View Full Version : the western origin of Michelsberg farmers

06-07-17, 08:37

I didn't read it, just took a peek.
Looks like based on mtDNA of a few individuals, IMO not enough to make some firm conclusions

It seems to confirm though that the origin of Michelsberg lies in the Atlantic megalithic.

Fire Haired14
06-07-17, 14:32
Basically what the authors argue is that the Michelsberg farmers in East France/West Germany have more hunter gatherer mtDNA(U5) and affinity to Middle Neolithic mtDNA from the Paris Basin and are therefore not native to Central Europe but from somewhere further west.

There's no basis for their claim. I think they argued something so that their paper would be published. The only thing we can say about this Michelsberg mtDNA from eastern France is it is typical of Neolithic Europeans.

The N1a result makes me wonder if they were partially descended from eastern groups like LBK. Middle Neolithic/Chalcolithic Iberia and Britain didn't have any N1a. They also had lots more H3 than LBK and Neolithic Hungary.

06-07-17, 17:34
There's no basis for their claim.

some quotes:

Several hypotheses concerning the origin of the Michelsberg culture have been offered, but the one prevailing today (and first
introduced in 1959 [19]) considers an origin in the Paris Basin [20±22]. This "occidental hypothesis" was reinforced by the demonstration of an important rupture in pottery traditions between the previous Alsatian cultures and the Michelsberg, combined with the continuity of specific ceramic features with southwestern traditions (in the Paris Basin).

Interestingly, ceramic changes observed during the Michelsberg culture development have
been accompanied by the apparition of particular funerary practices involving inhumations
within circular pits. The mortuary practice of burying people in circular pits appeared simultaneously
in the Chasséen culture in the south of France and in the epi-Lengyel MuÈnchshoÈfen
culture of Lower Bavaria

Indeed, all descriptive analyses showed small genetic distances between the MICH and Middle Neolithic groups from France (Paris Basin, "MNF" group).

Subsequently or simultaneously, such a [extra] H-G legacy appeared in the Paris Basin during the Middle Neolithic (5,000±4,000 cal. BC, MNF = 14.6%). .... whereas the MICH group was the only group in Central Europe to present a significant H-G maternal lineage frequency (14.8%).

the CV group contained a strong proportion of haplogroups H (H, H1 and H3) and X, which were more common
in southern European and Paris Basin farmers

you might read a paper before to spew up over it...

Fire Haired14
06-07-17, 20:24
you might read a paper before to spew up over it...

Ha Ha, maybe I was a little too negative. But it is true that mtDNA can usually tell very little about ethnic-regional origins. I think authors of study's like this make big claims so their papers can get published. Yeah there are little indications in the mtDNA from Michelsberg culture that it originated further south but nothing really convincing.

Fire Haired14
06-07-17, 20:28
Michelberg results...

H=7 33%
H1, H3, H(xH1, H3)=5

K=4 19%

U5=3 15%(two contrimed U5b)

J1=2 10%

T2=2 10%

X=1 5%

W=1 5%

N1a=1 5%

Fire Haired14
06-07-17, 20:31
I found HVR1 matches for one of the K results. All of these matches aren't legitimate matches. The same mutation can pop up in multiple lineages. Some of the matches might be legit.

Michelberg culture K-16291t matches
Neolithic Scotland; K1a
Neolithic Spain; K1a
Saudi Arabia=1

06-07-17, 21:48
Interesting study, thanks..apparently peoples from France settled eastward during this period, a Western origin (Chassey) had been suggested even for the contemporaneous Lagozza cult.



06-07-17, 21:56
27 individuals mt-DNA is very few, when so diverse -

08-07-17, 12:51
just a detail: the Michelsberg people concerning phenotypes were considered as drifted towards ancient Mesolithic pops compared to LBK people - not to say they were "pure" mesolithic-like... I think the Meso elements sort they had was rather the SOM kind of types, associated by someones to Teviecoid types spite I doubt a little: they were very more "brutal" looking than Teviecoids of Brittany; (geogr. distribution: Eastern Parisian Bassin, Champagne, Lorraine, Eiifel region of Germany, Southern Wallonia I think) -

08-07-17, 21:26
Michelberg results...

H=7 33%
H1, H3, H(xH1, H3)=5

are you sure there is mtdna h3 go to table S.5
there are some h and h1 no h3 ...

28-09-17, 14:37
I'm almost sure Y-DNA would have been more HG oriented. This culture was megalithic and at the end of the megalithic cultures as at the end of other Neolithic cultures in Europe, it seems HG males (among them lot of Y-I2a2 but not only) were gaining strength... The presence among them of wellknown neolithic mt-DNA doesn't exclude a Parisian Bassin towards southern Germany move, all the other data converge towards this. the Parisian Bassin at those times were already a melting pot of LBKlike "danubian", Chassean (South Rhône) and HG people.