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bicicleur
09-06-17, 19:50
Mathieson 2107 :

Appendix A: The Iron Gates region has a more-or-less continuous record of Stone Age settlement from c.12700–5500 cal BCE , and over 400 Mesolithic and Early Neolithic burials have beenrecorded from 15 sites.

The mesolithic Iron Gate Y-DNA found are I2a1, I2a2a(1b2) and R1b1a-L754xL388.
Autosomal they were 87 % WHG and 13 % EHG, no signs of Anatolian EEF or Transcaucasian CHG.

R1b1a-L754xL388 leaves open 3 options for the descendants of these Iron Gate HG : https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L754/

- R1b-L754*
- R1b-V88
- all gone extinct

TMRCA of R1b-V88 is 11.7 ka, 3000 years after arrival of first mesolithic HG in the Iron Gates

The oldest anciant R1b-V88 DNA we have :

- Khvalynsk 7.2-6 ka R1b1-L278, possibly pré-V88
He was mainly EHG, but possesed also some substantial CHG and a little WHG.
He very likely came from south of the Caucasus.

- Els Trocs herders, 7.1 ka, R1b-V88.
Mainly EEF with some WHG, so he probably got there with the Cardial Ware people.

https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/8urzylw1c01087aj/images/6-9231a68ec9.jpg

early neolithic Iberia
with dating table I here :
https://www.academia.edu/673004/Early_Neolithic_agriculture_in_the_Iberian_peninsu la
There are several subclades of R1b-V88 in Sardegna, some of them likely got there with Cardial Ware.

Furthermore the Chadic R1b-V88 herders are supposed to have entered Africa through the Levant betwwen 8 ka and 5.5 ka.


Mathieson 2017 notes that the Iron Gates hunter-gatherers268 carry mitochondrial haplogroups K1 (8/36) as well as other subclades of haplogroup U269 (27/36) and haplogroup H (1/36). This contrasts with WHG, EHG and Scandinavian hunter-270 gatherers who almost all carry haplogroup U5 or U2. Therefore the Iron Gates hunter-271 gatherers have ancestry that is not present in WHG or EHG. This suggests either genetic272 contact between the ancestors of the Iron Gates population and hunter-gatherers from273 Anatolia, or that the Iron Gates population is related to the source population from which the274 WHG split off during a post-LGM re-expansion into Europe.

So, is it possible that one man, R1b-V88 or pré-R1b-V88 got from the Iron Gates into Anatolia and there became the founding father of R1b-V88?
What alternative origins for R1b-V88 could there be?

Sile
09-06-17, 20:51
Mathieson 2107 :

Appendix A: The Iron Gates region has a more-or-less continuous record of Stone Age settlement from c.12700–5500 cal BCE , and over 400 Mesolithic and Early Neolithic burials have beenrecorded from 15 sites.

The mesolithic Iron Gate Y-DNA found are I2a1, I2a2a(1b2) and R1b1a-L754xL388.
Autosomal they were 87 % WHG and 13 % EHG, no signs of Anatolian EEF or Transcaucasian CHG.

R1b1a-L754xL388 leaves open 3 options for the descendants of these Iron Gate HG : https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L754/

- R1b-L754*
- R1b-V88
- all gone extinct

TMRCA of R1b-V88 is 11.7 ka, 3000 years after arrival of first mesolithic HG in the Iron Gates

The oldest anciant R1b-V88 DNA we have :

- Khvalynsk 7.2-6 ka R1b1-L278, possibly pré-V88
He was mainly EHG, but possesed also some substantial CHG and a little WHG.
He very likely came from south of the Caucasus.

- Els Trocs herders, 7.1 ka, R1b-V88.
Mainly EEF with some WHG, so he probably got there with the Cardial Ware people.

https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/8urzylw1c01087aj/images/6-9231a68ec9.jpg

early neolithic Iberia
with dating table I here :
https://www.academia.edu/673004/Early_Neolithic_agriculture_in_the_Iberian_peninsu la
There are several subclades of R1b-V88 in Sardegna, some of them likely got there with Cardial Ware.

Furthermore the Chadic R1b-V88 herders are supposed to have entered Africa through the Levant betwwen 8 ka and 5.5 ka.


Mathieson 2017 notes that the Iron Gates hunter-gatherers268 carry mitochondrial haplogroups K1 (8/36) as well as other subclades of haplogroup U269 (27/36) and haplogroup H (1/36). This contrasts with WHG, EHG and Scandinavian hunter-270 gatherers who almost all carry haplogroup U5 or U2. Therefore the Iron Gates hunter-271 gatherers have ancestry that is not present in WHG or EHG. This suggests either genetic272 contact between the ancestors of the Iron Gates population and hunter-gatherers from273 Anatolia, or that the Iron Gates population is related to the source population from which the274 WHG split off during a post-LGM re-expansion into Europe.

So, is it possible that one man, R1b-V88 or pré-R1b-V88 got from the Iron Gates into Anatolia and there became the founding father of R1b-V88?
What alternative origins for R1b-V88 could there be?

R1b-V88 is recorded as entering the northern levant 9000 years ago and reaching egypt 7000 years ago .............is the marker pontic or western black sea ?

Cip
10-06-17, 10:13
Intresting that mt haplogroup U6 also originated in the same region. Oldest U6 sample was from ''Pestera Muierilor'' Romania

Garrick
10-06-17, 11:21
Mathieson 2107 :

Appendix A: The Iron Gates region has a more-or-less continuous record of Stone Age settlement from c.12700–5500 cal BCE , and over 400 Mesolithic and Early Neolithic burials have beenrecorded from 15 sites.

The mesolithic Iron Gate Y-DNA found are I2a1, I2a2a(1b2) and R1b1a-L754xL388.
Autosomal they were 87 % WHG and 13 % EHG, no signs of Anatolian EEF or Transcaucasian CHG.

R1b1a-L754xL388 leaves open 3 options for the descendants of these Iron Gate HG : https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L754/

- R1b-L754*
- R1b-V88
- all gone extinct

TMRCA of R1b-V88 is 11.7 ka, 3000 years after arrival of first mesolithic HG in the Iron Gates

The oldest anciant R1b-V88 DNA we have :

- Khvalynsk 7.2-6 ka R1b1-L278, possibly pré-V88
He was mainly EHG, but possesed also some substantial CHG and a little WHG.
He very likely came from south of the Caucasus.

- Els Trocs herders, 7.1 ka, R1b-V88.
Mainly EEF with some WHG, so he probably got there with the Cardial Ware people.

https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/8urzylw1c01087aj/images/6-9231a68ec9.jpg

early neolithic Iberia
with dating table I here :
https://www.academia.edu/673004/Early_Neolithic_agriculture_in_the_Iberian_peninsu la
There are several subclades of R1b-V88 in Sardegna, some of them likely got there with Cardial Ware.

Furthermore the Chadic R1b-V88 herders are supposed to have entered Africa through the Levant betwwen 8 ka and 5.5 ka.


Mathieson 2017 notes that the Iron Gates hunter-gatherers268 carry mitochondrial haplogroups K1 (8/36) as well as other subclades of haplogroup U269 (27/36) and haplogroup H (1/36). This contrasts with WHG, EHG and Scandinavian hunter-270 gatherers who almost all carry haplogroup U5 or U2. Therefore the Iron Gates hunter-271 gatherers have ancestry that is not present in WHG or EHG. This suggests either genetic272 contact between the ancestors of the Iron Gates population and hunter-gatherers from273 Anatolia, or that the Iron Gates population is related to the source population from which the274 WHG split off during a post-LGM re-expansion into Europe.

