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baha
27-06-17, 23:15
Hello there. I m new to this forum, I am glad to be the part of your community. I am male from Uzbekistan, Bukhoro. I did DNA test and was surprised to know that my y DNA is e1b1b1a1b1a* which is ev 13 and is almost non existent in Central Asia as far as I know. I saw many ev13 maps and they don't include Central Asia at all. I think my case is very interesting and I was very surprised to have y DNA the same as most Kosovars Albanians. I don't know how Balkan y DNA settled in Uzbekistan.
My mtdna is k1a4a1e, because my mother is Central European.

Cip
28-06-17, 00:06
Hello there. I m new to this forum, I am glad to be they part of your community. I am male from Uzbekistan, Bukhoro, living now in Russia. I did DNA test and was surprised to know that my y DNA is e1b1b1a1b1a* which is ev 13 and is almost non existent in Central Asia as far as I know. I saw many ev13 maps and they don't include Central Asia at all. I think my case is very interesting and I was very surprised to have y DNA the same as most Kosovars Albanians. I don't know how Balkan y DNA settled in Uzbekistan.
My mtdna is k1a4a1e, because my mother is Central European.

Uzbekistan, Bukhoro area corresponds to the ancient population of Massagetae:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Asia_323bc.jpg

Massagetae originated in Balkans: Getae (as greek called them) or Dacians (as romans called them). The were closely related to Thracians.
Prefix ''massa'' means ''great'' or ''strong'' in old persian language or according to other oopinion ''far away'' in greek language. So massagetae= the great getae or the getae from far away.
In my opinion based on your result this must be the most likely scenario.

Yetos
28-06-17, 02:13
Hello there. I m new to this forum, I am glad to be they part of your community. I am male from Uzbekistan, Bukhoro, living now in Russia. I did DNA test and was surprised to know that my y DNA is e1b1b1a1b1a* which is ev 13 and is almost non existent in Central Asia as far as I know. I saw many ev13 maps and they don't include Central Asia at all. I think my case is very interesting and I was very surprised to have y DNA the same as most Kosovars Albanians. I don't know how Balkan y DNA settled in Uzbekistan.
My mtdna is k1a4a1e, because my mother is Central European.

are you from Tashkent?
or Aral?

Kaser
28-06-17, 02:16
Hello brother! welcome to the forum, I'm also new here.

baha
28-06-17, 02:48
are you from Tashkent?
or Aral?
No I am from Bukhara, which is on the south of Uzbekistan, and historically has a significant ethnic Tajik population and some Iranians too. Tashkent is far more turkic/mongolized as far as I know imo

baha
28-06-17, 03:17
Uzbekistan, Bukhoro area corresponds to the ancient population of Massagetae:


Massagetae originated in Balkans: Getae (as greek called them) or Dacians (as romans called them). The were closely related to Thracians.
Prefix ''massa'' means ''great'' or ''strong'' in old persian language or according to other oopinion ''far away'' in greek language. So massagetae= the great getae or the getae from far away.
In my opinion based on your result this must be the most likely scenario.
Interesting hypothesis.
Is there a chance that Alexander the Great soldiers impregnated some local women during their invasion to Khorasan territories (which includes Bukhoro and Samarkand)?

IronSide
28-06-17, 06:11
There are two ways E-V13 could end up in Central Asia:

1- Greco Bactrain Kingdom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_Kingdom

https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-201448fdad5c85f311d50c50054fd4b0

In the aftermath of Alexander The Great's death, his vast empire was divided among his generals, one of them, Seleucus Nicator, founded the Seleucid Empire, which controlled most of Alexander's Asian territory, including Central Asia. At a later date, Diodotus, the satrap of Bactria (and probably the surrounding provinces) founded the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom when he seceded from the Seleucid Empire around 250 BC and became King Diodotus I of Bactria.

This kingdom's population did include Greek and Macedonian colonists, soldiers and administrators, as well as natives, so E-V13 could end up in central Asia because of them.

If you test deep subclades of E-V13 and then turn out to cluster in a clade that include people from the Balkans, then you indeed descend from Greek or Macedonian settlers.

2- From Russia :

It is possible that E-V13 could end in central Asia from the time of the Russian Empire or the Soviet Union, I don't know if its possible to determine if this is true, because testing deep subclades that include Russians might also include other people from eastern Europe or the Balkans, in theory it should work but I don't think there are enough samples with detailed subclades, have you joined the E-V13 project or not ? that might help.

baha
28-06-17, 19:24
To IronSide: 2nd is impossible because my father is not Russian and doesn't have Russian relatives. Moreover Russian presence in Uzbekistan started when USSR was formed, so Russian/local ethnic mix is very recent and very rare. Like in my case - local father and Russian mother (however autosomal analysis reveals she's about 40% Russian)

Sile
28-06-17, 19:35
There are two ways E-V13 could end up in Central Asia:

1- Greco Bactrain Kingdom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_Kingdom

https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-201448fdad5c85f311d50c50054fd4b0

In the aftermath of Alexander The Great's death, his vast empire was divided among his generals, one of them, Seleucus Nicator, founded the Seleucid Empire, which controlled most of Alexander's Asian territory, including Central Asia. At a later date, Diodotus, the satrap of Bactria (and probably the surrounding provinces) founded the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom when he seceded from the Seleucid Empire around 250 BC and became King Diodotus I of Bactria.

This kingdom's population did include Greek and Macedonian colonists, soldiers and administrators, as well as natives, so E-V13 could end up in central Asia because of them.

If you test deep subclades of E-V13 and then turn out to cluster in a clade that include people from the Balkans, then you indeed descend from Greek or Macedonian settlers.

2- From Russia :

It is possible that E-V13 could end in central Asia from the time of the Russian Empire or the Soviet Union, I don't know if its possible to determine if this is true, because testing deep subclades that include Russians might also include other people from eastern Europe or the Balkans, in theory it should work but I don't think there are enough samples with detailed subclades, have you joined the E-V13 project or not ? that might help.

Is that really called central-asia?

any way, IIRC the E-V13 as I read a few years ago was attributed to Macedonian troops via modern albania , as Macedonia ruled all of Albania from Alexanders father time until the roman-macedonian wars of 198BC-146BC

baha
28-06-17, 20:30
There are two ways E-V13 could end up in Central Asia:

1- Greco Bactrain

In the aftermath of Alexander The Great's death, his vast empire was divided among his generals, one of them, Seleucus Nicator, founded the Seleucid Empire, which controlled most of Alexander's Asian territory, including Central Asia. At a later date, Diodotus, the satrap of Bactria (and probably the surrounding provinces) founded the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom when he seceded from the Seleucid Empire around 250 BC and became King Diodotus I of Bactria.

This kingdom's population did include Greek and Macedonian colonists, soldiers and administrators, as well as natives, so E-V13 could end up in central Asia because of them.

If you test deep subclades of E-V13 and then turn out to cluster in a clade that include people from the Balkans, then you indeed descend from Greek or Macedonian settlers.

2- From Russia :

It is possible that E-V13 could end in central Asia from the time of the Russian Empire or the Soviet Union, I don't know if its possible to determine if this is true, because testing deep subclades that include Russians might also include other people from eastern Europe or the Balkans, in theory it should work but I don't think there are enough samples with detailed subclades, have you joined the E-V13 project or not ? that might help.

Actually I did the test in a local Russian company and they don't offer deep testing of Y DNA subclades. It is complicated to make 23andme test from my country due to complications with shipping of the biological material. I might try to do it in the future via Shipito for more deep testing.

baha
29-06-17, 01:11
Is that really called central-asia?

any way, IIRC the E-V13 as I read a few years ago was attributed to Macedonian troops via modern albania , as Macedonia ruled all of Albania from Alexanders father time until the roman-macedonian wars of 198BC-146BC
Yes it is the Central Asia except some parts on the south and west

baha
29-06-17, 07:07
There are two ways E-V13 could end up in Central Asia:

1- Greco Bactrain Kingdom

In the aftermath of Alexander The Great's death, his vast empire was divided among his generals, one of them, Seleucus Nicator, founded the Seleucid Empire, which controlled most of Alexander's Asian territory, including Central Asia. At a later date, Diodotus, the satrap of Bactria (and probably the surrounding provinces) founded the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom when he seceded from the Seleucid Empire around 250 BC and became King Diodotus I of Bactria.

This kingdom's population did include Greek and Macedonian colonists, soldiers and administrators, as well as natives, so E-V13 could end up in central Asia because of them.

If you test deep subclades of E-V13 and then turn out to cluster in a clade that include people from the Balkans, then you indeed descend from Greek or Macedonian settlers.

2- From Russia :

It is possible that E-V13 could end in central Asia from the time of the Russian Empire or the Soviet Union, I don't know if its possible to determine if this is true, because testing deep subclades that include Russians might also include other people from eastern Europe or the Balkans, in theory it should work but I don't think there are enough samples with detailed subclades, have you joined the E-V13 project or not ? that might help.

This results is from a local company that does this kind of genetic test. They do not test deep subclades as far as I know, just general Ydna/mydna and autosomal testing. Later I might do testing in American company for more profounded results

matbir
29-06-17, 19:38
I did DNA test and was surprised to know that my y DNA is e1b1b1a1b1a* which is ev 13 and is almost non existent in Central Asia as far as I know. Well, haplogroup E is found in Central Asia among Uzbeks at 2.5%, Uyghurs from Urumqi at 6.5% and among Tajiks at 3 %. Only Uzbek sample is good enough to say that it is real frequency, so it seems hat You are quite regular Uzbek in matter of Y haplogroup ;)

Here source of frequencies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_Central_and_Nort h_Asia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

BTW there is possibility that E came to central Asia with Indoeuropeans.

baha
29-06-17, 22:47
I will add autosomal testing results (the local Russian company that did the test only has samples of 36 diff ethnicities to compare with, it is possible that results from American DNA testing company may come a bit different and I wonder how accurate the actual testing is)
12.19 % Central Russia
9.6 % Pakistan
8.66 % Finland
6.98 % Ukranian
6.84 % East-Med, Levant
6.28 % North Caucasus
6.14 % Iberia
5.41 % Balkan
4.86 % Siberia
4.57 % Scotland
4.36 % Armenia
4.29 % Italy
2.85 % Hungary
2.52 % France
2.39 % India
2.33 % Northeast Asia
2.2 % Georgia
1.84 % England
1.16 % Oceania
1.1 % Africa
1 % Chuvash
0.98 % Malaysian
0.76 % South China
0.69 % Sardinia

baha
29-06-17, 23:14
I will add autosomal testing results (the local Russian company that did the test only has samples of 36 diff ethnicities to compare with, it is possible that results from American DNA testing company may come a bit different and I wonder how accurate the actual testing is)
12.19 % Central Russia
9.6 % Pakistan
8.66 % Finland
6.98 % Ukranian
6.84 % East-Med, Levant
6.28 % North Caucasus
6.14 % Iberia
5.41 % Balkan
4.86 % Siberia
4.57 % Scotland
4.36 % Armenia
4.29 % Italy
2.85 % Hungary
2.52 % France
2.39 % India
2.33 % Northeast Asia
2.2 % Georgia
1.84 % England
1.16 % Oceania
1.1 % Africa
1 % Chuvash
0.98 % Malaysian
0.76 % South China
0.69 % Sardinia

baha
30-06-17, 17:21
I will add autosomal testing results (the local Russian company that did the test only has samples of 36 diff ethnicities to compare with, it is possible that results from American DNA testing company may come a bit different and I wonder how accurate the actual testing is)
12.19 % Central Russia
9.6 % Pakistan
8.66 % Finland
6.98 % Ukranian
6.84 % East-Med, Levant
6.28 % North Caucasus
6.14 % Iberia
5.41 % Balkan
4.86 % Siberia
4.57 % Scotland
4.36 % Armenia
4.29 % Italy
2.85 % Hungary
2.52 % France
2.39 % India
2.33 % Northeast Asia
2.2 % Georgia
1.84 % England
1.16 % Oceania
1.1 % Africa
1 % Chuvash
0.98 % Malaysian
0.76 % South China
0.69 % Sardinia

SS1982
17-11-17, 18:27
I too an E-V13, and my father’s family are from northern India. I’ve yet to find any other northern indian E-V13.

IronSide
17-11-17, 23:36
I too an E-V13, and my father’s family are from northern India. I’ve yet to find any other northern indian E-V13.

Your case is interesting, if only we could know your deep subclade then maybe some theories will be confirmed, and others rejected.

eastara
10-12-17, 00:13
It seems one of the E-V13 branches found in the Middle east is S7461. For now it is found in Lebanon, among Druze, in Iraq and Saudi Arabia. Interesting, this subbranch is very widely spread, in Western Europe, England, Belgium and Sweden, on the Balkans among Bulgarians and also in the Middle East.
Similar distribution has the branch Y16729, it is found among Englishmen and Arabs an also in a single Bulgarian, who does not belong to any of those clusters.

blevins13
10-12-17, 00:37
It seems one of the E-V13 branches found in the Middle east is S7461. For now it is found in Lebanon, among Druze, in Iraq and Saudi Arabia. Interesting, this subbranch is very widely spread, in Western Europe, England, Belgium and Sweden, on the Balkans among Bulgarians and also in the Middle East.
Similar distribution has the branch Y16729, it is found among Englishmen and Arabs an also in a single Bulgarian, who does not belong to any of those clusters.

Very interesting


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

ardito
10-12-17, 04:47
My closest E-V13 matches (37 markers) on a popular testing website are all Tatar. With 12 markers, I have the usual suspects (Swiss, English, Greek, Albanian, Macedonian, Bulgar and even a few Saudi Arab matches). I am not that surprised about the Tatar part (my family is proud of its Central Asian roots), but about the E-V13: In Hungary, people usually think that E-V13 was there before the Hungarians or came during the Ottoman invasion with Christian refugees.

I found out that some Tatars claim descent from Soqrat Hakim, who came from Anatolia. This would explain a lot.

In addition to that, the Greek and later Venetian and Genoese colonies all over the Black Sea coast certainly left a genetic trace in the region that may have spilt to Usbekistan (baha) or even Northern India (SS1982). To not underestimate the power of trade (Silk Road...) and the mobility of horsemen in Central Eurasia.

