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Balkanite
17-06-17, 12:03
Hello people,
I want to hear how and when you think the different non-slavic nationalities of the world got their I2a-Slavic input?

This is a discussion based on the premise that I2a-Slavic spread with the expansions an and migrations of the slavs.
If anyone disagrees on this fundamental premise that I2a-Slavic is slavic, then i advise you to go to one one the designated threads for discussing those things.
Posts disputing this simple premise will be seen as off-topic and spam, and i will personally report any post which breaks the premise for our discussion.
Again, there are other threads where you can discuss if I2a-Slavic is really slavic. This thread is for people who have settled on that fact, and are now actually moving on.

So, back to the subject.

I know a bit I2a-Slavic in greece and in albania, but you guys will have to help me with the rest of the countries :)

The greeks belonging to I2a-Slavic probably were slavs who lived in modern Greece during the formation of the greek state in 1821, but soon all orthodox churches became greek in language, so practically all I2a-Slavic Orthodox's who were fast enough to reach modern Greece before 1821, became Hellenized after 1821 and today, those ex-slavs still call themselves greeks.

The I2a-Slavic in albanians, may have come during the Ottoman Empire, where there were Muslim Gorani(slavs), Muslim Bosnians(slavs) and Muslim Albanians living side by side in many instances. Sometimes an albanian J2b2 would become slavicized if living among a majority of Muslim slavs, within a matter of a generation or two. On the other hand, a muslim I2a-Slavic slav would also be albanized if living among a majority of albanians for a generation or two.

So actually written sources and population demographics of middle age and modern history fits perfectly into the theory that those those countries with percentages of I2a-Slavic actually have small percentages of assimilated slavic Y-DNA.

And of course one should consider that Y-DNA doesn't decide what you are. I would still see the two above example individuals as one greek and one albanian. Just because one single ancestor of theirs was slavic, hardly makes them slavic in my eyes.

So, anyone know how and when other countries got their I2a-Slavic?

Yetos
17-06-17, 17:35
1rst do not threat us,

2nd a good advice is to find the origins of old I2a2 Din

3rd combine origins, dates and history,
medieval era is not that old,

I2a2 Din is late entrance to Balkans, and might be connected with the entrance of South Slavs

R1a is older, far older to be considered as South Slavic mark.

Balkanite
17-06-17, 20:22
I do not know much about R1a, so to be honest, i do not want to call it slavic or non-slavic. I have not read enough about the subclades of that haplogroup.

But yes, i believe you are right that I2a-slav came with the South slavs.

Fatherland
17-06-17, 20:25
97% of the R1a in the Balkans and Greece is of Slavic origin.

Z93 is the only one in Balkans/Greece of non-Slavic extraction and is rarely found in modern specimen over there.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/2f/a7/39/2fa739160d49273e6279b278d8fa6711.png

Bergin
17-06-17, 21:26
But yes, i believe you are right that I2a-slav came with the South slavs.

We don't know for sure where I2a... came from. There is a good chance it came with the slavs, but this does not mean that they are slavic population by definition. So maybe there has to be a clear separation between genetic-affinity (slavic) or cultural-affinity (slavic), or maybe both.


Just to let you know that there are quite some similarities between the Ev13 dynamics and the I2a-Din. Clearly the timescale is shifted by a lot, but:

Ev13 might have originally been farmers - what language did they speak?
I2a-Din might have originally been germanic/east europe - What language did they speak?

Ev13 re-expands during the bronze age and returns to the south balkans - (what language do they speak now?), did they become indo-european 100% or did they keep still some farmer culture?
I2a-Din expands after the goths, probably with slavs - what language do they speak now? Did they become 100% slavic or they kept some of their previous culture?

Do you remember all the questions regarding EV13 african, european, anatolian, levantine and so on.
Well slowly data started to converge.
All these questions regarding I2a-Din will also be answered soon. So no need to jump at a conclusion yet.


Well few thing are for sure:
1- While Y-dna in the balkans shows maps with a large contrast and very local, autosomal shows a relatively smooth map with little contrast. These populations have mixed with each other (honestly some beautiful specimen have come out)

2- Timeframes and causality. Because of the similarities in autosomals, but the large difference in IBD patterns (not Y-DNA), it is clear that the mixing occurred after the IBD peak (if not it would show uniformity in the western balkans). That peak is strongly located at 500-1000 AD.