So, is it possible that one man, R1b-V88 or pré-R1b-V88 got from the Iron Gates into Anatolia and there became the founding father of R1b-V88?
What alternative origins for R1b-V88 could there be?

In Serbia in culture of Lepen Whirl, R1b1a-L754 is found at the more locations and epochs. The oldest one is found at Padina: 9221-8548 BC, and the youngest at Padina too: 6061-5841 BC.

I suppose that samples R1b1a-L754 in Serbia (in period about 3000 years) are all V88.

It is very interesting this population was for a long time in these areas.

bicicleur
10-06-17, 12:09
they had a very intriguing culture and lifestyle

Fatherland
10-06-17, 13:42
Migration from the northeast. R1b and R1a in general are young haplogroups, so they diversified rather recently.

MarkoZ
10-06-17, 14:57
It would be difficult to imagine that a Mesolithic population in the Balkans learnt agriculture and migrated to Africa in time. The culturally developed Mesolithic groups in Europe did not readily adopt agriculture until the terminal Neolithic.


A more interesting possibilty would be a common source of Lepenski Vir and those Africans closer to the fertile crescent.

bicicleur
10-06-17, 20:59
it is not about a whole population, it is about 1 single man, the founding fater of R1b-V88

furthermore the genetic evidence demonstrates more and more that the HG could maintain themselves very well in the settled farming societies
maybe they even had an advantage over the farmers, they were more mobile and more versatile than the farmers
upto the chalcolithic the weight of WHG kept growing





Estimated propotion




Pop
WHG
AN


Peloponnese_Neolithic
0,5%
99,5%


Balkans_Neolithic
1,9%
98,1%


LBK_EN
4,9%
95,1%


Balkans_Combined
5,1%
94,9%


LBK_Austria
6,3%
93,7%


Balkans_Chalcolithic
6,8%
93,2%


Iberia_EN
8,1%
91,9%


Central_Combined
11,0%
89,0%


Varna
11,6%
88,4%


Trypillia
13,4%
86,6%


Malak_Preslavets
15,7%
84,3%


Central_MN
18,0%
82,0%


Iberia_Combined
19,9%
80,1%


Iberia_MN
22,5%
77,5%


Globular_Amphora
24,7%
75,3%


Iberia_Chalcolithic
26,4%
73,6%



during the chalcolithic maybe they were better in finding ores and organizing transport and trade than the settled farmers who had become immobalised in their settlements

also in the Iron Gate itself, they created a unique culture, trading goods with the Aegean, they certainly weren't overwhelmed by the farmers
I think many farmers envied their lifestyle

as for the low WHG % in the Balkans, keep in mind that the Balkans were depopulated during the mesolithic, the farmers there settled in empty land

as for the LBK, keep in mind that most of the LBK farmers just farmed, they didn't hunt or fish themselves and they occupied only a very small proportion of the land, only the most fertile and ligth land to work on, they were not able to farm other lands, which left much hunting and fishing grounds open for the original HG

this is a map of soils in Saxony, Germany :

8824

only the brown parts are löss grounds, that are the only parts the LBK people could work on
all the other land remained HG land

LeBrok
10-06-17, 21:18
It would be difficult to imagine that a Mesolithic population in the Balkans learnt agriculture and migrated to Africa in time. The culturally developed Mesolithic groups in Europe did not readily adopt agriculture until the terminal Neolithic.


A more interesting possibilty would be a common source of Lepenski Vir and those Africans closer to the fertile crescent. Good point. Let's keep in mind that explosion and migration of R1a and R1b happened in Neolithic when they have mixed with farmers and became farmers themselves. In case of V88, it needed to be in farmers/herders communities by Neolithic in Europe, in order to expand in numbers and migrate to Africa. Through all the other ethnic groups and civilizations on their way to Africa. So far we didn't find V88 in European Neolithic.

Sile
10-06-17, 21:24
as for the LBK, keep in mind that most the LBK farmers just farmed, they didn't hunt or fish and they occupied only a very small proportion of the land, only the most fertile and ligth land to work on, they were not able to farm other lands, which left much hunting and fishing grounds open for the original HG

very strange theory .............so proto-farmers did nothing? ...........wrong

so LBK farmers where EEF only and where nothing before this? ...........wrong

So LBK where not potters, I think all farmers still hunted , herded and potted .............one would have to be naive if one thought otherwise

bicicleur
10-06-17, 21:27
very strange theory .............so proto-farmers did nothing? ...........wrong

so LBK farmers where EEF only and where nothing before this? ...........wrong

So LBK where not potters, I think all farmers still hunted , herded and potted .............one would have to be naive if one thought otherwise

it is what archeology showed
in many areas the LBK farmers didn't consume game or fish, just their own vegetables, dairy products and meat of domesticates

Angela
10-06-17, 21:28
It's not like you to engage in so much conjecture and speculation, Bicicleur.

How the heck can you possibly know the following:
"during the chalcolithic maybe they were better in finding ores and organizing transport and trade than the settled farmers who had become immobalised in their settlements"

As for the amount of WHG, it took 2,000 years for the EEF to decide to mate with them. We don't really know why some primarily I2a2 men were adopted into their cultures at some point. As Jean Manco pointed out a few years ago, it's quite possible that as the climate worsened in the north there was a gradual movement south into farmer lands.

As for there being few EEF people, everything we've learned about population growth absolutely contradicts that, including the areas which they settled.

This is LBK alone:
https://thesebonesofmine.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/lbkspreadd.jpg

The only places where there were remaining large groups of hunter gatherers were near big waterways and near the Sea, as in the far northeast. It's not a coincidence that the modern people with the highest percentages of WHG are from that area. There was also a reservoir of them, I believe to the east, partially mixed with EHG, because the farmers never penetrated there. Where the farmers did penetrate, they were either absorbed or marginalized, as was the case in the New World. The Iron Gates community totally disappeared relatively quickly.

Those are also vast generalizations about LBK. Some communities, and more as time went by did indeed practice hunting and fishing to supplement resources.

bicicleur
10-06-17, 21:30
Good point. Let's keep in mind that explosion and migration of R1a and R1b happened in Neolithic when they have mixed with farmers and became farmers themselves. In case of V88, it needed to be in farmers/herders communities by Neolithic in Europe, in order to expand in numbers and migrate to Africa. Through all the other ethnic groups and civilizations on their way to Africa. So far we didn't find V88 in European Neolithic.

again, I am not talking about a whole population, I am talking about 1 single man, the founding father of R1b-V88, dated 11.7 ka
he could have sneaked into Anatolia by then, from the Iron gates
11.7 ka Anatolia was still HG territory

Angela
10-06-17, 21:31
again, I am not talking about a whole population, I am talking about 1 single man, the founding father of R1b-V88, dated 11.7 ka
he could have sneaked into Anatolia by then, from the Iron gates
11.7 ka Anatolia was still HG territory

Or R1b-V88 was in Anatolia and in different periods moved into Europe.

bicicleur
10-06-17, 21:34
It's not like you to engage in so much conjecture and speculation, Bicicleur.

How the heck can you possibly know the following:
"during the chalcolithic maybe they were better in finding ores and organizing transport and trade than the settled farmers who had become immobalised in their settlements"

As for the amount of WHG, it took 2,000 years for the EEF to decide to mate with them. We don't really know why some primarily I2a2 men were adopted into their cultures at some point. As Jean Manco pointed out a few years ago, it's quite possible that as the climate worsened in the north there was a gradual movement south into farmer lands.

