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digital_noise
26-03-19, 05:02
Do you have any opinions on those of us who are E-V13-BY14151/14160 who are not Greek but South Italian on the paternal side? Is it likely Greek migrations to the south of the country during the Magna Graecia days?

Ownstyler
26-03-19, 06:27
Haha hello cousin!

It makes sense what you're saying about the Vasojevic and obviously all those tribes in Montenegro are not related to each other as the legend says, but they all do come from Herzegovina and what's interesting is that in the case of Hoti I think they did find Vlachs when they came to their current location.

I hope more and more Greeks test for deeper clades together with Albanians and other Balkanites as we're currently seeing many interesting results.

The guy from Shop could be a Triballian, Moesian, Dardanian, etc. as that population gave birth to many Albanians as well but as always we'll have to wait and see if other people share the same clade.

Hoti found Albanian-speakers there, when they moved to where they are. Their own legends confirm this.

Some Montenegro clans may be from Herzegovina but probably not the majority, at least not from the clan-forming period 400-700 years ago. Many of these clans seem to relate to others in Montenegro or in Northern Albania.

Aspurg
26-03-19, 16:04
Do you have any opinions on those of us who are E-V13-BY14151/14160 who are not Greek but South Italian on the paternal side? Is it likely Greek migrations to the south of the country during the Magna Graecia days?

I think connection with Greek colonies is a possibility but I will be very cautious when it comes to E-V13-BY14151: because I still think V13 likely started its expansion within Cetina culture and I believe that can be seen best through E-Y37092.

I've seen one South Italian PH1246 looking haplotype with possible matches on Greek islands. His kit is N23509, he has dys607=13 + dys389=14-31 (modal for PH1246):
13 23 13 10 16-16 11 14 11 31 15 14 20 11 17 10 ?? N23509 Gizzeria Catanzaro Padovese
460=9, 607=13
13 23 13 10 16-17 11 14 11 31 ?? 14 ?? ?? ?? 10 ?? Sterea Ellada, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 32 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 ??-?? 11 14 11 31 15 14 20 11 16 10 22 Euboea, Greece [Greek]
460=10, 388=12, A10=13,
13 23 13 10 16-17 11 14 11 31 16 14 20 11 16 10 23 Albania [Albanian]

As you can see lot of Greek samples might cluster with him (due to back mutation at dys390 (23) + additionally dys439=11 (which is also modal for Vasojevici)), in addition to one Albanian, but in this instance because the island of Chios should be firmly Greek and this Albanian being isolated it could be another ancient Greek cluster. So I hope N23509 does some SNP and deeper tests..

However for the Italian YF16004 because he seems to have no matches in the Balkans he would fit as a Cetina people immigrant so imo likely presence there for 4000+ years. So Italian PH1246 are very useful for Cetina hypothesis about the origin of V13, because it did have outposts in Italy as well (Cetina pottery found in Altamura, Rodi Garganico, Coppa Nevigata..) like it did in Greece. CTS1273 on the other hand did not spread directly with that culture, it seems to have wandered off.

Trojet
26-03-19, 19:28
I think connection with Greek colonies is a possibility but I will be very cautious when it comes to E-V13-BY14151: because I still think V13 likely started its expansion within Cetina culture and I believe that can be seen best through E-Y37092.
I've seen one South Italian PH1246 looking haplotype with possible matches on Greek islands. His kit is N23509, he has dys607=13 + dys389=14-31 (modal for PH1246):
13 23 13 10 16-16 11 14 11 31 15 14 20 11 17 10 ?? N23509 Gizzeria Catanzaro Padovese
460=9, 607=13
13 23 13 10 16-17 11 14 11 31 ?? 14 ?? ?? ?? 10 ?? Sterea Ellada, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 32 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 ??-?? 11 14 11 31 15 14 20 11 16 10 22 Euboea, Greece [Greek]
460=10, 388=12, A10=13,
13 23 13 10 16-17 11 14 11 31 16 14 20 11 16 10 23 Albania [Albanian]
As you can see lot of Greek samples might cluster with him (due to back mutation at dys390 (23) + additionally dys439=11 (which is also modal for Vasojevici)), in addition to one Albanian, but in this instance because the island of Chios should be firmly Greek and this Albanian being isolated it could be another ancient Greek cluster. So I hope N23509 does some SNP and deeper tests..
However for the Italian YF16004 because he seems to have no matches in the Balkans he would fit as a Cetina people immigrant so imo likely presence there for 4000+ years. So Italian PH1246 are very useful for Cetina hypothesis about the origin of V13, because it did have outposts in Italy as well (Cetina pottery found in Altamura, Rodi Garganico, Coppa Nevigata..) like it did in Greece. CTS1273 on the other hand did not spread directly with that culture, it seems to have wandered off.

I'm starting to think that perhaps J-L283 might be a better fit for the Cetina Culture, or might've been the more common Y-haplogroup, especially since now it has also appeared in LBA Sardinia. (PS. Since J-L283 wasn't found there from an earlier period, this would be consistent with the idea that it didn't expand from Sardinia ;) but this is besides the point).

Anyways, looking forward to the upcoming large Italian aDNA study, and see what we get there.

digital_noise
26-03-19, 19:33
I think connection with Greek colonies is a possibility but I will be very cautious when it comes to E-V13-BY14151: because I still think V13 likely started its expansion within Cetina culture and I believe that can be seen best through E-Y37092.

I've seen one South Italian PH1246 looking haplotype with possible matches on Greek islands. His kit is N23509, he has dys607=13 + dys389=14-31 (modal for PH1246):
13 23 13 10 16-16 11 14 11 31 15 14 20 11 17 10 ?? N23509 Gizzeria Catanzaro Padovese
460=9, 607=13
13 23 13 10 16-17 11 14 11 31 ?? 14 ?? ?? ?? 10 ?? Sterea Ellada, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 31 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 16-17 ?? 14 11 32 ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Chios, Greece [Greek]
13 23 13 10 ??-?? 11 14 11 31 15 14 20 11 16 10 22 Euboea, Greece [Greek]
460=10, 388=12, A10=13,
13 23 13 10 16-17 11 14 11 31 16 14 20 11 16 10 23 Albania [Albanian]

As you can see lot of Greek samples might cluster with him (due to back mutation at dys390 (23) + additionally dys439=11 (which is also modal for Vasojevici)), in addition to one Albanian, but in this instance because the island of Chios should be firmly Greek and this Albanian being isolated it could be another ancient Greek cluster. So I hope N23509 does some SNP and deeper tests..

However for the Italian YF16004 because he seems to have no matches in the Balkans he would fit as a Cetina people immigrant so imo likely presence there for 4000+ years. So Italian PH1246 are very useful for Cetina hypothesis about the origin of V13, because it did have outposts in Italy as well (Cetina pottery found in Altamura, Rodi Garganico, Coppa Nevigata..) like it did in Greece. CTS1273 on the other hand did not spread directly with that culture, it seems to have wandered off.
YF16004 is my kit :)

Aspurg
27-03-19, 00:38
I'm starting to think that perhaps J-L283 might be a better fit for the Cetina Culture, or might've been the more common Y-haplogroup, especially since now it has also appeared in LBA Sardinia. (PS. Since J-L283 wasn't found there from an earlier period, this would be consistent with the idea that it didn't expand from Sardinia ;) but this is besides the point).

Anyways, looking forward to the upcoming large Italian aDNA study, and see what we get there.

Well J-L283 might have been involved too with Cetina as Rafc suggested. But there are some problems for that: 1) Dalmatian L283 is not from Cetina but Dinara/Posusje culture, according to views of archaeologists these two had different origins, although they coexisted for a period of time, they mostly had limited trade contacts. And actually both had connections with Italy.

Going by new Sardinian samples, L283 is Nuragic there, it's one of new hg's though it's somewhat mysterious why these basal clades are so common there. I think indeed Sardinian L283 might be related to Sherden or Sea Peoples as Johane Derite suggested earlier. I guess some L283's might be found in that study too.

E-V13 is a great fit for Cetina because of the fact that it developed in precisely the area where E-L618 was found in Early Neolithic and it had certainly this element. Also Cardial Neolithic does have connection with L618, other continental neolithic cultures could have hardly had E-V13 (also based on archaeological evidence) except possibly Trypillia where some M78 was found. The other reason is that in the Bubanj Hum III and Armenochori cultures which are partially derived from Cetina (though not being Cetina), ware similar to Minyan were found, and Minyan ware is associated with early speakers of Greek. E-V13 is common and diverse in Greece, L283 much less so, and a number of those are Vlach/Arvanite, likely more so than E-V13.

Problem for Cetina is the fact that E-CTS1273 seems to have appeared in Eastern Balkans in BA and it wasn't there before (because there is hardly any PH1246 there and likely won't be either based on STR's), so this branch could have hardly expanded with classic Cetina culture but part might have with Bubanj Hum III etc.. There are some other reasons why at least basal V13 is likely involved with Cetina..




YF16004 is my kit :)

I remember you, I think you should look for these haplotypes with dys385b=21. People like Swiss 63695, English 71088 or even Russian 228894 (he has 20), or Albanian IN43874 who has 21 also. None of them are close to you but you might share an SNP with some of those based on that STR.

Dema
28-03-19, 03:19
Aspurg, you have done good job on isolating clades found among Greeks. I absolutely believe that even tho i didnt double check them. But i have to say that i am a bit critic over some of thesis you have put out there.
I know that you are fair guy and you want to find the truth going by the scientific facts. Just i am afraid that you did some non intentional technical mistakes when trying to interpret origin of some specific E-v13 clades in this case. And that is not as easy to do as it seems in beginning, we can try to label them like that but there will be a way too high chance of mistake when looking realistically at possibilities. Looking at living samples and trying to conclude their origin in that way is very risky.
My critics go mostly first to methodology used in order to try to find time of arrival, in this case going strictly by TMRCA (you concluded LBA-EIA, i say its more likely EBA I II III, just as all other IE, so not a big difference just lower TMRCA makes you think its later arrival which is not and does not have to be a case ). Second is fact that ancient Greek clades do not represent modern Greek clades its very hard to know the origin going by TMRCA and living samples. Also i dont understand why you only included Arvanite and Vlach possibility. Arvanite can only confuse you because its only one group of Albanians while you cant label all Albanians in Greece as Arvanites. They can be Cameria Albanians, Northern or Western ones. Also we can conclude that Illyrians but Albanians also migrated to Greek since ancient times, so to label all groups Arvanite i think its wrong. What is more fair is to label Arvanite only these that are aprox 1000 years or less GD from Albanians as Arvanites or these that declare as Arvanites but to avoid all these possibilities and still stay on the track i believe that label: Albano-Illyrian origin would suffice for all Albanian related groups no matter time or arrival and origin. Second are Vlachs so, i dont see any sense in labeling some group as Vlach only except if its not actual Aromun group with TMRCA no larger then 1000 years (when Aromanian and Romanian split one from another). So when Vlach/Aromun etnos probably started to live also separate from Romanian. But still, going by major Aromun study Bosch et al, they concluded (which is clear to see) that there is in fact no "Vlach origin", they are not even connected to Italians for that matter and genetically it could not be proven. But rather, they are latinized natives (Indoeuropeans, paleo-balkan population), more specifically mix of ancient Greeks, Illyrians, Thracians and later arriving Slavs. So even tho isolated, Aromuns are still native to the Balkans and are most likely one of previously mentioned origin.

So groups that would make more sense are: Greek, Thracian, Italic, Dacian and Albano-Illyrian. Furthermore any of them could have become a Vlach but i would label Vlach only these that are at maximum of 1000 years far from Aromuns. But more further away both Romanian and Aromanian sample could be Dacian, Thracian or Illyrian, even Hellenic in origin. Cetina label was also very speculative.
I think that most fair label for all these groups is Paleo-Balkan IE origin which would include ancient Greeks, Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians and other groups.. Even Italic tribes.

What really interests me is how do you interpret your own line Aspurg? like you pointed origin in these Greek lines, and giving the possibilities you offered you would have to be Arvanite or Vlach, but i think truth is something else. So i would like to hear your explanation about your line giving that you are also E-v13 from the Balkans? Do you match Lakic, you are Bosnian Serb right?

Dema
28-03-19, 05:12
So yes, i believe that L618 and E-v13 are both Neolithic European haplogroups. L618 found in Neolithic Spain and Balkans, and both L618 and V13 having exclusively European distribution must have belong to Neolithic Europe and by origin and language they were Afro-Asiatic also known as Hamito Semitic, furthermore they for sure mixed with Europeans at that time groups like I1, I2, and other paleolithic remains. Furthermore possibly forming a separate language like Basques is today or continued a version of Afro Asiatic language brought by Middle East. Furthermore they would be isolated or rare European population until only one part of these Neolithic E-v13s joins Proto IEs. Specifically BY6550, Y30977, and CTS5856. TMRCA 4800 ybp. And they would become as Maciamo says probably a major elite force among IE Bronze Age expansion.

Therefore even tho all living E-v13 today is out of IE BA expansion with most likely having their main base setup at Balkans. Their prior origin is out of N Africa, thru Middle East into the Europe probably 12 000 years ago (L618 formed date) speaking some sort of Afro-Asiatic>Semitic (Hamito Semitic) language. They are lost in bottleneck today, just like plenty of other paleolithic and neolithic groups with IE arrival. Major loss in TMRCA can be seen in haplogroup I1, but we know many other European Neolithic haplogroups reduced while IE BA haplogroups expanded.

Dema
28-03-19, 06:20
A very high quality post with lots to reflect on. The Dorian invasions that put an end to the Mycenean culture are being confirmed basically on the y-dna level also. Linguist Kretschmer believed the Dorian invasions and Sea Peoples to be either the same event or intertwined somehow.


With all due respect, i dont see how this would prove anything, since both Dorians and Myceneans had E-v13. Modern display of Albanian or for this matter Greek lines is just a product of centuries of bottlenecks (dying without leaving progeny) and founder effects, rapid expansions of whats left and so on. Also mutual way of assimilation and migrations. Dorians and both Myceneans were Ancient Greeks and Indo-Europeans and for sure had E-v13, there was plenty of wars later, Alexander the Great, Persians, Illyrians and so on, you cant look at modern haplos of living people and their TMRCA and conclude that it proves something about some people 3000 years ago...



Haha hello cousin!

It makes sense what you're saying about the Vasojevic and obviously all those tribes in Montenegro are not related to each other as the legend says, but they all do come from Herzegovina


He never said that but rather he made a question and i think this question suffices, but your answer also to be quoted into a entry post of new thread about this topic.
I only dont understand why do not Albanian admins primarily Flor and Skerdi interact when someone writes such a disinformation's based on a weak knowledge.

Nik
28-03-19, 18:30
With all due respect, i dont see how this would prove anything, since both Dorians and Myceneans had E-v13. Modern display of Albanian or for this matter Greek lines is just a product of centuries of bottlenecks (dying without leaving progeny) and founder effects, rapid expansions of whats left and so on. Also mutual way of assimilation and migrations. Dorians and both Myceneans were Ancient Greeks and Indo-Europeans and for sure had E-v13, there was plenty of wars later, Alexander the Great, Persians, Illyrians and so on, you cant look at modern haplos of living people and their TMRCA and conclude that it proves something about some people 3000 years ago...


He never said that but rather he made a question and i think this question suffices, but your answer also to be quoted into a entry post of new thread about this topic.
I only dont understand why do not Albanian admins primarily Flor and Skerdi interact when someone writes such a disinformation's based on a weak knowledge.
What in hell are you talking about? Just PM me in Albanian.

I simply said that what he said about Vasojevic makes sense and that now we finally have evidence that Hoti, Krasniqi, Vasojevic, etc. were not brothers. Where's the disinformation?

Besides, you're the guy (Dema of The Apricity) that claims that E-V13 Albanians have African or as you say "bumpy" noses and lips and only you J2 Elite Race are so handsome to look upon.

Too hurt that you got a ME J2-M205* and turned that hatred towards E-V13 Albanians because of us being a dominant group?

Back to TA and stop bothering Aspurg too. He's a nice guy and he'll probably take his time to answer your nonsense so I hope he reads this first.

Aspurg didn't label all the E-V13 Arvanite but since they were found among Greeks who are very close to and share the same deep clades with Albanians, therefore they must be Arvanite clades in Greece. He didn't rename the clade.

Second, we know that Vlachs in Greece came mostly from Eastern Balkans so no point of wasting time again.

Third, you seem so keen to connect us "bumpy nosed and lips E-V13" with Afro-Asiatic languages. Is it because your haplogroup is originally Arab that you want all of us to be of Afro-Asiatic origin so that you don't feel lonely and alienated?

And change your flag to Kosovo you're not from Albania.

Dema
28-03-19, 22:13
What in hell are you talking about? Just PM me in Albanian.

I simply said that what he said about Vasojevic makes sense and that now we finally have evidence that Hoti, Krasniqi, Vasojevic, etc. were not brothers. Where's the disinformation?

Besides, you're the guy (Dema of The Apricity) that claims that E-V13 Albanians have African or as you say "bumpy" noses and lips and only you J2 Elite Race are so handsome to look upon.

Too hurt that you got a ME J2-M205* and turned that hatred towards E-V13 Albanians because of us being a dominant group?

Back to TA and stop bothering Aspurg too. He's a nice guy and he'll probably take his time to answer your nonsense so I hope he reads this first.

Aspurg didn't label all the E-V13 Arvanite but since they were found among Greeks who are very close to and share the same deep clades with Albanians, therefore they must be Arvanite clades in Greece. He didn't rename the clade.

Second, we know that Vlachs in Greece came mostly from Eastern Balkans so no point of wasting time again.

Third, you seem so keen to connect us "bumpy nosed and lips E-V13" with Afro-Asiatic languages. Is it because your haplogroup is originally Arab that you want all of us to be of Afro-Asiatic origin so that you don't feel lonely and alienated?

And change your flag to Kosovo you're not from Albania.

Disinformation is claiming that Malisor which would also include Albanian clans also have origin in Bosnia and Hercegovina. Only that. And i am opening topic about that as we speak.

Furthermore i cant believe the amount of nonsense you written in this post. To answer to you i would totally have to go off-topic into childish level where i dont want to be.

I was never hurt to be J2-M205, but rather investigating deeper and deeper i realized what i already knew. And that is that we come from very proud and honorable people.
Also as we knew nothing about this group before, now we do know a great deal. Phoenicians assimilated into Ancient Greeks and Illyrians.

No i wont get back to TA, i dont even read it, i left it with my own desire and i dont have time for such a time-wasting forum. Also i didnt agree with most of TA on majority of things.

Aspurg didnt label all the E-v13 Arvanite but for Illyrian origin he left room only for these two groups: Arvanite, and Vlach. Even tho i have respect for Aspurg work i just wanted to give him hint into my view of situation. Besides Aromun and Arvanite are modern ethnic groups, we are here talking about ancient origin, more focused into a Bronze Age. So i dont see logic putting Aromun and Arvanite alongside Hellenic, Illyrian, Dacian etc... Its just like mixing apples and pears.

Furthermore, im answering your questions as i read them, What about Vlachs in Greece? Read what i written about Bosch et al above, Vlachs are just Latinized Romanized Balkan natives, a bit isolated from rest tho, later also slavic influenced. They could be just as of Illyrian just as of Hellenic origin.

No one is seem to connect E-v13 with Afro-Asiatic you idiot. My very best friends in Kosovo and Albania are E-v13 but also my both best real life Croat friends (place where i live) turned out to be E-v13.
I have nothing but respect for this haplogroup and i never talked bad about it. What you are talking about is probably a short period when E-v13 was a bit trolled on TA and if you cant take that then you should question yourself again. Second to that i dont say that you have a bumpy nose but i have theory that Ydna is connected with physical look. But i was always claiming E-v13 is European haplogroup. What we are talking here is more ancient origin.

L618 went thru Middle East, most likely speaking sort of Afro-Asiatic language. Semitic also goes into that group. Same with haplogroup G2 bringing Neolitic agro-culture to European hunter gatherers.
When E-L618 made E-v13 we dont know what kind of language they adopted or continued and seems that entire part of E-v13 and L618 from ancient bones is lost in bottleneck, does not exist in modern people. I see only one survivior from Sardnia in Yfull who is L618+ and V13- https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/
Only ones who exist are 4800 years TMRCA BA clades that seem to expanded with Indo-Europeans. But E-v13 is formed 8100 ybp. So we are talking about this entire population of E-v13 from 4800 TMRCA to 8100 years TMRCA and entire L618 which was lost in bottleneck and for sure was not of IE origin. We know that it arrived to Europe thru Middle East most early possible is 12 000 years ago. But it could be later. Definitivley speaking Afro Asiatic or also known as Hamito Semitic language.

My haplogroup is not Arab but proto-Semitic and Mediterranean for 6000 years, Latin alphabet that we are using right now and ancient Greek alphabets both have origin in ancient Phoenician Semitic alphabet. And even if i was Arab i would not care the slightest, i wont remove Albanian flag, and if i remove it i will put Palestinian one instead, its my personal choice.

Kelmendasi
28-03-19, 22:58
L618 went thru Middle East, most likely speaking sort of Afro-Asiatic language. Semitic also goes into that group. Same with haplogroup G2 bringing Neolitic agro-culture to European hunter gatherers.
When E-L618 made E-v13 we dont know what kind of language they adopted or continued and seems that entire part of E-v13 and L618 from ancient bones is lost in bottleneck, does not exist in modern people. I see only one survivior from Sardnia in Yfull who is L618+ and V13- https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/
Only ones who exist are 4800 years TMRCA BA clades that seem to expanded with Indo-Europeans. But E-v13 is formed 8100 ybp. So we are talking about this entire population of E-v13 from 4800 TMRCA to 8100 years TMRCA and entire L618 which was lost in bottleneck and for sure was not of IE origin. We know that it arrived to Europe thru Middle East most early possible is 12 000 years ago. But it could be later. Definitivley speaking Afro Asiatic or also known as Hamito Semitic language.

I do believe that E-Z1919(father clade of L618) carriers likely spoke an early version of Afro-Asiatic somewhere in northern Africa, and maybe L618 also(some link it to the Capsians, possible speakers of early Afro-Asiatic). However, I don't think Neolithic farmers spoke an Afro-Asiatic language. Likely that the first Anatolian farmers spoke some language isolate native to west Asia considering that now genetics is suggesting that they were Anatolian hunter-gatherers that adopted farming. The Tyrsenian and Vasconic language families for example were likely to have stemmed from Neolithic farmers. The non-IE loanwords in Greek and other European languages also don't seem to show affinity with Afro-Asiatic. So most likely that G2 carriers didn't speak Afro-Asiatic and that E-L618 carriers adopted the language/s of these west Asian farmers.

Dema
28-03-19, 23:53
I do believe that E-Z1919(father clade of L618) carriers likely spoke an early version of Afro-Asiatic somewhere in northern Africa, and maybe L618 also(some link it to the Capsians, possible speakers of early Afro-Asiatic). However, I don't think Neolithic farmers spoke an Afro-Asiatic language. Likely that the first Anatolian farmers spoke some language isolate native to west Asia considering that now genetics is suggesting that they were Anatolian hunter-gatherers that adopted farming. The Tyrsenian and Vasconic language families for example were likely to have stemmed from Neolithic farmers. The non-IE loanwords in Greek and other European languages also don't seem to show affinity with Afro-Asiatic. So most likely that G2 carriers didn't speak Afro-Asiatic and that E-L618 carriers adopted the language/s of these west Asian farmers.


E-L618 split from E-v22, so almost entire brother clade of L618 is Semitic. This could point out that V22 remained in MENA, while L618 went directly to Europe. Where except 3 ancient bones, out of almost 100 it was not significant part of European population until BA IE expansion where as it seems they played a major role. They for sure entered Europe as sort of Semitic population. Later probably forming their own language not connected to other neighbor ones.

I found solid text on Wiki that goes good with this debate:

There is no direct evidence of the languages spoken in the Neolithic. Some proponents of paleolinguistics attempt to extend the methods of historical linguistics to the Stone Age, but this has little academic support. Criticizing scenarios which envision for the Neolithic only a small number of language families spread over huge areas of Europe (as in modern times), Donald Ringe has argued on general principles of language geography (as concerns "tribal", pre-state societies), and the scant remains of (apparently indigenous) non-Indo-European languages attested in ancient inscriptions, that Neolithic Europe must have been a place of great linguistic diversity, with many language families with no recoverable linguistic links to each other, much like western North America prior to European colonization.

Theories of "Pre-Indo-European" languages in Europe are built on scant evidence. The Basque language is the best candidate for a descendant of such a language, but since Basque is a language isolate, there is no comparative evidence to build upon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Europe#Language

So as it can be seen, this Neolithic part of European history is very shady. Most solid evidence is Basque language that survived IE assimilation, and Basque is isolated language not falling in any known group.

Therefore we can conclude that they spoken some kind of Neolithic isolated European language, but going back to their North Africa and Middle Eastern path (probably 10 000 years back), there is no doubt about their more ancient North African and Middle Eastern language. So called Hamito Semitic group of languages. So we cant conclude that they totally forgotten their old language and started right away to talk some entire new one.

Kelmendasi
29-03-19, 00:37
E-L618 split from E-v22, so almost entire brother clade of L618 is Semitic. This could point out that V22 remained in MENA, while L618 went directly to Europe. Where except 3 ancient bones, out of almost 100 it was not significant part of European population until BA IE expansion where as it seems they played a major role. They for sure entered Europe as sort of Semitic population. Later probably forming their own language not connected to other neighbor ones.

I found solid text on Wiki that goes good with this debate:

There is no direct evidence of the languages spoken in the Neolithic. Some proponents of paleolinguistics attempt to extend the methods of historical linguistics to the Stone Age, but this has little academic support. Criticizing scenarios which envision for the Neolithic only a small number of language families spread over huge areas of Europe (as in modern times), Donald Ringe has argued on general principles of language geography (as concerns "tribal", pre-state societies), and the scant remains of (apparently indigenous) non-Indo-European languages attested in ancient inscriptions, that Neolithic Europe must have been a place of great linguistic diversity, with many language families with no recoverable linguistic links to each other, much like western North America prior to European colonization.

Theories of "Pre-Indo-European" languages in Europe are built on scant evidence. The Basque language is the best candidate for a descendant of such a language, but since Basque is a language isolate, there is no comparative evidence to build upon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Europe#Language

So as it can be seen, this Neolithic part of European history is very shady. Most solid evidence is Basque language that survived IE assimilation, and Basque is isolated language not falling in any known group.

Therefore we can conclude that they spoken some kind of Neolithic isolated European language, but going back to their North Africa and Middle Eastern path (probably 10 000 years back), there is no doubt about their more ancient North African and Middle Eastern language. So called Hamito Semitic group of languages. So we cant conclude that they totally forgotten their old language and started right away to talk some entire new one.
E-L618 split from E-Z1919, E-V22 also split from Z1919. Originally V22 certainly wasn't Semitic considering how Proto-Semitic seems to have developed sometime during the late Chalcolithic or early Bronze Age somewhere in the southern Levant, whilst V22 developed during the Mesolithic in northern Africa. Though E-V22 certainly was part of the early Afro-Asiatic population. I think that when it comes to E1b, Proto-Semitic speakers likely carried E-M34 branches.

I do agree with the statement that Neolithic Europe was a diverse place in terms of linguistics, made up of various language families which may or may not have been related to each other. However, I do think that there is solid evidence suggesting that none of these main language families were Afro-Asiatic, based on some of the languages that we assume stem from Neolithic farmers(Aegean, Vasconic and Tyrsenian for example) as well as toponyms and loanwords. I believe that originally the E-L618 carriers spoke an early form of Afro-Asiatic that gradually got replaced by one of the EEF languages as they settled in Europe. L618 for one seems to be connected to the Cardial culture when it comes to Europe, a EEF culture that I very much doubt spoke a variant of Afro-Asiatic. Though as you said, this part of European history is kinda hazy when it comes to linguistics.

If we assume that E-V13 originated in the Neolithic Balkans, which is the most likely theory, then the original carriers themselves weren't Afro-Asiatic speakers but rather speakers of some EEF language isolate. This would still apply even if it originated in Neolithic Anatolia. And later on the main branch, CTS5856, would get absorbed by PIE speakers somewhere in central Europe during the Bronze Age and expand with them across most of Europe and potentially Asia. Though as was established before, if you go far back enough to the origin of L618, they were originally likely Afro-Asiatic speakers.

Dema
29-03-19, 16:17
Yes i agree Kelmendasi on most that you said. When L618 entered Europe it was too early for Semitic languages i ment to say Afro-Asiatic.
But when i said V22 is almost entirely Semitic i ment in modern distribution, i know their TMRCA goes before Semitic languages.

Also E-Z1919 is father of L618 and V22. Even tho not much older father, ony 1300 years older according to Yfull.
L618 and V22 are absolutely two parallel brother clades, both formed 12 000 years ago.

Aspurg
29-03-19, 21:13
Aspurg,you have done good job on isolating clades found among Greeks. Iabsolutely believe that even tho i didnt double check them.

I had this info stacked for many months so I just came forward with it. You are free to check them.



Mycritics go mostly first to methodology used in order to try to findtime of arrival, in this case going strictly by TMRCA (you concludedLBA-EIA, i say its more likely EBA I II III, just as all other IE,

I placed most of Greek into LBA-EIA becuse that’s where they fitgoing by their age and diversity. And I explained for some of themwhy, for examples those under Y3183.




Also i dont understand why you only included Arvanite and Vlachpossibility.

Because it is very important to isolate haplotypes that have nothing to do with Anceint Greece. It’s a common knowledge that both Arvanites and Vlachs are numerous in Greece, in cases where modern Greek E-V13’s closely cluster with Albanians obviously they are extremely likely to have Arvanite ancestry, ditto in the case of Vlachs and Aromanians. The criteria is simple:belonging to same clade as Albanians, Aromanians, Bulgarians, having a a similar haplotype (that is sharing a late Medieval period ancestor), and also having additional hints, such as regional spread or surnames. For example the Greek E-CTS6377*who closely clusters with a Bulgarian (4/37) has surname “Vlahopoulos”,so how his surname not be an indication of his ancestry combined with his Y-DNA?



Arvanitecan only confuse you because its only one group of Albanians whileyou cant label all Albanians in Greece as Arvanites. They can beCameria Albanians, Northern or Western ones.

You have a point here, I primarily meant by Arvanite “of Albanian origin”, that might include non-Arvanite origin but likely majority of such cases are Arvanite.



Alsowe can conclude that Illyrians but Albanians also migrated to Greeksince ancient times,


...Sogroups that would make more sense are: Greek, Thracian, Italic,Dacian and Albano-Illyrian. Furthermore any of them could have becomea Vlach but i would label Vlach only these that are at maximum of1000 years far from Aromuns. But more further away both Romanian andAromanian sample could be Dacian, Thracian or Illyrian, even Hellenicin origin.

By labeling something “ancient Greek” I said nothing of their distant whereabouts in most cases, they could be Dorian, Ionian, Aetolian etc. Also some might be Illyrian and Thracian. But I believe these were present there in Antiquity.



Secondare Vlachs so, i dont see any sense in labeling some group as Vlachonly except if its not actual Aromun group with TMRCA no larger then1000 years (when Aromanian and Romanian split one from another).

Well Aromanians and Romanians are generally distinct genetically but it seems several Vlach groups existed around Balkans, I refer to all of them. Some of these actually do cluster with Aromanians proper (found in 2006 study), like E-Z19851, E-Y16729*and probably this E-Y3183* clade as well.



Cetinalabel was also very speculative.

It is not, there are multiple very good reasons why Cetina should be associated with V13. Rafc wrote a text about it, but additionally I know some important facts. The only other alternative for the origin of V13 is Trypillia element (as one E-M78 was found there but was of bad quality), and that argument has also some basis.
In the case of this Greek he has no matches anywhere, and a likely invasion of Peloponnese by Cetina people in 22nd century BC might be a good hint.

Nik
29-03-19, 21:37
You have a point here, I primarily meant by Arvanite “of Albanian origin”, that might include non-Arvanite origin but likely majority of such cases are Arvanite.

He doesn't have a point and you were right to call it Arvanite. Arvanite simply means an Albanian speaker of Greece and as long as those samples you provided are not from Epirus or some villages in Thrace then they are indeed Arvanite no matter which region of Albania, Montenegro, Kosovo, Macedonia, or even Greece they came from.

I guess you didn't take me seriously when I said don't waste your time with him. He barely understands what's written anyway and if you noticed on his previous post where he states that he would even put the flag of Palestine then we understand very well that he's like some of those people you share your country with. His J2-M205 results have definitely made his views even worse.

Aspurg
29-03-19, 21:45
Disinformationis claiming that Malisor which would also include Albanian clans also have origin in Bosnia and Hercegovina. Only that. And i am opening topic about that as we speak.

Disinformation? There are Vasojevici writing about their tribe at poreklo, and as far as I know there are no Vasojevici among Albanians, and they are unlikely to be found either. Some info about this tribe came out and I mostly agreed with the notion they came from Herzegovina because now there is some proof for it.



Noone is seem to connect E-v13 with Afro-Asiatic you idiot. My verybest friends in Kosovo and Albania are E-v13 but also my both best real life Croat friends (place where i live) turned out to be E-v13.

You are free to connect it all you like. E-V13/E-L618 is proto-Afro-Asiatic, in fact one of the things that I’m after is to prove that E-V13’s kept plenty of elements of their original culture within the Neolithic Europe. I love Ancient Egypt and I could recite to you portions of Book of the Dead in Egyptian. I wouldn’t mind being V12 or V22 at all.

Regarding your comments well, the most successful hg’s seem to be R1 and E1b1b as their languages came to dominate the Eurasia, so I’m content that paternally and maternally (I'm almost certainly R-U152) I descend of those.:smile: And E-V13 got alot more numerous than it was in Neolithic times, so sporting other languages it still was successful.



Yesi agree Kelmendasi on most that you said. When L618 entered Europe itwas too early for Semitic languages i ment to say Afro-Asiatic.


Butwhen i said V22 is almost entirely Semitic i ment in moderndistribution, i know their TMRCA goes before Semitic languages.

Also E-Z1919 is father of L618 and V22. Even tho not much older father,ony 1300 years older according to Yfull.
L618and V22 are absolutely two parallel brother clades, both formed 12000 years ago.

E-V13 has nothing to do with Semites because its separation predates the Semitic ethnogenesis. Besides J1-Z2324 and J2-M205 have been found together in Ain Ghazal EBA, Sidon MBA and also in pre-Prolemaic Egypt in Abusir el-Meleq a Hyksos settlement. So J2-M205 has been found 3 times together with J1-Z2324in Semitic context indicating their crucial role in Semitic ethnogenesis. Ofc they picked up the language likely from some M34 clade.