In my personal case, I have to deal with a relatively recent match (could be within the genealogical timeframe) from Tatarstan. We had frequent Crimean Tatar invasions (last one in 1717), but it is quite the stretch from Tatarstan to Crimea as well. As a genealogist, I also know that the survival rate of an illegitimate child was close to zero from the mid-1600s (when the first birth registers were started) until the 1940s, so rape is a frequent, but not necessarily accurate conclusion. My ancestors most probably arrived to Hungary as Kypchaks/Cumanians.

Concerning the Usbek (baha) a Northern Indian (ss1982) cases, I think the Mongolian population policy might have had something to do with the diffusions. Anyway, I am happy to have found two distant Eastern E-V13 brothers :-)

IronSide
10-12-17, 13:42
It seems one of the E-V13 branches found in the Middle east is S7461. For now it is found in Lebanon, among Druze, in Iraq and Saudi Arabia. Interesting, this subbranch is very widely spread, in Western Europe, England, Belgium and Sweden, on the Balkans among Bulgarians and also in the Middle East.
Similar distribution has the branch Y16729, it is found among Englishmen and Arabs an also in a single Bulgarian, who does not belong to any of those clusters.

Interesting interesting .. I'd say our ancestors migrated together to the near east, three Indo-European language groups are said to be related and the last to separate from the proto language: 1- Indo Iranian 2- Armenian 3- Greek. E-V13 is young, 2100BC, but it's not just in Greece, its also in Iran, and some cases in the Levant and Arabia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan

So maybe the Mitanni had some of it.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0c/Near_East_1400_BCE.png/500px-Near_East_1400_BCE.png

axualonso
14-12-17, 15:26
Hello there. I m new to this forum, I am glad to be the part of your community. I am male from Uzbekistan, Bukhoro. I did DNA test and was surprised to know that my y DNA is e1b1b1a1b1a* which is ev 13 and is almost non existent in Central Asia as far as I know. I saw many ev13 maps and they don't include Central Asia at all. I think my case is very interesting and I was very surprised to have y DNA the same as most Kosovars Albanians. I don't know how Balkan y DNA settled in Uzbekistan.
My mtdna is k1a4a1e, because my mother is Central European.

Baha xush kelibsen qardosh.
Mening otim Emre. Men Turkiyaning Antalya shehrindenmen. Atam (Turkic Oghuz) Oghuzlarning Salur branchindan(Orta asiyadan Anatoliaga kelgen). Men hem E-V13 men. Menden boshka Turkiyada 100te test olgan kishidan 3tesi hem E-V13. 2tesi Oghuzlarning KAYI degen branchasindan. 1tesi BEGDILI degen branchasinden. BEGDILI anatoliaga Xorazmden kelgen. KAYI ese özü Usmanilar bilen Buhara tamanidan kelgen dep bir neche Turk tarixchilar yazgan. Sening e-mailing neme? Men sen bilen buning hokida yozishmak isteyapman. Chunki E-V13 Turkiya, Azerbaycan, Turkmenistanda hem bor. Sen E-V13ning balkonlikinga ishonma. Bu özü butun dunyoda bar bolgan bir haplogroup. Senge bu yerde roman askari orta asiyoga ketti undan keliyopsiz dep ayitarsa ishonma. Menge mail adresingi yoz men senge bu bilen bilgenim hemme nerseni anglotmakchiman.

axualonso
14-12-17, 15:35
Hello there. I m new to this forum, I am glad to be the part of your community. I am male from Uzbekistan, Bukhoro. I did DNA test and was surprised to know that my y DNA is e1b1b1a1b1a* which is ev 13 and is almost non existent in Central Asia as far as I know. I saw many ev13 maps and they don't include Central Asia at all. I think my case is very interesting and I was very surprised to have y DNA the same as most Kosovars Albanians. I don't know how Balkan y DNA settled in Uzbekistan.
My mtdna is k1a4a1e, because my mother is Central European.

Dear Baha,
I am from Antalya, Turkey. I am also E-V13. My father is from a tribe whose name is Üründü( Most probaly it belongs to Salur branch of Oghuz Turks). In Turkey there are total 100 people who had y-dna test and there are %5 ratio which are belong to E1b haplogroup. 4 of them are coming from Middle Asian Turkic Oghuz tribes. 1 of them is me. 2 of them is from KAYI tribe. 1 of them is from BEGDILI tribe.(BEGDILI is from Harezm by the way). Our family is all nomads living mountains of Anatolia and we dont mix any other nation and marriages are all inside the family. E-V13 is a very wide haplo and be sure that this haplo is migrated to Siberia 4000 BC befor Turkic nation is not present(Oghuzs, Karluks and Kipchaks). This haplo is present in Turkey, Turkmenistan, Azerbaycan, Kazakistan and even Uighurs. My and one of Kayı E-V13 family recorded at Ottoman Historical papers. We are sure that we came here from middle asia with Seljuk Oghuz Turks.

axualonso
14-12-17, 16:21
One day, the real history will be written which is E1b migrated to Balkans from Asia!

EREN48
14-12-17, 16:25
If e v13 is belong to balkans then why it is present at bulgarians which has a turkic root, and present at hungary which has turkic root, people say e v13 is spread out with alexander then why it is present in asia which is not occupied by alexander.

Ok, there are a lot in serbia, kosovo, albania and crotia which is occupied by Ottoman Empire and ottomans keep family records all families. And do you know that this haplo is found in a siberian kurgan of Proto-turks lived 500 bc where iskender was a vitamin. Is there any ancient e haplo detected in balkans. One more thing E haplo is son of DE and how can D is present in Aiunus, Japan? Can anybody explain this? Be sure E-V13 is not balkanic, it is Asiatic.

EREN48
14-12-17, 16:35
Hello there. I m new to this forum, I am glad to be the part of your community. I am male from Uzbekistan, Bukhoro. I did DNA test and was surprised to know that my y DNA is e1b1b1a1b1a* which is ev 13 and is almost non existent in Central Asia as far as I know. I saw many ev13 maps and they don't include Central Asia at all. I think my case is very interesting and I was very surprised to have y DNA the same as most Kosovars Albanians. I don't know how Balkan y DNA settled in Uzbekistan.
My mtdna is k1a4a1e, because my mother is Central European.

Baha. Ben Kayıyım. Atalarımın hepsi Kayı. Sen E-V13 Balkan kökenli yalanına inanma. Ben de E-V13üm. Bulgarlar da Ev 13 Macarlarda. İkisinin de kökü Türktür. Örneğin Bulgarlarda Kayılar vardır.

Atamız Atilla ve Avrupa Hunları ile E-V 13 Avrupaya ilkkez yayıldı. Asya Hun kurganında mezarında e1b1b1 örneği çıktı. Bunlar bize İskender dönemine ait 1 mezara ait E-V13 kanıtı gösterebilir mi ?

Dolgan Türklerini biliyor musun ? Onlarda da E1b1b1 var. Tuva Hakas Türklerinde de E1b1b1 var. Uygurlarda da E1b1b1 var. Amerika yerlileri North (Kuzey) Native Americanlarda da E1b1b1 var. Bu saydığım yerlere İskenderin askerleri mi gitti ?
İnanma bunların emparyalist yalanlarına. Bunlar değil mi dünyada Türk diye bir ırk yoktur diyen !

Johane Derite
14-12-17, 17:07
If e v13 is belong to balkans then why it is present at bulgarians which has a turkic root, and present at hungary which has turkic root, people say e v13 is spread out with alexander then why it is present in asia which is not occupied by alexander.

Ok, there are a lot in serbia, kosovo, albania and crotia which is occupied by Ottoman Empire and ottomans keep family records all families. And do you know that this haplo is found in a siberian kurgan of Proto-turks lived 500 bc where iskender was a vitamin. Is there any ancient e haplo detected in balkans.


Alexander was a vitamin?

https://i.imgur.com/TRfyPoL.png


https://i.imgur.com/rRZxZAk.png

Here you see that E1b L618 has been found in croatia in a 7500 year old skeleton.

Sorry to break it to you but the Ev13 in europe is not because of Turks XD

axualonso
14-12-17, 18:04
Do you know history? Turks came to balkans before christ! Dont think Turks as Ottomans! Ottomans was last migrated Turks to Balkan Do you know pechenegs? Do you know Cumans? Do you know Kimmers? Do you know Turcomans which was infantry soldiers of Alexander? Do you know one of the oldest map of the world which was drawn around 1000 BC in which east europe and upper balkans written as Turkia? Do you know turkic infantry soldiers of Iliria? Do you know turkic infantry soldiers of etrusks which occupied Italia? Your western history dont mention all these facts. First learn what is Turk. Turk has branches of Oghuz, Kuman and Kıpcaq. Ottomans was from Oghuz branch. First go and learn all of these then write an answer. There are Orhun Tablets in siberia which was written by Kokturks and read it first what Turks did. And last thing if we were christians your western history will mention all of these but unfortunately you know only what they write to you. Have you ever heard even Eskimo Inuits has this haplo? Anyway, bye...

Johane Derite
14-12-17, 18:07
Do you know history? Turks came to balkans before christ! Dont think Turks as Ottomans! Ottomans was last migrated Turks to Balkan Do you know pechenegs? Do you know Cumans? Do you know Kimmers? Do you know Turcomans which was infantry soldiers of Alexander? Do you know one of the oldest map of the world which was drawn around 1000 BC in which east europe and upper balkans written as Turkia? Do you know turkic infantry soldiers of Iliria? Do you know turkic infantry soldiers of etrusks which occupied Italia? Your western history dont mention all these facts. First learn what is Turk. Turk has branches of Oghuz, Kuman and Kıpcaq. Ottomans was from Oghuz branch. First go and learn all of these then write an answer. There are Orhun Tablets in siberia which was written by Kokturks and read it first what Turks did. And last thing if we were christians your western history will mention all of these but unfortunately you know only what they write to you. Have you ever heard even Eskimo Inuits has this haplo? Anyway, bye...

You first posted under this account: EREN48 (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/55360-EREN48)

And now you replied with : axualonso (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/55315-axualonso)


You just exposed yourself as a shill with multiple accounts.

axualonso
14-12-17, 18:18
No eren is my friend. He is siberian root turkic men and he has e v13 haplo! I am emre i have siberian turkic root of y dna and it is also e v13! He is my friend and i have the authority to reply for him! We Turks dont do such kind of things!

axualonso
14-12-17, 18:20
Ok another good question for you! Answer if you can! If DE is father of E and D haplos, then how D is present in Japan but E is Afrika?

Johane Derite
14-12-17, 18:34
No eren is my friend. He is siberian root turkic men and he has e v13 haplo! I am emre i have siberian turkic root of y dna and it is also e v13! He is my friend and i have the authority to reply for him! We Turks dont do such kind of things!

Wow, both Siberian root Turkic men with ev13. And you have the authority to reply for each other with conspicuously identical opinions. Am I dealing with real life clones?

Yes i'm sure that Turkic peoples spread Ev13 as west as Spain, and as north as Scandinavia.

As for DE, there is no mystery here, one went east and one west. Is the I haplogroup middle eastern because of J?

axualonso
14-12-17, 19:23
I dont L I E. Eren is my F R I E N D. Not clone! If you dont believe you csn ask europedia mamagement about ip which are from two different continients! Wait a little while. New research papers will be released soon about Balkans and E V 13. Soon you will learn the truth. I and J are different thing bro dont be ridiculous! DE- D and E mutations is cllasified YAP. E was born in Asia actually. Then migrated to west! Soon bro soon. You will learn the truth!

Johane Derite
14-12-17, 20:16
Wait a little while. New research papers will be released soon about Balkans and E V 13. DE- D and E mutations is cllasified YAP. E was born in Asia actually. Then migrated to west! Soon bro soon. You will learn the truth!

What are you basing this on seriously. Is Erdogan working hard to write some papers about european history now? XD

It literally makes no sense and doesn't fit any of the data. If you have EV13 its infinitely more likely that you have a balkan ancestor than that all the turkic peoples spread all over europe deep into spain, scandanavia and russia. Where are these miraculous turkic europeans that were there 7500 years ago?

This is the ethnicity of the grand viziers of ottoman empire. Notice that a VERY LARGE amount are Albanian, and then a lot are also europeans mainly from the balkans but some are Italians also.

You are looking at the situation the wrong way around I'm afraid:

https://i.imgur.com/XYUcxB2.jpg

Trojet
14-12-17, 20:54
I dont L I E. Eren is my F R I E N D. Not clone! If you dont believe you csn ask europedia mamagement about ip which are from two different continients! Wait a little while. New research papers will be released soon about Balkans and E V 13. Soon you will learn the truth. I and J are different thing bro dont be ridiculous! DE- D and E mutations is cllasified YAP. E was born in Asia actually. Then migrated to west! Soon bro soon. You will learn the truth!

I think you should dig in deeper into your own E-V13 Y-DNA, since it's evident by your posts that you have little to no clue about Y-DNA and genetics in general.
If not ancient, perhaps you have recent Balkan (Albanian) ancestors, as we're learning is the case with a few other "Turks" who have tested deeper.

axualonso
14-12-17, 21:03
Why you put erdoğan into conveesation? pepers will be released not from Turkey! Why are you actimg like this i cannot understand! I am not talking about Turkey! I am talking about E v 13 in eskimo, siberians, native amerikans, uygurs in china, south asians, tatars, bashkirs, nogais, dolgans, altaians, chuvashes, kazakhs, some mongolian clans!

Johane Derite
14-12-17, 21:11
Why you put erdoğan into conveesation? pepers will be released not from Turkey! Why are you actimg like this i cannot understand! I am not talking about Turkey! I am talking about E v 13 in eskimo, siberians, native amerikans, uygurs in china, south asians, tatars, bashkirs, nogais, dolgans, altaians, chuvashes, kazakhs, some mongolian clans!


Because the last couple of days you have been commenting in anything Ev13 posting about European Imperialist lies and the "truth" about ev13 being turkic. Where is this magic paper you are referencing?

DE split at least 53000 years ago and native americans are R1b more than they are ev13, if you are going to allude to papers then just link them. Tell us who has misinformed you

Yetos
14-12-17, 22:01
@ Axualonso

Hg E is not born in Europe.
but Africa,

nucleotid V-13 is born in Balkans

combining V-13 with PC etc etc
we are sure that is more possible Balkan born (including modern Turkey)
and secondary with very low chance to be from Levant.

now where exactly nucleotid V13 made first mutation/appearance
I do not know,
but all seem on a road from Levant to Europe,
and most possible is South or central and East balkans
the combo with PC1 gives birthplace of V-13 S-West parts of modern Bulgaria,
ok we play with Statistics and possibilities combination, to find the most possible
clearly late palaiolithic, or early Neolithic Balkanic mark.