As for there being few EEF people, everything we've learned about population growth absolutely contradicts that, including the areas which they settled.

This is LBK alone:
https://thesebonesofmine.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/lbkspreadd.jpg

The only places where there were remaining large groups of hunter gatherers were near big waterways and near the Sea, as in the far northeast. It's not a coincidence that the modern people with the highest percentages of WHG are from that area. There was also a reservoir of them, I believe to the east, partially mixed with EHG, because the farmers never penetrated there. Where the farmers did penetrate, they were either absorbed or assimilated. The Iron Gates community totally disappeared relatively quickly.

Those are also vast generalizations about LBK. Some communities, and more as time went by did indeed practice hunting and fishing to supplement resources.


this is a map of soils in Saxony, Germany :

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8824&d=1497122598&thumb=1 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8824&d=1497122598)

only the brown and some of the pink parts are löss grounds, that are the only parts the LBK people could work on
all the other land remained HG land

the situation has been studied in Blätterhöhle and Ostorf

why, after a few centuries some of the LBK tribes were fighting each other, even when there was still plenty of space in between?
maybe they ran out of good soils they could cultivate

as for your theory of climate change and HG coming in from the north, I don't think it can explain the growing weight of HG in Iberia

how do you explain the neolithic in the British Isles without G2a2, only I2 ?

another map of Löss soils in Europe

8825
the area with Löss soil is bounded to the north by the places that were covered with glaciars and polar desert (permafrost) during LGM, but even within the Löss soil area, there was more space without Löss deposit than soil with

LeBrok
10-06-17, 21:39
I think many farmers envied their lifestyle

Seems like you are extrapolating your personal feelings on Neolithic Farmers. I'd say, on occasions farmers behaved like hunter-gatherer. Sometimes they did a bit of hunting and fishing, and sometimes they picked berries and mushrooms.

bicicleur
10-06-17, 21:44
Seems like you are extrapolating your personal feelings on Neolithic Farmers. I'd say, on occasions farmers behaved like hunter-gatherer. Sometimes they did a bit of hunting and fishing, and sometimes they picked berries and mushrooms.

the Iron Gate is a particular case with a special ecological niche
it was so rich in fish, it was heaven for fishers and hunters
their life was much easier than the farmers life

google and check 'Lepenski Vir'

LeBrok
10-06-17, 21:48
the Iron Gate is a particular case with a special ecological niche
it was so rich in fish, it was heaven for fishers and hunters
their life was much easier than the farmers life Live in a tent through winter, surrounded by wild animal, and eat only fish from the river, and say it again next year. I would rather stay in the safety of the village, dressed in linen clothes, eating bread, pork, eggs and drinking milk (as kid), attend dances and listen to music.

bicicleur
10-06-17, 21:54
Live in a tent through winter, surrounded by wild animal, and eat only fish from the river, and say it again next year. I would rather stay in the safety of the village, dressed in linen clothes, eating bread, pork, eggs and drinking milk (as kid), attend dances and listen to music.

they didn't live in tents, they had huts with plastered floors and a hearth
furthermore they got shells from the Aegean by trade
if they wanted cereals, the certainly could get this from trade as well
and the forests were rich in berries and nuts

again, check 'Lepenski Vir' before you comment on this

oh, and watch this :

8826

do you think her life was fun?

bicicleur
10-06-17, 22:18
again, we're getting drawn away here
I intended this thread about 1 single man, 11.7 ka the founding father of R1b-V88
that was way before farming in Europe, even before farming in Anatolia

bicicleur
10-06-17, 22:23
Or R1b-V88 was in Anatolia and in different periods moved into Europe.

yes, maybe, but the Iron Gate population was not substantially admixed with EEF or CHG

R1b-V88 may have originated elsewhere alltogether, but no other DNA has been sampled uptill now that is likely to be ancestral to R1b-V88

I just started this thread to discuss the possibility that R1b-V88 may have originated in another place than was anticipated by almost everyone uptill now, when this Iron Gate DNA has been published

Angela
10-06-17, 22:32
The farmers envied hunter-gatherers? Where do we ever see that in those areas of the world where people from those two subsistence groups live in close contact?

Now we have crystal balls to look into the hearts and minds of ancient peoples? If we're going to impose our own feelings on ancient people I'm with LeBrok. I've been camping. It's fun for a week or so and then that's enough. Not even all men want to live in the wild. I could never get my husband to go on a single camping trip. Heck, he wouldn't even go on a beach vacation if the hotel or "bagno" didn't have a bar or at least bar service on the beach. He used to say it was uncivilized. :)

Maybe it is women, though, who pushed so hard for farming. :) I've read quite a bit about hunter-gatherers. The men do indeed seem to be lazy buggers. They do the hunting and fishing yes, not very dangerous when you're hunting deer and fishing with nets, they also throw those spears around at men from other groups if they try to poach either the women or the wildlife, and the rest of the time they seem to lie around telling stories. The women are always working because that work is endless: in addition to childbirth and rearing, and cleaning up, and cooking, they do the gathering, the making of the clothes, and probably the drying of the fish and the maintaining of the shelters, and later on the making of ceramics. Not, of course, that farmer women didn't also work very hard, but at least the men had to work too.

Then there's the fact that hunter-gathering as a lifestyle leads no where in terms of cultural evolution.

The Iron Gate people disappeared. They were either absorbed or they left.

I know about loess soils, Bicicleur, but you're conflating the very early periods with the continued expansion over 2,000 years. The conflict also is probably tied to climate change. If the farmers were hurting so would any hg people left who wanted to trade with them. In Iberia, they had probably hidden out in the mountains, as invaded peoples always do.

bicicleur
10-06-17, 22:47
I didn't say HG were better of than farmers, I said it only for the Iron Gate.
They didn't live in tents and had plenty of food.
And I'm not sure their lifestyle didn't lead to nowhere in terms of cultural evolution.
It looks like there was.
But indeed finaly they got absorbed.
It looks like the place got overcrowded.

The LBK farmers were confined to Löss soils, not later farmers.
But that may be the reason the HG were not overwhelmed.
It gave some of them the time to adapt somehow, but without having to copy the lifestyle of the LBK farmers.
I'm sure those HG who didn't adapt in some way or another didn't survive in the end, but that goes for the LBK farmers too.
Both had to find improved ways to survive in the long run.
But the sucessful HG did it from another stance than the succesful farmers.
And we see the weight of HG increase all the time.

As for Iberia, I don't think all HG were hidden in the mountains.
As I mentioned in another thread, the megaliths in Evora allready existed before Carded Ware and it looks like the megalithic farmers in Iberia were very rich in WHG DNA (both Y and mt).

Maybe you're right about the women.
Being HG looks more fun than being farmer for a man, but not for a woman. ;-)

Cip
10-06-17, 22:52
There was a study on the bones of the Iron Gates older hunters and newer farmers. The hunter-gatherers were much better fed than farmers. From the teeth analysis was discovered that the period of breastfeeding was longer so the general health was better. They had good teeth, unlike farmers who had a lot of dental caries.
Is a very rich area not only in fish, but also in many other resources. They lived in pretty sophisticated communities, they also had a form of religion, a lot of free time, a pretty good life.

