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Fustan
08-06-17, 14:24
This haplogroup is mostly found among Albanians, and seems to be most diverse there.
J2b2-L283 was also found in Bronze Age croatia (and it's funny Macaiamo doesn't mention Albanians on the J2b2 page on Eupedia, there seems to be a strong bias on his part for some strange reason).

Wondering if any non-albanians have this haplogroup and if so, where you're from.

Maciamo
08-06-17, 15:06
(and it's funny Macaiamo doesn't mention Albanians on the J2b2 page on Eupedia, there seems to be a strong bias on his part for some strange reason).


Or perhaps you can't read. This is what I wrote on the J2 page:

As a result, both the Illyrians and the Mycenaeans (and possibly the Albanians) would be descended from Middle to Late Bronze Age Steppe migrants to the Southeast Europe, in a migration that was particularly rich in J2b lineages from the Middle Volga region.

The Albanian (and Kosovar) population is one of the most homogeneous in Europe in term of shared recent ancestry according to Ralph & Coop 2013 (http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555). This means that the Albanians expanded from a very small population relatively recently, which explains why strong founder effects completely reshaped the Y-DNA frequencies. That is how E-V13 and J2b became to dominant among Albanians and Kosovars. That expansion probably took place during the Middle Ages, so based on the current data it is impossible to know whether E-V13 and J2b entered the Albanian gene pool during the Bronze Age, the Iron Age, the Classical Antiquity, or even the Middle Ages. Hence my reserve on the subject.

DuPidh
08-06-17, 15:56
I heard an Albanian Archaeologist saying that Mycenaean pottery constantly pops up in Albanian Sites. this shows that they traded with people who lived in Albania at that time

Fatherland
08-06-17, 16:54
This haplogroup is mostly found among Albanians, and seems to be most diverse there.
J2b2-L283 was also found in Bronze Age croatia (and it's funny Macaiamo doesn't mention Albanians on the J2b2 page on Eupedia, there seems to be a strong bias on his part for some strange reason).

Wondering if any non-albanians have this haplogroup and if so, where you're from.

I am proud to carry this haplotype aswell.

Fatherland
08-06-17, 17:05
Or perhaps you can't read. This is what I wrote on the J2 page:

As a result, both the Illyrians and the Mycenaeans (and possibly the Albanians) would be descended from Middle to Late Bronze Age Steppe migrants to the Southeast Europe, in a migration that was particularly rich in J2b lineages from the Middle Volga region.
It obviously implies that Albanians descend from the Ancient populations carrying these haplotypes no matter how "recently" they descend. R1b-L23, EV13 & J2b2 with a minority of I1 is the overwhelming majority of the Gheg Albanian haplotypes, especially the ones from the Northern Highlands.

Maciamo
08-06-17, 19:11
It obviously implies that Albanians descend from the Ancient populations carrying these haplotypes no matter how "recently" they descend. R1b-L23, EV13 & J2b2 with a minority of I1 is the overwhelming majority of the Gheg Albanian haplotypes, especially the ones from the Northern Highlands.

Obviously, but I can't say that J2b came straight from the Steppe to Albania in the Bronze Age. We just don't know. The J2b2 sample from Croatia at least is evidence of a recent migration from the Steppe.

Balkanite
08-06-17, 21:13
Obviously, but I can't say that J2b came straight from the Steppe to Albania in the Bronze Age. We just don't know. The J2b2 sample from Croatia at least is evidence of a recent migration from the Steppe.

It does not necessarily have to mean that. It could as well mean that there was a much earlier migration from the steppe. It could have been there since early Bronze age. Or even earlier for that matter.

Only thing we know for sure is that these J2b2-L283 men were on the Illyrian lands a couple of centuries before we hear of Illyrians for the first time.

And that when we suddenly stop hearing about the Illyrians, the Albanians pop up on the Illyrian lands (with the same haplogroup as the ancestors of Illyrians)

We do not know how and when it arrived there.

I know people use the 30% steppe ancestry to argue that he had recently arrived from the steppes. But some of his the steppe ancestry would almost certainly have come from his mother(who had steppe mtDNA). And that means that his father(also J2b2-L283) had even lower steppe ancestry than himself. Maybe only 15-25% steppe ancestry.
And this statement holds true, as long as you don't claim that his mother(steppe mtDNA) did not pass on any steppe genes to him?

I think this 30% steppe percentage is an indicator that his paternal line had been in the balkans at least for some generations, and maybe even a couple of hundreds/thousands of years. Or else where did he get all that farmer ancestry(from his steppe mother?), if his family hadn't been in the balkans for at least a couple of hundreds of years?

I am J2b2-L283 too, and i have 20% steppe ancestry. Does this now mean that i have just recently arrived from the steppe? :grin:

See the point? 30% steppe ancestry is not much. After 4000 years in the balkans i still have around the same steppe ancestry as the ancient skeletons father would have had. That means that in theory his paternal line could have been in the balkans for 4000 years before he was buried in that kurgan.

I am not saying that J2b2 have been in the balkans for 8000 years(because i don't believe that either), but i am just pointing out that i can be dangerous and an extreme waste of time to jump to conclusion so quickly, only based on one skeleton and 30% steppe ancestry. Waste of time i say, because you'll have to rewrite everything, every time a new paper comes out. These kinds of genetics are very young indeed, so it is easy to manipulate data now. But eventually everything will fall in its place, and then all these biased theories will be exposed and laughed at.
Therefore you should base you theories on what you really believe happened, not what you want to have happened, based on your own haplogroup.
Because being temporarily right, will never get you name in the history books for anything good. You will be remembered as that guy who singlehandedly tried to distort history, but was squashed like a fly, when the big Harvard and Cambridge guys came to the scene and saved the day.

You write entertaining texts and theories, but you have to be a little more objective. There are a lot of ignorants out there who read every word you write as it had descended from heaven in the form of pure truth. You should not misuse those ignorant peoples trust. Give them facts. And keep bias of off the picture. Who knows how many people think albanians aren't illyrians because of your sentence regarding Illyrians/albanians? Who knows how many people think R1a is some super-race or god-race which can enslave entire planets and rape aliens with their wagons, because of your bias.

In matters like these(where interests differ hugely), some sort of truth will eventually come out, because the research will be brought out at different locations(depending on which ancient DNA samples are being analyzed), and by different people. Maybe some Iberian and Italian will bend truth to fit own interests, while germans will do the same but in other interests. In the beginning, a lot of totally differing theories will arise, each with their own agenda. Then from these totally different theories, there will arise other theories, which take the best from each, and compile those points into other theories(which resembles the truth more and more). Eventually some kind of truth will arise from these theories.

Point is, the first theories in a subject are almost always remembered, and they are mostly ridiculed and seen as conservative and outdated(unlesss they are objective enough). Do you want researchers looking in some sort of electronic google archives, 50 years in the future, and say "This Maciamo guy, he really had some crazy theories. The bias and hidden agendas are pouring out like i have never seen anything pour before"
And yea you can probably just delete some articles now, and they will be forgotten forever. But if you ever publish anything serious, like an academic article, and you have as much bias as you have now, i can assure you, that people will laugh at you even long after your death.
Like those who said the earth was flat; that is how you'll be remembered if you ever take this kind of biased writing to the academic stage.

Kelmendasi
08-06-17, 21:15
Obviously, but I can't say that J2b came straight from the Steppe to Albania in the Bronze Age. We just don't know. The J2b2 sample from Croatia at least is evidence of a recent migration from the Steppe.
J2b2-L283 is obviously from the Illyrians or other paleo-Balkan groups, this is where it comes from in Albania/Kosova

Balkanite
08-06-17, 21:39
Obviously, but I can't say that J2b came straight from the Steppe to Albania in the Bronze Age. We just don't know. The J2b2 sample from Croatia at least is evidence of a recent migration from the Steppe.

It does not necessarily have to mean that. It could as well mean that there was a much earlier migration from the steppe. It could have been there since early Bronze age. Or even earlier for that matter.

Only thing we know for sure is that these J2b2-L283 men were on the Illyrian lands a couple of centuries before we hear of Illyrians for the first time.

And that when we suddenly stop hearing about the Illyrians, the Albanians pop up on the Illyrian lands (with the same haplogroup as the ancestors of Illyrians)

We do not know how and when it arrived there.

I know people use the 30% steppe ancestry to argue that he had recently arrived from the steppes. But some of his the steppe ancestry would almost certainly have come from his mother(who had steppe mtDNA). And that means that his father(also J2b2-L283) had even lower steppe ancestry than himself. Maybe only 15-25% steppe ancestry.
And this statement holds true, as long as you don't claim that his mother(steppe mtDNA) did not pass on any steppe genes to him?

I think this 30% steppe percentage is an indicator that his paternal line had been in the balkans at least for some generations, and maybe even a couple of hundreds/thousands of years. Or else where did he get all that farmer ancestry(from his steppe mother?), if his family hadn't been in the balkans for at least a couple of hundreds of years?

I am J2b2-L283 too, and i have 20% steppe ancestry. Does this now mean that i have just recently arrived from the steppe? :grin:

See the point? 30% steppe ancestry is not much. After 4000 years in the balkans i still have around the same steppe ancestry as the ancient skeletons father would have had. That means that in theory his paternal line could have been in the balkans for 4000 years before he was buried in that kurgan.

I am not saying that J2b2 have been in the balkans for 8000 years(because i don't believe that either), but i am just pointing out that i can be dangerous and an extreme waste of time to jump to conclusion so quickly, only based on one skeleton and 30% steppe ancestry. Waste of time i say, because you'll have to rewrite everything, every time a new paper comes out. These kinds of genetics are very young indeed, so it is easy to manipulate data now. But eventually everything will fall in its place, and then all these biased theories will be exposed and laughed at.
Therefore you should base you theories on what you really believe happened, not what you want to have happened, based on your own haplogroup.
Because being temporarily right, will never get you name in the history books for anything good. You will be remembered as that guy who singlehandedly tried to distort history, but was squashed like a fly, when the big Harvard and Cambridge guys came to the scene and saved the day.

You write entertaining texts and theories, but you have to be a little more objective. There are a lot of ignorants out there who read every word you write as it had descended from heaven in the form of pure truth. You should not misuse those ignorant peoples trust. Give them facts. And keep bias of off the picture. Who knows how many people think albanians aren't illyrians because of your sentence regarding Illyrians/albanians? Who knows how many people think R1a is some super-race or god-race which can enslave entire planets and rape aliens with their wagons, because of your bias.

In matters like these(where interests differ hugely), some sort of truth will eventually come out, because the research will be brought out at different locations(depending on which ancient DNA samples are being analyzed), and by different people. Maybe some Iberian and Italian will bend truth to fit own interests, while germans will do the same but in other interests. In the beginning, a lot of totally differing theories will arise, each with their own agenda. Then from these totally different theories, there will arise other theories, which take the best from each, and compile those points into other theories(which resembles the truth more and more). Eventually some kind of truth will arise from these theories.

Point is, the first theories in a subject are almost always remembered, and they are mostly ridiculed and seen as conservative and outdated(unlesss they are objective enough). Do you want researchers looking in some sort of electronic google archives, 50 years in the future, and say "This Maciamo guy, he really had some crazy theories. The bias and hidden agendas are pouring out like i have never seen anything pour before"
And yea you can probably just delete some articles now, and they will be forgotten forever. But if you ever publish anything serious, like an academic article, and you have as much bias as you have now, i can assure you, that people will laugh at you even long after your death.
Like those who said the earth was flat; that is how you'll be remembered if you ever take this kind of biased writing to the academic stage.

Fatherland
08-06-17, 21:56
Obviously, but I can't say that J2b came straight from the Steppe to Albania in the Bronze Age. We just don't know. The J2b2 sample from Croatia at least is evidence of a recent migration from the Steppe.
How can you be so sure that J2b2 was directly from the Steppe based on less than a third Steppe admix?
Yamnaya R1b-L23 spanned from the Steppe to South-Central Europe and it had steppe admix too, what makes J2b2 any different except being a more minor lineage?

Angela
08-06-17, 22:14
@Fatherland and Fustan,

Insults and ******** against other ethnic groups are not permitted here. I guess you didn't get the memo.

They weren't tolerated when they were directed against Albanians and they're not tolerated now when Albanians are making them against Greeks.

CHIARO????

This time it was just infractions. Keep it up and you're out of here.

The thread is an academic one, and once again it is becoming intolerable for serious posters to discuss the topic because you persist in dragging your anti-Greek war into everything.

There is a Balkanian disagreements thread. It was created for precisely this purpose. TAKE ANY SUCH DISCUSSIONS THERE. I will happily delete any further such comments here.

Oh, and even there, civility and no insults.

I'm sick and tired of this nonsense.

Fatherland
08-06-17, 22:16
@Fatherland and Fustan,

I am going to say this once and once only. Insults and ******** against other ethnic groups are not permitted here.

They weren't tolerated when they were directed against Albanians and they're not tolerated now when Albanians are making them against Greeks.

CHIARO????

This time it was just infractions. Keep it up and you're out of here.

The thread is an academic one and you are once again making it intolerable for serious posters to discuss the topic because you persist in dragging your anti-Greek war into everything.

There is a Balkanian disagreements thread. It was created for precisely this purpose. TAKE ANY SUCH DISCUSSIONS THERE. I will happily delete any further such comments here.

Oh, and even there, civility and no insults.

I'm sick and tired of this nonsense.

There is no insults in this thread, but I agree I went abit hard in the other one.

I now am wise to follow your advice.

Fustan
08-06-17, 22:20
@Fatherland and Fustan,

Insults and ******** against other ethnic groups are not permitted here. I guess you didn't get the memo.

They weren't tolerated when they were directed against Albanians and they're not tolerated now when Albanians are making them against Greeks.

CHIARO????

This time it was just infractions. Keep it up and you're out of here.

The thread is an academic one, and once again it is becoming intolerable for serious posters to discuss the topic because you persist in dragging your anti-Greek war into everything.

There is a Balkanian disagreements thread. It was created for precisely this purpose. TAKE ANY SUCH DISCUSSIONS THERE. I will happily delete any further such comments here.

Oh, and even there, civility and no insults.

I'm sick and tired of this nonsense.

Understood. I shall adhere to your request.

Maciamo
09-06-17, 08:48
Balkanite, your post was moderated by the forum. I have just approved it.


It does not necessarily have to mean that. It could as well mean that there was a much earlier migration from the steppe. It could have been there since early Bronze age. Or even earlier for that matter.

Only thing we know for sure is that these J2b2-L283 men were on the Illyrian lands a couple of centuries before we hear of Illyrians for the first time.

And that when we suddenly stop hearing about the Illyrians, the Albanians pop up on the Illyrian lands (with the same haplogroup as the ancestors of Illyrians)

We do not know how and when it arrived there.

I know people use the 30% steppe ancestry to argue that he had recently arrived from the steppes. But some of his the steppe ancestry would almost certainly have come from his mother(who had steppe mtDNA). And that means that his father(also J2b2-L283) had even lower steppe ancestry than himself. Maybe only 15-25% steppe ancestry.
And this statement holds true, as long as you don't claim that his mother(steppe mtDNA) did not pass on any steppe genes to him?

I think this 30% steppe percentage is an indicator that his paternal line had been in the balkans at least for some generations, and maybe even a couple of hundreds/thousands of years. Or else where did he get all that farmer ancestry(from his steppe mother?), if his family hadn't been in the balkans for at least a couple of hundreds of years?

I am J2b2-L283 too, and i have 20% steppe ancestry. Does this now mean that i have just recently arrived from the steppe? :grin:

See the point? 30% steppe ancestry is not much. After 4000 years in the balkans i still have around the same steppe ancestry as the ancient skeletons father would have had. That means that in theory his paternal line could have been in the balkans for 4000 years before he was buried in that kurgan.

I understand what you mean. But there was no steppe ancestry in individuals from the Late Chalcolithic cultures around Croatia like Baden ou Vučedol. And J2b2 was also never found anywhere in Neolithic or Chalcolithic Europe. Additionally we have enough data from the age and geographic dispersal of J2b2 to think it did come with the IE migrations. I have been saying it for years. This new sample just confirmed a long held hypothesis.

As for the 30% steppe, who is to say that is wasn't similar in both parents? It was 1700 BCE. EEF admixture was already present in the Steppe by then. It doesn't have to be local nor very recent.

Another possibility is that Steppe people mixed with a Chalcolithic European population between the Steppe and Croatia (e.g. Romania, Hungary). Given enough generations the Steppe and EEF admixtures would have been relatively evenly spread out in most individuals, whatever their Y-DNA or mtDNA haplogroup. This is exactly what we see with Early Bronze Age Britons and Irish. Autosomally they were hybrid Steppe-Central European Chalcolithic, almost indistinguishable from Unetice genomes. Yet, some had Steppe mtDNA, while other had Mesolithic or Neolithic European mtDNA, just like modern Britons and Irish. And the most interesting is that the British and especially Irish gene pool hasn't changed much in over 4000 years since these Proto-Celtic R1b-L21 tribes arrived from Central Europe. The main difference is the Germanic DNA, especially in eastern Britain.

In other words, it seems that the Proto-IE didn't always mix with locals, or at least not as systematically. There were a few events of major blending. With R1b-L51 it happened some time between 3500 and 2500 BCE between the Steppe and Germany. It could have happened in just a few centuries, or progressively. We don't know yet. But after 2500 BCE, when R1b pushed west to France and the British Isles, they mostly replaced the local populations. Similarly, R1a-Z93 tribes blended extensively with locals in southern Central Asia (around the BMAC), then invaded South Asia, but established the caste system that prevented them from blending with local populations (most of the times) to this day. Tow similar scenarios both east and west. A first period of slow advance with heavy intermingling followed by a fast conquest with little intermingling. In the Dinaric Alps, I would bet that the Illyrian conquest from 1600 BCE was the second, quick conquest phase, and that the long blending had already happened (in Hungary, Romania or even in the Steppe) before. This is why we see a J2b2 individual who is as EEF admixed as the Unetice and EBA Britons/Irish. It's to be expected since that was in 1700 BCE, 500 years after R1b reached Britain and 100 years after the start of the Indo-Aryan migrations.





I am not saying that J2b2 have been in the balkans for 8000 years(because i don't believe that either), but i am just pointing out that i can be dangerous and an extreme waste of time to jump to conclusion so quickly, only based on one skeleton and 30% steppe ancestry. Waste of time i say, because you'll have to rewrite everything, every time a new paper comes out. These kinds of genetics are very young indeed, so it is easy to manipulate data now. But eventually everything will fall in its place, and then all these biased theories will be exposed and laughed at.
Therefore you should base you theories on what you really believe happened, not what you want to have happened, based on your own haplogroup.
Because being temporarily right, will never get you name in the history books for anything good. You will be remembered as that guy who singlehandedly tried to distort history, but was squashed like a fly, when the big Harvard and Cambridge guys came to the scene and saved the day.

You write entertaining texts and theories, but you have to be a little more objective. There are a lot of ignorants out there who read every word you write as it had descended from heaven in the form of pure truth. You should not misuse those ignorant peoples trust. Give them facts. And keep bias of off the picture. Who knows how many people think albanians aren't illyrians because of your sentence regarding Illyrians/albanians? Who knows how many people think R1a is some super-race or god-race which can enslave entire planets and rape aliens with their wagons, because of your bias.

In matters like these(where interests differ hugely), some sort of truth will eventually come out, because the research will be brought out at different locations(depending on which ancient DNA samples are being analyzed), and by different people. Maybe some Iberian and Italian will bend truth to fit own interests, while germans will do the same but in other interests. In the beginning, a lot of totally differing theories will arise, each with their own agenda. Then from these totally different theories, there will arise other theories, which take the best from each, and compile those points into other theories(which resembles the truth more and more). Eventually some kind of truth will arise from these theories.

Point is, the first theories in a subject are almost always remembered, and they are mostly ridiculed and seen as conservative and outdated(unlesss they are objective enough). Do you want researchers looking in some sort of electronic google archives, 50 years in the future, and say "This Maciamo guy, he really had some crazy theories. The bias and hidden agendas are pouring out like i have never seen anything pour before"
And yea you can probably just delete some articles now, and they will be forgotten forever. But if you ever publish anything serious, like an academic article, and you have as much bias as you have now, i can assure you, that people will laugh at you even long after your death.
Like those who said the earth was flat; that is how you'll be remembered if you ever take this kind of biased writing to the academic stage.

It's interesting to see how you think. I am sorry to inform you that I have no agenda. I never quite understand what people mean by "agenda". It's something I hear a lot from people from the Balkans. Just so you know, I do not favour any haplogroup. Just read what I posted over the years. The Proto-Indo-Europeans were a mix of many haplogroups like G2a-L13, I2a2a-L701, J2a-Z435, J2b2-L283, R1a-M417, R1b-L23, and maybe even others, dependending on whether you consider only Yamna and Maykop, or also later BA cultures like Corded Ware, Unetice, Andronovo, etc.

Out of curiosity, what agenda do you think I hold and why (how would it benefit me)?

LABERIA
09-06-17, 13:47
Or perhaps you can't read. This is what I wrote on the J2 page:

As a result, both the Illyrians and the Mycenaeans (and possibly the Albanians) would be descended from Middle to Late Bronze Age Steppe migrants to the Southeast Europe, in a migration that was particularly rich in J2b lineages from the Middle Volga region.

The Albanian (and Kosovar) population is one of the most homogeneous in Europe in term of shared recent ancestry according to Ralph & Coop 2013 (http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555). This means that the Albanians expanded from a very small population relatively recently, which explains why strong founder effects completely reshaped the Y-DNA frequencies. That is how E-V13 and J2b became to dominant among Albanians and Kosovars. That expansion probably took place during the Middle Ages, so based on the current data it is impossible to know whether E-V13 and J2b entered the Albanian gene pool during the Bronze Age, the Iron Age, the Classical Antiquity, or even the Middle Ages. Hence my reserve on the subject.

It's interesting to note how has changed your opinion in this years:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26169-Berbers-and-Albanians-E-haplogroup-and-linguistic-similarity?p=363334&viewfull=1#post363334
From my experience, when i have reserve on a subject, i prefer to stay aside.

Maciamo
09-06-17, 14:36
It's interesting to note how has changed your opinion in this years:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26169-Berbers-and-Albanians-E-haplogroup-and-linguistic-similarity?p=363334&viewfull=1#post363334
From my experience, when i have reserve on a subject, i prefer to stay aside.

I didn't change my opinion about this. I still think that Albanian language is a hybrid of IE and non-IE from Neolithic farmers. I have mentioned before that elements of Afroasiatic languages are also present in Celtic languages. In all regions where heavy intermingling between IE and non-IE populations occurred, some linguistic merger also took place. That's what we could call creolisation process. One of the most heavily hybridised IE language family in Europe (besides Albanian) is the Germanic family. I have always supported the Germanic substrate hypothesis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_substrate_hypothesis). I even wrote a page with examples of non-IE Germanic words (http://www.eupedia.com/linguistics/non-indo-european_germanic_words.shtml). In fact it is very hard to understand why people would suddenly stop using perfectly good words and trade them for other completely different ones if it weren't for the blending of two linguistic distinct populations. I believe that population mergers have been the driving force in the evolution of languages and the differentiation of various branches within a single language family.

LABERIA
09-06-17, 15:10
I didn't change my opinion about this. I still think that Albanian language is a hybrid of IE and non-IE from Neolithic farmers. I have mentioned before that elements of Afroasiatic languages are also present in Celtic languages. In all regions where heavy intermingling between IE and non-IE populations occurred, some linguistic merger also took place. That's what we could call creolisation process. One of the most heavily hybridised IE language family in Europe (besides Albanian) is the Germanic family. I have always supported the Germanic substrate hypothesis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_substrate_hypothesis). I even wrote a page with examples of non-IE Germanic words (http://www.eupedia.com/linguistics/non-indo-european_germanic_words.shtml). In fact it is very hard to understand why people would suddenly stop using perfectly good words and trade them for other completely different ones if it weren't for the blending of two linguistic distinct populations. I believe that population mergers have been the driving force in the evolution of languages and the differentiation of various branches within a single language family.
The theory of the migration of IE people and their intermingling with the local populations is the most accredited theory, nothing new here. But this happened before the middle ages.
Will be very interesting if you elaborate this your theory of this afroasiatic elements in Albanian language, this Egyptian and Berber influences.

Balkanite
09-06-17, 15:15
Balkanite, your post was moderated by the forum. I have just approved it.



I understand what you mean. But there was no steppe ancestry in individuals from the Late Chalcolithic cultures around Croatia like Baden ou Vučedol. And J2b2 was also never found anywhere in Neolithic or Chalcolithic Europe. Additionally we have enough data from the age and geographic dispersal of J2b2 to think it did come with the IE migrations. I have been saying it for years. This new sample just confirmed a long held hypothesis.

As for the 30% steppe, who is to say that is wasn't similar in both parents? It was 1700 BCE. EEF admixture was already present in the Steppe by then. It doesn't have to be local nor very recent.

Another possibility is that Steppe people mixed with a Chalcolithic European population between the Steppe and Croatia (e.g. Romania, Hungary). Given enough generations the Steppe and EEF admixtures would have been relatively evenly spread out in most individuals, whatever their Y-DNA or mtDNA haplogroup. This is exactly what we see with Early Bronze Age Britons and Irish. Autosomally they were hybrid Steppe-Central European Chalcolithic, almost indistinguishable from Unetice genomes. Yet, some had Steppe mtDNA, while other had Mesolithic or Neolithic European mtDNA, just like modern Britons and Irish. And the most interesting is that the British and especially Irish gene pool hasn't changed much in over 4000 years since these Proto-Celtic R1b-L21 tribes arrived from Central Europe. The main difference is the Germanic DNA, especially in eastern Britain.

In other words, it seems that the Proto-IE didn't always mix with locals, or at least not as systematically. There were a few events of major blending. With R1b-L51 it happened some time between 3500 and 2500 BCE between the Steppe and Germany. It could have happened in just a few centuries, or progressively. We don't know yet. But after 2500 BCE, when R1b pushed west to France and the British Isles, they mostly replaced the local populations. Similarly, R1a-Z93 tribes blended extensively with locals in southern Central Asia (around the BMAC), then invaded South Asia, but established the caste system that prevented them from blending with local populations (most of the times) to this day. Tow similar scenarios both east and west. A first period of slow advance with heavy intermingling followed by a fast conquest with little intermingling. In the Dinaric Alps, I would bet that the Illyrian conquest from 1600 BCE was the second, quick conquest phase, and that the long blending had already happened (in Hungary, Romania or even in the Steppe) before. This is why we see a J2b2 individual who is as EEF admixed as the Unetice and EBA Britons/Irish. It's to be expected since that was in 1700 BCE, 500 years after R1b reached Britain and 100 years after the start of the Indo-Aryan migrations.




It's interesting to see how you think. I am sorry to inform you that I have no agenda. I never quite understand what people mean by "agenda". It's something I hear a lot from people from the Balkans. Just so you know, I do not favour any haplogroup. Just read what I posted over the years. The Proto-Indo-Europeans were a mix of many haplogroups like G2a-L13, I2a2a-L701, J2a-Z435, J2b2-L283, R1a-M417, R1b-L23, and maybe even others, dependending on whether you consider only Yamna and Maykop, or also later BA cultures like Corded Ware, Unetice, Andronovo, etc.

Out of curiosity, what agenda do you think I hold and why (how would it benefit me)?

I just went to the genetics section here on Eupedia(where i haven't been for a while), and i noticed that you actually have edited a lot of stuff. It looks much better now.
You should not think as my posts as pointless critisism. The only reason that i waste my time writing these things, is because i really want dissemination of these matters(genetics). And honestly, eupedia is one of the only(the only one i know) sites which actually break down these things in a language that commoners(non-genetisists like myself) can understand.
But then it frustrates me how even the most legit site won't take consideration of us Albanians.
An example:

"As a result, both the Illyrians and the Mycenaeans (and possibly the Albanians) would be descended from Middle to Late Bronze Age Steppe migrants to the Southeast Europe, in a migration that was particularly rich in J2b lineages from the Middle Volga region. That would explain why it has been so hard to identify R1a or R1b lineages that could be of Illyrian or Mycenaean origin"
- Why write "possibly the albanians"? If you really believe that the modern balkanic J2b2 people(including albanians) originated from those north-balkan indo-european, why not reformulate it like this:

"As a result, both the Illyrians and the Myceneans would be descended from Middle to Late Bronze Age Steppe migrants to the Southeast Europe, in a migration that was particularly rich in J2b lineages from the Middle Volga region. This is also relfected in the fact that modern Albanians (who are the only linguistic candidates for being the descendants of the Illyrians), have such high percentage of J2b2-L283 and R1b-Z2103 , while it has been so hard to identify any R1a lineages in their gene pool that could be of Illyrian or Mycenaean origin."

The difference between the two ways of writing is that in the first one, you give the anti-albanian powers the benefit of the doubt: That the Albanians only "maybe" came to the Balkans at this time. And that it may still be possible for us to be some newcomers in the Ottoman empire or something. That is what an anti-albanian person will see when he reads the first one.
The second version(which i edited) puts the Albanians in the Balkans for at least since the middle/late bronze age.

Now if we forget genetics for a moment.
Linguisticly we would expect the illyrians to be some kind of balkanic indo-europeans branch, with a lot of roman influence, right?
Geographically we would expect them to be located in the western balkans, right?

Now the albanians:
Linguistically we are some sort of balkanic indo-european branch, with a lot of roman influence, right?
Geographically we are located at the western balkans, right?

So Albanians must be of pre-slav balkan origin, maybe illyrian, maybe something related to illyrian.
But however we bend the facts, can we agree that both geography, linguistics and genetics point in the direction that there is a MUCH greater chance that Albanians are descendants of some kind of Illyrian-like culture, than being descendant of some later middle age turkic/anatolian expansion?
I think that you will agree with me on the last sentence.
And that is where the problem arises; why would you write the text in a manner like that, which actually gives the benefit of the doubt for those people who claim Albanians came with the turks. When you actually believe that we came in the Bronze age?

That is what i see as an agenda. The fact that you believe something, but you put it in a way which can be HUGELY misread and misunderstood, and eventually imply the opposite of what you believe.

I don't know if this i just some attempt not be caught in the Albanian-serb crossfire, and be as abstract as possible. But we cannot keep altering history to satisfy the 6th century newcomers.

I know sometimes it seems like we albanians are fanatics in these matters, but if you know how politics work in the Balkans, you'll understand. Altered history can be used to start wars and genocides in the Balkans. How do you think all the wars break out? Because both sides think that they were there first, and both sides see the other side as invading inferiors.

I and think it is wrong that we Albanians have to keep seeing our european brothers neglect us, and keep giving our enemies the benefit of the doubt. Everyone knows albanians were there before the slavs, but still everyone keeps silent.

History is not just history in the balkans. History is what politician controlled media tell the people when they want them to kill their neighbours.

And i know it can seem a lot to write all these things because you worte "possibly the albanians". But that word means everything. Because as long as the serbs and greeks think that we are invading turks, we will never feel safe in our own territory. And as long as historians don't support us, our neighbours will keep seeing us as invaders and inferiors.

Pax Augusta
09-06-17, 16:09
I heard an Albanian Archaeologist saying that Mycenaean pottery constantly pops up in Albanian Sites. this shows that they traded with people who lived in Albania at that time

For sure. Mycenaean pottery pops up anywhere in southern Europe, also in Italy, France, Spain.

Maciamo
09-06-17, 17:52
I just went to the genetics section here on Eupedia(where i haven't been for a while), and i noticed that you actually have edited a lot of stuff. It looks much better now.
You should not think as my posts as pointless critisism. The only reason that i waste my time writing these things, is because i really want dissemination of these matters(genetics). And honestly, eupedia is one of the only(the only one i know) sites which actually break down these things in a language that commoners(non-genetisists like myself) can understand.
But then it frustrates me how even the most legit site won't take consideration of us Albanians.
An example:

"As a result, both the Illyrians and the Mycenaeans (and possibly the Albanians) would be descended from Middle to Late Bronze Age Steppe migrants to the Southeast Europe, in a migration that was particularly rich in J2b lineages from the Middle Volga region. That would explain why it has been so hard to identify R1a or R1b lineages that could be of Illyrian or Mycenaean origin"
- Why write "possibly the albanians"? If you really believe that the modern balkanic J2b2 people(including albanians) originated from those north-balkan indo-european, why not reformulate it like this:

"As a result, both the Illyrians and the Myceneans would be descended from Middle to Late Bronze Age Steppe migrants to the Southeast Europe, in a migration that was particularly rich in J2b lineages from the Middle Volga region. This is also relfected in the fact that modern Albanians (who are the only linguistic candidates for being the descendants of the Illyrians), have such high percentage of J2b2-L283 and R1b-Z2103 , while it has been so hard to identify any R1a lineages in their gene pool that could be of Illyrian or Mycenaean origin."

The difference between the two ways of writing is that in the first one, you give the anti-albanian powers the benefit of the doubt: That the Albanians only "maybe" came to the Balkans at this time. And that it may still be possible for us to be some newcomers in the Ottoman empire or something. That is what an anti-albanian person will see when he reads the first one.
The second version(which i edited) puts the Albanians in the Balkans for at least since the middle/late bronze age.