I also stayed at the Konya sample,
and believe it as neolithic or chalkolithic
but is > 3000 years after the Adriatic sample
a mystery Hg

I think it is an HG that has nothing to with IE or Turkic populations,
except if Tocharians had it, and spread it to Altai
but I doupt


PS
personal view


Although

many scientists at the birth of genetics before 2 decades
claim that DE C and F originated in Asia
but that was the old theory

axualonso
14-12-17, 22:22
Autosomal and uniparental portraits of the native
populations of Sakha (Yakutia): implications for
the peopling of Northeast Eurasia

Y-chromosome analysis reveals genetic divergence and
new founding native lineages in Athapaskan- and
Eskimoan-speaking populations

http://suyun.info/userfiles/bulletin/2016-8/eng_Nogais2_20161009_8_%5B1_2%5D_3_BEHPS_2016_8.pd f

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/suyun/default.aspx?section=ycolorized


http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/uygurs.html



These are old evidences, google them and read. I cannot share new papers because it is not released officially yet. I cannot understand the hypothesis of alexander’s soldier issue! Cant some e v13 brought by alexander to balkans from asia? Is it impossible? How can it be in siberian populations? How can it be in eskimos? E v13 was born in asia and migrated to balkans. This is not a new opinion and not only mine! Many dna geneologists begun to think like this after the tests made by asian siberian and amerindian populations.

EREN48
14-12-17, 22:28
first you do not know history. Turks have changed the genetics and race structure of Europe since the ruling. Do not forget the Atilla and the European Huns !!! this information is written in heredot, psellios, jordanes. you are not presenting evidence. we present evidence. The e1B1B1 hablog is even in the escimo communities of North America. Did the Iskenderun warriors or the Africans go before 1492? You're making funny lies. Show us scientific evidence.

Johane Derite
14-12-17, 22:35
I cannot share new papers because it is not released officially yet. I cannot understand the hypothesis of alexander’s soldier issue! Cant some e v13 brought by alexander to balkans from asia?

What is this paper that is not official yet, that you have access to?

Johane Derite
14-12-17, 22:38
first you do not know history. Turks have changed the genetics and race structure of Europe since the ruling. Do not forget the Atilla and the European Huns !!! this information is written in heredot, psellios, jordanes. you are not presenting evidence. we present evidence. The e1B1B1 hablog is even in the escimo communities of North America. Did the Iskenderun warriors or the Africans go before 1492? You're making funny lies. Show us scientific evidence.


https://i.imgur.com/rRZxZAk.png

7500 years ago in the balkans. That is 5000 years before the Huns. Turkic people did not exist back then.

Yetos
14-12-17, 22:38
first you do not know history. Turks have changed the genetics and race structure of Europe since the ruling. Do not forget the Atilla and the European Huns !!! this information is written in heredot, psellios, jordanes. you are not presenting evidence. we present evidence. The e1B1B1 hablog is even in the escimo communities of North America. Did the Iskenderun warriors or the Africans go before 1492? You're making funny lies. Show us scientific evidence.


do not mess E with E-v13

V-13 appears at Europe and Druze

as for eskimo
I say to you, rather I ask you
why far North Europeans have more closer to African mt DNA rather Asian,
who brought African mtDNA to Lappi?

E V-13 was a mystery to me too
I even doupt the Italian universities,
I believed it was Levantine
but when I 've seen the Adriatic sample,
I realize that statistically
I realize that the combos gave quite good statistical results


The theory of E origination in Central East Asia was expressed at 1990's
it is old.
all the later pappers give a road from East Africa, Aithiopeia to the rest of world,
maybe a primitive E or a DE reached horn of Africa,
but from there starts a new story, the expand of E

and plz all E1b1 are not V-13

Maybe a new papper gives and help us all to open our eyes.


besides as question,
could some Islamic (Druze) priest spreadind Islam send it to Yakutsk?
or some Russian Orthodox?
except if you believe that Druze are also Turkic

I think it is like telling that because of 1 sample N1a found in modern Peloponese,
N1a is Greek.
or Yakutians are from Peloponesos
and the oposite if and as you like

Anyway waiting for the papper

axualonso
14-12-17, 23:04
Yetos thanks for your behaviour and detailed replys. I see a real profesional here finally. Maybe you read but my father is from a nomadic tribe migrated from siberia to here. Please do not mix us with regular ottomans. We were living isolated at mountains and marriages was inside always. Even our dialect is not like regular Turkish. It is like ancient siberian turkish language. Thats why i have 2 times higher siberian and altaian autosomal percentage than a regular turk. I have a friend in us who is working suprising y mt and autosomal dna in siberian altaian and mongolian populations. I hope research will finish soon and we will see new things.

axualonso
14-12-17, 23:25
N1a could be caused an pecheneg man by the way

Yetos
14-12-17, 23:27
axualonso

Turkic populations were part of silk road
and there were more than one silk roads
you will find also some genetical phainomena even in the most isolated tribes,
cause people travel merchandise devastate more times alone
than with an army or a nation

E hg is very old.
it is not only in subSaharan Africa but even in South Africa
so its existance in some Eskimo does not surprise me more
than the African mtDNA in North Europe

EREN48
15-12-17, 06:52
I do not want a grave sample of 4000 or 7000 years ago. be your convenience. show me a scientific article written about an example of an EV 13 in the grave of 2000 years ago.
I waiting it.

EREN48
15-12-17, 07:04
I can think of came in. Are you Europeans said Turks there is not !? Are you said The Turks are Mongol !?. You show scientific evidence to me. You dont hollow lies writing! I am not geneticist but i an historian. I know very good Turk of history and Europe history.

EREN48
15-12-17, 07:17
you are an example of Europeans lie: Adolf Hitler or Napoleon is E1B1B1..Really ? Wher is their bone or blood sample?
I want scientific evidence. you answer me through the articles ! Okey ?

EREN48
15-12-17, 08:05
For example Chuvas Turks
Chuvas Turks's hablogroup are %14 e1b1b1 and very chuvas people are EV13.
They are not Slavic or Balkanic.
They are Turkic.
Chuvas's country is idil-Volga area. That area is before of B.C. Bulgarians and Hungarians old country. Bulgarian, Hungarians, Europe Huns and Scithian are came to Europe, idil-Volga region of migration. Are you know this information ?

Dianatomia
15-12-17, 13:57
Whereas it is not impossible that E-V13 is present in Central Asia in very low quantities since 2000 years or so. It is highly unlikely that Turks are responsible form spreading this gene.

While at the same time, if someone from Turkey has E-V13, I would bet it's there primarily from the Greeks, since they colonized Anatolia massively in Ancient and Medieval times. Let me put it this way, given Anatolia's history it would be impossible for Anatolia not to have any E-V13. So it would be a delusion to think that Turks were the primary cariers of this gene rather than peoples in the Balkans.

Also many Albanians converted to Islam and were absorbed into the Ottoman mainframe. Ofcourse, I do not rule out that other Balkan peoples could have brought it there.

Someone mentioned the idea that Huns thousands of years ago brought E-V13 into Europe, then it was spread by Balkan peoples. So this would actually make modern Turks who have Balkan ancestry ancient Turks. That is a mental delusion.

EREN48
15-12-17, 14:09
Ok. Please you show me for example, 2000 the year prior to a Greek the grave of a EV13. show me the scientific evidence for these ideas. I am evidence offer to you. You dont show it . i waiting.

eastara
15-12-17, 14:28
For example Chuvas Turks
Chuvas Turks's hablogroup are %14 e1b1b1 and very chuvas people are EV13.
They are not Slavic or Balkanic.
They are Turkic.
Chuvas's country is idil-Volga area. That area is before of B.C. Bulgarians and Hungarians old country. Bulgarian, Hungarians, Europe Huns and Scithian are came to Europe, idil-Volga region of migration. Are you know this information ?

According to the Chuvashia DNA project, the V13 there obviously has a founder effect as their haplotypes are very close to each other. It is already known the subbranch and it is E-BY400, which is under the big branch Z5018->S2979. The Chuvash completely lack either basal V13 branches or great variability of haplotypes to ever presume V13 originated there.

Dianatomia
15-12-17, 14:41
Ok. Please you show me for example, 2000 the year prior to a Greek the grave of a EV13. show me the scientific evidence for these ideas. I am evidence offer to you. You dont show it . i waiting.

For many reasons, genetic, historical and otherwise the onus is upon you to prove that E-V13 was spread by Turks rather than peoples who hail from the Balkans. You are being ignorant. But we are trying to keep an open mind.

EREN48
15-12-17, 16:23
Hahahaahah this forum page very funny. Because there have very lier.
I want proof. you can not show me proof. you call it the Alexander period and the Greek period of instead. Are Alexander's soldiers gone to North America :) you are bullshit. I give you articles. You call it Iskender because of the evidence, you say greek. I am writing you historical facts. You are cursing me. you are real ignorant. Well, you have Alexander. well you have greek civilization. You are attaching everything to them. You are funny peoples :)

Trojet
15-12-17, 17:05
Hahahaahah this forum page very funny. Because there have very lier.
I want proof. you can not show me proof. you call it the Alexander period and the Greek period of instead. Are Alexander's soldiers gone to North America :) you are bullshit. I give you articles. You call it Iskender because of the evidence, you say greek. I am writing you historical facts. You are cursing me. you are real ignorant. Well, you have Alexander. well you have greek civilization. You are attaching everything to them. You are funny peoples :)

This guy deserves a ban.
People are still being open minded by responding to his and axualonso's nonsense. Yet he has the audacity to use these words...

Angela
15-12-17, 17:07
If somebody wants moderation on a thread, speak up and send a PM to one of the moderators.

I don't read all the posts and threads.

For everyone's information, no one is banned here for expressing opinions contrary to the consensus, or contrary to the scientific evidence, or contrary to those of the moderators, no matter how stupid they are...

However, name calling, insults, provocative, disruptive posts etc. result in infractions. When enough infractions accumulate, there is an automatic ban.

Trojet
15-12-17, 17:43
According to the Chuvashia DNA project, the V13 there obviously has a founder effect as their haplotypes are very close to each other. It is already known the subbranch and it is E-BY400, which is under the big branch Z5018->S2979. The Chuvash completely lack either basal V13 branches or great variability of haplotypes to ever presume V13 originated there.

Interesting, as I haven't looked into their E-V13.
What's also interesting is that J-L283, the other "Balkan" haplogroup, seems to be a classic founder effect in the same Volga region, all of it so far belonging to J-Z631>>Y12000, TMRCA ~1400 years, which is also at the "tail" of J-L283, and Maciamo has mentioned as "evidence" J-L283 expanded from there :grin:

EREN48
15-12-17, 19:10
You must share older a EV13 sample in Balkan (2000 year ago) then make me believe :)
But you haven't it and you say always the same tastes.

axualonso
16-12-17, 01:55
Actually i want also a scientific paper abot e v13 haplo, do anybody here have any link?

Yetos
16-12-17, 02:29
http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2011/10/25/1113061108.DCSupplemental/pnas.201113061SI.pdf#nameddest=SF1


Table 3.

Y-haplogroups inferred from Y-STR haplotypes and NRY-SNPs typing results for the male specimens






Y-STRs
Y-SNPs



Name
Cavity
No. of samples
DYS456
DYS389I
DYS390
DYS389II
DYS458
DYS19
DYS385
DYS393
DYS391
DYS439
DYS635
DYS392
GATA-H4
DYS437
DYS438
DYS448
Y-E1b1b1-M35.1
Y- E1b1b1a1b -V13
Y-G2-M287
Y-G2a-P15
Haplogroups


Ave01
II
3
15
12
(23)
(29)
18
15
(14/14)
13
10
11
(21)

12
16
10

G
G

T
G2a


Ave02
I
4
15
12
23

18
15
14/14
13
10
11
21
(11)
12
16
10
22
G
G

T
G2a


Ave03
III
3
15
12
23
29
18
15
14/14
13
10
11
21
11
12
16
10
(22)
G
G

T
G2a


Ave05
I
1
15
12
(23)
29
(18)
(15)
(14/14)
13
(10)
11


12
16

22
G


T
G2a


Ave06
II
1
15
12


18
(15)

13
(10)
(11)


12
(16)



G


G2a 99.6%


Ave07
II
1
16
13
24
(31)
16
13
16/19
13
(10)
11
22
11
10
(14)
10
20
C
A

C
E1b1b1a1b



Dashes denote that alleles could not be clearly amplified for the locus in question. Consensus Y-STR profiles were built after two amplifications from each DNA extract. Alleles in parentheses were observed just once. For the sample for which the Y haplogroup could not be confirmed by the typing of SNP, the determination of the haplogroup was obtained solely from the haplotype. The percentage of probability is shown in the last column. SNPs in bold are variants at concerned positions.



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3215063/





also

Abstract

Detailed population data were obtained on the distribution of novel biallelic markers that finely dissect the human Y-chromosome haplogroup E-M78. Among 6,501 Y chromosomes sampled in 81 human populations worldwide, we found 517 E-M78 chromosomes and assigned them to 10 subhaplogroups. Eleven microsatellite loci were used to further evaluate subhaplogroup internal diversification. The geographic and quantitative analyses of haplogroup and microsatellite diversity is strongly suggestive of a northeastern African origin of E-M78, with a corridor for bidirectional migrations between northeastern and eastern Africa (at least 2 episodes between 23.9-17.3 ky and 18.0-5.9 ky ago), trans-Mediterranean migrations directly from northern Africa to Europe (mainly in the last 13.0 ky), and flow from northeastern Africa to western Asia between 20.0 and 6.8 ky ago. A single clade within E-M78 (E-V13) highlights a range expansion in the Bronze Age of southeastern Europe, which is also detected by haplogroup J-M12. Phylogeography pattern of molecular radiation and coalescence estimates for both haplogroups are similar and reveal that the genetic landscape of this region is, to a large extent, the consequence of a recent population growth in situ rather than the result of a mere flow of western Asian migrants in the early Neolithic. Our results not only provide a refinement of previous evolutionary hypotheses but also well-defined time frames for past human movements both in northern/eastern Africa and western Eurasia.

from
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17351267




Any new genetic papper
signed by a genetist is always welcomed,

early theories are made to collapse by new theories
until the theory can not be collapsed and become a law

M-78 HAS AND HAS NOT V-13

AS FOR ALEXANDER THE GREAT

Firasat has found imported E-M78 in Wider Afganistan Pakistan etc
but not V-13

so Yes Alexander spread Balkanic genes in Asia
AND IS RECOGNED IN MANY TRIBES BUT IN SMALL % to be considered AS A HIGH OR A SERIOUS CONTRIBUTION

rafc
16-12-17, 12:45
According to the Chuvashia DNA project, the V13 there obviously has a founder effect as their haplotypes are very close to each other. It is already known the subbranch and it is E-BY400, which is under the big branch Z5018->S2979. The Chuvash completely lack either basal V13 branches or great variability of haplotypes to ever presume V13 originated there.