E-V22 has surely Egyptian clades as it has been found in Ancient Egypt as well.

Aspurg
29-03-19, 22:16
Whatreally interests me is how do you interpret your own line Aspurg?like you pointed origin in these Greek lines, and giving thepossibilities you offered you would have to be Arvanite or Vlach, buti think truth is something else. So i would like to hear yourexplanation about your line giving that you are also E-V13 from theBalkans? Do you match Lakic, you are Bosnian Serb right?

I am always eager to explain. I am not Bosnian Serb, my paternal line is from Bijelo Polje,Montenegro. 1/4 Bosnian Serb from central Bosnia and 1/2 Bosniak from central Bosnia from my mothers side. I am YF18711, so you can see I have nothing to do with Lakic or anyone for that matter of these samples. My cousins are very rare among Serbs,they do not exist among Albanians thus far. But I have a very specific haplotype, even at 17 STR’s it can be easily recognized.There is my own Western Balkan group, my clan, another family fromRudnik area in Serbia, and some Bosniak from Tuzla (anonymous) that separated from the Shop (Serbian/Bulgarian border) group in late Medieval times. In the Shop area I have a family from near Leskovac, Sofiya Bulgaria, and anonymous haplotypes from almost certainly Vranje, Pirot and likely North East Macedonia. All of Balkan haplotypes share non-modal dys385b=17, and Western ones share also non-modal dys385a=17, as opposed to the one modal for more distant cousins as well as for other Z17107 and V13: 16-18.
Now,near Bijelo Polje there is:
-monastery of Kumanica
- small village Kunovača
-village Gostun where my ancestors might have lived (because our village was empty then but we had some other connection to it) with person named Dorman in 1485.
-Rudnik area cousin (with a tradition of Pester origin) has a surname with Bulgarian/Shop area root (very weird considering the area) and stem based on it likely from Krnja Jela at Pester where also in 1571 there is bastina/land named Kuman
-In 1571 there is a village in my area as well as one person named Yarmen which is an Ermi variant and Gostun was a regent who descended of Ermi clan, this document was lost in 9th century (rediscovered in 19th) so if anybody had some knowledge of this 500 years ago it could not have been accidental! It's not like some priest story about Nemanjici origin which was made up, which good Serb in his right might would want to descend of Oghur Bolgars? :smile: I guess those that do. Also in Rudnik in early 15th century Kumanichic family was active and for them origin from Bijelo Polje area was hypothesised. Well actually I have relatives in both areas, a distant branch of my clan in Rudnik and this other family, as well as village Yarmenovtsi in Rudnik too!

In Shop area my cousin is from Pecenevce village near Leskovac, is per literature of “unknown origin”, and village was named after the Pechenegs.He clusters closely with Bulgarian from Sofiya, not me.

In Karcag, Greater Cumania, Hungary kit E5882 is certainly a member of my clade, but also distant, likely late antiquity.Also a similar haplotype is found in Cluj, Romania, certainly also over 1500 years distant, they might be themselves distant those two are 4/17 or 4/19. Karcag was founded in 1506 by Cumans, and I’ve seen a member of this family claiming such descend. In fact he made lots of Cuman monuments there, so I'm sure they want to prove the same. Also I hope to get more cousins from that area soon. Although their current surname is not Cuman there is some documentary evidence to suggest they used to have a certain Cuman surname.

Basal Z17107 clades are found nearby, other Hungarian E-Y81971 who also according to some have a Cuman surname. Ukrainian Z17107 from Lavov (alongside one in a Lvov study who is 4/17 with him), and also Russian Z17107>BY4467 who hasn’t uploaded to Yfull yet.

Now me and Hungarian are not close but we share for V13 unmodal dys439=13 which means this value is old for our clade.

RussianZ17107>BY4467 and another Russian who seems certainly related to him though being 21/111 also both have dys439=13

Americans who are both Z17107+, Z38456- and are certainly members of the same clade because of DYS511=9 also both have dys439=13 and they are 15/67 so distant. So 3 Z17107* clades and all have an old value of dys439=13.

So it seems there is going to be an SNP at least based upon dys439=13 that these Z17107* share. If this is confirmed it will mean certain ancestry of Gelonians (Cimmerians with links to Basarabi/Babadag), Massagetae, Bolgars and Cumans for my own clade. I failed to get this SNP when I manually tested 11 of Russian SNP's but still I have over 30 SNP's of highest quality and more of acceptable q., and he did BigY 5-6 years ago with far less coverage and 11 SNP's is too small for his clade. All I need is just one, and I'm very confident of getting it, maybe few more as well.

Haplotypes that could belong to one or both of these last 2 clades are found in Georgia and Dagestan so that’s what I’m currently working on.

Alsoa likely Z17107 is found among Tatars, kit 285844 (dys447=25,dys458=16 modal for CTS9320 , dys464cd=17-18 and GATAH4=12 both modal for Z17107>Y30991, also CDY 32-37 space of 5 at CDY is common for Z17107, also he has DYS444=13 modal for Z38456.
He shares with the Swedish Z38456>BY4435 DYS413a=22
Alternatively he shares the same with the Ukrainian Z17107* as well as dys481=23 so he might be Z38456-.When we remember that Hungarian E-Y81971 also has dys481=23 (especially if a distant Turkish haplotype with tradition of Caucasus origin comes out Y81971) it might mean that dys481=23 was at basal Z17107 level.

So he actually might be Z38456+ but he would be a basal Z38456. If confirmed he would indicate at least also basal Z38456 is a Steppe SNP, and of course anything above is automatically.

Balkan Z17107 is diverse but it has a TMRCA of 1800 ybp. I guess it probably migrated to Balkans in EIA but it most definitely does not descend from the Balkans itself, because of older clades in the Carpathian region etc.

In any case because my Balkan relatives are founder effect (all of our Balkan cousins are closer to each other than any of them is to those North of Danube) and because they are found with Nomadic traces they very likely at least stem from the North of Danube (G.Cumania- N.Transylvania). It’s either Cimmerian or Dacian ancestry for my clade. Some Free Dacians could have been assimilated by the Nomads as well, Iazyges, Avars, Bulgars have been there.

I myself have autosomally lots of Steppe ancestry, more than is usual for my location. In MDLP k23 Oracle my first match is Serb/Croat + Yagnobi or Hungarian + Crimean Tatar, it seems to me I got that from BP area. I got some very strong basal R, of all Bosniaks, Serbs I’ve seen I’m the closest to the likes of Mal’ta, Afontova Gora, Samara, Karelia. In fact I beat there my distant cousin from N.Hungary!

So I interpret it that my ancestors came to Bijelo Polje in 1253 when Bulgarian-Cuman Army ransacked Bijelo Polje (because they were allies of Dubrovnik who was at conflict with Serbia over some trade rights along with one claimant from Herzegovina), and that my clan is Olas or Ulashevich (settled in Karcag area) and also Bolgar Ermi clan (my haplotypes match the spread of Yarmen traces on the Balkan and also Bashkir Yurmati R1a-Z93 S10438 is found in Macedonia and Bulgaria so I'm not making up that this tribal group was present). Make no mistake about it I take all this very seriously and that is why I wish to prove all rationally because only in such case I can work fanatically on reviving the old ways.:)

Dema
30-03-19, 04:50
He doesn't have a point and you were right to call it Arvanite. Arvanite simply means an Albanian speaker of Greece and as long as those samples you provided are not from Epirus or some villages in Thrace then they are indeed Arvanite no matter which region of Albania, Montenegro, Kosovo, Macedonia, or even Greece they came from.

I guess you didn't take me seriously when I said don't waste your time with him. He barely understands what's written anyway and if you noticed on his previous post where he states that he would even put the flag of Palestine then we understand very well that he's like some of those people you share your country with. His J2-M205 results have definitely made his views even worse.


Ignorant, look, Arvanite means Albanian speaker but Arvanites are also somewhat isolated and established ethnic group in Greece. I dont say that they are much different from Albanians or that they dont share close common ancestor but calling all Albanians that happen to be in Greece Arvanites, including Ancient Greeks with Illyrian origin is really ridiculous.

How in the hell on earth would Kosovo Albanian for example become Arvanite only because he happens to be in Greece, are you real or what?

Furthermore, for example, i recently meet one Albanian from Athens and i engaged conversation about origin and he specifically told me that he is Tosk. He emigrated to Greece and he is from South Albania and he considered and declared himself as Tosk, why would he say Tosk and not Arvanite?, now saying for every Albanian that steps foot into Greece, incl Illyrian lines that were before Arvanites even existed that they are Arvanites is ridiculous. Cham and Lab are not Arvanites and they dont share same history with them, as Arvanites arrived from inner Albania in recent specific period in history while Cham and Lab Albanians are native to their lands.

look at this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d1/Albanian_dialects.svg/1920px-Albanian_dialects.svg.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Arvanitic.svg/800px-Arvanitic.svg.png

Leka
30-03-19, 17:48
Aspurg, wouldn’t hurt also to mention that traditionally you guys identified as Kuç ;)

Aspurg
30-03-19, 18:10
Aspurg, wouldn’t hurt also to mentions that traditionally you guys identified as Kuç ;)

Hehe yes, in some traditions but our clan was recorded to have been in Bijelo Polje area before 1645. And before subsequent migrations post Battle of Wiena brought Kuci, Vasojevici, Drobnjaci and many others into the Lim area. Our ancestor was ktitor of Nikoljac in early 17th century that never made any sense with Kuci tradition so I vehemently denied that we descend of Kuci even before the Genetics. Some traditions existed in branches from Pester and Rudnik and those never mentioned Kuci. Yet the Kuci settled the Lim area and as DNA results show they heavily settled Komaran and Pester area where my clan was strong so in these local branches this kinship with Kuci and tradition developed. But obviously my clade has very different roads in comparison to Kuci, we peak in Shop region and have distant relatives way more to the North none of which is true for Kuci. And ofc our village Rakon was mentioned in 1485 in Pulaha's defter (as Komaran belonged to Shkodra sandzak) and it was said the land belonged to the monastery of Nikoljac which ofc cannot be an accident and indicates deeper ties with it into 15th century. Also there is evidence connecting my clan to some Voynuk communities around Komaran and Pester in 16th century, completely in line with the status of ktitor (provider of funds), only an Ottoman accomplice in heart of their territory could have such a status.

So in short we are the old population of Komaran/Pester. But with a more distant ancestry from Shop. TBH I expected some other hg than V13 because I knew I'm not a real Kuc, soon I saw we differed in haplotype significantly. Also historian Lutovac called my clan "starinci" or the old population, obviously he didn't believe the Kuci story either. Also the only more elaborate tradition claimed descend of a clan from Drekalovici who exist only 100+ years after my clan is attested.

There are plenty of other "Kuc" descended people in the BP area. For example there is a Konatar family who had a tradition of Kuci descend, even written down by Lutovac.
Look at this video about Kuci made by one Konatar talking to a historian who descends from Kuci Mrnjavcici, he asked him about his family having tradition of descending from Mrnjavcici
https://vimeo.com/10098684

But Konatar is PH908. LOL

Dema
30-03-19, 20:26
I am always eager to explain. I am not Bosnian Serb, my paternal line is from Bijelo Polje,Montenegro. 1/4 Bosnian Serb from central Bosnia and 1/2 Bosniak from central Bosnia from my mothers side. I am YF18711, so you can see I have nothing to do with Lakic or anyone for that matter of these samples. My cousins are very rare among Serbs,they do not exist among Albanians thus far. But I have a very specific haplotype, even at 17 STR’s it can be easily recognized.There is my own Western Balkan group, my clan, another family fromRudnik area in Serbia, and some Bosniak from Tuzla (anonymous) that separated from the Shop (Serbian/Bulgarian border) group in late Medieval times. In the Shop area I have a family from near Leskovac, Sofiya Bulgaria, and anonymous haplotypes from almost certainly Vranje, Pirot and likely North East Macedonia. All of Balkan haplotypes share non-modal dys385b=17, and Western ones share also non-modal dys385a=17, as opposed to the one modal for more distant cousins as well as for other Z17107 and V13: 16-18.
Now,near Bijelo Polje there is:
-monastery of Kumanica
- small village Kunovača
-village Gostun where my ancestors might have lived (because our village was empty then but we had some other connection to it) with person named Dorman in 1485.
-Rudnik area cousin (with a tradition of Pester origin) has a surname with Bulgarian/Shop area root (very weird considering the area) and stem based on it likely from Krnja Jela at Pester where also in 1571 there is bastina/land named Kuman
-In 1571 there is a village in my area as well as one person named Yarmen which is an Ermi variant and Gostun was a regent who descended of Ermi clan, this document was lost in 9th century (rediscovered in 19th) so if anybody had some knowledge of this 500 years ago it could not have been accidental! It's not like some priest story about Nemanjici origin which was made up, which good Serb in his right might would want to descend of Oghur Bolgars? :smile: I guess those that do. Also in Rudnik in early 15th century Kumanichic family was active and for them origin from Bijelo Polje area was hypothesised. Well actually I have relatives in both areas, a distant branch of my clan in Rudnik and this other family, as well as village Yarmenovtsi in Rudnik too!

In Shop area my cousin is from Pecenevce village near Leskovac, is per literature of “unknown origin”, and village was named after the Pechenegs.He clusters closely with Bulgarian from Sofiya, not me.

In Karcag, Greater Cumania, Hungary kit E5882 is certainly a member of my clade, but also distant, likely late antiquity.Also a similar haplotype is found in Cluj, Romania, certainly also over 1500 years distant, they might be themselves distant those two are 4/17 or 4/19. Karcag was founded in 1506 by Cumans, and I’ve seen a member of this family claiming such descend. In fact he made lots of Cuman monuments there, so I'm sure they want to prove the same. Also I hope to get more cousins from that area soon. Although their current surname is not Cuman there is some documentary evidence to suggest they used to have a certain Cuman surname.

Basal Z17107 clades are found nearby, other Hungarian E-Y81971 who also according to some have a Cuman surname. Ukrainian Z17107 from Lavov (alongside one in a Lvov study who is 4/17 with him), and also Russian Z17107>BY4467 who hasn’t uploaded to Yfull yet.

Now me and Hungarian are not close but we share for V13 unmodal dys439=13 which means this value is old for our clade.

RussianZ17107>BY4467 and another Russian who seems certainly related to him though being 21/111 also both have dys439=13

Americans who are both Z17107+, Z38456- and are certainly members of the same clade because of DYS511=9 also both have dys439=13 and they are 15/67 so distant. So 3 Z17107* clades and all have an old value of dys439=13.

So it seems there is going to be an SNP at least based upon dys439=13 that these Z17107* share. If this is confirmed it will mean certain ancestry of Gelonians (Cimmerians with links to Basarabi/Babadag), Massagetae, Bolgars and Cumans for my own clade. I failed to get this SNP when I manually tested 11 of Russian SNP's but still I have over 30 SNP's of highest quality and more of acceptable q., and he did BigY 5-6 years ago with far less coverage and 11 SNP's is too small for his clade. All I need is just one, and I'm very confident of getting it, maybe few more as well.

Haplotypes that could belong to one or both of these last 2 clades are found in Georgia and Dagestan so that’s what I’m currently working on.

Alsoa likely Z17107 is found among Tatars, kit 285844 (dys447=25,dys458=16 modal for CTS9320 , dys464cd=17-18 and GATAH4=12 both modal for Z17107>Y30991, also CDY 32-37 space of 5 at CDY is common for Z17107, also he has DYS444=13 modal for Z38456.
He shares with the Swedish Z38456>BY4435 DYS413a=22
Alternatively he shares the same with the Ukrainian Z17107* as well as dys481=23 so he might be Z38456-.When we remember that Hungarian E-Y81971 also has dys481=23 (especially if a distant Turkish haplotype with tradition of Caucasus origin comes out Y81971) it might mean that dys481=23 was at basal Z17107 level.

So he actually might be Z38456+ but he would be a basal Z38456. If confirmed he would indicate at least also basal Z38456 is a Steppe SNP, and of course anything above is automatically.

Balkan Z17107 is diverse but it has a TMRCA of 1800 ybp. I guess it probably migrated to Balkans in EIA but it most definitely does not descend from the Balkans itself, because of older clades in the Carpathian region etc.

In any case because my Balkan relatives are founder effect (all of our Balkan cousins are closer to each other than any of them is to those North of Danube) and because they are found with Nomadic traces they very likely at least stem from the North of Danube (G.Cumania- N.Transylvania). It’s either Cimmerian or Dacian ancestry for my clade. Some Free Dacians could have been assimilated by the Nomads as well, Iazyges, Avars, Bulgars have been there.

I myself have autosomally lots of Steppe ancestry, more than is usual for my location. In MDLP k23 Oracle my first match is Serb/Croat + Yagnobi or Hungarian + Crimean Tatar, it seems to me I got that from BP area. I got some very strong basal R, of all Bosniaks, Serbs I’ve seen I’m the closest to the likes of Mal’ta, Afontova Gora, Samara, Karelia. In fact I beat there my distant cousin from N.Hungary!

So I interpret it that my ancestors came to Bijelo Polje in 1253 when Bulgarian-Cuman Army ransacked Bijelo Polje (because they were allies of Dubrovnik who was at conflict with Serbia over some trade rights along with one claimant from Herzegovina), and that my clan is Olas or Ulashevich (settled in Karcag area) and also Bolgar Ermi clan (my haplotypes match the spread of Yarmen traces on the Balkan and also Bashkir Yurmati R1a-Z93 S10438 is found in Macedonia and Bulgaria so I'm not making up that this tribal group was present). Make no mistake about it I take all this very seriously and that is why I wish to prove all rationally because only in such case I can work fanatically on reviving the old ways.:)





You strait away claimed that you have no relatives among Serbs and Albanians and went to Carpathian Bulgar-Cuman army and lots of nonsense like Tatars, Swedes and Russians. While the truth is something else.
I am sorry to say but i strait away knew that you are Bosnian Serb. Reason why i knew it, it was because you put your haplogroup Z17107 into Eupedia profile and as a flag you put Bosnia.
I was like more then 90 % sure that you are more likely Bosnian Serb then Croat or Bosnjak. Because specifically this haplogroup was recently discussed on our inner Albanian forum and i remembered the clade by accident since i have looked into it because it is one of clades for me with great interest of exploration.

You have very specific clade, for me very easy to recognize and exactly know your origin. You are what Bosnjaks and Croats call Krajina Vlach, in this case Bosnian Krajina.
But going by history and also now confirmed by genetics, specifically your line, as i cant claim that for all Krajina Serbs, is of Montenegrin Albanian Illyrian origin.

I simply asked you about your paternal line, since we discuss Y-DNA here. How would you classify your origin just as you classified Greek ones. So in one word?
It does not matter anymore, i see that you are tracing any possibility but the actual and truthful one, and in the end as your genetic results tell you. That you are serbicized Montenegrin Albanian.

My haplogroup J2-M205>Y22059 has great connections with haplogroup E-v13 and great part of my subclade was assimilated in the same process of assimilation of most of that Serbian and Montenegrin E-v13, but also J2b2, R1b, and other smaller groups. Hence why i am curious about all these haplogroups and i have actually explored them very deeply with proofs in my hands.

Your subclade E-v13>Z17107>Y30991* dominates at Albanians, were we have great deal of them. So even you are of probably Illyrian origin, you were most likely Montenegrin Albanian and because of Slavicization of your native territories and your Orthodox religion you declare as Serb. Later you emigrated to Krajina. ITs simple as that.

Look at your clade where your sample YF18711 is also visible among other Croatian Serb samples and plenty of Albanians, it is a clear Balkan origin found among Albanians and Serbicized Albanians from Montenegro and surrounding areas.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y30991/

Your TMRCA goes undoubtedly into Illyrian period of timeframe 900 BC, and you share this sublcade with great variety of Albanians and few Croatian and Bosnian Serbs also known as Vlachs, in this specific case Montenegrin Albanians.

You were recorded as Albanian Kuçi, you come from Montenegro where originally Albanian language was spoken, you share TMRCA 2900 years with plenty of various Albanians and only few serbicized Croatian and Bosnian Vlachs with Albanian origin and you have haplogroup that dominates at Albanians in various subclades with high percentage.







Disinformation? There are Vasojevici writing about their tribe at poreklo, and as far as I know there are no Vasojevici among Albanians, and they are unlikely to be found either. Some info about this tribe came out and I mostly agreed with the notion they came from Herzegovina because now there is some proof for it.
.


I have long time ago analysed Vasojevici subclade or at least take a better look at it.

They share same origin and history with you, so being Montenegrin slavicized Albanians with Orthodox religion they declare as Serbs.
Comparing modern Y-dna picture with ancient bones shows us bottlenecks do their own. We cant look at modern Albanians and speculate that clades that we cant find among them today were not actually Albanian once. Especially if we find these clades at neighboring people that are known thru history for assimilating Albanians where these haplogroups are alien among them and very tipical among Albanians.

Analyzing Slovenian Y-DNA and comparing it to Serbian one. Knowing that they share same language and same subclades of primary R1a and I2a haplogroups, we can see that E-v13 was very low initially at new coming Slavs. They probably had around 1-3 % of E-v13 as it is even today normal percentages for East and West slavic countries. And we even happen to find Ukrainian and Russian clades among E-v13s. But as suspected its in very low percentages while majority is actually assimilated paleo-balkan remains or more recenty Albanians like in your and Vasojevici case.

Vasojevici with Slovens, Croats and Bosnjaks still have tribal Balkan TMRCA, typical for many haplogroups.

Vasojevici, Zdjelar, Djukic, these are all PH1204 and they share TMRCA 1000 years so without doubt Albanians with Montenegrin origin.


The only reason why there is partially higher percentage of E-v13 in Bosnia and Croatia is primarly because of Serbs where with some of specific haplogroups like this one we can claim that it was Albanian but because of slavicization and Orthodox religion declares as Serb.

Aspurg
30-03-19, 22:34
You strait away claimed that you have no relatives among Serbs and Albanians and went to Carpathian Bulgar-Cuman army and lots of nonsense like Tatars, Swedes and Russians. While the truth is something else.


I have explained it all in detail. And this is the truth. I have few relatives, they occur only in places of Nomad Turkic presence on the Balkans and elsewhere. In fact where they are precisely localized they exactly correspond with it.






I am sorry to say but i strait away knew that you are Bosnian Serb. Reason why i knew it, it was because you put your haplogroup Z17107 into Eupedia profile and as a flag you put Bosnia.


I'm most definitely not a Bosnian Serb and I'm not so fond of them either, after all I lost some close relatives to them. Bosnians Serbs (and also most Croats) usually dislike Bosnia, they generally would not put the Bosnian flag. I don't. In fact my maternal ancestors descend of Medieval Bosnian nobility turf.:) That is very rare but it is the order of things.





You have very specific clade, for me very easy to recognize and exactly know your origin. You are what Bosnjaks and Croats call Krajina Vlach, in this case Bosnian Krajina.
But going by history and also now confirmed by genetics, specifically your line, as i cant claim that for all Krajina Serbs, is of Montenegrin Albanian Illyrian origin.


Hmm, you repeat several times that I'm of Krajina. My family has zero connections to Krajina, and no genetic relatives in Krajina, Bosnian or Herzegovina Serbs. Doesn't have them and likely never will.
You seem to have comprehension problems, as is seen by your poor English, these days most of population tends to have better skills.
Also I myself have zero ancestry from Krajina from any side.




I simply asked you about your paternal line, since we discuss Y-DNA here. How would you classify your origin just as you classified Greek ones. So in one word?
It does not matter anymore, i see that you are tracing any possibility but the actual and truthful one, and in the end as your genetic results tell you. That you are serbicized Montenegrin Albanian.


If I had been of Albanian origin I would be proud of it like those who have it should not shun it away. You should be proud of your non-Albanian origin as well.:smile:


But I don't have Albanian origins. My specific clade is certainly native to Carpathians, because I have also members of my own clade who do share certainly a number of SNP's (that other BY4461 don't) with me in Carpathian area, and as in close proximity other basal Z17107 are found it is very clear that Z17107 is far more diverse in that region than it is in the Balkans. Albanian BY4461 will never attain diversity in the age that far back.




My haplogroup J2-M205>Y22059 has great connections with haplogroup E-v13 and great part of


Some Krici migrated to Krajina area en masse alongside some other hg's, such as N-P189.2, I1-P109 Drobnjaci, also Mirilovici I-Z17855, and many others. Also some E-V13 clades in Krajina Serbs like their L241 are likely native not migrants from the East. But what would you know about E-V13 clades..




my subclade was assimilated in the same process of assimilation of most of that Serbian and Montenegrin E-v13, but also J2b2, R1b, and other smaller groups. Hence why i am curious about all these haplogroups and i have actually explored them very deeply with proofs in my hands.

Krici were already Slavic speaking in 14th/15th century judging by their personal names.




Your subclade E-v13>Z17107>Y30991* dominates at Albanians, were we have great deal of them. So even you are of probably Illyrian origin,

Good Kric, I'm glad I have many distant relatives in Albania, something you don't and you never will. (those South Albanian M205 have nothing to do with you, they had different migratory paths).




you were most likely Montenegrin Albanian and because of Slavicization of your native territories and your Orthodox religion you declare as Serb. Later you emigrated to Krajina. ITs simple as that.

You're are such a bore. Have I not mentioned that my clan is very old in Bijelo Polje. It has nothing to do with Krajina Serbs, nothing to do with Bosnia in general, Bijelo Polje 100 %. And no evidence whatsoever of anything along Krajina lines. I never migrated to Krajina dummy. My grandfather was born in Bijelo Polje, so was his father, his father and so on.




Look at your clade where your sample YF18711 is also visible among other Croatian Serb samples and plenty of Albanians, it is a clear Balkan origin found among Albanians and Serbicized Albanians from Montenegro and surrounding areas.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y30991/


And? I'm still 2900 years distant from them. They are a bottleneck that began expanding 1800 years ago. Nothing else. All older Z17107 clades are found northwards in Dacia.




Your TMRCA goes undoubtedly into Illyrian period of timeframe 900 BC, and you share this sublcade with great variety of Albanians and few Croatian and Bosnian Serbs also known as Vlachs, in this specific case Montenegrin Albanians.

I share only Y30991 with them and I don't share a huge number of SNP's after. Also Y30991 is going to be shared I'm afraid for you by various others, including surely Eastern ones as well.




You were recorded as Albanian Kuçi, you come from Montenegro where originally Albanian language was spoken,

I am not genetically Kuci, and I descend of Shop area, nothing to do with Kuci and nothing to do with anybody else from the Western Balkan area. My cousins in Shop have no tradition whatsoever about any Kuci, nor do Hungarians LMAO. The tradition about Kuci was made up in recent times, but why would I identify with Kuci LOL, I am not one of them and we have our past that is very interesting. Still i respect greatly the Kuchi.




you share TMRCA 2900 years with plenty of various Albanians

And my closest relatives members of my clade (not there yet at YFull but they'll show up now that I know who they are) are not Albanians, but other Serb from Pecheneg village, Bulgarian from Sofiya, Macedonian, Romanian from N.Transylvania and Hungarians from Cumania. No Albanian members of my own clade.




and only few serbicized Croatian and Bosnian Vlachs with Albanian origin and you have haplogroup that dominates at Albanians in various subclades with high percentage.


It does not matter that numerically Albanians have most members of this clade, what matters is that this clade is far more diverse in Carpathians. All of those Albanians are just 1 person 1800 years ago. And where are found other clades? All are found way North of Danube.


You are also too repetitive with your "Illyrian" thing.
CTS9320 as whole shows Carpathian-Balkan connection. There are clades that are simply native North of Danube and vast majority of those is Dacian, certainly not Illyrian. Also some Balkan clades are certainly Moesian-Triballian and others are Illyrian, and importantly CTS6377* is found in Bulgaria (And a Vlach from Greece), not Albania (and very likely won't ever be found based on STR's), indicating it's proto-Triballian, proto-Dacian origin. Some of those more western clades might have become part of Illyrian movements, but some of them are Illyrianized Triballians. Z5017 also has highest diversity in Bulgaria, as does Z5018. E-V13 is Thracian far more than it is Illyrian, make no mistake about that. Some Albanian E-V13's are not of Illyrian but Thracian origin.

I am not Illyrian. (But I am maternally ultra Illyrian, more so than great many other Illyrian clades). As explained above my clade certainly descends from the Shop area, it is not native in Montenegro or in Bosnia 100 %. And it is very likely native in the area North of Balkans, as is the entire Z17107 ultimately. The ancestor of Z17107 lived outside of the Balkans, and there is nothing to discuss further on that topic.

Hmm, I thought maybe my ancestors brought Krici tribe from Bulglaria to Montenegro, because there is a village Bolyare nearby, so we might have had a title of Bolyar, in Bulgaria there is Krichim so I thought maybe we brought some Byzantine soldiers of Middle Eastern origin to MNE in 1253 but that is unlikely.


So, my suggestion is to read some of the stuff you are fond, and avoid things you haven't got any clue about, which is talking about E-V13 or any of its clades.
I don't get it why are you upset that Albanian Z17107 invaded Balkans in Antiquity? Ah is it because you seem to dislike E-V13 so they cannot be "invaders" but only some "conquered people"? Well I'm here to bring frustration to those who dislike E-V13, so sorry to dispel your dreams. Because that is what some Serbs at poreklo are thinking too!

Aspurg
30-03-19, 23:51
Vasojevici, Zdjelar, Djukic, these are all PH1204 and they share TMRCA 1000 years so without doubt Albanians with Montenegrin origin.

Yes Zdjelar is that dys458=13 haplotype I was mentioning. Good so after so much time you managed to grasp that. Something any elementary school child would have picked it up by now. Congratulations!! And now Zdjelar and Bobani Vlachs point to them being little older than Vasojevici, and that Vasojevici come from there (Herzegovina), so go to poreklo where you have so many Krici cousins and talk to some Vasojevici there. As Rugovac would say you are the only Albanian with so many cousins among Serbs and no ALbanian relatives. :)



we can see that E-v13 was very low initially at new coming Slavs. They probably had around 1-3 % of E-v13 as it is even today normal percentages for East and West slavic countries.

Yes very low indeed (in Slavs). But still E-V13 has some presence there (likely non-Slavic Dacian/Cimmerian, some Greek). Many are likely some Dacian tribes.



And we even happen to find Ukrainian and Russian clades among E-v13s.

And my own E-Z17107 is one of them. Two Z17107, Z38456- clades found in Russians. In anonymous study of Lviv Ukraine we find both of these haplotypes! Their TMRCA is 2900 ybp also which is about 1000 more than the TMRCA of the Albanian BY4461. Also they are 2/154 in Lviv region has 2.5 million people so there are many Z17107 just there.
Also E-V13 is more common in Tatars on average, it also diverse, few clades might be Greek but most not so. I suspect many are Thraco-Cimmerian.



They share same origin and history with you, so being Montenegrin slavicized Albanians with Orthodox religion they declare as Serbs.


They share neither the same origin nor history with me. I am Montenegrin of Cuman Bulgarian ancestry. But similar origins to my own is shared by another PH1246: E-Y84931. You see Pole, and Armenian but also belonging there are Tatars and Hungarians! So this clade is very likely Nomadic and Steppe.


Remember, commercially tested members of my own clade are found in:
1) Komaran area Bijelo Polje (according to renowned Romanian historian this particular area is derived from Cumans), with villages of Bolgar etymology like Yarmen, Gostun, with recorded names nearby like Okor (derived from Bolgar Okorsis) etc. monastery Kumanica. My surname having a possible Cuman root as well, and it is found in Bulgaria alongside Cuman names in the same village near Plovdiv!


2) Pecenevce near Leskovac, next to it there is a village Cekmin, closest analogy is Cuman or Berendei khan Chekman Chagrovich, so this is no by accident.


3) Karcag, Cumania. An old baron family. Old in Karcag (derived from a chief Qarsaq). And there is evidence of Cuman ancestry for them.

Also of non-comercially tested/unpublished:
4) my cousin from Pester is likely from Krnja Jela where a land called Kuman was recorded in 1571
5) my cousin from Sofiya is from the center of Sofiya where village Kubratovo exists and it was renamed from Kumaniche, and it was per documents alco Kumaniche 400+ years ago.


All of those places have Türkic roots. Find me a single subclade anywhere on the Balkans with such matching!! It does not exist. And if it does it's a nomadic marker. And at the very least just looking at haplotypes of my cousins a Bijelo Polje <- Shop <- Cumania migratory path is totally consistent with my haplotypes. In Shop there is a large concentration of personal names like Yarmen and there is river Erma at the Serbian Buglarian border because the Ermi clan settled it and named it. And that's where my haplotypes on the Balkan are most frequent. And R-Z93 Yurmati clade is found in Macedonia and Bulgaria (in anonymous databases), so nobody can say these people weren't there.

It is already absolutely and logically impossible to defeat the thesis that my particular clade was picked up by Cumans/Pechenegs at the very least because all evidence suggests precisely that, but ofc I'm after far more than that..

This is a thread about Greek V13's, you are off-topic and you initiated going off-topic. And I'll bring one Greek, American kit 196900 found in Grevena, he likely belongs to my own clade though he lacks one STR value typical for it. His closest and I'd say certain match based on some STR's is a Romanian also. Further his match is a Kalmykian haplotype which looks like a likely member of my own clade as well. What is also interesting is that very near Grevena there is another village Gostun, and third is in SW Bulgaria where nearby I have cousins too. Bulgarian authors did connect these 3 villages to Bolgars.
Alongside that Kalmykian from the study a bunch of other Cuman hg's occur including the Bashkir Yurmati haplotype.


So there is a window for me for a Nomadic descent, which means a superior descent. I have not said anything of any other clade including Albanian Z17107, they have their own thing going on. But there is a gap of opportunity and I'm going for it, because a Steppe Nomad is better than a non-Steppe Nomad. And even being with Cumans, Bolgars for 100 years is more valuable than having your ancestors being Serbs, Croats, Vlachs, Albanians or what have you not for centuries.. Because nomadic Türks were better.


My cousin from Pecenevce village told me how their family are alot taller than average population of that region. I told him, its logical because what we descend from (Bolgars) as measured by their remains were giants, because again they were better...

A connection with Ermi is a likely direct connection with Gelonians, and Gelonians were buddies of Royal Scythians, which is an accomplishment because remember according to Royal Scythians the world is divided among Royal Scythians and scum born to serve them so having a respect of Royal Saka means that you are worth something.