Fatherland
17-06-17, 21:28
We don't know for sure where I2a... came from. There is a good chance it came with the slavs, but this does not mean that they are slavic population by definition. So maybe there has to be a clear separation between genetic-affinity (slavic) or cultural-affinity (slavic), or maybe both.


Just to let you know that there are quite some similarities between the Ev13 dynamics and the I2a-Din. Clearly the timescale is shifted by a lot, but:

Ev13 might have originally been farmers - what language did they speak?
I2a-Din might have originally been germanic/east europe - What language did they speak?

Ev13 re-expands during the bronze age and returns to the south balkans - (what language do they speak now?), did they become indo-european 100% or did they keep still some farmer culture?
I2a-Din expands after the goths, probably with slavs - what language do they speak now? Did they become 100% slavic or they kept some of their previous culture?

Do you remember all the questions regarding EV13 african, european, anatolian, levantine and so on.
Well slowly data started to converge.
All these questions regarding I2a-Din will also be answered soon. So no need to jump at a conclusion yet.


Well few thing are for sure:
1- While Y-dna in the balkans shows maps with a large contrast and very local, autosomal shows a relatively smooth map with little contrast. These populations have mixed with each other (honestly some beautiful specimen have come out)

2- Timeframes and causality. Because of the similarities in autosomals, but the large difference in IBD patterns (not Y-DNA), it is clear that the mixing occurred after the IBD peak (if not it would show uniformity in the western balkans). That peak is strongly located at 500-1000 AD.

There's still a large contrast by autosomal. Do you know how genetic shifting works?
Albanians and Montenegrins plot FAR apart despite being direct neighbors.

Autosomally, Albanians are much closer to South Serbs near Kosovo, FYROMians and Bulgarians who do have more native Balkan admixture than other South Slavs.

Montenegrins as I said, other Serbs, Croats and any Bosnians are far apart from Albanians.

Yetos
17-06-17, 23:01
I do not know much about R1a, so to be honest, i do not want to call it slavic or non-slavic. I have not read enough about the subclades of that haplogroup.

But yes, i believe you are right that I2a-slav came with the South slavs.


ok now lets face some facts before we make easy anouncements.

old name/code I2a2 Din is not connected with high peaks of population.
but with its 'father' I2 and with high peak of diversities,
so most possible is to be connected with GettoThracian or with more north Moldova till Ukraine,
part of it is today Latinised,
so most possible for me is to be also connected with Antes people,
some claim that antes were Alans

so if we exclude ethnicity which is the last to search,
until today we are certain that is connected with North East of Aimos, if remember well
and is very young, to rest of Balkans,
younger of R1a which some claim as mark of south Slavic,
which might exist in Balkans 3500 years from now
before modern Balkanic ethnicities creation

Fatherland
17-06-17, 23:24
Great, informative topic: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31961-I2a1b2a1-(I-CTS10228)-a-strong-marker-of-Slavic-expansion?p=475460#post475460

Yetos
17-06-17, 23:51
FACE THE FACTS

Ducchy of Carinthia
Slovenia
the first mention ever of Slavic language and people,

Kingdom of Antes
the other first mention of possible Slavs

among them the Havars Αβαροι


What are talking now?

that Slovenes were not Slavs but Illyrians
or that Antes were not Slavs but Germans,

if old I2a2 Din is not Slavic then it might be Gothic,
since we know that Goths lived in Crimaia and Ukraine

But I do not consider it Gothic, since how many traces left at the lands that Goths reach?

he who eyes can solve the broken puzzle

Maciamo
18-06-17, 13:09
Balkanite, what subclade are you calling I2a-Slavic?

Balkanite
18-06-17, 14:41
Balkanite, what subclade are you calling I2a-Slavic?

CTS10228 if i remember the name correctly

Trojet
19-06-17, 00:45
Interesting thread, Balkanite!

I2a-Slavic (I-CTS10228) shows arguably the strongest correlation of Slavic expansion in the Balkans of any Y-DNA.