Eastara, I don't immediatly find a BY400 marker, can you check which group they are exactly?

axualonso
16-12-17, 12:55
Could you please tell me if you know the subgroup of Kazakhs?

axualonso
16-12-17, 13:00
I know two guys from Albania, one of them is J2 and the other one is E-V13. E-V13 one has %3 ancestral altaic aytosomal and %2 east asian autosomal but J2 one has zero for these two. How can we explain this stuation, E-V13 one has a Turk ancestry in his history am i right?

eastara
16-12-17, 15:18
Eastara, I don't immediatly find a BY400 marker, can you check which group they are exactly?
Sorry, i mistyped it, look for BY5400 on the FTDNA tree.

EREN48
16-12-17, 15:48
Hey guys. You will read it. Because you told is tale. I am bored of you. you ignorant. You must learn history after you will think and write.
Read it then learn.

Bulgars:
http://www.wikizero.org/index.php?q=aHR0cHM6Ly9lbi5tLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2 lraS9CdWxnYXJz

Scythians
http://www.wikizero.org/index.php?q=aHR0cHM6Ly9lbi5tLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2 lraS9QYW5ub25pYW5fQXZhcnM

Atilla of Huns
http://www.wikizero.org/index.php?q=aHR0cHM6Ly9lbi5tLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2 lraS9BdGlsbGFfdGhlX0h1bg

Pannonian Avars
http://www.wikizero.org/index.php?q=aHR0cHM6Ly9lbi5tLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2 lraS9TY3l0aGlhbnM

EV 13 is Turkic hablogroup.
Please dont write tale.

Your origin is not Alexander...
Your origins Turk :)
You are our children :)

Dont forget !
Balkan or Balcan is Turkish word :)

Zanatis
16-12-17, 16:18
Hey guys. You will read it. Because you told is tale. I am bored of you. you ignorant. You must learn history after you will think and write.
Read it then learn.

Bulgars:
http://www.wikizero.org/index.php?q=aHR0cHM6Ly9lbi5tLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2 lraS9CdWxnYXJz

Scythians
http://www.wikizero.org/index.php?q=aHR0cHM6Ly9lbi5tLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2 lraS9QYW5ub25pYW5fQXZhcnM

Atilla of Huns
http://www.wikizero.org/index.php?q=aHR0cHM6Ly9lbi5tLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2 lraS9BdGlsbGFfdGhlX0h1bg

Pannonian Avars
http://www.wikizero.org/index.php?q=aHR0cHM6Ly9lbi5tLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2 lraS9TY3l0aGlhbnM

EV 13 is Turkic hablogroup.
Please dont write tale.

Your origin is not Alexander...
Your origins Turk :)
You are our children :)

Dont forget !
Balkan or Balcan is Turkish word :)
Didn't you come across the Catalonian E sample of 5,000 BC yet? He's related to the E-V13 from Albania, Bosnia, Greece, etc. So yeah, you are one of "our chidren", unwanted one though.

Besides that, we are not and don't want to be related to you, don't look like you, and we consider it a tragedy the fact that millions of Albanians either settled there early or were expelled by the Greeks and Serbs to Turkey. Our country lost so many good people as one of our nation's father said that "The best among us were unfairly resettled in Turkey" as the Turks aimed to take specifically Albanians from the mountainous regions to use them as soldiers.

Trying not to be offensive (or at least directly), kindly note that according to the Albanian perception of ideal beauty you are very very unattractive and it's kind of a curse for anyone to look like you. Again, this is not an insult, it's simply a matter of taste and reality.

So please stop and bring your ideas of being our fathers elsewhere before you make us puke. Even your best looking celebrities are mostly Albanians or from the Balkans, or Circassians, filling your TV series full of actors with European features as if you're fooling anyone.

Maleth
16-12-17, 16:34
There are hardly any E's in the Turkic ftdna project,
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Turkic/default.aspx?section=yresults
let alone E-V13. I know its a small sample but if E-V13 is so evident as its being claimed I am sure one would get more then this.

This is different to the balkan samples who although also have a tiny sample its already indicative as to what the dna says about geographical distributions.https://www.familytreedna.com/public/balkangenetics?iframe=yresults

As things stand when one amalgamates it into history the strong indications are that E-V13 radiates from Balkans to Asia (also attributed to the very low percentages found in North Africa) mainly through Greek colonization (well known and documented part of history). The oldest EV-13 sample found so far is in northern Spain (7000ybp), however that does not mean it originated there.

axualonso
16-12-17, 17:42
Didn't you come across the Catalonian E sample of 5,000 BC yet? He's related to the E-V13 from Albania, Bosnia, Greece, etc. So yeah, you are one of "our chidren", unwanted one though.

Besides that, we are not and don't want to be related to you, don't look like you, and we consider it a tragedy the fact that millions of Albanians either settled there early or were expelled by the Greeks and Serbs to Turkey. Our country lost so many good people as one of our nation's father said that "The best among us were unfairly resettled in Turkey" as the Turks aimed to take specifically Albanians from the mountainous regions to use them as soldiers.

Trying not to be offensive (or at least directly), kindly note that according to the Albanian perception of ideal beauty you are very very unattractive and it's kind of a curse for anyone to look like you. Again, this is not an insult, it's simply a matter of taste and reality.

So please stop and bring your ideas of being our fathers elsewhere before you make us puke. Even your best looking celebrities are mostly Albanians or from the Balkans, or Circassians, filling your TV series full of actors with European features as if you're fooling anyone.

hey hey hey dont be racist dear albanian brother. many turkish people also stayed there because of serbs, greeks and also albanians. during ottoman periods albania was the strongest and most developed country in Europe. Other europeans was discussing if the world is smooth or spherical but Albanians was dealing with technological developments of Ottoman army. Albanians was the commanders of all balkans. One albanian prof said that if you were still in Ottoman Imperia, most probably Albania was powerful than Germany. Yes you are one of the most beatiful and handsome country in the world. All Turks know this and proud of Albanian beauty in Turkey. But history is history. Now we are two different country and we have good relationship. I guess Eren is wrote such kind of a thing because somebody wrote similar thing before. Anyway, you wrote like swaring to Turks but i still answering you with 'jeton shqiptari!'

Angela
16-12-17, 19:00
hey hey hey dont be racist dear albanian brother. many turkish people also stayed there because of serbs, greeks and also albanians. during ottoman periods albania was the strongest and most developed country in Europe. Other europeans was discussing if the world is smooth or spherical but Albanians was dealing with technological developments of Ottoman army. Albanians was the commanders of all balkans. One albanian prof said that if you were still in Ottoman Imperia, most probably Albania was powerful than Germany. Yes you are one of the most beatiful and handsome country in the world. All Turks know this and proud of Albanian beauty in Turkey. But history is history. Now we are two different country and we have good relationship. I guess Eren is wrote such kind of a thing because somebody wrote similar thing before. Anyway, you wrote like swaring to Turks but i still answering you with 'jeton shqiptari!'

I'm going to warn you once and once only. If you continue to try to disrupt and provoke other posters you're going to get banned like your buddy. Are we clear?

axualonso
16-12-17, 20:06
I'm going to warn you once and once only. If you continue to try to disrupt and provoke other posters you're going to get banned like your buddy. Are we clear?

Could you please tell me where is the provacation in my post? Dont be ridiculous man! Ok go ahead ban me asap.

axualonso
16-12-17, 20:10
Could you please tell me where is the provacation in my post? Dont be ridiculous man! Ok go ahead ban me asap.
Sorry i wrote man. Correct sentence is Dont be ridiculous sister...

Zanatis
16-12-17, 21:55
hey hey hey dont be racist dear albanian brother. many turkish people also stayed there because of serbs, greeks and also albanians. during ottoman periods albania was the strongest and most developed country in Europe. Other europeans was discussing if the world is smooth or spherical but Albanians was dealing with technological developments of Ottoman army. Albanians was the commanders of all balkans. One albanian prof said that if you were still in Ottoman Imperia, most probably Albania was powerful than Germany. Yes you are one of the most beatiful and handsome country in the world. All Turks know this and proud of Albanian beauty in Turkey. But history is history. Now we are two different country and we have good relationship. I guess Eren is wrote such kind of a thing because somebody wrote similar thing before. Anyway, you wrote like swaring to Turks but i still answering you with 'jeton shqiptari!'
I appreciate your kind words and the fact that you're trying to be polite. But let's get back to the things you wrote.

Albania was the most developed country of Europe? Sorry to disappoint you and your school books, but Albania was the shythole of Europe. Most of our population massacred and what remained either fled to Italy and Greece (mostly women and children as you managed to kill our men), while the rest of us who survived went up in the mountains and lived like savages for 500 bloody years.

We were once doing great for the European standards and that was mostly when we were under the influence of Venice, but the Ottomans burned to the ground all we had, cities, ports, churches. We could have had historical cities like Split and Kotor with Venice style buildings, but all was gone. All we have now is some Ottoman style underdeveloped towns that looked like shyt.

The Ottomans needed our ancestors as soldiers and did their best to keep us wild and uncivilized, on top of strategically forcing conversion. They could have done the same with Bulgarians and Greeks for instance, but no, they kept them Christian to collect more tax from them and to work as farmers, merchants, etc., while our ancestors were getting paid to do your dirty work by conquering others.

Every invader did that to us, like the best troops in the Roman Empire came from Illyricum, then the Byzantines (Albanians were given a type of autonomy with reduced taxes), then Venice, Naples, Spain, Holy Roman Empire, England, and France used the Albanian Stratioti as mercenaries, but that was nothing like what the Ottomans did.

They crippled our nation and we're still suffering the consequences of that backward shytty Empire that exploited us like no other.

You try to "buy" us with kind words like Albanians commanding the Balkans but we didn't command shyt. Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians, all were allowed to keep their religion, you respected their clergy and the Sultan gave them a place in his Divan as his council, while our ancestors were simple soldiers, Janissaries, and sometimes commanders. But screw that as those were personal achievements and not favours from the mighty Ottoman Empire as they were used against Albanians for 500 years. We didn't fight and killed Turks, we fought and killed each other and other fellow Balkanites recruited by the Ottomans.

That Albanian prof that said we would be more powerful than Germany is a big retarded joke who should leave Albania if he really exists and join your nation asap. How come Turkey isn't more powerful than Germany then?

And cut the crap with the beautiful race thing. We aren't anything special and above the other Balkanites or Mediterraneans. We're all equally beautiful and human, all of us, Serbs, Greeks, Bosnians, Croatians, Bulgarians, Romanians, and the Ottoman Empire was an intruder than screwed things up in the ways that even the nasty Roman Empire would be impressed, reducing us to a bunch of backward savages that Europe still looks down on us. Our heritage in the Balkans is whatever building survived and the delicious cevapi/kebapi. So tourists come, enjoy the nature, take a few snaps of either ancient abandoned cities and eat some oriental dishes mostly and leave. No sightseeing in that part of the world.

And 'jeton shqiptari' means the Albanian lives, which is a lie. The Albanian barely survived and we'll need a few more generations to recover from that 500 years of hell.

So don't call us brothers and sweeten the deal with those lovely words. Human to human we can all be brothers, politically, the exact opposite. We ain't politicians who pretend all is good for the sake of trade of common interest.

And the only sentence I got to stay on topic is that E-V13 didn't come with Turks :D

axualonso
16-12-17, 23:19
I appreciate your kind words and the fact that you're trying to be polite. But let's get back to the things you wrote.

Albania was the most developed country of Europe? Sorry to disappoint you and your school books, but Albania was the shythole of Europe. Most of our population massacred and what remained either fled to Italy and Greece (mostly women and children as you managed to kill our men), while the rest of us who survived went up in the mountains and lived like savages for 500 bloody years.

We were once doing great for the European standards and that was mostly when we were under the influence of Venice, but the Ottomans burned to the ground all we had, cities, ports, churches. We could have had historical cities like Split and Kotor with Venice style buildings, but all was gone. All we have now is some Ottoman style underdeveloped towns that looked like shyt.

The Ottomans needed our ancestors as soldiers and did their best to keep us wild and uncivilized, on top of strategically forcing conversion. They could have done the same with Bulgarians and Greeks for instance, but no, they kept them Christian to collect more tax from them and to work as farmers, merchants, etc., while our ancestors were getting paid to do your dirty work by conquering others.

Every invader did that to us, like the best troops in the Roman Empire came from Illyricum, then the Byzantines (Albanians were given a type of autonomy with reduced taxes), then Venice, Naples, Spain, Holy Roman Empire, England, and France used the Albanian Stratioti as mercenaries, but that was nothing like what the Ottomans did.

They crippled our nation and we're still suffering the consequences of that backward shytty Empire that exploited us like no other.

You try to "buy" us with kind words like Albanians commanding the Balkans but we didn't command shyt. Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians, all were allowed to keep their religion, you respected their clergy and the Sultan gave them a place in his Divan as his council, while our ancestors were simple soldiers, Janissaries, and sometimes commanders. But screw that as those were personal achievements and not favours from the mighty Ottoman Empire as they were used against Albanians for 500 years. We didn't fight and killed Turks, we fought and killed each other and other fellow Balkanites recruited by the Ottomans.

That Albanian prof that said we would be more powerful than Germany is a big retarded joke who should leave Albania if he really exists and join your nation asap. How come Turkey isn't more powerful than Germany then?