Dacian or Cimmerian is my distant ancestry. And there is nothing really to discuss. Period. Now let's not go off-topic further.

Dema
31-03-19, 04:57
......

Quantity of the text does not represent quality. There is no need to get all nervous and jumpy, breathe slowly.

I would absolutely not care even if you were Martian or of Saturn origin, frankly. I am not saying out of a blue sky that you are of Albanian origin but rather every evidence fits very well. I understand that you are Serb today, or Montenegrin, but that you are regionally, historically, and finally Y-DNA wise connected with Albanians, and that you fall in Albanian Illyrian group, its undoubtedly certain.

You dont understand basics, and that TMRCA does not represent time of arrival but rather time when common ancestor of two or more persons lived. Some Greek groups can have higher TMRCA some can have lower, but that does mean automatically that these with lower TMRCA arrived later or that they didnt actually arrive in same time. I will not comment nonsense about M205 and other childish stuff that you were saying because obviously i hit the nerv. So lets continue with important things.

Why are you neglecting Z17107 among Albanians when its one of primary and largest Albanian E-V13 groups.
This subclade is represented in Mirdita Dibrri clan also in another variety all Albanian lands.
You are holding for Hungarians and Cumans while they have lower TMRCA, way less percentage, and they are not even same subclade like you and Albanians.
You share SNP Y30991 with Albanians and few assimilated Serbs, but not with Hungarians - https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y30991/
Hungarians are seems like small group also of Balkan origin. You mention them but you dont mention Albanians with who you fall in same group lol.

Furhtermore Albanians also have few brother clades to Z17107, so you are not lonely here, like Y84585 which also has Mirdita Albanians and Montenegrin inside, or group BY4590 which guess what, also has Albanian and Montenegrin inside.

You can look at main E-M35 group at FTDNA project, there also this group is dominated with Albanians. But somehow you see every possibility of origin of this group but not Illyrian or Albanian.

You can look here at my thread from year 2017 where i was already analyzing E-v13 among Slovenes and comparing it with Serbs, where i first brought theory that since Serbian and Slovene R1a and I2a subclades match, and they both speak same South Slavic language. Enormous lack of E-v13 in Slovens but also similar percentage of it in North and East Slavs must give a big hint that original Slavs actually had more realistically 3 % of E-v13, just as Slovenes and majority of Slavs do. 20 % or 30 % of E-v13 among Montenegrins and Serbs is not just a huge anomaly for all Slavic lands, but also for South Slavs like Slovenes, Croats, Bosnjaks, Hercegovianians and so on. http://www.foleja.net/index.php?topic=390.0


Furthermore dont tell me about Vasojevici when i analysed their clade also more then one year ago, i remember clearly that Vasojevici have longest history and are established Montenegrin tribe, while only few Croats, Bosnjaks or Slovens matching them, even tho not from recent tribal time, still have Albanian Montenegrin low 1000 years TMRCA from a Montenegrin people bearing classic Albanian group speaking Albanian language.

The only reason why you are Serb today is because of slavicization of your native Illyro Albanian lands and Orthodox religion, if you were Catholic you would be Croat. Or if you would be Muslim you would be Bosnjak.

Aspurg
31-03-19, 11:52
Quantity of the text does not represent quality.
.....

I have laid out most that needs to be laid out. E-V13 is not Illyrian. Illyrians were assimilated and fully romanized. Illyrian language was Centum, Thracian was Satem, Albanian is Satem. A whole lot of romanized Illyrians got owned by a bunch of E-V13 and R1b heavy Bessi and had Thracian Bessian language imposed upon them. So Thracians > Illyrians I'm afraid.

No E-V13 is ultimately of "Illyrian" ancestry and all of V13's bar few PH1246 stem from a Thracian territory 4000 ybp. The ancestor of CTS9320 also began spreading from Thracian territory 2900 years ago as part of a Thracian culture double digit IQ fake Albanian Demi boy.

LABERIA
31-03-19, 12:15
I have laid out most that needs to be laid out. E-V13 is not Illyrian. Illyrians were assimilated and fully romanized. Illyrian language was Centum, Thracian was Satem, Albanian is Satem. A whole lot of romanized Illyrians got owned by a bunch of E-V13 and R1b heavy Bessi and had Thracian Bessian language imposed upon them. So Thracians > Illyrians I'm afraid.
No E-V13 is ultimately of "Illyrian" ancestry and all of V13's bar few PH1246 stem from a Thracian territory 4000 ybp. The ancestor of CTS9320 also began spreading from Thracian territory 2900 years ago as part of a Thracian culture double digit IQ fake Albanian Demi boy.
Dema is Albanian, a real one and not a fake. You are a slav, pick one of different identities among south slavs and be happy with it.
Regarding the soup that you have served here, a mix of folktales, pseudo history and genetics, it's useless to waste my time.

Aspurg
31-03-19, 12:26
genetics, it's useless to waste my time.

Which is not something you know anything about as you don't even know your own haplogroup.

LABERIA
31-03-19, 12:47
Which is not something you know anything about as you don't even know your own haplogroup.
You know even this!!! And how do you know this? lol
In my humble opinion this thread needs some intervention from the moderators.

Aspurg
31-03-19, 12:55
You are a slav, pick one of different identities among south slavs and be happy with it.


The blood will tell.. I'm proud of my superior genetics:

MDLP K23b
Using 4 populations approximation:
++++
1 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Hungarian_ + Pole_ + South_German_ @ 1.165675
2 Belarusian-East_ + Belarusian_South_ + Greek_Northwest_ + Greek_Northwest_ @ 1.188049
3 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Croat_BH_ + English_ + Pole_ @ 1.204579
4 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Croat_ + North_German_ + Sorb_ @ 1.206079
5 Austrian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Slovenian_ + Sorb_ @ 1.207398
6 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Croat_BH_ + English_Kent_GBR_ + Mixed_East_Slav_ @ 1.209378
7 Belarusian_Russian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Croat_BH_ + English_Kent_GBR_ @ 1.214662
8 Bulgarian_ + Greek_Northwest_ + Russian_South_ + Ukrainian_West_ @ 1.233659
9 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Croat_BH_ + North_European_ + Pole_ @ 1.233775
10 Greek_Northwest_ + Greek_Northwest_ + Pole_ + Russian-West_ @ 1.236720
11 Bosnian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + North_German_ + Sorb_ @ 1.242020
12 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Croat_BH_ + North_German_ + Sorb_ @ 1.249457
13 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Pole_ + Slovenian_ + South_German_ @ 1.250867
14 Belarusian_South_ + Greek_Northwest_ + Greek_Northwest_ + Russian_South_ @ 1.255644
15 Austrian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Kashub_ + Slovenian_ @ 1.257333
16 Austrian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Czech_ + Kashub_ @ 1.260701
17 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Italian_Bergamo_ + Latvian_ + Ukrainian_ @ 1.262993
18 Austrian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Hungarian_ + Sorb_ @ 1.263633
19 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + North_German_ + Serb_BH_ + Sorb_ @ 1.266108
20 Bosnian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + English_Kent_GBR_ + Mixed_East_Slav_ @ 1.269273

10853

I am the most Steppe/Uralic shifted South Slav you are going to encounter. People have to cluster alot more to the North of me to match my autosomal basal R results (ofc Qun people were dominately R-Z93 and R-M73). And trust me I look like a Steppe maniac as well, so not your usual S.Slav, let alone Albanian..

LABERIA
31-03-19, 12:58
The blood will tell.. I'm proud of my superior genetics:

MDLP K23b
Using 4 populations approximation:
++++
1 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Hungarian_ + Pole_ + South_German_ @ 1.165675
2 Belarusian-East_ + Belarusian_South_ + Greek_Northwest_ + Greek_Northwest_ @ 1.188049
3 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Croat_BH_ + English_ + Pole_ @ 1.204579
4 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Croat_ + North_German_ + Sorb_ @ 1.206079
5 Austrian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Slovenian_ + Sorb_ @ 1.207398
6 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Croat_BH_ + English_Kent_GBR_ + Mixed_East_Slav_ @ 1.209378
7 Belarusian_Russian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Croat_BH_ + English_Kent_GBR_ @ 1.214662
8 Bulgarian_ + Greek_Northwest_ + Russian_South_ + Ukrainian_West_ @ 1.233659
9 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Croat_BH_ + North_European_ + Pole_ @ 1.233775
10 Greek_Northwest_ + Greek_Northwest_ + Pole_ + Russian-West_ @ 1.236720
11 Bosnian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + North_German_ + Sorb_ @ 1.242020
12 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Croat_BH_ + North_German_ + Sorb_ @ 1.249457
13 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Pole_ + Slovenian_ + South_German_ @ 1.250867
14 Belarusian_South_ + Greek_Northwest_ + Greek_Northwest_ + Russian_South_ @ 1.255644
15 Austrian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Kashub_ + Slovenian_ @ 1.257333
16 Austrian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Czech_ + Kashub_ @ 1.260701
17 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Italian_Bergamo_ + Latvian_ + Ukrainian_ @ 1.262993
18 Austrian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + Hungarian_ + Sorb_ @ 1.263633
19 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + North_German_ + Serb_BH_ + Sorb_ @ 1.266108
20 Bosnian_ + Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ + English_Kent_GBR_ + Mixed_East_Slav_ @ 1.269273

10848

I am the most Steppe/Uralic shifted South Slav you are going to encounter. People have to cluster alot more to the North of me to match my autosomal basal R results (ofc Qun people were dominately R-Z93 and R-M73). And trust me I look like a Steppe maniac as well, so not your usual S.Slav, let alone Albanian..

Great, very sexy results.

Aspurg
31-03-19, 13:28
Great, very sexy results.

Agreed for once.


You know even this!!! And how do you know this? lol

Because I have a thing for small details and some of your Albanians mentioned it here.



In my humble opinion this thread needs some intervention from the moderators.

Sure, I posted my own analysis of Greek V13's the most comprehensive ever produced by anyone thus far, 100 % on topic and 100 % productive, yet Dema likely incapable of even comprehending what was said (double digit IQ etc.), got upset that I'm getting some love from Albanians (they posted my analysis on Albanian forum) he's not getting and like a spoiled child started going off topic so he could get some attention.

Trojet
31-03-19, 13:36
I have isolated E-V13 clades that as of now occur in Greeks or can be certainly identified based on STR's, and based on diversity of clades and closeness and location of their their matches I added some of my clues about their likely ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>Y30977>Y37092/BY14151* an isolated clade without matches found in Kyklades, likely arrived in Greece in EBA, likely/possibly with Cetina people. Ancient Greek.

E-V13>Z1057>Y30977>Y37092>BY14151* (very likely a parallel clade) One Greek from Argos area seems to possibly cluster with the Serbian Vasojevici clan (7/37), but hard to say without deeper tests how distant he is to them. So he could be either Ancient Greek or Vlach.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>S7461>BY5022>Y150909>Y150909a - Found in Arcadia. Ancient Greek. One Asia Minor sample likely clusters with him, and might have something to do with Myceneans, though with TMRCA 3000 it boomed later. S7461 has generally highest diversity in Thrace/Bulgaria so it ultimately derives from there.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>BY4684>Z19851>Z19851a - Found in a Greek from Aetolia, and based on STR's one from Pelopenesus in a study. Also found in Aromanians from Albania and Aromanian from Cogalniceanu Romania who has an identical haplotype. Certain Vlach origin.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>BY4684* - Found in two Greeks from Thessaly and Greek Thrace who cluster together. Also closely matching to them on STR's are 4 Basarabi individuals from Romania (Basarabi study). A more distant BY4684* is found around Balkan mountain in Bulgaria. Vlach ancestry for this clade seems certain.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377* - A Greek with a surname suggesting Vlach origin, clusetrs closely (4/37) with a Bulgarian from Central Balkan Mountains so he must be of Vlach ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z17264 - One of the most common E-V13 clades in Greece. 2 samples at YFull and also a Bulgarian sample also clusters with Greeks (dys439=9, dys448=19). Ancient Greek definitely but paternal CTS9320 has far greater diversity to the North so it likely arrived to Greece from the North in EIA. It is generally frequent in Asia Minor Greeks, Greek Macedonia, and Greek islanders. Found also on Cyprus.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z17107>Z38456>BY4461>Y97307 Found in a number of Greeks from Greece in various locations: Asia Minor, Peloponnesus (study). Also a few of Turks cluster with Asia Minor Greeks and ultimately Albanians. Arvanite ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z16988>A11837 An ethnic Greek from Southern Albania clusters closely with a Serb from Shop and a Serb from Sumadija. Likely Vlach ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320* (Z16988-, Z17107-, Z17264-, S19928-) - One Greek from Greek Thrace, might be Ancient Greek or Thracian. He is not tested to some other newer parallel branches under CTS9320.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y35953>PF6784 - Common in Pontic Greeks, yet also have two parallel clades in Poland and Slovakia at TMRCA of 3400, indicating it too arrived from the North in MBA/LBA. Ancient Greek.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>FGC33621>A10158 - Found in a Greek from Western Crete. Clusters with an American. Ancient Greek but parallel clades are found in Northern Albania as well as in Central Bulgaria. TMRCA of 2900 ybp suggests arrival to Greece from the North in EIA.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>FGC11451>FGC11450>Y146086 Found in a Greek from Aetolia and another Greek. They closely cluster with Albanians. Arvanite ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>FGC11451>FGC11450* (DYS458=14/DYS460=10) Found in a Greek from Euboia and one Greek from Phocaea. They closely cluster with Albanians. Arvanite ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183* - based on specific STR's found in a number of Greeks from Corinthia and Greek Macedonia. They cluster closely with a Macedonian (tested at Y37 and SNP confirmed as Y3183*), Romanian, Hungarian and a Bulgarian. Considering the diversity of Y3183 in Bulgaria they probably have Vlach ancestry, also some Aromanian samples might cluster with them, but Aromanians lack certain important STR's to assign them to this clade with certainty.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>Z16661>S2978 - Found in several Greeks from Messinia, Peloponnesus. Very likely Ancient Greek but considering diversity of Z16661 north of Greece it likely arrived to greece in LBA or EIA. Some Eastern and Sardinian samples might fit into Greek colonisation.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>A7135>A7136 - Found in a Greek from Laconia. Very likely Ancient Greek, yet the high diversity of BY5430 (under A7135) in Central-Eastern Balkans clearly suggests the origin from the North (Eastern Balkans) and arrival to Greece in EIA.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>L241 - Two Greeks are L241+ but without deeper tests. One from Messinia and one from Arcadia (?). Likely Ancient Greeks had their own specific clades of L241. Additionally a significant percentage of Cypriot E-V13 from studies is certainly related to a Cypriot Greek who tested Y37 and who seems almost certainly L241. Based on some STR's they might belong to L241>Z38770 subclade. L241 has plenty of diversity in more Northern areas of the Balkan so it seems Greek L241 arrived to Greece in EIA.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y16729* - One Greek clusters closely with a Macedonian and a number of Aromanians. Vlach ancestry.

Edit:
E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273* (Z16663-, S3003-, S7461-, PH1246-, Z5017-, Z5018-, Y16729-, Y19509-, BY6527-, FGC14092-) - I forgot one Cypriot who doesn't cluster with anyone, so Ancient Greek with likely older MBA presence in Greece.

Additionally
E-CTS1273* YF12550 is an ethnic Bulgarian from N.Greece, not a Greek.
E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y19508* found in Malta might have something to do with Ancient Greeks.


Generally it seems most of Ancient Greek V13's arrived to Greece in LBA-EIA timeframe.

Nicely done, Aspurg!

LABERIA
31-03-19, 13:47
Agreed for once.



Because I have a thing for small details and some of your Albanians mentioned it here.



Sure, I posted my own analysis of Greek V13's the most comprehensive ever produced by anyone thus far, 100 % on topic and 100 % productive, yet Dema likely incapable of even comprehending what was said (double digit IQ etc.), got upset that I'm getting some love from Albanians (they posted my analysis on Albanian forum) he's not getting and like a spoiled child started going off topic so he could get some attention.

Did you checked your "sources"?

markod
31-03-19, 15:11
I have laid out most that needs to be laid out. E-V13 is not Illyrian. Illyrians were assimilated and fully romanized. Illyrian language was Centum, Thracian was Satem, Albanian is Satem. A whole lot of romanized Illyrians got owned by a bunch of E-V13 and R1b heavy Bessi and had Thracian Bessian language imposed upon them. So Thracians > Illyrians I'm afraid.
No E-V13 is ultimately of "Illyrian" ancestry and all of V13's bar few PH1246 stem from a Thracian territory 4000 ybp. The ancestor of CTS9320 also began spreading from Thracian territory 2900 years ago as part of a Thracian culture double digit IQ fake Albanian Demi boy.

We don't really know whether Illyrian was Centum or Satem, and Proto-Albanian was in all likelihood neither (splitting off before the development of those isoglosses, like the Anatolian languages).

It is possible that archaic Albanian languages predated Thracian in the wider Balkanic region.

If E-V13 expanded in the Bronze Age, presumably from the Balkans, what languages was this expansion associated with if not languages ancestral to Albanian?

Aspurg
31-03-19, 16:35
Did you checked your "sources"?


No, are they wrong, or you tested recently?



We don't really know whether Illyrian was Centum or Satem, and Proto-Albanian was in all likelihood neither (splitting off before the development of those isoglosses, like the Anatolian languages).


It is possible that archaic Albanian languages predated Thracian in the wider Balkanic region.


Well I've read some views about Albanian having more Thracian affinity from an ex-Yugo linguist, but Albanian definitely does contain Illyrian elements as well.




If E-V13 expanded in the Bronze Age, presumably from the Balkans, what languages was this expansion associated with if not languages ancestral to Albanian?

E-CTS1273 per all current evidence became very widespread in Eastern Balkans 4000 years ago, prior to that there was no V13 in Eastern Balkans (no PH1246 there), it got to there either from Western Balkans or from the Carpathian region. The latter is probably likely as there is E-L540 with no Balkan connection, Ossetian E-CTS1273*, as well as Kurdish E-CTS1273* without BigY yet (but he's confirmed negative for most clades).

Subsequently some of clades one finds in Greece got there much later, but it is crystal clear most of Greek V13's are later migrants.

The fact that E-V13 is very common today in Albanians does not necessarily means it must be associated with the language etc. or at least some of its clades. For example when one looks at the ratio of E-V13 and J-L283 the ratio of L283 to E-V13 in Albanians is far higher than it is in Bulgarians or Romanians.

Already in aDNA there is one Thracian E-V13 as well as one Scythian E-V13 (likely of Daco-Getic extraction autosomally).

Albanian V13 clades both under E-Z5017 and E-Z5018 have less diversity than Bulgarian counterparts (and more Albanians are deeper tested), not to speak of clades such as E-S7461, E-Y16729..
Albanian E-V13's have multiple bottlenecks, (as do Serb/Montenegrin V13's) Bulgarian don't, or far less so..

Some younger E-V13 clades are very likely involved with Illyrian movements and are Illyrian, others are downright illyrianized Triballians.

Your compatriot Gottfried Schramm made a thesis about Bessian descent of Albanians. Today it can be said that is not true from a genetic POV for most Albanians but neither is it true for many other peoples such as Hungarians etc.


There are clades in Albanians which likely have Medieval Eastern Balkan origin. Those are E-FGC11450>Y146086, E-Z5018* and R-PF7563* clusters, of those most important. In addition much is speculated about the R-Z2705, recent evidence points to a more Western ancestry though.


There is clear undeniable archaeological evidence that Bessi survived and resisted Romanization well into Antiquity. Here is the evidence posted by Serbian mod (who is an archaeologist)
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=1882.0


There is also evidence for Illyrian remnants in Komani culture to have survived. And I'm sure Albanian L283 have lots to do with it (as well as various E-V13's, possibly R-Z2705's). But remember that Bessian language is also attested by the biography of Saint Theodosius the Cenobiarch as still alive in 5th century, no such evidence can be mustered for Illyrian.


Ultimately the best way of determining the exact nature of Albanian is to have Messapian better reconstructed and to find some manuscripts in Bessian which might still exist and compare Albanian with them..


So I will stay away from the emotional arguments that try to argue from the point of view of a necessity "to be old in an area before others"..

markod
31-03-19, 17:02
No, are they wrong, or you tested recently?





Well I've read some views about Albanian having more Thracian affinity from an ex-Yugo linguist, but Albanian definitely does contain Illyrian elements as well.




E-CTS1273 per all current evidence became very widespread in Eastern Balkans 4000 years ago, prior to that there was no V13 in Eastern Balkans (no PH1246 there), it got to there either from Western Balkans or from the Carpathian region. The latter is probably likely as there is E-L540 with no Balkan connection, Ossetian E-CTS1273*, as well as Kurdish E-CTS1273* without BigY yet (but he's confirmed negative for most clades).

Subsequently some of clades one finds in Greece got there much later, but it is crystal clear most of Greek V13's are later migrants.

The fact that E-V13 is very common today in Albanians does not necessarily means it must be associated with the language etc. or at least some of its clades. For example when one looks at the ratio of E-V13 and J-L283 the ratio of L283 to E-V13 in Albanians is far higher than it is in Bulgarians or Romanians.

Already in aDNA there is one Thracian E-V13 as well as one Scythian E-V13 (likely of Daco-Getic extraction autosomally).

Albanian V13 clades both under E-Z5017 and E-Z5018 have less diversity than Bulgarian haplotypes (and more Albanians are deeper tested), not to speak of clades such as E-S7461, E-Y16729..
Albanian E-V13's have multiple bottlenecks, (as do Serb/Montenegrin V13's) Bulgarian don't, or far less so..


Your compatriot Gottfried Schramm made a thesis about Bessian descent of Albanians. Today it can be said that is not true from a genetic POV for most Albanians but neither is it true for many other peoples such as Hungarians etc.


There are clades in Albanians which likely have Medieval Eastern Balkan origin. Those are E-FGC11450>Y146086, E-Z5018* and R-PF7563* clusters, of those most important. In addition much is speculated about the R-Z2705, recent evidence points to a more Western ancestry though.


There is clear undeniable archaeological evidence that Bessi survived and resisted Romanization well into Antiquity. Here is the evidence posted by Serbian mod (who is an archaeologist)
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=1882.0


There is also evidence for Illyrian remnants in Komani culture to have survived. And I'm sure Albanian L283 have lots to do with it (as well as various E-V13's, possibly R-Z2705's). But remember that Bessian language is also attested by the biography of Saint Theodosius the Cenobiarch as still alive in 5th century, no such evidence can be mustered for Illyrian.


Ultimately the best way of determining the exact nature of Albanian is to have Messapian better reconstructed and to find some manuscripts in Bessian which might still exist and compare Albanian with them..


So I will stay away from the emotional arguments that try to argue from the point of view of a necessity "to be old in an area before others"..

This is impossible, Thracian shows clear developments that place it with the northern IE languages, in particular B-S. The arrival of the nomadic Thracians in the regions we know them to have lived in might have been quite late. An early to middle Bronze Age diversification of E-V13 can only correspond to the expansion of a very archaic branch of Indo-European.

The only extant language that could derive from such an archaic lndo-European layer is Albanian, and modern Albanian still shows some of the features that one would expect to find in an old IE survival.

It's not an emotional argument for me, as I have no connections to Albania.

Aspurg
31-03-19, 17:40
This is impossible, Thracian shows clear developments that place it with the northern IE languages, in particular B-S.

I'm aware of such views but I can refer to you later some linguistic views. I haven't studied those areas like I have Turkic and Iranic languages..



The arrival of the nomadic Thracians in the regions we know them to have lived in might have been quite late.

What evidence you have Thracians were that "Nomadic"? Bronze Age R-Z93 sample? His cultural horizont in not well researched, genetically he was fully Steppe Iranian, Srubnaya, nothing to do with Slavs or Baltics (they lack strong Gedrosia/Caucasian component Proto-Iranics had since Andronovo culture).

In fact one likely scenario that caused Satemization of Thracian is influence of Iranic Cimmerians.

Genetically speaking two clades of Y5587 are found in Bulgaria with a TMRCA of 4400 vbp. Those might have developed the original Thracian language.
Also likely BY250 is Eastern Balkans as well, but needs more testing. In Bulgaria of R-Z93's of 5 (which is still 5 more clades than zero found in Serbs or Albanians) clades 4 are Bulgar/Cuman.

The only scenario is where some Baltic R-Z92 gets involved. Balto-Slavic invaders of Thrace? Laughable. :laughing: Balto-Slavs were very un-nomadic.

Also you are very wrong from an archaeological POV which does indicates various levels of continuity from BA to IA in Thracian areas.




An early to middle Bronze Age diversification of E-V13 can only correspond to the expansion of a very archaic branch of Indo-European.

In such a case it can only correspond to a proto-Greek, what do you think those V13's coming to Greece spoke? "Illyrian"? Mind you E-V13 almost certainly has relation to Cetina, and Bubanj Hum III and Armenochori groups are partially derived from Cetina, in those two groups the evidence of Minyan ware is found (associated with first Greek speakers). Greek authors tried to downplay these for their biased reasons (the same reason Albanians, and others are driven by, the need to prove that your own culture has an unending line until the first Amoeba) so that Minyan ware developed in Greece and that proto-Greeks never migrated to Greece. :laughing:

You are assuming Illyrian was that old. In fact if Illyrian was Centum it was likely or certainly propagated by various Central European R1b-U152 clades such as some found in Herzegovina these are fully archaeologically correspondent with strong Urnfield element which formed Illyrians. Illyrians prior to Urnfield invasion do not exist. I suspect R-U152 along the way and it is very questionable what was the "Illyrian" language. J-L283 likely spoke a different language ( remember those "Illyrians and real Illyrians"). R-U152 clades are today very rare in Albanians, L283's have little/nothing to do with Urnfield. Some younger V13 clades, ZS3128>ZS6908 might have something to do with it..

But the point is archaeologically a late Urnfield movement was crucial in Illyrian formation. And hence Illyrians were a younger Balkan group. proto-"Illyrian" language 3200 years ago was spoken in Central Europe not in the Balkans. Unless the language of pre Urnfield L283 Delmatae etc. is the precursor of modern Albanian.

So J-L283/pre-Urnfield Illyrians and Urnfield almost certainly did not speak the same language.

You might not be familiar with the archaeological evidence in Illyrian areas but trust me I am very familiar.

There is no such thing as an Illyrian continuity from EBA/MBA to Antiquity. It does not exist. It was broken by the Urnfield movement and these people were clearly very culturally different from the indigenous population.

markod
31-03-19, 18:01
The Thracians were so thoroughly nomadic they had a taboo on agriculture. Plutarch still refers to Spartacus as a nomad, indicating that they never became sedentary.

If one sees the Thracians as northern invaders, the problem of the earliest ethnographic account of the region in which Homer places enigmatic Pelasgoi between the Greeks in the south and the Thracians in the north is nicely resolved as well.

Aspurg
31-03-19, 18:42
The Thracians were so thoroughly nomadic they had a taboo on agriculture. Plutarch still refers to Spartacus as a nomad, indicating that they never became sedentary.


By Nomadic I mean living in tents without settlements, living on a horse, my "Nomadic" means Scythian Nomadic. They were certainly not Nomadic in that sense.

Aspurg
31-03-19, 18:59
If one sees the Thracians as northern invaders, the problem of the earliest ethnographic account of the region in which Homer places enigmatic Pelasgoi between the Greeks in the south and the Thracians in the north is nicely resolved as well.

Well that is the usual old narrative for E-V13 from 10 years ago, bunch of "black farmers who got owned.." But the problem is he mentions them in Larissa area, you've got some V13 there but it seems mostly of recent Vlach extraction.

Are Pelasgians native to Bulgaria and then proceed to invade Greece in LBA/EIA? Does that make sense? I thought Pelasgians are native to Greece.. On Lemnos island (where real Pelasgians lived) you have a rare G2a clade found, I'm far more inclined to connect that to Pelasgians. Also Pelasgians were Tyrsenians, E-V13 ancestors in Neolithic were culturally a very different bunch in comparison to G2a Neolithic peoples I can tell you. They weren't farmers in any typical way to begin with.. And early Cetina people (likely or certainly V13) were highly Nomadic. it is the culture where L283 was found that was fond of settlements and for Cetina settlements were rare.

Leka
31-03-19, 19:16
Lets not forget guys that Bulgaria is a melting pot. As a region was repopulated multiple times since the Bronze Age, hence the diversity.

Ralphie Boy
31-03-19, 20:32
Does anyone know if any genetic studies are coming soon from ancient Greece? They found a lot of skeletons from the archaic period, thought to be Cylon’s followers who were killed when he tried to do a coup in Athens. Hopefully they can find useable DNA from the archaic, classical or Hellenistic periods, like they did with Mycenaeans and Minoans.

Johane Derite
31-03-19, 20:33
Why haven't these 300 tumuli in Ancient Macedonia been tested:

300 tumuli in Piera, the Makedones' home according to Hesiod, archeologically shows that Illyrians & Phrygians ruled there until at least 650 BC. Pre-historic Macedonia archaeologically shows an invasion from "northern people" around 1150BC and little Mycenean influence.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2L5f6BX0AIyIG6.jpg:large

Kelmendasi
31-03-19, 20:58
Does anyone know if any genetic studies are coming soon from ancient Greece? They found a lot of skeletons from the archaic period, thought to be Cylon’s followers who were killed when he tried to do a coup in Athens. Hopefully they can find useable DNA from the archaic, classical or Hellenistic periods, like they did with Mycenaeans and Minoans.
It has been mentioned on Anthrogenica that there is an upcoming paper on Bronze Age Greece. The paper is most likely not going to include classical age samples though and only Bronze Age ones. There is also an upcoming paper on south Italian samples iirc.

Trojet
31-03-19, 21:59
You are assuming Illyrian was that old. In fact if Illyrian was Centum it was likely or certainly propagated by various Central European R1b-U152 clades such as some found in Herzegovina these are fully archaeologically correspondent with strong Urnfield element which formed Illyrians. Illyrians prior to Urnfield invasion do not exist. I suspect R-U152 along the way and it is very questionable what was the "Illyrian" language. J-L283 likely spoke a different language ( remember those "Illyrians and real Illyrians"). R-U152 clades are today very rare in Albanians, L283's have little/nothing to do with Urnfield. Some younger V13 clades, J1 clade of Kelmendasi might have something to do with it..

But the point is archaeologically a late Urnfield movement was crucial in Illyrian formation. And hence Illyrians were a younger Balkan group. proto-"Illyrian" language 3200 years ago was spoken in Central Europe not in the Balkans. Unless the language of pre Urnfield L283 Delmatae etc. is the precursor of modern Albanian.

So J-L283/pre-Urnfield Illyrians and Urnfield almost certainly did not speak the same language.

You might not be familiar with the archaeological evidence in Illyrian areas but trust me I am very familiar.

There is no such thing as an Illyrian continuity from EBA/MBA to Antiquity. It does not exist. It was broken by the Urnfield movement and these people were clearly very culturally different from the indigenous population.

While some Illyrians (perhaps northern ones) could have had R-U152, I very much doubt that this would've been among their main haplos. The modern R-U152 clades in NW Balkans could be as a result of different migrations, such as Celts, Romans, Germanics, etc. There is also a disagreement on how much the Urnfield Culture had an impact on the ethnogenesis of the Illyrians. For example, read this:

"Rather, archaeologists from the former Yugoslavia highlighted the continuity between the Bronze and succeeding Iron Age (especially in regions such as Donja Dolina, central Bosnia-Glasinac, and northern Albania (Mat river basin)), ultimately developing the so-called "autochthonous theory" of Illyrian genesis.[14] The "autochthonous" model was most elaborated upon by Alojz Benac and B. Čović. They argued (following the "Kurgan hypothesis") that the 'proto-Illyrians' had arrived much earlier, during the Bronze Age as nomadic Indo-Europeans from the steppe. From that point, there was a gradual Illyrianization of the western Balkans leading to historic Illyrians, with no early Iron Age migration from northern Europe. He did not deny a minor cultural impact from the northern Urnfield cultures, however "these movements had neither a profound influence on the stability.. of the Balkans, nor did they affect the ethnogenesis of the Illyrian ethnos".[15]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians#Origins


Also, as pointed by markod, it is not known whether Illyrian was a Centum or a Satem language, or even if "all Illyrians" spoke the same language.

Ownstyler
31-03-19, 22:43
I would like to see some R-U152 clusters that are found only in the countries of Yugoslavia, and have no connection to Italians for 2000-3000 years. The eastern Adriatic coast had plenty of exchanges with the western one from the Romans onward, so without SNP-tested R-U152 clades exclusive to NW Balkans, it is difficult to choose between Illyrian, Celtic, Roman and Italian ancestry for these results. Let's remember that there has been a sizeable Italian speaking community in several towns from Dalmatia to Istria at least since the time of the Venetians. Only SNP testing can rule out some of these possibilities.

As for E-V13, let's just keep in mind that clades that are present in both Albanians and Bulgarians aren't automatically Thracian as movements cannot have been one-directional. We have to look at the diversity of LBA and IE mutations. And again, only a few tests per clade are not enough. I don't see strongly Thracian or proto-/pre-/Thracian clusters in E-V13 as, for example, in R-Y5586.

Dema
31-03-19, 23:02
I told you strait away that you are of Montenegrin origin, or most likely surroundings like South Serbia, Sanxhak etc.
I mentioned Krajina only because of your Bosnian flag. Thinking that you are Bosnian Serb with Montenegrin vlacho albanian origin.
Its impossible for me to know these things if i dont have magical crystal ball or if in fact i dont have a clue about various Balkan clades and inner complicated history.

Montenegro, South Serbia, parts of Macedonia, are viciously known for assimilation of Albanians into Slavic mostly Serbian ethnos. Especially in the last 1000 years.
So its not even relevant that your subclade E-v13>Z17107 is dominated within Albanians where you share TMRCA 2900 years with all of these masses of various Albanians.
Its not even important few extraordinary Magyar or Russian or American samples samples that you managed to find somewhere.

But how do you explain that there are also other smaller brother clades of Z17107 that are also found among Albanians and miracally assimilated Montenegrins again who happen to be neighbors from these places where Albanians assimilate into Serbo Montenegrin ethnos. Like BY4222 and Y84585.
Do you understand that this kind of abnormal percentage of E-v13 among Montenegrins and Serbs is results of process of assimilation of Albanians in most recent time?
Do you understand that other South Slavs like Slovenes who talk same language and have same R1a+I2a clades have only 3 % of E-v13 and all these clades are alien to them?
Montenegrins and Serbs have them only because of recent process of assimilating Albanians and geographic proximity to them. As everyone knows. You can maybe tell stories to strangers but in Montenegro, Serbia, Kosovo and Albania everyone knows. Even wider.