I agree with your edit. Please understand that I usually write from work when I have some time to spare, and I often have to hurry to write replies on the forum. I cannot always word things in the best possible way.



Now if we forget genetics for a moment.
Linguisticly we would expect the illyrians to be some kind of balkanic indo-europeans branch, with a lot of roman influence, right?
Geographically we would expect them to be located in the western balkans, right?

Now the albanians:
Linguistically we are some sort of balkanic indo-european branch, with a lot of roman influence, right?
Geographically we are located at the western balkans, right?

So Albanians must be of pre-slav balkan origin, maybe illyrian, maybe something related to illyrian.
But however we bend the facts, can we agree that both geography, linguistics and genetics point in the direction that there is a MUCH greater chance that Albanians are descendants of some kind of Illyrian-like culture, than being descendant of some later middle age turkic/anatolian expansion?
I think that you will agree with me on the last sentence.

Of course I agree with all this. I don't know why you mention the possibility that Albanians descend from a medieval Ottoman expansion. That never crossed my mind once. Albanians have hardly any Turkic/Mongoloid admixture, and their main Y-DNA lineages (E-V13, J2b2) are rare in most of Turkey. Likewise typical Turkish lineages (G2a-M406, R1a-Z93, Q1a, N1c, E-M84, J1, many subclades of J2a1) are virtually absent from Albania.




And that is where the problem arises; why would you write the text in a manner like that, which actually gives the benefit of the doubt for those people who claim Albanians came with the turks. When you actually believe that we came in the Bronze age?

That is what i see as an agenda. The fact that you believe something, but you put it in a way which can be HUGELY misread and misunderstood, and eventually imply the opposite of what you believe.

It's hard to consider a point a view that never crossed your mind because there is no data to support it. So I didn't think it was necessary to disprove that the Albanians aren't Turks. It's just so obvious.





I don't know if this i just some attempt not be caught in the Albanian-serb crossfire, and be as abstract as possible. But we cannot keep altering history to satisfy the 6th century newcomers.

I know sometimes it seems like we albanians are fanatics in these matters, but if you know how politics work in the Balkans, you'll understand. Altered history can be used to start wars and genocides in the Balkans. How do you think all the wars break out? Because both sides think that they were there first, and both sides see the other side as invading inferiors.

I and think it is wrong that we Albanians have to keep seeing our european brothers neglect us, and keep giving our enemies the benefit of the doubt. Everyone knows albanians were there before the slavs, but still everyone keeps silent.

History is not just history in the balkans. History is what politician controlled media tell the people when they want them to kill their neighbours.

And i know it can seem a lot to write all these things because you worte "possibly the albanians". But that word means everything. Because as long as the serbs and greeks think that we are invading turks, we will never feel safe in our own territory. And as long as historians don't support us, our neighbours will keep seeing us as invaders and inferiors.


I admit that I don't really understand why there is so much disagreement and conflicts between Balkanic countries. Genetics show that, autosomally at least, you are all pretty close to one another. The division is more cultural and linguistic. Of course Macedonians and Serbs have more Slavic DNA, but it's still a minority of their genome compared to the local Balkanic admxiture. Just look at the Greeks. You don't see North Greeks arguing or fighting with Cretans/Aegeans or vice versa because the former have Slavic and Germanic DNA that the latter lack. Same in France. An ethnically German Alsatians can live perfectly well in peace with a ethnically Basque Gascon, an ethnically Welsh Breton or an ethnically Ligurian Niçois. Why can't you do the same in the Balkans?

Balkanite
09-06-17, 19:10
I agree with your edit. Please understand that I usually write from work when I have some time to spare, and I often have to hurry to write replies on the forum. I cannot always word things in the best possible way.



Of course I agree with all this. I don't know why you mention the possibility that Albanians descend from a medieval Ottoman expansion. That never crossed my mind once. Albanians have hardly any Turkic/Mongoloid admixture, and their main Y-DNA lineages (E-V13, J2b1, J2b2) are rare in most of Turkey. Likewise typical Turkish lineages (G2a-M406, R1a-Z93, Q1a, N1c, E-M84, J1, many subclades of J2a1) are virtually absent from Albania.




It's hard to consider a point a view that never crossed your mind because there is no data to support it. So I didn't think it was necessary to disprove that the Albanians aren't Turks. It's just so obvious.





I admit that I don't really understand why there is so much disagreement and conflicts between Balkanic countries. Genetics show that, autosomally at least, you are all pretty close to one another. The division is more cultural and linguistic. Of course Macedonians and Serbs have more Slavic DNA, but it's still a minority of their genome compared to the local Balkanic admxiture. Just look at the Greeks. You don't see North Greeks arguing or fighting with Cretans/Aegeans or vice versa because the former have Slavic and Germanic DNA that the latter lack. Same in France. An ethnically German Alsatians can live perfectly well in peace with a ethnically Basque Gascon, an ethnically Welsh Breton or an ethnically Ligurian Niçois. Why can't you do the same in the Balkans?

Yes i know it is absurd to bring up theories of Ottoman origin for the Albanians. But in the common impression among non-albanian balkanites(those who doesn't know about genetics of course), is that Albanians are land-grabbing intruders who have nothing to do with Illyrians. And the sad part is that some of those propaganda spreaders actually use genetics superficially to support their theories.

They were even close to convincing me at one point. It was maybe 2-3 years ago, before the I2-Din clade was very known of.
I saw people everywhere posting maps of Y-DNA I2 distribution, and i even saw Albanians claiming that the Illyrians were I2(because of modern distribution), and because of that, they all believed that bosniaks and croats actually were the real Illyrians(slavizised), while E-v13 and J2b2 Albanians came from Turkey and from Egypt in modern times. Because at that time we didn't know that I2-Din had actually spread pretty recently from a common forefather 1500-2000 years ago.

And yea i agree with you in that is is not optimal that people in the balkans fight each other all the time and on every occasion.
If it was up to me we should just hold some kind of grand poll, where every village from Pelepponese to Istria to the carpathians would vote on which of the neighboring countries they want to belong to. But that is highly unrealistic in todays politics.
I also believe that the reason that the greeks don't fight each other, is that they have built a strong national identity during the last 200 years. I am a classical archeologist myself, so i practically read about greeks and romans several hours a day. And i have seen how much positive literature have been written by Germans, Englishmen, Italians, French etc. about the greek culture. And trust me, so much positive literature and glorification of one people is enough to make it so honorable to belong to that ethnicity/culture, that is is hard to convince a member of that culture to become something else. Slavs and albanians do not have that kind of strong national identity approved by all the great powers, so our leaders know that we are prone to assimilation. So that is what they do, our political leaders, they set us up against each other so they can grab land from neighboring countries, and eventually pour more money and resources into their own aristocratic class. And in the end neither the albanians nor the serbians have a say in what will happen, Russia and America fund and control these things. So what we see in the balkans is basically the "front" between russia and america(like ukrainealso is). But of course they won't use their own soldiers. And that is natural of course, the front go to be somewhere. But sometimes i just feel like the Albanians are not supported enough.
There is a great example which happened around 1650 or something. Where Venetians and Spaniards(and all other westerners of course) wanted to push the ottomans out of the balkans. But they lacked information regarding how many armies and how large a fleet the ottomans had around the balkans, and where they had them. An albanian, Antonio Bruni(or Bruti) had scouted all of the Ottoman territories in modern Albania, and he had actually figured out precisely how many ships, men, guns and ammunition would be needed to push them out. And he also had gathered large numbers of Albanians who were ready to fight off the Ottomans. But In the end, after several months of waiting for an answer, his request was denied by the other westerners. That resulted in several defeats, and expansion of the ottoman empire into Europe, and that the ottomans would stay in europe for another 300 years. That is a classic example how we albanians are always kept on front line, but never supported enough from behind.
Basically the same situation today, except that the wars are brought out on paper more than on the battlefield. The whole western world knows how albanians used to occupy the whole of western balkans, and that we still have huge numbers of albanians in the neighboring countries, but nobody does anything to stop the eastern advance towards the adriatic.

Apsurdistan
09-06-17, 20:59
@Maciamo
Because we are empire killers and when there's no empire to kill we kill each other. This why the EU will never accept the core of the Balkans into the union. Shortly after accepting Croatia it has already started falling apart with the Brexit. Now that may sound ridiculous but just throwing it out there as a potential warning :rolleyes2:

Fatherland
09-06-17, 21:02
Of course I agree with all this. I don't know why you mention the possibility that Albanians descend from a medieval Ottoman expansion. That never crossed my mind once. Albanians have hardly any Turkic/Mongoloid admixture, and their main Y-DNA lineages (E-V13, J2b1, J2b2) are rare in most of Turkey. Likewise typical Turkish lineages (G2a-M406, R1a-Z93, Q1a, N1c, E-M84, J1, many subclades of J2a1) are virtually absent from Albania.

Good post.

Btw, I assume you meant R1b-L23, as J2b1 is virtually non-existant in Albanians, particularly Ghegs. So far I have observed EV13, J2b2 & R1b-L23 to be the three main lineages among Ghegs. The more you move into northern tribal Gheg territory, the less I2a1b-Din and R1a you will find. Tosks have additional I2a1b and R1a which makes them partly more similar to Vlachs(Aromanians) paternally, except that Vlachs are higher in J2b2 just like Ghegs.

When comparing these groups aDNA in let's say Eurogenes V2K15 let alone any other Gedmatch calculator, Ghegs are always noticeably more Northwestern shifted compared to Tosks who shift Southeast(again similar to Aromanians of Albania by aDNA). Tosks unsurprisingly have a higher/equal Baltic admixture combined with their more southern/eastern components while Ghegs score more North Atlantic and other North-Western components.
Ghegs seem to score slightly less West Asian compared to Tosks aswell in general though some exceptions do exist, of course.

Keep in mind an area in Montenegro called: Old Montenegro has reduced I2a1b-"Din" while the "native" Balkan(particularily EV13, then R1b-L23 & J2b2) components are elevated.

LABERIA
09-06-17, 21:17
@Maciamo
Because we are empire killers and when there's no empire to kill we kill each other. This why the EU will never accept the core of the Balkans into the union. Shortly after accepting Croatia it has already started falling apart with the Brexit. Now that may sound ridiculous but just throwing it out there as a potential warning :rolleyes2:

There is nothing to do with Empire killers. It's because this was the decision of the guy in the signature of Maciamo and many people like him. They decided the borders in the regions, but not only here, in all the world. What answer can i give to the generalizing question of Maciamo:
Why can't you do the same in the Balkans?
Maciamo, do you know that my country borders with Albanian territories inhabited since antiquity from Albanians? Who decided this? The Great Powers. Why? Because was in their interest. And they continue to do this.
And we read here in this forum, "scientific" discussions about the Berber origin of the Albanians. And when you quote an important scholar like Fallmerayer, immediately arrive the "Easter eggs", or when you quote the father of history, Herodotus, there is a glitch in the forum. Andiamo bene.

Kelmendasi
09-06-17, 21:19
Good post.

Btw, J2b1 is virtually non-existant in Albanians, particularly Ghegs. So far I have observed EV13, J2b2 & R1b-L23 to be the three main lineages among Ghegs. The more you move into northern tribal Gheg territory, the less I2a1b-Din and R1a you will find. Tosks have additional I2a1b and R1a which makes them partly more similar to Vlachs(Aromanians) paternally, except that Vlachs are higher in J2b2 just like Ghegs.

When comparing these groups aDNA in let's say Eurogenes V2K15 let alone any other Gedmatch calculator, Ghegs are always noticeably more Northwestern shifted compared to Tosks who shift Southeast(again similar to Aromanians of Albania by aDNA). Tosks unsurprisingly have a higher/equal Baltic admixture combined with their more southern/eastern components while Ghegs score more North Atlantic and other North-Western components.
Ghegs seem to score slightly less West Asian compared to Tosks aswell in general though some exceptions do exist, of course.
I think he meant R1b lol

Kelmendasi
09-06-17, 21:22
I think he meant R1b not J2b1

Fatherland
09-06-17, 21:23
I think he meant R1b not J2b1
Yeah I think so too.

Angela
09-06-17, 22:55
I am going to give everyone until 6PM Eastern Standard Time (U.S.) to delete and if they choose, copy/paste all the off-topic posts somewhere else. Then I will remove them all.

Bergin
10-06-17, 00:09
deleted....

Bergin
10-06-17, 00:19
thanks for all the info over the last year.

Apsurdistan
10-06-17, 01:48
The Albanians are the most fascinating posters in this forum, bar none.

Bergin
10-06-17, 02:00
The Albanians are the most fascinating posters in this forum, bar none.

familiar with sheakspire? much ado about nothing ...

Apsurdistan
10-06-17, 02:30
Sometimes I don't know what you're talking about I guess I don't have the quantum mind like you, but fascinating nonetheless.

Bergin
10-06-17, 02:43
Sometimes I don't know what you're talking about I guess I don't have the quantum mind like you, but fascinating nonetheless.

What I mean is that we are discussing samples taken by others in other countries. We are talking a lot but none is digging to find 'precious' bones home. And imagine to dna test them ....
So, we make a lot of noise, but that is it.

If it was not for some italians and croatians that went to test, Ev13 and J2b2 could have waited another century for albanias to discover them... it is so frustrating.

Apsurdistan
10-06-17, 03:29
Now we've gone off the topic of the off topic from the original topic.

You're making Angelas brain sweat. Here comes the "hammer"

Balkanite
10-06-17, 16:49
I dont understand how these posts are off topic? We are discussing if a lot of slavs are slavisized albanians?
Whether or not that is true has a huge impact on how we should interpret all that J2b2-L283 among non-albanian balkanites.
And how we interpret that has a huge impact on the arguments one can use to support the claim that J2b2-L283 is indeed Illyrian.
So as far as i see, nothing off topic here.

Angela
10-06-17, 18:21
Oh yeah? Posts about Venetian Albania are on topic are they? Your logic is faulty.

@Absurdistan,

LeBrok uses the hammer. I use Athena's spear. :)

I really appreciate people with a sense of humor. You're starting to grow on me, if you understand that idiom. :) Just don't use your humor to ***** other ethnicites.

Balkanite
10-06-17, 18:29
Great. Where is the reich video you talked about then?

LABERIA
10-06-17, 19:57
Oh yeah? Posts about Venetian Albania are on topic are they? Your logic is faulty.

@Absurdistan,

LeBrok uses the hammer. I use Athena's spear. :)

I really appreciate people with a sense of humor. You're starting to grow on me, if you understand that idiom. :) Just don't use your humor to ***** other ethnicites.

You have to delete also this post, because here started the discussion about Albania Veneta:


16th and 17th century venetian archives stated this about montenegro ( you do know montenegro is a venetian word ) , coastal montenegro which venice ruled was ethnic dalmatians, who once spoke dalmatian, inner montenegro was controlled by 2 different ethnic family, the croatians and serbians, they had the titles of Hum and Zeta..........no mention of Bosnians, albanians or turks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language

Fatherland
10-06-17, 20:01
You have to delete also this post, because here started the discussion about Albania Veneta:
Yeah. The guy came out of nowhere with offtopic discussions when it's about haplogroups.

If people are so good at dishing it out from nowhere, they better be able to take the response too.

Angela
10-06-17, 20:32
How old are some of you?

"Mommy, mommy, he started it first!" That was the point at which I usually threatened to cancel the trip and bring everybody home.

Grow up, and stop causing all this chaos or you're going to be out of here.

Balkanite
10-06-17, 21:00
Wow Angela, are they causing chaos by pointing out that someone went off topic? :D
LABERIA was just poiting out for you where the first off-topic post was located on the thread.
Isn't that just helping, Angela?
I smell some emotions interfering with someones logical sense :D

LABERIA
10-06-17, 21:05
How old are some of you?

"Mommy, mommy, he started it first!" That was the point at which I usually threatened to cancel the trip and bring everybody home.

Grow up, and stop causing all this chaos or you're going to be out of here.

The question is not how old we are or if it's time for us to grow up. The problem is that you have to understand that you are a moderator in an respected international forum and you can't go around deleting posts without reasons. Can you tell me please, what was wrong in my posts against the rules of this forum?

Balkanite
10-06-17, 21:10
It is because she/he is editing threads so they will fit her/his beliefs better.
That is why she only deleted your posts, but not the serbian guys post. She/he though no one would notice.
When you pointed it out, she/he had to make an excuse for not deleting it, and that excuse was the we have to grow up :D

Balkanite
10-06-17, 21:11
Actually thought this forum would be more serious...

Angela
10-06-17, 22:02
The question is not how old we are or if it's time for us to grow up. The problem is that you have to understand that you are a moderator in an respected international forum and you can't go around deleting posts without reasons. Can you tell me please, what was wrong in my posts against the rules of this forum?

You are supposed to keep on topic. I gather you never read the forum rules? That's always a mistake.

The topic is whether a certain ydna lineage is proto-Illyrian, not petty disputes about the extent of Venetian areas thousands of years later.

If you can't understand that you have a problem with your reasoning ability and sense of chronology

Keep it up and you'll get another richly deserved infraction.

You and some of the other Albanian members, and now some returning Serbian members make a zoo out of innumerable academic threads, and it's going to stop.

Angela
10-06-17, 22:07
Wow Angela, are they causing chaos by pointing out that someone went off topic? :D
LABERIA was just poiting out for you where the first off-topic post was located on the thread.
Isn't that just helping, Angela?
I smell some emotions interfering with someones logical sense :D

The a-scientific ******** engaged in by him and certain other posters is what makes certain threads virtually unreadable for any serious poster.

He pointed out Sile's post because he's annoyed he had more posts deleted than Sile, and Sile's was the first.

Like I said, childish and pathetic.

LABERIA
10-06-17, 22:40
The a-scientific ******** engaged in by him and certain other posters is what makes certain threads virtually unreadable for any serious poster.

He pointed out Sile's post because he's annoyed he had more posts deleted than Sile, and Sile's was the first.

Like I said, childish and pathetic.

Excuse me, what do you consider academic discussion, being forced to read your husband's opinion ?

Now, when Greeks tell me upon hearing my last name, as they always do, "Una faccia, una razza", I can say, yes, indeed, and the genetics proves it. :)

My husband was always very interested in the commonalities between the Greeks and the southern Italians as some of his family were speaking Griko into the 19th century, and his paternal grandfather was born within sight of Greek ruins. He also was a Classics minor at university, Latin and Greek studies. So, very interested indeed.

To be completely honest, though, I also like being right. :)

And from the other side you continue to delete my posts full with references from many scholars starting from the Herodotus, the father of history and continue with other important scholars from antiquity until in our days?

Apsurdistan
11-06-17, 17:27
Oh yeah? Posts about Venetian Albania are on topic are they? Your logic is faulty.

@Absurdistan,

LeBrok uses the hammer. I use Athena's spear. :)

I really appreciate people with a sense of humor. You're starting to grow on me, if you understand that idiom. :) Just don't use your humor to ***** other ethnicites.

And you contribute much to this forum and it's nice to have a lady in here. You're kind of a freak that you're obsessed with this stuff but in a good healthy sense :)

We Yugoslavians (I know it's not a country anymore but it gets really annoying labeling 5 or 6 nationalities every time) have a stereotype that Bosnians are funny and Montenegrians are lazy. And I guess I fit both of those.
Can I share a Montenegrian joke? Trust me it's not offense it's in good spirit and you can all have a good laugh and proceed with the topic. Or you can even delete it it's fine.

Milan.M
11-06-17, 17:51
Well Apsurdistan you're true Bosnian like most i know,I think the same way of Bosnians not in stereo typical way, they're funny and other things that i remember they like to sing and are good singers don't know about you thought lol.
However Bosnians are some of my favorite people in ex-Yugoslavia.

Fatherland
13-06-17, 15:45
Thread needs serious cleaning for all of page 2.

Fatherland
18-06-17, 01:01
Illyrians:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/156374751579734016/323965112153276417/1749036.png


I2a-Slav was somewhere in Ukraine-Belarus area.

Daggo
16-10-17, 02:49
100% North-western European here, but my haplogroup is J2b2

LeBrok
16-10-17, 06:53
100% North-western European here, but my haplogroup is J2b2So what? People move around you know.

Daggo
16-10-17, 09:09
So what? People move around you know.

OP wanted to know if any non-Albanians/Balkanites were J2b2...so I included my ancestry, which is basically all from the North Sea coast. It's my understanding that J2b2 is pretty rare outside S-E Europe.

Dema
21-10-17, 16:50
OP wanted to know if any non-Albanians/Balkanites were J2b2...so I included my ancestry, which is basically all from the North Sea coast. It's my understanding that J2b2 is pretty rare outside S-E Europe.Best regards, there is J2b2 reported in plenty of places outside Balkan. Also J2b2 is wide spread and Albanians fall under J2-L283 line.Since you stated your ancestry is from North Sea they could easily be also somewhere under L283.What is your terminal snp and where have you tested? With at least 37 STRs markers tested you can know how far you are from Albanians and who might be your closest relatives thru direct paternal line. This is map of J2b, J2b1 and J2b2 combined so it kinda gives you Idea, where most numerous i believe should be j2b2 EDIT: i cant post links but go under J2 in Eupedia and look for last map (Distribution of haplogroup J2b (M102) in Europe, the Middle East & North Africa).

Dianatomia
21-10-17, 16:51
Hi everyone, I have been reading the posts staring the first thread and I noticed that a possible connection was postulated between Albanians and Myceaneans through J2b2. Given that recently we have evidence that Myceneans were quite similar to Minoans and we only found Myceneans carrying haplogroup J2a. Does someone think that J2b2 may have entered Greece through a later invasion like the Dorians? In that case Dorians would have been more Balkanic than the Myceneans.

Also, I am rather puzzled because of the fact that Gheghs pretty much lack haplogroup J2b1. Since the latter haplogroup seems to be quite old, I wonder how Ghegh Albanians don't have it. I would definitely expect Illyrians to carry this haplogroup as well.

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b1.png

Dema
21-10-17, 16:52
BTW interesting thread, i agree that Albanians should be more associated to this group on Eupedia because its obviously dominates at them with percentages.

Dema
21-10-17, 17:12
nvm,,, text edit out

Sile
21-10-17, 19:15
Hi everyone, I have been reading the posts staring the first thread and I noticed that a possible connection was postulated between Albanians and Myceaneans through J2b2. Given that recently we have evidence that Myceneans were quite similar to Minoans and we only found Myceneans carrying haplogroup J2a. Does someone think that J2b2 may have entered Greece through a later invasion like the Dorians? In that case Dorians would have been more Balkanic than the Myceneans.
Also, I am rather puzzled because of the fact that Gheghs pretty much lack haplogroup J2b1. Since the latter haplogroup seems to be quite old, I wonder how Ghegh Albanians don't have it. I would definitely expect Illyrians to carry this haplogroup as well.
https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b1.png
Recently while studying Strabo and other Roman historians ..........I begin to see that the only people the Dorians and myceneans can be associated with are the Thracians, I suspect these 2 along with Dacians and getae are sub branches of thracian.
.
Strabo states the illyrians are from the eastern alps circa 1300BC and following that, the hungarian scholar in his book Noricum further states that the Dalmatians migrated to the coast of the Adriatic sea around 500-600BC from modern austria/slovenia.
.
On your map the serbian area has always been associated with 2 thracian tribes from history, the Triballi and the Moesians.
.
I am currently stuidying the 2 Dardanian ( kosovo ) tribes, one being the Galabrii which , so far, I found moved to northern Albania are where renamed Taulantii.
.
The ancient greek Historian Herodotus has always stated that the Thracians are the biggest population in the world after the Indians

Sticazzi
21-10-17, 19:32
Sile:When's your book coming out? Galabri became Taulanti? Please provide a source. Galabri could have become Calabri and Apuli in Dacia became Apuli in South Italy could make sense, but the Taulanti theory is new to me. The Triballi were also considered as Illyrian from the mythological genealogy, where Triballus was the son of Illyrus if I'm not mistaken. These are all useless speculation, but since the topic focuses on it we can opt for a dual proto-thracian and proto-illyrian origin.

Sile
21-10-17, 20:30
Sile:When's your book coming out? Galabri became Taulanti? Please provide a source. Galabri could have become Calabri and Apuli in Dacia became Apuli in South Italy could make sense, but the Taulanti theory is new to me. The Triballi were also considered as Illyrian from the mythological genealogy, where Triballus was the son of Illyrus if I'm not mistaken. These are all useless speculation, but since the topic focuses on it we can opt for a dual proto-thracian and proto-illyrian origin.
I never seen the triballi as associated with illyrian .........I see
Triballi, a Thracian people whose earliest known home was the “Triballian plain” (probably the Plain of Kosovo), near the junction of the Angrus and Brongus rivers (the western and southern Morava) in the north-central Balkans. Sometime after 424 bc they were overcome by the Autariatae from the north. Later The Triballi fought off the Macedonians of Phillip II from the south
Galabrii as noted by historian William Forester.......the name galabrii is unknown , but should be changed to taulantii as Galabrus was the king of the Taulantii in northern Albania

Trojet
21-10-17, 20:36
Hi everyone, I have been reading the posts staring the first thread and I noticed that a possible connection was postulated between Albanians and Myceaneans through J2b2. Given that recently we have evidence that Myceneans were quite similar to Minoans and we only found Myceneans carrying haplogroup J2a. Does someone think that J2b2 may have entered Greece through a later invasion like the Dorians? In that case Dorians would have been more Balkanic than the Myceneans.
Also, I am rather puzzled because of the fact that Gheghs pretty much lack haplogroup J2b1. Since the latter haplogroup seems to be quite old, I wonder how Ghegh Albanians don't have it. I would definitely expect Illyrians to carry this haplogroup as well.
https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b1.png

You may read my analysis of Greek J2b2-L283 here (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26644-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin/page12?p=513874&viewfull=1#post513874) and here (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26644-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin/page13?p=514099&viewfull=1#post514099), which was written before we had the Mycenaean ancient DNA. My analysis pointing that current Greek J2b2-L283 subclades are unlikely to be present among Mycenaeans, and are as a result of later migrations from further North (Dorians, Illyrians Thracians, and later Vlachs and Albanians), stands.

Regarding J2b1-M205, as Dema pointed out, in the mainland Balkans (outside of the the Mediterranean), all of it seems to fall under J2b1-M205>PH4306>Y22066 and has a TMRCA of only ca. 900-1500 years, which suggests it was likely not present there before the common era, hence the reason why (Gheg) Albanians are almost completely lacking it. Unfortunately, many people don't understand haplogroup J2b quite well, so they assume they are part of the same migration. True, J2b1-M205 has a TMRCA of ca. 6000 years, but in ancient DNA is consistently being found in the Levant area. It's distribution is actually quite reminiscent of some branches of haplogroup J2a.
So far the only J2b that has "deep roots" (high TMRCA) in Europe, and found in ancient DNA from the Bronze Age or before (in Croatia) is J2b2-L283, which as we know reaches maximum frequency among (Gheg) Albanians, while being quite low everywhere else, albeit with some representation among Vlachs and Greeks.

Yetos
21-10-17, 20:39
I never seen the triballi as associated with illyrian .........I see
Triballi, a Thracian people whose earliest known home was the “Triballian plain” (probably the Plain of Kosovo), near the junction of the Angrus and Brongus rivers (the western and southern Morava) in the north-central Balkans. Sometime after 424 bc they were overcome by the Autariatae from the north. Later The Triballi fought off the Macedonians of Phillip II from the south
Galabrii as noted by historian William Forester.......the name galabrii is unknown , but should be changed to taulantii as Galabrus was the king of the Taulantii in northern Albania


Sile is not Calambri but Gambrili, I know you know it,

calambri fits with Poltobri mesebri etc

Yetos
21-10-17, 20:44
You may read my analysis of Greek J2b2-L283 here (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26644-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin/page12?p=513874&viewfull=1#post513874) and here (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26644-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin/page13?p=514099&viewfull=1#post514099), which was written before we had the Mycenaean ancient DNA. My analysis pointing that J2b2-L283 is unlikely to be present among Mycenaeans, and is as a result of later migrations from further North (Dorians, Illyrians, and later Vlachs and Albanians), seems to stand.

Regarding J2b1-M205, as Dema pointed out, in the mainland Balkans (outside of the the Mediterranean), all of it seems to fall under J2b1-M205>PH4306>Y22066 and has a TMRCA of only ca. 900-1200 years, which suggests it was likely not present there before the common era, hence the reason why (Gheg) Albanians are almost completely lacking it. Unfortunately, many people don't understand haplogroup J2b quite well, so they assume they are part of the same migration. True, J2b1-M205 has a TMRCA of ca. 6000 years, but in ancient DNA is consistently being found in the Levant area. So far the only J2b that has "deep roots" (high TMRCA) in Europe, and found in ancient DNA from the Bronze Age (Croatia) is J2b2-L283.

I hope, by that, you do not mean that drop from the sky

Sile
21-10-17, 20:57
Sile is not Calambri but Gambrili, I know you know it,
calambri fits with Poltobri mesebri etc
I do not know what you mean
.
strabo says .........."To the Dardaniatae belong also the Galabrii, among whom is an ancient city, and the Thunatae"
these are the 2 tribes
...
I now believe that there was only 2 main ethnic people of the balkans in ancient times of the later bronze-age and early iron-age ..........they are Greeks and Thracians

Garrick
21-10-17, 22:18
Recently while studying Strabo and other Roman historians ..........I begin to see that the only people the Dorians and myceneans can be associated with are the Thracians, I suspect these 2 along with Dacians and getae are sub branches of thracian.
.
Strabo states the illyrians are from the eastern alps circa 1300BC and following that, the hungarian scholar in his book Noricum further states that the Dalmatians migrated to the coast of the Adriatic sea around 500-600BC from modern austria/slovenia.
.


J2b2 was presented in Thracians what today's researchers in recent scientific paper called Albanian-Bulgarian cluster because same subclades in Bulgaria and Albania.

But what is interesting it seems after arrived warriors from Plateu of Phyrgia (via Bosphorus) in Pannonia 2000 BC after mix with locals we can speak about Proto-Illyrians and known direction toward Austria and after that other western and southwesten directions there were directions toward East too (before mix with locals or after it is impossible to determine in this moment).

This means Dacians, especially Free Dacians, Carpi and maybe Costoboces had haplogroup J2b2. We cannot be sure without samples from Carpi (and Costoboces) epochs in their historical homelands because Carpi (and Costoboces) almost extinct in their homeland (historical regions Moldova, Bucovina, Maramures and surrounding, Carpathian). But everywhere where Carpi moved (South and Western Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, etc.) we can find J2b2. In recent study in one small province in Hungary in furthermost North-Western (Carpathian area) found one J2b2 who belongs Bulgarian-Albanian cluster.

Bergin
21-10-17, 22:37
Garrick - there is a J2b in dalmatia from 1700 bc. That is the only data point we have from ancient times. Every theory has to pass through that point. Dalmatia is not Thracian territory.
Ancient thracian dna has been found, and J2b was not among them.

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Trojet
21-10-17, 23:08
J2b2 was presented in Thracians what today's researchers in recent scientific paper called Albanian-Bulgarian cluster because same subclades in Bulgaria and Albania.
But what is interesting it seems after arrived warriors from Plateu of Phyrgia (via Bosphorus) in Pannonia 2000 BC after mix with locals we can speak about Proto-Illyrians and known direction toward Austria and after that other western and southwesten directions there were directions toward East too (before mix with locals or after it is impossible to determine in this moment).
This means Dacians, especially Free Dacians, Carpi and maybe Costoboces had haplogroup J2b2. We cannot be sure without samples from Carpi (and Costoboces) epochs in their historical homelands because Carpi (and Costoboces) extinct in their homeland (present day Moldova province in Romania and surrounding). But everywhere where Carpi moved (South and Western Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, etc.) we can find J2b2. In recent study in one small province in Hungary found one J2b2 who belongs Bulgarian-Albanian cluster.

Why are you wasting our time with nonsense like this. J2b2-L283 has not been found in an ancient DNA context in Thrace territory to date. So this is a disinformation. Instead, it has been found in Bronze Age Dalmatia (Illyrian territory).

You claim all/same "subclades" found in Albania are also found in Bulgaria, which is not true. Then you claim there is this hypothetical "Albanian-Bulgarian" J2b2 cluster. I know there is no such cluster either, so another disinformation.

What you don't realize or mention is that one Albanian J2b2 cluster is showing a TMRCA of 2400 ybp between two Albanian BigY's (Illyrian times) and no Bulgarian is in it:
http://img.pixady.com/2017/07/490619_illyrianalbanian.jpg
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y20899/

So multiple lies in one post by Garrick the Serb, or should I call it disinformation...

Leka
21-10-17, 23:12
Garrick - there is a J2b in dalmatia from 1700 bc. That is the only data point we have from ancient times. Every theory has to pass through that point. Dalmatia is not Thracian territory.
Ancient thracian dna has been found, and J2b was not among them.

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J2b2 sample from Veliki Vanik, Dalmatia was Bulgarian, Dacian (free Dacian?). No Illyrian, Illyrian Bosphorus, Anatolia. Albanian from Bulgaria 2000BC, now scientist from Serbia confirmed.