LeBrok
11-06-17, 00:42
There was a study on the bones of the Iron Gates older hunters and newer farmers. The hunter-gatherers were much better fed than farmers. From the teeth analysis was discovered that the period of breastfeeding was longer so the general health was better. They had good teeth, unlike farmers who had a lot of dental caries.
Is a very rich area not only in fish, but also in many other resources. They lived in pretty sophisticated communities, they also had a form of religion, a lot of free time, a pretty good life.
So, any idea why h-gs and their culture vanished, and farmers survived, multiplied and farming continued since, till today in this particular area? Shouldn't it been in reverse if hunters where healthier, bigger and stronger and had more food to feed their offspring?

LeBrok
11-06-17, 00:44
I didn't say HG were better of than farmers, I said it only for the Iron Gate.
They didn't live in tents and had plenty of food.
And I'm not sure their lifestyle didn't lead to nowhere in terms of cultural evolution.
It looks like there was.
But indeed finaly they got absorbed.
It looks like the place got overcrowded.
By hungry, smaller, weak, sick, malnourished farmers? Something doesn't make sense.

MarkoZ
11-06-17, 11:24
So, any idea why h-gs and their culture vanished, and farmers survived, multiplied and farming continued since, till today in this particular area? Shouldn't it been in reverse if hunters where healthier, bigger and stronger and had more food to feed their offspring?

I had been wondering about this apparent contradiction for a while and it seems my faulty understanding of the agricultural revolution led me to all kinds of wrong conclusions. Evidence is accumulating that Flannerty's broad spectrum revolution hypothesis accurately predicted that an increase of dietary breadth due to the culling of large game populations preceded the neolithic. Levantine hunter-gatherers began to exploit various wild cereal sources as well as unlikely animal sources like rodents, frogs, shellfish that were extremely difficult to hunt. As the population increased, the adoption of agriculture became a matter of life or death.

European Mesolithic societies did not yet face such dire circumstances and likely did not anticipate the future developmental potentional of primitive agriculture. In summary, European hunters were well-fed but stagnant while agriculturists were malnourished and dynamic. Hence West Asia became a population-pump and Europe did not. That's also why it makes little sense to look for an European origin of those Neolithic haplogroups.

LeBrok
11-06-17, 14:12
I had been wondering about this apparent contradiction for a while and it seems my faulty understanding of the agricultural revolution led me to all kinds of wrong conclusions. Evidence is accumulating that Flannerty's broad spectrum revolution hypothesis accurately predicted that an increase of dietary breadth due to the culling of large game populations preceded the neolithic. Levantine hunter-gatherers began to exploit various wild cereal sources as well as unlikely animal sources like rodents, frogs, shellfish that were extremely difficult to hunt. As the population increased, the adoption of agriculture became a matter of life or death.

European Mesolithic societies did not yet face such dire circumstances and likely did not anticipate the future developmental potentional of primitive agriculture. In summary, European hunters were well-fed but stagnant while agriculturists were malnourished and dynamic. Hence West Asia became a population-pump and Europe did not. That's also why it makes little sense to look for an European origin of those Neolithic haplogroups.We can give words interesting meaning but till we can explain it in numbers we won't get to the bottom of it. I see this issue as a function of offspring survival. Let's say that h-gs and farmers were promiscuous on same level. Meaning that they had sex about same amount of times and same amount of kids were being born. Also, it is safe to assume that no group used any population control methods, like birth control pills. ;) So far, things being equal.
The only difference had to be in survival of kids. Was it safety of the village, better hygiene or food production, higher GDP? One thing is certain. Farming societies had more kids surviving into adulthood, therefore faster population growth.

MarkoZ
11-06-17, 14:50
We can give words interesting meaning but till we can explain it in numbers we won't get to the bottom of it. I see this issue as a function of offspring survival. Let's say that h-gs and farmers were promiscuous on same level. Meaning that they had sex about same amount of times and same amount of kids were being born. Also, it is safe to assume that no group used any population control methods, like birth control pills. ;) So far, things being equal.
The only difference had to be in survival of kids. Was it safety of the village, better hygiene or food production, higher GDP? One thing is certain. Farming societies had more kids surviving into adulthood, therefore faster population growth.

Hunter-Gatherer population density cannot be anything but small. The argument about the bad physical shape of early peasants is about the unhealthiness of their diets. They had the benefit of an entirely novel mode of subsistence which supports far more people per km^2 so of course they'd outnumber Mesolithic people.

bicicleur
11-06-17, 15:34
Hunter-Gatherer population density cannot be anything but small. The argument about the bad physical shape of early peasants is about the unhealthiness of their diets. They had the benefit of an entirely novel mode of subsistence which supports far more people per km^2 so of course they'd outnumber Mesolithic people.

indeed, it is not because the farmers could survive in bigger numbers that they had a better life, and certainly not a more interesting one
their life was as monotonous as their diet

LeBrok
11-06-17, 17:34
indeed, it is not because the farmers could survive in bigger numbers that they had a better life, and certainly not a more interesting one
their life was as monotonous as their diet Again you assume that people don't like monotonous lifestyle. I don't, you don't, and many don't, but I know more people who love their scheduled, same, organized, monotonous jobs, and stable lives, and being happy in their predictable and repetitive world, than not. I know more people being afraid of unknown and adventures, than people who crave these. The unknown and unpredictable scares most people. Especially farmers.

bicicleur
11-06-17, 17:46
Again you assume that people don't like monotonous lifestyle. I don't, you don't, and many don't, but I know more people who love their scheduled, same, organized, monotonous jobs, and stable lives, and being happy in their predictable and repetitive world, than not. I know more people being afraid of unknown and adventures, than people who crave these. The unknown and unpredictable scares most people. Especially farmers.

what's your point?

Angela
11-06-17, 18:15
I had been wondering about this apparent contradiction for a while and it seems my faulty understanding of the agricultural revolution led me to all kinds of wrong conclusions. Evidence is accumulating that Flannerty's broad spectrum revolution hypothesis accurately predicted that an increase of dietary breadth due to the culling of large game populations preceded the neolithic. Levantine hunter-gatherers began to exploit various wild cereal sources as well as unlikely animal sources like rodents, frogs, shellfish that were extremely difficult to hunt. As the population increased, the adoption of agriculture became a matter of life or death.

European Mesolithic societies did not yet face such dire circumstances and likely did not anticipate the future developmental potentional of primitive agriculture. In summary, European hunters were well-fed but stagnant while agriculturists were malnourished and dynamic. Hence West Asia became a population-pump and Europe did not. That's also why it makes little sense to look for an European origin of those Neolithic haplogroups.

I agree with much of this, but I also think it very much depends on which farmers you're discussing. It very much depends on the area and the time period. Of course, if the rains fail, if there's a flood, if there's an infestation of locusts, if they've just worn out the soil because they don't yet understand how to replenish it, the farmers are going to suffer from malnutrition. When things are going well, they're not, particularly the groups who also incorporated some fishing and hunting, as some did. The farmers whom the steppe people encountered had just gone through a period of climate change and failing crops. Of course they were malnourished. Does anyone think the people of the advanced Chalcolithic civilizations of the Balkans, creating these large towns, elaborate houses, magnificent pottery and copper ornaments were falling over from malnutrition for most of their history?

Then, just look at this logically. If hunter-gathering was so optimal and they were so well fed, and farming was not and they were not, why did farming cultures produce so many more offspring who survived to reproduce than did the hunter-gatherers? It's obviously because there were fewer resources. Now, whether the children died of starvation, or they were deliberately killed to keep numbers low, I don't know, but as LeBrok mentioned, they did not have birth control.

I also don't get this they weren't adventurous stuff. They spread all over Europe, North Africa, the Near East, India, and down into deepest Africa. That seems pretty adventurous to me. Of course, needs must.

