find, this sample being more basal this could represent the arrival of J-Z597. Though TMRCA is little bit off, This couldn't have happened prior to 1900-2000 BC. And Mokrin separated from J-Z597 a bit before. Interestingly this is just after Ljubljana culture, often on the same site.. If taken this way then Ljubljana people would have to have been some basal R-U152 or the like.

So there are some direct archeological links between MBA Dalmatian Posušje culture and Mokrin. In this instance it has arrived from Mokrin direction. Few earlier Maros culture (not Mokrin, these are from an earlier study) finds don't look too different autosomally from Dalmatian finds.

Polska
28-11-20, 02:13
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/


Proto Illyrian/Dalmatian L283 Z38240 sample now on YFull YTree.