From historical sources, we know the area of present day Bosnia was hit the hardest by the Slavic migrations, and this is precisely where I2a-Slavic peaks in frequency at over 50%, and most of it belonging to the very young I-PH908 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-PH908/) cluster, TMRCA 1850 years (aka Slavic or Din South). I-PH908 is also present in significant amounts in East and West Slavs, which means its origin is most likely somewhere North of the Carpathians. While the frequency of Pre-Slavic HGs decreases considerably in the area of Bosnia. On the other hand in places like Northern Albania where the Slavs barely set any foot, this Y-haplogroup is virtually non-existent. Instead, Northern Albania is precisely the region where Pre-Slavic Balkan haplogroups peak in frequency.

So to summarize, I would say the biggest contrast in frequency of I2a-Slavic is these two places: Bosnia +50%, and Northern Albania close to 0%. Which is to be expected.

Fatherland
19-06-17, 01:00
Interesting thread, Balkanite!

I2a-Slavic (I-CTS10228) shows arguably the strongest correlation of Slavic expansions in the Balkans of any Y-DNA. From historical sources, we know the area of present day Bosnia was hit the hardest by the Slavic migrations, and this is precisely where I2a-Slavic peaks in frequency at over 50%, while the frequency of Pre-Slavic HGs decreases considerably. On the other hand in places like Northern Albania where the Slavs barely set any foot, this Y-haplogroup is virtually non-existent. Instead northern Albania is precisely the region where Pre-Slavic Balkan haplogroups peak in frequency.

So I would say the biggest contrast in frequency of I2a-Slavic is these two places: Bosnia +50%, and Northern Albania close to 0%. Which is to be expected.

You are indeed correct, Trojet. It also corresponds with these MLDP frequencies

Atlanto-Mediterranean admixture, peaks in Ghegs across Eastern Europe:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-uJ3wHmXSLm0/UFtAN2nsPJI/AAAAAAAAD0g/4sIVqH0icsE/s1600/MDLPatlantomed.jpg




North East Euro admixture:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-UAJRnMeDZnk/UFtHsDPRu6I/AAAAAAAAD2E/pSQOKLMg4lY/s1600/MDLPnortheasteuro.jpg

Trojet
19-06-17, 01:11
You are indeed correct. It also corresponds with these MLDP frequencies

Atlanto-Mediterranean admixture, peaks in Ghegs across Eastern Europe:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-uJ3wHmXSLm0/UFtAN2nsPJI/AAAAAAAAD0g/4sIVqH0icsE/s1600/MDLPatlantomed.jpg




North East Euro admixture:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-UAJRnMeDZnk/UFtHsDPRu6I/AAAAAAAAD2E/pSQOKLMg4lY/s1600/MDLPnortheasteuro.jpg

Thanks for sharing these two admixture maps, Fatherland! When I zoom into these maps, it sums up the whole story. Especially, the North East Euro admixture shows a strong correlation with I2a-Slavic frequency (in the Balkans).

Garrick
19-06-17, 01:41
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Balkanite
28-06-17, 10:31
Thanks guys, for the facts and for the admixture maps.

It is really interesting to see how I2a-slav is absent in ghegs. It fits perfectly with the fact that ghegs are the ones in Balkan who has intermixed the least with the slavic settlers who brought I2a-slav to the balkans in the middle ages :)


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Fatherland
28-06-17, 13:10
Thanks guys, for the facts and for the admixture maps.

It is really interesting to see how I2a-slav is absent in ghegs. It fits perfectly with the fact that ghegs are the ones in Balkan who has intermixed the least with the slavic settlers who brought I2a-slav to the balkans in the middle ages :)


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Indeed.

The only Slavic admixture Ghegs got is from maternal side. It was not uncommon for Albanian men to take Slavic wives throughout history.

gyms
08-08-17, 13:58
Genetic characterization of 27 Y-STR loci with the Yfiler® Plus kit in the population of Serbia

Dragana Zgonjanin
Rashed Alghafri
General Department of Forensic Sciences and Criminology, Dubai Police G.H.Q., Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Mirjana Antov
Faculty of Technology, University of Novi Sad, Blvd. Cara Lazara 1, Novi Sad, Serbia
Goran Stojiljković
Stojan Petković
Radenko Vuković
Dragan Drašković