And cut the crap with the beautiful race thing. We aren't anything special and above the other Balkanites or Mediterraneans. We're all equally beautiful and human, all of us, Serbs, Greeks, Bosnians, Croatians, Bulgarians, Romanians, and the Ottoman Empire was an intruder than screwed things up in the ways that even the nasty Roman Empire would be impressed, reducing us to a bunch of backward savages that Europe still looks down on us. Our heritage in the Balkans is whatever building survived and the delicious cevapi/kebapi. So tourists come, enjoy the nature, take a few snaps of either ancient abandoned cities and eat some oriental dishes mostly and leave. No sightseeing in that part of the world.

And 'jeton shqiptari' means the Albanian lives, which is a lie. The Albanian barely survived and we'll need a few more generations to recover from that 500 years of hell.

So don't call us brothers and sweeten the deal with those lovely words. Human to human we can all be brothers, politically, the exact opposite. We ain't politicians who pretend all is good for the sake of trade of common interest.

And the only sentence I got to stay on topic is that E-V13 didn't come with Turks :D
Çok eziksin. Bu kadar ezik olma! Sen arnavut değilsin olamazsın. Benim yazdıklarımda senin için değil diğer milyonlarca benim kardeşim arnavutların. Türkçe yazdım sana cevap çünkü dedene nenene sor onlar bu dili biliyor bi zahmet sana ne yazdığımı anlatırlar. Kılıç artığısın Zanatis kılıç artığı. Senin soyunu kurutmamış osmanlı askeri şu an üzüldü bu yazdıkların yüzünden. Hayde maşallah dedene nenene...

Trojet
17-12-17, 00:14
Çok eziksin. Bu kadar ezik olma! Sen arnavut değilsin olamazsın. Benim yazdıklarımda senin için değil diğer milyonlarca benim kardeşim arnavutların. Türkçe yazdım sana cevap çünkü dedene nenene sor onlar bu dili biliyor bi zahmet sana ne yazdığımı anlatırlar. Kılıç artığısın Zanatis kılıç artığı. Senin soyunu kurutmamış osmanlı askeri şu an üzüldü bu yazdıkların yüzünden. Hayde maşallah dedene nenene...

Wow! Mods: Google translate...

axualonso
17-12-17, 00:51
I appreciate your kind words and the fact that you're trying to be polite. But let's get back to the things you wrote.

Albania was the most developed country of Europe? Sorry to disappoint you and your school books, but Albania was the shythole of Europe. Most of our population massacred and what remained either fled to Italy and Greece (mostly women and children as you managed to kill our men), while the rest of us who survived went up in the mountains and lived like savages for 500 bloody years.

We were once doing great for the European standards and that was mostly when we were under the influence of Venice, but the Ottomans burned to the ground all we had, cities, ports, churches. We could have had historical cities like Split and Kotor with Venice style buildings, but all was gone. All we have now is some Ottoman style underdeveloped towns that looked like shyt.

The Ottomans needed our ancestors as soldiers and did their best to keep us wild and uncivilized, on top of strategically forcing conversion. They could have done the same with Bulgarians and Greeks for instance, but no, they kept them Christian to collect more tax from them and to work as farmers, merchants, etc., while our ancestors were getting paid to do your dirty work by conquering others.

Every invader did that to us, like the best troops in the Roman Empire came from Illyricum, then the Byzantines (Albanians were given a type of autonomy with reduced taxes), then Venice, Naples, Spain, Holy Roman Empire, England, and France used the Albanian Stratioti as mercenaries, but that was nothing like what the Ottomans did.

They crippled our nation and we're still suffering the consequences of that backward shytty Empire that exploited us like no other.

You try to "buy" us with kind words like Albanians commanding the Balkans but we didn't command shyt. Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians, all were allowed to keep their religion, you respected their clergy and the Sultan gave them a place in his Divan as his council, while our ancestors were simple soldiers, Janissaries, and sometimes commanders. But screw that as those were personal achievements and not favours from the mighty Ottoman Empire as they were used against Albanians for 500 years. We didn't fight and killed Turks, we fought and killed each other and other fellow Balkanites recruited by the Ottomans.

That Albanian prof that said we would be more powerful than Germany is a big retarded joke who should leave Albania if he really exists and join your nation asap. How come Turkey isn't more powerful than Germany then?

And cut the crap with the beautiful race thing. We aren't anything special and above the other Balkanites or Mediterraneans. We're all equally beautiful and human, all of us, Serbs, Greeks, Bosnians, Croatians, Bulgarians, Romanians, and the Ottoman Empire was an intruder than screwed things up in the ways that even the nasty Roman Empire would be impressed, reducing us to a bunch of backward savages that Europe still looks down on us. Our heritage in the Balkans is whatever building survived and the delicious cevapi/kebapi. So tourists come, enjoy the nature, take a few snaps of either ancient abandoned cities and eat some oriental dishes mostly and leave. No sightseeing in that part of the world.

And 'jeton shqiptari' means the Albanian lives, which is a lie. The Albanian barely survived and we'll need a few more generations to recover from that 500 years of hell.

So don't call us brothers and sweeten the deal with those lovely words. Human to human we can all be brothers, politically, the exact opposite. We ain't politicians who pretend all is good for the sake of trade of common interest.

And the only sentence I got to stay on topic is that E-V13 didn't come with Turks :D

Ok young boy, you mentioned killing eachother, but you still killing greeks in your mind. I dont know why but you are an hard greek oppenent in your real life! You are talking about greek enemies with your teenager albanian school mates in your residancy foreign country( i know where but this info is between us dont worry). I have much more personal info of you in my hand but it is enough for now. After i learn your age by the way, i am stopping discussion with you because your age is not enough with my level of knowledge...

Salento
17-12-17, 03:34
I can’t tell if some of this posts are badly translated.
It happens been misunderstood.
I hope that’s the case.

Yetos
17-12-17, 07:40
@Zanatis

after Ibrahim of Parga the Greatest Vezir that Ottoman empire ever had
most of Grand Vezir were Albanians, and Bosnians
as also even today a quite good % of Turkish army were and are Albanians
and many famous high rank generals were and are Albanians.

so axualonso view has a heavy point of truth.
political and military Albanians were very high in the Sultan's gate after Suleiman the magnificent times.

it is known that Greco-Byzantines who turn to Turks were the bone structure of early Ottoman empire,
even as Valinde, Hatun etc
even Serbs like Mara Despoina Hatun.
even Croatians from Skradini
but after Suleiman mostly Albanians and Bosnians kept the high political and military offices till late Ottoman times
and even today.

offcourse the today terminations of nationality is difficult to expressed,
since many modern nationalities in ex Ottoman empire modern countries and modern Turkey
become citizenships, usually after 3rd generation old nationality is abbandoned
and 4rth generation is considered native.

blevins13
17-12-17, 12:29
Ok young boy, you mentioned killing eachother, but you still killing greeks in your mind. I dont know why but you are an hard greek oppenent in your real life! You are talking about greek enemies with your teenager albanian school mates in your residancy foreign country( i know where but this info is between us dont worry). I have much more personal info of you in my hand but it is enough for now. After i learn your age by the way, i am stopping discussion with you because your age is not enough with my level of knowledge...

This looks like a personal threat.... “I know where you live”


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blevins13
17-12-17, 12:49
@Zanatis

after Ibrahim of Parga the Greatest Vezir that Ottoman empire ever had
most of Grand Vezir were Albanians, and Bosnians
as also even today a quite good % of Turkish army were and are Albanians
and many famous high rank generals were and are Albanians.

so axualonso view has a heavy point of truth.
political and military Albanians were very high in the Sultan's gate after Suleiman the magnificent times.

it is known that Greco-Byzantines who turn to Turks were the bone structure of early Ottoman empire,
even as Valinde, Hatun etc
even Serbs like Mara Despoina Hatun.
even Croatians from Skradini
but after Suleiman mostly Albanians and Bosnians kept the high political and military offices till late Ottoman times
and even today.

offcourse the today terminations of nationality is difficult to expressed,
since many modern nationalities in ex Ottoman empire modern countries and modern Turkey
become citizenships, usually after 3rd generation old nationality is abbandoned
and 4rth generation is considered native.

The truth is that Albania was very poor and isolated after Ottoman Empire, it was worst than when it entered, compared to other states.


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blevins13
17-12-17, 12:57
Hey guys. You will read it. Because you told is tale. I am bored of you. you ignorant. You must learn history after you will think and write.
Read it then learn.

Bulgars:
http://www.wikizero.org/index.php?q=aHR0cHM6Ly9lbi5tLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2 lraS9CdWxnYXJz

Scythians
http://www.wikizero.org/index.php?q=aHR0cHM6Ly9lbi5tLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2 lraS9QYW5ub25pYW5fQXZhcnM

Atilla of Huns
http://www.wikizero.org/index.php?q=aHR0cHM6Ly9lbi5tLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2 lraS9BdGlsbGFfdGhlX0h1bg

Pannonian Avars
http://www.wikizero.org/index.php?q=aHR0cHM6Ly9lbi5tLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2 lraS9TY3l0aGlhbnM

EV 13 is Turkic hablogroup.
Please dont write tale.

Your origin is not Alexander...
Your origins Turk :)
You are our children :)

Dont forget !
Balkan or Balcan is Turkish word :)

Here we have a fellow Turk claiming more than they can chew.....


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ELIOV13
17-12-17, 14:20
Pity, because the discussion had begun in an interesting way and continued in pursuing unjust nationalisms.Returning to the topic, there is the certainty that wherever there were Greek colonists and then Macedonians in particular there are E-V13.Even in Egypt just before the Christian era was spoken Greek and also Cleopatra belonged to a Macedonian stock. V13 are also present there to witness this presence.Important was the presence of Greek colonies in Anatolia where he resided then the capital of the bizantin empire.In a few words: This our ancestor V13, born in the Balkans expanded through the Greek stock throughout the Mediterranean and not.Probably an ancient people who served as the vehicle were the Focei.Then the Macedonians.Of course also the illiri.Only two words to calm the minds.Good day.

davef
17-12-17, 16:02
This looks like a personal threat.... “I know where you live”

Threatening to brutally murder someone over a haplogroup thread on eupedia. Now i know I've seen it all.

Zanatis
17-12-17, 16:41
Ok young boy, you mentioned killing eachother, but you still killing greeks in your mind. I dont know why but you are an hard greek oppenent in your real life! You are talking about greek enemies with your teenager albanian school mates in your residancy foreign country( i know where but this info is between us dont worry). I have much more personal info of you in my hand but it is enough for now. After i learn your age by the way, i am stopping discussion with you because your age is not enough with my level of knowledge...
Gabel I don't give a shyt about what you know. Share them all here with everyone, my real name, my identity, my facebook page, my age.

Dear mods, I officially give him permission to do as he pleases and share my identity so please don't give him an infraction or ban him for that. I'd love to see how much he knows about me, as if I'm someone hiding behind a computer. And I'm almost 30 so I have no idea what you're on about.

Now you made me an enemy of Greece too? Funny how my playlists are full of Greek songs and I consider Greece probably the most beautiful country in the world. I criticize every country's politics and its retarded section of the population as much as I criticize my own, like the case of some Albanians who are nostalgic of the Ottoman Empire.


@Zanatis

after Ibrahim of Parga the Greatest Vezir that Ottoman empire ever had
most of Grand Vezir were Albanians, and Bosnians
as also even today a quite good % of Turkish army were and are Albanians
and many famous high rank generals were and are Albanians.

so axualonso view has a heavy point of truth.
political and military Albanians were very high in the Sultan's gate after Suleiman the magnificent times.

it is known that Greco-Byzantines who turn to Turks were the bone structure of early Ottoman empire,
even as Valinde, Hatun etc
even Serbs like Mara Despoina Hatun.
even Croatians from Skradini
but after Suleiman mostly Albanians and Bosnians kept the high political and military offices till late Ottoman times
and even today.

offcourse the today terminations of nationality is difficult to expressed,
since many modern nationalities in ex Ottoman empire modern countries and modern Turkey
become citizenships, usually after 3rd generation old nationality is abbandoned
and 4rth generation is considered native.
1) Ibrahim of Parga was Albanian too. Nice try.

2) As I said, Albanians/Arvanites, Serbs, Montenegrins, and Bosnians were used for their military skills and Greeks were used as doctors, translators, farmers, fishermen, you name it. Greeks were the ones that served the Ottomans the most by actually becoming Turks. Talk about being slaves and doing their chores in Turkish houses because serving as mercenaries isn't as bad.

3) Like I said, gaining political power is a personal achievement and has nothing to do with being Albanian. Being allowed to remain Christian, open Greek schools not only among Greek villages but also Albanian and Bulgarian ones.

Out of 3000 schools in Albania, 1500 were Greek, 1000 Turkish, 500 Serbian, 30 Aromanian, and only 1 Albania which was eventually closed after a few months. So talk about privileges and serving.




Threatening to brutally murder someone over a haplogroup thread on eupedia. Now i know I've seen it all.

No worries mate, they only act aggressive with Greeks and other non-Balkan Europeans. They know they will get severely brutalized by Albanians and Serbs everywhere in Europe.

Zanatis
17-12-17, 16:49
Double post...please delete

Angela
17-12-17, 17:04
Our new t-rolls are both banned, but only because I happened to see something when I scrolled down the recent activity thread.

You have to pm a moderator when these things happen.

Yetos
17-12-17, 17:59
Gabel I don't give a shyt about what you know. Share them all here with everyone, my real name, my identity, my facebook page, my age.

Dear mods, I officially give him permission to do as he pleases and share my identity so please don't give him an infraction or ban him for that. I'd love to see how much he knows about me, as if I'm someone hiding behind a computer. And I'm almost 30 so I have no idea what you're on about.

Now you made me an enemy of Greece too? Funny how my playlists are full of Greek songs and I consider Greece probably the most beautiful country in the world. I criticize every country's politics and its retarded section of the population as much as I criticize my own, like the case of some Albanians who are nostalgic of the Ottoman Empire.


1) Ibrahim of Parga was Albanian too. Nice try.

2) As I said, Albanians/Arvanites, Serbs, Montenegrins, and Bosnians were used for their military skills and Greeks were used as doctors, translators, farmers, fishermen, you name it. Greeks were the ones that served the Ottomans the most by actually becoming Turks. Talk about being slaves and doing their chores in Turkish houses because serving as mercenaries isn't as bad.