Sile
21-10-17, 23:30
Why are you wasting our time with nonsense like this. J2b2-L283 has not been found in an ancient DNA context in Thrace territory to date. So this is a lie from you. Instead it has been found in Bronze Age Dalmatia (Illyrian territory).
You claim that that all "subclades" found in Albania are also found in Bulgaria, which is not true. Then you claim there is this hypothetical "Albanian-Bulgarian" J2b2 cluster. And I know there is no such cluster either, so another lie.
What you don't realize or mention is that one Albanian J2b2 cluster is showing a TMRCA of 2400 ybp between two Albanian BigY's (Illyrian times) and no Bulgarian is in it:
http://img.pixady.com/2017/07/490619_illyrianalbanian.jpg
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y20899/
So multiple lies in one post by Garrick the Serb!!!
current recent findings state that the dalmatians arrived on the adriatic coast between 500-600BC
https://s20.postimg.org/c7898rvr1/illy_delma.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
and that they lived originally further north
the only population which could have been on that adriatic coast prior to 500-600BC was the thracians ............the Dorians where long gone

....
BTW.....your dates should read 450BC and the other 800AD

Bergin
21-10-17, 23:30
J2b2 sample from Veliki Vanik, Dalmatia was Bulgarian, Dacian (free Dacian?). No Illyrian, Illyrian Bosphorus, Anatolia. Albanian from Bulgaria 2000BC, now scientist from Serbia confirmed.
I am not sure if you did quote tge wrong post or just misunderstood me?

I am saying that the only ancient J2b we have is located in dalmatia at 1700bc. That place coincides with illyrian lands (not thracian). The timing (1700bc) is slightly before illyrian period. Therefore, Maciamo correctly writes that this sample is a clear indication that J2b might be related to proto-illyrian.
Two points are important: an indication is not definitive proof - few more samples are required to proof it beyond any doubt. The other point regards the possibility of a comun proto father for both illyrians and thracians (linguistics has indications of some connections). So if some ancient J2b are also found in the future in thracian territory than we will have proof of the illyrian-thracian connection - clearly this is just one possibility for now, and not supported by ancient dna.

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Sile
21-10-17, 23:35
J2b2 was presented in Thracians what today's researchers in recent scientific paper called Albanian-Bulgarian cluster because same subclades in Bulgaria and Albania.

But what is interesting it seems after arrived warriors from Plateu of Phyrgia (via Bosphorus) in Pannonia 2000 BC after mix with locals we can speak about Proto-Illyrians and known direction toward Austria and after that other western and southwesten directions there were directions toward East too (before mix with locals or after it is impossible to determine in this moment).

This means Dacians, especially Free Dacians, Carpi and maybe Costoboces had haplogroup J2b2. We cannot be sure without samples from Carpi (and Costoboces) epochs in their historical homelands because Carpi (and Costoboces) almost extinct in their homeland (historical regions Moldova, Bucovina, Maramures and surrounding, Carpathian). But everywhere where Carpi moved (South and Western Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, etc.) we can find J2b2. In recent study in one small province in Hungary in furthermost North-Western (Carpathian area) found one J2b2 who belongs Bulgarian-Albanian cluster.

The thracians are far too numerous in the balkans .............I would like to find out if the Dorians where a sub-branch of the Thracians. it would then mean that ancient greek and ancient thracian linguistically can be aligned and as we know now illyrian and greek is not aligned.

Illyrian is most likely a sub- east celtic dialect similar to pannonia

Trojet
21-10-17, 23:38
I am not sure if you did quote tge wrong post or just misunderstood me?
I am saying that the only ancient J2b we have is located in dalmatia at 1700bc. That place coincides with illyrian lands (not thracian). The timing (1700bc) is slightly before illyrian period. Therefore, Maciamo correctly writes that this sample is a clear indication that J2b might be related to proto-illyrian.
Two points are important: an indication is not definitive proof - few more samples are required to proof it beyond any doubt. The other point regards the possibility of a comun proto father for both illyrians and thracians (linguistics has indications of some connections). So if some ancient J2b are also found in the future in thracian territory than we will have proof of the illyrian-thracian connection - clearly this is just one possibility for now, and not supported by ancient dna.
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He is being sarcastic.

I think it would be better if you add L283 to J2b ;)
It's like saying E1b, but not specifying which branch we mean when we talk about E1b-V13.

Otherwise, what you said makes sense. I think it's quite possible J2b2-L283 will be found in Thracian remains as well, given its high TMRCA in the Balkans which dates well into the Bronze Age. Currently however, we have no evidence of that.

Garrick
21-10-17, 23:40
Garrick - there is a J2b in dalmatia from 1700 bc. That is the only data point we have from ancient times. Every theory has to pass through that point. Dalmatia is not Thracian territory.
Ancient thracian dna has been found, and J2b was not among them.

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Yes samples from relevant epoches and historical areas are proof,but unfortunately for now we have very small number of Thracian samples, and for Free Dacian there no samples.

But we know that in Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary in today's population there are J2b2 carriers, for example in descendants of Bassarab, first rulers of independent Wallachia (Romanian area) found 16 J2b2 carriers (in Internet is information that 7 J2b2 samples belong to one of the Albanian J2b2, can anyone confirm this).

In recent scientific paper scientists named J2b2 Albanian-Bulgarian cluster, and found one person in furthermost North-Western in Hungary (Carpathian area) who belongs to this cluster (maybe this person can be descendant of Free Dacians because they lived there).

Garrick
21-10-17, 23:58
Why are you wasting our time with nonsense like this. J2b2-L283 has not been found in an ancient DNA context in Thrace territory to date. So this is a disinformation. Instead, it has been found in Bronze Age Dalmatia (Illyrian territory).

You claim all/same "subclades" found in Albania are also found in Bulgaria, which is not true. Then you claim there is this hypothetical "Albanian-Bulgarian" J2b2 cluster. I know there is no such cluster either, so another disinformation.

What you don't realize or mention is that one Albanian J2b2 cluster is showing a TMRCA of 2400 ybp between two Albanian BigY's (Illyrian times) and no Bulgarian is in it:
http://img.pixady.com/2017/07/490619_illyrianalbanian.jpg
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y20899/

So multiple lies in one post by Garrick the Serb, or should I call it disinformation...

No, I didn't say that J2b2 found in Thracian land in samples in relevant epoches and historical territory, I don't know how you understood this wrong.

What I said that in today's population who live in former Thracian land (in Bulgaria, Romania etc) found J2b2, I think it is clear.

And what you didn't understand in recent scientific paper from 2017 scientists created term "Albanian-Bulgarian cluster" for J2b2, I gave this fact from their scientific paper, do you read scientific papers.

Trojet
22-10-17, 00:07
And what you didn't understand in recent scientific paper from 2017 scientists created term "Albanian-Bulgarian cluster" for J2b2, I gave this fact from their scientific paper, do you read scientific papers.

Again, you don't even mention or link which "scientific paper" this alleged "Albanian-Bulgarian" J2b2 cluster was identified in. I'm sure I would've heard of it, if there was such "scientific paper".

Perhaps this is something you read from "the scientists" at the Serbian forum, Poreklo. Or perhaps you're just making it up...

Leka
22-10-17, 00:18
Yes samples from relevant epoches and historical areas are proof,but unfortunately for now we have very small number of Thracian samples, and for Free Dacian there no samples.

But we know that in Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary in today's population there are J2b2 carriers, for example in descendants of Bassarab, first rulers of independent Wallachia (Romanian area) found 16 J2b2 carriers (in Internet is information that 7 J2b2 samples belong to one of the Albanian J2b2, can anyone confirm this).

In recent scientific paper scientists named J2b2 Albanian-Bulgarian cluster, and found one person in furthermost North-Western in Hungary (Carpathian area) who belongs to this cluster (maybe this person can be descendant of Free Dacians because they lived there).
Yes yes yes, relevant epoches historical areas Bastarnea CTS10228 Germanic-Celtic = Serbian - Illyrian, big number. No, J2b2 in furthemost North-Western Hungary (Carpathian area) is enslaved Dacian, confirmed scientific papers. Free Dacians no sample yet.

Bergin
22-10-17, 00:27
Yes samples from relevant epoches and historical areas are proof,but unfortunately for now we have very small number of Thracian samples, and for Free Dacian there no samples.

But we know that in Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary in today's population there are J2b2 carriers, for example in descendants of Bassarab, first rulers of independent Wallachia (Romanian area) found 16 J2b2 carriers (in Internet is information that 7 J2b2 samples belong to one of the Albanian J2b2, can anyone confirm this).

In recent scientific paper scientists named J2b2 Albanian-Bulgarian cluster, and found one person in furthermost North-Western in Hungary (Carpathian area) who belongs to this cluster (maybe this person can be descendant of Free Dacians because they lived there).

Garrick, nothing is 100% sure with the actual data. It is very rare chance that the J2b2-L287 of croatia was only proto-Tharcian with no connection with proto-Illyrian. Still is not an impossibility.

I think I remember seeing on the kings bloodlines post (this forum) some J2b2 in the romanian families (and also Ev13). I dont know if they are albanian (I cannot confirm). Honestly, people moved lot after the roman empire felt and mixed with each other (even before). Balkan today is relatively homogeneous. Autosomally, albanians are closer to tuscan than to bulgarian - even though the difference is relatively small. Quite curious about the percentage of J2b2-L287 in tuscan.

I did not see the paper you are talking about, can you send me a link?

Garrick
22-10-17, 00:34
Again, you don't specify which "scientific paper" this alleged "Albanian-Bulgarian" J2b2 cluster was identified in. I'm sure I would've heard of it, if such were the case.

Or perhaps this is something you read from "the scientists" at the Serbian forum, Poreklo...

What do you speak about?

I don't use Serbian sources, how many times I have to say this (except if some scientific research is done in Serbia what is very rarely), I have nothing with site Poreklo, nothing, I know nobody from this site, even very rarely read and explained once why.

It seems you read much more Poreklo than I, do you know Serbian.
...

By the way, scientists are Hungarian, what is logic because research and samples are from area in Hungaria:

Pamjav, H.

Fothi A.

Feher T.

Fothi E.

Do you want their references? They are scientists, PhD, experts, and know matter much better than we, hobbyists.

They found one carrier in their study for whom they say to belong Albanian-Bulgarian cluster.

Paper is from 2017, it is very interesting.

But you gave me idea that put this paper as new thread.

Bergin
22-10-17, 01:06
current recent findings state that the dalmatians arrived on the adriatic coast between 500-600BC
https://s20.postimg.org/c7898rvr1/illy_delma.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
and that they lived originally further north
the only population which could have been on that adriatic coast prior to 500-600BC was the thracians ............the Dorians where long gone

....
BTW.....your dates should read 450BC and the other 800AD

Sounds more like an hypothesis. There are 1000 theories about Illyrians ... now 1001. Furthermore, it is not yet even presented as a conjecture that can be tested right or wrong by future findings. As they state in the document: one may suppose, one may ask!

Clearly, this is just my opinion and you have all the rights to believe in it. (but honestly, do you see inland people moving to the sea-side and use zero of their previous skills?)

Zanatis
22-10-17, 01:46
Why is history always discussed and why does it matter?

blevins13
22-10-17, 01:48
The thracians are far too numerous in the balkans .............I would like to find out if the Dorians where a sub-branch of the Thracians. it would then mean that ancient greek and ancient thracian linguistically can be aligned and as we know now illyrian and greek is not aligned.

Illyrian is most likely a sub- east celtic dialect similar to pannonia

Keep wishing.....


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Leka
22-10-17, 05:10
Paper (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00438-017-1319-z) he is referring to.

Sile
22-10-17, 05:16
Sounds more like an hypothesis. There are 1000 theories about Illyrians ... now 1001. Furthermore, it is not yet even presented as a conjecture that can be tested right or wrong by future findings. As they state in the document: one may suppose, one may ask!
Clearly, this is just my opinion and you have all the rights to believe in it. (but honestly, do you see inland people moving to the sea-side and use zero of their previous skills?)
That is a nice answer from someone who will believe what they want to believe if it fits their agenda..........sounds like nearly everyone on this forum

Strabo the roman historians did say many times the illyrians mixed with celts in the alps ...............and clearly we have an agenda when many people deny that the illyrians where in the alps

Jovialis
22-10-17, 07:59
"Agenda, agenda, agenda"

Did you just learn this word, and now are using it as often as you can?

halfalp
22-10-17, 09:06
The possibility of J2b to be an anatolian link, of some bronze age migrants into balkans, is very interesting and tempting. But linked that eventual migration with spread of indo-european languages, is not. Armenians and Mycaenians are not the archetype of the indo-european people like Celts or Iranians were. Greek, Latin, Germanic, are very offshore groups, little elits who becomed a cultural majority in there time. I think people want really put a lot of emphasis on every hypothesis who can counter the Steppe Hypothesis. J2b is definitely an haplogroup who has to be studied from the begining of his recent expansion somewhere in western asia + iran.

Garrick
22-10-17, 11:09
I did not see the paper you are talking about, can you send me a link?

A study of the Bodrogköz population in north‑eastern Hungary
by Y chromosomal haplotypes and haplogroups

Paper is from this year created by Hungarian scientists, unfortunately someone who tries to access cannot, only abstract and supplement materials are avaliable.

Authors found one J2b carrier belongs Albanian-Bulgarian cluster, quote:

"TMRCA estimates (30 years/generation):
Albanian–Bulgarian cluster: 1781 ± 381 YBP."

What is interesting plus authors identified one E-V13 carrier as Albanian admixture.

Bergin
22-10-17, 13:00
That is a nice answer from someone who will believe what they want to believe if it fits their agenda..........sounds like nearly everyone on this forum

Strabo the roman historians did say many times the illyrians mixed with celts in the alps ...............and clearly we have an agenda when many people deny that the illyrians where in the alps
This is what I believe:

If someones words from the chronicles of the time makes a link between illyrians and the alps, then there is a good reason to look for proof in this direction.

Similarly, if Strabos say A then go and proof it with pottery or other archaeological means. Do claim it after you found proof.
If by chance you do find some proof of the opposite, let us say an illyrian settlement from the BA, then you have to face options: - accept that empirical facts rule over words, or follow the scriptures.


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Garrick
22-10-17, 14:51
Mountain who is author of seminal volumes "The Celtic Encyclopedia" studied all Celts plus all people related with Celts.

Mountain found that Illyrians were mining salt at Gmunden, in Austria.

It means according Mountain Illyrians were in present day Austria.

https://www.weather-forecast.com/locationmaps/Gmunden.12.gif

Trojet
22-10-17, 15:00
A study of the Bodrogköz population in north‑eastern Hungary
by Y chromosomal haplotypes and haplogroups
Paper is from this year created by Hungarian scientists, unfortunately someone who tries to access cannot, only abstract and supplement materials are avaliable.
Authors found one J2b carrier belongs Albanian-Bulgarian cluster, quote:
"TMRCA estimates (30 years/generation):
Albanian–Bulgarian cluster: 1781 ± 381 YBP."
What is interesting plus authors identified one E-V13 carrier as Albanian admixture.

I have known about this this paper (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00438-017-1319-z) as soon as it came out, and I have even analyzed the STR haplotypes, which are low resolution 23 Y-STRs and 30 Y-SNPs. Out of a total 148 haplotypes, there is only 4 J2b-M12, and no mention whatsoever of comparison with Albanians or Bulgarians by the authors.

You should be banned for deliberately posting disinformation on a regular basis.

Garrick
22-10-17, 15:23
I have known about this this paper (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00438-017-1319-z) as soon as it came out, and I have even analyzed the STR haplotypes.

No mention whatsoever by the authors of what you claim.

You should be banned for deliberately posting disinformation on a regular basis.

I gave qoute of original words of authors.

If someone wants he or she can analyze paper if I made any mistake, but no.

I don't know why someone should be banned if quoted authors.

What I quoted, for J2b, post #88, everyone can see:

"TMRCA estimates (30 years/generation):
Albanian–Bulgarian cluster: 1781 ± 381 YBP."

Of course paper is not for wider use because it is not given in Internet as whole, and it is only reason why I don't want put as thread although paper is very interesting.


I have known about this this paper (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00438-017-1319-z) as soon as it came out, and I have even analyzed the STR haplotypes. There is only 4 out of 148 J2b-M12 haplotypes, and no mention of comparison with Albanians or Bulgarians.

I have impression that you read only abstract and supplement materials, I have whole paper and can quote more but it can not be exaggerated.

You really are not right, completely.

I give wider quote of authors, page 886:

"Four Hungarian samples split from a common ancestor much earlier (as illustrated by the diversity and the molecular mutational steps shown in Fig. 4), and only one belonged to the Albanian–Bulgarian cluster.

TMRCA estimates (30 years/generation):
Albanian–Bulgarian cluster: 1781 ± 381 YBP."

...
You should apologize to me for words you gave, for no reason.

Trojet
22-10-17, 15:29
Of course, we keep hearing: Mycenaean, Thracian, Dacian, Carpi, Bulgarian, Romanian, Hungarian, etc. As long as no association with Illyrians.

Well, I have news for you. A picture (ancient DNA) is worth a thousand words:

http://i64.tinypic.com/2wcmq10.jpg

Source: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/09/19/135616
Perhaps it would help if you tattoo this picture on your body :laughing:

Dema
22-10-17, 16:42
Seems like i cant quote entire text, anyways, do you guys agree on j2b2 text that stands on Eupedia now?

Sile
22-10-17, 21:58
Mountain who is author of seminal volumes "The Celtic Encyclopedia" studied all Celts plus all people related with Celts.
Mountain found that Illyrians were mining salt at Gmunden, in Austria.
It means according Mountain Illyrians were in present day Austria.
https://www.weather-forecast.com/locationmaps/Gmunden.12.gif
you need to ignore some people on this forum .........but realise that known thracian according to historians started 3200BC in the balkans ..........illyrian 1300BC in the alps.
.
Gimbatus is who you should read.
https://s20.postimg.org/r24kla77h/gimbutas_bronze.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
.
Bronze Age cultures in Central and Eastern Europe
By Marija Gimbutas
.
Halstatt culture ....from Hal in illyrian meaning salt and statt from celtic meaning town ...................the later germans changed statt to stadt for the word town

Yetos
22-10-17, 22:54
Gibutas although is quite good in Yamnaa and central north IE devastation

is tottaly wrong in meditterenean and Anatolian IE

Dema
23-10-17, 14:47
This is text on Eupedia as it stands today with 23 October of 2017.
Can we be more constructive and focus on genetic and facts also try to comment on these texts as they stand on Eupedia.


J2b2-L283: from Neolithic Iran to the Indo-Europeans

J2b has a quite different distribution from J2a. At first sight, the modern distribution of J2b seems to have a stronger association with the Neolithic and Chalcolithic cultures of Southeast Europe. Yet, at present, J2b has never been found in Neolithic, Chalcolithic, nor even Bronze Age Europe, nor in the Fertile Crescent during the Neolithic or Chalcolithic. J2b is also absent from western and central Anatolia, but is present in eastern Anatolia and western Iran, as well as in the Volga-Ural region, notably among the Mordvins, Chuvashs and Tatars. The oldest known J2b sample comes from the Pre-Pottery Neolithic site of Tepe Abdul Hosein in western Iran, dating from approximately 10,000 years ago. This is the strongest evidence that J2b actually originated in the mountains of the Zagros or the Caucasus, rather than in the plains of the Fertile Crescent.The vast majority of J2b lineages belong to J2b2 and its subclades. While J2b* and J2b1 lineages are mostly restricted to the Caucasus, eastern Anatolia and the Balkans, J2b2 is found throughout Europe, in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, in Central Asia and in South Asia, particularly in India. Although J2b2 itself was formed 14,000 years ago, almost all European J2b2 members belong to the L283 branch and share a common patrilineal ancestor who lived 6,000 years ago. What's more, 99% of them fall under the Z628 (aka Z597) clade, with a shared common ancestor who lived only 4,500 years ago. This Z628 clade is also found in India, Armenia and the Levant, among others.The most likely hypothesis is that J2b2a1 (L283) penetrated into the Pontic Steppe region during the Neolithic or Chalcolithic period, by crossing the Caucasus from western Iran, then migrated to the Volga-Ural region, where it was absorbed by the R1a-Z93 (https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml) tribes in the Early Bronze Age. As a minor lineage within the R1a-Z93 dominant populations, it would have expanded from the Volga-Ural region to Central and South Asia with the Indo-Aryan invasions (https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Indo-Iranian) approximately from 4,300 to 3,500 years ago. Other J2b lineages could have ended up in the Balkans during a number of Steppe invasions from the Bronze Age until the Middle Ages (https://www.eupedia.com/history/5000_years_of_steppe_migrations_into_europe.shtml) .Another conceivable possibility is that a minority of J2b2-L283 accompanied R1b-M269 from the Caucasus region and migrated to the Volga-Ural region in the early Bronze Age, propagating with them the Proto-Indo-European language and bronze technology to the Caspian steppe before the expansion of this new culture to Central and South Asia. The drawback of this hypothesis is that it doesn't explain why R1b lineages strongly outnumber J2b2 in Europe but not in South Asia.The oldest J2b2-L283 sample recovered among ancient DNA samples is a Late Bronze Age (1700-1500 BCE) individual from southern Croatia (Mathieson et al. 2017 (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135616)). His genome possessed about 30% of Steppe admixture and 15% of Eastern Hunter-Gatherer, which suggest a recent arrival from the Steppe. He was accompanied by a woman with similar admixtures, and both possessed typical Pontic-Caspian Steppe mtDNA (I1a1 (https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I_mtDNA.shtml) and W3a (https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_W_mtDNA.shtml)). The timing, location and admixtures of these samples fit with the Illyrian colonisation of the Dinaric Alps, which is thought to have taken place between 1600 and 1100 BCE. The Illyrians may have been late Steppe migrants from the Volga region that were forced out of the Steppe by the invasion of the northern R1a tribes who established the Srubna culture (https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/srubna_culture.shtml) (from 2000 BCE). Through a founding effect, J2b2-L283 lineages might have considerably increased their original frequency after reaching Illyria.Both J2b1 and J2b2-L283 are also found at high frequency in Greece and in regions that used to be part of the ancient Greek world (Ionia, Magna Graecia). However they are almost absent from Crete (where J2a1 lineages are dominant). J2b was also not found among Neolithic Anatolian or European farmers, and is absent from central Anatolia. This suggests that J2b was not associated with the Neolithic Greeks nor with the Minoan civilisation, but may well have come to Greece with the Mycenaeans, who also appear to have been pushed out of the Steppe by the advance of the Srubna culture. As a result, both the Illyrians and the Mycenaeans (and possibly the Albanians) would be descended from Middle to Late Bronze Age Steppe migrants to the Southeast Europe, in a migration that was particularly rich in J2b lineages from the Middle Volga region. That would explain why it has been so hard to identify R1a or R1b lineages that could be of Illyrian or Mycenaean origin. The only variety of R1b that is found at reasonably high frequencies in Southeast Europe, and particularly in Greece, is R1b-Z2103 (https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#Greco-Anatolian), the branch found in the eastern Yamna culture, including the Volga-Ural region.

Sile
23-10-17, 20:13
This is text on Eupedia as it stands today with 23 October of 2017.
Can we be more constructive and focus on genetic and facts also try to comment on these texts as they stand on Eupedia.

thanks

as per your link
The timing, location and admixtures of these samples fit with the Illyrian colonisation of the Dinaric Alps, which is thought to have taken place between 1600 and 1100 BCE. The Illyrians may have been late Steppe migrants from the Volga region that were forced out of the Steppe by the invasion of the northern R1a tribes who established the Srubna culture (from 2000 BCE).

Gimbatus estimated it between 1500 and 1300 BC and origins in the eastern alps

The ones that went further south in the bronze-age became , IMO part of the thracian family ..............which according to archaeology, the thracian reached Thessaly and the Pindus mountains in Greece ( that is for another thread )

Garrick
24-10-17, 02:30
You should be banned for deliberately posting disinformation on a regular basis.

It was your fault and you require ban me.

I gave honest way for you to apologize me, but you have no intention.

I am European, I'm not interested if someone is Serb, Finn, Jamaican, Albanian, Lao, etc... only important is character.

Long before I tried to participate in an Albanian site about Hellenic culture as Albanian, Greek gods as Albanian gods, and similar, I had message, found Albanian translator, but when sent momentarily was banned.

Benjamin Franklin: Without freedom of thought, there can be no such thing as wisdom - and no such thing as public liberty without freedom of speech.

Garrick
24-10-17, 02:45
Gibutas although is quite good in Yamnaa and central north IE devastation

is tottaly wrong in meditterenean and Anatolian IE

Generally people (and I sometimes) unintentionally and what is so easier equalize pre-population and proto-population and it is big mistake.

So J2b2 carriers cannot be only one population, after coming to Europe some of them later become Thracians/Dacians/Free Dacians, Greeks, Illyrians, Celts, Italic people etc.

Dianatomia
25-10-17, 18:54
You may read my analysis of Greek J2b2-L283 here (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26644-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin/page12?p=513874&viewfull=1#post513874) and here (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26644-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin/page13?p=514099&viewfull=1#post514099), which was written before we had the Mycenaean ancient DNA. My analysis pointing that current Greek J2b2-L283 subclades are unlikely to be present among Mycenaeans, and are as a result of later migrations from further North (Dorians, Illyrians Thracians, and later Vlachs and Albanians), stands.
Regarding J2b1-M205, as Dema pointed out, in the mainland Balkans (outside of the the Mediterranean), all of it seems to fall under J2b1-M205>PH4306>Y22066 and has a TMRCA of only ca. 900-1500 years, which suggests it was likely not present there before the common era, hence the reason why (Gheg) Albanians are almost completely lacking it. Unfortunately, many people don't understand haplogroup J2b quite well, so they assume they are part of the same migration. True, J2b1-M205 has a TMRCA of ca. 6000 years, but in ancient DNA is consistently being found in the Levant area. It's distribution is actually quite reminiscent of some branches of haplogroup J2a.
So far the only J2b that has "deep roots" (high TMRCA) in Europe, and found in ancient DNA from the Bronze Age or before (in Croatia) is J2b2-L283, which as we know reaches maximum frequency among (Gheg) Albanians, while being quite low everywhere else, albeit with some representation among Vlachs and Greeks.

We don't know whether Myceneans had no J2b at all. The proto-Hellenes may have had some, but in the South they mixed with Minoan natives who where the overwhelming majority. In the North areas of Greece, the peoples may have been slightly different. Areas of Thessaly and Epirus may therefore had a lot more j2b than South Greece during the late Bronze Age. In any case, we do need more ancient comparing material. For now we only have two Myceneans from Southern mainland Greece. The others are from Crete. So I am a still a bit reserved as to whether Myceneans didn't have J2b. Esecially since old J2b1 is in seen in Greece and Italy. The thing is that if we do find traces of J2b in ancient specimens of mainland Greece, we will have the first evidence of some genetic variety within the Ancient Greek genetic mainframe.

As for the Ghegh Albanians, they have evaded old Mediterranean J2b1 as well as the younger J2b1-M205>PH4306>Y22066. It seems to me to be evidence of the fact that they were pretty much isolated until recently. And that they expanded rather rapidly.

Dema
03-11-17, 14:04
As for the Ghegh Albanians, they have evaded old Mediterranean J2b1 as well as the younger J2b1-M205>PH4306>Y22066. It seems to me to be evidence of the fact that they were pretty much isolated until recently. And that they expanded rather rapidly.

We have so far 3 Albanians confirmed with j2b1 (out of maybe more then 1000 samples), from which two are Ghegs and one Tosk. We have both Mediterranean coastal and Balkan mainland branches found among these 3 samples.

Fustan
17-12-17, 16:01
Map of the haplogroup
http://i64.tinypic.com/4fv0ar.png

Angela
17-12-17, 18:15
^^Interesting. I wonder why the hotspot in eastern France going into Italy?

Balkanite
17-12-17, 18:24
Actually ernekar wrote about that hotspot on the albanian forum. It is not i France, but in Piedmont region of Italy. There was like 11% J2-m241 if i remember correctly.

My quess would be that the northern Illyrians(or maybe proto-illyrians) could have entered northern Italy by sailing of Istria during the late bronze age or a little later.

It would be interesting to test deeper, and see when they arrived in piedmont.

Salento
17-12-17, 18:35
^^Interesting. I wonder why the hotspot in eastern France going into Italy?

That’s not my Haplogroup, I get some relation on the genetic Communities in that area. Illyrians came to Puglia.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171217/77298006a8357a261186f83dce61ebb7.jpg

Balkanite
17-12-17, 19:18
Illyrians came to Puglia.

Yes illyrians came to pugla rather late. When they were practically fully formed. That is why i said "maybe proto-illyrians", as i was suggesting that these could have been earlier migrations than those who went to puglia to form the Messapi.

But it was also just a guess.

In my eyes there is 2 scenarios which are most likely.
1. Early or late illyrians settled there during the bronze age or during antiquity.
2. Somehow some arbereshe went the opposite way of the other arbeshe during the middle ages, and ended up in northen italy rather than southern Italy.

Why i think nr. 2 i kind of unlikely:
When arbereshe went to italy, italy was not yet united.
And the arbereshe settled in what was then Kingdom of Naples(southern italy).
And that was because Scanderbeg and the albanians had fought off a north-african siege of naples some years ealier.
So as a "thank you" to the albanians, for saving the southern italians arses, the albanians were allowed to settle in the kingdom of naples after the ottoman conquest of albania and scanderbegs death.
And as the albanians didn't save the northern italians arses, i dont see why they should let us settle in northern italy in the middle ages.

Beside these two scenarios, there are also lots of other posibilities as to how J2b2 reached piemonte, but i consider those too unlikely to mention them at all.

Balkanite
17-12-17, 19:28
There is also another possibility i forgot.
That an balkanite-dominated legion of the roman army, stood guard there to prevent gauls from entering italy.
Some of them eventually settled and created several founder effects among the villages in the area.

blevins13
17-12-17, 21:31
^^Interesting. I wonder why the hotspot in eastern France going into Italy?

Interesting question


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Ownstyler
17-02-18, 19:41
Yes samples from relevant epoches and historical areas are proof,but unfortunately for now we have very small number of Thracian samples, and for Free Dacian there no samples.
But we know that in Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary in today's population there are J2b2 carriers, for example in descendants of Bassarab, first rulers of independent Wallachia (Romanian area) found 16 J2b2 carriers (in Internet is information that 7 J2b2 samples belong to one of the Albanian J2b2, can anyone confirm this).
In recent scientific paper scientists named J2b2 Albanian-Bulgarian cluster, and found one person in furthermost North-Western in Hungary (Carpathian area) who belongs to this cluster (maybe this person can be descendant of Free Dacians because they lived there).
Garrick I don't know if you just don't understand this topic at all, or (more likely) you just want to spread misinformation to undermine the Illyrian-Albanian continuity through haplogroup J2. Anyway, I'll be open minded about your intentions and briefly school you on this, hopefully clarifying for others who might have been confused by your posts.
You are implying that J2b2-M12 among Albanians is not necessarily from Illyrians, but it could be from Thracians or Dacians. Here is why you're wrong:

1. The only Bronze Age J2b2-L283 found until now was firmly in Illyrian territory. If Bulgarians or others have it today it might have been spread from, not to, Illyria.

2. You wrongly cite that study to claim that Albanians with M12 have a common ancestor from around 1.7k years ago. However, the study says, on page 886: "most Albanians and Bulgarians clustered together". Not all, most. So the TMRCA of J2b2-M12 Albanians is NOT 1782 YBP, that is just the TMRCA of the one group that the authors identified as similar.

To find the real TMRCA of J2b2-L283 Albanians (same subclade as the one found in Bronze Age Croatia), you can easily go to the Albanian Bloodlines website (I can't post links yet), to see what subclades Albanians belong to, and then to the yfull website, the page on J-L283, to see their TMRCA. Clearly, Albanians are spread over the JZ1296 subclade, whith a TMRCA 4300 BP.

3. The same study you cite, on page 889, Figure 4, clearly states that even the portion of J2b2-M12 that shows an Albanian-Bulgarian similarity actually has an Albanian founder. So if it spread in any direction it probably spread from Albania, or at least Western Balkan, eastwards.

Sile
17-02-18, 21:32
Garrick I don't know if you just don't understand this topic at all, or (more likely) you just want to spread misinformation to undermine the Illyrian-Albanian continuity through haplogroup J2. Anyway, I'll be open minded about your intentions and briefly school you on this, hopefully clarifying for others who might have been confused by your posts.

You are implying that J2b2-M12 among Albanians is not necessarily from Illyrians, but it could be from Thracians or Dacians. Here is why you're wrong:

1. The only Bronze Age J2b2-L283 found until now was firmly in Illyrian territory. If Bulgarians or others have it today it might have been spread from, not to, Illyria.
2. You wrongly cite that study to claim that Albanians with M12 have a common ancestor from around 1.7k years ago. However, the study says, on page 886: "most Albanians and Bulgarians clustered together". Not all, most. So the TMRCA of J2b2-M12 Albanians is NOT 1782 YBP, that is just the TMRCA of the one group that the authors identified as similar.
To find the real TMRCA of J2b2-L283 Albanians (same subclade as the one found in Bronze Age Croatia), you can easily go to the Albanian Bloodlines website (I can't post links yet), to see what subclades Albanians belong to, and then to the yfull website, the page on J-L283, to see their TMRCA. Clearly, Albanians are spread over the JZ1296 subclade, whith a TMRCA 4300 BP.
3. The same study you cite, on page 889, Figure 4, clearly states that even the portion of J2b2-M12 that shows an Albanian-Bulgarian similarity actually has an Albanian founder. So if it spread in any direction it probably spread from Albania, or at least Western Balkan, eastwards.