"The Y-STR haplotypes observed in the three Serbian geographic areas is reported in Table S1. A total of 200 different haplotypes was observed in the sample of 203 Serbian individuals. A total of 197 unique haplotypes (singletons) were obtained from 203 individuals using the Yfiler® Plus kit (Table S2). All haplotypes in Northern, Central and Southern Serbia were unique, but three haplotypes shared between different Serbian regions were found (Table S1). A null allele was observed in one individual at DYS391. In all the samples, four different intermediate alleles were found in two loci (DYS390 and DYS458) whereas locus DYS458 showed the highest number (three different intermediate alleles with 17.2, 19.2 and 20.2, each of them were observed two times). In Western Eurasia, micro-variant alleles at the DYS458 locus have been frequently found to be associated with the binary haplogroups J1-M267 and R1b3-M405 [9,10]. Intermediate allele 24.3 at DYS390 was observed eight times."

"Genetic distances (RST) were calculated between the Serbian populations and 11 additional populations from which data for the same set of 27 Y-STRs were available (Basque Country [13]; Italy [14]; China [15]; Denmark, Greenland, Somalia [16]; Switzerland; Germany; Austria; Hungary and Poland (data submitted to the YHRD [8])). The genetic distance between populations (RST) and multidimensional scaling (MDS) analysis were obtained by using the “AMOVA and MDS” online tool implemented in YHRD. In the calculation of genetic distances with the YHRD tool, haplotypes presenting null, intermediate, duplicated (except for DYS385 and DYF387S1) or triplicated alleles were removed, and the number of repeats in DYS389I were subtracted from DYS389II. Pairwise genetic distances were visualized in two-dimensional space using the multi-dimensional scaling (MDS) method [17]. RST p-values were calculated for 10,000 permutations.

Small, non-statistically significant RST values were obtained between Northern, Central and Southern Serbia (Table S4). The results revealed significant differences between the three Serbian geographic areas and all compared populations (Table S4). Accordingly, in the MDS plot (Fig. S3) samples from Northern, Central and Southern Serbia clustered together, clearly separated from the other European samples. The majority of European populations formed a loose cluster except for the Polish and Hungarian. A clear East–West divide has been confirmed in the haplotype variations in European analysis [18,19].

This study represents the first report of haplotype frequencies for the Yfiler® Plus markers’ set in a population of Serbia, showing a high diversity of haplotypes and, therefore, demonstrating their usefulness in forensic identification cases."
http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S...17)30155-2/pdf (http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973(17)30155-2/pdf)

Haplotypes available here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzQ7ajrn9vY6S1BJUnNMeGZEQU0/view).
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=271306#post271306

A total of 200 different haplotypes was observed in the sample of 203 Serbian individuals. A total of 197 unique haplotypes (singletons) were obtained from 203 individuals using the Yfiler® Plus kit (Table S2).(!!!)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzQ7ajrn9vY6S1BJUnNMeGZEQU0/view

JajarBingan
08-08-17, 23:29
At least in Romania, I2a1b most likely indicates an initial Slavic lineage since R1a alone simply cannot amount for all the Slavic input on Romania and Romanians.
The degree of Slavic input can be seen by evaluating two dimensions: place names/toponyms and the language.

1) Place names/toponyms

The amount of Slavic toponyms in the country is literally unbelievable. I don't think there is a comprehensive study about their distribution, but if you are a Slavic language speaker then just zoom in on google maps and explore the place names for a while.

As an experiment, I picked a random spot in Oltenia, since it is considered that the dialect in this region has the most Romance elements out of all Romanian dialects. So naturally, I'd expect this region to have the fewest foreign elements. Nonetheless, by scanning a part of this region and using an etymological Romanian dictionary, I found a lot of Slavic place names. I coloured them red.

http://i.imgur.com/iBDoZNS.png
(http://i.imgur.com/iBDoZNS.png)