You are classic montenegricized Šiptar with classic Šiptar haplogroup lying here about your Tatar, Hunic, Avar, Russian, etc origins......



I have laid out most that needs to be laid out. E-V13 is not Illyrian. Illyrians were assimilated and fully romanized. Illyrian language was Centum, Thracian was Satem, Albanian is Satem. A whole lot of romanized Illyrians got owned by a bunch of E-V13 and R1b heavy Bessi and had Thracian Bessian language imposed upon them. So Thracians > Illyrians I'm afraid.

Albanians are best proof that Illyrians didnt get fully romanized, besides Illyrians, Thracians and Greeks for sure had good portion of E-v13 so thinking that E-v13 was Thracian but not Illyrian is very stupid to say at least.



No E-V13 is ultimately of "Illyrian" ancestry and all of V13's bar few PH1246 stem from a Thracian territory 4000 ybp. The ancestor of CTS9320 also began spreading from Thracian territory 2900 years ago as part of a Thracian culture double digit IQ fake Albanian Demi boy.

E-v13 is as i said connected with IE Bronze age expansion, at least major clades that seem to survive BY6550, Y30977, and CTS5856.
Also it has great diversity and percentages here. It for sure belongs to paleo-balkan population that spread with Illyrians, Greeks, Italic tribes and others.
Big majority of Serbian and Montenegrin but also Macedonian E-v13 is in fact recently in last 1000 years assimilated within Albanians. Your clade is here for sure included.
I am maybe fake Albanian or maybe real one, but i let that to judge people from real life and not as it looks like internet morons like yourself. I thought that you are grown up man but seems im dealing with an half grown adult.




The blood will tell.. I'm proud of my superior genetics:



10853

I am the most Steppe/Uralic shifted South Slav you are going to encounter. People have to cluster alot more to the North of me to match my autosomal basal R results (ofc Qun people were dominately R-Z93 and R-M73). And trust me I look like a Steppe maniac as well, so not your usual S.Slav, let alone Albanian..


You look like.... Internet ***** and moron, if you haven't notice, spear us of all the superiority complexes.
Besides your Huno Avar autosomal results dont have anything with your Montenegrin Šiptar Y-DNA.




Sure, I posted my own analysis of Greek V13's the most comprehensive ever produced by anyone thus far, 100 % on topic and 100 % productive, yet Dema likely incapable of even comprehending what was said (double digit IQ etc.), got upset that I'm getting some love from Albanians (they posted my analysis on Albanian forum) he's not getting and like a spoiled child started going off topic so he could get some attention.

I told you strait away good job on copy pasting clades from FTDNA projects, i was even polite. I was just critic over some name-tags and methods of knowing time of arrival and instead of explaining you started raging and behaving like abnormal person insulting my haplogroup, my look, me and everything. But i wont fall into that same level because simply i am higher than that. When you calm down maybe we can continue and then you can explain me why your theories have so many flaws in order to connect yourself to something that you are not. You are just roleplaying Avars and Mongols here because you happened to find one clade there while you ignore other much realistic facts.

Leka
31-03-19, 23:12
But how do you explain that there are also other smaller brother clades of Z17107 that are also found among Albanians and miracally assimilated Montenegrins again who happen to be neighbors from these places where Albanians assimilate into Serbo Montenegrin ethnos. Like BY4222 and Y84585.

YF010339 under Y84585 is actually Albanian from Tirane. The other sample is the Selita tribe from Mirdite. It's beyond me why he places the Montenegrin flag on YFull lol. Under BY4222 is a Kelmendi fella who identifies as "Bosnian" there.

Dema
31-03-19, 23:21
YF010339 under Y84585 is actually Albanian from Tirane. The other sample is the Selita tribe from Mirdite. It's beyond me why he places the Montenegrin flag on YFull lol


It was just fast sneak-peak at Yfull, im sure someone with better knowledge or someone who looked at situation more recently would find more samples.
This was 2 i got from Yfull and i dont want to bother with these stuff since its obvious.

So not only his paternal line is dominated within Albanians but even it has brother clades within Albanians some of them being from Kelmendi tribe.. lol i think this says something.

Dema
31-03-19, 23:29
Is it accident that he is from Montenegro, that in Montenegro Albanians got and still are heavily slavicized, that he got haplogroup E-v13 that dominates at Albanians but not at old 7 century incoming Slavs. Not at Slovens who are far away from Albanians and have only 3 % of E-v13 while they have same R1a and I2a clades like Serbs and they speak same language. Not at East and North Slavs. Is it accident that he matches Tons of Albanians, that he has clasic Albanian subclade, that he lives in Montenegro? He has this haplogroup and this clade only because he is assimilated Montenegrin Albanian or as i call myself Šiptar.

You were even recorded as Kuçi, even tho maybe you dont have Y-DNA direct connection with Kuçi tribals but you could have joined tribe or be called like that because of your Montenegrin Albanian origin and some interactions with Kuçi..

Kelmendasi
01-04-19, 01:32
YF010339 under Y84585 is actually Albanian from Tirane. The other sample is the Selita tribe from Mirdite. It's beyond me why he places the Montenegrin flag on YFull lol. Under BY4222 is a Kelmendi fella who identifies as "Bosnian" there.
He should change it back to the Albanian flag, placing the Montenegrin flag just because of supposed origin from there is a little odd imo considering that he is still an ethnic Albanian from Tirana and not one from Montenegro. Anyways, isn’t it more likely that his origin is from Mirdita?

Aspurg
01-04-19, 01:40
Do you understand that other South Slavs like Slovenes who talk same language and have same R1a+I2a clades have only 3 % of E-v13 and all these clades are alien to them?


It is idiotic to say that E-V13 is foreign to other areas, including some modern Slavic areas. You wish to downplay E-V13 numbers in non-Albanian areas because you being the sole Albanian with your haplotype have a need to prove that you are "greater Catholic than a Pope" by claiming ludicrous things..

Some scientific studies:

Ruthenians sample: 200
E-V13 12.5 % , including clades such as E-CTS9320>BY4253, S19928>BY20073, likely L241, E-BY14150, E-FGC11450..


Ukrainians Lvov sample: 154
E-V13 6.5 % (including 2 basal Z17107's whose TMRCA is 1000 greater than all Albanian Z17107's put together, also some other CTS9320's)


So you get far more than those 3 % in some areas of Ukraine. You have no right whatsoever to appropriate clades of E-V13 that have nothing to do with Albanian ethnicity, especially as all of these have absolutely nothing to do with Illyrians.




E-v13 was Thracian but not Illyrian is very stupid to say at least.


Illyrian yes (certain clades), but overall more Daco-Thracian yes.




Also it has great diversity and percentages here. It for sure belongs to paleo-balkan population that spread with Illyrians, Greeks, Italic tribes and others.


1. Thracians 2. Greeks 2. Dacians (tied in importance i'd say) 4. Illyrians and some have affinities with others...




You were even recorded as Kuçi, even tho maybe you dont have Y-DNA direct connection with Kuçi tribals but you could have joined tribe or be called like that because of your Montenegrin Albanian origin and some interactions with Kuçi..

It is irrelevant what is said in recently made up traditions. There are others more truthful which do not mention Kuchi, plus Lutovac never considered our clan as Kuchi.. Kuchi were not more powerful than my clan in 15th and 16th century. I am descendant of a ktitor of a Medieval Monastery/Church, very rare thing (as most ktitor families are of post-Medieval Churches), which is an indication for local nobility (read Kumanicic from Rudnik/Bijelo Polje area). My ancestors worked for the Ottomans as their troops and it worked well until the battle of Wiena, only then we started to lose our power and at that time a bunch of Kuci arrived (and Kuchi fought near Bijel Polje in 1687) so some of this kinship developed. But our distant ancestry is Shop region, no distant haplotypes of the Shop type are found in Montenegro or Western Balkans in general.
Even those Serb cousins I have in Shop are of likely recent Bulgarian origin. That is only reason why I dont yet know some of those because Serbs in those areas are afraid to test because of matching Bulgarians, which does happen often indeed.




You are classic montenegricized Šiptar with classic Šiptar haplogroup lying here about your Tatar, Hunic, Avar, Russian, etc origins......


Russian is a basal Z17107+, no reading on Y30991, Z38456-. Related to him another Russian 21/111 so this clade has been there for a long time.. American clade Z17107+, again no reading on Y30991, Z38456- all share alongside my clade for E-V13 unmodal value of dys439=13 (dys439=12 is modal), while being all distant to themselves. Accident? Very unlikely. And if there is just a single SNP we share this clade of my own has nothing to do with Balkans and everything to do with a bunch of Steppe maniacs for consecutive 2000 years..


Consider that even a thought of ******** a person whose paternal ancestors were likely sado-mazo maniacs might be a very bad idea. There are plenty of other non-Albanian, Serb or whatever V13's you can ***** around. With A24048 there is no messing around make no mistake about that.. Think about it, these are those who drank blood and used skulls as drinking cups.. Just take your usual Illyrian, Slav thing to someone in your lower league.





You look like.... Internet ***** and moron, if you haven't notice, spear us of all the superiority complexes.
Besides your Huno Avar autosomal results dont have anything with your Montenegrin Šiptar Y-DNA.

Well don't f*** around with Hunno-Avars weakling Dwarf because as so many times throughout history you know whats coming for you: pain.


Do not insult me honorless weakling, you may address me only as Dacian or Cimmerian in terms of my most distant origin. I have nothing to do with Montenegrins or Albanians by distant ancestry, but of the history I have in Montenegro I am proud of it. And as explained million times I'll do it once more, I have more cousins in Shop area who are more diverse and based on STR's its a certain migration from the Shop. I have relatives in Pecenevce, Sofiya, Pirot, Vranje and because Vranje haplotype looks most similar to him, likely the ethnic Macedonian is from around Kumanovo.


And as you (and your Serb friend, ex admin at poreklo Simo who also got destroyed by myself because he made a mistake once again at FTDNA trees when he tried to ***** me like you do right now) fail to remember (double digit IQ) is that I do have a member of my own clade from Qarsaq Cumania: E5882, he alongside Cluj haplotype are most distant certain (there is another likely in Kalmykia but he can't be 100 % guaranteed for now like these can) members of my own branch found thus far. These are all genetically alot closer to me than any Albanian Z17107>BY4461, than Lakic, and members of his branch.

If I wanted to be evil I could say that among Szekely occurs also basal BY4461>Y161798 (kit 111672), that among Bulgarians and Romanians is found a haplotype which is predicted as Z38456>BY4461 at FTDNA by the admins but which has various more distant values to Albanians. This haplotype does not exit in Albanians, and if it is Z38456+ you can throw any notion of BY4461 being Illyrian straight out of window. And then you might mention the Albanian word karpë for the rock and Carpathians, the Carpi Dacian tribe etc....


So Hungarians have two clades of Z17107, E-Y81971 these are not from Cumania itself, and my own E-A24048 from Greater Cumania. Eventually my cousins such as Karcag one will pop up at YFull as well.. And think of it why do I have thus far the only member of my clade in the heart of Cumania. If this is all accident he had of all 800 Hungarians equal chance of being found elsewhere, outside of Cuman areas but he didn't, he's in the core of Cumania and no doubt there are more of them.. And this family has done alot for the history of Cumans in Hungary, as there is evidence to suggest a connection with another family of certain Cuman ancestry..
If my clan was a random Vlach migration from Shop it would have had the equal chance of ending up in all neighboring areas, instead it ended up in an area with confirmed historical involvement of Bulgarians/Cumans: Bijelo Polje.
Same for my cousin from Pecenjevce, same with me why are we found in exactly the right places? Because we are the real deal. Are we the real deal since Free Dacians joining the Ermi or glorious Gelonians to be definitely determined.


And with Tengri's help I'll get more of cousins, make no mistake about it.


If 5 numbers are hard to remember for you maybe you can have them tattooed..


Good that you mentioned those two. And yes my Y-DNA also has Hunno-Avar connections.
Near Bijelo Polje are found:
Toholj, Dulo, Gostun, Yarmen, Okor


This is where they peak in number.


Avitohol lived 300 years. His clan was Dulo and his year (of ascending to the throne) dilom tvirem.
Irnik lived 150 years. His clan Dulo and his year dilom tverim.
Gostun, the regent, 2 years. His clan Ermi and his year dokhs tvirem.


Okor <- Kopan Okorsis


So it seems we knew the Nominalia or its elements. And of course leader of Avar siege of Constantinople was Ermitz, so many authors connect it with Avars. These people brought some light into the Balkano-Pripyat averageness and all you can do is moan.


There should really be a cap for posting on internet forums for sub-intelligent individuals, thinking is simply not for you.
I have been honorable and I addressed your points directly. Not once have you addressed any of my points directly, you are incapable of memorizing 5 numbers, clearly you are a low quality specimen, likely in Imbecile/Moron range rather than simply a double digit IQ.

I have squashed you in rational arguments, and you certainly would not have any guts to throw those "arguments" of yours in 4 eyes to me, honorless, lying, sneaky weakling thing called Demi-boy..
Anything that can be discussed with you has been discussed.. This is my clan, and others especially not Arnautasi albanized Serbs such as Dema have no business in putting my honorable clan into their mouth or uttering a word about it let alone talking about our origins, I was and am always eager to discuss anything with other Albanian Z17107's. The only other discussion is with you is through other methods, you'd be reciting every word that I have written here if we had this conversation in 4 eyes make no mistake about it..

Now out of my sight Demi-boy..

Dema
01-04-19, 03:00
Quantity of text does not represent quality, i already told you that finding one or two early separated extraordinary meaningless and for sure alien samples somewhere does not prove that entire clade originates there. We have examples like that in many clades, they on their own, dont mean anything but you dont understand that.
You are holding for thin sticks while you are neglecting entire mass of your exclusively Albanian relatives. You are neglecting epicenter of E-v13 where in these areas it goes up to 40 %. Highest in the world.

You again say that you are not connected with Albanians and Croatian Serbs like Lakic, while Yfull says that all of you are connected with 2900 years TMRCA and all of you share SNPs that Magyars for example that you mentioned earlier dont share. It just shows manipulation. Its clear that you are E-v13 only because of abnormal percentage of E-v13 among Montenegrins which is result of recent Albanian assimilation but also your clade is ultimately connected with Albanians, also its brother clades. You are so to say occupied in genetic sense of speaking.

Not just that you have classic Albanian haplogroup, not that you just have classic Albanian subclade where big majority of your relatives are Albanians but your subclade also have brother clades among Albanians like in Kelmendi tribe.
You were recorded ac Kuçi tribal probably because of your connections with Albanians which can easily be seen considering you are Montenegrin where many Albanians assimilate on daily bases as you know.

Look at Yfull where is clearly visible that you form group with Albanians and few serbicized Croatian vlaho Albanians:

https://i.imgur.com/Y7r3zfr.jpg



I know its not easy to be Albanian in Montenegro, but if i knew its such a problem for you to accept reality i think it was wiser not to tell you anything and let you live in illusion.

Dema out.

markod
01-04-19, 06:00
Well that is the usual old narrative for E-V13 from 10 years ago, bunch of "black farmers who got owned.." But the problem is he mentions them in Larissa area, you've got some V13 there but it seems mostly of recent Vlach extraction.
Are Pelasgians native to Bulgaria and then proceed to invade Greece in LBA/EIA? Does that make sense? I thought Pelasgians are native to Greece.. On Lemnos island (where real Pelasgians lived) you have a rare G2a clade found, I'm far more inclined to connect that to Pelasgians. Also Pelasgians were Tyrsenians, E-V13 ancestors in Neolithic were culturally a very different bunch in comparison to G2a Neolithic peoples I can tell you. They weren't farmers in any typical way to begin with.. And early Cetina people (likely or certainly V13) were highly Nomadic. it is the culture where L283 was found that was fond of settlements and for Cetina settlements were rare.

You are reading too much into it. We are only interested in the fact that Homer places an unidentified ethnos between Greeks and Thracians in the Thessalian plain and southern Thrace. This group is the only possible candidate for an expansion in the Bronze Age. Thracian is too young, and shares too much development with northern IE languages.


We already know that Iron Age Bulgaria was inhabited by at least two different populations: one autosomally Tuscan/Albanian asssociated with E-V13, the other autosomally like northern populations. I strongly believe that the latter is associated with the arrival of the Thracians.

hrvat22
01-04-19, 11:31
Slovenian genetics are the referent point for establishing original Slavic genetics that comes to the Balkans.
Slovenes have very little of E1b V13 and this percentage is growing in the area of the Bela Krajina or eastern Slovenia where Vlachs and Serbians coming. R1b in Slovenes is probably Germanic or Ostrogotic influence because they have more than Slavs in the Balkans.

Fact is that in Serbians exist and branches of E1b that Albanians have less and in the future we will see the origin of these branches, should be seen Slovenian E1b branches and this would give more information i.e. possible Slavic origins of some E1b branches.

As far as branche E-Z17107 is concerned according to YFull tree, for now older branch E-Y81971* is in Hungary and E-Y97307* younger branch is in Albania.
There are mising dozens of mutations in these branches to make things clearer, if we look present fact (YFull) there is some migration from Hungary to Albania, for me it would not be possible because nobody migrates to Roman Empire from Hungary to Albania. Archegenic data do not show presence of E1b V13 in Hungary or I have not seen them therefore I think that this E1b branches( E-Z17107 etc) are an Albanian Vlachs origin but as I said the future will tell or if Slovenian E1b branches emerge who could also say something.

Piro Ilir
01-04-19, 16:39
As far I can see from Croatia all these subclade have source on the border of Albania, Montenegro and Serbia(if we believe co-administrator of the FTDNA E-M35 project), subclade CTS5856(4700 year) which is probably ancestor of later Illyrian i.e Albanian mutations in that area.

We need to see which subclade exist in Greece and when they came there, if they came to Greece 4,000 years ago they probably can not be Illyric no Albanian, but if they come to Greece before 2000, 1500 or 500 years they are very likely Albanian-Illyrian origin in Greece.

I do not know Greece history and when first Greece name or tribe appears in that area ...in that age appearance of Greece names needs look for the original Greek haplotypes.

If turns out that E1b subclades are first haplotypes in Greek history it means that they in fact are Greeks origin and all branches behind them are Greeks origin.

It still does not change fact that original mutation of the Greeks is in the hills of Albania and that Greeks are with a good part of today Albanians cousins by the male line.


Everything will be known in the future.

https://postimg.org/image/4qxnhdqsb/

There's a chance that proto-Dorians were of Illyrian stock. Later adopting Greek language or assimilated into Hellenes.

Piro Ilir
01-04-19, 16:55
Greek/Illyrian and Thracian are indo-European languages. And so is modern Albanian. E-V13 is certainly not an Indo-European clade. So E-V13 is picked up in the Balkans by Indo-European peoples. It was present there for quite some time, but it is neither proto-Greek nor proto-Illyrian. Illyrians as well as Greeks could have absorbed E-V13 early on and they could have mixed with more E-V13 people later on as well.

Who is to know for sure the Albanian genetic make-up during the 10th century A.D.? Or even before that? We can only speculate. Who is to know that Albanian speakers didn't mix with E-V13 people some time in the Middle Ages?

All E-v13 in Albanians along with J2b2 and R1b Z2103, all came during bronze with the IE invasion. It is not native in Balkans and has nothing to do with the Neolithic farmers. The true dominant Y-dna of Neolithic Balkans was G2 and it was almost wiped out by IE horse riders. Albanians have solely few G2, roughly 1%.

Piro Ilir
01-04-19, 17:14
Paternal - mirdite (gheg)

Sent from my SM-G903F using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Sure, what else you were expecting!

Dema
01-04-19, 17:38
Slovenian genetics are the referent point for establishing original Slavic genetics that comes to the Balkans.
Slovenes have very little of E1b V13 and this percentage is growing in the area of the Bela Krajina or eastern Slovenia where Vlachs and Serbians coming. R1b in Slovenes is probably Germanic or Ostrogotic influence because they have more than Slavs in the Balkans.

Fact is that in Serbians exist and branches of E1b that Albanians have less and in the future we will see the origin of these branches, should be seen Slovenian E1b branches and this would give more information i.e. possible Slavic origins of some E1b branches.

As far as branche E-Z17107 is concerned according to YFull tree, for now older branch E-Y81971* is in Hungary and E-Y97307* younger branch is in Albania.
There are mising dozens of mutations in these branches to make things clearer, if we look present fact (YFull) there is some migration from Hungary to Albania, for me it would not be possible because nobody migrates to Roman Empire from Hungary to Albania. Archegenic data do not show presence of E1b V13 in Hungary or I have not seen them therefore I think that this E1b branches( E-Z17107 etc) are an Albanian Vlachs origin but as I said the future will tell or if Slovenian E1b branches emerge who could also say something.

Its true that Slovenian genetics are very important when trying to debunk 7 century Early Slav migration genes.
But we cant focus only on Slovenes. We have to compare all South Slavs in between them and see what haplogroups might be assimilated and what might be brought.
Also North and East Slavs.

So Slovenes as being far from Montenegro and Albania but also not interacting with so called Vlachs in Croatia and Bosnia, they obviously show significantly lower E-v13 percentage (up to 10x lol).
And no J2-M205 at all, which we also connect with Montenegrin native tribe.

On the other hand Slovenes have way higher I1 then their South Slavic neighbors with who they share same I2a+R1a clades and language, so just as we can assume that Serbs and Montenegrin Slavs were assimilating E-v13 and J2-M205, Slovenes were assimilating I1 subclades around Alps. Of course there is plenty of other various subclades but i focused on these main ones and these in that i have interest in exploring.

If Aspurg was Slovene or Northern Croat like Zagorec that has no connection with Montenegro, South Serbia or Croatian/Bosnian so called Vlachs, i would give him credit not to have connection with Albanians but rather being ancient Illyrian who pretty early on assimilated in South Slavic ethnos, but him having these subclade that is so closely connected with Albanians and also has brother clades among Albanians and in Montenegro he was recorded as Kuçi, pretty much tells that he is recent assimilate from Albanian times.

Hungarian clade is Irrelevant, also American clades and few others he was mentioning. As they are Balkan off-shot with low TMRCA, Albanians have higher TMRCA then Hungarians, way higher percentage and variations in E-v13 and their TMRCA goes into pred Hungarian period so it is definitively not connected with middle age arriving Hungarians lol. He is way closer to Albanians and even the Albanians and Hungarians in that clade have brother clades at Albanians among some of them are from famous Kelmendi tribe same as one of Croatian ministers Božidar Kalmeta lol.

When i talked my Croat friend with dalmatian origin into testing he got pretty interesting result, Ev13>Z16663>Z43289*

His relatives being only two Dalmatian Croats with TMRCA around 700 years, shows that this subclade is at least 700 years in Dalmatia. But then not having any relatives closer then few thousand years shows clearly a line that endured large bottleneck, with being very rare and poping up brings great variety. It shows that Balkan has great varieties in still undetected clades. Majority of clades that are spread are under effect of rapid expansion while plenty of others are lost in bottleneck. So for example i claim that this line is true ancient Illyrian assimilated into early Slavic ethnos. While Aspurg line looks like has closer ties with Albanians. Even tho it was Illyrian before it was also Albanian Montenegrin in recent time. His earlier separation dont mean anything, this kind of things happen in all clades they dont prove anything on their own. Albanians lost great deal of lines in various bottlenecks and assimilation so there is nothing to wonder about.

Slovens, Serbs, Croats, Bosnjaks also must have lines like these, just i only gave one example that i analysed before.

E-v13 had very rapid expansion and we cant look at line origin just going upwards in the genetic tree, we must stay focused on closer relatives and ignore noises like some non relevant off-shots.

hrvat22
01-04-19, 18:44
Yes, I forgot to say that there are also Illyrian assimilated branches of E1b(Slavic period) and that branches would be in some logic mostly in Croatia, while in Serbia and Montenegro considering that Albania is close this difference is harder to see bicouse they mixed. In Croatia it is easier to detect because we have E1b branches from Ottoman Vlachs period whose branches are younger and have ancestors somewhere in Albania, Montenegro etc, while the assimilated Croatian Illyrian do not have this direction of migration and therefore are different and recognizable. Normally this will know in the future because we do not know yet.

Dema
01-04-19, 18:50
There's a chance that proto-Dorians were of Illyrian stock. Later adopting Greek language or assimilated into Hellenes.


I certainty agree, Greeks were for long time trying to assimilate Illyrians, and only these that would assimilate would stop being called barbarians.
I will check into Stipcevic book later, he mentions few Greek tribes that are probably of Illyrian origin but i forgot since i read a book long ago.

markod
01-04-19, 18:52
I certainty agree, Greeks were for long time trying to assimilate Illyrians, and only these that would assimilate would stop being called barbarians.
I will check into Stipcevic book later, he mentions few Greek tribes that are probably of Illyrian origin but i forgot since i read a book long ago.

There's no evidence for this, come on.

Dema
01-04-19, 18:59
There's no evidence for this, come on.

there is lol, Aleksandar Stipcevic goes thru many ancient Greek writers and philosophers. Most of them were saying bad things about Illyrians but there is few, and one particular Ancient Greek who says very beautiful things about Illyrians. I forgot all the names but i can pull them out for you if you wish, this is translated ancient Greek texts. I remember that one Ancient Greek was saying for Dardanians that they would smell so much that they would wash their body only once in lifetime. This is very serious writer, historian, professor and bibliographer-librarian. He is absolute must read entry text for anyone who is interested in Illyrians and gives all the references to his claims to enable further study. Not to mention he was also professional bibliographer who thought students how to professionally write and also wrote books about writing, history of writing, and how to professionally and correctly write...

hrvat22
01-04-19, 19:02
There's a chance that proto-Dorians were of Illyrian stock. Later adopting Greek language or assimilated into Hellenes.

We have some data that Albanian hills are the source of subclade or branch CTS5856(4700 year) there is also archeogenetic E1b V13 from Dalmatia and probably from that direction E1b CTS5856 move to the Greece and they are probably assimilated there. I do not know Greek branches of E1b V13 so maybe they say something else.

Tutkun Arnaut
01-04-19, 19:25
I certainty agree, Greeks were for long time trying to assimilate Illyrians, and only these that would assimilate would stop being called barbarians.
I will check into Stipcevic book later, he mentions few Greek tribes that are probably of Illyrian origin but i forgot since i read a book long ago.

the Greeks had success with their assimilation techniques like theaters, sculpting and building with Macedonians and partially with Thracians. When the tried the same technique with Illyrians it did not work, since Illyrians functioned as tribes, they did not trust the foreigner, and started to harass the colonies of Greek cities making their life impossible. If Rome did not rise on time most of Italy would be Greece today.

Piro Ilir
01-04-19, 19:37
Albanian J2 is actually overwhelmingly J2b2-L283 (J-L283). On average it makes up 20-25% of Albanian Y-DNA. The same haplogroup was found in Bronze Age Dalmatia ca. 1550 BC.
Haplogroup R1b makes up 20-25% of Albanian Y-DNA as well. R1b-Z2103 was found in the Vucedol Culture ca. 2725 BC.
http://www.gjenetika.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/ancientDNAFinal-1-905x509.jpg

Source: The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/09/19/135616) (samples: I4331, I3499, I3948)

So all three major Albanian Y-DNA haplogroups in ancient DNA have been found in Western Balkans (Illyrian territory).

I agree with J2b2 and Z2103, but the E1b doesn't look as related with Illyrian/Albanian. Too old for it.
I know it is boring repeating it , but Albanians have only 1% G2.

The paper you posted crumble everything about IE genesis. It says that IE bronze age tribes from Anatolia, basically proto Hittites, were absent of EHG genetic inheritance. It moves the IE homeland elsewhere from the Caspian steppe. This is really crumbling all we already believed about our ancestors

Dema
01-04-19, 21:42
You guys dont understand that this ancient Balkan E-L618 is from Neolithic, only one portion of his sons, where only one portion of E-v13 is included - 4800 years TMRCA one. They later joined with Proto-IE and spread in Bronze Age, practically wiping out most Neolithic groups, including his forefather L618 and partially none IE E-v13s. This was all talked about few pages back.

Hence why L618* v13- does not exist anymore in living population except one survivor in Sardinia, also why E-v13 TMRCA was reduced from formed date 8100 years to 4800 years. Meaning they all died in Bronze Age expansion where this specific portion of E-v13 was also taking place. https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/

Hence why Paleolithic and Neolithic haplogorup I1 was reduced to exactly same TMRCA. Only these that survived BA expansion managed to survive and then expand again.

Piro Ilir join foleja.net Albanian forum if you have more questions like that and have respect to Flor since he is doing large volunteer job running Albanian project and everything so your beginner questions are last things he should worry about but im sure they will all be answered or at least together analysed. I dont see what haplogroup G has anything with this discussion and why are you mentioning it.

kuzmosi
01-04-19, 23:47
I do not understand how do people think the peoples of today are the same as 3000 years ago? Our common father, Z17107 was certainly not an Albanian because then there was no such ethnicity. Many sons live in the Balkans, (not only albanians), but they all came from only one son: Z38456. Yes, Z38456 also has swedish children. Eriksson and Engelin families. I have established contact with them, they are not immigrants, real swedes. Would they also be albanians? Aspurg is Y30991. He is farther from the albanian Z38456 bearers, than the swedes.

But we know a brother of Y30991. He was Y81971, my ancient father. I think our roots come from the Northeastern Carpathians as long as I can follow, and they were rusyns. But in a few weeks, I hope another BigY is finished. A turkish one, from Samsun, their ancestors moved to Turkey from the North Caucasus in the 1800s, because the expanding Russian Empire. I think he will be Y81971+. Based on STR, he is much closer to my branch members, than any other CTS9320 bearer. If so, I reconsider our origin.

And according to FtDNA, we know a third son of our Z17107 father. His sons live in the British Isles. Smith, Anderson (England) and Johnson (Ireland) families. We have been divorced since 2900 years. Would they also be albanians? I think no.

And there's a fourth 2900 years old son too. His surely known descendants: Schepak, (Krasnodar, Russia); and Fedushka (Lvov, Ukraina).

We are all distant brothers, from an early iron age man. I don't know who he was. Maybe Hallstatt celtic - according to Maciamo. Or cimmerian, possibly proto thracian/dacian. Or maybe proto-illyrian/pannonian. But it seems, that only one of his known sons has gone to the Balkans. Not in Roman Empire times, much more earlier.

But for the hungarian and the ethnicity question. I searched for all my 8 great-great-grandfathers direct paternal line male descendants, (and three other of my great-great-great grandfathers male descendants) and managed to identify their exact Y haplogroup. So from my 11 ancestors I knew, where it came from. I think, the results are interesting.
1.) E1b1b-V13-CTS9320-Y81971. family name: Küzmös, earliest known ancestor: Mihály born 1735 Penészlek, Szatmár county, religion: greek catholic, origin: unknown, maybe illyrian, thracian or celtic.
2.) R1b-U106-DF98-S22069. f.n: Dobi, e.k.a: János, b: 1758 Balkány, Szabolcs, county. r: reformed protestant, o: proto-germanic, Tumulus culture.
3.) R1b-U152-L2-Z49-S8172 f. n: Béres, e.k.a: Mihály, b: 1831 Nyírbéltek, Szabolcs county, r: greek catholic, o: proto-celtic, Hallstatt.
4.) I2a-L621-A1328 f.n: Tóth, e.k.a: György b: 1809 Nyírbéltek, Szabolcs county, greek catholic o: proto-slavic, rusin
5.) R1a-M458-YP415 f.n: Kalinyák, e.k.a: Ádám b: 1813 Felsőszvidnik, Sáros county (today Slovakia) greek catholic, o: western slavic, rusin, polish?
6.) R1a-L664-S2866 f.n: Simon, e.k.a: István, b: 1758 Rimaszombat, Gömör county (today: Slovakia) reformed protestant, o: western germanic
7.) I2a-L621-Y3118 f.n: Kiss, e.k.a: János b: 1783 Penészlek, Szatmár county, greek catholic, proto-slavic, rusin
8.) I1-L22-FGC14412 f.n: Szilágyi e.k.a: András b: 1795 Penészlek, Szatmár county, greek catholic, o: proto-germanic, scandinavian, varangian from Kiew Rus?
9.) R1a-CTS1211-Y33-YP1701 f.n: Petruska e.k.a: András b: 1781 Nyíradony Szabolcs county, roman catholic o: eastern slavic, slovakian?
10.) R1a-CTS1211-YP234* fn: Király, e.k.a: Sámuel b: 1690. Penészlek, Szatmár county, greek catholic, o: proto-slavic or indigenous eastern european from today Ukraina, Poland.
11.) Q-L53-L330-YP1695 f.n: Csehely, e.k.a: Mihály, b: 1805, Nyírlugos, Szabolcs county, greek catholic, o: according to Maciamo: Hunnic from Inner Asian steppes, but I think: alan

So it means, I haven't finno-ugric, or central asian turkish of these 11 ancestors. But I have
3 indigenous proto-european mesolithic hunter, 35.000 years in Carpathian Basin,(I1, I2).
1 neolithic farmer from Africa (later the Levant, 7500 years in Carpathian Basin, E1b1b);
6 Bronz Age invaders from the Pontic-Caspian steppe, Indo-europeans, 4200 years in Carpathian basin (R1a, R1b)
1 Hunnic/Alanic invaders from the Mongolian steppes, 1600 years in the Carpathian Basin? (Q)

From another point of view:
5 slavic
3 germanic
1 celtic
1 illyrian/thracian/dacian (or +1 celtic?)
1 hunnic/alan

So am I hungarian? Of course, absolutely yes, even if most of my ancestors were not.

And later back to Greece. I made autosomal tests from 4 different company for to know all of my 200-300 years old ancestors.
Family Tree DNA;
Nat.Geo. Genographic Project
MyHeritage
23andMe

The most detailed is the 23andMe. According this, I have six southern european connections:

Croatia: Zadar county (stronger)
Italy: Apulia (stronger); Veneto (weaker)
Greece: Peloponnese (stronger); Ionian Islands; East-macedonia and Thrace (weaker)

According this, I have greek roots, just I don't know about it.

Dema
02-04-19, 00:12
Kuzmosi you are definitively Hungarian, and haplogroups dont represent modern ethnicity but rather ancient or more distant origin.
I absolutely agree with you that you were certainly not Albanian but rather of Balkan origin. Connection is so far away that we cant pin point exact "Illyrian, Thracian, Ancient Greek, etc" origins but i believe with all the evidences that we have among E-v13 so far that you are most certainly of Balkan origin. And with being closely related with big masses of Albanians but also having brother clades among them, i think Greeko-Illyrian-Thracian origin would be reasonable to assume.