IMO....if the marker is late bronze age in the area noted........it could only be thracian or the sub branch of thracian noted as Dorian , Dorians lived between the greeks and illyrians ( eastern alps )......the Dorians had to have been on the adriatic coast because they had to have a fleet to conquer crete, rhodes and other greek islands ...........the other marker found was J2a in roughly the same area.......which matches Roman J2a later on

Ownstyler
18-02-18, 00:13
This is just your subjective interpretation, just as valid as countless others, which doesn't counter my point anyway. The reality of the limited data we have now though, clearly establishes a local continuity of the J2b2-L283.

What J2a are you talking about? Do you have a reference? I don't see it in the map.

Trojet
18-02-18, 05:59
This is just your subjective interpretation, just as valid as countless others, which doesn't counter my point anyway. The reality of the limited data we have now though, clearly establishes a local continuity of the J2b2-L283.
What J2a are you talking about? Do you have a reference? I don't see it in the map.

You got it right! No J2a was found "in roughly the same area". Sile and Garrick will even make things up, just to deny any Illyrian-Albanian continuity, like they have done for the last 7 years at Eupedia. Very unprofessional to say the least...

Sile
18-02-18, 06:31
This is just your subjective interpretation, just as valid as countless others, which doesn't counter my point anyway. The reality of the limited data we have now though, clearly establishes a local continuity of the J2b2-L283.

What J2a are you talking about? Do you have a reference? I don't see it in the map.

the same J2a which is in the same 2017 paper as the J2b for the same time period and for the same area

Sile
18-02-18, 06:36
You got it right! No J2a was found "in roughly the same area". Sile and Garrick will even make things up, just to deny any Illyrian-Albanian continuity, like they have done for the last 7 years at Eupedia. Very unprofessional to say the least...

https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-l283-origins-by-diversity-and-subgroups-focus-jewish-lineages/

why are you not seeing this ...........

Ownstyler
18-02-18, 09:34
LINK
why are you not seeing this ...........

I just checked the whole thing and there is nothing written there at all about J2a. Also, the map, which has all the DNA data from the paper you mentioned, doesn't show any Bronze Age J2a, except much further South, in the Crete and the Peloponnese.

I would suggest you either provide the exact quotes that refer to J2a, or admit you made the whole thing up and delete your two previous posts.

Sile
18-02-18, 18:17
I just checked the whole thing and there is nothing written there at all about J2a. Also, the map, which has all the DNA data from the paper you mentioned, doesn't show any Bronze Age J2a, except much further South, in the Crete and the Peloponnese.

I would suggest you either provide the exact quotes that refer to J2a, or admit you made the whole thing up and delete your two previous posts.

my post #115 is about the thread title ............how can it even be contemplated that it is proto-Illyrian

..........if you want the J2a read mathieson 2017 paper

Trojet
18-02-18, 18:29
the same J2a which is in the same 2017 paper as the J2b for the same time period and for the same area

There was a Neolithic J2a found farther North, but absolutely not in the same time period and in the same area as the Bronze Age Dalmatian J2b2-L283.

Ownstyler
18-02-18, 22:00
..........if you want the J2a read mathieson 2017 paper

I have already read that paper. Where is the Illyrian territory Bronze Age J2a mentioned? Can you quote it? What page?

Aspurg
04-03-18, 06:00
Greetings, I'd like to share my view that certain, likely crucial, facts have not been mentioned by anyone as far as I know.

J2b2 sample found at Veliki Vanik is identifiable archaeologically, and that should be the starting point in deliberating about it's origins.

"The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe"
Radiocarbon dates and preserved artifacts (hair ornament made of coiled copper
wire and fragments of pottery) date these burials to the Early/Middle Bronze Age.28
28
Mucić, K. & Kovačević Bokarica, N. Doprinosi poznavanju povijesti Vrgoračke krajine
na osnovi rezultata novijih arheoloških istraživanja. In: Arheološka istraživanja na trasi
autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini (ed M Tomasović) 125-212 (Gradski muzej Makarska,
2011).


Majića gradina (drinovci) - novo nalazište licenske keramike u Hercegovini (new site of litzen ware in Herzegovina)

https://hrcak.srce.hr/file/247012
"nego se konvencionalno takva vrsta nalaza, bilo da su oni ukrašeni otiskivanjem dvonitne uzice ili otkane tkanice/vrpce, često deklarira kao licenska.16"

16 Usp. B. Čović, "Posuška kultura", 70, 75, 77-78, T. VIII, 5, T. X, 5, 4; Marinko Tomasović, "Arheološka topografija lijeve strane donjeg toka Cetine", u: Jacqueline Balen - Hrvoje Potrebica (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja u cetinskoj krajini, Izdanja Hrvatskoga arheološkog društva, vol. 27, Zagreb, 2011., T. I, 5-6; Vedran Katavić - Ana Sunko Katavić - Andrea Devlahović, "Istraživanje grobnog tumula, dviju vrtača, gradine i gradinice u Gornjim Rašćanima kod Vrgorca", u: Marinko Tomasović (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja na trasi autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini, Makarska, 2011., str. 46, kat. jed. 7; Konstanta Mucić - Nela Kovačević Bokarica, "Doprinosi poznavanju povijesti Vrgoračke krajine na osnovi rezultata novijih arheoloških istraživanja", u: Marinko Tomasović (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja na trasi autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini, Makarska, 2011., str. 130, kat. jed. 2; B. Marijanović, nav. dj., str. 105, T. LXXXV, 5; T. LXXXVI, 1,2; Ivan Šuta, "Korištenje vrtača u prapovijesti Dalmacije", u: Tusculum, 6, Solin, 2013., str. 11-12, sl. 6.


So, the Veliki Vanik sample belongs to what archaeologist Borivoj Čović calls "Posušje culture", while prof. Blagoje Govedarica designated it as "Dinara culture". Characterized by "Litzen" ware, this culture has clear ties to Apennine peninsula. Probably further this M241 element is to be traced to Ljubljana culture, and Ljubljana culture has clear, strong and undeniable Bell Beaker substrate. For example Paola Korošec was of the opinion that Bell Beaker element even eliminated the residual Vučedol element that was present in Ig I (early Ljubljana) phase. Some other archaeologists were of the opinion that they "got along" somehow. Anyway Korošec traced Bell Beaker element to Remedello culture of northern Italy. Steppe mtdna W3a was also found in I3607 Bell Beaker sample in Deggendorf, Bavaria. All this, in my view, clearly suggests that M241 was this Bell Beaker element. I do not believe phylogenetic structure of J-M241 allows for an "out of steppe" migratory path, rather as all older subclades and seemingly archaeology suggests, J-M241 spread from Italy.

It should be noted that Dinara culture was very clearly different from neighboring Cetina culture, which additionally enforces the hypothesis put up by Raf Ceustermans that E-V13 spread out of Cetina culture.
Cetina culture was nomadic and cattle-breeding, while Dinara culture relied heavily on fortifications and agriculture.

So J-M241 is very much proto-Illyrian, and likely the most important genetic element in what would later become Illyrians, as I strongly believe E-V13 through Cetina culture made contact with a very different Indo-European element such as Z2103 (older clades) Vučedol or/and another non-Vučedol element that was arriving directly out of steppe and likely proto-Greek. Extensions of both Dinara/Posušje and Cetina cultures existed further down south, in Albania (Nezir and Maliq respectively for instance). And it can be seen that they did coexist for some time, and even later former managed to spread at the expense of the latter (in the western areas at least). It would appear that E-V13, being more nomadic, migrated much more to the East and far South (Cetina ware on Peloponnese EHIII). Those Vučedol elements that stayed played role in Illyrian ethnogenesis.


So, I think we've got a solution for J-M241: local Italian element that was "beakerised".:) So yes it was arriving as an Indoeuropean element to Western Balkans. Additionally this sample, being J-Y15058*, indicates even this clade that has presence in the East (Bulgarians, Aromanians) has ultimately Western-Balkan origin.

Aspurg
04-03-18, 23:45
I seem to have made an error earlier while posting here.. Anyway, regarding this Veliki Vanik find, it is archaeologically identifiable:

Footnote from "The Genomic History Of Southeastern Europe"
Radiocarbon dates and preserved artifacts (hair ornament made of coiled copper wire and fragments of pottery) date these burials to the Early/Middle Bronze Age.28


28
Mucić, K. & Kovačević Bokarica, N. Doprinosi poznavanju povijesti Vrgoračke krajine
na osnovi rezultata novijih arheoloških istraživanja. In: Arheološka istraživanja na trasi
autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini (ed M Tomasović) 125-212 (Gradski muzej Makarska,
2011).


One last year's work:
Majića gradina (Drinovci) - novo nalazište licenske keramike u Hercegovini (new find of Litzen ware in Herzegovina)


U kulturnom i kronološkom pogledu navedene razlike nisu toliko izražene, barem ne u kontekstu promatrane kulturne regije, gdje često i ne postoji uža distinkcija prema načinu izvođenja ornamenta, nego se konvencionalno takva vrsta nalaza, bilo da su oni ukrašeni otiskivanjem dvonitne uzice ili otkane tkanice/vrpce, često deklarira kao licenska.16


16 Usp. B. Čović, "Posuška kultura", 70, 75, 77-78, T. VIII, 5, T. X, 5, 4; Marinko Tomasović, "Arheološka topografija lijeve strane donjeg toka Cetine", u: Jacqueline Balen - Hrvoje Potrebica (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja u cetinskoj krajini, Izdanja Hrvatskoga arheološkog društva, vol. 27, Zagreb, 2011., T. I, 5-6; Vedran Katavić - Ana Sunko Katavić - Andrea Devlahović, "Istraživanje grobnog tumula, dviju vrtača, gradine i gradinice u Gornjim Rašćanima kod Vrgorca", u: Marinko Tomasović (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja na trasi autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini, Makarska, 2011., str. 46, kat. jed. 7; Konstanta Mucić - Nela Kovačević Bokarica, "Doprinosi poznavanju povijesti Vrgoračke krajine na osnovi rezultata novijih arheoloških istraživanja", u: Marinko Tomasović (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja na trasi autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini, Makarska, 2011., str. 130, kat. jed. 2; B. Marijanović, nav. dj., str. 105, T. LXXXV, 5; T. LXXXVI, 1,2; Ivan Šuta, "Korištenje vrtača u prapovijesti Dalmacije", u: Tusculum, 6, Solin, 2013., str. 11-12, sl. 6.


So Litzen ware clearly places Veliki Vanik in the context of what B.Čović called Posušje culture, while Govedarica classified it as Dinara culture. Dinara culture was markedly different in comparison to neighboring Cetina culture, as you know Raf Ceustermans of E-M35 Project already put up a hypothesis of connection between E-V13 and Cetina culture. Tying J-M241 with coexisting neighboring Dinara culture actually adds indirectly additional weight to his hypothesis.
It must be said that Dinara culture has clear ties to Apennine Peninsula. It's origin can be through some connections be further traced to Ljubljana culture. Ljubljana culture had strong and clear Bell Bekaer element. In it's first phase Vuledol element was present, then at the end of it came the Bell Beaker element, some archaeologists suggested they coexisted and together proceeded to the south, but Slovenian archaeologist Paola Korošec was of the opinion that Bell Beaker element destroyed Vučedol element. W3a is a steppe mtdna, but it was also found in one Bell Beaker sample from Deggendorf, Bavaria. She traced this Bell Beaker element to north Italian Remedello culture. And that brings us to J-M241, as all older clades are found in Italy, I strongly believe J-M241 is this Bell Beaker element. So it was an indoeuropean element coming not from the steppes but from the West. All in all, I believe this J2b2 find explains itself very nicely, the nature of this culture and location of early M241 clades just fit nicely.

It is without doubt proto-Illyrian, and likely J-M241 might have been the most numerous Illyrian hg. Additionally this sample being J-Y15058* points that even several clades under it that have ties to Eastern Balkans (Bulgarians, Aromanians) ultimately have western origins.

E-V13 is another theme, but I think Indoeuropean element V13 encountered was markedly different from Bell Beakers. Likely all E-V13's are a "grecoid" population originally, they migrated much more eastwards and southwards, but those clades that stayed of course played their part in ethnogenesis of Illyrians.

Leka
05-03-18, 00:28
'Grecoid' lmao....

Trojet
05-03-18, 03:32
It is without doubt proto-Illyrian, and likely J-M241 might have been the most numerous Illyrian hg. Additionally this sample being J-Y15058* points that even several clades under it that have ties to Eastern Balkans (Bulgarians, Aromanians) ultimately have western origins.

Interesting observation. I tend to agree with you here. However, I believe E-V13 might've been just as common as J2b2 if not more, especially during the Iron Age. We'll see what future aDNA tells us.


And that brings us to J-M241, as all older clades are found in Italy, I strongly believe J-M241 is this Bell Beaker element. So it was an indoeuropean element coming not from the steppes but from the West. All in all, I believe this J2b2 find explains itself very nicely, the nature of this culture and location of early M241 clades just fit nicely.

You seem to be only looking at YFull tree, which tells a quarter of the picture. It is heavily biased towards Italy due to 1200 Sardinian Sequences from the Francalacci study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23908240). Although J2b2-L283 is pretty diverse in Italy/Sardinia and could've very well expanded from there as suggested by these older clades, there is a major problem with the theory that it expanded from Italy or the west. Besides Bronze Age Croatia, J2b2-L283 has also been found in Late Bronze Age Armenia. Furthermore, the ancient Armenian sample is negative for Z627, which means he was J-L283* and "older" than any modern sample. If it expanded from Italy, IMO it would be very unlikely a J-L283* would end up all the way in Bronze Age Armenia with Steppe admixture and Steppe mtDNA. Also, at J-M241 Project we now have samples upstream of Z628 aka Z597 basically all over Europe. National Geographic Geno 2 samples suggest the same, there is even two L283+ and Z585- samples in the Balkans, so these "older" clades are not restricted mainly to Italy as the YFull tree suggests.

Considering the above mentioned data, no Neolithic aDNA J2b2 in Europe/Anatolia, and that it must have come from the East (oldest J2b found in early Neolithic western Iran), at this point I believe the area of the Steppe or north Caucuses is the most likely expansion of J2b2-L283 in a migration that mostly went to Balkans/Italy, with Z597>Z2507 subclades going through some founder effects after reaching the western Balkans in the Bronze Age.

ad0nis
06-03-18, 02:00
I am J2b2 from Kosovo if you're wondering :)

Trojet
06-03-18, 03:14
I am J2b2 from Kosovo if you're wondering :)

Welcome to the club :) Just curious, what tribe/clan do you belong to, and where have you tested?

Aspurg
06-03-18, 03:15
Interesting observation. I tend to agree with you here. However, I believe E-V13 might've been just as common as J2b2 if not more, especially during the Iron Age. We'll see what future aDNA tells us.


Well, this Dinara culture became somewhat more widespread and probably had greater influence in the west, however in the southeast, in modern day Albania there were more robust outposts of Cetina culture (like Maliq), and I’d expect there possibly more V13. Also southward expansion of Dinara culture was for ex. Nezir III, so it is likely many Albanian J-L283 derive from there.






You seem to be only looking at YFull tree, which tells a quarter of the picture. It is heavily biased towards Italy due to 1200 Sardinian Sequences from the Francalacci study. Although J2b2-L283 is pretty diverse in Italy/Sardinia and could've very well expanded from there as suggested by these older clades, there is a major problem with the theory that it expanded from Italy or the west. Besides Bronze Age Croatia, J2b2-L283 has also been found in Late Bronze Age Armenia. Furthermore, the ancient Armenian sample is negative for Z627, which means he was J-L283* and "older" than any modern sample. If it expanded from Italy, IMO it would be very unlikely a J-L283* would end up all the way in Bronze Age Armenia with Steppe admixture and Steppe mtDNA. Also, at J-M241 Project we now have samples upstream of Z628 aka Z597 basically all over Europe. National Geographic Geno 2 samples suggest the same, there is even two L283+ and Z585- samples in the Balkans, so these "older" clades are not restricted mainly to Italy as the YFull tree suggests.
Considering the above mentioned data, no Neolithic aDNA J2b2 in Europe/Anatolia, and that it must have come from the East (oldest J2b found in early Neolithic western Iran), at this point I believe the area of the Steppe or north Caucuses is the most likely expansion of J2b2-L283 in a migration that mostly went to Balkans/Italy, with Z597>Z2507 subclades going through some founder effects after reaching the western Balkans in the Bronze Age.


Thanks for bringing up that J-L283*, somebody once mentioned it to me but I forgot it. Also I didn’t know about those two Z585-. Where are they from?


My points:
1. While it is true that Sardinian sample is over-represented, and here and there various clades of various hg's are found, this case is an exception. I know of ftdna results, but I have never seen thus far any such haplotype there. Due to age they probably have some more specific STR values, so it would be interesting to search for them in anonymous studies.
Still this sample has shown that on Sardinia itself Z597- leads Z597+ by 7 to 3. Because the sample is so large, this ratio of older vs younger clades is reliable. Meanwhile the situation is opposite on the Balkans: 2 to 8 (on Yfull alone). IMO this does not seem accidental. Greater diversity of older clades always implies the origin point regardless of the spread and number of younger clades.


2. Sardinia has oldest clades, quick summary
- YP29 TMRCA 6000 ybp
-- J-Z600* TMRCA 5400 ybp
-- J-YP157 TMRCA 5400 ybp
--- J-M5903 (YP113) TMRCA 5400 ybp
--- J-YP50


This sort of diversity and estimated TMRCA values does IMO clearly suggest that L283 was present in Sardinia within the 4000-3400 BC timeframe. Which predates any arrival of Indoeuropeans, that is Bell Beakers, on Sardinia. Sardinia was more isolated from the mainland Europe, and today this is obvious genetically. This fact alone may be judged as sufficient to exclude "steppe" arrival.
True expansion of course begins c. 2400 BC with J-Z597 whose TMRCA does approximately correspond with the contact with Bell Beakers, indoeuropeanisation of J2-L283, and subsequent expansion towards Balkans where it arrives with steppe admixture including one mtdna that was found in Bell Beakers in Bavaria.


3. Sardinian sample also some very early clades under J-Z597: J-Y15058 and J-YP9 under Z638. This IMO suggests that few of these newer clades under Z597 remained there after contact with Bell Beakers.


4. Armenian L283* can be an indoeuropeanised local, who never migrated anywhere, due to heavy presence of the entire J2 in this broader area. Actually what would be better for steppe hypothesis is that some younger clade, under J-Z597 was found.


5. As J-Z597 does descend from older Sardinian clades, in order for it to be of steppe origin, what is required is a migration from Sardinia, let's say by sea, through Mediterranean Sea, Aegean Sea, Bosporus, Black Sea north towards the Pontic Steppe where it is indoeuropeanised there. Incredibly some of younger clades from the steppe come back to Sardinia. First migration is extremely unlikely and if it did occur then some other Sardinian haplogroups should have been be part of is as well.


6. L283 might have arrived later in Neolithic to Sardinia in comparison to early main waves.


So sum it up Sardinian clades and their TMRCA pose IMO an insurmountable obstacle for the Steppe origin theory.




In addition the archaeological evidence I presented does imply clear Apennine Peninsula ties of this culture in particular where balkan L283 was found. In fact archaeologist B.Čović suggested at the end of his work that specifically these ties should be further researched. It's seemingly parent culture has strong Bell Beaker element, and remember one sample has BB mtdna.




I believe only combining the aDNA, modern dna data, archaeological, historical, linguistic, onomastical evidence can produce adequate results. So it is of fundamental importance that each aDNA find is precisely identified, archeological evidence is crucial for this prehistorical timeframe, and in this case it does agree with my theory.


Additionally archaeological evidence should be used to identify links of subsequent Late Bronze, early Iron Age Illyrian sub-cultures, in order to identify Illyrian tribes that were likely to have been "heavy" with J-L283.
True we need more aDNA, but there were so many Illyrian tribes, and we are not likely to get that much data any time soon.

Trojet
06-03-18, 03:56
Thanks for bringing up that J-L283*, somebody once mentioned it to me but I forgot it. Also I didn’t know about those two Z585-. Where are they from?

They're Geno 2 testers, one is from Romania, the other from Serbia. According to the SNPs they have tested, they are somewhere in between J-L283 and Z585. I haven't seen them in any FTDNA projects, but I know they exist thanks to Rafc.


This sort of diversity and estimated TMRCA values does IMO clearly suggest that L283 was present in Sardinia within the 4000-3400 BC timeframe. Which predates any arrival of Indoeuropeans, that is Bell Beakers, on Sardinia. Sardinia was more isolated from the mainland Europe, and today this is obvious genetically. This fact alone may be judged as sufficient to exclude "steppe" arrival.
True expansion of course begins c. 2400 BC with J-Z597 whose TMRCA does approximately correspond with the contact with Bell Beakers, indoeuropeanisation of J2-L283, and subsequent expansion towards Balkans where it arrives with steppe admixture including one mtdna that was found in Bell Beakers in Bavaria.

3. Sardinian sample also some very early clades under J-Z597: J-Y15058 and J-YP9 under Z638. This IMO suggests that few of these newer clades under Z597 remained there after contact with Bell Beakers.

4. Armenian L283* can be an indoeuropeanised local, who never migrated anywhere, due to heavy presence of the entire J2 in this broader area. Actually what would be better for steppe hypothesis is that some younger clade, under J-Z597 was found.

First of all, if you knew anything about phylogeny, you would know the bolded sentences don't go together. You claim that J-L283 was in Sardinia since ~4000 BC, which is roughly at the time of expansion. But then you claim the LBA Armenian was just a local J-L283* who never migrated and got "Indo-Europeanized". Under your theory, the Armenian J-L283* cannot be a local remnant before this haplogroup would've made it to Sardinia, as he was positive for many SNPs at the J-L283 level, so he must've been a "fully developed" J-L283 and a back-migrant from Sardinia, which is very unlikely given my arguments in the previous post (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34165-J2b2-L283-(proto-illyrian)/page5?p=534233&viewfull=1#post534233), and trumps any points based on modern diversity, archaeology, etc, that you bring up.

There is actually an Armenian from Georgia tested: L283+ and Z1296-. His STRs clearly suggest he is Y15058- The only unknown is Z638 but in all likelihood he is negative for this also, so he should be somewhere in between L283 and Z2507. Currently, hard to predict those levels based on STRs. Furthermore, the FTDNA J2 SNP Pack doesn't test for anything in between L283 and Z628 aka Z597. So it's hard to know where exactly such haplotypes belong, besides that they're spread basically all over Europe.

I'm not ruling out the Italian/Sardinian expansion. In fact, I held this theory way before you did. But the LBA Armenian J-L283* changed my opinion. And therefore now combined with the BA Croatian and other data, I think the Steppe or North Caucasus expansion is more likely.

Trojet
06-03-18, 19:07
@Aspurg, go back to Poreklo and sell your theories there, just like you sell other wishful thinking theories, by recycling cherry-picking low-res STRs from scientific studies (Albanians = Bessi, Carpi, etc). I know there you will get a pass because it fits the agenda of your audience. Here, in the meantime, you got schooled and owned!

Yaan
06-03-18, 19:55
No he does not.

Ownstyler
06-03-18, 22:52
I seem to have made an error earlier while posting here.. Anyway, regarding this Veliki Vanik find, it is archaeologically identifiable:

Footnote from "The Genomic History Of Southeastern Europe"
Radiocarbon dates and preserved artifacts (hair ornament made of coiled copper wire and fragments of pottery) date these burials to the Early/Middle Bronze Age.28


28
Mucić, K. & Kovačević Bokarica, N. Doprinosi poznavanju povijesti Vrgoračke krajine
na osnovi rezultata novijih arheoloških istraživanja. In: Arheološka istraživanja na trasi
autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini (ed M Tomasović) 125-212 (Gradski muzej Makarska,
2011).


One last year's work:
Majića gradina (Drinovci) - novo nalazište licenske keramike u Hercegovini (new find of Litzen ware in Herzegovina)


U kulturnom i kronološkom pogledu navedene razlike nisu toliko izražene, barem ne u kontekstu promatrane kulturne regije, gdje često i ne postoji uža distinkcija prema načinu izvođenja ornamenta, nego se konvencionalno takva vrsta nalaza, bilo da su oni ukrašeni otiskivanjem dvonitne uzice ili otkane tkanice/vrpce, često deklarira kao licenska.16


16 Usp. B. Čović, "Posuška kultura", 70, 75, 77-78, T. VIII, 5, T. X, 5, 4; Marinko Tomasović, "Arheološka topografija lijeve strane donjeg toka Cetine", u: Jacqueline Balen - Hrvoje Potrebica (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja u cetinskoj krajini, Izdanja Hrvatskoga arheološkog društva, vol. 27, Zagreb, 2011., T. I, 5-6; Vedran Katavić - Ana Sunko Katavić - Andrea Devlahović, "Istraživanje grobnog tumula, dviju vrtača, gradine i gradinice u Gornjim Rašćanima kod Vrgorca", u: Marinko Tomasović (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja na trasi autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini, Makarska, 2011., str. 46, kat. jed. 7; Konstanta Mucić - Nela Kovačević Bokarica, "Doprinosi poznavanju povijesti Vrgoračke krajine na osnovi rezultata novijih arheoloških istraživanja", u: Marinko Tomasović (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja na trasi autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini, Makarska, 2011., str. 130, kat. jed. 2; B. Marijanović, nav. dj., str. 105, T. LXXXV, 5; T. LXXXVI, 1,2; Ivan Šuta, "Korištenje vrtača u prapovijesti Dalmacije", u: Tusculum, 6, Solin, 2013., str. 11-12, sl. 6.


So Litzen ware clearly places Veliki Vanik in the context of what B.Čović called Posušje culture, while Govedarica classified it as Dinara culture. Dinara culture was markedly different in comparison to neighboring Cetina culture, as you know Raf Ceustermans of E-M35 Project already put up a hypothesis of connection between E-V13 and Cetina culture. Tying J-M241 with coexisting neighboring Dinara culture actually adds indirectly additional weight to his hypothesis.
It must be said that Dinara culture has clear ties to Apennine Peninsula. It's origin can be through some connections be further traced to Ljubljana culture. Ljubljana culture had strong and clear Bell Bekaer element. In it's first phase Vuledol element was present, then at the end of it came the Bell Beaker element, some archaeologists suggested they coexisted and together proceeded to the south, but Slovenian archaeologist Paola Korošec was of the opinion that Bell Beaker element destroyed Vučedol element. W3a is a steppe mtdna, but it was also found in one Bell Beaker sample from Deggendorf, Bavaria. She traced this Bell Beaker element to north Italian Remedello culture. And that brings us to J-M241, as all older clades are found in Italy, I strongly believe J-M241 is this Bell Beaker element. So it was an indoeuropean element coming not from the steppes but from the West. All in all, I believe this J2b2 find explains itself very nicely, the nature of this culture and location of early M241 clades just fit nicely.

It is without doubt proto-Illyrian, and likely J-M241 might have been the most numerous Illyrian hg. Additionally this sample being J-Y15058* points that even several clades under it that have ties to Eastern Balkans (Bulgarians, Aromanians) ultimately have western origins.

E-V13 is another theme, but I think Indoeuropean element V13 encountered was markedly different from Bell Beakers. Likely all E-V13's are a "grecoid" population originally, they migrated much more eastwards and southwards, but those clades that stayed of course played their part in ethnogenesis of Illyrians.

Aspurg, in addition to the Armenian results brought up by Trojet, according to Maciamo, in the J2 Eupedia page, the J2b2-L283 found in Coratia had substantial Steppe DNA autosomally. This person was found together with a woman whose autosomal DNA was also substantially Steppe. Both these results suggest they came from the Steppe not too long before 1700 BC.

Unless J2b2 migrated from Sardinia all the way to Armenia, and then back to Croatia, your theory does not hold.

LABERIA
07-03-18, 00:53
Map of the haplogroup
http://i64.tinypic.com/4fv0ar.png

I find very interesting this map posted by Fustan. Do you think exist some connection between this map and this article (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32240-Ancient-Albanian-customs-and-traditions?p=514649&viewfull=1#post514649)? Basically is the same region of France.

Aspurg
07-03-18, 02:46
First of all, if you knew anything about phylogeny, you would know the bolded sentences don't go together. You claim that J-L283 was in Sardinia since ~4000 BC, which is roughly at the time of expansion. But then you claim the LBA Armenian was just a local J-L283* who never migrated and got "Indo-Europeanized". Under your theory, the Armenian J-L283* cannot be a local remnant before this haplogroup would've made it to Sardinia, as he was positive for many SNPs at the J-L283 level, so he must've been a "fully developed" J-L283 and a back-migrant from Sardinia, which is very unlikely given my arguments in the previous post, and trumps any points based on modern diversity, archaeology, etc, that you bring up.



I was going by what you had told me: that he is "older" and Z627-. I saw more of his SNPs so he seems to be on J-Z600 level. That reduces the timeframe somewhat and increases the likelihood for out-of-steppe migration along with that Georgian (depending where he is exactly) but still does not guarantee it. You know there were some expansions of J2 clades in that timeframe westwards.
But even if it is from the Steppe, then older clades and archaeology would suggest arrival to Italy first and then subsequently expansion towards Balkans. Still I'd have to go for BB's.







go back to Poreklo and sell your theories there, just like you sell other wishful thinking theories, by recycling cherry-picking low-res STRs from scientific studies (Albanians = Bessi, Carpi, etc).

As the number of privately tested individuals in the entire Balkan region is still low, one must rely on scientific studies. I try to take into account studies which have at least 17 markers, but depending on haplogroup even those with less markers can be quite useful (also depending on specific markers). Also studies with regional and sub-ethnic variation are more relevant.
And any anonymous study with a sufficiently large and diversified sample is more relevant than ftdna projects (unless they are very large) if it's about percentages of hg's.
Poreklo has tested far more people. On the other hand for the genetic makeup of Tosks one has to look at studies. How many Tosks do you have on your project? 20?



(Albanians = Bessi, Carpi, etc).


Talk to NikolaVuk about it, he knows alot more in this regard. It is a legitimate hypothesis put up by a German historian Gottfried Schramm. That there was a migration of the Thracian Bessi tribe in Early Medieval period towards the Arbanon area.
But even if it is correct, as I've said actually, still Albanians seem to be genetically even likely by absolute majority (50%+) Illyrian. Unlike the Aromanians for example who seem to possess strong Thracian element.
Besides, are you trying to claim that 95 % of Albanians are of Illyrian origin? Albanians have some Slavic admixture, how can they not have Thracian as well? Is any ethnic group "pure"? No, except some very isolated small groups.



I know there you will get a pass because it fits the agenda of your audience. Here, in the meantime, you got schooled and owned!

Really? "The Genomic History Of Southeastern Europe" has been out for how long? 10 months? It's not my top priority, but I got interested in this sample, and it took me few hours to identify it archaeologically and cross-check with other data. What have you been doing for 10 months? No one prevented you or anyone else from looking at footnotes and identifying this sample, and then to proceed from there with theories, as archaeological evidence will narrow down the options.



Both these results suggest they came from the Steppe

They suggest sample had steppe admixture. So it was Indoeuropean/indoeuropeanised. One G2a sample in Tripillia had similar admixture. That itself doesn't suggest G2a came from the Steppe.
Proper identification of the sample suggests where it comes from. Playing with numbers, there are so many variables, this narrows down the options. Archaeology might be crucial to determine where he is from by more distant ancestry.



not too long before 1700 BC.

It is likely his ancestors were there 400 or more years before 1700 BC.




Unless J2b2 migrated from Sardinia all the way to Armenia, and then back to Croatia, your theory does not hold.

Older clades do exist in Sardinia. Even if they arrived around 3000 BC that is still before Indoeuropean presence on Sardinia. Armenian still separated some time ago, he had his own path.


OK let's assume it comes from the Steppe, it still goes to Italy/Sardinia first and then expands towards Balkan. Sardinia has much higher ratio of older clades than Balkans for now. And of course there is archaeological support. Plus first IE's on Sardinia were BB's.

Ownstyler
07-03-18, 05:32
They suggest sample had steppe admixture. So it was Indoeuropean/indoeuropeanised. One G2a sample in Tripillia had similar admixture. That itself doesn't suggest G2a came from the Steppe.

First, it doesn't suggest admixture, it shows it. It suggests, meaning it cannot be observed from it, but it can be hypothesized, that there was a migration from the Steppe. Second, Tripillia is INSIDE the Steppe, of course it would have Steppe admixture. You don't need a migration from the Steppe to explain that!


Older clades do exist in Sardinia. Even if they arrived around 3000 BC that is still before Indoeuropean presence on Sardinia. Armenian still separated some time ago, he had his own path. OK let's assume it comes from the Steppe, it still goes to Italy/Sardinia first and then expands towards Balkan. Sardinia has much higher ratio of older clades than Balkans for now. And of course there is archaeological support. Plus first IE's on Sardinia were BB's.