"The most common suffixes in Romanian place names are -eşti and -ani, -eni. They designate the origin of the inhabitants (coming from a place or belonging to the head of family or to the owner on which the name is based). The suffix -eşti is considered to be of Thracian origin; it also exists in Albanian (cf., the Albanian place name Bukurisht). The suffix -ani (and its variant -eni) is of Slavic origin (-ěninŭ). Romanian Bucureşti (Bucharest) means "the Bucurescu family"; Găureni derives from găură "hole, opening," thus, "people who live in holes or in the vicinity of holes." These suffixes may be used in the study of migrations and colonizations. Another suffix of Slavic origin is -ăuţi, from Ukrainian -ovtsi today -ivtsi), with approximately the same meaning as that of -ani, as in Rădăuţi, from the personal name Radu. The meaning of the suffix -inţ(i), of Slavic origin, is also similar to that of -ani. In several cases, the Romanian form reproduces the Slavic plural: Romanian Stremţi, cf., Slavic *Srěmĭtsi(Serbian Sremtsi "people coming from Srem"). This suffix, like -ăuţi, indicates the personal origin (not the local one) of the inhabitants. Place names ending in -ova, -ava were also created by the use of a Slavic suffix, in most cases by a Slavic population: Ardeova from Hungarian erdő "forest" + the Slavic suffix -ova; Craiova, cf., Slavic kral "king"."


2) Language

It is no secret that Romanian has a long list of Slavic words. Their approximate share is estimated at ~14%.

http://i.imgur.com/YwBQ9Yv.png


The Slavic borrowings in Romanian indicate that the Slavs were a settled people, as opposed to the roaming Romanian cattle-breeders and that the two ethnic groups gradually began to mix.

"At the arrival of the Slavs, the Romance-speaking Vlachs were rural cattle breeders, sometimes in a season transhumant way; most Romanian vocabulary related to cattle and cattle-breeding is of Latin origin. In contrast, most tools and utensils related to agronomy (as well as urban life) were replaced with Slavic names: lopată "spade" (Proto-Slavic *lopata), daltă "chisel" (*delto), topor "axe" (*toporъ), sită "sieve" (*sito), nicovală "anvil" (*nakovalo), coasă "scythe" (*kosa), tocilă "grindstone" (*točilo), greblă "rake", potcoavă"horseshoe" (*podъkova), zabrea "trellis"."

Slavic (synonym) terminology is almost exclusive when used to assign titles and ranks to medieval nobility: boier "boyar", cneaz "knyaz", rob "slave" (*orbъ), slugă "servant" (*sluga), a sluji "to serve" (*služiti), etc. It is also used to describe urban life and finances which emerged with the arrival of the Slavs: a plăti "pay" (*platiti), târg "market" (*tъrgъ), rând "row" ( *rędъ), sticlă "glass" (*stьklo). Seafaring concepts have also some Slavic-borrowed synonyms: corabie "ship" (*korabjь), lotcă "boat" (*oldьja, *oldъka), and vâslă "oar" (*veslo) all come from their Slavic equivalents virtually unaltered.

Most Slavic words were acquired through everyday contact with Slavic merchants, peasants and soldiers. Due to the influx of Slavs, much of the original Vlach population (estimated at 1 million by the end of the Roman rule) became bilingual between the 6th and 12th centuries. Inter-ethnic marriages were common, as Slavs settled among the Romanians. Some words describing family relations are Slavic, or show heavy Slavic influence: nevastă "wife" < невеста, rudă "relatives" < родa (in Bulgarian); plod < плод "baby", the suffix -că added to the Latin root fi- in fiică "daughter" (compare Bulgarian: щерка or Serbo-Croatian (k)ćerka/кћерка), bunică "granny" or maică< майка (in Bulgarian) "mother". The degree to which Slavic and Romance populations interacted is also underscored by many words describing affection which are borrowed from Slavic.
Roughly a fifth of spoken Romanian colloquial vocabulary is based on common Slavic roots such as: a iubi "to love", a citi "to read", nevoie "need", cinstit "honest",prieten "friend", trebuie "necessary", ceașcă "cup". This situation is akin to the number and usage of French borrowings in English. Slavic borrowings are especially frequent when strong emotional terms or feelings are involved: silă "compulsion", vină "guilt", jale "sorrow", milă "compassion", boală "illness, disease", iubire "love", dragoste "love", slavă "glory", nădejde "hope", etc. Slavic-derived adjectives and participles seem to have been borrowed in droves and form a whole lexical layer: slab, drag, bolnav, bogat, prost, drăguț, cinstit, iscusit, iubit, jalnic, zadarnic, vrednic, obraznic, voinic, groaznic, harnic, strașnic, darnic, milostiv, mucenic.


According to the data on Eupedia, approx. 1000 Romanian samples, I2a + R1a are found among 46% of the Romanian population. The assimilation process has been a success.