Furthermore, Americans, Hungarians, Russians, Swedes inside this of this sublclade most certainly are not of Albanian origin. Buit perhaps also of Balkan origin.
One of reasons why we are saying this to Aspurg is because he is Montenegrin/Serb, it is not accident that he is Montenegrin/Serb and he bear this haplogroup and not Slovene, North Croat or Bosnian Croat/Muslim.
Furthermore Aspurg shares major SNP Y30991 with Albanians while above mentioned grups, including you dont. We understand that E-v13 is very scattered and many various ethnicities fall in same group that dont have anything one with another. This makes E-v13 harder to explore and opens possibility for error.

Montenegrins are known for assimilation of Albanians and to be honest that is the only reason why he got this haplogroup. You guys are speculating too much with STRs, E-v13 had rapid expansion and its possible that you are mistaking with some groups but rather wait for SNP confirmation.

I guess that you fall in this Hungarian Z17107 group, as i see you guys have TMRCA only 550 years, but that does not indicate time of arrival. I would say that you are for sure closely connected with Bronze Age Balkans.
Z17107 has few brother clades at Albanians but looking generally at its brother clades Southern origin is more likely then North or East. You smaller clades inside of Z17107 are all probably Balkan off-shots.

As i said Balkans is epicenter of Bronze Age E-v13 dominated IE expansion but also strangely we find there its Neolithic ancestor.

Aspurg
02-04-19, 01:41
Enjoy!

https://i.ibb.co/87cgVy1/A24048-Z17107-tree.jpg

Aspurg
02-04-19, 02:01
You are reading too much into it. We are only interested in the fact that Homer places an unidentified ethnos between Greeks and Thracians in the Thessalian plain and southern Thrace. This group is the only possible candidate for an expansion in the Bronze Age. Thracian is too young, and shares too much development with northern IE languages.

Most E-V13 clades are "native" to Thrace, not Thessaly but the core Thrace proper (Balkan Mountains).. E-V13 practiced cremation since EBA. Another thing in common with all subsequent Thracian groups, and not common to most Illyrian (unless we speak of Urnfield later arrivals). E-V13 practiced nomadism since EBA. How does cremation fit with Pelasgians? It doesn't. How do Pelasgians fit with strong presence in Dacia? They don't.




We already know that Iron Age Bulgaria was inhabited by at least two different populations: one autosomally Tuscan/Albanian asssociated with E-V13, the other autosomally like northern populations. I strongly believe that the latter is associated with the arrival of the Thracians.

He was a Srubnaya migrant settled in an area, we know nothing of its archaeological whereabouts, and they were likely very small in numbers. That R-Z93 must have spoken an Iranic language.

I do not believe in late arrival of Thracians, per archaeological evidence I've seen thus far. And genetically already you see two clades of Y5587 in Bulgaria with TMRCA of 4400 ybp. Some other distant clades are found in Ossetians? How? Those that stayed in the Steppe were dominated and assimilated by Srubnaya and later Cimmerians, and ofc this might have easily caused the Satemization of Thracian.

Srubnaya/Cimmerians influenced Thracians strongly, no basis for a Baltic invasion.

E-V13 likely formed an autosomal mixture together with some other populations and that was more typical of later times. But I think more samples are needed for a better picture. If they would upload those Scythian samples that would be good.

Aspurg
02-04-19, 02:11
So what do we find there? Balkan E-BY4461 is completely irrelevant when it comes to the origin of E-Z17107 itself. And this irrelevance is only going to increase. If I can get that Tatar up and running as a basal Z38456 it's game over for any notion that this is not a fully fledged Steppe Nomad SNP in which case E-BY4461's might fit with some Illyrian Glasinac graves of foreign Nomadic Eastern origin..

Leka
02-04-19, 03:20
V13 has nothing to do with Steppe nomads. They obviously picked it up once they entered Europe, specifically the Balkans. That much is evident going by aDNA.

Aspurg
02-04-19, 03:46
V13 has nothing to do with Steppe nomads. They obviously picked it up once they entered Europe, specifically the Balkans. That much is evident going by aDNA.

What aDNA? You mean Scythian V13? (I know he looked more Balkan/Daco-Gaetic but still). To guarantee non-presence you need alot of samples. Obviously E-V13 is not so common there but it does occur and it is pretty diverse. Even among Tatars for example, one can find various clades..

Unless you mean E-V13 being "of the Steppe.." That's not the case but CTS1273 might have started the expansion in the vicinity of Carpathians and the Steppe or some clades at least, that could be a good explanation for some Eastern V13's, like the Ossetian E-CTS1273* etc. Also E-L540's confined to Central/N.Europe..

So no you are wrong, some E-V13 clades have certainly something to do with Cimmerians who were Steppe Nomads as well. Albeit not as proto-Cimmerians but still those that got picked up continued with that lifestyle.

But them being assimilated does not mean they aren't "of the people".. It's like saying I-YP3120 is not Slavic.. Yet you like to say it often that they are very Slavic (and they are)..

Leka
02-04-19, 04:13
What aDNA? You mean Scythian V13? (I know he looked more Balkan/Daco-Gaetic but still). To guarantee non-presence you need alot of samples. Obviously E-V13 is not so common there but it does occur and it is pretty diverse. Even among Tatars for example, one can find various clades..

Unless you mean E-V13 being "of the Steppe.." That's not the case but CTS1273 might have started the expansion in the vicinity of Carpathians and the Steppe or some clades at least, that could be a good explanation for some Eastern V13's, like the Ossetian E-CTS1273* etc. Also E-L540's confined to Central/N.Europe..

So no you are wrong, some E-V13 clades have certainly something to do with Cimmerians who were Steppe Nomads as well. Albeit not as proto-Cimmerians but still those that got picked up continued with that lifestyle.

But them being assimilated does not mean they aren't "of the people".. It's like saying I-YP3120 is not Slavic.. Yet you like to say it often that they are very Slavic (and they are)..

I mean in general, from all the sample we have from steppe not even one V13. But yes, the Scythian fella as well, and not a coincidence that he was pretty southern Balkan autosomally (similar to Greeks and Albanians). Not just him, but also the Visigoth sample from Spain who is PF36784+ resembled Balkan folks from what I have heard (Serbs, Albanians etc).

Tatars, Ossetians etc seem to be heterogeneous groups so I am not going to be taking them as evidence of anything. They seem to have heavy European influence. Especially Ossetians. The famous Y12000 under Z631 and Y5587 come to mind.

kuzmosi
02-04-19, 11:11
Dema!

Maybe you're right. But according to Maciamo and few western european origin CTS9320 members: CTS9320 family came from Northwest, Germany and Czech Republic with the Urnfield invaders. Earlier our ancestors were Tumulus culture bearers, and earlier Unetice culture. Z17107 father lived in the age of Hallstatt culture. He was a proto-celtic man, and some of his descendants went to the Balkan with the celts from the Pannonian Basin.

According to Aspurg and the eastern european CTS9320 members: CTS9320 father was direct male descendant of a gelonian or cucuteni-trypillian culture bearer. Lived in todays west Ukraina. And about 2800 years ago, when the scythians arrived from East, they were fleed to west. To the Carpathian Basin (Mezőcsát culture) and more west to the Alps (Hallstatt). Others cross the Danube to the Balkans (thracians and other balkanic tribe)

Acording to you and most of the balkanic CTS9320 members: CTS9320 father lived in somewhere the Balkans, and Z17107 father lived here too, and later their childrens scattered. From Ireland, across Sweden to Russia. Here I don't understand what kind of people's movement? In this time (2900 ybp) I know only the proto-celts, and the pre-scythian eastern european inhabitants (cimmerians/proto-thracians/dacians etc.)

It seems to depend on where Z17107 father lived, where his asked descendant live. From west: he was western. From east: he was eastern, From south: he was south. I live in the Middle. According this: lived he here?

Can you tell me someone from the Balkans, who bear Y81971? Or other Z17107+ but Z38456 - man? If yes: I'll be convinced. If not: we must wait further results.

But the most important. We are all brothers, wherever our father lived.

Aspurg!

Nice Phylogenetic tree, thank you for your work. Turkish BigY is booked on 19th April. I hope the picture will clearer.

Leka!

I think V13 has a strong connection with a large livestock herder steppe peoples. They called proto-indo-europeans. I think, somewhere in the Cucuteni-Trypillian farming towns was our V13 father's home. And later they entered the Balkan with the PIE peoples.

Aspar
02-04-19, 11:51
According to this site: https://phylogeographer.com/snp-lookup/
The migration path of SNP Z17107:

https://i.postimg.cc/MGTbxx2y/Z17107.png (https://postimg.cc/K16gr6Yz)

According the man who designed this program, he used the STR's markers of the available samples of a particular SNP group to estimate it's migration path.
It's obviously a complex mathematical algorithm used by the designer.

Nevertheless, I think he is on spot here, and as I said numerous times, the hot spot of many E-V13 subclades, seems to be the Alps, and the grasslands of Austria and Hungary, not Dacia, not Thracia nor Greece!

This connects most of the E-V13 subclades with the Tumulus and Urnfield cultures from where they spread to other parts of Europe.

I also believe that they were Nomads from very early on, and they used the Alps as a home where they were out of reach from any invaders and were using the grasslands of Austria and Hungary while herding.

I think that the occurrence of some subclades in some eastern people like the Tatars or Chuvash are the results of long time contacts of steppe people with the Northern Balkans and Hungary ever since the Scythians were roaming those parts all the way to the Medievals when Huns and other steppe people were also present.

Don't forget that some I2a clades like I- A2512 are also found in Chuvash and Russian people but also some Balkan R1b and E-V13 that confirm this hypothesis.

Trojet
02-04-19, 14:11
According to this site: https://phylogeographer.com/snp-lookup/
The migration path of SNP Z17107:
https://i.postimg.cc/MGTbxx2y/Z17107.png (https://postimg.cc/K16gr6Yz)
According the man who designed this program, he used the STR's markers of the available samples of a particular SNP group to estimate it's migration path.
It's obviously a complex mathematical algorithm used by the designer.

No, he just uses YFull samples and calculates the origin as the midway point of parallel clades. (In some haplogroups, like J-L283, he does use aDNA in addition). It's a good program, but I wouldn't take it seriously. There is some Portuguese samples in between E-Z5016 and E-CTS6377, hence the reason why the program has the E-Z5016 so far west. It obviously can't take into account for any migrations that have happened. For example in the recent Iberrian paper, E-V13 doesn't make an appearance there until CE era. It will probably be more realistic for young subclades with less than 2500 ybp TMRCA.

Kelmendasi
02-04-19, 19:51
Yh Phylogeographer isn't the most accurate of things, though it is pretty good in some cases. It is completely inaccurate when it comes to J1 for example. It places P58 somewhere in Saudi Arabia when in fact current data strongly suggests that the group arose somewhere in eastern Anatolia or northern Mesopotamia. It then places P58>Z2331 in Greece lol, this group clearly has origins in Chalcolithic northern Mesopotamia and is strongly associated with the Halaf-Ubaid cultures as well as the arrival of Iran_ChL admixture in the Levant, alongside J2b-M205. The Z2313 group comes from Z2331, this group is the one in which early Proto-Semitic speakers seem to have absorbed when it migrated to the Levant.

Dema
02-04-19, 20:03
Aspurg when i faced you with fact about Balkan E-v13 clades and that only perhaps 3% of them must have arrived with 7 century CE Early Slavs you told me that your clade goes into this 3 %.
Can you once more think about it and tell us do you connect your line with 7 century Early Slavs, Avars, Russians or actually with Paleo-Balkan populations like Ancient Greeks, Illyrians, Thracians and others from that time.

I will give all answers also to Kuzmosi, and comment that phylogenetic tree you made but i first want to clear some major stuff out so please can you explain what i asked you above.

Also i suggest you open your own thread about Z17107 and we can continue this conversation there. Since this thread is dedicated to E-v13 Greeks, the same ones you ignored and neglected in your calculations and phylogenetic tree, even tho they are Z17107 members.
You did the same with Italians lol. But you are holding here as i can see from some cherry-picked studies like Dragana Zgonjanin one where as i understood they were not Z17107 SNP tested.

Aspurg
02-04-19, 21:14
@ Dema
Zgonjanin guy from the Southern area is only 2/23 with me. My clade has so many off-modal values for V13 that no other clade has, even at only 17 STR's all of my cousins can be called 100 % A24048.


I know Sofia and Cluj cousins are tested as V13+ (that is what they have in most studies), they cannot possibly be anything else than members of my own branch.

Zgonjanin guys might be also ethnic Bulgarians from those border areas, they are not found yet among Serbs even from unpublished studies (where some more people are tested from there). (Anything other than Shop Serbs are very well tested and ofc Shop Serbs are often hesitant because of possible links with Bulgarians). My Pecenjevce cousin ofc dislikes Bulgarians yet closest to him is a Bulgarian.

The fact of the matter when I got 37 STR's I predicted publicly myself as Z17107 (not any other CTS9320), based upon the Cluj guy and I was right. My knowledge about E-V13 exceeds the combined knowledge about E-V13 of all participants in this thread (unless Rafc posted) and I have no desire to enter into polemics with those far below me in knowledge.

I can laid out the exact plan for my ancestry. For that there is proof. If those Russians share a single SNP with me I'll know exactly my ancestry for the past 2900 years, every century, every decade. And don't think those "Americans" have no ties to the East, they likely cluster with some people from the areas you aren't fond of (but I am).. So I'll want to try bring them as well into picture.

I have no time for discussion, but I have time and means to have more of my people tested and profiled.



@ Kuzmosi

Thank you. Hey I look forward to those results. He shares with you 485=16 so I expect him to join the ranks of Z17107.


Do not waste your time with this person. A today's quote from Kelmendi Albanian Rugovac who is knowledgeable about Albanian fis/clans about Dema:

"Obivous ignorance of that Arnautas from Zhegrova or where else he's from. The funniest of all is that this Arnautash (albanized Serb) determines who is Albanian or not, and in his house until 1750 they certainly didn't know a word of Albanian."


Me wasting time has resulted in a great new and informative Phylogenetic tree. I always turn any situation to my favor in the end..:smile:

Aspurg
02-04-19, 22:10
I mean in general, from all the sample we have from steppe not even one V13. But yes, the Scythian fella as well, and not a coincidence that he was pretty southern Balkan autosomally (similar to Greeks and Albanians). Not just him, but also the Visigoth sample from Spain who is PF36784+ resembled Balkan folks from what I have heard (Serbs, Albanians etc).

Well as I've said E-V13 formed likely a genetic "Balkan" mixture that included alot of EEF, and also CHG and some "Yamnaya" element..



Tatars, Ossetians etc seem to be heterogeneous groups so I am not going to be taking them as evidence of anything. They seem to have heavy European influence. Especially Ossetians. The famous Y12000 under Z631 and Y5587 come to mind.

Then don't take your group as evidence either..

That Y12000 likely was picked up by the Nomads and continued there. Y5587 on the other hand is not comparable. That is not "European influence", Ossetians are likely distantly related to Bulgarian clades. In fact that's what I was talking about, the spread of Thracian Z2103>Y5587 and V13>CTS1273 spectrum in East Carpathian region, contact with Cimmerians, or earlier Srubnaya people. That's where Ossetian E-CTS1273 comes in as well..
It is ludicrous not to consider their Y5587 and CTS1273* as anything other than Sarmatian in Antiquity per current evidence, and also quite likely Cimmerian etc.

Let's get to the point shall we, it's funny that you are trying to establish the non-existent E-V13 Albanian continuity (bar Dushmani) in Albania so they can be there since eternity (and ofc servants to R-2705's and J-L283's as I saw some of you like to imply elsewhere) is that what you have envisioned? Well, I'm afraid you're in for a rude awakening when it becomes apparent that a large chunk of Albanian E-V13's spoke Thracian in Antiquity. And your earlier comments trying to downplay diversity in Bulgarian areas are futile, as you have already more people deeper tested than Bulgarians and far more than Romanians.

If as you insinuate V13 is "native to Albania" then they are losers, and that's not in my interest, nor is it what the Genetic facts say.


E-V13 is Cetina, google Cetina, you will not make losers out of winners or viceversa. They left for the East, or NE. Their remnants are found through some of these PH1246.. And I know some important stuff nobody else knows due to which E-V13 = Cetina. (along few others.).

The simple point is that Indoeuropeasation of the Balkans from the onset was something where some more "Southern people" got involved .. And that's why they had more "Southern DNA".


@ markod, trying to establish some "Baltic Thracians" and Pelasgian E-V13 slaves. The only Eastern people with any influence in Thracian regions were Srubnaya and Cimmerians, they Satemized the Thracian language. ofc Thracians were more Southern as were Illyrians, but it's not a same thing as being close to modern Greeks or Albanians, as Albanians have small and N.Greeks have large recent Slavic influence.

Balto-Slavic invasion of Thrace marko.. provide hard archaeological evidence for that.. Srubnaya "Thracian" guy is an Iranian not Thracian and certainly not Balto-Slav, and if you are going to come forward with Iranian impact on Thracian then you may connect him with some "Thracians". So Srubnaya and Cimmerian Satemization of Thracian is something I want to hear more about..

Have you got a clue what "weapons" Balto-Slavs possessed in Antiquity, if they had anything better they would not have built Earth walls to protect themselves from the Scythians and Sarmatians. :laughing: And these people were invaders of Thrace 3000 ybp? :laughing::laughing:

markod
02-04-19, 22:50
To be clear, I was talking about the Iron Age Bulgarians in Sikora et al. (2014). One buried in a kurgan seems to be close to northern or central Europeans, the other individual resembles Tuscans and Albanians. I would associate the high status individual interred in the tumulus with the Thracians.

Aspurg
03-04-19, 00:38
To be clear, I was talking about the Iron Age Bulgarians in Sikora et al. (2014). One buried in a kurgan seems to be close to northern or central Europeans, the other individual resembles Tuscans and Albanians. I would associate the high status individual interred in the tumulus with the Thracians.

You refer to K8? Very bad quality sample, just checked it: dreadful 553 SNP's for K36.. Nothing can be concluded from that sample Pygmy 9 %, Oceanian 6 %, and I think from others from that study as well.

markod
03-04-19, 02:16
You refer to K8? Very bad quality sample, just checked it: dreadful 553 SNP's for K36.. Nothing can be concluded from that sample Pygmy 9 %, Oceanian 6 %, and I think from others from that study as well.

I mean one plots with southern Europeans and the other with northern Europeans in the PCA. Seems pretty obvious what's going on.

Dema
03-04-19, 03:01
Aspurg is looks like some underdeveloped kid with complexes. He is Jovan Deretic follower. I would advice everyone to take his words with reserve since he is obviously very manipulative and lying person. He is genetically classic Balkan guy, standard Serb/Montenegrin/Albanian, he is roleplaying and lying here with his Avar, Hunic, Tatar, Cuman and so on theories. He probably lives in some village in Montenegro or Serbia which are villages by their own if you dont live in capital city, but even then.. He is bored entire day at home and is obviously enjoying in making up all these various theories about his own origin only thanks to his Šiptar Y-DNA. Also he cant hide from me that he dislikes Albanians and is very unfair towards them. Not to say he never mentioned Illyrian possibility of his line once in life. All he did was neglecting and ignoring his Albanian relatives which absolutely dominate his clade, percentage and TMRCA wise..

Yesterday i got this message from one Eupedia Serb that i barely know and he said this:


He is fun of Jovan Deretić, unlike me.
I don't claim Serbian origin of most of Albanians as Deretić and some other Serbs. Kriči are different story...

Montenegrin guy Aspurg is Zor on Poreklo. He is claim Scythian and Turkic origin of his E-V13.
He has many weird theories. For example he claim Albanian origin of Hezegovinian clan Burmazi which are R1a-M458 and which were recorded in Herzegovina in 13th century.

After this message i managed to find his thread on Serbian forum Poreklo where he talks and tries to explain Z17170, but also his own origin.

I was not little surprised after what i read.. He did not mention Albanians, Greeks, Italians once in his thread. The only time when he mentioned Albanians is few time on first page when he was trying to connect Albanians to Iranians while comparing some words in language. Also he later says that Albanian cluster is irrelevant and that they have only 1600 years TMRCA.
The only time when he mention Albanians is when he says that their subclade and TMRCA are irrelevant and that they arrived to Balkans 1600 years ago from Carpathians...

From first to last page (4 pages) he mentions word Cuman around 200 times, from first to last page he is persistent on his Cuman origin.
This abnormally role-playing kid does not understand that he is not of Cuman ancestry. But rather Šiptar asimilant into Montenegrin/Serb ethnos.

After 4 pages of utter trash posting and mentioning word Cuman over 200 times, some senior Poreklo members like Simo tell him that he is making mistake when trying to find deep subclade of some samples he managed to find on some researches hard trying to prove his claims when these samples have only low number of STRs revealed and he cant even be sure the subclade they belong let alone distance one from another.

But Aspurg instead of listening senior members with better overall knowledge where Simo is absolutely right that with 14, 17, and 23 markers you cant know subclade of these samples, neither their genetic distance he is stubborn and rejects to listen.

Only then i realized why Aspurg says that he crushed my friend Simo who was claiming same things. Because neither is Simo my friend and neither i seen anything of this before. Also i didnt even know that you exist until few days ago. Me and some senior members on Poreklo telling you same things is just an accident since obviously its pretty clear to anyone with better knowledge that you are heavily mistaking in interpretation of your result so all of us rather told you sincere opinion rather then wanting to enter into a fight or discussion with you which already proved as hard since you dont take any critics and you only push your own theories while no one seems is agreeing with you, even on your home forum Poreklo they told you that you are childish, not serious and full of crap. I guess they are also not interested in Cumano Avar fairy tales but rather into your Šiptar Montenegrin/South Serbian truth.






Enjoy!

https://i.ibb.co/87cgVy1/A24048-Z17107-tree.jpg


I am enjoying, but not new findings but rather level of try hard that someone can pull out.
But i have to give you credit in paint/photoshop skills tho.

This phylogenetic tree is utter crap and manipulation, where you excluded Greek, Italian, Kosovo Albanian, Albanian Macedonian samples that are actually SNP tested and they are all closer to you then any of these Ukrainian, Russian, Hungarian, Uzbekistan, American and other clades you put there. Most of these samples you put there are invalid and should not even be on your fake Yfull tree because they are not SNP confirmed and your assumption based on 17 markers are ridiculous. Besides how for example clade that you named A24048b you put its formed date 1000 years and TMRCA 900 years? I dont see how would you know this on low STRs and no WGS tests? Also its exact position on phylogenetic tree? You have no proof that you are closer to anyone of all these people that you claim not a single proof that would confirm your Tatar-Avar-Cuman theories, but rather you fall in classic Balkan clade with majority of relatives at Albanians where Albanians also have highest TMRCA and brother clades.

The same thing that they already told you on Poreklo and the same thing that i already told you. All your relatives are Albanians, and even if this clade that you presented A24048 is correct it still shows you clear Balkan origin.

Also while entire time you were neglecting Albanian TMRCA and saying they are irrelevant i hope you understood by now that Albanians have highest TMRCA within Z17107, and not only that but also brother clades of Z17107 are found in Albania, Greece Italy and so on.

Your Cuman theory is funniest crap i heard in my life considering they were medieval Asian Turkic invaders while your haplogroup has multiple Balkan splits beyond Z17107 where also all of your closest relatives are from Balkan and Albania and none from all these places you were imagining so far.

You have Greeks, Albanians, Kosovar, Albanian Macedonia, Italians, Sweeds, Serbs, Montenegrin in your clade. These are your closest relatives. You are classic Balkan Montenegrin Šiptar, you have no connection with Russians, Americans, Uzbekies and anyone closer then your Balkan matches where Albanians are most numerous and have highest TMRCA. You pulled some highly speculative samples from some researches, but imagine if i would put all Albanian, Greek, Serb, Montenegrin and Italian samples inside,






Do not waste your time with this person. A today's quote from Kelmendi Albanian Rugovac who is knowledgeable about Albanian fis/clans about Dema:

"Obivous ignorance of that Arnautas from Zhegrova or where else he's from. The funniest of all is that this Arnautash (albanized Serb) determines who is Albanian or not, and in his house until 1750 they certainly didn't know a word of Albanian."


Me wasting time has resulted in a great new and informative Phylogenetic tree. I always turn any situation to my favor in the end..:smile:


Rugovac is little pathetic lying worm that has been banned from Albanian community because of continues lies about his origin and about Albanians generally on Serbian forum.
We all know that Rugovac is too stupid to understand genetics and even he knows that hence why he never mentions genetics. Rugovac is Serb that lives in Poland and lies about his Albanian origin.
Rugovac does not speak Albanian language, all his knowledge is based on 3 Serbian books he read. The only thing that Rugovac does is lies about Albanians on Serbian forum, says things that Albanins would never say and lies about himself being Albanian. He is like psychopathic person that should be banned on Serbian forum also but i guess that you guys are keeping him since he goes like little pet agreeing on everything everyone says and usually talking shit about Albanians and representing history how only Albanian hating Serb would do.

Second to that, Rugovac is lying about what is he saying here because even Urosevic did not mention any year but he said 19 century which is even later.
Rugovac is too stupid to comment anything about anything you posted in that thread but he only comments me, lies about me and tries to make me look bad.

Rugovac is butthurt because i called him out publicly on Eupedia long ago for his lies and pretending to be Albanian. No one cares what this old fart is saying on some Serbian forum since he obviously cant speak Albanian or English so that is only thing whats left to him.

And since he said that. I will have to admit that yes, in Rugovac case it was me first calling out his fake Albanian identity, and it was me first calling out discussion about him where everyone quickly agreed that he is Serb pretending to be Albanian.

So yes, in his case i definitively decided that he is not Albanian. But rather liar and psychopath living in Poland and lying probably about everything he says.

But you guys can enjoy thinking that he is real Albanian and thinking that you are actually communicating with Albanian. lol.



Also your autosomal is manipulation where only one calculator managed to show you some Huno Avar results because it was setup on 4 populations so it was streaching out. You have normal results and you are imagining this Cuman, Avar and other connection.

At first i thought that you are joking, but after reading your thread where you mention word Cuman over 200 times i realized that you are obsessed and serious.


Now continue to lie and photoshop samples into Yfull based on 17 STRs without a single deeper SNP. I dont care about your classic Montenegrin Šiptar results and you are not interesing to me, but i wont let you lie about one of major Albanian lines saying they are irrelevant and that they arrived here 1600 years ago because you are too stupid to understand that TMRCA does not represent time of arrival, besides as i told you Albanians have highest TMRCA within this group, unlike Hungarians, Americans and others.

Aspurg
03-04-19, 03:03
I mean one plots with southern Europeans and the other with northern Europeans in the PCA. Seems pretty obvious what's going on.

Nothing is going on with bad quality samples. I see that you've been quoting Montenegrin samples, RISE596 Iron Age Montenegro who's also "Northern" at 1700 SNP's. Even that is a bad quality sample, let alone 553 for this Thracian..

Aspurg
03-04-19, 03:19
........

Kun statues, Karcag, made by an E-A24048+
10864


I SPIT IN YOUR FACE ARNAUTAS DEMA. :smile:

Dema
03-04-19, 03:33
Kun statues, Karcag, made by E-A24048+
10864


I SPIT IN YOUR FACE ARNAUTAS DEMA. :smile:


Yes, Avars and Cumans in imagination, while you are still closer to Macedonian Albanians, Kosovo Albanian, Greeks, Italians and plenty of Albania Albanians while none of these exotic people are not connected to you.
So not only your clade A24048 is completley Balkan but also its brother clade is completely Albanian. and your entire main clade Z17107 has multiple Balkan Iron Age splits. Puro Illyrian, or if you rather wish Montenegrin Šiptar line.

You can insult me, i cant be mad at my fellow Albanian https://www.eupedia.com/forum/images/icons/icon28.gif

But still, if you manage to prove your fairy-tales ill pay you one portion of Avar meat and beer!! I think that is fair offer!

Aspurg
03-04-19, 04:34
Yesterday i got this message from one Eupedia Serb that i barely know and he said this:

After this message i managed to find his thread on Serbian forum Poreklo where he talks and tries to explain Z17170, but also his own origin.


Ah that must be Bacchus, he cares so much about R-M458, he hasn't even tested himself for Y-DNA (likely I2a). Well I hypothesized that about Burmaz Vlachs because one with a surname Burmazovic came out of basal M458, but that was more than 2 years ago, when I was still early in my STR analysis.. Later Herzegovina research did not find this clade except maybe one case, and I-PH908 came to be encountered in some areas associated with it. Though what I did say is that still Burmazi have likely Albanian connection, so I said they possibly died out while assimilated into the tribe some local Slavs. So no, I do not maintain for a long time any connection with Burmazi and R-M458.

About Simo, he supported full 100 % Serb origin of Burmazi, negating Albanian influence. So we clashed there. The first attested member of Burmazi was Burmaz (Burr+madh albanian combination) and his son was Gjon, known historian associated him with them, Simo refused. We also clashed when he claimed that PF7562 has an Anatolian point of expansion whereas I claimed it is proto-Luwian and out of Steppe onto the Balkans and then from the Balkans into the Anatolia which is supported by archaeological and linguistic evidence. And ofc we clashed several times over Simo not respecting the Bosniaks as people, or some elements from Bosnian history. My maternal ancestors were legit nobility in Bosnian Kingdom and I won't have any of that ever.

So Simo came to t r o l l me a bit and any half sane individual with any knowledge about E-V13 clades or general STR features for certain clades must conclude that this Hungarian from Karcag is 100 % related with me, as are all others listed. Generally for many V13 clades that is hard, but not for my own clade.

Bacchus is so fond of Pripyat, and I am less fond of them. Serbs have no R-Z93 clades. Ethnic Bulgarians have 5 different R-Z93 clades.

Yes I do claim Scythian (Cimmerian) origin for my clade, as everybody can see basal clades are found in the East and there is some STR evidence to suggest the link of my own clade with those.

Alternatively most distant members of my own particular clade are found Northwards in Dacia, and I do claim in any case very likely Dacian descent, and that some Free Dacians got mingled and assimilated by Nomads such as Bulgars, Avars, later Cumans and Pechenegs. Because for that exists evidence.

I do not care about opinion of poreklo people. I am not even a member of poreklo of my own choice. And I am an honorable individual, I do not claim anything without good reason because the only way to have a real joy in something is to have it confirmed through fully rational means.

If I had been of Albanian origin I would be proud of it, and I would claim it.

You have no honor. And I tell you as an admirer (and in many respects practitioner) of the Japanese bushido culture (and a speaker of the Japanese language) because you have offended my family and my honor (because you accused me of lying about my origins), and especially in the case you are definitely proven wrong on my Nomad origin, your dishonorable conduct on this topic (that started out as an attention seeking thing as you were jealous that J. Derite posted my analysis) shall be noted... I am open to apologies though..

Leka
03-04-19, 04:45
Well as I've said E-V13 formed likely a genetic "Balkan" mixture that included alot of EEF, and also CHG and some "Yamnaya" element..



Then don't take your group as evidence either..

That Y12000 likely was picked up by the Nomads and continued there. Y5587 on the other hand is not comparable. That is not "European influence", Ossetians are likely distantly related to Bulgarian clades. In fact that's what I was talking about, the spread of Thracian Z2103>Y5587 and V13>CTS1273 spectrum in East Carpathian region, contact with Cimmerians, or earlier Srubnaya people. That's where Ossetian E-CTS1273 comes in as well..
It is ludicrous not to consider their Y5587 and CTS1273* as anything other than Sarmatian in Antiquity per current evidence, and also quite likely Cimmerian etc.

Let's get to the point shall we, it's funny that you are trying to establish the non-existent E-V13 Albanian continuity (bar Dushmani) in Albania so they can be there since eternity (and ofc servants to R-2705's and J-L283's as I saw some of you like to imply elsewhere) is that what you have envisioned? Well, I'm afraid you're in for a rude awakening when it becomes apparent that a large chunk of Albanian E-V13's spoke Thracian in Antiquity. And your earlier comments trying to downplay diversity in Bulgarian areas are futile, as you have already more people deeper tested than Bulgarians and far more than Romanians.

If as you insinuate V13 is "native to Albania" then they are losers, and that's not in my interest, nor is it what the Genetic facts say.


E-V13 is Cetina, google Cetina, you will not make losers out of winners or viceversa. They left for the East, or NE. Their remnants are found through some of these PH1246.. And I know some important stuff nobody else knows due to which E-V13 = Cetina. (along few others.).

The simple point is that Indoeuropeasation of the Balkans from the onset was something where some more "Southern people" got involved .. And that's why they had more "Southern DNA".


@ markod, trying to establish some "Baltic Thracians" and Pelasgian E-V13 slaves. The only Eastern people with any influence in Thracian regions were Srubnaya and Cimmerians, they Satemized the Thracian language. ofc Thracians were more Southern as were Illyrians, but it's not a same thing as being close to modern Greeks or Albanians, as Albanians have small and N.Greeks have large recent Slavic influence.

Balto-Slavic invasion of Thrace marko.. provide hard archaeological evidence for that.. Srubnaya "Thracian" guy is an Iranian not Thracian and certainly not Balto-Slav, and if you are going to come forward with Iranian impact on Thracian then you may connect him with some "Thracians". So Srubnaya and Cimmerian Satemization of Thracian is something I want to hear more about..

Have you got a clue what "weapons" Balto-Slavs possessed in Antiquity, if they had anything better they would not have built Earth walls to protect themselves from the Scythians and Sarmatians. :laughing: And these people were invaders of Thrace 3000 ybp? :laughing::laughing:

Why should I not take our group as evidence? Out of around 450 samples in their project there are a whopping 5 V13! Same thing with the Tataristan project :laughing:. Ossetians are pred G2a and J2a population, keep that in mind.

Have you actually looked at their Y5586 cluster? They are very closely related to each other exactly like in Y12000 cluster. SNP wise, not sure where they would be because they don't seem to have done any deep testing, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are under Y14300 and perhaps even BY593+. How do you think Y12000 got there? Exactly like how the V13 and Y5586 samples got there, simple as that - and most certainly from the Balkans or central/eastern Europe.

What about Dushmani? Not sure where you're getting at.