If you want to see where the J2b2-L283 found in Croatia came from, you need to know its exact clade. Which one did it have? Was it one that today is only found in Sardinia?

LABERIA
07-03-18, 06:09
Talk to NikolaVuk about it, he knows alot more in this regard.
Who is and wat exactly said this NikolaVuk?

It is a legitimate hypothesis put up by a German historian Gottfried Schramm.
Malcolm has explained perfectly that the theory of Schramm is wrong.

That there was a migration of the Thracian Bessi tribe in Early Medieval period towards the Arbanon area.
Any primary source to support this theory of the migration of Bessi in Arbanon area?

Aspurg
07-03-18, 06:23
First, it doesn't suggest admixture, it shows it. It suggests, meaning it cannot be observed from it, but it can be hypothesized, that there was a migration from the Steppe.

Valid point, yet nitpicking.



Second, Tripillia is INSIDE the Steppe, of course it would have Steppe admixture.

If it's so necessary, why other samples have significantly less of it? Because it's a different archaeological complex. Different population/culture.



You don't need a migration from the Steppe to explain that!

But you do need a process of Indo-europeanisation.
Bell Beakers in Europe did not have Steppe admixture already? They did. You don't require migration from the Steppe to have Steppe admixture or Steppe mtdna, just mixing with some other population that has it is sufficient regardless from where it is. And there was plenty of IE population in Europe already.



If you want to see where the J2b2-L283 found in Croatia came from, you need to know its exact clade. Which one did it have? Was it one that today is only found in Sardinia?

As said Y15058*, actually there is one Sardinian who is Y15058*, and of course it descends from older clades.

Also for the old presence in the steppe you need older clades there. You have one larger cluster in Mordvins/Tatars that is too young for that. I've been told other than that, L283 is not widespread in the Steppe/Caucasus. I might want to check precisely though. It is widespread in the Europe, and so were BB's.

LABERIA
07-03-18, 08:02
No he does not.

Why you edited your post?

Ownstyler
07-03-18, 09:08
But you do need a process of Indo-europeanisation.

Why are you mixing culture and language with genetic data? We were discussing the place of origin of the Croatian Bronze Age J2b2-L283. Steppe admixture can be present without Steppe culture, plus I imagine the Steppe had non-indo-european cultures too.


Bell Beakers in Europe did not have Steppe admixture already? They did. You don't require migration from the Steppe to have Steppe admixture or Steppe mtdna, just mixing with some other population that has it is sufficient regardless from where it is. And there was plenty of IE population in Europe already.

This makes sense, but I am not sure it matches the data. These two people in Croatia had about 30% Steppe & 15% Eastern European HG ancestry. Did the population of Sardinia have similar figures?



As said Y15058*, actually there is one Sardinian who is Y15058*, and of course it descends from older clades.

I didn't understand this sentence. Are you just saying that there is a Sardinian with Y15058* or that the Croatian Bronze Age one was Y15058 as well?

Aspurg
07-03-18, 09:39
Who is and wat exactly said this NikolaVuk?

Mod on poreklo. Go read yourself. Can't post any links yet here. (10 posts rule) :) He mentioned archaeologically that there are traces of Bessi tribe in the Shop region, and that for example they had used circular kernos for storing burned remains etc., generally this evidence suggesting they did manage to keep their identity late in Antic period - that is resist Romanisation. Data is from one newer study.
I know Trojet does read that forum. :) Actually there is an Albanian there who I know is very knowledgeable about various Albanian clans. Some Bosniaks are there too.



Malcolm has explained perfectly that the theory of Schramm is wrong.

I haven't read Schramm's book, only small parts of it. I know some of his main points. And I haven't read Malcom's response, what did he say?



Any primary source to support this theory of the migration of Bessi in Arbanon area?

I think he connected it with turbulent events of Byzantine-Bulgarian conflicts, some population movements.

But this is totally off-topic.

Aspurg
07-03-18, 09:58
Why are you mixing culture and language with genetic data? We were discussing the place of origin of the Croatian Bronze Age J2b2-L283. Steppe admixture can be present without Steppe culture, plus I imagine the Steppe had non-indo-european cultures too.

Well usually people do connect it with culture, don't they? It's argued that genetic borders followed cultural borders, but as you say that might not have been always the case.



This makes sense, but I am not sure it matches the data. These two people in Croatia had about 30% Steppe & 15% Eastern European HG ancestry. Did the population of Sardinia have similar figures?

Not sure I've seen Sardinian sample from that time frame but point is here:
Find is from 1600-1700 BC, expansion of Z597 begins 2400 BC. Some of those older clade Sardinians might not have mixed with IE's much (in the case of out-of-sardinia theory). Actually what could be significant is to compare that autosomal data in different calculators and try to figure out something more.



I didn't understand this sentence. Are you just saying that there is a Sardinian with Y15058* or that the Croatian Bronze Age one was Y15058 as well?

Both are Y15058*. Few days ago I think SNP calls showed Croatian sample to be Y15058*. That's how I started to do research on Veliki Vanik find.

Ownstyler
07-03-18, 21:00
Not sure I've seen Sardinian sample from that time frame but point is here:
Find is from 1600-1700 BC, expansion of Z597 begins 2400 BC. Some of those older clade Sardinians might not have mixed with IE's much (in the case of out-of-sardinia theory). Actually what could be significant is to compare that autosomal data in different calculators and try to figure out something more.

Well even today Sardinians have considerably less Steppe DNA than other Europeans. That contradicts the Steppe admixture of the J2b2-L283 and the female next to him. For your theory to be true one of these two scenarios has to have taken place:

1- Pre-bronze age and early bronze age J2b2 Sardinians had heavy Steppe admixture. Somehow this admixture disappeared in later.
2- J2b2 Sardinians migrated to the Balkans and got the Steppe admixture from there.

Now, since most Sardinian DNA is pre-BA option 1 is very, very unlikely.

For option 2 to be true BA Balkans would have to have almost full Steppe DNA. If the supposed mix of western Sardinians and native Balkan people produced two individuals with close to 50% Steppe and North Eastern ancestry, that means the natives would have to be, depending on how long the "sardinians" had been there, from 50% to 100% Steppe and NE ancestry. With so much DNA from those regions, and some more, as you claim, from Sardinia, that leaves a very small space for haplogroups G, E, J1, etc. What does the data show? Haplogroups G, E, J are the majority of finds from that period and shortly before. So, the data we have might have been outliers just by chance. But assuming it isn't, option 2 is also very, very unlikely.

Aspurg
07-03-18, 22:03
Well even today Sardinians have considerably less Steppe DNA than other Europeans. That contradicts the Steppe admixture of the J2b2-L283 and the female next to him. For your theory to be true one of these two scenarios has to have taken place:

1- Pre-bronze age and early bronze age J2b2 Sardinians had heavy Steppe admixture. Somehow this admixture disappeared in later.
2- J2b2 Sardinians migrated to the Balkans and got the Steppe admixture from there.

Now, since most Sardinian DNA is pre-BA option 1 is very, very unlikely.


No, you didn't get my point. If we speak of out of Sardinia scenario, all that it takes is that L283 with Sardinian genetics mix with Bell Beakers who arrive to Sardinia, they mix with BB's, go onto Italian mainland, and only subsequently to Balkans. Forget about Sardinian genetics, L283 mixes with Bell Beakers and after some time they are autosomally dominantly Bell Beakers. As BB's they bring their Steppe admixture to Balkans.

For ex. rafc has made a hypothesis about the culture from which V13 spread out, now you have a find in an identifiable archaeological culture, you should proceed from there about researching about it's whereabouts, instead of wildly speculating. Anyone who doesn't take into account archaeological evidence is disqualified as a serious interlocutor.

I have delivered my main point: identification of this find. The rest is up to you..

LABERIA
07-03-18, 22:24
Mod on poreklo. Go read yourself. Can't post any links yet here. (10 posts rule) :) He mentioned archaeologically that there are traces of Bessi tribe in the Shop region, and that for example they had used circular kernos for storing burned remains etc., generally this evidence suggesting they did manage to keep their identity late in Antic period - that is resist Romanisation. Data is from one newer study.
I know Trojet does read that forum. :) Actually there is an Albanian there who I know is very knowledgeable about various Albanian clans. Some Bosniaks are there too.



I haven't read Schramm's book, only small parts of it. I know some of his main points. And I haven't read Malcom's response, what did he say?



I think he connected it with turbulent events of Byzantine-Bulgarian conflicts, some population movements.

But this is totally off-topic.
So, you don`t know nothing about this legitimate hypothesis. You have never read Schramm let alone Malcolm. How is it possible that you come here and want to talk about these things?

Ownstyler
08-03-18, 00:30
No, you didn't get my point. If we speak of out of Sardinia scenario, all that it takes is that L283 with Sardinian genetics mix with Bell Beakers who arrive to Sardinia, they mix with BB's, go onto Italian mainland, and only subsequently to Balkans. Forget about Sardinian genetics, L283 mixes with Bell Beakers and after some time they are autosomally dominantly Bell Beakers. As BB's they bring their Steppe admixture to Balkans.

Do we know how much Steppe ancestry the Italian mainland had at this time?

And since you're claiming an expansion out of Sardinia and want to consider archaeology, which archaeologically verified cultural expansion are you associating this with?

Trojet
08-03-18, 07:31
No, you didn't get my point. If we speak of out of Sardinia scenario, all that it takes is that L283 with Sardinian genetics mix with Bell Beakers who arrive to Sardinia, they mix with BB's, go onto Italian mainland, and only subsequently to Balkans. Forget about Sardinian genetics, L283 mixes with Bell Beakers and after some time they are autosomally dominantly Bell Beakers. As BB's they bring their Steppe admixture to Balkans.

I hope you realize that for your theory to work, many things have to break your way. That is: L283 makes a sudden expansion from Caucuses to Sardinia during Early Bronze Age by bypassing Balkans, somehow gets Indo-Europeanised in Sardinia, turns back east to mainland Italy, then on to the Balkans, all within a 2000 year period. But it couldn't itself have been involved in a westward Bronze Age I-E expansion?! Oh, and also the LBA Armenian L283 all of a sudden gets Indo-Europeanised as well.


Anyone who doesn't take into account archaeological evidence is disqualified as a serious interlocutor.I have delivered my main point: identification of this find. The rest is up to you..

Firstly, you disqualified yourself when you ignored or "forgot" the LBA Armenian. Ancient DNA is always crucial in understanding haplogroup origins/expansions. Secondly, as I pointed here (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34165-J2b2-L283-(proto-illyrian)/page6?p=534326&viewfull=1#post534326), you also disqualified yourself from this thread when you couldn't even understand simple phylogeny, as I specifically told you the LBA Armenian was J-L283* meaning a fully developed one, as in sharing the ~6000 ybp TMRCA. I didn't want to get into specifics as far as the J-Z600 subclade goes since he doesn't exactly belong there (he splits it), because I figured all that may not be very easy for you to decipher ;)


I know Trojet does read that forum. :)

Yes, I read that Serbian forum, specifically "Albanians and Arberesh" thread, whenever I need a good laugh :laughing:

Balkanite
08-03-18, 10:20
The theory about J2b2-L283 coming from Sardinia to be indo-europeanised by Bell-Beakers in Italy is unlikely.

The J2b2-L283 in sardinians can be explained by their contact with the Villanova culture of northerneastern Italy. They probably got their J2b2-L283 from the villanovans.

How did the villanovans get their J2b2-L283?
One of the main components which would later form the villanovan culture, came from the Urnfield culture of central europe. So a more likely scenario would be J2b2-L283 penetrating northerneastern Italy from the Urnfield culture at an early stage(bringing early clades). Those Urnfield J2b2-L283 would then be assimilated by the Nuragic-like peoples of northerneastern Italy, to form the non-indo-european Villanova culture(which is regarded early etruscan by practically all scholars).

While some of the Urnfield J2b2-L283 went to northern Italy and were assimilated into non-IE societies there, other J2b2-L283 just went to the balkans instead, and contributed to early balkan IE languages there.
When we look at the archaeological record, we actually also see the urnfield culture complex extend its arms down both to northern Italy, and to the northern balkans.

The problem with this culture is that they burn their dead bodies, and put them in jars. They dont bury them. So if this was a J2b2-L283-rich culture, we will probably not know until we invent some sci-fi stuff which makes us capable of DNA testing ashes. Testing the tumulus culture on the other hand is possible.

Also the urnfield culture followed the tumulus culture. Both of these cultures have been proposed to have contributed to the Illyrian ethnogenesis. So if we fint J2b2-L283 in bronze age croatia, and then also in the earlier tumulus culture, then we can almost be certain that the intermediate urnfielders also had J2b2-L283. That is because proto-illyrians and urnfield culture both had a huge tumulus culture element.

So judging by this, a more likely scenario would be that the tumulus culture donated a lot of the J2b2-L283 to the succeeding Urnfield culture in central europe, while some tumulus J2b2-L283 went straight to the balkans before the central european tumuli builders turned into urnfielders.
Then when a lot of Urnfield people later moved to northern italy, they would bring with them a lot of basal L283 clades they had gotten from the big number of immigrants from central europe. The J2b2-L283 did not do very well in northern Italy. They were assimilated quickly into the non-IE villanova culture, and judging from ancient dna and modern dna, they never multiplied their numbers very much. But they still have their diversity, due to their huge numbers before their assimilation in the bronze age.

The J2b2-L283 which went to the northern balkans with an earlier wave(tumuli builders), are another matter. They were a lot more successful in multiplying their numbers. And they stayed ie speaking. The growth of L283 in the northern balkans compared to the growth of L283 other places is almost like an explosion. One of these early explosions could also have diluted some of the earlier and more basal clades of J2b2-L283 in the balkans, leaving us with more diversity in the regions where J2b2'L283 didnt multiply as much (northern Italy, sardinia etc.).

Finally, of course it is hard to know exactly how the haplogroups moved around. Many material cultures moved around and overlapped a lot in what would later be illyrian lands, during those centuries.
And nearly all central and eastern european bronze age cultures have been proposed as ancestors to the illyrians by scholars through time.
So without sufficient ancient DNA, it is hard to know exactly which ones, and how many, of those cultures contributed the various haplogroups at which times to the northwestern balkans.
But right now it indeed seems that L283 came to northwestern balkans either from some people on the steppe or at least from some people more east/northeast.

Leka
09-03-18, 17:59
Mod on poreklo. Go read yourself. Can't post any links yet here. (10 posts rule) :) He mentioned archaeologically that there are traces of Bessi tribe in the Shop region, and that for example they had used circular kernos for storing burned remains etc., generally this evidence suggesting they did manage to keep their identity late in Antic period - that is resist Romanisation. Data is from one newer study.
I know Trojet does read that forum. :) Actually there is an Albanian there who I know is very knowledgeable about various Albanian clans. Some Bosniaks are there too.
There are no Albanians at Poreklo, guy you speaking of is Serb pretending to be Albanian. Plus his ‘knowledge’ about our clans is entirely based on Serbian ethnographers (Urosevic, Bajraktarevic, Vukanovic, Jovicevic etc).

Guy was using one of our project members results along with his name and pretended they were his. Miserable mofo

Dema
17-03-18, 03:33
There are no Albanians at Poreklo, guy you speaking of is Serb pretending to be Albanian. Plus his ‘knowledge’ about our clans is entirely based on Serbian ethnographers (Urosevic, Bajraktarevic, Vukanovic, Jovicevic etc).

Guy was using one of our project members results along with his name and pretended they were his. Miserable mofo

Creepy guy Rugovac, pretending to be Albanian... Cant believe he classified me on foleja :D

Wanderer
01-07-18, 05:04
It looks that way. Most basal and early clades of J-L283 look sardinian.
Its likely a terrible event happened for J-L283 lineages that maybe caused them to migrate and seek refuge on to sardinia. Since its isolated in the medd sea. J-L283 lineages arent sporadic. They are very rare. But balkan J-L283 lineages are rather younger lineages. You dont see any older clads there. But its likely made way to northern italy and than back into the balkans. Basal J-L283 in people like british and russian are likely just rare offshoots that by chance migrated so far off. Could be for various reasons. Could be because they eventually got obsorbed by rome. And thats where they just ended up.

Johane Derite
01-07-18, 10:27
It looks that way. Most basal and early clades of J-L283 look sardinian.
Its likely a terrible event happened for J-L283 lineages that maybe caused them to migrate and seek refuge on to sardinia. Since its isolated in the medd sea. J-L283 lineages arent sporadic. They are very rare. But balkan J-L283 lineages are rather younger lineages. You dont see any older clads there. But its likely made way to northern italy and than back into the balkans. Basal J-L283 in people like british and russian are likely just rare offshoots that by chance migrated so far off. Could be for various reasons. Could be because they eventually got obsorbed by rome. And thats where they just ended up.
Can you explain how the ancient armenian L283 sample fits in with this sardinian hypothesis

Wanderer
06-07-18, 19:50
Can you explain how the ancient armenian L283 sample fits in with this sardinian hypothesis

I have a question. Are the sardinian samples from Francalacci et al (2013/2015, ancient samples or modern modern sardinians?

Wanderer
14-07-18, 01:07
Can you explain how the ancient armenian L283 sample fits in with this sardinian hypothesisIts basal J-L283.

Trojet
23-08-18, 20:03
Its basal J-L283.

Exactly! And since this LBA Armenian aDNA was positive for 7 out of 7 called J-L283 equivalent SNPs, he also shared the ~5300 ybp TMRCA. Which means J-L283 was likely nowhere near Sardinia when it expanded, but much farther east. Otherwise, you'd have to explain to me how J-L283 made it to Sardinia prior to this timeframe, and then how a rare and basal J-L283 back-migrated from Sardinia to Armenia/Caucusus in the Bronze Age.

Piro Ilir
17-10-18, 00:59
Or perhaps you can't read. This is what I wrote on the J2 page:

As a result, both the Illyrians and the Mycenaeans (and possibly the Albanians) would be descended from Middle to Late Bronze Age Steppe migrants to the Southeast Europe, in a migration that was particularly rich in J2b lineages from the Middle Volga region.

The Albanian (and Kosovar) population is one of the most homogeneous in Europe in term of shared recent ancestry according to Ralph & Coop 2013 (http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555). This means that the Albanians expanded from a very small population relatively recently, which explains why strong founder effects completely reshaped the Y-DNA frequencies. That is how E-V13 and J2b became to dominant among Albanians and Kosovars. That expansion probably took place during the Middle Ages, so based on the current data it is impossible to know whether E-V13 and J2b entered the Albanian gene pool during the Bronze Age, the Iron Age, the Classical Antiquity, or even the Middle Ages. Hence my reserve on the subject.

It doesn't matter Maciamo. Albanians are used to it. Not a problem anymore. It's getting normal

Piro Ilir
17-10-18, 01:09
It obviously implies that Albanians descend from the Ancient populations carrying these haplotypes no matter how "recently" they descend. R1b-L23, EV13 & J2b2 with a minority of I1 is the overwhelming majority of the Gheg Albanian haplotypes, especially the ones from the Northern Highlands.

L-23(Z2103) being more precise. It is the overwhelmingly R1b subglade.

Piro Ilir
17-10-18, 01:55
I dont understand how these posts are off topic? We are discussing if a lot of slavs are slavisized albanians?
Whether or not that is true has a huge impact on how we should interpret all that J2b2-L283 among non-albanian balkanites.
And how we interpret that has a huge impact on the arguments one can use to support the claim that J2b2-L283 is indeed Illyrian.
So as far as i see, nothing off topic here.
Definitely it's Illyrian. You know it , I know it , and certainly they know it as well...
Look at the maps of J2b2, Z2103 and the Ev13. All maps pinpoint to the same region north of Caspian sea. The most plausible region of the original homeland of proto-Illyrians.

(There is a,reason why I always say that Albanians should be pro American)

Piro Ilir
17-10-18, 18:45
There is also another possibility i forgot.
That an balkanite-dominated legion of the roman army, stood guard there to prevent gauls from entering italy.
Some of them eventually settled and created several founder effects among the villages in the area.

A Roman legion is plausible. Anyway, the rise of Illyrian soldiery had begun much later than Gauls were a threat against Rome. Illyrians became part of Roman soldiery only at the second century ad and onward.

Sile
17-10-18, 19:37
A Roman legion is plausible. Anyway, the rise of Illyrian soldiery had begun much later than Gauls were a threat against Rome. Illyrians became part of Roman soldiery only at the second century ad and onward.
do you have any link to this statement
.
After the Great Illyrian revolt ............Rome dispersed of 150000 illyrian to other places in the empire.
.
The Great Illyrian Revolt
Rome's Forgotten War in the Balkans, AD 6–9
Jason R Abdale
.
the war was only fought in Dalmatia and Pannonia
https://i.postimg.cc/fbGgW988/illyrian-revolt.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
.
the alps where only conquered 15 years earlier by Augustus

Wanderer
23-10-18, 07:21
Exactly! And since this LBA Armenian aDNA was positive for 7 out of 7 called J-L283 equivalent SNPs, he also shared the ~5300 ybp TMRCA. Which means J-L283 was likely nowhere near Sardinia when it expanded, but much farther east. Otherwise, you'd have to explain to me how J-L283 made it to Sardinia prior to this timeframe, and then how a rare and basal J-L283 back-migrated from Sardinia to Armenia/Caucusus in the Bronze Age.

The armenian J-L283 is not as basal as sardinian J-Yp29 clade in cagliari sardinia

Visit Yfull website
/tree/j-l283/

And most of the other surrounding closer clades are sardinians. The turkish is likely a greek derived one since the user last name is greek. The basal J-z585 is tuscan while its subclades in the J-yp113 clade are all sardinian as well.

At some point about 3300bc - 2700bc. One J2b2 ancestor became J-L283 and not much longer after many of his descendants were genocided and the survivors driven out its homeland in anatolia or somewhere else in west asia. Edit which is why the other J2b2 branches are overhwlemingly west asian. Theres no fair presence of a soley west asian variant of J-L283 in europe. I don't even think it may exists with exception of migration within the last 600 years ( exception of turkish derived ones because they kidnapped balkanites). European J-L283 Migrated by sea to sardinia most likely. But at some point a branch of J-z600 became Z585 which is where the majority of other european J-L283 come from weirdly. Since theres such a lack of other offshoots for other clades before J-z585. Except in sardinia, where theres a actually a few in just one area of an island. J-z585 may even have been present already in anatolia at the time of the migration but the ones left over were genocided. The rare armenian J-z600 likely migrated back at some point later. Because they are J -L283 in armenian ftdna project group, but none have been further tested. And its unlikely they are basal offshoots. Just like we have rare basal offshoot in england in J-Yp29 branch. Which we know is originally is sardinian at some point before though because of a sardinian J-yp29 sample from a study.
Also I dont see any J-L283 in the georgian Ftdna project which is telling us a hint but I cannot quite put my finger on it. May hint that armenians are not actually have always been from armenia but migrated there at a point after georgians. At least for J-L283 lineage of armenians

I believe there is basal J-L283 in corsica that isnt tested because sardinian nuraghe culture appears similar to torreanean culture of corsica and I believe they are actually maybe even the same people. And Sardinia and Corsica are very very close to each other. From northern sardinia to southern corsica. Even today it is not far off. And back than its possible the sea level was lower actually.


Id like to see J-L283 tested for the aegean islands more with it catagorized for each island. Because the basal turkish greek Ydna maybe from aegean around that time. Its ancestor came from sardinia maybe trying to go back at a point. Unless it was co incidence that it ended up there. We have a lebense J-L283 as well

The lebenese samples in the Ftdna project group are not west asian varients but european varients bought over at some point further later but I dont know why or have clues as to why. But Macadonia did invade all the way up to india.

Wanderer
23-10-18, 16:22
List of prehistoric cultures of sardinia

Archaeological cultureYears before Chris
t
1. Cardium Pottery or Filiestru culture6000-4000

2.Bonu Ighinu culture4000−3400
3.San Ciriaco culture3400−3200
4.Ozieri culture3200−2700

5.Abealzu-Filigosa culture2700-2400
6.Monte Claro culture2400−2100
7.Bell Beaker culture2100−1800
8.Bonnanaro culture (A phase)

Culures 1 -4 are the most likely possibility of original J-L283 into sardinia.

Trojet
23-10-18, 20:36
The armenian J-L283 is not as basal as sardinian J-Yp29 clade in cagliari sardinia
Visit Yfull website
/tree/j-l283/
And most of the other surrounding closer clades are sardinians. The turkish is likely a greek derived one since the user last name is greek. The basal J-z585 is tuscan while its subclades in the J-yp113 clade are all sardinian as well.
At some point about 3300bc - 2700bc. One J2b2 ancestor became J-L283 and not much longer after many of his descendants were genocided and the survivors driven out its homeland in anatolia or somewhere else in west asia. Edit which is why the other J2b2 branches are overhwlemingly west asian. Theres no fair presence of a soley west asian variant of J-L283 in europe. I don't even think it may exists with exception of migration within the last 600 years ( exception of turkish derived ones because they kidnapped balkanites). European J-L283 Migrated by sea to sardinia most likely. But at some point a branch of J-z600 became Z585 which is where the majority of other european J-L283 come from weirdly. Since theres such a lack of other offshoots for other clades before J-z585. Except in sardinia, where theres a actually a few in just one area of an island. J-z585 may even have been present already in anatolia at the time of the migration but the ones left over were genocided. The rare armenian J-z600 likely migrated back at some point later. Because they are J -L283 in armenian ftdna project group, but none have been further tested. And its unlikely they are basal offshoots. Just like we have rare basal offshoot in england in J-Yp29 branch. Which we know is originally is sardinian at some point before though because of a sardinian J-yp29 sample from a study.
Also I dont see any J-L283 in the georgian Ftdna project which is telling us a hint but I cannot quite put my finger on it. May hint that armenians are not actually have always been from armenia but migrated there at a point after georgians. At least for J-L283 lineage of armenians
I believe there is basal J-L283 in corsica that isnt tested because sardinian nuraghe culture appears similar to torreanean culture of corsica and I believe they are actually maybe even the same people. And Sardinia and Corsica are very very close to each other. From northern sardinia to southern corsica. Even today it is not far off. And back than its possible the sea level was lower actually.
Id like to see J-L283 tested for the aegean islands more with it catagorized for each island. Because the basal turkish greek Ydna maybe from aegean around that time. Its ancestor came from sardinia maybe trying to go back at a point. Unless it was co incidence that it ended up there. We have a lebense J-L283 as well
The lebenese samples in the Ftdna project group are not west asian varients but european varients bought over at some point further later but I dont know why or have clues as to why. But Macadonia did invade all the way up to india.

What do you mean "he wasn't basal". RISE408 LBA Armenia was never proven positive for any L283 downstreams. Again, as stated in my initial post, he was positive for 7 out of 7 called J-L283 equivalents, one of which is Z590, and negative for Z627. So he wasn't even in the J-Z600 subclade. That assumption was based on the Z590 SNP which we now know is at the same level as L283. If you want to see for yourself, go here and search for RISE408: https://j2-m172.info/links/scientific-papers/

It seems you're having trouble understanding simple phylogeny and are suggesting that these modern Sardinian samples represent some ancient ones who have been proven to be there since ~5000 ybp. Ancient DNA trumps modern distribution. Furthermore, Sardinia is an isolated Mediterranean island which is also heavily overrepresented at YFull due to the 1200 Y sequences from the Francalacci study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5500864/). And finally, there is many other "rare and basal" L283 besides Sardinia, including two confirmed L283+ and Z585- Balkan samples. But some will only look at the YFull tree, which obviously doesn't tell the whole picture.

Wanderer
24-10-18, 03:58
What do you mean "he wasn't basal". RISE408 LBA Armenia was never proven positive for any L283 downstreams. Again, as stated in my initial post, he was positive for 7 out of 7 called J-L283 equivalents, one of which is Z590, and negative for Z627. So he wasn't even in the J-Z600 subclade. That assumption was based on the Z590 SNP which we now know is at the same level as L283. If you want to see for yourself, go here and search for RISE408: https://j2-m172.info/links/scientific-papers/

It seems you're having trouble understanding simple phylogeny and are suggesting that these modern Sardinian samples represent some ancient ones who have been proven to be there since ~5000 ybp. Ancient DNA trumps modern distribution. Furthermore, Sardinia is an isolated Mediterranean island which is also heavily overrepresented at YFull due to the 1200 Y sequences from the Francalacci study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5500864/). And finally, there is many other "rare and basal" L283 besides Sardinia, including two confirmed L283+ and Z585- Balkan samples. But some will only look at the YFull tree, which obviously doesn't tell the whole picture.

No you are right about Z590.
I didnt know about the balkan -Z585 samples. I thought Z590 was down stream of JYP29. But I guess not.

Wanderer
24-10-18, 04:08
I am reading population genomics of bronze age eurasia but I did a keyword search and it doesn't bring up haplogroup or J-L283. It just showing alot of autosomal comparisons.

The graph of the haplogroups in this study appears only to go up to J2b. I don't want to pay to look at it so I am looking through research gate. Where is the study that talks about rise 408 armenia's haplogroup at J-L283? Or did someone get access to it and not publish a study yet?

Wanderer
24-10-18, 04:13
Where is the 2 balkan basal J-L283 samples? I'd like read about a study if it has one for it. Or look at where its uploaded. Because its not on the FTDNA project. And I have never seen it there.

If you do have those rare balkan J-L283 samples.
The problem with the armenian DNA sample is that its not even 3000-2500BC years old. Its ancient, yea but the estimated time of occurance for mutation is still much older than what the actual sample . And is dated 1109BC. We only know that J-L283 had presence in armenia 1109BC. But we have a clade much more downstream in the balkans in croatia at 1600BC. And theres no other basal clades around armenia. But if the armenia project manages to find other basal clades id be convinced that the first J-L283 certainly did start around armenia.
But the balkans is more likely than armenia in my opinion.

We at least have a handful of basal samples in sardinia.

I have not seen the basal balkan samples though.

Georgians dont appear to have J-L283 on their project which is weird

Wanderer
24-10-18, 20:29
From wiki
States that herodotus states that armenians were phyrgians

Phrygians came from the balkans

Phyrgians were

The Armenian Highland is the area surrounding Mount Ararat, the highest peak of the region.
A controversial hypothesis put forward by some scholars, such as T. Gamkrelidze and V. Ivanov, has proposed that the Indo-European homeland was around the Armenian Highland.[36]
The modern Armenian language is often grouped with Greek and Ancient Macedonian("Helleno-Macedonian") in the Pontic Indo-European (also called Helleno-Armenian)subgroup of Indo-European languages by Eric P. Hamp in his 2012 Indo-European family tree, groups .[37] There are two possible explanations, not mutually exclusive, for a common origin of the Armenian and Greek languages.

Ancient Greek scholars, such as Herodotus(writing circa 440 BC), suggest that the Phrygians of western Anatolia, who spoke an Indo-European language, had also made a contribution to the ethnogenesis of the Armenians: "the Armenians were equipped like Phrygians, being Phrygian colonists" (7.73) (Ἀρμένιοι δὲ κατά περ Φρύγες ἐσεσάχατο, ἐόντες Φρυγῶν ἄποικοι.). This appears to imply that some Phrygians migrated eastward to Armenia following the destruction of Phrygia by a Cimmerianinvasion in the late 7th century BC. Greek scholars also believed that the Phrygians had originated in the Balkans, in an area adjoining Macedonia, from where they had emigrated to Anatolia many centuries earlier.

In Hamp's view the homeland of the proposed Greco-Armenian subgroup is the northeast coast of the Black Sea and its hinterlands.[37] He assumes that they migrated from there southeast through the Caucasus with the Armenians remaining after Batumi while the pre-Greeks proceeded westwards along the southern coast of the Black Sea.[37]

Some genetics studies explain Armenian diversity by several mixtures of Eurasian populations that occurred between ~3,000 and ~2,000 BC. But genetic signals of population mixture cease after ~1,200 BC when Bronze Age civilizations in the Eastern Mediterranean world suddenly and violently collapsed. Armenians have since remained isolated and genetic structure within the population developed ~500 years ago when Armenia was divided between the Ottomans and the Safavid Empire in Iran.[38][39]
In the Bronze Age, several states flourished in the area of Greater Armenia, including the Hittite Empire (at the height of its power), Mitanni (South-Western historical Armenia), and Hayasa-Azzi (1600–1200 BC). Soon after Hayasa-Azzi came Arme-Shupria (1300s–1190 BC), the Nairi (1400–1000 BC) and the Kingdom of Urartu (860–590 BC), who successively established their sovereignty over the Armenian Highland. Each of the aforementioned nations and tribes participated in the ethnogenesis of the Armenian people.[40] Under Ashurbanipal(669–627 BC), the Assyrian empire reached the Caucasus Mountains (modern Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan).[41]

Dema
28-10-18, 16:28
Where is the 2 balkan basal J-L283 samples? I'd like read about a study if it has one for it. Or look at where its uploaded. Because its not on the FTDNA project. And I have never seen it there.