Also, by the time the Neolithic farmers arrived, the Mesolithic people of Europe were sedentary, don't forget. We're not talking about Mammoth hunters. Again, there's all this conflation of time periods. Those Iron Gates people were tied to that fishing area. The hg people of the far northeast were tied to the Baltic shore lines. The hunter gatherers of western North Africa were tied to a particular area because that's where all the hazel nut trees were located.

There is no question the population of Mesolithic people of Europe was small. You just need too much territory to support such a lifestyle for it to be any different.

I've posted this before, but it bears repeating:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQtzwoOYrkE

LeBrok
11-06-17, 20:02
what's your point?
You base your hypothesis on assumptions and personal feelings. This will lead you astray.

bicicleur
11-06-17, 20:28
by 15 ka when climate became optimal and forests were growing, HG became sedentary all over the world
population had regrown after LGM and every rich hunting and fishing ground became ocupied
the only posibility to expand the population further was diversification
it happened in Europe were they burned forest land to attract deer and to increase the growth of hazel for their nuts and where they produced fish traps on an almost industrial scale
it happened south of the Yangzi river where they started to collect rice
it even happened in Sundaland where for the first time HG started to explore the dense forests to suplement their seafood diet
it happened in the Zagros Mts where sheep, goat and pigs were domesticated
why was it so succesfull in the Levant? nature was very favourable, for sure, maybe they also had the correct social structure

bicicleur
11-06-17, 20:38
You base your hypothesis on assumptions and personal feelings. This will lead you astray.

what personal feelings?
also earlier in this thread you told me my comment was based on personal feelings and I explained what my comment was based on
you think you know me and know how I think, based on sentiment and prejudice
I'm sorry if I judge some situations different than you do, I think it is my right

Angela
11-06-17, 21:29
by 15 ka when climate became optimal and forests were growing, HG became sedentary all over the world
population had regrown after LGM and every rich hunting and fishing ground became ocupied
the only posibility to expand the population further was diversification
it happened in Europe were they burned forest land to attract deer and to increase the growth of hazel for their nuts and where they produced fish traps on an almost industrial scale
it happened south of the Yangzi river where they started to collect rice
it even happened in Sundaland where for the first time HG started to explore the dense forests to suplement their seafood diet
it happened in the Zagros Mts where sheep, goat and pigs were domesticated
why was it so succesfull in the Levant? nature was very favourable, for sure, maybe they also had the correct social structure

That's a different issue LeBrok. I do think, as John Hawks points out, that the people in the Levant were blessed with a wealth of different resources. That may be part of the answer. I don't know the whole answer.

I just remembered something I read in a paper about the early Neolithic versus the Mesolithic. I'll be darned if I can find the paper, however. It mentioned that weaning children might have been much easier in a farming setting, as well as in more southerly locations, which are coincidentally where early farming flourished more than in very cold settings. It's easy to make a mash of pounded grains or grains and fruit with some milk to give to children until their teeth are sufficiently grown to eat a lot of meat. If your milk dries up, as it can often do even when you're eating reasonably well, the children might suffer. On the other hand, I guess you could pound up some fish I guess, right? I've wondered too if it might have something to do with the fact that women from more "southern" locales seem to start menstruating and thus being capable of childbirth at a younger age than girls in more "northern" locales. The same is true for males from what I remember reading. It's not all that uncommon for girls with more "southern" ancestry to start menstruating as young as ten years old. I think it used to be much older in more northern areas, before all this ingestion of hormone laden milk and meat, that is.

We just don't know enough.

After the very earliest Neolithic, the farmers did spread out from the loess soils, and some did in fact locate near watercourses, and eat a lot of aquatic creatures.

This paper I did find in my files. I saved it, I think, because the settlements are near the Koros sites from which we got those Neolithic samples along with the one Mesolithic one. (genetically, of course)

See: https://www.academia.edu/6771528/Resilience_in_the_Neolithic_how_people_may_have_mi tigated_environmental_change_in_prehistory

It's extremely wordy. Just scroll down to the important stuff.

bicicleur
11-06-17, 22:53
my name is bicicleur, Angela, it is not Lebrok

the paper deals with the Starcevo-Köros culture, not LBK, is it?
I recall these people were not looking for löss, they were living near the floodplains and worked the fertile soils in the floodplains.
They also engaged in hunting and in fact were exploiting all possible resources nature offered them, contrary to the LBK folks.
I got this and many more things from 'Europe between the Oceans' by Barry Cunliffe which I found very informative for an amateur like me.

Angela
11-06-17, 23:41
my name is bicicleur, Angela, it is not Lebrok

the paper deals with the Starcevo-Köros culture, not LBK, is it?
I recall these people were not looking for löss, they were living near the floodplains and worked the fertile soils in the floodplains.
They also engaged in hunting and in fact were exploiting all possible resources nature offered them, contrary to the LBK folks.
I got this and many more things from 'Europe between the Oceans' by Barry Cunliffe which I found very informative for an amateur like me.

Oh gosh, Bicicleur, I'm so sorry. Of course I know who you are...You're one of my absolute favorite posters. I've told you often enough how much I value your input.

Yes, you're absolutely right about the area. I was particularly interested because it was near Koros, as I said.

Genetiker
13-06-17, 06:03
Khvalynsk 7.2-6 ka R1b1-L278, possibly pré-V88

The Y-SNP calls for the Khvalynsk sample I0122 are here (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0122/). He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. Note that the positive call for the V88-equivalent SNP S5025 is reliable, while the three positive calls for P297-equivalent SNPs are not.

The Y-SNP calls for the Mesolithic sample SC1 from the Iron Gates region are here (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-sc1/). He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. With a date of 7125–6603 BC, this is now the oldest such sample.


So, is it possible that one man, R1b-V88 or pré-R1b-V88 got from the Iron Gates into Anatolia and there became the founding father of R1b-V88?

There's no need to posit a special migration to Anatolia for the "founding father of R1b-V88". It's sufficient to simply say that the man in whom V88 originated very likely lived in Europe, and that his descendants would later spread to places outside of Europe, including Africa and the Middle East.

Fire Haired14
13-06-17, 06:54
Thanks Geneticker. One of the Neolithic Ukraine HGs also had R1b V88.

LeBrok
13-06-17, 06:56
The Y-SNP calls for the Khvalynsk sample I0122 are here (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0122/). He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. Note that the positive call for the V88-equivalent SNP S5025 is reliable, while the three positive calls for P297-equivalent SNPs are not.

The Y-SNP calls for the Mesolithic sample SC1 from the Iron Gates region are here (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-sc1/). He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. With a date of 7125–6603 BC, this is now the oldest such sample.



There's no need to posit a special migration to Anatolia for the "founding father of R1b-V88". It's sufficient to simply say that the man in whom V88 originated very likely lived in Europe, and that his descendants would later spread to places outside of Europe, including Africa and the Middle East. Till we find even older pre R1b V88 somewhere else. We should also make a point that we don't have true R1b-88 confirmed yet. One thing is certain R1b haplogoup was very movable and transferable through paleolithic and mesolithic. Khvalynsk is EHG, Iron Gate is WHG.

bicicleur
13-06-17, 10:52
The Y-SNP calls for the Khvalynsk sample I0122 are here (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0122/). He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. Note that the positive call for the V88-equivalent SNP S5025 is reliable, while the three positive calls for P297-equivalent SNPs are not.