I wasn't trying to down play the diversity there, but bringing up to light that Bulgaria as a region is diverse precisely because many peoples/cultures have clashed there. And my comment was precisely directed at your comment regarding PF7563*, Y146086 and Z5018* clusters. You were doing the same thing, if you haven't forgotten, with the few samples under Z2705 from Bulgaria/Romania in the past, getting tangled up with some low res samples from scientific studies.

Never did I say that V13 is Albanian and Albanian only. However, it's pretty obvious now that it did spread from the Balkans and not during the bronze age but Iron age and at more intense rate during the Roman period. Just because you have some supposed relatives based on few STRs doesn't necessarily mean that your ancestors came from those regions, they most certainly didn't based on ethnographic literature I have read.

Dema
03-04-19, 04:51
Its not Bachus and even if it was Bachus it is not important, it only reminded me to go and search for your thread in Poreklo : ) my dear Cuman : )
Ok ok, i let you think about it, if you manage to prove anything that is reasonable ill be happy to accept it but so far as results are standing you cant run away from your 900 BCE Balkan ancestry.

Aspurg
03-04-19, 05:27
Why should I not take our group as evidence? Out of around 450 samples in their project there are a whopping 5 V13! Same thing with the Tataristan project . Ossetians are pred G2a and J2a population, keep that in mind.

There are few more including those from YSEQ. But they have presence of this cluster (9/37 I think so it's been there for some time) which can be seen even in studies. Tatars have about 3.0 % of V13 (not so bad) with multiple clades, and one possible or even likely basal Z38456. Actually one Ossetian kit 312082, might even turn out as a Z17107 (he looks weird though). And you even get some E-V13 in Bashkirs.. So yes, one does find V13 almost anywhere..
Yes Ossetians are G2a but also their main cluster is very young and it brings their G2a % to a crazy level. This cluster is likely Alan in late Atniquity, again based on my STR projections. But solid ones..



Have you actually looked at their Y5586 cluster? They are very closely related to each other exactly like in Y12000 cluster. SNP wise, not sure where they would be because they don't seem to have done any deep testing, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are under Y14300 and perhaps even BY593+. How do you think Y12000 got there? Exactly like how the V13 and Y5586 samples got there, simple as that - and most certainly from the Balkans or central/eastern Europe.

Yes they are very closely related. I looked at their STR's, they are likely to cluster with Bulgarians, not Y14300. Y12000 - some celticized Illyrians, might have been picked up by Scythians or the likes or due to TMRCA might be a newer arrival..




What about Dushmani? Not sure where you're getting at.

He's a likely Cetina culture remnant in his local area.




I wasn't trying to down play the diversity there, but bringing up to light that Bulgaria as a region is diverse precisely because many peoples/cultures have clashed there. And my comment was precisely directed at your comment regarding PH7563*, Y146086 and Z5018* clusters. You were doing the same thing, if you haven't forgotten, with the few samples under Z2705 from Bulgaria/Romania in the past, getting tangled up with some low res samples from scientific studies.

And I was correct, wasn't I? To this day the Greek sample at YFull remains the earliest officially confirmed split below the Z2705 level.. And this cluster does have multiple members in Bulgaria. Of course recent haplotypes from Italy which look related to a Croatian might push the Z2705 firmly to the West definitely. I gave you the Croatian, what I'm after is the truth, not pre-determined ideas that need to be proven.

To me the diversity there is pointing towards some more profound influence of E-V13 in Thracian ethnogenesis.. Yet ofc I believe younger, more widespread Iron Age clades such as L241, CTS9320 etc. played a significant role in Illyrian ethnogenesis.




Never did I say that V13 is Albanian and Albanian only. However, it's pretty obvious now that it did spread from the Balkans and not during the bronze age but Iron age and at more intense rate during the Roman period.


Well the initial spread that caused multiple CTS1273* clades obviously was not during the Iron Age. And I'm not downplaying subsequent movements. And of course some clades like my own had some EIA boom.






Just because you have some supposed relatives based on few STRs doesn't necessarily mean that your ancestors came from those regions, they most certainly didn't based on ethnographic literature I have read.


If it was almost any other clade they might have been "supposed", i have some additional "supposed/likely" candidates, including a Kalmykian one.


But my STR profile of my own clade is very well determined, with 2 very slow (and 3 at 111 STR's) and 1 faster STR (whose value is certaily old for our clade).


So all of those guys on the tree are 100 % members of my clade. I am willing to bet, are you.. Make it 5 times more profit for you, you'd still lose, I know 100 % all of those listed are related to me and also the fact that all balkan members have dys385b=17 (slow STR) and all Western dudes dys385a=17 cannot be accident.. Plus other STR's check my tree.. And most have 23 STR's, and a Hungarian has 111..


Literature I respect but I am not of Kuci clade, and Lutovac in Bihor and Korita did not place my family as Kuci because of our old presence in the area, and influence as well centuries into the past.

If I thought my ancestry is Albanian I'd be proud of it in fact I studied some basic Albanian once.


I don't take this seriously in terms of modern ethnicities.. This is the 21st century and modern ethnicities are groomed to be phased out.. So really I have very little interest in that.. But I think tribal identities, and who knows maybe some tribal-ancient tribal identities might emerge.

And I'm looking for my ancestors who were like me, only those interest me.. And I do not care about my ancestors who were far my level, nor do I care in general for low performance people of any ancestry..

Hence you see, for me this is a competition, as is for others.. Why is Trojet so bent on proving L283 Steppe hypothesis, because it is considered "more prestigious" and why is Eurogenes so aggressive in opposing it? i think he always gets upset when some non-R gets involved there..

Aspurg
03-04-19, 06:01
Its not Bachus and even if it was Bachus it is not important, it only reminded me to go and search for your thread in Poreklo : ) my dear Cuman : )
Ok ok, i let you think about it, if you manage to prove anything that is reasonable ill be happy to accept it but so far as results are standing you cant run away from your 900 BCE Balkan ancestry.

hahaha as soon as you mention Burmaz and M458 and complaining about tying the R-M458 with Albanians, I knew it was likely him..

If I didn't have a cousin in Karcag, Cumania, or in Pecenjevce near Leskovac (named after Pechenegs), or if there wasn't monastery of Kumanica in my own native area and some other traces, I wouldn't think of connecting my clade to Cumans.. Plus Bulgarians did invade my native area in 13th century.. Also my clan has two separate traditions about "having lots of horses" and that was weird to me always..

To me this is something worth exploring, and doing something extra about it, but only with a solid base in evidence. I do need those samples up at YFull, and i do need alot more people tested. I need more people in Cumania tested. and I most definitely need some of those basal Z17107's at YFull to see what is exactly the relationship with them.

But I am somebody who would never ever claim descent without a basis, because I consider it dishonorable.

And also it is not really possible to tro** me though I can be very explosive, and seeing some of my SNP's no wonder..

Thanks for your wishes, I intend to obtain far more Genetic data than I have now.. And then we'll see what comes out of it.. I accept distant Balkan origin 100 %..

Dema
03-04-19, 06:48
hahaha as soon as you mention Burmaz and M458 and complaining about tying the R-M458 with Albanians, I knew it was likely him..

If I didn't have a cousin in Karcag, Cumania, or in Pecenjevce near Leskovac (named after Pechenegs), or if there wasn't monastery of Kumanica in my own native area and some other traces, I wouldn't think of connecting my clade to Cumans.. Plus Bulgarians did invade my native area in 13th century.. Also my clan has two separate traditions about "having lots of horses" and that was weird to me always..

To me this is something worth exploring, and doing something extra about it, but only with a solid base in evidence. I do need those samples up at YFull, and i do need alot more people tested. I need more people in Cumania tested. and I most definitely need some of those basal Z17107's at YFull to see what is exactly the relationship with them.

But I am somebody who would never ever claim descent without a basis, because I consider it dishonorable.

And also it is not really possible to tro** me though I can be very explosive, and seeing some of my SNP's no wonder..

Thanks for your wishes, I intend to obtain far more Genetic data than I have now.. And then we'll see what comes out of it.. I accept distant Balkan origin 100 %..

Bachus is good and smart kid but he also tends to have some conspiracy theories and pushes Northern origin.

Regarding horses i died laughing when i seen Simo answer to this : ) i can say that my ancestors also owned lots of horses, we were very rich before, owned plenty of horses, lands and even slaves. Even tho they were living only of selling land for 300 years now, when my father died i managed to get a piece of land there worth an apartment which of course i am not going to sell. But i think we are speaking here about more ancient past so horses story and kumanica name must be only coincidences since i really dont believe that you are connected with Cumans and neither genetic results are showing that.

I encourage you to find closer relatives but looks like only Balkan ones can for now been taken into consideration. If you find Cuman samples that will fall into your own group and be closer to you then Albanians Greeks and Italians ill be ready to accept your theory but i think chances for that are slim to none.
I seen in your thread, you were very surprised yourself that you fall into Y30991 group, therefore you see that its hard to predict subclade position on phylogenetic tree based on STRs, especially in this case on such a low number of STRs. I would not be surprised at all if Cumans fall in some subclade separated from you, and to be Y30991 negative, also have low TMRCA among them.

This subclade multiple Balkan branch-outs prove that it was here before Cuman or Turkic times. There is almost no mathematical chance that your subclade was brought here in 13 century by Bulgarians because you have Greek, Bulgarian, Italian, also Albanian relatives that are prior to that period and fit into Iron Age, or i would probably say Bronze Age but with lower TMRCA indicating wrongly Iron Age.

With all your closest relatives being Serbs, Montenegrins, Kosovo Albanian, and further ones Being Albanians, Greeks, Italians, i would have to go with Illyrian origin.

Now there is alwais a chance i am mistaking on my assumptions but this just my two cents, and i believe all facts are going towards this theory. But if you manage of course to find some other closer links, i will be happy to take it into consideration even completely accept it if it makes sense.

Leka
03-04-19, 07:00
Yeah, you're right about the Ossetians. One of them is Y5586+, so they should be somewhere between those Bulgarians. Didn't look at them that closely.

Leka
03-04-19, 07:42
And I was correct, wasn't I? To this day the Greek sample at YFull remains the earliest officially confirmed split below the Z2705 level.. And this cluster does have multiple members in Bulgaria. Of course recent haplotypes from Italy which look related to a Croatian might push the Z2705 firmly to the West definitely. I gave you the Croatian, what I'm after is the truth, not pre-determined ideas that need to be proven.

To me the diversity there is pointing towards some more profound influence of E-V13 in Thracian ethnogenesis.. Yet ofc I believe younger, more widespread Iron Age clades such as L241, CTS9320 etc. played a significant role in Illyrian ethnogenesis.


Well the initial spread that caused multiple CTS1273* clades obviously was not during the Iron Age. And I'm not downplaying subsequent movements. And of course some clades like my own had some EIA boom.

Not really, you were predicting them to be a lot further upstream. Hence also why you were pushing the eastern origin for the whole group. The Bessi theory is still popular over there among some of your buddies :grin:

The Greek fella along with those samples (including more than few Albanians sharing those mutations) are just Z2705* (x Y32147, Y33199), so nothing special. We actually got another one of those samples from Vlore today, Laberia region. We have more than dozen of 393=13 & 392=13 haplos that are in similar position, from across Albania (SNP confirmed).

CTS1273 was practically a single man around 2000 BC, survived like a 600 year bottleneck. Around that time is when almost all relevant sublcades that would later make an impact within Europe and beyond were born. However, that doesn't necessarily mean they started expanding right off the bat. Takes generations and even centuries for such an expansion to occur. So late Bronze Age and Iron age me thinks is when they started wondering around... I am also lately, in light of all the new evidence, thinking that it was probably Rome that really helped on the distribution we see today (by displacing Thracian, Illyrian, Macedonian and even perhaps Greek tribes).

Ernekar
03-04-19, 12:38
Hence you see, for me this is a competition, as is for others.. Why is Trojet so bent on proving L283 Steppe hypothesis, because it is considered "more prestigious" and why is Eurogenes so aggressive in opposing it? i think he always gets upset when some non-R gets involved there..
I think Trojet has said several times that there is also a chance J2b-L283 came from Italy.
But by looking at ancient DNA, i would agree with trojet that the most safe conclusion right now is that J2b-L283 came from the steppes during the bronze age.

Trust me, it is not because we perceive the steppe as more prestigious. To be honest, personally I would much rather have J2b-L283 be related to european neolithic cultures, or even better, palaeolithic european ones.

But with an ancient distribution with mesolithic/early-neolithic J2b in Iran, neolithic J2b south of the caucasus, bronze age J2b-L283 north of the caucasus, and then again bronze age J2b-L283 in croatia, it would only be wishful or biased to think that J2b-L283 came to europe earlier than the bronze age. Of course nothing can be ruled out yet, when we have such a thin aDNA foundation, but there are still scenarios that are more likely than others; bronze age expansion from the black sea/steppe being the most likely at this time.

Eurogenes is another matter. His motive is to create a narrative where only R1a men were responsible for PIE.
In his dreams, R1a corded ware IEanized the central european R1b-rich groups. Those IEanized R1b groups would then spread italo-celtic. The R1b's who got to Iberia before they were IEanized by R1a were speaking their original languages like basque and iberian.
So in this regard you are right, for eurogenes it is a competition where he at all cost must keep the genepool of proto-indo-europeans as R1a-dominated as possible, and as J2-free as possible. Now even R1b is being pushed out from his dreamy PIE-land, as he is arguing that basques also came from the steppe with IEans. Hmm, i wonder if its R1a or R1b steppe groups he will place proto-basque in? ;)
And he will also manipulate to get people to share his views. For example look how he tried to create confusion regarding J2b-L283 in his blog. It is a sign of desperation. Because he knows that the truth about steppe-mediated J2b-L283 is very likely soon to become fact, and it would destroy what he has been advocating for years; that the steppe languages could not have been influenced from the south, because there is no Y-dna coming into the steppe from the south. J2b-L283, some specific lineages of J2a, and even some E-V13(europe-->steppe) are the lineages which are going to prove that the steppe was indeed penetrated from both entrances, several times. It was not an impenetrable barrier as he thinks.

You should not follow the example of such a deceitful person as Eurogenes. Besides, anyone who has to much free time to create fake data and advocate lies on IE matters, is either working in a trol-factory for an intelligence company, or is a obsessed conspiracy nut living on wellfare checks.

And in the end, there i no need for any of us to "protect" E-V13, everyone knows it is one of the most succesful and strong haplogroups alive today. The balkans has been a target for migrations, invasion, plagues and expanding empires through all history and prehistory, so every lineage that has been strong enough to get a foothold and high frequency there is special. So kudos to R1b-Z2103, R1b-PF7563, E1b-V13, J2b-L283, J2b-M205, J2a-M410 and I2a-Din for being able to get where they are today.

Maleth
03-04-19, 12:50
This is not very logical in my opinion. How can it be physically possible for someone to travel from North Africa to Romania in that day and age? What would be the reason and why this path? Not credible in my opinion.....or maybe im missing something

https://i.postimg.cc/MGTbxx2y/Z17107.png (https://postimg.cc/K16gr6Yz)

Nik
03-04-19, 13:27
If I didn't have a cousin in Karcag, Cumania, or in Pecenjevce near Leskovac (named after Pechenegs), or if there wasn't monastery of Kumanica in my own native area and some other traces, I wouldn't think of connecting my clade to Cumans.. Plus Bulgarians did invade my native area in 13th century.. Also my clan has two separate traditions about "having lots of horses" and that was weird to me always..

When Hoti came first to its current location they found people who were very fond of horses and were even eating their meat (just like Sicilians, Sardinians, etc.). Also, the Albanian Stradioti of Venice were famous for almost living on horses eating very little themselves but taking better care of their horses and that they eventually rented them or sold them to rich Italian Condottieri due to their superior physical characteristics.

I'm not opposing your Cuman origin because you brought many instances of Cuman related origin but just to add my 2 cents I would like to also remind you that many of the Steppe tribes absorbed other ethnicities like Goths, Dacians, Carpi, Sarmatians, Thracians, Illyrians, etc. so as you said yourself your line could be one of the those Free Dacians due to your Balkan connection from 900 BCE.

Your supposed tribe would have absorbed so much Albanian-like admixture in Shop and even stronger one later in Montenegro, so are you sure your supposed Steppe looks come from your father and not your Bosniak mother. It is evident there's Turkish/Turkic admixture in some Albanian and Bosnian Ottoman families that could be spotted even nowadays and they're usually very old fashioned which makes it even more obvious. The Cherkez and Tatars of the Balkans are 1 example.

Trojet
03-04-19, 14:10
Why is Trojet so bent on proving L283 Steppe hypothesis, because it is considered "more prestigious" and why is Eurogenes so aggressive in opposing it? i think he always gets upset when some non-R gets involved there..
I think you might have misunderstood me on this one. I never tried to "prove" or push for the theory that J-L283 came from the "Steppe", just that it's one of the likelihoods based on the archeogenetic finds. In fact, if you read the J-M241 thread on that other forum, you can see that initially I was in favor of the Neolithic entrance of J-L283 into Balkans/Europe. However, unlike some of you, when we got the J-L283* from LBA Armenia (Allentoft et al 2015), I quickly realized that in all likelihood it came during the Bronze Age considering its TMRCA.
I think the jury is still out whether it came through a northern Black Sea route (Steppe) or a southern one (Caucasus > Anatolia/Mediterranean). What I took an issue with Mr. Eurogenes was his disinformation, where he was using the ancient J-M205 samples as an 'evidence' that J-L283 came from the Middle East/Levant, for which there is absolutely no evidence, and I'm glad I straightened him out :)

Dema
03-04-19, 18:41
This is true that Trojet was pushing Neolithic theory for long time of both E-v13 and J2-L283. Only after ancient Dalmatia J2-L283 analysis he changed his views and agreed with Steppe theory.
Also wrote this article - https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-analysis-of-i4331-j2b2a-l283-bronze-age-croatia-mathieson-et-al-2018/

Which is frankly very realistic and with all the evidences within this ancient sample with other ones also its hard to conclude something else.

Also its true that some people were for long time connecting migration paths and generally J2-L283 and J2-M205, including Maciamo.
But i hope they realized that these two must have had completely different migration paths.

However, as J2-M205 has Sidonian 1700 BCE ancient DNA and J2-L283 has 1600 BCE Dalmatian ancient DNA, they for sure had contact on Mediterranean sea long ago.
However, at that time J2-M205 being of probably Proto-Canaanite, Phoenician origin while J2-L283 with Illyrian, Greek and Thracian one spread with Proto-IE.

Furthermore Maciamo still makes mistake connecting J2-M205 with Iranians since its obvious that this group was spreading within Proto-Semitic>Canaanite groups.

I mean i cant blame him to be honest, group is very small and not many people know about it. But by now its clear to everyone that there is not one single Iranian on Yfull, and to be honest i never seen J2-M205 Iranian in my life, even tho i dont say that there are no J2-M205 Iranians, but even if they are there, they are of Semitic and not of Iranian ancestry and this group is for sure almost none existent and irrelevant among Iranians.

Piro Ilir
03-04-19, 19:09
I certainty agree, Greeks were for long time trying to assimilate Illyrians, and only these that would assimilate would stop being called barbarians.
I will check into Stipcevic book later, he mentions few Greek tribes that are probably of Illyrian origin but i forgot since i read a book long ago.

Unfortunately for most of the time it was the other way around. Were the Illyrians whom worked hard to be Hellenic. Mycenaean bronze age and later iron age Athenian civilization were really prestigious ones. Just look at the founding myth of the Dorians with the so called the return of Heracleidaes, and whether with the later founding myth of the Royal house of Macedon. Hence, all this Ev13 stuff it's too complicated. I still suggest for a bronze age spread with the Illyrians from northern Caspian along with J2b2 and Z2103.
Ev13 in Balkans is extremely higher today compared with G2a. During Old Europe farmer civilization G2a was clearly dominant.
The reason why we may find in iron age Tracian tombs the Ev13, it would be explained with the advance of Illyrian tribes. Tribali and Scordisci were originally Tracian and Celtic. Likewise the Dardani were probably of Tracian origin, later assimilated into Illyrian.
These are my assumptions from what I did read from archeology, DNA and history.

Piro Ilir
03-04-19, 19:24
the Greeks had success with their assimilation techniques like theaters, sculpting and building with Macedonians and partially with Thracians. When the tried the same technique with Illyrians it did not work, since Illyrians functioned as tribes, they did not trust the foreigner, and started to harass the colonies of Greek cities making their life impossible. If Rome did not rise on time most of Italy would be Greece today.

Well, the social structure of Spartans Epirots and Macedonians was a lot more tribalian rather than was the one in other Greeks.

Piro Ilir
03-04-19, 19:37
You guys dont understand that this ancient Balkan E-L618 is from Neolithic, only one portion of his sons, where only one portion of E-v13 is included - 4800 years TMRCA one. They later joined with Proto-IE and spread in Bronze Age, practically wiping out most Neolithic groups, including his forefather L618 and partially none IE E-v13s. This was all talked about few pages back.

Hence why L618* v13- does not exist anymore in living population except one survivor in Sardinia, also why E-v13 TMRCA was reduced from formed date 8100 years to 4800 years. Meaning they all died in Bronze Age expansion where this specific portion of E-v13 was also taking place. https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/

Hence why Paleolithic and Neolithic haplogorup I1 was reduced to exactly same TMRCA. Only these that survived BA expansion managed to survive and then expand again.

Piro Ilir join foleja.net Albanian forum if you have more questions like that and have respect to Flor since he is doing large volunteer job running Albanian project and everything so your beginner questions are last things he should worry about but im sure they will all be answered or at least together analysed. I dont see what haplogroup G has anything with this discussion and why are you mentioning it.

Haplogroup G2a was the dominant haplogroup in Vinca culture and surrounding cultures. Albanians have a lot of Ev13 , meanwhile have maximum 1% of G2a. Albanians or Illyrians brought the Ev13 with them from the Caspian steppe. They didn't absorbed it here in southeast Europe. If it was the case, then they would have a lot more G2a haplo

Dema
03-04-19, 19:52
Unfortunately for most of the time it was the other way around. Were the Illyrians whom worked hard to be Hellenic. Mycenaean bronze age and later iron age Athenian civilization were really prestigious ones. Just look at the founding myth of the Dorians with the so called the return of Heracleidaes, and whether with the later founding myth of the Royal house of Macedon.


This is nonsense, even tho i dont want to undervalue Ancient Greek civilization, it was Greeks for centuries trying to assimilate Illyrians.
Greeks have started with colonizing Illyrian territories pretty early on in history, around 630 BCE with founding Epidamnos that Romans later later renamed into Dyrrhachium.
Then later around 580 BCE they also establish their Apollonia colony, which remains you can see from Pojanë manastir in South Albania.
In 3th centrury BCE these colonies have lost their Hellenic cultural spirit. In fourth century BCE also they start with severe colonization of Illyrian lands, like isles Issu today Vis, and Pharos today Hvar in Croatia and so on.
Greeks and Illyrians share history of plenty of wars and hatred in between them, until they both dont get finally fully conquered by Romans.

But of course, in between all these wars, violence, colonization and so on, there is always trading and social interactions. Even friendship.

Piro Ilir
03-04-19, 19:59
V13 has nothing to do with Steppe nomads. They obviously picked it up once they entered Europe, specifically the Balkans. That much is evident going by aDNA.
If I'm not wrong, I remember that Ev13 was found in iron age Scythians in Caspian steppe. Ev13 might have crossed Caucasus along with J2b2 from the middle east during Neolithic, as cattle or goat herders. E1b1 north African tribes are recorded as nomadic goat herders

Kelmendasi
03-04-19, 20:08
If I'm not wrong, I remember that Ev13 was found in iron age Scythians in Caspian steppe. Ev13 might have crossed Caucasus along with J2b2 from the middle east during Neolithic, as cattle or goat herders. E1b1 north African tribes are recorded as nomadic goat herders
That Scythian sample was from Glinoe, Moldova. Autosomally it was very similar to Albanians and Greeks and not other western Scythian samples. This tells us that he was likely not an Iranic-speaking Scythian but rather just a native who lived in Moldova, possibly Dacian. I think it's unlikely that E-V13 crossed through the Caucasus. The most likely scenario is that certain clades, such as CTS5856, got absorbed by PIE speakers somewhere in central or eastern Europe and then dispersed with them.

Kelmendasi
03-04-19, 20:22
Haplogroup G2a was the dominant haplogroup in Vinca culture and surrounding cultures. Albanians have a lot of Ev13 , meanwhile have maximum 1% of G2a. Albanians or Illyrians brought the Ev13 with them from the Caspian steppe. They didn't absorbed it here in southeast Europe. If it was the case, then they would have a lot more G2a haplo
Unlikely that Illyric speakers or Proto-Albanian speakers are the reason for the spread of E-V13 into the Balkans. Only a few groups of V13 can be linked to PIE expansion, CTS5856 is the main one. However, CTS5856 seems to have an origin in SE Europe or somewhere nearby going by current data. So we can assume that it didn't necessarily expand from the Pontic-Caspian steppe but rather that it got absorbed somewhere close by and then dispersed. Many V13 groups in the Balkans certainly pre-date the Illyric formation and are the result of earlier migration. V13 itself though expanded from the Balkans originally.

It is also very likely that the Illyrians themselves just developed from local Balkan IE cultures that migrated during the Bronze Age, and so they weren't a separate group that migrated directly from the steppe. Same goes for Albanians, who likely stem from an Illyric speaking population.

The part about if E-V13 got absorbed in the Balkans then G2a would be higher is incorrect. Y-DNA frequencies can fluctuate pretty easily, this can be due to the lack of male offspring as well as war and disease. This is especially the case when it comes to the Bronze Age, which saw the expansion of a pretty war-like people that studies show carried diseases that local farmers weren't immune to. G2a declined all-over Europe after the Neolithic. And so a certain haplogroup can replace another pretty easily.

Dema
03-04-19, 20:23
. Albanians or Illyrians brought the Ev13 with them from the Caspian steppe. They didn't absorbed it here in southeast Europe. If it was the case, then they would have a lot more G2a haplo


Listen, stop spamming and quoting me. It was not Albanians neither Illyrians spread with proto-IE cultures but Indo-Europeans themselves.
Illyrians, Celts, Greeks, Dacians, Thracians are just groups that developed later out of these Indo-Europeans.
Indo-European Bronze Age invasion must have been from 2500 to 1500 BCE, later they must have started to form into these Paleo-European but also Paleo-Balkan populations you are mentioning.
G2a is Neolithic Caucasus migrant that probably picked up agriculture somewhere in Levant and spread it to Anatolia and rest of Neolithic Europe.

Piro Ilir
03-04-19, 20:50
Yes, Avars and Cumans in imagination, while you are still closer to Macedonian Albanians, Kosovo Albanian, Greeks, Italians and plenty of Albania Albanians while none of these exotic people are not connected to you.
So not only your clade A24048 is completley Balkan but also its brother clade is completely Albanian. and your entire main clade Z17107 has multiple Balkan Iron Age splits. Puro Illyrian, or if you rather wish Montenegrin Šiptar line.

You can insult me, i cant be mad at my fellow Albanian https://www.eupedia.com/forum/images/icons/icon28.gif

But still, if you manage to prove your fairy-tales ill pay you one portion of Avar meat and beer!! I think that is fair offer!

This guy remembers me the defensive attorneys at the court room, trying to spread nebulosity when they see that their cause is lost.
He mentioned earlier that Albanians descent from Bessi tribe, and soon after he claims Albanians descent from Carpi of Dacia.
Just to pinpoint; Romanians are mainly in origin , romanized Illyrians. They strongly reject this due to political reasons. We should admits this. It's their right after all.
A big amount of Illyrian population was settled along Danubian basin and in some towns of Dacia during the Roman empire, mostly after the edict of Caracalla, 212 ad. This was the beginning of Romanian language.

Dema
03-04-19, 21:11
This guy remembers me the defensive attorneys at the court room, trying to spread nebulosity when they see that their cause is lost.
He mentioned earlier that Albanians descent from Bessi tribe, and soon after he claims Albanians descent from Carpi of Dacia.
Just to pinpoint; Romanians are mainly in origin , romanized Illyrians. They strongly reject this due to political reasons. We should admits this. It's their right after all.
A big amount of Illyrian population was settled along Danubian basin and in some towns of Dacia during the Roman empire, mostly after the edict of Caracalla, 212 ad. This was the beginning of Romanian language.

Why are you continuing to quote me and post nonsense here? I would say nothing if your posts would be reasonable but you are way behind in knowledge and i suggest reading rather then posting is a good option.

But since you said it.. By linguists, Aromun/Vlach language split from Romanian in 10 century CE, they still can very well understand each other. Therefore we can assume that modern Romanian is from 10 century CE. Albanian is also heavy Latinized but resisted total Latinization when its core in fact remained of Paleo-Balkan Illyrian origin together with lots of words. But even in modern Albanian there is plenty of words with Latin, Slavic, Tukic, Germanic and so on origins.

Furthermore regarding genetics, Romanians are mix of mostly Paleo-Balkan populations but also with huge amount of direct Slavic lines. I believe that they viciously resisted Slavicization even in recent history.
But when observing their genetics, one great portion of their direct paternal lines is in fact Slavic in origin. So they are like mix of Balkan post Roman Latinized remains including Illyrians Thracians Dacians and Greeks with nice amount of later arriving Slavic Y-DNA lines. And of course plenty of smaller one.

Aspurg
03-04-19, 22:58
There is almost no mathematical chance that your subclade was brought here in 13 century by Bulgarians because you have Greek, Bulgarian, Italian, also Albanian relatives

April 3rd, 2019

The court of the Count of Vrhbosna, fortress Hodidid.
Until the restoration of the fortress Hodidid (sometimes erroneously called Hodidjed), the court is convened at another location.

The court is in session.

Case 1

Subject: Denial of genetic link between E5882, YF18711 and all other haplotypes posted under the E-24048 tree in the message #322 in the theme "E-V13 subclades in Greece" on the forum eupedia.


accuser: Aspurg, maternally paternal descendant of commanders of the fortress Hodidid, claimant of direct paternal descent from Greater Cumania, autonomous entity of the Kingdom of Hungary, modern day Hungary.


defendant: Dema and others


Hearing


Court expert Zor is to present the evidence before the court

Cousins under Z38456>BY4461 irrelevant as they are 2900 years away and they had their own separate migratory paths, independent of A24048.

YFiler STR's of the accuser and a Bulgarian
13 24 13 10 17-17 13 13 11 29 16 14 20 11 17 11 22
13 24 13 10 16-17 13 13 11 29 16 14 20 12 17 11 22


Comments:
15/17 GD,
sharing dys439=13 modal for V13 dys439=12. Commonality of dys439=13 in E-V13 98/625 15.68 %
sharing dys389b=16 modal for V13 dys389b=17. Commonality of dys389b=16 in E-V13 23/625 3.62 %
sharing dys438=11 (modal for V13 dys438=10. Commonality of dys438=11 in E-V13: 11/618 1.77 %
sharing dys385b=17 (shared by all Balkan similar haplotypes -> indication bottleneck effect)
not sharing GATAH4=12 (GATAH4=12 modal for Z17107>Y30991 indicating Bulgarian is certainly Y30991+, Bulgarian SNP confirmed V13+)




Cluj Ru281
14 24 13 10 16-18 13 13 11 29 18 14 20 12 18 11 22 , SNP confirmed V13+


Karcag E5882 at YFiler STR's
13 24 13 10 16-19 13 13 11 29 16 14 20 12 18 11 21


Additionally sharing with E5882 dys587=19 (E-V13 modal dys587=18), Commonality of dys587=19 in E-V13: 9/203 4.4 %


Determining chances of these haplotypes sharing these crucial 4 mutations randomly:
15.68 % x 3.62 % x 1.77 % x 4.43 % = 0.000445 %


Determining chances of said 4 mutations not being random: 99.999555 %.

Evident by their sharing dys385b=17, and determination that Northern hapotypes have the usual V13 value of 16-18 (one has an additional private mutation at dys385b) and their general closeness Balkan haplotypes form a bottleneck effect. Arrival to the Shop from the North is indicated.

Hearing completed.

Verdict:
It is thereby confirmed that the E5882, YF18711 and all other haplotypes posted in the message #322 in the theme "E-V13 subclades in Greece" are certainly related and form a clade sharing various SNP's at the E-24048 level.
The Balkan haplotypes also form a bottleneck, they arrived to the Shop from the North, Kunsag-Cluj area..


The court has determined that the defendant(s) are guilty as charged, and orders the defendant(s) to immediately accept the said Genetic Y-DNA relation that has been determined. It also orders them to accept that the migratory path for EA24048 is as follows: Bijelo Polje <- Shop area <- Karcag/Cluj.. The denial of this genetic link is thereby forbidden.


Effect: immediate


Right of Appeal: none

Case 1 closed.

http://i.imgur.com/G0cqqoI.png

Aspurg
03-04-19, 23:04
Not really, you were predicting them to be a lot further upstream. Hence also why you were pushing the eastern origin for the whole group. The Bessi theory is still popular over there among some of your buddies


The Greek fella along with those samples (including more than few Albanians sharing those mutations) are just Z2705* (x Y32147, Y33199), so nothing special. We actually got another one of those samples from Vlore today, Laberia region. We have more than dozen of 393=13 & 392=13 haplos that are in similar position, from across Albania (SNP confirmed).


Yes i excepted that but it turned out not to be true. I could aactually see that because as I collected 27 STR's from several studies for this haplotype it looked similar to the others so I said to the Serb dys392=12 guy, you separation was likely 1400 ybp..


But wait, hasn't Trojet identified an SNP which marks the transition into dys393=13? Greek has 12, so he still must be one step above..






Takes generations and even centuries for such an expansion to occur. So late Bronze Age and Iron age me thinks is when they started wondering around... I am also lately, in light of all the new evidence, thinking that it was probably Rome that really helped on the distribution we see today (by displacing Thracian, Illyrian, Macedonian and even perhaps Greek tribes).


I agree that Romans played a part, including their Legions etc. So generally I would attribute largely Western V13 to that, Eastern though are something else (no Rome there), part was Greek colonies but the other part also Thraco-Cimmerians.




Eurogenes is another matter. His motive is to create a narrative where only R1a men were responsible for PIE.
In his dreams, R1a corded ware IEanized the central european R1b-rich groups. Those IEanized R1b groups would then spread italo-celtic. The R1b's who got to Iberia before they were IEanized by R1a were speaking their original languages like basque and iberian.
So in this regard you are right, for eurogenes it is a competition where he at all cost must keep the genepool of proto-indo-europeans as R1a-dominated as possible, and as J2-free as possible. Now even R1b is being pushed out from his dreamy PIE-land, as he is arguing that basques also came from the steppe with IEans. Hmm, i wonder if its R1a or R1b steppe groups he will place proto-basque in? ;)


I had no idea he denies the IE-ness of R1b.:) Interesting..