If you do have those rare balkan J-L283 samples.
The problem with the armenian DNA sample is that its not even 3000-2500BC years old. Its ancient, yea but the estimated time of occurance for mutation is still much older than what the actual sample . And is dated 1109BC. We only know that J-L283 had presence in armenia 1109BC. But we have a clade much more downstream in the balkans in croatia at 1600BC. And theres no other basal clades around armenia. But if the armenia project manages to find other basal clades id be convinced that the first J-L283 certainly did start around armenia.
But the balkans is more likely than armenia in my opinion.

We at least have a handful of basal samples in sardinia.

I have not seen the basal balkan samples though.

Georgians dont appear to have J-L283 on their project which is weird


You seem not to understand, both Armenia and Balkan ancient samples are most likely from Bronze Age Indo-European expansions. As TMRCA and distribution also suggest, J2-L283 spread with Bronze Age Indo-Europeans into Europe.
Sardinian sample with earlier separation means nothing. He is just survived off-shot that managed to survive bottleneck most likely due to isolation that Sardinia provides.
We have cases like that in other branches too, they on their own dont prove anything.

Read this:


Along with I4331, there was an adult female in the same burial mound. Their genomes possess considerable amount of Steppe admixture and have mtDNA that has been found in the Steppe area. Combined with the fact that to date we have no J2b2a-L283 from Neolithic Europe, as well as other data, a Bronze Age (Indo-European) expansion is likely.


https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-analysis-of-i4331-j2b2a-l283-bronze-age-croatia-mathieson-et-al-2018/


So considering TMRCA, distribution and ancient DNA analysis, it was for sure present at Illyrians, Greeks, and Italic tribes as they are also of Indo-European origin as their language suggests.
Colonization of Sardinia for sure occurred after the arriving on previously mentioned territories.

Wanderer
04-11-18, 17:37
You seem not to understand, both Armenia and Balkan ancient samples are most likely from Bronze Age Indo-European expansions. As TMRCA and distribution also suggest, J2-L283 spread with Bronze Age Indo-Europeans into Europe.
Sardinian sample with earlier separation means nothing. He is just survived off-shot that managed to survive bottleneck most likely due to isolation that Sardinia provides.
We have cases like that in other branches too, they on their own dont prove anything.

Read this:




https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-analysis-of-i4331-j2b2a-l283-bronze-age-croatia-mathieson-et-al-2018/


So considering TMRCA, distribution and ancient DNA analysis, it was for sure present at Illyrians, Greeks, and Italic tribes as they are also of Indo-European origin as their language suggests.
Colonization of Sardinia for sure occurred after the arriving on previously mentioned territories.

Do we really know how ancient sardinians spoke?

Isnt their language largely inluenced from rome and italy from recent times?

Is there mtdna from sardinian matching with steppe samples?

Wanderer
04-11-18, 18:25
Do we really know how ancient sardinians spoke?

Isnt their language largely inluenced from rome and italy from recent times?

Is there mtdna from sardinian matching with steppe samples?

we also dont even see basal J-L283 in greek islands. And the greeks on those islands thousands of years ago pushed off the original inhabitants out of the agean. But the cyclades was trading with sardinia before mainland greeks came and pushed out the original inhabitants

Gash
12-12-18, 15:18
Obviously, but I can't say that J2b came straight from the Steppe to Albania in the Bronze Age. We just don't know. The J2b2 sample from Croatia at least is evidence of a recent migration from the Steppe.


It isn't fresh off the Steppes nor is there any evidence for it. The Ilyrians migrated from Central Europe , Hallstatt, it would be impossible for this sample being Ilyrian to be fresh off the steppe. Nor is there any evidence for it.

What we know is that it was found at a Bronze Age site which makes it likely a proto Ilyrian or from a Indo European colonisation of the Western Balkans, but not fresh off the Steppes. It most likely came fresh from central Europe rather where it absorbed some Neolithic possibly. Then migrating into the Balkans.

This is the most plausible theory IMO.

It also leaves open the possibility that J2b2 could be Neolithic or Mesolithic (less likely) but absorbed into a Indo European lineage eventually.

Sile
12-12-18, 19:14
do you have any link to this statement
.
After the Great Illyrian revolt ............Rome dispersed of 150000 illyrian to other places in the empire.
.
The Great Illyrian Revolt
Rome's Forgotten War in the Balkans, AD 6–9
Jason R Abdale
.
the war was only fought in Dalmatia and Pannonia
https://i.postimg.cc/fbGgW988/illyrian-revolt.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
.
the alps where only conquered 15 years earlier by Augustus
the bulk of illyrian populace comes via the dalmatians and pannonians as per below
.
https://i.postimg.cc/Nj15bRM6/number-illyrians.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
.
the ardiaei are the most southern of these tribes living in modern coastal Montenegro
.
as per Roman "census" records a decuria was
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decury

Trojet
12-12-18, 20:08
the bulk of illyrian populace comes via the dalmatians and pannonians as per below
.
https://i.postimg.cc/Nj15bRM6/number-illyrians.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
.
the ardiaei are the most southern of these tribes living in modern coastal Montenegro
.
as per Roman "census" records a decuria was
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decury

The Illyrians were recorded farther south than that, and not just Pannonia, Dalmatia, Montenegro. The above graph shows the Illyrian uprising against Rome and not all the territories they inhabited, which you seem to suggest.

Anyways, I'm not sure what your point is here, as this J-L283 was found in Dalmatia, which you consider as the "heartland" of the Illyrians :)

Sile
12-12-18, 20:50
It isn't fresh off the Steppes nor is there any evidence for it. The Ilyrians migrated from Central Europe , Hallstatt, it would be impossible for this sample being Ilyrian to be fresh off the steppe. Nor is there any evidence for it.

What we know is that it was found at a Bronze Age site which makes it likely a proto Ilyrian or from a Indo European colonisation of the Western Balkans, but not fresh off the Steppes. It most likely came fresh from central Europe rather where it absorbed some Neolithic possibly. Then migrating into the Balkans.

This is the most plausible theory IMO.

It also leaves open the possibility that J2b2 could be Neolithic or Mesolithic (less likely) but absorbed into a Indo European lineage eventually.

Illyrians came from the steppe and settled in the eastern alps area ( central europe ) circa 1600BC .....they where neighbours of the celts who where north of them in modern south and central germany

Gash
13-12-18, 01:51
I already know that and that is technically what I said but what's for sure is that they aren't fresh off the steppes. The Ilyrians didn't migrate directly from the steppes and into the Balkans. They settled in Central Europe before going down to Italy and the Western Balkans.

As for Ilyrians living only as south as Montenegro, that is not true. They lived all the way down to Greece. The Epirotes and Macedonians and the Thracians were probably related people. Ancient Macedonia was described as inhabited by the Thracians and Ilyrians






The first people that history recognises in this region are the Illyrians, a large and mighty nation living on the Adriatic Sea, from the Po to the Ambracian Gulf, and northwards to the Danube. Strabo believes that this people spread westwards to Lake Constance, through Noricum and Vindelicia. He also asserts that the Pannonians stemmed from this people. Appian notes clearly that the Pannonians were Illyrians. The Istrians, Japodes, Dalmatae, Liburnians, Dardanians, Ardiaei, Autariates, in short, all the peoples down to the Ceraunian mountains are generally regarded as Illyrians. But they also inhabited wide reaches of Macedonia, Epirus and Thessaly.
Only a small portion of Macedonia was inhabited by the Greeks. The mass of the population was Illyrian and Thracian. The Dassaretae, the Lyncestae, the Bryges or Phrygians, the Pelagones, The Eordi, the Elimiotes, the Atintanes, the inhabitants of the region around Candavia, Pella, Edessa and Verva have all been expressly referred to as Illyrian. To a great extent, it was almost only the towns on the coast that had Greek inhabitants. The Macedonians had a language of their own that was also spoken in the regions along the Ionian Sea across from Corfu and, thus in Greek Illyria and Epirus.
There were also many non-Greek peoples in Epirus who, as noted above, spoke the Macedonian language, or the Illyrian language, which was probably the same thing.But the Greek colonies here and the dynasty of Aeacides introduced the Greek language such that the various peoples spoke two languages. The Amphilochans further to the south also belonged to this group, and for this reason are also referred to as barbarians by Thucydides. In Thessaly there were also other peoples of foreign origin, such as the Perrhaedans, referred to by Appian as Illyrians, the Athamanes, the Aethices, the Tymphaei and the Penestae, the Helots of the Thessalians, who had probably been the same people as the Illyrian Penestae. Scylax notes that only beyond Ambracia, the Peneus and the town or mountain of Homotion in Magnesia, had the Greeks begun to inhabit the region in a compact manner. In Strabo’s time, the barbarians owned large parts of Greece, and he reports that the Thracians inhabited Macedonia and parts of Thessaly at that time.






Source:
from: Johann Thunmann, Über die Geschichte und Sprache der Albaner und der Wlachen (Leipzig 1774). Translated from the German by Robert Elsie.

Sile
13-12-18, 02:42
I already know that and that is technically what I said but what's for sure is that they aren't fresh off the steppes. The Ilyrians didn't migrate directly from the steppes and into the Balkans. They settled in Central Europe before going down to Italy and the Western Balkans.

As for Ilyrians living only as south as Montenegro, that is not true. They lived all the way down to Greece. The Epirotes and Macedonians and the Thracians were probably related people. Ancient Macedonia was described as inhabited by the Thracians and Ilyrians






The first people that history recognises in this region are the Illyrians, a large and mighty nation living on the Adriatic Sea, from the Po to the Ambracian Gulf, and northwards to the Danube. Strabo believes that this people spread westwards to Lake Constance, through Noricum and Vindelicia. He also asserts that the Pannonians stemmed from this people. Appian notes clearly that the Pannonians were Illyrians. The Istrians, Japodes, Dalmatae, Liburnians, Dardanians, Ardiaei, Autariates, in short, all the peoples down to the Ceraunian mountains are generally regarded as Illyrians. But they also inhabited wide reaches of Macedonia, Epirus and Thessaly.
Only a small portion of Macedonia was inhabited by the Greeks. The mass of the population was Illyrian and Thracian. The Dassaretae, the Lyncestae, the Bryges or Phrygians, the Pelagones, The Eordi, the Elimiotes, the Atintanes, the inhabitants of the region around Candavia, Pella, Edessa and Verva have all been expressly referred to as Illyrian. To a great extent, it was almost only the towns on the coast that had Greek inhabitants. The Macedonians had a language of their own that was also spoken in the regions along the Ionian Sea across from Corfu and, thus in Greek Illyria and Epirus.
There were also many non-Greek peoples in Epirus who, as noted above, spoke the Macedonian language, or the Illyrian language, which was probably the same thing.But the Greek colonies here and the dynasty of Aeacides introduced the Greek language such that the various peoples spoke two languages. The Amphilochans further to the south also belonged to this group, and for this reason are also referred to as barbarians by Thucydides. In Thessaly there were also other peoples of foreign origin, such as the Perrhaedans, referred to by Appian as Illyrians, the Athamanes, the Aethices, the Tymphaei and the Penestae, the Helots of the Thessalians, who had probably been the same people as the Illyrian Penestae. Scylax notes that only beyond Ambracia, the Peneus and the town or mountain of Homotion in Magnesia, had the Greeks begun to inhabit the region in a compact manner. In Strabo’s time, the barbarians owned large parts of Greece, and he reports that the Thracians inhabited Macedonia and parts of Thessaly at that time.






Source:
from: Johann Thunmann, Über die Geschichte und Sprache der Albaner und der Wlachen (Leipzig 1774). Translated from the German by Robert Elsie.

Ambracia and the ambracia gulf are opposite the island of Corfu .............this indicates that the 14 epirote tribes are also noted as Illyrian

.
Corfu was the furthest south that the liburnians ruled until about 750BC when the corinthinas Greeks took it , plus created towns all along the coast from south Montenegro through albania and into NW Greece
.
I do not know if Epirotes are Illyrian or Greek or even a branch of Macedonians

Johane Derite
13-12-18, 14:36
.
I do not know if Epirotes are Illyrian or Greek or even a branch of Macedonians


Below are the names of just some Illyrian tribes and some Epirote tribes that are very similar if not identical:

Illyrian: 'Atintani'
Epirote: 'Atintanes'


Illyrian: "Amantini" (in Pannonia)
Epirote: "Amantes"


Illyrian: "Autariatae"
Epirote: "Autariatae"


Illyrian: "Dassaretii" (Dalmatian coast)
"Dassaretae" between Macedonia and Epirus




Archeologists like Neritan Ceka claim that Epirote tribes were Hellenised Illyrians and the similarity in tribe names is one of their arguments.

Its surprising the lack of basic work that has been done here. Even NGL Hammond, who explicitly wrote a paper about the similarities of Epirote and Illyrian names, did not include any basic linguistic investigation or argument. He didn't even consult a third party linguist to ascertain which language these names most likely hail from i.e. Illyrian or Ancient Greek.

NGL Hammond was a philhellene so he argued (poorly in my opinion) that all these same names are effectively non-related coincidences. He basically uses references of different political affiliations of the tribes to say they are not related, or he argues that geographical distance means they are not related.

It makes no sense why he has no linguistic arguments, since this is first and foremost a linguistic issue and there are only three scenarios:

1. That the names have an Illyrian etymology
2. The names have a Greek etymology
3. That they both have their own respective etymologies but are by coincidence similar


SOURCE: The Illyrian Atintani, the Epirotic Atintanes and the Roman Protectorate by NGL Hammond

Aspurg
13-12-18, 16:44
Illyrians were composed of several groups. There was a later LBA/EIA migration of various Urnfield culture elements and there are clearly identifiable Illyrian tribes some of whom differed considerably in their culture. J-L283 clades seem to have arrived earlier. Urnfield elements most likely included mutliple R1b U152 clades also quite possibly R-BY611, alongside some younger but very expansive E-V13 clades such as L241 and also Y145455, CTS9320 maybe some clades but this one has I believe more of a proto-Triballian/Daco-Moesian inspiration, and actually some of those people also joined Illyrians initially via alliances (like Atenica Illyrian burial) and later assimilation. Also J-ZS3128 fits there nicely. While Delmatae must have been dominantly J-L283 because their archaeological culture was a direct continuation of this culture where this L283 was found. I think generally L283 were more of aboriginal in comparison to Urnfield elements. Z631 seems very widespread even in a Celtic way but as already there are 2 Z631 clades in Albania, and there are some in Serbia and Montenegro which might prove to be some parallel clades, it might come to Z631 being connected with Glasinac-Mati Illyrian complex, because this complex in its core also should have included L283 clades. In such a case some Z631 could have been subsequently assimilated by Celts.

Whose language was Illyrian? Because I presume L283's and Unrfield Illyrians would have spoken different languages, and did some of those differences persist later in antiquity? That's much harder to say. There was according to Pliny a differentiation such as "Illyrians and real Illyrians/properly called Illyrians": Labeati, Senedi, Rudini, Sasaei, Grabaei were "real Illyrians" while Taulanti and Pyraei were "Illyrians".

According to Pomponius Mela "quos proprie Illyrios tum Pyraei et Liburnii et Istrii", so here also Pyraei are after "real Illyrians" also and with Liburnii and Istrii, I suspect Liburnii might have been L283 and PH1246 (going by Cetina culture hypothesis for V13) so does this mean that "Illyrians" are these pre-Urnfield tribes? Not sure, but it's worthy to explore further.

Trojet
13-12-18, 17:02
Illyrians were composed of several groups. There was a later LBA/EIA migration of various Urnfield culture elements and there are clearly identifiable Illyrian tribes some of whom differed considerably in their culture. J-L283 clades seem to have arrived earlier. Urnfield elements most likely included mutliple R1b U152 clades also quite possibly R-BY611, alongside some younger but very expansive E-V13 clades such as L241 and also Y145455, CTS9320 maybe some clades but this one has I believe more of a proto-Triballian/Daco-Moesian inspiration, and actually some of those people also joined Illyrians initially via alliances (like Atenica Illyrian burial) and later assimilation. Also J-ZS3128 fits there nicely. While Delmatae must have been dominantly J-L283 because their archaeological culture was a direct continuation of this culture where this L283 was found. I think generally L283 were more of aboriginal in comparison to Urnfield elements. Z631 seems very widespread even in a Celtic way but as already there are 2 Z631 clades in Albania, and there are some in Serbia and Montenegro which might prove to be some parallel clades, it might come to Z631 being connected with Glasinac-Mati Illyrian complex, because this complex in its core also should have included L283 clades. In such a case some Z631 could have been subsequently assimilated by Celts.
Whose language was Illyrian? Because I presume L283's and Unrfield Illyrians would have spoken different languages, and did some of those differences persist later in antiquity? That's much harder to say. There was according to Pliny a differentiation such as "Illyrians and real Illyrians/properly called Illyrians": Labeati, Senedi, Rudini, Sasaei, Grabaei were "real Illyrians" while Taulanti and Pyraei were "Illyrians".
According to Pomponius Mela "quos proprie Illyrios tum Pyraei et Liburnii et Istrii", so here also Pyraei are after "real Illyrians" also and with Liburnii and Istrii, I suspect Liburnii might have been L283 and PH1246 (going by Cetina culture hypothesis for V13) so does this mean that "Illyrians" are these pre-Urnfield tribes? Not sure, but it's worthy to explore further.

Nice analysis, Aspurg :)

In regards to J-Z631, a couple of days ago a person with origin from Greece, who is a match to the Albanian J-Z631>Thaçi Korbi Cluster, through BigY tested as Z631+ and negative for downstreams (Z1043 unknown as it's not well read by the BigY). I hope he uploads to YFull. So it certainly appears we have a third parallel J-Z631 line in Albania alone. Considering there is more interesting Z631 haplotypes in Albania and Montenegro, this is consistent with the idea that it expanded out of Western Balkans and the hypothesis you're bringing up. I think many of the Z631/Z1043 clades likely expanded through the Romans (for example, there seems to be a lot of Z631 diversity along the Rhine river), and possibly earlier assimilated by the expanding Celts also.

Aspurg
13-12-18, 18:48
Nice analysis, Aspurg :)

In regards to J-Z631, a couple of days ago a person with origin from Greece, who is a match to the Albanian J-Z631>Thaçi Korbi Cluster, through BigY tested as Z631+ and negative for downstreams (Z1043 unknown as it's not well read by the BigY). I hope he uploads to YFull. So it certainly appears we have a third parallel J-Z631 line in Albania alone. Considering there is more interesting Z631 haplotypes in Albania and Montenegro, this is consistent with the idea that it expanded out of Western Balkans and the hypothesis you're bringing up. I think many of the Z631/Z1043 clades likely expanded through the Romans (for example, there seems to be a lot of Z631 diversity along the Rhine river), and possibly earlier assimilated by the expanding Celts also.



Thanks.:) Interesting, that Greek even in worse case scenario would be some Z1043* so yes diversity is increasing in the West Balkan area for Z631 and importantly these are basal at Z631 level, indicating it spread from there. I agree that Romans likely spread some of it as well.
There is 485976 Croat J-Z1048 (Z8429-, Z8425- that used to be at Z8424 level?), I know he was estimated as possible PH1553, that's still high enough on Z631 tree.


What is interesting are also these five Z631 looking haplotypes from Romania, two are from Dolj and 3 from Brasov, which was one of core areas of the Basarabi culture. There were some Glasinac-Mati people apparently who migrated there to Dolj area and there were some influences between Basarabi and Glasinac-Mati culture. As I told you it seems to me especially due to CTS6377* and 3 CTS9320* results from Montana and Dolj (one more eastward Bulgarian 175170 CTS9320* seems certainly related to RU383 Dolj Romanian from this study due to mutliple non-modal matches) one of core Basarabi areas I went to associate CTS9320 with this culture and I think there might be a very strong connection between the two (alongside possibly some other cultures, like Gava etc.). So because of this migration Z631 also seems to me like a good match for Glasinac-Mati culture.
J-M241+
RU321 Bra 12 24 15 10 13-16 11 14 0 12 11 28 16 16 19 10 13 9 21
RU337 Bra 12 24 15 10 13-16 11 14 12 12 11 28 16 16 19 10 13 9 21
RU338 Bra 12 24 15 10 13-16 11 14 12 12 11 28 16 16 19 10 13 9 21
RU350 Dol 12 24 15 10 13-17 11 14 12 12 11 28 15 16 19 9 13 9 21
RU354 Dol 12 24 15 10 13-17 11 14 12 12 11 28 15 16 19 10 13 9 21


These seem certainly related because of non-modal dys388=14, so some dys388=14 Z631 might their best fit.


Also interesting is PH1602 because as Veliki Vanik find is Y15058+, there is one PH1602 result from Bosnia and one from Serbia (alongside Bulgarian but their TMRCA is only 1250 ybp), so PH1602 might easily also have something to do with Glasinac culture. PH1602 thus far is absent in Albania.

Sile
13-12-18, 18:56
Illyrians were composed of several groups. There was a later LBA/EIA migration of various Urnfield culture elements and there are clearly identifiable Illyrian tribes some of whom differed considerably in their culture. J-L283 clades seem to have arrived earlier. Urnfield elements most likely included mutliple R1b U152 clades also quite possibly R-BY611, alongside some younger but very expansive E-V13 clades such as L241 and also Y145455, CTS9320 maybe some clades but this one has I believe more of a proto-Triballian/Daco-Moesian inspiration, and actually some of those people also joined Illyrians initially via alliances (like Atenica Illyrian burial) and later assimilation. Also J-ZS3128 fits there nicely. While Delmatae must have been dominantly J-L283 because their archaeological culture was a direct continuation of this culture where this L283 was found. I think generally L283 were more of aboriginal in comparison to Urnfield elements. Z631 seems very widespread even in a Celtic way but as already there are 2 Z631 clades in Albania, and there are some in Serbia and Montenegro which might prove to be some parallel clades, it might come to Z631 being connected with Glasinac-Mati Illyrian complex, because this complex in its core also should have included L283 clades. In such a case some Z631 could have been subsequently assimilated by Celts.
Whose language was Illyrian? Because I presume L283's and Unrfield Illyrians would have spoken different languages, and did some of those differences persist later in antiquity? That's much harder to say. There was according to Pliny a differentiation such as "Illyrians and real Illyrians/properly called Illyrians": Labeati, Senedi, Rudini, Sasaei, Grabaei were "real Illyrians" while Taulanti and Pyraei were "Illyrians".
According to Pomponius Mela "quos proprie Illyrios tum Pyraei et Liburnii et Istrii", so here also Pyraei are after "real Illyrians" also and with Liburnii and Istrii, I suspect Liburnii might have been L283 and PH1246 (going by Cetina culture hypothesis for V13) so does this mean that "Illyrians" are these pre-Urnfield tribes? Not sure, but it's worthy to explore further.
Check Byzantine records as the people called triballi are the Serbs, 100% thracian area same as Moesia superior and Moesia lesser
.
illyrian belongs to:
Until the middle of the second millennium BC, the Proto-Italo-Celto-Illyro-Thraco-Dacian was a single language. After that some phonological change appeared in different dialects of this proto-language. Namely in the dialect from the middle of this group from which evolved the Continental Celtic and the Oscan and Umbrian, the labiovelar (kʷ, gʷ) turned into bi-labials (p, b). The innovations affects all these languages (one should remember that the forefathers of Oscans and Umbrians migrated from the upper Danube valley into the Italian peninsula)

Trojet
13-12-18, 20:35
Thanks.:) Interesting, that Greek even in worse case scenario would be some Z1043* so yes diversity is increasing in the West Balkan area for Z631 and importantly these are basal at Z631 level, indicating it spread from there. I agree that Romans likely spread some of it as well.
There is 485976 Croat J-Z1048 (Z8429-, Z8425- that used to be at Z8424 level?), I know he was estimated as possible PH1553, that's still high enough on Z631 tree.
What is interesting are also these five Z631 looking haplotypes from Romania, two are from Dolj and 3 from Brasov, which was one of core areas of the Basarabi culture. There were some Glasinac-Mati people apparently who migrated there to Dolj area and there were some influences between Basarabi and Glasinac-Mati culture. As I told you it seems to me especially due to CTS6377* and 3 CTS9320* results from Montana and Dolj (one more eastward Bulgarian 175170 CTS9320* seems certainly related to RU383 Dolj Romanian from this study due to mutliple non-modal matches) one of core Basarabi areas I went to associate CTS9320 with this culture and I think there might be a very strong connection between the two (alongside possibly some other cultures, like Gava etc.). So because of this migration Z631 also seems to me like a good match for Glasinac-Mati culture.
J-M241+
RU321 Bra 12 24 15 10 13-16 11 14 0 12 11 28 16 16 19 10 13 9 21
RU337 Bra 12 24 15 10 13-16 11 14 12 12 11 28 16 16 19 10 13 9 21
RU338 Bra 12 24 15 10 13-16 11 14 12 12 11 28 16 16 19 10 13 9 21
RU350 Dol 12 24 15 10 13-17 11 14 12 12 11 28 15 16 19 9 13 9 21
RU354 Dol 12 24 15 10 13-17 11 14 12 12 11 28 15 16 19 10 13 9 21
These seem certainly related because of non-modal dys388=14, so some dys388=14 Z631 might their best fit.
Also interesting is PH1602 because as Veliki Vanik find is Y15058+, there is one PH1602 result from Bosnia and one from Serbia (alongside Bulgarian but their TMRCA is only 1250 ybp), so PH1602 might easily also have something to do with Glasinac culture. PH1602 thus far is absent in Albania.

Yes, this Greek is either Z631* or Z1043*, if he doesn't share any Private SNPs with someone else on that phylogeny. (I can confirm he is negative for the other Z631 downstreams).

You're right, there is also the Croatian, kit 485976, who is tested as Z1043+ and Z8425- which is at the same level as Z8424. So it seems another "basal" Z631 in the Western Balkans.

Those 5 haplotypes from Romania certainly appear as Z631+ and also related among each other based on DYS388=14. Hard to say, their ancestor could've also migrated there much later, such as during the Roman Empire or even later as Vlachs.

Indeed, PH1602 hasn't been found among Albanians thus far. This clade's center of diversity is certainly in the Western Balkans as well, though it seems further north in the area of Croatia/Bosnia.

IMO, J-L283 expanded in the Western Balkans during the Middle Bronze Age, or around the timeframe we find this J-L283>Y15058 in Dalmatia. So what's likely to have happened is around that time, generally Z1296 probably went further south (modern Montenegro, North Albania), while Y15058 generally more northern (modern Croatia, Bosnia). This is also supported by the new sample from Mat, Albania, as he should split the J-Y20899 clade, which is a "basal" J-Z1296, around that timeframe or Middle Bronze Age. Also, in a STR study from Apulia, I didn't see any PH1602 looking haplotypes (PH1602 usually has DYS456=12), but I noticed some Z1296 looking ones, particularly Z1296>Y20899, and Z1296>Z1297>Y23094, maybe others. Again, consistent with the idea that Y15058 was more northern, while Z638>Z1296 more southern.

Aspurg
13-12-18, 21:54
Yes, this Greek is either Z631* or Z1043*, if he doesn't share any Private SNPs with someone else on that phylogeny. (I can confirm he is negative for the other Z631 downstreams).

You're right, there is also the Croatian, kit 485976, who is tested as Z1043+ and Z8425- which is at the same level as Z8424. So it seems another "basal" Z631 in the Western Balkans.

Those 5 haplotypes from Romania certainly appear as Z631+ and also related among each other based on DYS388=14. Hard to say, their ancestor could've also migrated there much later, such as during the Roman Empire or even later as Vlachs.

Indeed, PH1602 hasn't been found among Albanians thus far. This clade's center of diversity is certainly in the Western Balkans as well, though it seems further north in the area of Croatia/Bosnia.

IMO, J-L283 expanded in the Western Balkans during the Middle Bronze Age, or around the timeframe we find this J-L283>Y15058 in Dalmatia. So what's likely to have happened is around that time, generally Z1296 probably went further south (modern Montenegro, North Albania), while Y15058 generally more northern (modern Croatia, Bosnia). This is also supported by the new sample from Mat, Albania, as he should split the J-Y20899 clade, which is a "basal" J-Z1296, around that timeframe or Middle Bronze Age. Also, in a STR study from Apulia, I didn't see any PH1602 looking haplotypes (PH1602 usually has DYS456=12), but I noticed some Z1296 looking ones, particularly Z1296>Y20899, and Z1296>Z1297>Y23094, maybe others. Again, consistent with the idea that Y15058 was more northern, while Z638>Z1296 more southern.

Yes, Romanians could have arrived later, no way to know without deeper tests, too bad not many Romanians are tested at ftdna..

There are several Serb families from Lika, Croatia and Western Bosnia PH1602 who have St. Luke as patron saint and also related to them one from Herceg Novi, Montenegro, one of these is 16/67 with YF07839 Croat from Western Herzegovina so definitely some diversity there. Considering archaeological evidence it seems Delmatae had very likely PH1602.

I agree with such a migration path, and going after this archaeological culture Nezir III complex in Albania seems to be a likely clue for Z1296's path. Unfortunately I didn't read much about this as most literature is in Albanian so I'm not sure to what Illyrian tribes Albanian archaeologists related this complex to. Yes, this Dinara culture was predominately Middle Bronze Age culture in it's nature (throughout all phases), and in Late Bronze age early Delmatae culture was already identifiable.

There is also something very interesting, there was a study about Croatian island population and for example J2b-M12 was 5/99 on Cres, and impressive 6/68 and 6/42 on Pasman and Ugljan respectively. Unfortunately no haplotypes or SNP's below M12 but surely those must be dominantly L283. Pasman and Ugljan were Liburnian territory, so other than Delmatae one should expect some L283's among them too, although I think Liburni were definitely more mixed than Delmatae.

Dreptul Valah
13-12-18, 22:04
Futu-ti pizda ma-tii,iti imprastii creierii pe toti peretii.


I'll **** your mother's pussy and I'll blow your brains on all the walls.


@Aspurg

Trojet
13-12-18, 22:08
Check Byzantine records as the people called triballi are the Serbs, 100% thracian area same as Moesia superior and Moesia lesser
.
illyrian belongs to:
Until the middle of the second millennium BC, the Proto-Italo-Celto-Illyro-Thraco-Dacian was a single language. After that some phonological change appeared in different dialects of this proto-language. Namely in the dialect from the middle of this group from which evolved the Continental Celtic and the Oscan and Umbrian, the labiovelar (kʷ, gʷ) turned into bi-labials (p, b). The innovations affects all these languages (one should remember that the forefathers of Oscans and Umbrians migrated from the upper Danube valley into the Italian peninsula)

LOL. What are you, some bot who simultaneously keeps posting the same nonsense in two different forums :laughing:

Trojet
13-12-18, 22:10
Futu-ti pizda ma-tii,iti imprastii creierii pe toti peretii.

I certainly hope you get banned for this!!

Dreptul Valah
13-12-18, 22:13
I certainly hope you get banned for this!!

Don't be so sure...

Dreptul Valah
13-12-18, 22:28
Identify yourself, now.


What are you,a Serbian,Bulgarian, Bosnian,Albanian?


Because of your cheap provocations, I have some issues with the authorities from Bucharest,I think you all know what this means...

Aspurg
14-12-18, 02:21
Identify yourself, now.

Men? Kumanım, sen?



Identify yourself, now.




What are you,a Serbian,Bulgarian, Bosnian,Albanian?

Sure, have some links with all of that, Albanian most distant but one in 19 Albanians is my distant cousin in Iron age. My clan is from Montenegro we came there in a raid many centuries ago with Bulgarian-Cuman army. So you say your lowly family bred sheeps, my clan were known for breeding horses, many horses, we always had lots of horses, as it turns out not only 200 years ago, 400 years ago but also 600, 800, 1000,... so you're born to handle sheeps but I'm born to handle horses because I'm a Cuman bori and you're a good obedient sheep, aren't you? :smile: Of course you are.:good_job: Otherwise I think I need a fresh supply of skulls for my Bolgar drinking cups..

And who the f*** are you, when I look at your Romanian surnames, there is almost not a family that knows ancestry past 100-150 years, while in Montenegro all clans know their ancestry, my clan 400-500 or even more years old, every man with our very clan name has our genetics, and most clans in Montenegro come out as they claim to be.

Trust me you dont come close to me when it comes to insults, I'm just very talented in that respect but this is a civilized internet space so I can behave, go play your internet warrior games with some of your fellow beta males..

Guido Anselmi
14-12-18, 04:59
There are several Serb families from Lika, Croatia and Western Bosnia PH1602 who have St. Luke as patron saint and also related to them one from Herceg Novi, Montenegro, one of these is 16/67 with YF07839 Croat from Western Herzegovina so definitely some diversity there. Considering archaeological evidence it seems Delmatae had very likely PH1602.

Where are you getting this information on these Serb families? I know that there is one from Glamoc but I haven't seen the rest.

As for YFO7839 their migration to their present location occurred in the mid-18th century from today's Siroki Brijeg, and specifically Mostarsko Blato.

BTW what does 16/67 mean in terms of relatedness? How many generations?

Aspurg
14-12-18, 12:22
Where are you getting this information on these Serb families? I know that there is one from Glamoc but I haven't seen the rest.

As for YFO7839 their migration to their present location occurred in the mid-18th century from today's Siroki Brijeg, and specifically Mostarsko Blato.

BTW what does 16/67 mean in terms of relatedness? How many generations?