3) Like I said, gaining political power is a personal achievement and has nothing to do with being Albanian. Being allowed to remain Christian, open Greek schools not only among Greek villages but also Albanian and Bulgarian ones.

Out of 3000 schools in Albania, 1500 were Greek, 1000 Turkish, 500 Serbian, 30 Aromanian, and only 1 Albania which was eventually closed after a few months. So talk about privileges and serving.


No worries mate, they only act aggressive with Greeks and other non-Balkan Europeans. They know they will get severely brutalized by Albanians and Serbs everywhere in Europe.

wanted or not,

it is not personal achievement a continoues presence
in fact it is a relationship
until the power absorves
the political power of Albanians and Bosnians in the High Gate after 16nth century
there was era that was tremendous
even in the courts of law,
famous Kadi (Qadi) were from Albanian origin also
so your approach that only in military Albanians serve Ottomans is wrong,
many Albanian families devastate to Con/polis and other cities of Ottoman empire,
and since I am Greek and I know as you the Ottoman era
just think why and how the movement of HadjiBectash was in chase-struggled in minor Asia
but grew in Albania
the you realize the powers of Albanians to the High Gate




as for the son of Θεοφιλος
sorry we all know who and what he was.
contra his enemy who was Albanian

Angela
17-12-17, 18:17
wanted or not,

it is not personal achievement a continoues presence
in fact it is a relationship
until the power absorves

as for the son of Θεοφιλος
sorry we all know who and what he was.
contra his enemy who was Albanian

I just banned two people, and you want to continue it? I took care of it. Get back to E-V13, people!

Maybe this is where my husband gets that "testa dura", God help me.

Yetos
17-12-17, 18:24
I just banned two people, and you want to continue it? I took care of it. Get back to E-V13, people!

Maybe this is where my husband gets that "testa dura", God help me.


ok

i do not want to temp your υπομονη
but you have enough κρατος so in your testa dura recogn the civilized and the *****

Angela
17-12-17, 19:04
ok

i do not want to temp your υπομονη
but you have enough κρατος so in your testa dura recogn the civilized and the *****

I assure you that "ci vuole pazienza" is engraved on my forehead. :) I wouldn't have survived without it.

Zanatis
17-12-17, 19:34
I just banned two people, and you want to continue it? I took care of it. Get back to E-V13, people!

Maybe this is where my husband gets that "testa dura", God help me.
If your husband is Calabrian then I'd put all my money on Albanian genetics. It's not a coincidence that brigandage "flourished" in Calabria among the Arbereshe and then the Ndrangheta with one of the most influential families being the ndrina Albanese.

Back to the topic, there's nothing to discuss in here. E-V13 is not from Central Asia afaik and logically doesn't seem to be. But if it is, it definitely didn't come with Turks 8,000 years ago or more.

Angela
17-12-17, 21:27
If your husband is Calabrian then I'd put all my money on Albanian genetics. It's not a coincidence that brigandage "flourished" in Calabria among the Arbereshe and then the Ndrangheta with one of the most influential families being the ndrina Albanese.

Back to the topic, there's nothing to discuss in here. E-V13 is not from Central Asia afaik and logically doesn't seem to be. But if it is, it definitely didn't come with Turks 8,000 years ago or more.

Not totally Calabrian, but enough. Some of his ancestors spoke Griko until a couple of hundred years ago, and some lived very close to Arbereshe, so neither ancestry would surprise me. I was referring to the propensity to keep punching even when the other guy is down and out. The "war" continues forever. It also means that once having made a commitment to an idea, that idea will be held to sometimes in the face of all evidence and despite even severe consequence; it's taking "honor" or "pride" or whatever it is much too far, imo.

I certainly hope you're not saying that there is any propensity genetically to criminal behavior in either the Albanians or the Calabrians. If you were casting ethnic aspersions like that you'd get another infraction. Are we clear?

As to the substance of your second comment, I completely agree. T-rolls can say whatever they want. The evidence is clear.

blevins13
17-12-17, 21:29
I believe that E-v13 is the only Balkan haplogroup known so far.....its mutation probably has happened somewhere in the Danubian basin.....


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blevins13
17-12-17, 21:46
Our new t-rolls are both banned, but only because I happened to see something when I scrolled down the recent activity thread.

You have to pm a moderator when these things happen.

I like diversity, but our t-rolls were nut jobs....hopefully we will see some others with an open mind in the future....


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Zanatis
18-12-17, 02:47
I certainly hope you're not saying that there is any propensity genetically to criminal behavior in either the Albanians or the Calabrians. If you were casting ethnic aspersions like that you'd get another infraction. Are we clear?

That’s not what I meant and criminality was always defined by the ruling class.

They saw them as brigands, I see them as determined people defending their land and rights.

By that logic, all the heroes in the past were criminals. They defied the central system, were secretly organized, used violence, sacrificed the lives of many for their cause, etc.

It may appear illogical to many here, but violent behavior/aggression (not necessarily bad) is not spread equally among all the human ethnic groups. If it’s proven that a group of people can physically have a more muscular build, or being taller, there’s no reason to deny that certain groups produce on average more testosterone than others which in return it can lead to more mathematical geniuses, more skilled sportsmen, and so on.

You can find many counter examples for everything I said but I hope you get my point.

blevins13
18-12-17, 02:56
Çok eziksin. Bu kadar ezik olma! Sen arnavut değilsin olamazsın. Benim yazdıklarımda senin için değil diğer milyonlarca benim kardeşim arnavutların. Türkçe yazdım sana cevap çünkü dedene nenene sor onlar bu dili biliyor bi zahmet sana ne yazdığımı anlatırlar. Kılıç artığısın Zanatis kılıç artığı. Senin soyunu kurutmamış osmanlı askeri şu an üzüldü bu yazdıkların yüzünden. Hayde maşallah dedene nenene...

By the way who knows the meaning of this....even with google translate is not clear???


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Zanatis
18-12-17, 03:03
By the way who knows the meaning of this....even with google translate is not clear???


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Who cares man. That dedene nenene part screams mental problems.

Angela
18-12-17, 03:03
That’s not what I meant and criminality was always defined by the ruling class.

They saw them as brigands, I see them as determined people defending their land and rights.

By that logic, all the heroes in the past were criminals. They defied the central system, were secretly organized, used violence, sacrificed the lives of many for their cause, etc.

It may appear illogical to many here, but violent behavior/aggression (not necessarily bad) is not spread equally among all the human ethnic groups. If it’s proven that a group of people can physically have a more muscular build, or being taller, there’s no reason to deny that certain groups produce on average more testosterone than others which in return it can lead to more mathematical geniuses, more skilled sportsmen, and so on.

You can find many counter examples for everything I said but I hope you get my point.

I'll grant you that in the past "brigandage" may have been a response to oppressive, foreign governments or aristocracies, to government violence itself. I'll even grant you the excess "testosterone".

However, I have more than a layperson's knowledge of modern criminal organizations. Let me be absolutely clear: there is nothing whatsoever noble, nothing manly in any sense about men who traffic in drugs, sell vulnerable women's bodies, endanger the environment for their own gain, murder to protect their profits, and on and on, whether it is in the U.S. or in Europe or anywhere else. Those men deserve hell on earth for what they do, and I would be highly offended if any attempt whatsoever was made by anyone whomsoever to draw connections between those people and the many hardworking, decent people, their genetic kin in a broad sense, perhaps, whom they also victimized and continue to victimize.

Now, let's get back to E-V13.

Zanatis
18-12-17, 03:40
However, I have more than a layperson's knowledge of modern criminal organizations. Let me be absolutely clear: there is nothing whatsoever noble, nothing manly in any sense about men who traffic in drugs, sell vulnerable women's bodies, endanger the environment for their own gain, murder to protect their profits, and on and on, whether it is in the U.S. or in Europe or anywhere else. Those men deserve hell on earth for what they do, and I would be highly offended if any attempt whatsoever was made by anyone whomsoever to draw connections between those people and the many hardworking, decent people, their genetic kin in a broad sense, perhaps, whom they also victimized and continue to victimize.

Modern crimininality is usually the result of oppression and exploitation of certain regions. The lack of equal opportunities to put it in a better way.

Take ex-Yugoslavia as an example with their fantastic athletes all over the world. There’s barely any famous football club in Europe without players from ex-Yugoslavia. Decades ago they could have all been war machines.

davef
18-12-17, 04:02
Modern crimininality is usually the result of oppression and exploitation of certain regions. The lack of equal opportunities to put it in a better way.

Take ex-Yugoslavia as an example with their fantastic athletes all over the world. There’s barely any famous football club in Europe without players from ex-Yugoslavia. Decades ago they could have all been war machines.

:spiderman: we will go back to ev-13

Yetos
18-12-17, 04:03
ok to put some oil in fire
and give the 2 banned ones their right to apologise
the genetical theory at 1990's was giving E V-13 originated in central Asia
it was after 2004 and 2007 that change to middle East and balkans

blevins13
18-12-17, 12:10
Threatening to brutally murder someone over a haplogroup thread on eupedia. Now i know I've seen it all.


Strange because looks a lot like Italian mafia threat....I guess in Mediterranean people behave similarly....


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blevins13
18-12-17, 12:13
I just banned two people, and you want to continue it? I took care of it. Get back to E-V13, people!

Maybe this is where my husband gets that "testa dura", God help me.

This is a good observation, I have the same problem with my wife.....I guess this requires futures research if there is any relation between E-v13 mutation and testa dura behavior.....


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davef
18-12-17, 15:38
This is a good observation, I have the same problem with my wife.....I guess this requires futures research if there is any relation between E-v13 mutation and testa dura behavior.....


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But your profile says you're R1b something :spiderman:

blevins13
18-12-17, 16:22
But your profile says you're R1b something :spiderman:

My wife, her father is E-v13.....


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blevins13
18-12-17, 16:44
But your profile says you're R1b something :spiderman:

I am R1b BY611, like many Albanian in this group.....so far mostly connected with Albanians from Montenegro and some few Serbs as well in Big-Y and Y-full matches.


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rafc
26-12-17, 11:24
ok to put some oil in fire
and give the 2 banned ones their right to apologise
the genetical theory at 1990's was giving E V-13 originated in central Asia
it was after 2004 and 2007 that change to middle East and balkans

This seems rather odd. V13 was first discovered in 2006, and corresponded to an STR-pattern first identified in 2004. This is the paper where V13 was first identified: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16835895
Can you tell me which papers from the 90's mention V13?

Yetos
26-12-17, 12:39
This seems rather odd. V13 was first discovered in 2006, and corresponded to an STR-pattern first identified in 2004. This is the paper where V13 was first identified: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16835895
Can you tell me which papers from the 90's mention V13?

Hammer 1997

M168 in DE C F means Eurasian origin

Underhill 2015

but we speak about protoforms of DE and E
before horn of Africa


You are correct
we do not speak about origin of V-13 but about earlier forms of E
that might be originated in Asia
yet I do not share this idea (at least for now)

rafc
26-12-17, 14:38
Well deeper down there is a good case for the DE-split happening in Asia, and E actually migrating back to Africa, as D is only found in Asia. But that discussion is about a split that happened over 60k years ago. In any case E would have migrated back to Africa before it's descendants moved to the Levant, and from there to Europe.

ardito
03-02-18, 23:17
My closest E-V13 matches (37 markers) on a popular testing website are all Tatar. With 12 markers, I have the usual suspects (Swiss, English, Greek, Albanian, Macedonian, Bulgar and even a few Saudi Arab matches). I am not that surprised about the Tatar part (my family is proud of its Central Asian roots), but about the E-V13: In Hungary, people usually think that E-V13 was there before the Hungarians or came during the Ottoman invasion /edit: of the Balkans/ with Christian refugees.

I found out that some Tatars claim descent from Soqrat Hakim, who came from Anatolia. This would explain a lot.

In addition to that, the Greek and later Venetian and Genoese colonies all over the Black Sea coast certainly left a genetic trace in the region that may have spilt to Usbekistan (baha) or even Northern India (SS1982). Do not underestimate the power of trade (Silk Road...) and the mobility of horsemen in Central Eurasia.

In my personal case, I have to deal with a relatively recent match (could be within the genealogical timeframe) from Tatarstan. We had /edit: in Hungary/ frequent Crimean Tatar invasions (last one in 1717), but it is quite the stretch from Tatarstan to Crimea as well. As a genealogist, I also know that the survival rate of an illegitimate child was close to zero from the mid-1600s (when the first birth registers were started) until the 1940s, so rape is a frequent, but not necessarily accurate conclusion. My ancestors most probably arrived to Hungary as Kypchaks/Cumanians. /Edit: At least IMHO it is the only logical explanation./

Concerning the Usbek (baha) a Northern Indian (ss1982) cases, I think the Mongolian population policy might have had something to do with the diffusions. Anyway, I am happy to have found two distant Eastern E-V13 brothers :-)

OK, I haven't checked in for a while, the direction this thread took is quite shocking.
I probably answered all my questions myself, but is there anybody who could add to the topic?

kuzmosi
11-02-18, 21:31
It is very interesting!

I'm Ev13 - Z5017-Z17107 too from Hungary. My family name, Küzmös is a cuman family name. Awesome, the first cuman descendant, with whom I meet is EV-13 too!!!! At this time, all of the known cuman descendant (you and me) are EV-13. And nobody with Q Y chr. And the cumans came from Central Asia to Europe.