And he will also manipulate to get people to share his views. For example look how he tried to create confusion regarding J2b-L283 in his blog. It is a sign of desperation. Because he knows that the truth about steppe-mediated J2b-L283 is very likely soon to become fact, and it would destroy what he has been advocating for years; that the steppe languages could not have been influenced from the south, because there is no Y-dna coming into the steppe from the south. J2b-L283, some specific lineages of J2a, and even some E-V13(europe-->steppe) are the lineages which are going to prove that the steppe was indeed penetrated from both entrances, several times. It was not an impenetrable barrier as he thinks.


You should not follow the example of such a deceitful person as Eurogenes. Besides, anyone who has to much free time to create fake data and advocate lies on IE matters, is either working in a trol-factory for an intelligence company, or is a obsessed conspiracy nut living on wellfare checks.



Well I am opposed to emotional "haplogroupist" arguments. Him connecting L283 with M205 was totally inappropriate.
Still he's knowledgeable in these matters, and has contributed in many ways.



And in the end, there i no need for any of us to "protect" E-V13, everyone knows it is one of the most succesful and strong haplogroups alive today. The balkans has been a target for migrations, invasion, plagues and expanding empires through all history and prehistory, so every lineage that has been strong enough to get a foothold and high frequency there is special. So kudos to R1b-Z2103, R1b-PF7563, E1b-V13, J2b-L283, J2b-M205, J2a-M410 and I2a-Din for being able to get where they are today.

I agree.

Piro Ilir
03-04-19, 23:23
This is nonsense, even tho i dont want to undervalue Ancient Greek civilization, it was Greeks for centuries trying to assimilate Illyrians.
Greeks have started with colonizing Illyrian territories pretty early on in history, around 630 BCE with founding Epidamnos that Romans later later renamed into Dyrrhachium.
Then later around 580 BCE they also establish their Apollonia colony, which remains you can see from Pojanë manastir in South Albania.
In 3th centrury BCE these colonies have lost their Hellenic cultural spirit. In fourth century BCE also they start with severe colonization of Illyrian lands, like isles Issu today Vis, and Pharos today Hvar in Croatia and so on.
Greeks and Illyrians share history of plenty of wars and hatred in between them, until they both dont get finally fully conquered by Romans.

But of course, in between all these wars, violence, colonization and so on, there is always trading and social interactions. Even friendship.

I don't want to go deeper with this because it's a bit off topic. Anyway, it's worth mentioning that Illyrians never did and never even tried to have their own writing , neither some distinct culture. Their coins were written in Hellenic. They adopted in their fortified settlements the Hellenic way of construction. The administration of kingdoms was akin to their Hellenic contemporaries.
This is what Albanians are even today. Seems that time has stopped for them.

Aspurg
03-04-19, 23:40
I think you might have misunderstood me on this one. I never tried to "prove" or push for the theory that J-L283 came from the "Steppe", just that it's one of the likelihoods based on the archeogenetic finds. In fact, if you read the J-M241 thread on that other forum, you can see that initially I was in favor of the Neolithic entrance of J-L283 into Balkans/Europe. However, unlike some of you, when we got the J-L283* from LBA Armenia (Allentoft et al 2015), I quickly realized that in all likelihood it came during the Bronze Age considering its TMRCA.
I think the jury is still out whether it came through a northern Black Sea route (Steppe) or a southern one (Caucasus > Anatolia/Mediterranean). What I took an issue with Mr. Eurogenes was his disinformation, where he was using the ancient J-M205 samples as an 'evidence' that J-L283 came from the Middle East/Levant, for which there is absolutely no evidence, and I'm glad I straightened him out :)


Yes it was very inappropriate of him to bring the J-M205 into this. About the Armenian, I paid no attention to him a year ago, when someone asked me about Armenian at poreklo, I thought he was refering to Georgian J-L283 of Armenian descend that I know of.


I think ofc Steppe expansion is fully at the table and functional atm, unless someone can prove some Kura-Araxes expansion to Sardinia first. But there is no J-L283 in pre-Nuragic Sardinia, however considering that is is one of few new hg's found in Nuragic Sardinia Sardinian J-L283 must be considered as quite likely proto-Nuragic (whatever that may mean, and I'm not sure atm) that is they were in significant way responsible for the advent of Nuragic culture.


About your earlier comment about R-U152 and Urnfield, that is debatable and yes likely this impact was not as great. Some of those exist in Albania, and that one found seems Illyrian indeed:
U152>L2>FGC13617 of Serb admin, but also found in one Ghegh and Tosk in Arberesh study (also a Greek from Kerkyra). A completely isolated clade, must be Urnfield Illyrian.The Greek could be Souliote.


U152>L2>Y4353 clade found in a Vlach Ugarak clan of East Herzegovina. My maternal family by tradition and documentary facts, descends of Hodidjed commanders from 15th century. There is a documentary link between them and chief local nobility of Vrhbosna which was Bogčin Ugarčić so it's very likely I'm (maternally) of that clade. Around 1391 this family was given the land in Vrhbosna by the King, and most authors say they came from Travunia. Also by family tradition there is Herzegovina variant of origin (as is Bosnian). Also likely these are separate from the Vlach clan because there were some non-Vlach Ugarčić mentioned, but everywhere where Ugar/Ugarak traces were found thus far it's always this clade, so I have little doubt that I can have it confirmed.
This family of Ugarčić were first known muslims from Bosnia, because the Ottomans captured Sarajevo area in 1448, 15 years before they ended the Bosnian Kingdom.

This clade should be Illyrian, possibly Ardieian, it can only be connected with Urnfield Illyrians. Yet distant haplotypes of Y4353 exist also in Bulgaria, Romania but also in Greece! In fact when they found the higher % of R1b in Crete, by the STR's I saw it was this clade! And some connected this to Dorians. Also it exist in Greeks from Asia minor or Cyprus.


Few connected Ugarak with Hungary/Transylvania (Ugar can be viewed Hungarian too) but these in Bulgaria and Romania look distant to Herzegovina.. So i'm not 100 % sure but this clade could be also the real Illyrian-Dorian connection (the only other is Celtic). Btw one other Vlach clan of this clade is "Zotovic" and all connected their "Zot" to Albanian word, albeit this clade does not exist in Albanians so it's very weird.. Was "Zot" an Illyrian word? That's very hard to prove.

Nik
04-04-19, 00:01
Btw one other Vlach clan of this clade is "Zotovic" and all connected their "Zot" to Albanian word, albeit this clade does not exist in Albanians so it's very weird.. Was "Zot" an Illyrian word? That's very hard to prove.
Very likely to be Illyrian. Note the Greek and Latin versions of Zeus, Deus, Dias, Dios, as well as the fact that in the word Zot the 'o' is a long one, and very often what's written as 'o' is actually pronounced as a nasal 'eu' or 'ue'.

A funny example of this is a viral video where a Gheg cameraman says "mos prek me dor" but obviously everyone hears "mos prek me deeeurr" meaning "don't touch me" (dora means hand).

Another one is the dialectal version of the name Anton/Andon being transformed into 'Ndue/Nue/Nua/Noi/Noja.

Ernekar
04-04-19, 00:11
edt........

Dema
04-04-19, 01:02
April 3rd, 2019

The court of the Count of Vrhbosna, fortress Hodidid.
Until the restoration of the fortress Hodidid (sometimes erroneously called Hodidjed), the court is convened at another location.

The court is in session.

Case 1

Subject: Denial of genetic link between E5882, YF18711 and all other haplotypes posted under the E-24048 tree in the message #322 in the theme "E-V13 subclades in Greece" on the forum eupedia.


accuser: Aspurg, maternally paternal descendant of commanders of the fortress Hodidid, claimant of direct paternal descent from Greater Cumania, autonomous entity of the Kingdom of Hungary, modern day Hungary.


defendant: Dema and others


Hearing


Court expert Zor is to present the evidence before the court

Cousins under Z38456>BY4461 irrelevant as they are 2900 years away and they had their own separate migratory paths, independent of A24048.

YFiler STR's of the accuser and a Bulgarian
13 24 13 10 17-17 13 13 11 29 16 14 20 11 17 11 22
13 24 13 10 16-17 13 13 11 29 16 14 20 12 17 11 22


Comments:
15/17 GD,
sharing dys439=13 modal for V13 dys439=12. Commonality of dys439=13 in E-V13 98/625 15.68 %
sharing dys389b=16 modal for V13 dys389b=17. Commonality of dys389b=16 in E-V13 23/625 3.62 %
sharing dys438=11 (modal for V13 dys438=10. Commonality of dys438=11 in E-V13: 11/618 1.77 %
sharing dys385b=17 (shared by all Balkan similar haplotypes -> indication bottleneck effect)
not sharing GATAH4=12 (GATAH4=12 modal for Z17107>Y30991 indicating Bulgarian is certainly Y30991+, Bulgarian SNP confirmed V13+)




Cluj Ru281
14 24 13 10 16-18 13 13 11 29 18 14 20 12 18 11 22 , SNP confirmed V13+


Karcag E5882 at YFiler STR's
13 24 13 10 16-19 13 13 11 29 16 14 20 12 18 11 21


Additionally sharing with E5882 dys587=19 (E-V13 modal dys587=18), Commonality of dys587=19 in E-V13: 9/203 4.4 %


Determining chances of these haplotypes sharing these crucial 4 mutations randomly:
15.68 % x 3.62 % x 1.77 % x 4.43 % = 0.000445 %


Determining chances of said 4 mutations not being random: 99.999555 %.

Evident by their sharing dys385b=17, and determination that Northern hapotypes have the usual V13 value of 16-18 (one has an additional private mutation at dys385b) and their general closeness Balkan haplotypes form a bottleneck effect. Arrival to the Shop from the North is indicated.

Hearing completed.

Verdict:
It is thereby confirmed that the E5882, YF18711 and all other haplotypes posted in the message #322 in the theme "E-V13 subclades in Greece" are certainly related and form a clade sharing various SNP's at the E-24048 level.
The Balkan haplotypes also form a bottleneck, they arrived to the Shop from the North, Kunsag-Cluj area..


The court has determined that the defendant(s) are guilty as charged, and orders the defendant(s) to immediately accept the said Genetic Y-DNA relation that has been determined. It also orders them to accept that the migratory path for EA24048 is as follows: Bijelo Polje <- Shop area <- Karcag/Cluj.. The denial of this genetic link is thereby forbidden.


Effect: immediate


Right of Appeal: none

Case 1 closed.

http://i.imgur.com/G0cqqoI.png


You are still holding for some 17 STRs hypothetical matches... Its funny to me you are holding for hypothetical 17 STRs matches even after doing bigY-700 test + Yfull upload.

Bulgarian match proves nothing since you have no idea when you split from him and second to that they are Balkan nation so nothing out of ordinary.

Cluj and Karcag matches are ridiculous to even take into consideration. I mean you can tomorrow find in China similar 17 STRs haplotype, will you then claim they originate in China?

These matches are highly speculative and i see that even they in between them have some multicopy STR differences therefore all assumptions are just meaningless speculations on 17 markers that we generally know in haplogroups like E-v13 should be avoided.

You have still 0 proof that you are closer to Cluj or Karcag samples then any of your Serb, Montenegrin, Albanian, Italian, Sweedish, Greek, and so on samples.

Trojet
04-04-19, 01:12
April 3rd, 2019
The court of the Count of Vrhbosna, fortress Hodidid.
Until the restoration of the fortress Hodidid (sometimes erroneously called Hodidjed), the court is convened at another location.
The court is in session.
Case 1
Subject: Denial of genetic link between E5882, YF18711 and all other haplotypes posted under the E-24048 tree in the message #322 in the theme "E-V13 subclades in Greece" on the forum eupedia.
accuser: Aspurg, maternally paternal descendant of commanders of the fortress Hodidid, claimant of direct paternal descent from Greater Cumania, autonomous entity of the Kingdom of Hungary, modern day Hungary.
defendant: Dema and others
Hearing
Court expert Zor is to present the evidence before the court
Cousins under Z38456>BY4461 irrelevant as they are 2900 years away and they had their own separate migratory paths, independent of A24048.
YFiler STR's of the accuser and a Bulgarian
13 24 13 10 17-17 13 13 11 29 16 14 20 11 17 11 22
13 24 13 10 16-17 13 13 11 29 16 14 20 12 17 11 22
Comments:
15/17 GD,
sharing dys439=13 modal for V13 dys439=12. Commonality of dys439=13 in E-V13 98/625 15.68 %
sharing dys389b=16 modal for V13 dys389b=17. Commonality of dys389b=16 in E-V13 23/625 3.62 %
sharing dys438=11 (modal for V13 dys438=10. Commonality of dys438=11 in E-V13: 11/618 1.77 %
sharing dys385b=17 (shared by all Balkan similar haplotypes -> indication bottleneck effect)
not sharing GATAH4=12 (GATAH4=12 modal for Z17107>Y30991 indicating Bulgarian is certainly Y30991+, Bulgarian SNP confirmed V13+)
Cluj Ru281
14 24 13 10 16-18 13 13 11 29 18 14 20 12 18 11 22 , SNP confirmed V13+
Karcag E5882 at YFiler STR's
13 24 13 10 16-19 13 13 11 29 16 14 20 12 18 11 21
Additionally sharing with E5882 dys587=19 (E-V13 modal dys587=18), Commonality of dys587=19 in E-V13: 9/203 4.4 %
Determining chances of these haplotypes sharing these crucial 4 mutations randomly:
15.68 % x 3.62 % x 1.77 % x 4.43 % = 0.000445 %
Determining chances of said 4 mutations not being random: 99.999555 %.
Evident by their sharing dys385b=17, and determination that Northern hapotypes have the usual V13 value of 16-18 (one has an additional private mutation at dys385b) and their general closeness Balkan haplotypes form a bottleneck effect. Arrival to the Shop from the North is indicated.
Hearing completed.
Verdict:
It is thereby confirmed that the E5882, YF18711 and all other haplotypes posted in the message #322 in the theme "E-V13 subclades in Greece" are certainly related and form a clade sharing various SNP's at the E-24048 level.
The Balkan haplotypes also form a bottleneck, they arrived to the Shop from the North, Kunsag-Cluj area..
The court has determined that the defendant(s) are guilty as charged, and orders the defendant(s) to immediately accept the said Genetic Y-DNA relation that has been determined. It also orders them to accept that the migratory path for EA24048 is as follows: Bijelo Polje <- Shop area <- Karcag/Cluj.. The denial of this genetic link is thereby forbidden.
Effect: immediate
Right of Appeal: none
Case 1 closed.
http://i.imgur.com/G0cqqoI.png

We just got our very first Albanian from southern Albania with some of those off modals ;), including DYS389II=29, DYS458=16, DYS447=25, GATAH4=12. This haplotype is consistent with E-CTS9320. As you know, the GATAH4=12 is a good predictor for Z17107+, and since he doesn't have the DYS458=17 or greater, odds are he is some Z17107+ and BY4461- ;)

Aspurg
04-04-19, 01:37
We just got our very first Albanian from southern Albania with many of the same off modals ;), including DYS389II=29, DYS447=25, GATAH4=12. As you know, this last one is a very good predictor for Z17107+, and since he doesn't have the DYS458=17 or greater, odds are he is Z17107+ and BY4461-

Interesting, any specific area? 447=25 is modal for CTS9320, I've noticed some haplotypes with dys390=25, dys389II=29 but they had GATAH4=11 mostly. Still regarding GATAH4=12, there is proof that for my clade it has gone up and down few times, because a likely related haplotype that is little more distant has 11 there. Still for my clade anybody who doesn't have dys438=11 + etc. cannot be close to me. Karcag guy is certainly related to me and 1800 ybp with him might be easily optimistic..

In any case you are now becoming "very" tested, which is a good thing. But let's see what happens with more Romanian or Bulgarian deeper tests.. Because it can not be tolerated that Daco-Thracians are pronounced as "Illyrians" as some might try to do.. Those were not same and it's not right to make any mistakes there just for some necessity to have all people descending of "Illyrians"..

@ Dema seriously are you mentally impaired? For how many times do I have to say
Karcag E5882 = 111 STR's. not 17, and most have 23.

Trojet
04-04-19, 01:51
Interesting, any specific area? 447=25 is modal for CTS9320, I've noticed some haplotypes with dys390=25, dys389II=29 but they had GATAH4=11 mostly. Still regarding GATAH4=12, there is proof that for my clade it has gone up and down few times, because a likely related haplotype that is little more distant has 11 there. Still for my clade anybody who doesn't have dys438=11 + etc. cannot be close to me. Karcag guy is certainly related to me and 1800 ybp with him might be easily optimistic..
In any case you are now becoming "very" tested, which is a good thing. But let's see what happens with more Romanian or Bulgarian deeper tests.. Because it can not be tolerated that Daco-Thracians are pronounced as "Illyrians" as some might try to do.. Those were not same and it's not right to make any mistakes there just for some necessity to have all people descending of "Illyrians"..
@ Dema seriously are you mentally impaired? For how many times do I have to say
Karcag E5882 = 111 STR's. not 17, and most have 23.

He doesn't have the DYS438=11 or DYS439=13. Otherwise, the rest of his STRs are fairly modal. Anyways, we hope to confirm his positioning with SNP testing, as he could be any other E-CTS9320 that has mutated from GATAH4=11 to 12.

And I agree with you that we're probably becoming the most deeply tested nation in the Balkans ;)

Dema
04-04-19, 02:05
Aspurg what is your ID number, are you tested in FTDNA for markers? Do you get matches at 37 and 67 markers?

Yes i didnt know about this specific e5882 sample being tested at 111 but its not even important, he is just one Hungarian, i dont see big deal. Hungarians share some genetics and Y-lines with Balkans.

Aspurg
04-04-19, 02:09
He doesn't have the DYS438=11 or DYS439=13. Otherwise, the rest of his STRs are fairly modal. Anyways, we hope to confirm his positioning with SNP testing, as he could be any other E-CTS9320 that has mutated from GATAH4=11 to 12.

And I agree with you that we're probably becoming the most deeply tested nation in the Balkans ;)

Yes, I remember one now Z16988+ Moldavian with GATAH4=12 and even dys464cd=17-18, whom I thought was likely Z17107, but I paid no attention to his dys531=11 (which a subclade of Z16988) so Bane snatched him away from me.. He must have tested him for Z16988 based on that STR and it was correct..
In any case CTS9320 is diverse with Albanians, no doubt, so must be involved with Illyarians. Other areas of diversity and presence are basically Daco-Moesan areas, and last one is Greece with Z12764, so no doubt it has multiple affinities. But don't forget where CTS3677* is found. :) And this clade has old values of 385=14-18, GATAH4=10, never seen an Albanian haplotype yet with those. But I've seen one Ukrainian from Lvov from the sample I mentioned, and he's 2/16 with Bulgarian CTS3677*, only difference being 2 faster STR's: 456 and 458.

So what if going by that CTS9320 started out from the way North in EIA? Ofc that Ukrainian could have migrated recently but that's a bit North for Vlachs tough it is a possibility.

Aspurg
04-04-19, 02:23
Aspurg what is your ID number, are you tested in FTDNA for markers? Do you get matches at 37 and 67 markers?

Yes i didnt know about this specific e5882 sample being tested at 111 but its not even important, he is just one Hungarian, i dont see big deal. Hungarians share some genetics and Y-lines with Balkans.

I'm a YSEQ guy. I did their WGS, it's probably still better than BigY700 even though they improved, but I didn't want to allow possibility of some important SNP not being read as it might be very important. But I'll come to FTDNA, .. I might even do some Z17107 SNP just to be registered there as such.. ofc Hungarians share genetics with the Balkans but also they are quite specific, they also have some diversity. Surely plenty of Dacian ancestry among of their E-V13's.

Well this guy should be a very known family (I think barons), I like that (i'm very good at exploring documentary evidence), and I hope to get more people from that region tested. Maybe I get some closer genetic cousins.

Trojet
04-04-19, 02:30
Yes, I remember one now Z16988+ Moldavian with GATAH4=12 and even dys464cd=17-18, whom I thought was likely Z17107, but I paid no attention to his dys531=11 (which a subclade of Z16988) so Bane snatched him away from me.. He must have tested him for Z16988 based on that STR and it was correct..
In any case CTS9320 is diverse with Albanians, no doubt, so must be involved with Illyarians. Other areas of diversity and presence are basically Daco-Moesan areas, and last one is Greece with Z12764, so no doubt it has multiple affinities. But don't forget where CTS3677* is found. :) And this clade has old values of 385=14-18, GATAH4=10, never seen an Albanian haplotype yet with those. But I've seen one Ukrainian from Lvov from the sample I mentioned, and he's 2/16 with Bulgarian CTS3677*, only difference being 2 faster STR's: 456 and 458.
So what if going by that CTS9320 started out from the way North in EIA? Ofc that Ukrainian could have migrated recently but that's a bit North for Vlachs tough it is a possibility.

If these YFull TMRCA's are anything to go by, IMO, E-CTS9320 is just too young to have been involved in many different Paleo-Balkan ethnicities. So I think in all likelihood it would've either been among Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians, or some Thraco-Illyrian zone like the Dardanians or the Moesians.

Aspurg
04-04-19, 02:33
Your supposed tribe would have absorbed so much Albanian-like admixture in Shop and even stronger one later in Montenegro, so are you sure your supposed Steppe looks come from your father and not your Bosniak mother. It is evident there's Turkish/Turkic admixture in some Albanian and Bosnian Ottoman families that could be spotted even nowadays and they're usually very old fashioned which makes it even more obvious. The Cherkez and Tatars of the Balkans are 1 example.


By Steppe one can assume various things.. I sure have local elements too.. But I've been told I look even "German", Bosnian, Bulgarian, clearly "un-Montenegrin" and even "un-Serb" etc.. Autosomally I have strong basal R, I'm closer to Mal'ta, Afontova Gora, Neolithic Karelia and Samara on K36 than basically any Serb or Bosniak I've seen (50+). One Bosniak female matched me, and beat by 1 point there, but she's is alot more Northern than I am (and I'm in K15 map between Serbs, Croats and Moldavians so more Eastern). I posted her insanely Slavic results for her location.
I do definitely have "Uraloid" inclination, because on DNA.land too I get 13 % Finnish..


I'm 1/4 from Bijelo Polje, and that side is very homogeneous. I thought that if some Shop population brought some more "eastern" autosomal mixture to the area that this mixture got maybe preserved locally. Muslims in that area from what I've seen have bits of this mixture as well. And they have some exotic hg's around. Yesterday I commented on D-Y14736 being found in Bosniak from Sjenica (that's my historical area Komaran Bijelo Polje and up to Sjenica, Pester), actually I thought of this clade being Cuman (and that would be soo cool to have DE in one single people as that is surely extremely rare), as it was found in Hungary (anonymous) but it wasn't of this clade so it's likely just Tatar (who still should have some relation to them), so could be much recent migrant. But I have no direct connection with Bosniaks from there (albeit few autosomal matches). I hope to get more results of people specifically from that area.

My mothers side is from Central Bosnia mostly, and surely Bosniaks from there are somewhat more Northern of results we've seen but on some affinities I beat both Serbs and Bosniaks generally. Might have gotten something extra too from Bosniak side for sure..
My mothers direct paternal ancestors were very powerful in Sarajevo in 19th century, 18th century..

My clan not only "had horses", these traditions say something peculiar: "Turks always chased them to take away their horses", or a second unrelated tradition which was old mentiones "a man riding on a horse to take revenge", Christians in Ottoman time did not ride horses generally, though my clan were allowed to be armed as they served the Ottoman state from 15-17th century.. as did others..

Actually various sorts of assimilations are possible, among Karachays one finds I-Y31024 cluster which likely came to there with Cumans after their power was eliminated..

Aspurg
04-04-19, 02:45
If these YFull TMRCA's are anything to go by, IMHO E-CTS9320 is just too young to have been involved in many different Paleo-Balkan ethnicities. So I think in all likelihood it would've either been present among Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians, or some Thraco-Illyrian zone like the Dardanians or the Moesians.

Yes, I would say classical Thracians are out of picture completely. But Thraco-Illyrian contact zone absolutely. And that's where you get Dardanians, Moesians. As for Dacians, I'm 100 % sure them too. Because Dacians have relation to Moesians, and you have many of these CTS9320 clades in Carpathian areas. As I told you I strongly suspect involvement at least of a significant portion of CTS9320 with the cultures such as Basarabi.. There are two CTS9320* clades in Western Bulgaria, and I've found their certain matches in Romanians. Romanians are very poorly tested thus far and that is a big problem. But I've noticed some variety of CTS9320 among them too. I think Rafc mentioned one sample of Romanians (from Geno?) and that there was like 40 % of CTS9320? There is one Romanian CTS9320+ from the Dolj area (one of core Basarabi areas), he could be some other CTS9320* looking at his STR's.

Greek E-Z17264 are a mystery to me, I thought of some Triballians, Dardanians or Illyrians who penetrated there, or were captured by the Greeks, or who knows.. Or some ancient Greek tribe..

Leka
04-04-19, 04:50
Yes i excepted that but it turned out not to be true. I could aactually see that because as I collected 27 STR's from several studies for this haplotype it looked similar to the others so I said to the Serb dys392=12 guy, you separation was likely 1400 ybp..

But wait, hasn't Trojet identified an SNP which marks the transition into dys393=13? Greek has 12, so he still must be one step above..

According to YFulll he hasn't split the Z2705 node as is, so he is just another equivalent sub-branch to Zirnic, Selmani and Ownstyler. ​However, FTDNA uses BY38894 which he tested negative for while the rest of the samples there are BY38894+. BY38894 is pretty unstable SNP to begin with, though. YSEQ doesn't test it and YFull doesn't use it in their analysis either. So yeah, currently there he does represent an earlier split based on this unstable SNP....


I am hopping he upgrades to Y700 because his Big Y500 was pretty low coverage. If the coverage increases we might find another stable SNP that will represent that split. If that split ends up not being real, I am thinking 393 could have back-mutated on these samples - which is possible because I have seen 393=13 and 392=11 in one of the scientific studies (from Albania I believe).

Either way soon enough we will know what the deal is even if he doesn't upgrade. As we speak a 393=12 and 392=13 fella is returning his kit to Dante. Plus the new fella from Vlore sharing those mutations (393=12 and 392=11) just ordered a kit from Dante as well.

Piro Ilir
04-04-19, 16:19
That Scythian sample was from Glinoe, Moldova. Autosomally it was very similar to Albanians and Greeks and not other western Scythian samples. This tells us that he was likely not an Iranic-speaking Scythian but rather just a native who lived in Moldova, possibly Dacian. I think it's unlikely that E-V13 crossed through the Caucasus. The most likely scenario is that certain clades, such as CTS5856, got absorbed by PIE speakers somewhere in central or eastern Europe and then dispersed with them.

If it was found in an Skythian site or settlement as they say, it probably was Skythian and not Dacian. Dacians and Scythians were distinct ethnic people as far as we know from ancient records and archeology. Scythians were an Iranid people, while Dacians weren't.

If J2b became part of nomadic Caspian steppe cultural fusion, I don't see why Ev13 couldn't be!?

Till now we may be sure only that J2b2 and Z2103 were the Illyrian Y-dna core haplogroups. Ev13, is still to be analyze. My assumption that Ev13 crossed through Caucasus was just an assumption.

Piro Ilir
04-04-19, 16:37
Unlikely that Illyric speakers or Proto-Albanian speakers are the reason for the spread of E-V13 into the Balkans. Only a few groups of V13 can be linked to PIE expansion, CTS5856 is the main one. However, CTS5856 seems to have an origin in SE Europe or somewhere nearby going by current data. So we can assume that it didn't necessarily expand from the Pontic-Caspian steppe but rather that it got absorbed somewhere close by and then dispersed. Many V13 groups in the Balkans certainly pre-date the Illyric formation and are the result of earlier migration. V13 itself though expanded from the Balkans originally.

It is also very likely that the Illyrians themselves just developed from local Balkan IE cultures that migrated during the Bronze Age, and so they weren't a separate group that migrated directly from the steppe. Same goes for Albanians, who likely stem from an Illyric speaking population.

The part about if E-V13 got absorbed in the Balkans then G2a would be higher is incorrect. Y-DNA frequencies can fluctuate pretty easily, this can be due to the lack of male offspring as well as war and disease. This is especially the case when it comes to the Bronze Age, which saw the expansion of a pretty war-like people that studies show carried diseases that local farmers weren't immune to. G2a declined all-over Europe after the Neolithic. And so a certain haplogroup can replace another pretty easily.
When I meant 'Illyrians, I meant proto Illyrians. IE people, weren't a group of people in the steppe co existing peacefully with each other. They were divided into distinct nomadic tribes. Proto proto Illyrians were one of these tribes whom spoke an IE dialect. IE tribes were more homogeneous Y-dna because of their different culture, from the rest of Europeans whom were more socially peaceful and matrilineal in some extent.

The reason why G2a declined rapidly due to IE genocide. This is proven by archeology.
The difference between G2a and other dominant Albanian haplogroups is extremely high. It can't be explained by what you say. G2a can be found all over Europe but in little percentages, while Ev13 isn't dispersed all over Europe but only in places where Illyrians or proto proto Illyrians were present.

Piro Ilir
04-04-19, 16:44
Listen, stop spamming and quoting me. It was not Albanians neither Illyrians spread with proto-IE cultures but Indo-Europeans themselves.
Illyrians, Celts, Greeks, Dacians, Thracians are just groups that developed later out of these Indo-Europeans.
Indo-European Bronze Age invasion must have been from 2500 to 1500 BCE, later they must have started to form into these Paleo-European but also Paleo-Balkan populations you are mentioning.
G2a is Neolithic Caucasus migrant that probably picked up agriculture somewhere in Levant and spread it to Anatolia and rest of Neolithic Europe.

First thing, calme down. We are just talking here.
Secondly, I know for sure that there wasn't any Illyrian language back then in 3000 bce. Instead, there was a proto proto Illyrian tribe in the Caspian steppe living a nomadic way of life. Probably this IE tribe had Z2103 and some J2b2 with them. Maybe Ev13 too, but this is a matter of debate.

Piro Ilir
04-04-19, 16:55
Why are you continuing to quote me and post nonsense here? I would say nothing if your posts would be reasonable but you are way behind in knowledge and i suggest reading rather then posting is a good option.

But since you said it.. By linguists, Aromun/Vlach language split from Romanian in 10 century CE, they still can very well understand each other. Therefore we can assume that modern Romanian is from 10 century CE. Albanian is also heavy Latinized but resisted total Latinization when its core in fact remained of Paleo-Balkan Illyrian origin together with lots of words. But even in modern Albanian there is plenty of words with Latin, Slavic, Tukic, Germanic and so on origins.

Furthermore regarding genetics, Romanians are mix of mostly Paleo-Balkan populations but also with huge amount of direct Slavic lines. I believe that they viciously resisted Slavicization even in recent history.
But when observing their genetics, one great portion of their direct paternal lines is in fact Slavic in origin. So they are like mix of Balkan post Roman Latinized remains including Illyrians Thracians Dacians and Greeks with nice amount of later arriving Slavic Y-DNA lines. And of course plenty of smaller one.

Y-dna and genetics in general are not definition for the Ethnicity. It was Albanian language what makes Albanians descendants of Illyrians, it is not their Y-dna.
I claimed that Romanians are romanized Illyrians due to their language structure. It is close to Albanian one, even though it today is the whole Latinized.
Yes, Romanians have some Slavic Y-dna, but this doesn't makes them Slavs, the same as member Apsburg here isn't an Albanian because his Y-dna is related with Albanians. Y-dna isn't a definition for one's ethnicity

Kelmendasi
04-04-19, 17:07
The reason why G2a declined rapidly due to IE genocide. This is proven by archeology.
The difference between G2a and other dominant Albanian haplogroups is extremely high. It can't be explained by what you say. G2a can be found all over Europe but in little percentages, while Ev13 isn't dispersed all over Europe but only in places where Illyrians or proto proto Illyrians were present.
Yes it can, it is clear that the Albanian population has undergone genetic bottlenecks which means that certain haplogroups have increased in frequency and others have decreased. I also did mention that G2a declined massively due to PIE invasions. You should also take into account the fact that Y-DNA haplogroups can be replaced, the paper on Iberia showed just how significant this replacement could've been. E-V13 is in fact dispersed across Europe, there are certain groups in northern Europe, such as E-L540, that have nothing to do with the Balkans going by the current data that we have. The fact still is that just because there isn't high G2a in Albanians, it doesn't mean E-V13 wasn't absorbed in SE Europe.

Kelmendasi
04-04-19, 17:13
If it was found in an Skythian site or settlement as they say, it probably was Skythian and not Dacian. Dacians and Scythians were distinct ethnic people as far as we know from ancient records and archeology. Scythians were an Iranid people, while Dacians weren't.

If J2b became part of nomadic Caspian steppe cultural fusion, I don't see why Ev13 couldn't be!?

Till now we may be sure only that J2b2 and Z2103 were the Illyrian Y-dna core haplogroups. Ev13, is still to be analyze. My assumption that Ev13 crossed through Caucasus was just an assumption.
The paper mentions how diverse the Scythians were and that they absorbed other ethnic groups, so it is very likely that it was a local in that area and not an Iranic Scythian. The autosomal result proves this, it is nothing like the actual western Scythians.

Because J2b-L283 and E-V13 have two completely different migration routes and are completely unrelated. E-V13 was absorbed by PIE speakers, that is clear, but most probably not in the Pontic-Caspian steppe and not that early on.

It is only believed that J2b-L283 and R-Z2103 may have been the haplogroups that arrived the people speaking a language ancestral to the Illyrian languages. E-V13 surely became pretty dominant among them later when they established themselves in the Balkans. Certain Illyrian groups were probably E-V13 dominated.

Piro Ilir
05-04-19, 18:17
Yes it can, it is clear that the Albanian population has undergone genetic bottlenecks which means that certain haplogroups have increased in frequency and others have decreased. I also did mention that G2a declined massively due to PIE invasions. You should also take into account the fact that Y-DNA haplogroups can be replaced, the paper on Iberia showed just how significant this replacement could've been. E-V13 is in fact dispersed across Europe, there are certain groups in northern Europe, such as E-L540, that have nothing to do with the Balkans going by the current data that we have. The fact still is that just because there isn't high G2a in Albanians, it doesn't mean E-V13 wasn't absorbed in SE Europe.