That family from Citluk is surely related to families from Novi Grad and Gradiska further north. Also likely more distantly related is one from Herceg Novi. Citluk family is from ftdna, the rest are from the Belgrade lab.

16/67 is a bit, 1500-2000 years they might be the same clade as you but L283 haplotypes often seem much closer on STR's then they really are so they might be easily a parallel branch with you.

I bet you are Delmatae descendant. I think I might be Ardiaei from maternal side.

Aspurg
20-12-18, 15:58
Interestingly in the Basarab study there are 9 individuals (out of 29) with Basarab surnames tested as M241+. Unfortunately there is no dys385 (for non-Basarab hyplotypes these values were added in Roma study later) however it is possible to find out their dys385 value. As it is Basarab haplotype has 2 non-modal values dys388=16 and dys389a=13. They share both of these values with Romanians ht96 from Piatra Neamt and Buhusi (Moldavian study) and 169 from Ploiesti (Aromanian study) and these both have dys385=13-17, so that must be the value for Basarab individuals, so there seems to be another Z631 clade in Romania.
Related to these should/must be Greek from Peloponnese kit 50395. Not sure where would this clade fit under Z631. I've noticed also one Romanian dys385a=10. It seems Z631 are majority of L283's in Romania, and there is some diversity (dys388=14, dys388=16, dys385a=10, plus one "modal"). If Z631's are older there they might have expanded with this Glasinac-Mati movement and might have been picked up there by the Celts whos presence was stronger there than in the South. When one looks at basal J-CTS11760 clades they look Celtic (2 Spanish, 1 Italian, 1 German).

Btw there is another Greek kit N14037, who shares with many Aromanians from Dukasi, Albania (48 %) dys388=17 and dys19=14, dys389b=17, he is a good Big-Y candidate for what looks to be another distant clade of PH2967.

Leka
20-12-18, 17:30
Those 9 samples are actually also matching nicely our Thaçi-Korbi Z631 cluster, 388=16 and 389=13-29. Their values on 385 are 14-16, however.

Aspurg
20-12-18, 18:09
Those 9 samples are actually also matching nicely our Thaçi-Korbi Z631 cluster, 388=16 and 389=13-29. Their values on 385 are 14-16, however.

That's very interesting, well we do know that for all Z631 modal is dys385a=13 or less, so it's likely Thaçi-Korbi mutated back to 14. They are not yet tested for anything under Z631?
I would say these Basarabi are very likely related to them because dys388=16+dys389=13-29 is extremely rare, other than this Greek I don't think any other ftdna haplotype has such combo. The question is how distant are they to each other. There is one Albanian dys385=13-17, dys389=13-29 at YHRD from a sample of 100 Albanians. I'll "canibalize" more STR's for these Basarab from studies, as few Romanians are tested at ftdna. And then we can compare them together with this Greek.

Trojet
20-12-18, 21:08
That's very interesting, well we do know that for all Z631 modal is dys385a=13 or less, so it's likely Thaçi-Korbi mutated back to 14. They are not yet tested for anything under Z631?
I would say these Basarabi are very likely related to them because dys388=16+dys389=13-29 is extremely rare, other than this Greek I don't think any other ftdna haplotype has such combo. The question is how distant are they to each other. There is one Albanian dys385=13-17, dys389=13-29 at YHRD from a sample of 100 Albanians. I'll "canibalize" more STR's for these Basarab from studies, as few Romanians are tested at ftdna. And then we can compare them together with this Greek.

I think this Basarabi haplotype is a (recent) migrant from further south. As you noticed, they all share DYS388=16, DYS389I, II=13, 29, and are close to each other which suggests a founder effect. This is precisely the same haplotype that a Greek through BigY recently tested Z631+ and negative for downstreams as I described on the top post. The J-Z631>Thaçi Korbi Cluster, with 385=14-16, is around 8/111 to this Greek, so they certainly seem to be related within around 1000 years. This Greek might have a closer Albanian match. For example, here is a Tosk haplotype from Boattini et al 2015: 12 24 16 10 13 17 12 13 11 29 16 16 19 11 13 9 23

The Greek has only one difference out of 17 markers, and that is DYS19=15 vs 16. The above haplotype is missing the key 388=16 to be certain of their relationship though. Anyways, this Z631 haplotype with 388=16 and 389I, II=13, 29 to me seems some shared "Albano-Vlach cluster". Worth mentioning is that we recently got a J-Z631 looking haplotype from Mat, Albania. He is around 13/67 from the above haplotype but doesn't have the above characteristic values. Though J-L283 haplotypes, and especially J-Z1296, are usually much farther apart than they appear, as you have noticed. But considering J-Z631 is very diverse in Albania (much more than I initially thought), and 388=16, 389I, II=13, 29 appearing in Albania, this haplotype most definitely has its roots in western Balkans I would say.

Trojet
20-12-18, 22:27
Btw there is another Greek kit N14037, who shares with many Aromanians from Dukasi, Albania (48 %) dys388=17 and dys19=14, dys389b=17, he is a good Big-Y candidate for what looks to be another distant clade of PH2967.

Indeed! I have actually tried to get a hold of this Greek (kit N14037) through FTDNA projects for the purpose of deeper testing, but I've had no luck.
He is certainly related to the Aromanian Cluster from Dukasi, Fier, Albania. Interestingly enough, out of 14 Aromanian samples from Albania, we have no J-L283 in the Albanian project as of yet.

As I posted on the Albanian forum, I found out that there is a big Aromanian clan/tribe in Dukasi, Fier. I think it's quite likely they are responsible for the very high percentage (48%) of J-L283 in Dukasi Aromanians, and all related with characteristic values at 19=14, 388=17, 389II=29.
DYS19=14 does suggest some PH2967, though hard to say for sure as this value has appeared elsewhere within L283. We'll be looking to get a sample from this tribe and hopefully it turns out this haplotype so we can test it deeper.

BTW, YFull did create the new split on the J-PH2967 subclade defined by the sample from Mat, Albania, as you noticed. However, they haven't updated the TMRCA as of yet. That TMRCA should be no less than 3000 ybp, and more likely around 3400 ybp. I expect YFull to eventually update it..

Aspurg
20-12-18, 22:38
I think this Basarabi haplotype is a (recent) migrant from further south. As you noticed, they all share DYS388=16, DYS389I, II=13, 29, and are close to each other which suggests a founder effect. This is precisely the same haplotype that a Greek through BigY recently tested Z631+ and negative for downstreams as I described on the top post. The J-Z631>Thaçi Korbi Cluster, with 385=14-16, is around 8/111 to this Greek, so they certainly seem to be related within around 1000 years. This Greek might have a closer Albanian match. For example, here is a Tosk haplotype from Boattini et al 2015: 12 24 16 10 13 17 12 13 11 29 16 16 19 11 13 9 23

The Greek has only one difference out of 17 markers, and that is DYS19=15 vs 16. The above haplotype is missing the key 388=16 to be certain of their relationship though. Anyways, this Z631 haplotype with 388=16 and 389I, II=13, 29 to me seems some shared "Albano-Vlach cluster". Worth mentioning is that we recently got a J-Z631 looking haplotype from Mat, Albania. He is around 13/67 from the above haplotype but doesn't have the above characteristic values. Though J-L283 haplotypes, and especially J-Z1296, are usually much farther apart than they appear, as you have noticed. But considering J-Z631 is very diverse in Albania (much more than I initially thought), and 388=16, 389I, II=13, 29 appearing in Albania, this haplotype most definitely has its roots in western Balkans I would say.

Ah, I see this is the new Z631* you were mentioning. It was clear immediately these people are some closely related cluster, just I wasn't sure from where it came from. Now I'm sure, obviously Z631 Basarabi migrated with other Vlachs in 12th/13th century north of Danube to Cumania.:smile: Same goes for members of at least one Basarabi E-V13 cluster who posses identical haplotype and key matches with a Greek from Thrace who in turn is connected in Medieval times to a "Greek" (that is Vlach) north of Trikkala, they are Z5017>BY4684 (Z19851-) and they have a more distant relative in Bulgaria, so this clade is not ancient Greek. And when I was speaking of Z5017 diversity in Bulgaria you can add this clade too.:smile:

You have these two Z631 389=13-29 as well.
12 24 15 10 13-17 12 13 11 29 16 16 19 10 13 9 23 Athens, Greece [Greek] 1/148
12 24 15 10 13-17 12 13 11 29 16 16 19 10 13 9 23 Albania [Albanian] 1/100

Albanian haplotype is from Robino et al. 2002 study of 100 Albanians living in Italy (initially it had minimal STR's but he added these YFiler haplotypes in 2008). These are fully matching Basarabi/Greek (except dys635=22 for Basarab though one has 23)

Trojet
27-12-18, 01:53
An important ancient DNA find for haplogroup J2b-L283. From the study The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/05/16/322347), the BAM file (raw data) just came out (https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/ERP111919).

I checked the BAM file for sample: KDC001.A0101 Kudachurt ~3823 YBP MBA North Caucasus X2i J2b

He is J-L283+ and Z627- YP91-. Furthermore, he is positive for 9 other J-L283 equivalents with the remaining no calls and no negatives. So he can simply be classified as J-L283*

This is the oldest J-L283 in an ancient DNA context yet, and being J-L283*, it further strengthens the hypothesis that it expanded to the Balkans/Europe from the direction it's found in and during the Bronze Age.

Dreptul Valah
27-12-18, 09:56
I said it from the start,several years ago,after I have red David Anthony's wrong conclusions,the only way that both the steppe IE scenario and satemization can really work for the Paleo-Balkanics is being part of the Catacomb culture.



Catacomb(south):Paleo-Balkanics



Fatyanovo(N):Balts



Dnepr c.(NW):P-Slavs


Poltavska(E):Indo-Iranians



https://m.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1511519#/media/File%3AFatyanovo-culture.jpg

Dreptul Valah
27-12-18, 10:25
Anthony's map:


https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/steppe-lmba-sintashta-potapovka-filatovka.jpg



It also explains some anthropologic traits that Western Indo-Europeans(Germans,Romans,Celts) share,perhaps with the Indo-Iranians too,heavy Cromagnized and Uralic-Mongoloid ,as a result of the early Yamnaya expansion/contacts with different peoples.



While the ancient Greeks and Paleo-Balkanics were more of a local development, preserving the Europoid/Caucasian traits,with the later having also,significant Dinaric features.



Trebenista mask,Thracian or Illyrian:



http://www.panacomp.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Maska1600x1200.jpg



http://www.panacomp.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/maski.jpg

Dreptul Valah
27-12-18, 15:28
The Greek-Armenian-Phrygian branch was probably part of this culture,either they left earlier and escaped satemization or had mixed with the Centum populations from the Lower
Danube.



It explains the relations between this branch and the Indo-Iranians,they share some linguistic traits.



The original, typical, Yamnaya Indo-Europeans were not only steppe horse riders,but also sailors from the northern coast of the Black Sea,they resemble the most in this respect the Catacomb communities who had constantly invaded the Anatolian shore ,southern lands in general,searching for metals,for these people sacking Troy was a very old tradition, much older than Homer says.



The other early IE peoples with this kind of activities are the Bell Beakers.



Catacomb IEans just followed the tradition from that area,involving in the so-called Circumpontic territory(see the Circumpontic Metallurgical Province),from where they borrowed elements such as the funerary masks(pg.25),etc.



https://books.google.ro/books?id=QGFPtIt7yVkC&pg=PA26&lpg=PA26&dq=greeks+catacomb+sea+route&source=bl&ots=e5f-5wku04&sig=u4Fy9NIJGEj41AV5N4QYXtUnICg&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwipu47v9r_fAhXpsYsKHekXBjUQ6AEwDXoECAcQA Q#v=onepage&q=greeks%20catacomb%20sea%20route&f=false

Wanderer
06-01-19, 06:47
An important ancient DNA find for haplogroup J2b-L283. From the study The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/05/16/322347), the BAM file (raw data) just came out (https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/ERP111919).

I checked the BAM file for sample: KDC001.A0101 Kudachurt ~3823 YBP MBA North Caucasus X2i J2b

He is J-L283+ and Z627- YP91-. Furthermore, he is positive for 9 other J-L283 equivalents with the remaining no calls and no negatives. So he can simply be classified as J-L283*

This is the oldest J-L283 in an ancient DNA context yet, and being J-L283*, it further strengthens the hypothesis that it expanded to the Balkans/Europe from the direction it's found in and during the Bronze Age.I was hoping J-L283 was medditeranean. Its looking caucus :(

Trojet
16-01-19, 15:53
An interesting result for J-L283>>Z1295>Z631. After the YFull analysis, YF17037 who is from Abruzzo, Italy, defines a split in J-Z8421 immediately above J-Z631. This would be consistent with the hypothesis that the origin and expansion of J-Z631 lies somewhere in the Adriatic region, likely the Western Balkans: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z8421/

gidai
16-01-19, 20:13
Among the hundreds of YDNA listed here, https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1TYJrkLXUap0Ip-8EIeTH-uzN4V8&ll=45.49395456132537%2C24.025325085150826&z=6 there are only 2 or 3 J in Europe from ancient times.

Today's situation places Albanians closest to the South and Central Greeks from the perspective of YDNA, with almost identical percentages of J or E.


Region/Haplogroup
I1

I2a
I2b
R1a

R1b
G

J2 ▴
J1
E1b1b
T
Q
N
Sample size




















South Greece
1.5
9
1
10.5
20.5
3.5

19.5

1
27

4.5

0
0
https://www.eupedia.com/images/design/rate05.gif


Albania
2
12
1.5
9
16
1.5
19.5
2
27.5
1
0
0
https://www.eupedia.com/images/design/rate07.gif


Central Greece
3.5
7
3.5
11
11.5
6
19
3.5
29.5
5
0
0
https://www.eupedia.com/images/design/rate05.gif



These does not prove at all that J has been such a large component some 500 - 1000 or more years ago.

Probably J exploded very recently from south Balkans, and are now found all over Europe, even in Estonia, Sweden, Norway, Scotland or Latvia.

Ownstyler
16-01-19, 20:32
Among the hundreds of YDNA listed here, https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1TYJrkLXUap0Ip-8EIeTH-uzN4V8&ll=45.49395456132537%2C24.025325085150826&z=6 there are only 2 or 3 J in Europe from ancient times.

Today's situation places Albanians closest to the South and Central Greeks from the perspective of YDNA, with almost identical percentages of J or E.


Region/Haplogroup
I1

I2a
I2b
R1a

R1b
G

J2 ▴
J1
E1b1b
T
Q
N
Sample size




















South Greece
1.5
9
1
10.5
20.5
3.5

19.5

1
27

4.5

0
0
https://www.eupedia.com/images/design/rate05.gif


Albania
2
12
1.5
9
16
1.5
19.5
2
27.5
1
0
0
https://www.eupedia.com/images/design/rate07.gif


Central Greece
3.5
7
3.5
11
11.5
6
19
3.5
29.5
5
0
0
https://www.eupedia.com/images/design/rate05.gif



These does not prove at all that J has been such a large componentcomponent some 500 - 1000 or more years ago.

Probably J exploded very recently from south Balkans, and are now found all over Europe, even in Estonia, Sweden, Norway, Scotland or Latvia.


Almost everything you said here is wrong. First, Albanian J2 is mostly J2b, while Greek J2 is mostly J2a. These two split almost 30.000 years ago. Second, J is very ancient and has expanded in the Balkans since at least the Bronze Age, maybe earlier. I'll leave it at this for now, but you need to do some more research. Look at the ancient DNA map, look at the Minoan DNA paper, look at the TMRCAs of J subclades in YFull, look at results from different Balkan FTDNA projects.

gidai
16-01-19, 20:47
Almost everything you said here is wrong. First, Albanian J2 is mostly J2b, while Greek J2 is mostly J2a. These two split almost 30.000 years ago. Second, J is very ancient and has expanded in the Balkans since at least the Bronze Age, maybe earlier. I'll leave it at this for now, but you need to do some more research. Look at the ancient DNA map, look at the Minoan DNA paper, look at the TMRCAs of J subclades in YFull, look at results from different Balkan FTDNA projects.

I do not understand what is wrong?!
Those are just data that has been determined by researchers in the field. I did not invent data but just told my opinion.

Ownstyler
16-01-19, 20:58
Probably J exploded very recently from south Balkans, and are now found all over Europe, even in Estonia, Sweden, Norway, Scotland or Latvia.

This is your opinion and it is completely wrong. Even in the map you posted, 7 out of around 20 ancient samples form the Balkans are J.

gidai
16-01-19, 20:59
Probably, some Js was in some proportions in palces like Creta, South Grece, South Caucas, many thounsand years, but more north in Europe... There are no evidence yet.

Ownstyler
16-01-19, 21:14
Probably, some Js was in some proportions in palces like Creta, South Grece, South Caucas, many thounsand years, but more north in Europe... There are no evidence yet.

There are two in Croatia as well, both west and east. Again, do so more research, and look at different papers, FTDNA projects and the YFull tree. You are very, very far from the truth.

gidai
16-01-19, 21:35
There are two in Croatia as well, both west and east. Yes 2-3, there are from over 60 other (especialy I2a, R1b, G2a) in Balkans area... but at the level of H2, C and less than T.


Again, do so more research, and look at different papers, FTDNA projects and the YFull tree. You are very, very far from the truth.I do not know. The project as well as the YFull are not about the current situation of the haplogrup?

Gash
16-01-19, 22:15
Probably, some Js was in some proportions in palces like Creta, South Grece, South Caucas, many thounsand years, but more north in Europe... There are no evidence yet.

Haplogroup J2b2 L283 was found in Bronze Age Northern Caucasus , so were more common ydna's that were more present in Indo Europeans such as certain R1a clades (which I haven't looked much into) and R1b atleast the L23 varient. The Indo Europeans clearly expanded from an area in Northern Caucasus or the Uralic mountains. They were a mix of Caucasians and Uralic people. Their language has also been suggested to of had this origin.

J2b2 L283 and R1b L23 or the deeper clades in Albanians are from Indo Europeans. The proto Ilyrians probably expanded into central Europe from the Northern Caucasus. In Central Europe they probably picked up quite some farmer admixture as the sample from Dalmatia had quite some. They expanded further into the West Balkans where they picked up even more farmer.

This is probably how Albanians , Greeks etc ended up as pred. Neolithic. Same thing would be applied for the proto Greeks.

Neolithic farmers had spread all across Europe way before even Bronze Age, and they made quite a presence even in central Europe, even Norwegians have quite some Neolithic admixture.

It is possible they came in different waves, there were some that had come through the sea, they were sea people and invaded Europe through the sea.

They contributed to modern Europeans in culture, language and genetics so the Indo European language theory in this regard makes no sense when they even only for example use the word Ilyrian to only refer to the people that had come from the Steppes. Such a word originated in the Western Balkans. Such people formed in the Balkans way after Bronze Age. And not in Bronze Age.


Among the hundreds of YDNA listed here, https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1TYJrkLXUap0Ip-8EIeTH-uzN4V8&ll=45.49395456132537%2C24.025325085150826&z=6 there are only 2 or 3 J in Europe from ancient times.

Today's situation places Albanians closest to the South and Central Greeks from the perspective of YDNA, with almost identical percentages of J or E.


Region/Haplogroup
I1

I2a
I2b
R1a

R1b
G

J2 ▴
J1
E1b1b
T
Q
N
Sample size




















South Greece
1.5
9
1
10.5
20.5
3.5

19.5

1
27

4.5

0
0
https://www.eupedia.com/images/design/rate05.gif


Albania
2
12
1.5
9
16
1.5
19.5
2
27.5
1
0
0
https://www.eupedia.com/images/design/rate07.gif


Central Greece
3.5
7
3.5
11
11.5
6
19
3.5
29.5
5
0
0
https://www.eupedia.com/images/design/rate05.gif



These does not prove at all that J has been such a large component some 500 - 1000 or more years ago.

Probably J exploded very recently from south Balkans, and are now found all over Europe, even in Estonia, Sweden, Norway, Scotland or Latvia.

Albanians are mostly J2b2 L283, it is mostly found in the North and Kosovo. Greeks are mostly J2a.

We share R1b and Ev13 though. These things could easily be a bottle neck effect. Albanians are more Northern shifted than Greeks as a whole.

Practically no evidence that haplogroup J came from south of the Balkans, atleast not J2b2 L283, everything points that it expanded with the Indo Europeans from the Northern Caucasus / Uralics and into the Balkans as we got a bronze age sample from Dalmatia and one from Northern Caucasus.

Hg J2a could of also expanded with Bronze Age people but more evidence is needed.

R1b L23 came def with IE people and is shared by all native Balkan people.

No evidence that J or E across Europe are from South Balkans or exploded recently , they could date all the way back to the Neolithic, Mesolithic and Bronze Age in such areas.



As for Albanians,

Albanians are probably a hybrid of Thracian and Ilyrian tribes with some Slavic. It is very unlikely Albanians came from one single tribe. Modern Albania was inhabited by different tribes, they didn't disappear in thin air, Kosovo and North Macedonia inhabited by the Dardani that probably also seeked refuge into Northern Albania and contributed to Albanians.

Some have suggested the Bessi Thracian tribe moved into Albania, they might also of contributed to Albanians but certainly cannot be the sole ancestors of Albanians pretty much dismantling Schramms theories and those Austrian scholars theories who copy pasted Schramm pretty much , another Austrian (I believe he was?) Georg Von hahns theory was much better , in his book Albanische studien, and less biased, you also have Elsie , Coon, Sufflay and Noel Malcolm that all did works on Albanians and plenty of others that make much more sense.

The Dardani bordered Bessi but Dardani were geographically closer to modern Albania, if a Bessi could of moved from West Bulgaria into Albania then so could the Dardani from Kosovo into Albania which it has been suggested and these people most certainly did not find Albania empty.

Ownstyler
16-01-19, 22:54
Yes 2-3, there are from over 60 other (especialy I2a, R1b, G2a) in Balkans area... but at the level of H2, C and less than T.

I do not know. The project as well as the YFull are not about the current situation of the haplogrup?

No, not 2-3 out 60, but 7 out of around 20 in that map. Most samples there don't have Y-DNA, and close to 1/3 of those who have are J, so using your own criteria it was more widespread then than now.

Anyway, this discussion is pointless since J is old enough to be found from Central Africa to Sweden. Look at subclades, look at TMRCA on YFull and projects on FTDNA. There you can find groups who relate to each other in the last 2000-4000 years. You will notice that J2b-L283, for example, was very diverse at that time.

gidai
16-01-19, 23:55
No, not 2-3 out 60, but 7 out of around 20 in that map. Most samples there don't have Y-DNA, and close to 1/3 of those who have are J, so using your own criteria it was more widespread then than now.

Anyway, this discussion is pointless since J is old enough to be found from Central Africa to Sweden. Look at subclades, look at TMRCA on YFull and projects on FTDNA. There you can find groups who relate to each other in the last 2000-4000 years. You will notice that J2b-L283, for example, was very diverse at that time.

I did not want to mix things up. There are sites in which more than 20 YDNAs were analyzed. In South Greece and in the Western Balkans, were found 7 Js , among others more then 20 haplogroups, of which 4 in Crete and southern Greece, but in the rest of Europe, not even among 200+.

Ownstyler
17-01-19, 00:05
I did not want to mix things up. There are sites in which more than 20 YDNAs were analyzed. In South Greece and in the Western Balkans, were found 7 Js , among others more then 20 haplogroups, of which 4 in Crete and southern Greece, but in the rest of Europe, not even among 200+.

Which site in the Balkans has more than 20 Y-DNA ancient samples?

gidai
17-01-19, 00:13
Haplogroup J2b2 L283 was found in Bronze Age Northern Caucasus , so were more common ydna's that were more present in Indo Europeans such as certain R1a clades (which I haven't looked much into) and R1b atleast the L23 varient. The Indo Europeans clearly expanded from an area in Northern Caucasus or the Uralic mountains. They were a mix of Caucasians and Uralic people. Their language has also been suggested to of had this origin.

J2b2 L283 and R1b L23 or the deeper clades in Albanians are from Indo Europeans. The proto Ilyrians probably expanded into central Europe from the Northern Caucasus. In Central Europe they probably picked up quite some farmer admixture as the sample from Dalmatia had quite some. They expanded further into the West Balkans where they picked up even more farmer.

This is probably how Albanians , Greeks etc ended up as pred. Neolithic. Same thing would be applied for the proto Greeks.

Neolithic farmers had spread all across Europe way before even Bronze Age, and they made quite a presence even in central Europe, even Norwegians have quite some Neolithic admixture.

It is possible they came in different waves, there were some that had come through the sea, they were sea people and invaded Europe through the sea.

They contributed to modern Europeans in culture, language and genetics so the Indo European language theory in this regard makes no sense when they even only for example use the word Ilyrian to only refer to the people that had come from the Steppes. Such a word originated in the Western Balkans. Such people formed in the Balkans way after Bronze Age. And not in Bronze Age.



Albanians are mostly J2b2 L283, it is mostly found in the North and Kosovo. Greeks are mostly J2a.

We share R1b and Ev13 though. These things could easily be a bottle neck effect. Albanians are more Northern shifted than Greeks as a whole.

Practically no evidence that haplogroup J came from south of the Balkans, atleast not J2b2 L283, everything points that it expanded with the Indo Europeans from the Northern Caucasus / Uralics and into the Balkans as we got a bronze age sample from Dalmatia and one from Northern Caucasus.

Hg J2a could of also expanded with Bronze Age people but more evidence is needed.

R1b L23 came def with IE people and is shared by all native Balkan people.

No evidence that J or E across Europe are from South Balkans or exploded recently , they could date all the way back to the Neolithic, Mesolithic and Bronze Age in such areas.



As for Albanians,

Albanians are probably a hybrid of Thracian and Ilyrian tribes with some Slavic. It is very unlikely Albanians came from one single tribe. Modern Albania was inhabited by different tribes, they didn't disappear in thin air, Kosovo and North Macedonia inhabited by the Dardani that probably also seeked refuge into Northern Albania and contributed to Albanians.

Some have suggested the Bessi Thracian tribe moved into Albania, they might also of contributed to Albanians but certainly cannot be the sole ancestors of Albanians pretty much dismantling Schramms theories and those Austrian scholars theories who copy pasted Schramm pretty much , another Austrian (I believe he was?) Georg Von hahns theory was much better , in his book Albanische studien, and less biased, you also have Elsie , Coon, Sufflay and Noel Malcolm that all did works on Albanians and plenty of others that make much more sense.

The Dardani bordered Bessi but Dardani were geographically closer to modern Albania, if a Bessi could of moved from West Bulgaria into Albania then so could the Dardani from Kosovo into Albania which it has been suggested and these people most certainly did not find Albania empty.Thank you! These are a lot of interesting information.

gidai
17-01-19, 00:26
Which site in the Balkans has more than 20 Y-DNA ancient samples?
In Balkans are some with less like:
I4870, I4871, I4872, I4873, I4874, I4875, I4876, I4877, I4878, I4880, I4881, I4882, I5771, I5772, Mesolithic-Neolithic, 7100-5900 BCE
I4914, I4915, I4916, I4917, I5401, I5402, Mesolithic, 7300-6000 BCE
I0700, I1108, I1109, I1113, I1295, I1297, I3879, Criș(?), 5800-5400 calBCE
But to the north:
SZ1, Bronze Age; SZ2, SZ3, SZ4, SZ5, SZ7, SZ8, SZ9, SZ11, SZ12, SZ13, SZ14, SZ15, SZ16, SZ18, SZ19, SZ22, SZ23, SZ24, SZ27B, SZ28, SZ30, SZ32, SZ36, SZ37, SZ38, SZ40, SZ42, SZ43, SZ45, Longobard, 410-600 AD; AV1, AV2, Avar(?), 540-640 AD
And examples are much others.

Ownstyler
17-01-19, 01:10
In Balkans are some with less like:
I4870, I4871, I4872, I4873, I4874, I4875, I4876, I4877, I4878, I4880, I4881, I4882, I5771, I5772, Mesolithic-Neolithic, 7100-5900 BCE
I4914, I4915, I4916, I4917, I5401, I5402, Mesolithic, 7300-6000 BCE
I0700, I1108, I1109, I1113, I1295, I1297, I3879, Criș(?), 5800-5400 calBCE


As I said, not all of them have Y-DNA! I thought you were unknowingly wrong, but now I see you were just lying.

You started by saying that there is almost no J in ancient Balkans, then said they're only 2-3 out of 60, and that it probably expanded in the last 500-1000 years. Now you see there are 7 ancient J results out of around 20, so your idea is wrong.

I have proven to you that J is very old in the Balkans, I'm not wasting any more time with this stupidity.

Gash
17-01-19, 01:32
Ilyrians were people that formed in the Balkans so did the Thracians. They were a mixture of different group of people, and I'm pretty sure by the time of the Roman Empire they were mostly Neolithic even in Croatia. I'm going by genetics of South Slavs and Albanians. Remove the East Europe in South Slavs and add more of the South East Europe and they will all plot with Albanians for example, more or less. but in every country or people there are natural variations , north and south shifts, even for such small people as Albanians. But South Slavs that are the least East Europe are usually the closest to us. And I seen some South Slavs plot more South than some North Albos despite those South Slavs had more East Europe.

There is practically no evidence that the Ilyrians spoke different languages, atleast not by the time they emerged in the Balkans. Coon mostly identified them with the Hallstatt and Glasinac.

The Ilyrians got their name from their Greek and Roman neighbors, how similar they were is debatable but they were probably similar given their name. They certainly shared a common origin and common cultural elements , at some points they were gathered into kingdoms also. But of course weren't always united, they had no national counsciousness , proper civilization , they were mostly tribal. Say compared to the Greeks that were more united and at some point even the Thracians.

The Proto Ilyrians had come from the Hallstatt , the Ilyrians were also identified with the Glasinac culture in the Balkans so they seemed to of belonged to a similar culture. Much else we cannot say about these people nor their language. There isn't much left. They were influenced by the Greeks and Romans.

In Bosnia they found evidence of ancient Greek mythology. So did they for the Ilyrians in Italy.

One group of proto Ilyrians seem also to of invaded Italy during the Bronze Age.

Clades and subclades of ydnas or who carried what is certainly hard to identify with such people or every group among them as there are too little samples for once and they are possibly bottle neck effects but interesting to note all Ydnas common in Albanians were found in Croatia itself. Were the Ilyrians really that different ? Maybe there was a racial difference, dialectal and cultural difference as expected for such a large area same way there are differences among Italians or even small people like Albanians but by the time of the historical Ilyrians emerged who are we to say they weren't similar people ? There might of been natural variations for each region and foreign cultural elements like Celtic, Venetic, Greek etc but they could of still been united into a single country had it been possible at that time and wouldn't of neccessarly stood out more than any other modern country.


Illyrians were composed of several groups. There was a later LBA/EIA migration of various Urnfield culture elements and there are clearly identifiable Illyrian tribes some of whom differed considerably in their culture. J-L283 clades seem to have arrived earlier. Urnfield elements most likely included mutliple R1b U152 clades also quite possibly R-BY611, alongside some younger but very expansive E-V13 clades such as L241 and also Y145455, CTS9320 maybe some clades but this one has I believe more of a proto-Triballian/Daco-Moesian inspiration, and actually some of those people also joined Illyrians initially via alliances (like Atenica Illyrian burial) and later assimilation. Also J-ZS3128 fits there nicely. While Delmatae must have been dominantly J-L283 because their archaeological culture was a direct continuation of this culture where this L283 was found. I think generally L283 were more of aboriginal in comparison to Urnfield elements. Z631 seems very widespread even in a Celtic way but as already there are 2 Z631 clades in Albania, and there are some in Serbia and Montenegro which might prove to be some parallel clades, it might come to Z631 being connected with Glasinac-Mati Illyrian complex, because this complex in its core also should have included L283 clades. In such a case some Z631 could have been subsequently assimilated by Celts.

Whose language was Illyrian? Because I presume L283's and Unrfield Illyrians would have spoken different languages, and did some of those differences persist later in antiquity? That's much harder to say. There was according to Pliny a differentiation such as "Illyrians and real Illyrians/properly called Illyrians": Labeati, Senedi, Rudini, Sasaei, Grabaei were "real Illyrians" while Taulanti and Pyraei were "Illyrians".

According to Pomponius Mela "quos proprie Illyrios tum Pyraei et Liburnii et Istrii", so here also Pyraei are after "real Illyrians" also and with Liburnii and Istrii, I suspect Liburnii might have been L283 and PH1246 (going by Cetina culture hypothesis for V13) so does this mean that "Illyrians" are these pre-Urnfield tribes? Not sure, but it's worthy to explore further.