The Y-SNP calls for the Mesolithic sample SC1 from the Iron Gates region are here (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-sc1/). He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. With a date of 7125–6603 BC, this is now the oldest such sample.



There's no need to posit a special migration to Anatolia for the "founding father of R1b-V88". It's sufficient to simply say that the man in whom V88 originated very likely lived in Europe, and that his descendants would later spread to places outside of Europe, including Africa and the Middle East.

Thank you Genetiker.
Both were pre-V88 but not the founding father of V88, because both samples are negativ for some V88 SNP's and both are younger than the TMRCA of R1b-V88 which is estimated 11.7 ka.
But they were related to the founding father of V88 who could have lived in the same neighbourhood.

Or maybe not. We also have the pre-I1 in Stora Farvor and the (pre-)I1 in Hungarian LBK, quite a distance apart.

MarkoZ
13-06-17, 11:48
It's sufficient to simply say that the man in whom V88 originated very likely lived in Europe, and that his descendants would later spread to places outside of Europe, including Africa and the Middle East.

A white god.

Brennos
13-06-17, 18:33
Thanks Geneticker. One of the Neolithic Ukraine HGs also had R1b V88.

The authors corrected it and the sample is no more R-V88 in the supplemental materials.

Brennos
13-06-17, 18:34
The Y-SNP calls for the Khvalynsk sample I0122 are here (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0122/). He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. Note that the positive call for the V88-equivalent SNP S5025 is reliable, while the three positive calls for P297-equivalent SNPs are not.

The Y-SNP calls for the Mesolithic sample SC1 from the Iron Gates region are here (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-sc1/). He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. With a date of 7125–6603 BC, this is now the oldest such sample.



There's no need to posit a special migration to Anatolia for the "founding father of R1b-V88". It's sufficient to simply say that the man in whom V88 originated very likely lived in Europe, and that his descendants would later spread to places outside of Europe, including Africa and the Middle East.

Many thanks... Is there another sample that is R among those from Romania?

Genetiker
13-06-17, 19:24
We should also make a point that we don't have true R1b-88 confirmed yet.

The early Neolithic Spanish sample I0410 is definitely V88. It's on the Y7777 branch of V88 that's ancestral to the Middle Eastern and African Y7771 branch, among others.

Genetiker
13-06-17, 19:36
The authors corrected it and the sample is no more R-V88 in the supplemental materials.

You both must be thinking of I1734, which is Mesolithic, not Neolithic. Yes, it was originally labeled R1b1a2, and now it's just labeled R1b1a(xR1b1a1a). So it's possibly V88 or pre-V88, and possibly not.

LeBrok
13-06-17, 19:36
The early Neolithic Spanish sample I0410 is definitely V88. It's on the Y7777 branch of V88 that's ancestral to the Middle Eastern and African Y7771 branch, among others.
In this case it can give us a possibility that V88 migrated to Africa with Neolithic Iberian Farmer.
May I ask, where is the biggest diversity of V88 today?

Genetiker
13-06-17, 19:46
Many thanks... Is there another sample that is R among those from Romania?

SC2 and OC1 are reported to be R1 and R1b. The data for those samples is unaligned. I could align it, but it takes a very long time, so I'm probably not going to. It's not worth the effort. They're probably V88 or pre-V88, like SC1.

Genetiker
13-06-17, 21:06
May I ask, where is the biggest diversity of V88 today?

Sardinia currently appears to have the most diversity, although that may be due to the extensive sampling that's been done there.


In this case it can give us a possibility that V88 migrated to Africa with Neolithic Iberian Farmer.

Yes, and the spread of the Megalithic culture from Iberia into Northwest Africa is the obvious pontential archeological correlate of the spread of R1b-V88, along with the spread of I2a1a1-M26.

berun
13-06-17, 22:02
The megalithism in North Africa is from the Bronze Age, maybe related to the BB expansion there also. By then the Sahara would be insurmountable by then for the R1b-V88 cow herders (the cows are European otherwise?). Instead, by the time that the 5000 BC sample found in the Pyrenees (by sure a herder by the altitude and region where he was buried) we have in the Sahara petroglyphs about herders abd cows, it was the Green Sahara, and both Pyrenees and North Africa received a Cardial demic diffusion...

bicicleur
13-06-17, 22:31
there is also the Almagra pottery culture which predates the Cardial Ware neolithic in Andalusia but about which very little is known
however, as the Els Trocs are rich in EEF with some WHG, I put my 2 cents on Cardial Ware or some related folks
the farmers/herders in Northern Africa were more related to the Levant neolithics

TMRCA of Y7777 is way before Cardial ware or any neolithic expansion from SW Asia

LeBrok
13-06-17, 23:01
The megalithism in North Africa is from the Bronze Age, maybe related to the BB expansion there also. By then the Sahara would be insurmountable by then for the R1b-V88 cow herders (the cows are European otherwise?). Instead, by the time that the 5000 BC sample found in the Pyrenees (by sure a herder by the altitude and region where he was buried) we have in the Sahara petroglyphs about herders abd cows, it was the Green Sahara, and both Pyrenees and North Africa received a Cardial demic diffusion...
There is also a possibility that V88 was also a hunter gatherer in North Africa and could have been "picked up" by expending Levant Farmers around 7-5k BC. In this case V88 had easy enough time to get to SS Africa as farmer/herder, just before Sahara dried up.

Genetiker
14-06-17, 00:01
The megalithism in North Africa is from the Bronze Age, maybe related to the BB expansion there also. By then the Sahara would be insurmountable by then for the R1b-V88 cow herders (the cows are European otherwise?). Instead, by the time that the 5000 BC sample found in the Pyrenees (by sure a herder by the altitude and region where he was buried) we have in the Sahara petroglyphs about herders abd cows, it was the Green Sahara, and both Pyrenees and North Africa received a Cardial demic diffusion...

Interesting, thanks.

I thought that the megaliths in NW Africa might be from the Bronze Age, but I wasn't sure. Do you know of any online sources that discuss their dates? I assume that Bronze Age here means around 2000 BC.

This makes me wonder how much R1b-M269 there is in NW Africa.

Your scenario fits the estimates well. Y7771 is estimated to have formed around 5000 BC, which is right in the middle of the most recent Green Sahara period. And its TMRCA estimate of 3400 BC is around the time that the Sahara dried up.

berun
14-06-17, 07:08
@bicicleur, the African V88 subclades have a TMRCA of around 5000 BC, date that coincides with the apparision of herding in the Sahara. You know, as more cars in a city more car crashes, as more people in a place more mutations.

bicicleur
14-06-17, 09:21
Interesting, thanks.

I thought that the megaliths in NW Africa might be from the Bronze Age, but I wasn't sure. Do you know of any online sources that discuss their dates? I assume that Bronze Age here means around 2000 BC.

This makes me wonder how much R1b-M269 there is in NW Africa.

Your scenario fits the estimates well. Y7771 is estimated to have formed around 5000 BC, which is right in the middle of the most recent Green Sahara period. And its TMRCA estimate of 3400 BC is around the time that the Sahara dried up.

the Green Sahara started about 9-10 ka and it lasted till 5.9 ka, but it was interrupted for a few centuries by the 8.2 ka climate event
before the 8.2 ka climate event the Green Sahara was full of HG, after the 8.2 ka climate it was full of herders
after 5.9 ka the Nile valley was a refuge which became overcrowded and eventualy ended up in warring tribes and the 5 ka foundation of Egypt when the 1st farao came out as victor of these wars

that is why I believe R1b-V88 entered Africa between 8 and 5.5 ka

bicicleur
14-06-17, 09:27
@bicicleur, the African V88 subclades have a TMRCA of around 5000 BC, date that coincides with the apparision of herding in the Sahara. You know, as more cars in a city more car crashes, as more people in a place more mutations.