Piro Ilir
02-03-18, 16:52
Is that really called central-asia?

any way, IIRC the E-V13 as I read a few years ago was attributed to Macedonian troops via modern albania , as Macedonia ruled all of Albania from Alexanders father time until the roman-macedonian wars of 198BC-146BC

Alexander had many Thracian and Illyrian soldiers with him as well.
From Eupedia , Ev13 was part of bronze age IE warriors, and it ended up in a large area , which includes even the for mentioned

Piro Ilir
02-03-18, 18:47
There are hardly any E's in the Turkic ftdna project,
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Turkic/default.aspx?section=yresults
let alone E-V13. I know its a small sample but if E-V13 is so evident as its being claimed I am sure one would get more then this.
This is different to the balkan samples who although also have a tiny sample its already indicative as to what the dna says about geographical distributions.https://www.familytreedna.com/public/balkangenetics?iframe=yresults
As things stand when one amalgamates it into history the strong indications are that E-V13 radiates from Balkans to Asia (also attributed to the very low percentages found in North Africa) mainly through Greek colonization (well known and documented part of history). The oldest EV-13 sample found so far is in northern Spain (7000ybp), however that does not mean it originated there.
https://www.google.al/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_of_Egypt&ved=2ahUKEwi5neXlis7ZAhXNb1AKHWILAHgQFjAeegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw3USf_IsfXQDGO04q3zfjEQ
His elite troops were composed by ethnic Albanians

Piro Ilir
02-03-18, 19:00
Çok eziksin. Bu kadar ezik olma! Sen arnavut değilsin olamazsın. Benim yazdıklarımda senin için değil diğer milyonlarca benim kardeşim arnavutların. Türkçe yazdım sana cevap çünkü dedene nenene sor onlar bu dili biliyor bi zahmet sana ne yazdığımı anlatırlar. Kılıç artığısın Zanatis kılıç artığı. Senin soyunu kurutmamış osmanlı askeri şu an üzüldü bu yazdıkların yüzünden. Hayde maşallah dedene nenene...

Yxhym, ahrallym. Shejtan stykarachan , xhs xhan, ama aman. Stakafan ore xhan shejtan , ore hajdar istifar. Ychi ych, kara bytych

Piro Ilir
02-03-18, 19:11
@Zanatis

after Ibrahim of Parga the Greatest Vezir that Ottoman empire ever had
most of Grand Vezir were Albanians, and Bosnians
as also even today a quite good % of Turkish army were and are Albanians
and many famous high rank generals were and are Albanians.

so axualonso view has a heavy point of truth.
political and military Albanians were very high in the Sultan's gate after Suleiman the magnificent times.

it is known that Greco-Byzantines who turn to Turks were the bone structure of early Ottoman empire,
even as Valinde, Hatun etc
even Serbs like Mara Despoina Hatun.
even Croatians from Skradini
but after Suleiman mostly Albanians and Bosnians kept the high political and military offices till late Ottoman times
and even today.

offcourse the today terminations of nationality is difficult to expressed,
since many modern nationalities in ex Ottoman empire modern countries and modern Turkey
become citizenships, usually after 3rd generation old nationality is abbandoned
and 4rth generation is considered native.

Ethnic Albans aren't anymore serving at high ranks of Turkish army. Erdogan send them almost all in prison. However, it's pretty strange why he did it. My personal opinion is that he don't trust them due to their secular political views, meanwhile Erdogan is against Qemal Atatürk's heritage.

Angela
02-03-18, 19:20
Members are to keep Balkan politics out of these threads. Infractions have just recently been issued for insults arising from allowing politics and old grudges to enter the conversation. I don't want to give any more.

Piro Ilir
02-03-18, 19:26
I believe that E-v13 is the only Balkan haplogroup known so far.....its mutation probably has happened somewhere in the Danubian basin.....


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In Eupedia Ev13 is considered an hoplgroup of IE bronze age warriors. It spread with them , which means it didn't with Neolithic farmers whom were G2 mostly.

AdeoF
02-03-18, 20:50
Members are to keep Balkan politics out of these threads. Infractions have just recently been issued for insults arising from allowing politics and old grudges to enter the conversation. I don't want to give any more.
Now I understand why the modulators are becoming more stricter with all of that stuff from before here and other places.
Anyways what i know about the haplogroup E is that there are so many types of it from Africa to Europe and the migrations that created them. So no wonder there's a lot of talk about them.

BTW looking at the E-V13 map, nearly every European country has it so why are people talking about it in one area (this is supposed to be about the E-V13 is Asia!)

Angela
02-03-18, 21:16
In Eupedia Ev13 is considered an hoplgroup of IE bronze age warriors. It spread with them , which means it didn't with Neolithic farmers whom were G2 mostly.

We have found no Bronze Age warriors with E-V13, so there is no proof for that speculation. Even if some such samples were found, it would not change the fact that E-V13 probably came to Europe from the Near East. The trail seems to lead back to the southern Levant.

You might want to read some of the newer papers which give the y lines of ancient farmers from the Near East.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34850-Important-papers-for-newbies-to-Population-Genetics

eastara
03-03-18, 03:11
Regarding the E1b1b1 sample from Croatia, Balkans_Neolithic 6000 BC, here is what came out after the genomes were published, the sample is not V13, but an early split from L618 :

The raw data from the Mathieson etal. 2017 paper is now out. Here is what is there with respect to the L618-V13 sample I3948:
L618 SNPs found positive: PF2215, PF2223, CTS3287, CTS3728, L618, PF2229, Z1052/CTS5291, CTS5527, CTS6884, Z1055, CTS7273, CTS9086, CTS9223, PF224
L618 SNPs found negative: CTS1975, PF2252
L618-V13 Unresolved SNPs found positive: CTS6598
L618-V13 Unresolved SNPs found negative: Z1042/PF2209, FGC33595
V13 SNPs found negative: V13, L1024, CTS3849, CTS4993, Z1053/CTS5935, Z21284, Z21285, Z1056, FGC11422, Z1896

Sample I3948 appears to split the current L618 node since he is negative for CTS1975 and PF2252 so he represents a new sub branch of L618 that splits L618. We can make a crude estimate that this occurred prior 10240 ybp but without a more complete data set it won’t be very precise.His data also appears to resolve the placement of CTS6598 making it an L618 equivalent. So if anything the phylogeny becomes L618>CTS1975>V13 and it appears that he represents a sub branch not yet observed in the current population. We still have other L618+ V13- people who have not done NGS testing so who knows what we might discover.

Aspurg
04-03-18, 22:27
Now that you mention "asian V13". I belong to the clade E-Z17107 but I am negative to balkan clade Z38456 that is the hg of Albanians from Kaqinar.
E-Z17107* has a strong presence in the east, in fact already there are one Russian SNP confirmed as BY4467, another Russian on 111 markers connected to him but 2000+ years apart, one Ukrainian also very distant from them. And importantly YF11315 on Yfull is a Hungarian with Cuman surname. Another Hungarian very close to him. Third Hungarian family from Karcag that is close to me on STR values. It's a prominent family. And sculptor from this family made these wonderful Cuman statues in Karcag. :)




There is a 4th family from Hungary that is also possibly connected, they need to do SNP test.
I know very well who I am, my family is one of oldest Serbian families in the border region of Serbia and Montenegro. Traces of Cumans, Bolgars have been left for me to discover them. What's incredible about it is that they were left in an intelligent manner that implies certain knowledge no one could have had 500 years ago except a descendant of these order-bringing nomads. :)


I am connected to medieval Serbian family of Kumanichich, nobleman Novak Kumaničić was mentioned in 1422 as member of the court of Serbian ruler despote Stefan Lazarević. But our ancestry is from Bulgaria, we have close STR matches with Bulgarian, and some Serbs from anonymous studies from eastern Šopluk area, additionally one Macedonian. As their STR values are more diverse there is no doubt whatsoever my ancestors came from there no later than 700-800 years ago. In fact mixed Cuman-Bulgarian army did reach my area of Bijelo Polje in 1254 during one conflict between Dubrovnik and Serbia. Or alternatively there is some evidence that suggests connection to Darman and Kudelin. :)
Some villages nearby like Bolyare (Boyars - Bulgarian nobility) clearly indicate we were members of this class in Bulgaria.


Our most distant origin are Gelonians, Scythian tribe that was of Greek origin. And even for such a thing, I have clear evidence.:) Mentioned in 514 BC already. Alternatively perhaps from some Thraco-Cimmerian, if not Greek but less likely. There are actually three Greek Z38456 in a study of Greeks from Asia Minor, and they are not so close to each other on STR values (up to 43 markers) nor to Albanians for example.


Anyway I seem to have a haplotype from Kalmykia closer to me, and generally there are already mutliple E-Z17107* clades in the East all even 2500+ years apart from each other, and that is going to increase as there are 3 Georgians who seem to be E-Z17107*, and they also seem 2000+ years apart, one of them matches up with haplotype from North-Western Iran (Azeri on 37 markers). Plus Ukrainian has unique STR combination that is likely connected to one Uzbek. Also there is a Tatar who is not yet SNP tested, but he is 99.9 % E-Z17107.


I look forward profiling all these


Ah I see, my cousin kuzmosi has posted. :) So it derives from Cuman ( Köszömös < Cuman. küsemiš 'de- sired'). And as i recently discovered my surname too is at least partly is Cuman, it was a tribal name of sorts. My family preserved most, as we were close to the Serbian ruler, we had some "leasure" to do as "we please".
We are responsible for multiple Serbian monasteries but one of them reflects our "pagan" past. From 1485 census, reading is not totally safe because of diacritical dots, but Albanian historian Pulaha translated it as monastery Narta.:) This is of steppe-Iranian origin and Nart-sagas still exist on Caucasus in folklore of various ethnic groups.
We were Iranian speaking until 5th century, then we joined ranks of the great Attila or his successors, and were were subsequently "bulgarised". Actually incredibly there is evidence 500 years ago my ancestors seemed to have "honored" Attila as well.


I began suspecting years ago I might have "steppe" origin, because my family had some tradition of "having ten horses per man", I am so happy to find out it was justified.


So to baha, just because you're E-V13 that does not mean you have recent balkan origin. Have you done SNP's? If not you may send me your markers if you wish. I don't think there is anyone more "qualified" than me to guess subclades of E-V13 based on STR values, and suggest SNP's.:) And I know well some other haplogroups (such as R1a Z93, R1b-Z2103 etc.).

Piro Ilir
24-03-18, 16:16
We have found no Bronze Age warriors with E-V13, so there is no proof for that speculation. Even if some such samples were found, it would not change the fact that E-V13 probably came to Europe from the Near East. The trail seems to lead back to the southern Levant.

You might want to read some of the newer papers which give the y lines of ancient farmers from the Near East.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34850-Important-papers-for-newbies-to-Population-Genetics

Ev13 didn't came from near east . It was the E1b which came from near east or directly from north Africa. Ev13 originates somewhere in Europe.

Gheg
08-04-18, 06:54
Now that you mention "asian V13". I belong to the clade E-Z17107 but I am negative to balkan clade Z38456 that is the hg of Albanians from Kaqinar.
E-Z17107* has a strong presence in the east, in fact already there are one Russian SNP confirmed as BY4467, another Russian on 111 markers connected to him but 2000+ years apart, one Ukrainian also very distant from them. And importantly YF11315 on Yfull is a Hungarian with Cuman surname. Another Hungarian very close to him. Third Hungarian family from Karcag that is close to me on STR values. It's a prominent family. And sculptor from this family made these wonderful Cuman statues in Karcag. :)




There is a 4th family from Hungary that is also possibly connected, they need to do SNP test.
I know very well who I am, my family is one of oldest Serbian families in the border region of Serbia and Montenegro. Traces of Cumans, Bolgars have been left for me to discover them. What's incredible about it is that they were left in an intelligent manner that implies certain knowledge no one could have had 500 years ago except a descendant of these order-bringing nomads. :)


I am connected to medieval Serbian family of Kumanichich, nobleman Novak Kumaničić was mentioned in 1422 as member of the court of Serbian ruler despote Stefan Lazarević. But our ancestry is from Bulgaria, we have close STR matches with Bulgarian, and some Serbs from anonymous studies from eastern Šopluk area, additionally one Macedonian. As their STR values are more diverse there is no doubt whatsoever my ancestors came from there no later than 700-800 years ago. In fact mixed Cuman-Bulgarian army did reach my area of Bijelo Polje in 1254 during one conflict between Dubrovnik and Serbia. Or alternatively there is some evidence that suggests connection to Darman and Kudelin. :)
Some villages nearby like Bolyare (Boyars - Bulgarian nobility) clearly indicate we were members of this class in Bulgaria.


Our most distant origin are Gelonians, Scythian tribe that was of Greek origin. And even for such a thing, I have clear evidence.:) Mentioned in 514 BC already. Alternatively perhaps from some Thraco-Cimmerian, if not Greek but less likely. There are actually three Greek Z38456 in a study of Greeks from Asia Minor, and they are not so close to each other on STR values (up to 43 markers) nor to Albanians for example.


Anyway I seem to have a haplotype from Kalmykia closer to me, and generally there are already mutliple E-Z17107* clades in the East all even 2500+ years apart from each other, and that is going to increase as there are 3 Georgians who seem to be E-Z17107*, and they also seem 2000+ years apart, one of them matches up with haplotype from North-Western Iran (Azeri on 37 markers). Plus Ukrainian has unique STR combination that is likely connected to one Uzbek. Also there is a Tatar who is not yet SNP tested, but he is 99.9 % E-Z17107.


I look forward profiling all these


Ah I see, my cousin kuzmosi has posted. :) So it derives from Cuman ( Köszömös < Cuman. küsemiš 'de- sired'). And as i recently discovered my surname too is at least partly is Cuman, it was a tribal name of sorts. My family preserved most, as we were close to the Serbian ruler, we had some "leasure" to do as "we please".
We are responsible for multiple Serbian monasteries but one of them reflects our "pagan" past. From 1485 census, reading is not totally safe because of diacritical dots, but Albanian historian Pulaha translated it as monastery Narta.:) This is of steppe-Iranian origin and Nart-sagas still exist on Caucasus in folklore of various ethnic groups.
We were Iranian speaking until 5th century, then we joined ranks of the great Attila or his successors, and were were subsequently "bulgarised". Actually incredibly there is evidence 500 years ago my ancestors seemed to have "honored" Attila as well.


I began suspecting years ago I might have "steppe" origin, because my family had some tradition of "having ten horses per man", I am so happy to find out it was justified.


So to baha, just because you're E-V13 that does not mean you have recent balkan origin. Have you done SNP's? If not you may send me your markers if you wish. I don't think there is anyone more "qualified" than me to guess subclades of E-V13 based on STR values, and suggest SNP's.:) And I know well some other haplogroups (such as R1a Z93, R1b-Z2103 etc.).

Hi,

Can you provide the name or a link to the study with the three Z38456+ Greeks please?