Dema
17-01-19, 03:54
I was hoping J-L283 was medditeranean. Its looking caucus :(

Liburnians and Dalmatae were Mediterranean people and there is also J2b-L283 ancient DNA found.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburnians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatae

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_warfare

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/60/Liburnia_5th_BC.png/800px-Liburnia_5th_BC.png

Sile
17-01-19, 06:15
Ilyrians were people that formed in the Balkans so did the Thracians. They were a mixture of different group of people, and I'm pretty sure by the time of the Roman Empire they were mostly Neolithic even in Croatia. I'm going by genetics of South Slavs and Albanians. Remove the East Europe in South Slavs and add more of the South East Europe and they will all plot with Albanians for example, more or less. but in every country or people there are natural variations , north and south shifts, even for such small people as Albanians. But South Slavs that are the least East Europe are usually the closest to us. And I seen some South Slavs plot more South than some North Albos despite those South Slavs had more East Europe.
There is practically no evidence that the Ilyrians spoke different languages, atleast not by the time they emerged in the Balkans. Coon mostly identified them with the Hallstatt and Glasinac.
The Ilyrians got their name from their Greek and Roman neighbors, how similar they were is debatable but they were probably similar given their name. They certainly shared a common origin and common cultural elements , at some points they were gathered into kingdoms also. But of course weren't always united, they had no national counsciousness , proper civilization , they were mostly tribal. Say compared to the Greeks that were more united and at some point even the Thracians.
The Proto Ilyrians had come from the Hallstatt , the Ilyrians were also identified with the Glasinac culture in the Balkans so they seemed to of belonged to a similar culture. Much else we cannot say about these people nor their language. There isn't much left. They were influenced by the Greeks and Romans.
In Bosnia they found evidence of ancient Greek mythology. So did they for the Ilyrians in Italy.
One group of proto Ilyrians seem also to of invaded Italy during the Bronze Age.
Clades and subclades of ydnas or who carried what is certainly hard to identify with such people or every group among them as there are too little samples for once and they are possibly bottle neck effects but interesting to note all Ydnas common in Albanians were found in Croatia itself. Were the Ilyrians really that different ? Maybe there was a racial difference, dialectal and cultural difference as expected for such a large area same way there are differences among Italians or even small people like Albanians but by the time of the historical Ilyrians emerged who are we to say they weren't similar people ? There might of been natural variations for each region and foreign cultural elements like Celtic, Venetic, Greek etc but they could of still been united into a single country had it been possible at that time and wouldn't of neccessarly stood out more than any other modern country.
I agree with a lot you state, except the Greeks referred to Epirotes as Illyrians,...........only......even when the the corthians took Corfu in battle circa 700Bc, it was against the Liburnians, not illyrians
the Romans as far as I know never rarely used the term Illyrians,...they said the area of Illyricum, in which live the tribes of Dalmatians, Pannonians, Liburnians, Histrians etc
.
map above is in error with one, it misplaces the ardiaei.....they are from modern coastal Montenegro

gidai
17-01-19, 11:03
As I said, not all of them have Y-DNA! I thought you were unknowingly wrong, but now I see you were just lying.

You started by saying that there is almost no J in ancient Balkans, then said they're only 2-3 out of 60, and that it probably expanded in the last 500-1000 years. Now you see there are 7 ancient J results out of around 20, so your idea is wrong.

I have proven to you that J is very old in the Balkans, I'm not wasting any more time with this stupidity.
What are you talking about? Who says I reffer only to the Balkans?
How you found only... 20 YDNAs from all the Balkan area, of which 7 of them are J2 ? Can you post these 20 results you have found?
I do not claims scientific strictness, but as much as I could, I make an effort and I have done now a search for Balkans area. I found 42 ancient YDNA in only 14 sites with 2 or more YDNA analised. There are more than 2x20 remnants, only in these 14? We have 42 YDNAs ! From these two are J2a.
If you want to look for the sites with only one determination, let's see if we have 50-60 or more... and who lie?...

I5234, I5235, I5236, I5237, I5238, I5239, I5240, I5241, I5242, I5244, I5409, Mesolithic, 9500-6200 BCE
I5235
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)
I5236
Y-DNA: I2a1
I5237
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)
I5240
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)

I4870, I4871, I4872, I4873, I4874, I4875, I4876, I4877, I4878, I4880, I4881, I4882, I5771, I5772, Mesolithic-Neolithic, 7100-5900 BCE
I4870
Y-DNA: I2
I4878
Y-DNA: I2a2a
I4880
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b2
I4881
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b2
I4882
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b
I5771
Y-DNA: I
I5772
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)

I4914, I4915, I4916, I4917, I5401, I5402, Mesolithic, 7300-6000 BCE
I4914
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b2
I4915
Y-DNA: I2a2
I4916
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1,xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)
I5401
Y-DNA: I2a2
I5402
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b

SC1_Meso, SC2_Meso, I4607, I5411, I5436, Mesolithic, 7000-6500 BC
SC1_Meso
Y-DNA: R
SC2_Meso
Y-DNA: R1
I4607
Y-DNA: I2
I5411
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)

I2423, I2424, I2430, Late Chalcolithic, 4545-4260 calBCE; I2175, I2176, Early Bronze Age, 3328-3015 calBCE
I2430
Y-DNA: R1b1a
I2175
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b1
I2176
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b

scy192, scy197, scy300, scy301, scy303, scy305, scy311, Scythian, 400 - 200 BCE
scy197:
Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2
scy301:
Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2
scy305:
Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2

I0706, I2521, Neolithic, 6300-5900 BCE
I0706
Y-DNA: C
I2521
Y-DNA: G2a2b2b1a

cim357, cim358, Chernogorovka(Cimmerian?), 950 - 800 BCE
cim357:
Y-DNA: R1b1a
cim358:
Y-DNA: Q1a1

I1889, I1895, I1896, Vinca, 5300-5000 BCE
I1889:
Y-DNA: G2a2a
I1896:
Y-DNA: G2a2b2a1a

OC1_Meso, I4582, I5408, Mesolithic, 7000-5000 calBCE
OC1_Meso
Y-DNA: R1b
I5408
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)

I0071, I0070, I0073, I0074, I9005, Minoan, 2000-1700 BCE
I0070:
Y-DNA: J2a1d
I0073:
Y-DNA: J2a1

I0698, I2529, Early Neolithic, 6000-5500 BCE
I0698
Y-DNA: G2a2a1a2a
I2529
Y-DNA: I2a2

I3433, I3947, I3948, Impresso, 6400-5500 BCE
I3947
Y-DNA: C1a2
I3948
Y-DNA: E1b1b1a1b1

I0634, I1131, Vinča, 4710-4460 calBCE
I0634
Y-DNA: G2a2a1a
I1131
Y-DNA: G2a2a1a

Ownstyler
17-01-19, 12:33
What are you talking about?

Your previous claim was not true as most of those did not have Y-DNA. None of the Balkan sites have more than 20 Y-DNA samples.

These new ones you brought, yes, they have do Y-DNA, although 13 of those are outside the Balkans. And, again, you did not count them right because there are 7 Js there, and you only found 2. I told you to check in Croatia and Greece for Js. I counted all Y-DNA samples from 5000 BC, because the population was almost entirely replaced after that, and J is 7 out of 20-22. Even if you count all time periods it is among the main haplogroups, so again, using your own method, your idea that it is new to the Balkans is completely wrong. It is actually among the oldest and most widespread ones since at least the Bronze Age.

This conclusion is also easily reached by looking at other data that I explained above.

gidai
17-01-19, 14:27
Your previous claim was not true as most of those did not have Y-DNA. None of the Balkan sites have more than 20 Y-DNA samples.

These new ones you brought, yes, they have do Y-DNA, although 13 of those are outside the Balkans. And, again, you did not count them right because there are 7 Js there, and you only found 2. I told you to check in Croatia and Greece for Js. I counted all Y-DNA samples from 5000 BC, because the population was almost entirely replaced after that, and J is 7 out of 20-22. Even if you count all time periods it is among the main haplogroups, so again, using your own method, your idea that it is new to the Balkans is completely wrong. It is actually among the oldest and most widespread ones since at least the Bronze Age.

This conclusion is also easily reached by looking at other data that I explained above.

I5234, I5235, I5236, I5237, I5238, I5239, I5240, I5241, I5242, I5244, I5409, Mesolithic, 9500-6200 BCE
I5235
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)
I5236
Y-DNA: I2a1
I5237
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)
I5240
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)

I4870, I4871, I4872, I4873, I4874, I4875, I4876, I4877, I4878, I4880, I4881, I4882, I5771, I5772, Mesolithic-Neolithic, 7100-5900 BCE
I4870
Y-DNA: I2
I4878
Y-DNA: I2a2a
I4880
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b2
I4881
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b2
I4882
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b
I5771
Y-DNA: I
I5772
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)

I4914, I4915, I4916, I4917, I5401, I5402, Mesolithic, 7300-6000 BCE
I4914
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b2
I4915
Y-DNA: I2a2
I4916
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1,xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)
I5401
Y-DNA: I2a2
I5402
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b

SC1_Meso, SC2_Meso, I4607, I5411, I5436, Mesolithic, 7000-6500 BC
SC1_Meso
Y-DNA: R
SC2_Meso
Y-DNA: R1
I4607
Y-DNA: I2
I5411
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)

I2423, I2424, I2430, Late Chalcolithic, 4545-4260 calBCE; I2175, I2176, Early Bronze Age, 3328-3015 calBCE
I2430
Y-DNA: R1b1a
I2175
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b1
I2176
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b

scy192, scy197, scy300, scy301, scy303, scy305, scy311, Scythian, 400 - 200 BCE
scy197:
Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2
scy301:
Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2
scy305:
Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2

I0706, I2521, Neolithic, 6300-5900 BCE
I0706
Y-DNA: C
I2521
Y-DNA: G2a2b2b1a

cim357, cim358, Chernogorovka(Cimmerian?), 950 - 800 BCE
cim357:
Y-DNA: R1b1a
cim358:
Y-DNA: Q1a1

I1889, I1895, I1896, Vinca, 5300-5000 BCE
I1889:
Y-DNA: G2a2a
I1896:
Y-DNA: G2a2b2a1a

OC1_Meso, I4582, I5408, Mesolithic, 7000-5000 calBCE
OC1_Meso
Y-DNA: R1b
I5408
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)

I0071, I0070, I0073, I0074, I9005, Minoan, 2000-1700 BCE
I0070:
Y-DNA: J2a1d
I0073:
Y-DNA: J2a1

I0698, I2529, Early Neolithic, 6000-5500 BCE
I0698
Y-DNA: G2a2a1a2a
I2529
Y-DNA: I2a2

I3433, I3947, I3948, Impresso, 6400-5500 BCE
I3947
Y-DNA: C1a2
I3948
Y-DNA: E1b1b1a1b1


I0634, I1131, Vinča, 4710-4460 calBCE
I0634
Y-DNA: G2a2a1a
I1131
Y-DNA: G2a2a1a

From sites with single Ydna remain:

I1889, I1895, I1896, Vinca, 5300-5000 BCE
I1889:
Y-DNA: G2a2a
I1896:
Y-DNA: G2a2b2a1a
I4331
Y-DNA: J2b2a
I5072
Y-DNA: G2a2a1
I0676
Y-DNA: G2a2b2b1
I9041:
Y-DNA: J2a1
Klei10:
Y-DNA: G2a2a1b
I1887:
Y-DNA: H2
I1880:
Y-DNA: G2a2b2b1a
I2165
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b1b
I2163
Y-DNA: R1a1a1b2
Bul6
Y-DNA: I2a2
Bul4
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b1b
I2520
Y-DNA: H2
I2510
Y-DNA: G2a2a1a2
I2431
Y-DNA: G2a2b2a1a1c1a
ANI159-ANI181
Y-DNA: G2a2b2b
I2532
Y-DNA: G2a2b2b
I4089
Y-DNA: C1a2a
I4081
Y-DNA: R1b1a
I5232
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)
Oase1
Y-DNA: F
I2792
Y-DNA: G2a2a1a2a
I0633
Y-DNA: G2a2a1
I3499
Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2a2
I5078
Y-DNA: J2a1
I5077
Y-DNA: G2a2a1
I3499
Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2a2
I3498
Y-DNA: C


Be clear what you've found, with data for those 20-22 YDNA from witch, you say, 7 are Js, from what time you want. I have found in the area 69 ancient YDNA discovered so far, from witch 4 are J2a and 1 J2b. 3 of its (60%) are from Creta and Peloponnes and other two from Croatia.
Maybe I am wrong. So... what are your data about your 20 remains with 7 Js YDNA?

Trojet
17-01-19, 14:52
Among the hundreds of YDNA listed here, https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1TYJrkLXUap0Ip-8EIeTH-uzN4V8&ll=45.49395456132537%2C24.025325085150826&z=6 there are only 2 or 3 J in Europe from ancient times.
Today's situation places Albanians closest to the South and Central Greeks from the perspective of YDNA, with almost identical percentages of J or E.


Region/Haplogroup
I1

I2a
I2b
R1a

R1b
G

J2 ▴
J1
E1b1b
T
Q
N
Sample size




















South Greece
1.5
9
1
10.5
20.5
3.5

19.5

1
27

4.5

0
0
https://www.eupedia.com/images/design/rate05.gif


Albania
2
12
1.5
9
16
1.5
19.5
2
27.5
1
0
0
https://www.eupedia.com/images/design/rate07.gif


Central Greece
3.5
7
3.5
11
11.5
6
19
3.5
29.5
5
0
0
https://www.eupedia.com/images/design/rate05.gif


These does not prove at all that J has been such a large component some 500 - 1000 or more years ago.
Probably J exploded very recently from south Balkans, and are now found all over Europe, even in Estonia, Sweden, Norway, Scotland or Latvia.

This thread was turning out to be quite informative in regards to J-L283 until you started posting this off topic nonsense.

I would ask a moderator to delete all the posts on this thread from user gidai, otherwise as a J-L283 researcher, I may not post any more news here in regards to this haplogroup.

gidai
17-01-19, 15:39
This thread was turning out to be quite informative in regards to J-L283 until you started posting this off topic nonsense.

I would ask a moderator to delete all the posts on this thread from user gidai, otherwise as a J-L283 researcher, I may not post any more news here in regards to this haplogroup.

... I do not understand! What are :thinking:disturbing about?!
There are not my inventions, there are only some data about past and recent time spread of haplogroups, published by researchers!

Ownstyler
17-01-19, 17:23
I would ask a moderator to delete all the posts on this thread from user gidai, otherwise as a J-L283 researcher, I may not post any more news here in regards to this haplogroup.

I agree with this suggestion. Please also delete my responses to him. We can to continue to debate how to count in private messages, without ruining a nice thread. Thank you.

gidai
17-01-19, 19:14
I agree with this suggestion. Please also delete my responses to him.
You were elusive in the discussion and you avoided answering... Apart from the 5 Js found by me, out of 69 in Balkans area, you say 7 out of 20!? Which are these 7 out of 20?

p.s. Balkans area is formed by: Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Greece, Kosovo, Republic of Macedonia, Montenegro, Romania, Rep. Moldova, Serbia, Slovenia and European Turkey.
Or something like this if you want.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Balkan_peninsula_line.jpg

Regio X
26-01-19, 14:39
Hi. Just figure out, based on father's matches in 23andMe, that a far ancestor of him must have belonged to J2b-L283. The somewhat curious fact is that this ancestor is thought to have been a cimbro, born in Altipiano di Asiago, Vicenza. He and his relatives migrated to Northern Treviso province in the beginning of XIX century, where my father's 2nd great-grandmother, a daughter, was born.

Sile
26-01-19, 18:34
Hi. Just figure out, based on father's matches in 23andMe, that a far ancestor of him must have belonged to J2b-L283. The somewhat curious fact is that this ancestor is thought to have been a cimbro, born in Altipiano di Asiago, Vicenza. He and his relatives migrated to Northern Treviso province in the beginning of XIX century, where my father's 2nd great-grandmother, a daughter, was born.
a lot of ex-venetians moved from Istria and Fiume ( rijeka ) to Asiago in the Istrian Exodus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istrian-Dalmatian_exodus
.
I know of at least 3 families ( non relatives )
.
I have 3 x Richter surname matches in 23andme ( could be brothers ) who are J2b2-L283 with mtdna of W3a1
I will get more info once they accept to share with me.....
more connected with a Bonatto family
The Richter family emigrated from the Austrian Tyrol to the
Parana State in Brazil approximately in 1876.
unknown the place in Tyrol ,on where was born Johannes Richter
This is the J-L283 family
one family in 2 places last 200 years .....Imst Tyrol and Fondo Val di Non Italy .............anything for you?

Regio X
27-01-19, 02:29
a lot of ex-venetians moved from Istria and Fiume ( rijeka ) to Asiago in the Istrian Exodus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istrian-Dalmatian_exodus
.
I know of at least 3 families ( non relatives )
.
I have 3 x Richter surname matches in 23andme ( could be brothers ) who are J2b2-L283 with mtdna of W3a1
I will get more info once they accept to share with me.....
more connected with a Bonatto family
The Richter family emigrated from the Austrian Tyrol to the
Parana State in Brazil approximately in 1876.
unknown the place in Tyrol ,on where was born Johannes Richter
This is the J-L283 family
one family in 2 places last 200 years .....Imst Tyrol and Fondo Val di Non ItalyThanks for the info.
I myself have Bonato in family, however, they were from province of Padova.


.............anything for you?What do you mean?

Regio X
27-01-19, 15:50
@Sile
From the link you shared:
"The term Istrian-Dalmatian exodus refers to the post-World War II expulsion and departure of ethnic Italians from the Yugoslav territory of Istria, as well as the cities of Zadar and Rijeka. "

Post-World War II... Ethnic Italians...

The cimbro I referred to was born around 1770, and migrated from the Altipiano di Asiago to North Treviso in 1808/1809, well before the World War II.

Wanderer
27-02-19, 22:16
Looks like I'm right or close to right. Phylographer estimates j-z600 occuring in italy at 3400 BC.

xz597 likely took an agean route toward sardinia. And corsica and went to Italy. Or went through the balkans into italy and early basal offshoots were bottlenecked in sardinia.
The first is more likely

Either way FSM touched -z597 with noodley appendage and was blessed
If you look at Y full majority of -z597 are in italy sardina. While Z585* is labeled Italy only.

Aspurg
01-05-19, 18:01
BTW regarding Romanian Basarab cluster J-Z631* that seems certainly related to Thaci-Korbi cluster: 8 of Basarab are from Sibiu, but 9th RU241 is from Gorj County. Considering he has a more distant haplotype (not sharing dys390 and dys635 with others) it seems these Basarab arrived to Sibiu from Gorj area that is from SW direction, further to the SW they also have relatives. Actually between Sibiu, Gorj and Thaci-Korbi location one could draw a straight line.:smile:

blevins13
01-05-19, 19:04
Or perhaps you can't read. This is what I wrote on the J2 page:

As a result, both the Illyrians and the Mycenaeans (and possibly the Albanians) would be descended from Middle to Late Bronze Age Steppe migrants to the Southeast Europe, in a migration that was particularly rich in J2b lineages from the Middle Volga region.

The Albanian (and Kosovar) population is one of the most homogeneous in Europe in term of shared recent ancestry according to Ralph & Coop 2013 (http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555). This means that the Albanians expanded from a very small population relatively recently, which explains why strong founder effects completely reshaped the Y-DNA frequencies. That is how E-V13 and J2b became to dominant among Albanians and Kosovars. That expansion probably took place during the Middle Ages, so based on the current data it is impossible to know whether E-V13 and J2b entered the Albanian gene pool during the Bronze Age, the Iron Age, the Classical Antiquity, or even the Middle Ages. Hence my reserve on the subject.

Hi Maciamo this very confusing so clarify please, in one place you say that:
R1a-The Greek branch
Little is known about the arrival of Proto-Greek speakers from the steppes. The Mycenaean culture commenced circa 1650 BCE and is clearly an imported steppe culture. The close relationship between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages suggest that they split fairly late, some time between 2500 and 2000 BCE. Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.

Here you say I think something different, since for Illyrians is generally accepted that they had kurgan culture with tumulus burials.....
So in your opinion do Illyrians and Mycenaean come form the same culture in different waves or from two different cultures?


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Piro Ilir
04-05-19, 18:13
Illyrians:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/156374751579734016/323965112153276417/1749036.png


I2a-Slav was somewhere in Ukraine-Belarus area.

Pripet marshes, was the best candidate for early Slavs

Piro Ilir
04-05-19, 18:25
Hi Maciamo this very confusing so clarify please, in one place you say that:
R1a-The Greek branch
Little is known about the arrival of Proto-Greek speakers from the steppes. The Mycenaean culture commenced circa 1650 BCE and is clearly an imported steppe culture. The close relationship between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages suggest that they split fairly late, some time between 2500 and 2000 BCE. Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.

Here you say I think something different, since for Illyrians is generally accepted that they had kurgan culture with tumulus burials.....
So in your opinion do Illyrians and Mycenaean come form the same culture in different waves or from two different cultures?


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I think he is very confusing. J2b2 found is old 1650 bce. Z2103 found is old 2725 bce. The best candidate for proto Illyrian would be the Z2103. J2b2 seems was attached later to the Illyrian Y-dna group.

Wanderer
25-05-19, 02:28
Is it probable that a phonecian route or western asian greek of J-Z600/J-z627 took place? Which is why they are offshoots in sardinia?

Dibran
25-05-19, 03:27
Is it probable that a phonecian route or western asian greek of J-Z600/J-z627 took place? Which is why they are offshoots in sardinia?

The problem is J2b-L283 was found in a Proto-Illyrian and it’s overwhelming concentration is in the Balkans. Moreso amongst Albanians. As far as I know, in the case of Greece much of the L283 is from later Middle Ages migrations from Albanians. Unless there’s some older Greek specific clades.

Yetos
25-05-19, 04:17
J2b of Adriatic is avery strange HG
it is isolated from the rest J2b pool,
yet has its own expand

Wanderer
25-05-19, 05:46
The problem is J2b-L283 was found in a Proto-Illyrian and it’s overwhelming concentration is in the Balkans. Moreso amongst Albanians. As far as I know, in the case of Greece much of the L283 is from later Middle Ages migrations from Albanians. Unless there’s some older Greek specific clades.

But the thing is those J-L283 clades are far down in the clade tree of Z585. And -z585 clades had to exist. They exist more often in sardinia. Carthagenians were exterminated , they werent many surviving carthaginians. There is a J-Z600 person with paternal origin from dominican republic. And one that is from Istanbul turkey but with a greek surname.
Remember Z585 diverges around 5400ybp.
Thats abot 3400bc.
So at 3400bc Z600 -585 was probably still in the caucus or anatolia region.
And bottlenecked in sardinia or Mediterranean island.

The samples of -z585 in sardinia aren't ancient samples.

Probably expanded sailed through and landed in sardinia as part of carthagenian expansion or western asian greek flight from conquest.
If z600 (-z585) was european we should see it more in european mainland but we don't. So z600 (-z585) had to come from western asia around 1000 bc.
.

Polska
25-05-19, 07:40
The L283 sample(s) found in Sardinia were from the Nuragic era which saw the arrival of the Bonannaro culture in Sardinia. The Bonannaro culture was from northern Italy/Central Europe. So the L283 in Sardinia likely came from continental Europe.

Wanderer
25-05-19, 08:34
The L283 sample(s) found in Sardinia were from the Nuragic era which saw the arrival of the Bonannaro culture in Sardinia. The Bonannaro culture was from northern Italy/Central Europe. So the L283 in Sardinia likely came from continental Europe.Nurahgic era is from 1800 BCE to 238 BCE

The first people in the adriatic sea were the carians who western asians.

8th century BC which is between 1800 and 238BC the phonecians and I qoute:

From the 8th century BC, Phoenicians founded several cities and strongholds on strategic points in the south and west of Sardinia, often peninsulas or islands near estuaries, easy to defend and natural harbours, such as Tharros, Bithia, Sulci, Noraand Caralis (Cagliari). The majority of the inhabitants in these cities were of indigenous nuragic stock while the Phoenician element was, although culturally predominant, in minority.[11][12] The Phoenicians came originally from what is now Lebanon and founded a vast trading network in the Mediterranean.

So you see, carthagenian /hypothesis still plausible. As J-Z600 -585 is not mainland european. And as there is a istanbul J-Z600 -Z585

Also Z585 split is 3400 bc. Over 1000 years apart from1800 BC from begining of nuraghic culture. So it makes no sense.

As Z600 -z585 is not really a mainland european haplo the only ancient sources are caucasians and georgians. And modern old worlders is sardinian and Istanbul.

Georgians are colchians. Herodotus states that colchians were decended from ancient egyptians.
But that does not necessarily mean j-z600 spread from egyptians. But a phonecian who had decended from colchians probably, or people of sardus if you believe nuraghic? Are actually hellens and berbers

Sardonian? Sardinia? Sardus? Sidonia? Sidon?

According to Sallust,[1] Sardus son of Hercules, left Libya along with a great multitude of men and occupied the island of Sardinia, which was so named after him. Later Pausanias confirms the story of Sallust and in the second century CE writes that Sardus was the son of Makeris (identifiable with Mecur / Macer, a Libyan name deriving from the Berber imɣur "to grow"), and that the island of Sardinia changed its name from Ichnusa to Sardinia in honor of Sardus.[2][3]

In AD 1855, the sarcophagus of King Eshmun’azar II was discovered. From a Phoenician inscription on its lid, it appears that he was a "king of the Sidonians," probably in the 5th century BC, and that his mother was a priestess of ‘Ashtart, "the goddess of the Sidonians."[3] In this inscription the gods Eshmun and Ba‘al Sidon 'Lord of Sidon' (who may or may not be the same) are mentioned as chief gods of the Sidonians. ‘Ashtart is entitled ‘Ashtart-Shem-Ba‘al '‘Ashtart the name of the Lord', a title also found in an Ugaritictext.




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Polska
25-05-19, 09:16
But do we really KNOW that the Sardinian was Z585? Could he belong to a branch further downstream? Did he have any Yamnaya ancestry? Or did he have an autosomal ancestry consistent with Phoenician ancestry?

Looking at YFull, every one of today’s members of Z585 is an Italian.

Wanderer
25-05-19, 09:22
But do we really KNOW that the Sardinian was Z585? Could he belong to a branch further downstream? Did he have any Yamnaya ancestry? Or did he have an autosomal ancestry consistent with Phoenician ancestry?

Looking at YFull, every one of today’s members of Z585 is an Italian.

The sardinian was -z585. We can see it in y full tree. They are under italy as cagliari.
He was not yamnaya because nuraghics came in at which was your claim, 1800bc.
And like I said z585 is 3400bc which is over 1000 years apart from the initial nuraghe. And autosomal dna can change in as simple as 3-4 generations. If they were from nuraghic it means they invaded yamnaya peoples and mixed their genetics. Haplogroup positions is more important than autosomal if people are mixing.
-z585 means they dont have z585 mutation.
Also we know that phonecians often hired mercenaries. So its plausible they hired colchians.

Wanderer
25-05-19, 09:45
Sidonia

This city was most likely ancient Asido, an Iberian settlement which may have been founded by the Phoenicians, hence the later name Sidonia reflecting its foundation by Sidon. Its earliest phase is known through its coinage and its 2nd and 1st centuries BC issues bear the Latin inscription Asido but also Punic inscriptions such as 'sdn or b'b'l, with Herakles and Dolphins being notable obverse and reverse designs.

Ernekar
25-05-19, 10:52
@wanderer

Forget these lunatic theories about ancient greeks or phoenecians.
J2b-L283 expanded in the bronze age 3000-2000 BC, so loooong before greeks or phoenecians existed.
On top of that, the nuragic samples showed steppe ancestry, just like every single J2b-L283 we have found in ancient DNA so far.
We have even found L283 north of the caucasus in ancient DNA.
So it has basically been known beyond any doubt for a couple of years now that this lineage spread with indo-european expansions in SE Europe. Specifically Italic and Albanian branch.

I know you would like to claim phoenecian ancestry, but I am afraid to tell you that you won't find it by looking at your Y-haplogroup.
If you are that obsessed, play with some autosomal calculators until you get some phoenecian ancestry in there ffs.

And stop spamming this thread with your damn nonsense theories kids

Wanderer
25-05-19, 11:05
@wanderer

Forget these lunatic theories. J2b-L283 expanded in the bronze age 3000-2000 BC, so loooong before greeks or phoenecians existed.
On top of that, the nuragic samples showed steppe ancestry, just like every single J2b-L283 we have found in ancient DNA so far. We have even found it north of the caucasus in ancient DNA. So it has been basically known beyond any doubt for a couple of years now that this lineage spread with indo-europeans.

I know you would like to claim phoenecian ancestry, but I am afraid to tell you that you won't find it by looking at your Y-haplogroup.
If you are that obsessed, play with some autosomal calculators until you get some phoenecian ancestry in there ffs.

And stop spamming this thread with your damn nonsense theories kids

No no no. +z585 expanded. As far as we know -z585 ineages were in georgia.
And than we find sardinian -z585 lineages much later on.
-z585 lineage was not european. It was still in western asia and the caucaus until about 1000bc or being generous 1800bc tops. Which is still relatively late compared To the expansion of +z585.
So it expanded into the medditerenean sea by some kind of invasion or migration because its in sardinia about 1200bc -700 bc
Also like I said, autosomal dna doesnt matter. You can have a nigerian with haplogroup I-L160 Doesnt mean I-L160 originated in Nigerian. You have to observe actual haplogroup placement and mutations.

Ernekar
25-05-19, 11:08
No no no. +z585 expanded. As far as we know -z585 ineages were in georgia.
And than we find sardinian -z585 lineages much later on.
-z585 lineage was not european. It was still in western asia and the caucaus until about 1000bc or being generous 1800bc tops. Which is still relatively late compared To the expansion of +z585.
So it expanded into the medditerenean sea by some kind of invasion or migration because its in sardinia about 1200bc -700 bc
But J2b-L283 was already in the western Balkans 1600 BC, so there goes your Georgian theory.

Wanderer
25-05-19, 11:13
But J2b-L283 was already in the western Balkans 1600 BC, so there goes your Georgian theory.Only +z585 were in the balkans. -z585 were still in georgia and western asia

Ever cared to wonder what subclade it was? It falls under z585.
-z585 was in west asia and the Caucasus

Wanderer
25-05-19, 11:17
Also I am one of the J z600 samples. I believe this because in my geneology search my ancestor decended possibly from a guy that was married in 1708 in dr ( moved to re union france and had my ancestor there maybe). The guy married in 1708, his father is from tarifa cadiz. But the next 2 fathers above him are from sidonia spain.
He has a son that has the same name as my ancestor but in french. So i believe its him and is born in a year that is reasonable range. The guy married in1708. Lets call him Bob. Bob moved to la re union france, married a french woman. In crnsus records they had some slave names also listed. And I think they were involved in slavery unfortunately. Theres a record of a slave with the same name as my ancestor, is the slave of of a owner of the same exact name. Both slave and owner had same name ( dominican record). The slave marries a different woman. thats how I know its not mine. Mine is also a free man in the record. And than mine has a kid 4-5 years later. But in DR theres not many people with the same surname as its a very rare surname in DR except in place in 1 or 2 places in DR. But around 1650 -1740 its almost non existant in records. Extremely rare. And a rare surname in latin america. My ancestor has no tracable marriage record in DR church records for santa maria de la encarnacion. But in that same church, his first childs record, they were already married.

Ernekar
25-05-19, 11:21
Only +z585 were in the balkans. -z585 were still in georgia and western asia
No, even earlier clades than z585 were present in Italy.
On Y-full we have all the early clades of L283 in Sardinia.

And i have explained it many times before, the reason that we see ALL, as in every single one, of J2b-L283 subclades in Sardinia is due to their isolation and oversampling of that island.

In the bronze age there was an arch going from Sardinia, up to the Po valley, Istria and all the way down both sides of the adriatic, where J2b-L283 was present and were a part the spread of Italic and Illyric branches of Indo-European.

In most places, this arch has been subject to a lot of gene flow since the bronze age, so therefore we only see low percentages of J2b-L283 there today. But somehow Sardinia and Albania managed to stay isolated enough since the bronze age, and therefore they still have the most basal clades of J2b-L283 along with Albanian in mountainous areas having up to 30% J2b-L283 among them.

Wanderer
25-05-19, 11:30
No, even earlier clades than z585 were present in Italy.
On Y-full we have all the early clades of L283 in Sardinia.

And i have explained it many times before, the reason that we see ALL, as in every single one, of J2b-L283 subclades in Sardinia is due to their isolation and oversampling of that island.

In the bronze age there was an arch going from Sardinia, up to the Po valley, Istria and all the way down both sides of the adriatic, where J2b-L283 was present and were a part the spread of Italic and Illyric branches of Indo-European.

In most places, this arch has been subject to a lot of gene flow since the bronze age, so therefore we only see low percentages of J2b-L283 there today. But somehow Sardinia and Albania managed to stay isolated enough since the bronze age, and therefore they still have the most basal clades of J2b-L283 along with Albanian in mountainous areas having up to 30% J2b-L283 among them.

Those clades earlier than z585 are considered -z585. The minus means its negative for z585. Z585 means its z585 and down that branch.
The ones above z585 are the western asian / caucasian decended samples.
+z585 left western asia into europe. -z585 stayed in west asia until late. Some migrated late under phonecians and carthagenians.
-z585 are completely different from europeans and the rest. Its obvious its not really european. It migrated very late after neolithic algriculture. Came into Europe in late bronze age 1000bc but was wiped off.

Ernekar
25-05-19, 11:35
Those clades earlier than z585 are considered -z585. The minus means its negative for z585. Z585 means its z585 and down that branch.
The ones above z585 are the western asian / caucasian decended samples.
Nope, the ones above are J-YP157 and J-YP29. Both of them are found mostly/only in Sardinia.