I was talking about Y7777 with TMRCA 9.6 ka, which is the branch of the El Trocs sample, we don't know which further subclade
Y7771 has TMRCA 5.4 ka, but apart from the African branch, also some Saudi and Kuwaiti are on this branch, which suggests an even later migration into Africa
maybe Y7771 split up from the Nile valley

holderlin
15-06-17, 05:48
A white god.

:laughing::laughing::laughing:

I love it when you do this

holderlin
15-06-17, 20:02
The Y-SNP calls for the Khvalynsk sample I0122 are here (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0122/). He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. Note that the positive call for the V88-equivalent SNP S5025 is reliable, while the three positive calls for P297-equivalent SNPs are not.

The Y-SNP calls for the Mesolithic sample SC1 from the Iron Gates region are here (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-sc1/). He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. With a date of 7125–6603 BC, this is now the oldest such sample.



There's no need to posit a special migration to Anatolia for the "founding father of R1b-V88". It's sufficient to simply say that the man in whom V88 originated very likely lived in Europe, and that his descendants would later spread to places outside of Europe, including Africa and the Middle East.

I never looked at the SNP details, but I saw someone showing V-88 in Ukraine, then I saw this thread.

And I would agree that V-88 looks to have come from the same place as much of the other R1b lines that dispersed during bronze age. I've always wondered why people needed some special place for the origin of V-88, apart from the glut of mesolithic R1b in Europe and the steppe.

IronSide
17-06-17, 05:50
Both R1a and R1b have basal subclades in the Near east, and only from a single point on their respective trees do we see European subclades that would later spread with IE migrations.

If complexity of basal subclades means anything to you, then this means that R1b-P297 and R1a-M17 were the only ones that migrated to Europe during the Mesolithic, posiibly from Anatolia to the Balkans and then to the steppes.

The oldest R1a is from Ukraine 8825-8561 calBCE, and the oldest R1b is from Epigravettian Italy 12230-11830 calBCE (12140±70 BP).

R1b-V88 was left behind in the Middle east, same as R1b-L388*, R1b-PH155, R1b-M335, R1a-YP1272, R1a-YP4141.

We can even say that the entire R2 was left in the Near east, migrating later to India with the Neolithic, this would of course mean that the R* we found in Mal*ta, Siberia for some reason materializes as R in the Near east.

IronSide
17-06-17, 06:00
some creative work, and useful links.

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/palaeolithicdna.shtml
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a?iframe=yresults
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1bBasalSubclades?iframe=yresults

bicicleur
17-06-17, 07:04
Both R1a and R1b have basal subclades in the Near east, and only from a single point on their respective trees do we see European subclades that would later spread with IE migrations.

If complexity of basal subclades means anything to you, then this means that R1b-P297 and R1a-M17 were the only ones that migrated to Europe during the Mesolithic, posiibly from Anatolia to the Balkans and then to the steppes.

The oldest R1a is from Ukraine 8825-8561 calBCE, and the oldest R1b is from Epigravettian Italy 12230-11830 calBCE (12140±70 BP).

R1b-V88 was left behind in the Middle east, same as R1b-L388*, R1b-PH155, R1b-M335, R1a-YP1272, R1a-YP4141.

We can even say that the entire R2 was left in the Near east, migrating later to India with the Neolithic, this would of course mean that the R* we found in Mal*ta, Siberia for some reason materializes as R in the Near east.

as for R1a, R1a1 migrated to Europe but R1a2 might have migrated to SW Asia
all subclades of R1a1 seem European
R1a1b are the combed ware folks
R1a1a1 seems Indo-Europeanised, founding father of both CW and Sintashta

R1b is more complicated, it split up earlier and some of the early clades seem to have arrived in SW Asia, while others arrived in Europe

R2, as you say is pretty straightforward, they arrived in the Zagros Mountains, became herders and spread east and south from there

Genetiker
17-06-17, 23:14
I thought that the megaliths in NW Africa might be from the Bronze Age, but I wasn't sure. Do you know of any online sources that discuss their dates? I assume that Bronze Age here means around 2000 BC.

To answer my own question, the NW African megaliths appear to be from the Neolithic, not the Bronze Age. This page (https://heritageaction.wordpress.com/2011/01/27/the-mysterious-moroccan-megalithic-menhirs-of-mzora/) on the Mzora stone circle in Morocco, which is the largest stone ellipse in the world, states:


The site itself is a Neolithic ellipse of 168 surviving stones of the 175 originally believed to have existed. The tallest of these stones is over 5m in height. The ellipse has a major axis of 59.29 metres and a minor axis of 56.18 metres. At the centre of the ring, and quite probably a much later addition, is a large tumulus (the tomb of Antaeus?).


As hinted at by Geoffrey of Monmouth above, Mzora, incredibly, appears to have been constructed either by the same culture that erected the megalithic sites in France, Britain and Ireland or by one that was intimately connected with them. The ellipse is constructed using a Pythagorean right angled triangle of the ratio 12, 35, 37. This same technique was used in the construction of British stone ellipses of which 30 good examples survive including the Sands of Forvie and Daviot rings.

And this page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eles,_Tunisia) says that the dolmens at Eles, Tunisia, are thought to be from around 2500 BC, which is during the Neolithic, not the Bronze Age.

Genetiker
17-06-17, 23:19
Both R1a and R1b have basal subclades in the Near east, and only from a single point on their respective trees do we see European subclades that would later spread with IE migrations.

If complexity of basal subclades means anything to you, then this means that R1b-P297 and R1a-M17 were the only ones that migrated to Europe during the Mesolithic, posiibly from Anatolia to the Balkans and then to the steppes.

Your comments indicate that you didn't read the thread. The ancient DNA evidence is showing that both R1b-V88 and R1b-P297 arose from R1b-L754 in Europe during the Paleolithic, around 17,000 years ago, somewhere in the area from Italy to Ukraine that was occupied by the Epigravettian culture. There's also no reason to think that R1a originated anywhere but Europe.


The oldest R1a is from Ukraine 8825-8561 calBCE, and the oldest R1b is from Epigravettian Italy 12230-11830 calBCE (12140±70 BP).

That R1a sample, I1819, is labeled only R1a, and not something more derived, which supports a European origin for R1a.

Villabruna is most likely R1b-L754*, which supports a European origin for V88 and P297.


R1b-V88 was left behind in the Middle east, same as R1b-L388*, R1b-PH155, R1b-M335, R1a-YP1272, R1a-YP4141.

R1b-V88 wasn't "left behind in the Middle east". The Iron Gates sample SC1 and the Spanish sample I0410 are showing that V88 originated in European hunter-gatherers, and that its M18 and Y7777 branches later entered the early European farmer population. Some of those European farmers belonging to the Y7777 branch then migrated to Africa or the Middle East around 5000 BC, where the Y7771 branch originated.

The other R1b and R1a branches that you mention are found in both Europe and the Middle East, so there are no grounds for assuming that they originated in the Middle East.

This page (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1bBasalSubclades?iframe=yresults) shows R1b-L389(xP297) in samples of European origin from various places, including Belarus, Puerto Rico, Greece, and Italy.

The same page also shows R1b-PH155 and R1b-PH155-M335 in European samples, from Russia, Germany, and Italy.