Thanks

Leka
09-04-18, 15:35
I am connected to medieval Serbian family of Kumanichich, nobleman Novak Kumaničić was mentioned in 1422 as member of the court of Serbian ruler despote Stefan Lazarević. But our ancestry is from Bulgaria, we have close STR matches with Bulgarian, and some Serbs from anonymous studies from eastern Šopluk area, additionally one Macedonian. As their STR values are more diverse there is no doubt whatsoever my ancestors came from there no later than 700-800 years ago. In fact mixed Cuman-Bulgarian army did reach my area of Bijelo Polje in 1254 during one conflict between Dubrovnik and Serbia. Or alternatively there is some evidence that suggests connection to Darman and Kudelin. :)
Some villages nearby like Bolyare (Boyars - Bulgarian nobility) clearly indicate we were members of this class in Bulgaria
There seems to have been no peasants in Serbia. Almost every Serb family or a tribe (Montenegro) is connected one way or another to a nobility or a ruler from the medeival era. Fascinating stuff really.

Aspurg
11-04-18, 20:47
There’s seems to have been no peasants in Serbia. Almost every Serb family or a tribe (Montenegro) is connected one way or another to a nobility or a ruler from the medeival era. Fascinating stuff really.

There are indeed many claims, and some of them are partially true, but usually there is a well defined family that has certain ancestor and that he was real, for ex. the ancestor of Vasojevici. And there are many such clans with various haplogroups and subclades, Banjani, Drobnjaci, Ozrinici all of them being 500, 600, 700+ years old and mentioned in medieval documents.


But I have to make a distinction between my family and various Montenegrin clans claiming descend from certain individuals and feudal families from medieval timefrime, because it was at that time desired to be a descendant of Nemanjici, Brankovici, Altomanovici, Mrnjavcevici etc. so those stories were made up mostly and often with influence of the church, BUT what my ancestors claimed to descend from was something no one 500 years ago knew (except very very few people likely in oral tradition) even existed, and even so it would have been of no advantage at that time to claim such descent anyway and they did nevertheless.


There are actually very few Serb families that can say their ancestor was ktitor of church/monastery that dates to medieval times and that it had some importance then, and with written evidence to back it up.

Member of my family was mentioned to have died in 1645 as Ktitor (provider of funds for construction or reconstruction of an Orthodox church or monastery) of monastery/church Nikoljac. He is mentioned in an inscription at the back one Gospel that was coated in silver (again indicating he was wealthy along with being ktitor despite not being a muslim in Ottoman Empire). In Turkish census of 1485, our todays village (as mezra back then so just a piece of land) is mentioned as being a property of that monastery, as well as having "second" (which still stands) name. The phenomenon of "second name" is understood by historians to mean that a new clan came and took the land, and this land being property of the monastery our ancestor was benefactor 160 years later means our family were likely benefactors of the same monastery in 1485 or even a century earlier when it was built. Also I can prove connection of some communities to us, that actually served the Ottomans, and even had timars, one of those "Christian sipahis" who cooperated with Ottomans. We did it until Turko-Austrian wars around 1700, only after that time there was chaos and huge migration out of Lim river area, and migration from the south of clans such as Kuchi, Vasojevici etc.
Additionally very nearby there is a monastery Kumanica, there is a second monastery of Kumanica in Rudnik region connected to Kumaničić family. I've discovered some data recently to suggest my family had possessed this monastery in 16th century.
There are two families that are closely related to me, but they are from an unpublished study. But I can say thy have more distant origin from Peshter highlands and both of them seem connected to villages with Cuman onomastical traces. One is village Baljen, likely derived from Cuman name Balin/Baliq, the other from Krnja Jela, where there was a baština called Kuman in 16th century in addition to land called Kurilay.

There is a Bosniak family nearby also who are C-M48 but their very close matches are found among Turks from Anadolia and being muslim they are likely to descend from an Ottoman sipahi who descended from Seljuk Oghuz Turks.
But interesting to have in that Polimlje area such populations. I think someone from Prijepolje did an autosomal test recently and he had more East-Asian dna than is usual for western Balkans.


My own family did not have it easy always. In addition to losing benefits as well as origin traditions which existed before after 1700 and being reduced to а peasant-like status in 19th century, in 1330 in Dechani charter, there was on Kosovo a certain Cuman-like population that seems to be connected to us, looking at some specific names/surnames that appear near Bijelo Polje. They were Sokalniks, status that was specific and more rare. They had obligations of peasants but in lesser volume, had horses and also they had to serve monasteries, which is how I think my family became so affiliated with churches/monasteries and priest service. Also I read they might have been descended from people captured in war. Bulgarian-Cuman army in 1254 ransacked Bijelo Polje and apparently retreated. And due to personal name Kudelin occurring there as well as once it seems near Bijelo Polje, I seem have something to do with Darman and Kudelin who were defeated in 1291 by Serbs, name Darman/Dorman/Drman (Cuman name) wasn't that rare but Kudelin (possibly of East-Slavic origin) was extremely rare in the Balkans. So be it 1254 or 1291 it seems likely/possible my ancestors were prisoners initially.

So no, vast majority of Serbs doesn't have connection to some more known medieval feudal families, despite many claims but I happen do be one of those that does.

Aspurg
11-04-18, 20:56
Hi,

Can you provide the name or a link to the study with the three Z38456+ Greeks please?

Thanks

You can find it easily:
"The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean"

Important as there are more markers available. And there aren't too many Greeks on ftdna for example.

Here they are, I arregned markers in ftdna order and did appropriate edits on some markers (GATAH4 -1, DYS461 +1 etc.) to fit with ftdna values.

ID region defining marker
DYS393 DYS390 DYS394 DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389B DYS458 DYS459 DYS455 DYS454 DYS447 DYS437 DYS448 DYS449 DYS464 DYS460 YGATAH4 YCAII DYS456 DYS442 DYS438 DYS444 DYS446 DYS462 DYS452 DYS445 YGATAA10 DYS463 DYS441 GGAAT1B07 YGATAC4 DYS461n


F2 Smyrna V13
13 ___________________ 19 9-9 11 11 14 33 14-15.3-17-18 9 17 11 13 12 12 31 10 13 18 14 12 22 12


F49 Smyrna V13
13 24 13 10 16-18 11 12 13 13 11 17 21 9-9 11 11 25 14 20 32 14-15.3-17-17 9 12 19-21 17 11 10 13 13 12 31 10 13 18 14 11 22 12




F90 Phocaea V13
13 24 13 10 ____ 11 12 12 14 11 17 19 9-9 11 11 24 14 20 30 14-17-17-17 9 12 19-21 17 11 10 12 12 12 31 10 13 18 14 12 22 12




Unfortunately the F2 from Smyrna is missing some markers, but he still has dys458=19, values typical for Z38456 or to be more precise Z38456>BY4461
dys464cd=17-18 values typical in general for the entire Z17107

And as I recently discovered dys444=13 seems to be a value which defines Z38456 because there is another cluster of Z38456>BY4435 which includes two Swedes. All positive to Z38456 have dys444=13, we who are negative have standard value dys444=12.


And further balkan cluster BY4461 has it's specific trait of having very high value on dys458.


Interestingly F90 from Phocaea has gone backward on dys444 but he is obviously Z38456. He is missing dys385 but on other markers you see he has 8 differences on 40 markers in comparison to F49 from Smyrna. As I did consider they might have Arvanite origin so many differences suggest they are in Asia Minor for a longer time.


In comparison, in this study a few R1b BY611 are found and they seem of Arvanite origin because one even has full matchups with Albanians or only a few differences. Although Asia Minor Greeks are not really a population where one would expect plenty of Arvanites.


Of E-V13's, there are 13, one has only few markers and cannot be classified. Of others 8 are reliably CTS9320. These 3 are Z17107>Z38456, another 2 are CTS9320>Z17264>BY4348, two actually have this value dys444=13 typical for Z38456, however there exists a cluster under Z17264 which has also this value and they have closest matchups with Z17264 so they too are likely to be Z17264. One CTS9320 I couldn't classify yet.


Also one V13 is E-Z16663, which seems to be an older clade only present in Greeks in the Balkan region. And the remaining three seem S-7461, which is a clade common in Bulgaria as well as some in Greece, one of them is certainly distantly related to S-7461 Greek from Arcadia.





This Tatar I mentioned has dys444=13, which in combination of DYS413a=22 means he belongs to this clade found in Sweden Z38456>BY4435.
But I have another Russian, Ponomarev from Far East who is Z17107* distantly (1900 years) connected to Schepak Z17107>BY4467. So that makes it 3 Russians who have 111 STR markers and who are Z17107*.


Among Serbs I am the only Z17107*, and I calculated Z17107* makes up less than 0.1 % of Serbs. However of Russians from ftdna, Z17107* make up 0.2 %. Also there is a scientific study from Lvov, Ukraine which sampled 154 people. One V13 is Z17107* connected to Ukrainian from Dobromil, the other seems very likely connected to BY4467 Russian. That is 1.3 %. So percentage wise Z17107* is more common the East than among Serbs, counting in greater population there there might be easily 50+ times more Russians who are Z17107* than Serbs. This argument is often used when it comes to Slavic Balkan I2a Din, so why wouldn't I use it either? :)


And of course on 111 STR markers every one of those Russians is genetically closer to me than any Serbian (or Albanian for that matter) E-V13, which is something unusual for E-V13.



I also have to more seriously consider that according to some archaeological evidence Geloni might be of Cimmerian origin, Cimmerians were Iranian speaking but intermingled with Thracians (hence there are probably some eastern V13 clades of such origin), looking at one Ruthenian cluster of E-S26015/CTS2001 (Z16988-, Z17107-, Z17264-, S19928-), some CTS9320 clades might have been in Carpathians 3000 years ago. And that might include Z17107* and also Swedo-Tatar Z17107>Z38456>BY4435. Actually the origin of the entire CTS9320 might be some North-South out of Carpathian area early Iron age migration, some might have stayed in the North.
Also there is one Ossetian who might be E-Z17107*, but SNP is a must for such an unusual haplotype.
The Ossetian cluster of E-V13 seems closest to a Czech who is an isolated clade under Z5018, so it might be of Cimmerian origin. And that is likely also for Ossetian R1b Y5587 cluster.


Btw I'm not claiming I descend of Geloni because it might be convenient because of haplogroup, I'm claiming it because I know what my ancestors claimed to descend from 500-600 years ago and that particular clan descends from an Iranic tribe from Caucasus (hence those Georgians I expect to be E-Z17107*) and that tribe does have something to do with them. :)

andrijaperovic
17-05-18, 11:36
Hey guys! Not sure if I am in the right place, but wanted to get some insight. My mtdna is haplogroup K1b1c, branched off of K1 which originates from Middle East 20k years ago. Getting about 0.50% dna composition of siberian yakut, six-seven generations back. Wondering if anybody knows any migration or genealogical trends that support this evidence. Any insight is appreciated!

SS1982
18-06-18, 10:08
I did further SNP tests; and have been confirmed as E-Z5017. Much father’s family are from Northern India, and have not met anyone other E-V13 individual from this region.

Shetop
18-06-18, 19:44
I did further SNP tests; and have been confirmed as E-Z5017. Much father’s family are from Northern India, and have not met anyone other E-V13 individual from this region.

Very interesting!
Which SNP test have you done? Do you know if you are negative for known SNPs under the Z5017?

Btw, I'm also E-Z5017 but under it I have several more SNPs determined.

Evil Merodak
07-07-18, 19:44
It is true that E-V13 migrated from Asia. In fact they migrated more specifically from Persia. What I'm trying to tell you is that E-V13 is the original Persian identity. They were a people closely related to Negroids. Most of the true Persians, E-V13 carriers, held firm against the invading Greeks, carriers of haplogroup J, in the 3rd - 4th century BC but were defeated and taken captive mostly to the Balkans. That is why most E-V13 is concentrated there today. In the Balkans they took Caucasian wives and gradually lost their negroid features. During the Greek invasion, some rich Persians fled to the East, such as India. But the poorest stayed in Iran and the Middle East, while Greek settlers inflated the local population. The Persians' closest allies, the Medes (Caucasians & carriers of haplogroup H), were also taken captive by the Greeks but not in so large numbers. Most Medes fled to India. Those Medes who were captive in the Balkans are today called Romani (Gypsies). Few Persian remnants still exist in India.
It is worth noting that during the Greek invasion many Babylonians (carriers of haplogroup L and T) fled to India, while others who fought as mercenaries for the Persians and others who cooperated with the Persians were enslaved in the Balkans.
This is the true history that nobody will ever tell you!

Nik
07-07-18, 20:56
It is true that E-V13 migrated from Asia. In fact they migrated more specifically from Persia. What I'm trying to tell you is that E-V13 is the original Persian identity. They were a people closely related to Negroids. Most of the true Persians, E-V13 carriers, held firm against the invading Greeks, carriers of haplogroup J, in the 3rd - 4th century BC but were defeated and taken captive mostly to the Balkans. That is why most E-V13 is concentrated there today. In the Balkans they took Caucasian wives and gradually lost their negroid features. During the Greek invasion, some rich Persians fled to the East, such as India. But the poorest stayed in Iran and the Middle East, while Greek settlers inflated the local population. The Persians' closest allies, the Medes (Caucasians & carriers of haplogroup H), were also taken captive by the Greeks but not in so large numbers. Most Medes fled to India. Those Medes who were captive in the Balkans are today called Romani (Gypsies). Few Persian remnants still exist in India.
It is worth noting that during the Greek invasion many Babylonians (carriers of haplogroup L and T) fled to India, while others who fought as mercenaries for the Persians and others who cooperated with the Persians were enslaved in the Balkans.
This is the true history that nobody will ever tell you!
Question is where did the Orcs come from?

arctangent
19-09-18, 03:28
Also one V13 is E-Z16663, which seems to be an older clade only present in Greeks in the Balkan region. And the remaining three seem S-7461, which is a clade common in Bulgaria as well as some in Greece, one of them is certainly distantly related to S-7461 Greek from Arcadia.

While I haven't done a Big-Y yet on FTDNA, I have gotten as far as being classified E-Z16663. I came by the Eupedia forums to see if I could find any information on this relatively rare subclade, and it seems you're the only person to have ever mentioned it--at least as far as the forum search engine is concerned ;)

Edit to add: If I had searched for just "Z16663", I'd have seen all the hits. Oops.


As far as I know, my patrilineal ancestors were German, but I've hit a brick wall only 5 generations back, and see no mention of that 3rd great grandfather before he emigrated to the US. It's possible they'd only been in Germany a short time (as yDNA haplogroups go).