This page (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a?iframe=yresults) shows R1a-YP1272 in samples from Belarus, the Czech Republic, Italy, and Russia.

The same page also shows R1a-YP4141 in samples with origins in England, Ireland, Scotland, and Italy.


We can even say that the entire R2 was left in the Near east, migrating later to India with the Neolithic, this would of course mean that the R* we found in Mal*ta, Siberia for some reason materializes as R in the Near east.

There's no doubt that R2 has early origins in the Middle East, because my analyses (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016/06/22/y-snp-calls-from-the-ancient-near-east/) showed that it was present Neolithic samples from Iran. Those same analyses showed that, except for one R1b-L389(xP297) sample from Bronze Age Armenia, R1 was absent in the ancient Middle East. That fact combined with the abundance of R1 in Paleolithic and Mesolithic European samples strongly points to a European origin of most if not all branches of R1.

Brennos
21-06-17, 18:05
Your comments indicate that you didn't read the thread. The ancient DNA evidence is showing that both R1b-V88 and R1b-P297 arose from R1b-L754 in Europe during the Paleolithic, around 17,000 years ago, somewhere in the area from Italy to Ukraine that was occupied by the Epigravettian culture. There's also no reason to think that R1a originated anywhere but Europe.



That R1a sample, I1819, is labeled only R1a, and not something more derived, which supports a European origin for R1a.

Villabruna is most likely R1b-L754*, which supports a European origin for V88 and P297.



R1b-V88 wasn't "left behind in the Middle east". The Iron Gates sample SC1 and the Spanish sample I0410 are showing that V88 originated in European hunter-gatherers, and that its M18 and Y7777 branches later entered the early European farmer population. Some of those European farmers belonging to the Y7777 branch then migrated to Africa or the Middle East around 5000 BC, where the Y7771 branch originated.

The other R1b and R1a branches that you mention are found in both Europe and the Middle East, so there are no grounds for assuming that they originated in the Middle East.

This page (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1bBasalSubclades?iframe=yresults) shows R1b-L389(xP297) in samples of European origin from various places, including Belarus, Puerto Rico, Greece, and Italy.

The same page also shows R1b-PH155 and R1b-PH155-M335 in European samples, from Russia, Germany, and Italy.

This page (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a?iframe=yresults) shows R1a-YP1272 in samples from Belarus, the Czech Republic, Italy, and Russia.

The same page also shows R1a-YP4141 in samples with origins in England, Ireland, Scotland, and Italy.



There's no doubt that R2 has early origins in the Middle East, because my analyses (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016/06/22/y-snp-calls-from-the-ancient-near-east/) showed that it was present Neolithic samples from Iran. Those same analyses showed that, except for one R1b-L389(xP297) sample from Bronze Age Armenia, R1 was absent in the ancient Middle East. That fact combined with the abundance of R1 in Paleolithic and Mesolithic European samples strongly points to a European origin of most if not all branches of R1.

Just a thought with the aim to make order: is it possible this view about origins, i.e. V88 in the Balkans, P297 north-east from it, M269 between Poland and Ukraine, M73 Ukraine?

Genetiker
22-06-17, 15:47
Just a thought with the aim to make order: is it possible this view about origins, i.e. V88 in the Balkans, P297 north-east from it, M269 between Poland and Ukraine, M73 Ukraine?

Yes, V88 probably originated in the Balkans.

P297, M269, and M73 had to have originated east of the Balkans, or they would appear in early farmer samples.

The absence of P297 in the Mesolithic and Neolithic Ukrainian samples, the M73 in the Samara and Latvian hunter-gatherers, and the M269 in the Russian Pit Grave samples all point to a Russian origin of P297, M269, and M73.

bicicleur
22-06-17, 16:04
P297 and M73 - M269 probably too - seem to have originated in the Baltic area and pushed south by the incoming R1a1b comb ceramic tribes

holderlin
08-07-17, 10:09
For the West Asian and West African subclades I've always said the Iberian Penninsula is the effective V-88 homeland.

And right now it looks like most if not all of modern day R1b lineages originated in Europe and began to disperse during thae Eneolithic.

raspberry
25-06-18, 14:09
Your comments indicate that you didn't read the thread. The ancient DNA evidence is showing that both R1b-V88 and R1b-P297 arose from R1b-L754 in Europe during the Paleolithic, around 17,000 years ago, somewhere in the area from Italy to Ukraine that was occupied by the Epigravettian culture. There's also no reason to think that R1a originated anywhere but Europe.
That R1a sample, I1819, is labeled only R1a, and not something more derived, which supports a European origin for R1a.
Villabruna is most likely R1b-L754*, which supports a European origin for V88 and P297.
R1b-V88 wasn't "left behind in the Middle east". The Iron Gates sample SC1 and the Spanish sample I0410 are showing that V88 originated in European hunter-gatherers, and that its M18 and Y7777 branches later entered the early European farmer population. Some of those European farmers belonging to the Y7777 branch then migrated to Africa or the Middle East around 5000 BC, where the Y7771 branch originated.
The other R1b and R1a branches that you mention are found in both Europe and the Middle East, so there are no grounds for assuming that they originated in the Middle East.
This page (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1bBasalSubclades?iframe=yresults) shows R1b-L389(xP297) in samples of European origin from various places, including Belarus, Puerto Rico, Greece, and Italy.
The same page also shows R1b-PH155 and R1b-PH155-M335 in European samples, from Russia, Germany, and Italy.
This page (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a?iframe=yresults) shows R1a-YP1272 in samples from Belarus, the Czech Republic, Italy, and Russia.
The same page also shows R1a-YP4141 in samples with origins in England, Ireland, Scotland, and Italy.
There's no doubt that R2 has early origins in the Middle East, because my analyses (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016/06/22/y-snp-calls-from-the-ancient-near-east/) showed that it was present Neolithic samples from Iran. Those same analyses showed that, except for one R1b-L389(xP297) sample from Bronze Age Armenia, R1 was absent in the ancient Middle East. That fact combined with the abundance of R1 in Paleolithic and Mesolithic European samples strongly points to a European origin of most if not all branches of R1.
What you do not understand on the behalf of R1b-L389(xP297) is that most basal of this clade is found in the Near East. I myself belong to this clade. All the European (Puerto Rico, Italy) belong to the same subclade of V1636 (V1274). The BA Armenian clade of L389 is non existent anymore (or not found at least). Undoubtfully, this is a Paleolithic Near Eastern haplogroup.

HG00640 R-V1636* A
YF10512 R-Y106006 G
YF12189 R-Y106006 G
V1274: hg 19 7613234 (G>A) is positive not only for Italian Mangino and the Jewish cluster, but also for the Iberian cluster, but not for the NE cluster, thus the Near Eastern cluster separated before from these ones. (from forum molgen)

holderlin
27-06-18, 05:47
What you do not understand on the behalf of R1b-L389(xP297) is that most basal of this clade is found in the Near East. I myself belong to this clade. All the European (Puerto Rico, Italy) belong to the same subclade of V1636 (V1274). The BA Armenian clade of L389 is non existent anymore (or not found at least). Undoubtfully, this is a Paleolithic Near Eastern haplogroup.

HG00640 R-V1636* A
YF10512 R-Y106006 G
YF12189 R-Y106006 G
V1274: hg 19 7613234 (G>A) is positive not only for Italian Mangino and the Jewish cluster, but also for the Iberian cluster, but not for the NE cluster, thus the Near Eastern cluster separated before from these ones. (from forum molgen)

These are modern samples though and there is little correlation, especially in the West in comparison pre-bronze age samples