I understand what you say. Still the gap between G2a and Ev13 in Albanians is too large. Can't be explained with what you say. It's impossible. This go even worse if we take in account that G2a is found in south east Albanian inhabited areas, or better saying in supposed ancient Macedonian controlled areas. The Gheg regions have zero G2a. Just look at the G2a maps.
Ev13 in post IE Europe is related with the iron age. It's clear that there's no Ev13 in Basques , likewise in Celtic Britain. All Ev13 seems related with iron age expansions/invasions. It didn't spread with the IE bronze age invasion, except the Illyrian branch

Piro Ilir
05-04-19, 18:31
[QUOTE=Kelmendasi;571770]The paper mentions how diverse the Scythians were and that they absorbed other ethnic groups, so it is very likely that it was a local in that area and not an Iranic Scythian. The autosomal result proves this, it is nothing like the actual western Scythians.
Because J2b-L283 and E-V13 have two completely different migration routes and are completely unrelated. E-V13 was absorbed by PIE speakers, that is clear, but most probably not in the Pontic-Caspian steppe and not that early on.
It is only believed that J2b-L283 and R-Z2103 may have been the haplogroups that arrived the people speaking a language ancestral to the Illyrian languages. E-V13 surely became pretty dominant among them later when they established themselves in the Balkans. Certain Illyrian groups were probably E-V13 dominated.



Yes, Ev13 and J2b2 may have had different migration routes. Still don't get it , why you think it couldn't be absorbed earlier in the steppe the same as J2b2.
I generally don't believe a certain bottleneck of Albanians or proto Albanians. There was a bottleneck 1400 years ago probably, but not such huge as you claim. The main anti Albanian thesis which was spread by Albanian foes, was that during middle age Albanians lived in one tiny village somewhere unknown , and than suddenly exploded multipling like rabbits expanding all over.

Kelmendasi
05-04-19, 18:58
I understand what you say. Still the gap between G2a and Ev13 in Albanians is too large. Can't be explained with what you say. It's impossible. This go even worse if we take in account that G2a is found in south east Albanian inhabited areas, or better saying in supposed ancient Macedonian controlled areas. The Gheg regions have zero G2a. Just look at the G2a maps.
Ev13 in post IE Europe is related with the iron age. It's clear that there's no Ev13 in Basques , likewise in Celtic Britain. All Ev13 seems related with iron age expansions/invasions. It didn't spread with the IE bronze age invasion, except the Illyrian branch
The gap between haplogroups in frequency doesn't matter. You have still yet to explain yourself on how it doesn't work. I already explained that some branches, L540 especially, don't seem to be related to an expansion from the Balkans and so are likely local branches under CTS1273. L540's formation was during the Bronze Age. G2a has been found among Ghegs but at smaller percentages. Can you tell me which branch is this Bronze Age Illyrian branch?

Kelmendasi
05-04-19, 19:06
Yes, Ev13 and J2b2 may have had different migration routes. Still don't get it , why you think it couldn't be absorbed earlier in the steppe the same as J2b2.
I generally don't believe a certain bottleneck of Albanians or proto Albanians. There was a bottleneck 1400 years ago probably, but not such huge as you claim. The main anti Albanian thesis which was spread by Albanian foes, was that during middle age Albanians lived in one tiny village somewhere unknown , and than suddenly exploded multipling like rabbits expanding all over.
Because there simply isn't any evidence to back it up. The most likely scenario is that it got picked up maybe somewhere near the Carpathians or Balkans by PIE speakers, this is backed up by aDNA which shows that M78 was present in the Neolithic Cucuteni-Trypillian culture as well as L618 in Neolithic Dalmatia and Hungary. As well as CTS1273 likely originating in the Balkans. J2b-L283 on the other hand is believed to have migrated to the Russian steppe via the Caucasus where it then got picked up early on by PIE speakers. I'm not claiming it was huge, just saying that it happened and that maybe it could have something to do with haplogroup frequencies. Albanians certainly weren't living in one village or small area, but our numbers did dwindle during the early Medieval.

Piro Ilir
07-04-19, 17:20
The gap between haplogroups in frequency doesn't matter. You have still yet to explain yourself on how it doesn't work. I already explained that some branches, L540 especially, don't seem to be related to an expansion from the Balkans and so are likely local branches under CTS1273. L540's formation was during the Bronze Age. G2a has been found among Ghegs but at smaller percentages. Can you tell me which branch is this Bronze Age Illyrian branch?

10882


I'm sorry but I'm ignorant about genetics. This is what I understand. Anyway, I don't think that Ev13 was all proto proto Illyrian in the steppe. Maybe the Ev13 of Illyrians became more successful. Or Ev13 in Balkans has mostly an Tracian origin. I bet for proto Illyrian.
Just look at the map of G2a. It don't exist in Gheg areas. In Kosova it's zero %. The best place to understand Albanian Y-dna is Kosova if we don't take in account the Slavic Y-dna there.

Kelmendasi
07-04-19, 17:32
10882


I'm sorry but I'm ignorant about genetics. This is what I understand. Anyway, I don't think that Ev13 was all proto proto Illyrian in the steppe. Maybe the Ev13 of Illyrians became more successful. Or Ev13 in Balkans has mostly an Tracian origin. I bet for proto Illyrian.
Just look at the map of G2a. It don't exist in Gheg areas. In Kosova it's zero %. The best place to understand Albanian Y-dna is Kosova if we don't take in account the Slavic Y-dna there.
G2a does exist in Gheg areas of Albania, but at very small frequencies. On the Albanian Y-DNA project a guy from Mat tested as G2a-M406 as well as some Albanians from Kosovo on 23andme that tested as G2a. It reaches a higher frequency among Tosks when compared to Ghegs though. I wouldn't necessarily say that Kosovo is the best place to understand Albanian Y-DNA. Any region that has low Slavic input would be a good candidate for that.

Piro Ilir
07-04-19, 17:48
Because there simply isn't any evidence to back it up. The most likely scenario is that it got picked up maybe somewhere near the Carpathians or Balkans by PIE speakers, this is backed up by aDNA which shows that M78 was present in the Neolithic Cucuteni-Trypillian culture as well as L618 in Neolithic Dalmatia and Hungary. As well as CTS1273 likely originating in the Balkans. J2b-L283 on the other hand is believed to have migrated to the Russian steppe via the Caucasus where it then got picked up early on by PIE speakers. I'm not claiming it was huge, just saying that it happened and that maybe it could have something to do with haplogroup frequencies. Albanians certainly weren't living in one village or small area, but our numbers did dwindle during the early Medieval.

Albanians did dwindled during early middle age I certainly am aware of it. Anyway their areas of dwelling weren't struck in a small area. Tosk and Gheg had shifted as dialects since before the Slavic migration, hence the area was probably big.

Ev13 being picked up in Carpathians is a totally nonsense for someone who has some basic knowledge on IE expansion. Marija Gimbutas has done a good work on this field. Ev13 wasn't picked up by any of the IE tribes. Neolithic farmers were full of G2a and still it wasn't picked up by IE tribes. It was simply because IE warlike people did a true genocide against natives and they didn't mixed with them. My assumption is that Ev13 in Balkans was already part of IE tribes and linguistic/ethnos before their expansion. Almost all Ev13 in modern Europe spread with IE tribes, likely Illyrian or Tracian.
According to Marina Gimbutas, Neolithic farmers of Trypillian culture of Moldavia and Western Ukraine, were all in total fugitive from IE warriors when the later came from the east. These farmers were all taking refuge in remote areas. The happened in other parts of Europe where G2a is found today in remote isolated areas. It's the same with the Slavic Y-dna that we call I2a-din. It has origin in Pripet Marshes which was a very hostile area. They survived the R1 IE genocide by taking refuge in Pripet Marshes.
Early IE tribes of the bronze age didn't picked up any minor Y-dna simply because they were very wild bloodthirsty people. Extremely patrilineal. The only saved there was the mt-dna.

The Etruscans probably of Neolithic farming origin survived by escaping in remote areas as Alps, Crete, Sardinia, remote areas of South Balkans as Peloponnese or Pindus and Lynkesti, and whether certain islands in Aegean.

Kelmendasi
07-04-19, 18:16
Albanians did dwindled during early middle age I certainly am aware of it. Anyway their areas of dwelling weren't struck in a small area. Tosk and Gheg had shifted as dialects since before the Slavic migration, hence the area was probably big.

Ev13 being picked up in Carpathians is a totally nonsense for someone who has some basic knowledge on IE expansion. Marija Gimbutas has done a good work on this field. Ev13 wasn't picked up by any of the IE tribes. Neolithic farmers were full of G2a and still it wasn't picked up by IE tribes. It was simply because IE warlike people did a true genocide against natives and they didn't mixed with them. My assumption is that Ev13 in Balkans was already part of IE tribes and linguistic/ethnos before their expansion. Almost all Ev13 in modern Europe spread with IE tribes, likely Illyrian or Tracian.
According to Marina Gimbutas, Neolithic farmers of Trypillian culture of Moldavia and Western Ukraine, were all in total fugitive from IE warriors when the later came from the east. These farmers were all taking refuge in remote areas. The happened in other parts of Europe where G2a is found today in remote isolated areas. It's the same with the Slavic Y-dna that we call I2a-din. It has origin in Pripet Marshes which was a very hostile area. They survived the R1 IE genocide by taking refuge in Pripet Marshes.
Early IE tribes of the bronze age didn't picked up any minor Y-dna simply because they were very wild bloodthirsty people. Extremely patrilineal. The only saved there was the mt-dna.

The Etruscans probably of Neolithic farming origin survived by escaping in remote areas as Alps, Crete, Sardinia, remote areas of South Balkans as Peloponnese or Pindus and Lynkesti, and whether certain islands in Aegean.
Certain G2a clades certainly were picked up by IE speakers, there are clades which have distributions and expansion linked to IE expansion. Saying that IE peoples didn't mix with locals is completely incorrect, we have samples that are clear mixes of locals and PIE speakers. Some even having local farmer or HG Y-DNA and steppe mtDNA. The presence of V13 in the Balkans certainly pre-dates any PIE presence, it's origin is in the Neolithic Balkans. Yes they were very patriarchal and war-like but they still did pick up local non-R1 lineages, aDNA proves this. If anything they were really good at imposing themselves as the elite over foreign populations, things like this forced them to pick up foreign lineages through assimilation.

The Etruscans likely originate somewhere in the Aegean and only migrated to Italy in the Bronze Age after the IE settlement of the peninsula. They seem to have imposed themselves as an elite over the local IE population in Italy. Multiple Etruscan city names show IE origin as well as native river names and place names also showing IE origin, as well as the strong connection between Etruscan and languages such as Lemnian.

JajarBingan
09-04-19, 23:44
I do not understand how do people think the peoples of today are the same as 3000 years ago?

Due to nationalism + inferiority complex

LeonardoEv13
19-07-19, 10:08
More like due to refusal of intermixing... some people simply choose not to intermix, Albanians have the tendency (historically speaking) of a arranged tribal marriages, which clan, which tribe and so on... this is practiced even today but it’s getting less and less... you also have to understand how things work, key word here Labeling/branding which Greeks brought into play, with that being said Albanians (named from a Illyrian tribe called Albanoi) are illyrians (named in reference to free peoples) & Illyrians are shqiptares/skipitares (named in reference to eagles, eagle people) change the name and confusion begins, for outsiders that it and not for Albanians as Albanians have and always had the tendency to attribute names based on meanings & places... when you apply all the above mentioned to YDNA all is at par with one another... their appeal in appearance is second to none as well, it’s distinguishable, the Balkan Albanians have a fierce cheek bones and jawline structure, artistic people can understand and relate to what I’m saying...

Cheers and love the info on this forum

HarryRussell
28-09-19, 22:04
cool topic and forum

ΦΑΙΔΩΝ
30-10-19, 20:29
If you don't know the Hellenic history you should learn it. And if you did , then you would know that the first Hellenic speaking tribes arived in the area of todays Albania at the end of 3rd millennium bc.
We already had the first setelments in mainland Greece since 2200 bc. Dna studies will provide asistance to archeology and history , they will not substitude those sciences! For nations with enormous and dominant history that goes without saying. For nations with no or little history , dna studies seem very apealling. But in the end history is not gonna change. Revisionism , on the basis of ultranationalism , see Albanians , is doomed to fail.

ΦΑΙΔΩΝ
30-10-19, 20:58
If you don't know the Hellenic history you should learn it. And if you did , then you would know that the first Hellenic speaking tribes arived in the area of todays Albania at the end of 3rd millennium bc.
We already had the first setelments in mainland Greece since 2200 bc. Dna studies will provide asistance to archeology and history , they will not substitude those sciences! For nations with enormous and dominant history that goes without saying. For nations with no or little history , dna studies seem very apealling. But in the end history is not gonna change. Revisionism , on the basis of ultranationalism , see Albanians , is doomed to fail.

torzio
30-10-19, 21:49
If you don't know the Hellenic history you should learn it. And if you did , then you would know that the first Hellenic speaking tribes arived in the area of todays Albania at the end of 3rd millennium bc.
We already had the first setelments in mainland Greece since 2200 bc. Dna studies will provide asistance to archeology and history , they will not substitude those sciences! For nations with enormous and dominant history that goes without saying. For nations with no or little history , dna studies seem very apealling. But in the end history is not gonna change. Revisionism , on the basis of ultranationalism , see Albanians , is doomed to fail.
https://apnews.com/21b38fb90f2e4cb4bec61a91b7488e30

Corinthians would be circa 700bc......we will await further testing from link above

ShpataEMadhe
31-10-19, 01:28
Yes it can, it is clear that the Albanian population has undergone genetic bottlenecks which means that certain haplogroups have increased in frequency and others have decreased. I also did mention that G2a declined massively due to PIE invasions. You should also take into account the fact that Y-DNA haplogroups can be replaced, the paper on Iberia showed just how significant this replacement could've been. E-V13 is in fact dispersed across Europe, there are certain groups in northern Europe, such as E-L540, that have nothing to do with the Balkans going by the current data that we have. The fact still is that just because there isn't high G2a in Albanians, it doesn't mean E-V13 wasn't absorbed in SE Europe.

No bottleneck, just tradition and racism to an extent. Albanians have always tried to keep their "genes" in the house, by that I don't mean they are inbreds (although a lot of this did happen hundreds of years ago everywhere on the planet). I mean they tend to marry exclusively with other albanians and even then they often have extensive background "check" conversations. Even in this day and age when people are moving all other the globe and it is tempting to go to another country to marry and have kids, albanians still tend to go back to get a wife/man from albania or in the country they are living in

It seems the slavs had an impact on the albanian dna more than anyone else (since nobody wants to verify what the roman haplogroups are), I'm not sure why this would be but maybe someone here can explain. Was it via rape or mutual alliance early on since slavs also have impact from albanian dna on their side

Nik
31-10-19, 02:13
If you don't know the Hellenic history you should learn it. And if you did , then you would know that the first Hellenic speaking tribes arived in the area of todays Albania at the end of 3rd millennium bc.
We already had the first setelments in mainland Greece since 2200 bc. Dna studies will provide asistance to archeology and history , they will not substitude those sciences! For nations with enormous and dominant history that goes without saying. For nations with no or little history , dna studies seem very apealling. But in the end history is not gonna change. Revisionism , on the basis of ultranationalism , see Albanians , is doomed to fail.
These theories go back and forth and we still don't know for sure if Greek came from North or from Anatolia. Sure Indo-Europeans came to Greece from the North, but were they the ones that brought Greek? Maybe, maybe not. The strong links between Greek, Armenian, and Iranian need to be studied more seriously.

Revisionism scares you? Would you like to include Zeus and his disguising acts as different animals in order to rape certain beautiful women as history too? Or that's mythology and you decide where to draw the line between the 2?

7th century Lakonian/Doric (Spartan dialect) had words related to Albanian in it, indicating that these Dorians had contacts with these "barbarian" tribes of the North, but also can we really verify 100% that Dorians spoke Greek since the beginning while still living far North? Or they adopted it on the way to Greece? Can your history fully verify that instead of using words like 'highly likely' and 'plausible'?

As for E-V13 that you seem to imply that it came with early Proto-Greeks and Achaeans, most of the E-V13 clades in Greece are too young and they came from further North later during the Middle Ages with a few during Iron Age from the area of Albania and Bulgaria, so don't bother with such a fanatic view of Hellenizing E-V13 too. That's an European clade that spread in all directions likely from Central Europe.

ShpataEMadhe
31-10-19, 18:50
These theories go back and forth and we still don't know for sure if Greek came from North or from Anatolia. Sure Indo-Europeans came to Greece from the North, but were they the ones that brought Greek? Maybe, maybe not. The strong links between Greek, Armenian, and Iranian need to be studied more seriously.

Revisionism scares you? Would you like to include Zeus and his disguising acts as different animals in order to rape certain beautiful women as history too? Or that's mythology and you decide where to draw the line between the 2?

7th century Lakonian/Doric (Spartan dialect) had words related to Albanian in it, indicating that these Dorians had contacts with these "barbarian" tribes of the North, but also can we really verify 100% that Dorians spoke Greek since the beginning while still living far North? Or they adopted it on the way to Greece? Can your history fully verify that instead of using words like 'highly likely' and 'plausible'?

As for E-V13 that you seem to imply that it came with early Proto-Greeks and Achaeans, most of the E-V13 clades in Greece are too young and they came from further North later during the Middle Ages with a few during Iron Age from the area of Albania and Bulgaria, so don't bother with such a fanatic view of Hellenizing E-V13 too. That's an European clade that spread in all directions likely from Central Europe.

Almost all of e-v13 in Greece is recent Albanian or illyrian, a lot of albanians have migrated and converted to Greek throughout history and still happens today

In my opinion balkan ottoman soldiers also had a small impact on the balkan countries genetics. Could be why we see spread of e-v13 around all of balkans even in odd areas like Bulgaria and South Greece, and Slavic i2 all over the balkans too all the way down to greece

Aspurg
31-10-19, 19:29
Almost all of e-v13 in Greece is recent Albanian or illyrian, a lot of albanians have migrated and converted to Greek throughout history and still happens today

In my opinion balkan ottoman soldiers also had a small impact on the balkan countries genetics. Could be why we see spread of e-v13 around all of balkans even in odd areas like Bulgaria and South Greece, and Slavic i2 all over the balkans too all the way down to greece

Part of Greek V13 seems Arvanite, but more of known V13 lineages seem native to Greece. I do not understand why do some Albanians constantly need to patronize V13 and make up a ludicrous idea that "V13 is Albanian", as Illyrian languages were not brought or even mostly spread by V13.

Some Greek clades show Late Bronze Age or Early Iron Age arrival to Greece, but the notion of these being "Illyrian" is beyond ridiculous. Dorians most definitely were not Illyrian.

E-V13 originates from Western Balkan, Cetina culture who were practically enemies (one of important Cetina places became overrun by J-L283 elements as original Cetina culture waned and these had almost no contact despite being neighbors for some time) of incoming proto-Illyrians. And they migrated to Central Balkans and further East where they became part of Danubian archaeological complex which comprised the bulk of Iron Age Daco-Thracian culture, yet Cetina people spoke an Indoeuropean language of some sort, if Thracian is older language cultures like Vatina which must be associated with V13 also spoke Thracian.

E-V13 bastion in the West were likely people like Liburni who were not Illyrians proper, and always had considered themselves as separate.

Regarding your ludicrous comments about V13 being spread to Bulgaria in Middle Ages, mirrored by some of you, V13 in those areas is already very diverse, most importantly CTS1273 is more basally diverse than Albanian with less Bulgarians deep tested which speaks volumes.

Yet there is archaeological and genetic diversity point in Southern Albania where some clades concentrated themselves in LBA/EIA likely pushed from the North by various Bronze Age collapse waves.

In short in Neolithic V13 were in Illyrian areas, in PIE time they embraced violence (don't forget that E1b1b languages are spoken by the entire Middle East and not J, T, L languages though Semetic branch was spread by P58 mostly) and made their base to the East.

One Central Balkan E-V13 group was likely one of (proto) Illyrian groups, these had migrations to modern South Albania, so I guess they comprised various tribes.

I already spoke of some clades such as E-L241 and E-Y3183. Some evidence points to these being potentially related to Dorians. These clades might have spoken Dorian Greek originally, they are both under E-Z16659.

You are that Kastrioti dude right?? You register on so many places under so many nicknames, but one thing always remains the same, always talking about some Ottoman leftovers among Albanians, Jevgs etc., I saw one of your older posts here few years ago talking about E3b arriving with Ottomans. :laughing:

Tutkun Arnaut
31-10-19, 21:00
Almost all of e-v13 in Greece is recent Albanian or illyrian, a lot of albanians have migrated and converted to Greek throughout history and still happens today

In my opinion balkan ottoman soldiers also had a small impact on the balkan countries genetics. Could be why we see spread of e-v13 around all of balkans even in odd areas like Bulgaria and South Greece, and Slavic i2 all over the balkans too all the way down to greece
e v13in the Balkans is Indo-European! it came together with r and j2! as such Greeks should have their own share of it as an Indo-European group of people. e v13 appeared in Balkan mostly in Bronx age

valentinavalley2
31-10-19, 21:30
e v13in the Balkans is Indo-European! it came together with r and j2! as such Greeks should have their own share of it as an Indo-European group of people. e v13 appeared in Balkan mostly in Bronx age

Impossible because E broke off from a different E from the Levant.

Kelmendasi
31-10-19, 22:17
Impossible because E broke off from a different E from the Levant.
That means nothing, E is ~65,200 years old whilst E-V13 is only ~8,100 years old. You can't compare the two. The TMRCA of V13 (~4,800ybp) correlates well with the IE Bronze Age expansions.

ShpataEMadhe
04-11-19, 14:03
Part of Greek V13 seems Arvanite, but more of known V13 lineages seem native to Greece. I do not understand why do some Albanians constantly need to patronize V13 and make up a ludicrous idea that "V13 is Albanian", as Illyrian languages were not brought or even mostly spread by V13.
Some Greek clades show Late Bronze Age or Early Iron Age arrival to Greece, but the notion of these being "Illyrian" is beyond ridiculous. Dorians most definitely were not Illyrian.
E-V13 originates from Western Balkan, Cetina culture who were practically enemies (one of important Cetina places became overrun by J-L283 elements as original Cetina culture waned and these had almost no contact despite being neighbors for some time) of incoming proto-Illyrians. And they migrated to Central Balkans and further East where they became part of Danubian archaeological complex which comprised the bulk of Iron Age Daco-Thracian culture, yet Cetina people spoke an Indoeuropean language of some sort, if Thracian is older language cultures like Vatina which must be associated with V13 also spoke Thracian.
E-V13 bastion in the West were likely people like Liburni who were not Illyrians proper, and always had considered themselves as separate.
Regarding your ludicrous comments about V13 being spread to Bulgaria in Middle Ages, mirrored by some of you, V13 in those areas is already very diverse, most importantly CTS1273 is more basally diverse than Albanian with less Bulgarians deep tested which speaks volumes.
Yet there is archaeological and genetic diversity point in Southern Albania where some clades concentrated themselves in LBA/EIA likely pushed from the North by various Bronze Age collapse waves.
In short in Neolithic V13 were in Illyrian areas, in PIE time they embraced violence (don't forget that E1b1b languages are spoken by the entire Middle East and not J, T, L languages though Semetic branch was spread by P58 mostly) and made their base to the East.
One Central Balkan E-V13 group was likely one of (proto) Illyrian groups, these had migrations to modern South Albania, so I guess they comprised various tribes.
I already spoke of some clades such as E-L241 and E-Y3183. Some evidence points to these being potentially related to Dorians. These clades might have spoken Dorian Greek originally, they are both under E-Z16659.
You are that Kastrioti dude right?? You register on so many places under so many nicknames, but one thing always remains the same, always talking about some Ottoman leftovers among Albanians, Jevgs etc., I saw one of your older posts here few years ago talking about E3b arriving with Ottomans. :laughing:

It is ridiculous to think ottoman left no genetics in balkans, they did not only with the first wave of their middle eastern origin/arab soldiers but likely also later on when they took in balkan kids and raised them as ottoman soldiers which is why there are odd spreads of slavic, albanian etc genes in far reaches of ottoman empire land

For me until there is actual proof, some of these J1, the smaller clades e1b, j2, t1a in balkans are also from early ottoman. Geg albanians seem to be the least affected group in the entire balkans by foreign output and not surprising really since they are mountain dwellers, greeks and bulgarians most affected. Do you not remember the huge population exchange between Greece and Turkey? Do you not know about the vast amount of turks in Bulgaria even today?

Saying albanians are supposed to be "darker" skinned than most Europeans is nonsense because r1b in europe came from asia too not just v13 and l283, the sun light also has something to do with skin colour. Albanians are just as much European as any r1b. Only Northern European i1 can be considered more European than the rest.

Ilyrians were the dominant group in the west balkans and were employed by romans, the spread of v13 in europe is surely mostly ilyrian? It doesn't make sense for v13 to be mostly found in Albania and yet be foreign when this land wasn't more prosperous than others, why would foreigners go and settle there since you believe it is not ilyrian? Greece was prosperous land, which is why a lot of v13 moved there over time. Also what makes you think l283 is more likely ilyrian than v13, why is there a lack of l283 spread in Europe? L283 could be dardani in origin

Aspurg
05-11-19, 23:44
It is ridiculous to think ottoman left no genetics in balkans, they did not only with the first wave of their middle eastern origin/arab soldiers but likely also later on when they took in balkan kids and raised them as ottoman soldiers which is why there are odd spreads of slavic, albanian etc genes in far reaches of ottoman empire land


For me until there is actual proof, some of these J1, the smaller clades e1b, j2, t1a in balkans are also from early ottoman. Geg albanians seem to be the least affected group in the entire balkans by foreign output and not surprising really since they are mountain dwellers, greeks and bulgarians most affected. Do you not remember the huge population exchange between Greece and Turkey? Do you not know about the vast amount of turks in Bulgaria even today?


Well ottomans were conquerors, so it's "cool" that some Albanians would descend of them don't you think?:cool-v: Interestingly among Sandzak Bosniaks who are majority of Albanian roots, some exotic people are found, C-M48 with closest matches in Anatolia, R-L584 with some Anatolian matches. Even some Slavic hg's among them might descend of islamized Bulgarians who migrated westwards with the Ottomans.




Saying albanians are supposed to be "darker" skinned than most Europeans is nonsense because r1b in europe came from asia too not just v13 and l283, the sun light also has something to do with skin colour. Albanians are just as much European as any r1b. Only Northern European i1 can be considered more European than the rest.


Ilyrians were the dominant group in the west balkans and were employed by romans, the spread of v13 in europe is surely mostly ilyrian? It doesn't make sense for v13 to be mostly found in Albania and yet be foreign when this land wasn't more prosperous than others, why would foreigners go and settle there since you believe it is not ilyrian? Greece was prosperous land, which is why a lot of v13 moved there over time. Also what makes you think l283 is more likely ilyrian than v13, why is there a lack of l283 spread in Europe? L283 could be dardani in origin


Well E-V13 is most common in Albanians, but as I showed elsewhere much of it is due to recent founder effect. E-V13 is very high in other places, especially when low Slavic Y-Dna influence in Albanians is adjusted for. So V13 is strong in Greeks, Bulgarians, and even in some Carpathian populations like Ruthenians or Carpathian Ukrainians. L283 is not.


About West-Euro L283's, well in most cases they are Illyrian, for V13 in many cases they should be.

I think original Dardani might be some V13 clades, but the original Dardanians were not Illyrian, Illyrian Dardanians came later and they were a ruling class there.

V13 descends of Dalmatian coast in Neolithic, so if its a hg that stayed in Western Balkans all the time, then obviously it has nothing to do with spread of initial Illyrians. And if it is actually some people that migrated far to the East again they are not initial Illyrians.

It doesn't fit with the genetic facts at all, diversity points bulk of V13 that is CTS5856 migrated Eastwards/Northeastwards. Also if V13 were some locals then wouldn't have exploded at that time. All hg's when they demographically explode they expand to other places. So R-Z93 is far more common in Indian subcontinent than in central Asia. And ofc, it is more common in Central Asia than in East Europe too from where it originally expanded.

J-L283 is also far more common in Western Balkans than from where it expanded.

ShpataEMadhe
06-11-19, 14:04
Well ottomans were conquerors, so it's "cool" that some Albanians would descend of them don't you think?:cool-v: Interestingly among Sandzak Bosniaks who are majority of Albanian roots, some exotic people are found, C-M48 with closest matches in Anatolia, R-L584 with some Anatolian matches. Even some Slavic hg's among them might descend of islamized Bulgarians who migrated westwards with the Ottomans.
Well E-V13 is most common in Albanians, but as I showed elsewhere much of it is due to recent founder effect. E-V13 is very high in other places, especially when low Slavic Y-Dna influence in Albanians is adjusted for. So V13 is strong in Greeks, Bulgarians, and even in some Carpathian populations like Ruthenians or Carpathian Ukrainians. L283 is not.
About West-Euro L283's, well in most cases they are Illyrian, for V13 in many cases they should be.
I think original Dardani might be some V13 clades, but the original Dardanians were not Illyrian, Illyrian Dardanians came later and they were a ruling class there.
V13 descends of Dalmatian coast in Neolithic, so if its a hg that stayed in Western Balkans all the time, then obviously it has nothing to do with spread of initial Illyrians. And if it is actually some people that migrated far to the East again they are not initial Illyrians.
It doesn't fit with the genetic facts at all, diversity points bulk of V13 that is CTS5856 migrated Eastwards/Northeastwards. Also if V13 were some locals then wouldn't have exploded at that time. All hg's when they demographically explode they expand to other places. So R-Z93 is far more common in Indian subcontinent than in central Asia. And ofc, it is more common in Central Asia than in East Europe too from where it originally expanded.
J-L283 is also far more common in Western Balkans than from where it expanded.

Ottoman were conquerers but not because they were strong because they were numerous. I am not a fan of conquerers as much as I am of defenders. So no, it isn't cool at all to descend from criminal rapists, not in my opinion, especially when they brought no good to europe, just stole peoples money, land and children. Seems only a few albanians descended from them according to gjenetika unless we are talking about potential Slavic, Greek etc ottoman jannisaries but we can't know how much of this is from earlier Slavic invasion or ottoman input

As for v13 and l283 it wouldn't make much sense for v13 to be strong amongst all of Albania not just north and to be spread throughout europe and not be ilyrian. If we go by history they inhabited the coastal region of Western balkans, other groups like thracians, dardani etc were more Eastern. Even slavs have more v13 than l283, l283 may be ilyrian too but v13 seems more likely due to its great expansion throughout Europe
Can you do some percentages of subclades of v13 and j2b in Albania (and bosnia/serbia if you can), I want to see which are the highest percentages

Aspurg
08-11-19, 18:58
As for v13 and l283 it wouldn't make much sense for v13 to be strong amongst all of Albania not just north and to be spread throughout europe and not be ilyrian. If we go by history they inhabited the coastal region of Western balkans, other groups like thracians, dardani etc were more Eastern. Even slavs have more v13 than l283, l283 may be ilyrian too but v13 seems more likely due to its great expansion throughout Europe
Can you do some percentages of subclades of v13 and j2b in Albania (and bosnia/serbia if you can), I want to see which are the highest percentages


E-V13 has had to expand somewhere. Looking at aDNA evidence it doesn't seem that E-V13 is connected to Bell Bekaers, to Italics, to Celts. The main clade of V13 is CTS5856, and its diversity points at Central-Eastern Balkans/Carpathians, so Thraco-Dacian areas..


There was a part of Vatin culture which was associated with Illyrians and some ALbanian clades might belong there. Additionally some Cetina culture leftovers like PH1246 were Illyrian.


But it's not as some Albanians (usually R-Z2705+) would suggest that V13 expands out of Albania. That makes V13 a hg of cucks that is V13 are Neolithic pre-Illyrians who stayed in the same place and got cucked into becoming Illyrians because of E-L618 presence in Neolithic Adriatic coast. That sounds nice if you are E-V13- or if you are E-V13+ cuck... The one who strongly expands in Bronze Age is not a cuck at that time..



1. Six most common E-V13 clusters in Albanians represent 60.8 % of Albanian E-V13 linegaes.
Gjenetika.com 141/232
E-Z38456>BY4461 35
E-Y146086 30
E-FGC33625 26
E-PH2180 22
E-Y173822 17
E-Z27131 11


2. Six most common E-V13 clusters in Montenegrins represent 72.0 % of Montenegrin E-V13 linegaes.
Mirabal et al. 77/107
E-BY165837 Kuchi 27
E-BY14151 Vasojevici 21
E-Y133830 Bjelopavlici 11
E-A18833 Bjelice 7
E-Z38456>BY4461 7
E-PH1173 4




3. Six most common E-V13 clusters in Bulgarians represent 17.0 % of Bulgarian E-V13 linegaes.
24/141 (Bulgarian FTDNA project, Karachanak et al, Begona Martinez-Cruz et al)
E-S7461(389b=29) 6
E-A18833 5
E-Y3183* 4
E-S7461>BY5465 3
E-PH1173 3
E-Z5018* 3


This is why I made this, to show that Albanian and Montenegrin E-V13 percentage is artificially inflated through some clans getting expansive in the past 600 years or so. So don't bother to play the percentage card when it comes to V13. In Montenegro there are I2a clans that expanded such as Ozrinici, but this is common especially among V13 (Kuchi, Vasojevici, Katunjani-Bjelice, Bjelopavlici).

ShpataEMadhe
15-11-19, 14:07
E-V13 has had to expand somewhere. Looking at aDNA evidence it doesn't seem that E-V13 is connected to Bell Bekaers, to Italics, to Celts. The main clade of V13 is CTS5856, and its diversity points at Central-Eastern Balkans/Carpathians, so Thraco-Dacian areas..


There was a part of Vatin culture which was associated with Illyrians and some ALbanian clades might belong there. Additionally some Cetina culture leftovers like PH1246 were Illyrian.


But it's not as some Albanians (usually R-Z2705+) would suggest that V13 expands out of Albania. That makes V13 a hg of cucks that is V13 are Neolithic pre-Illyrians who stayed in the same place and got cucked into becoming Illyrians because of E-L618 presence in Neolithic Adriatic coast. That sounds nice if you are E-V13- or if you are E-V13+ cuck... The one who strongly expands in Bronze Age is not a cuck at that time..



This is why I made this, to show that Albanian and Montenegrin E-V13 percentage is artificially inflated through some clans getting expansive in the past 600 years or so. So don't bother to play the percentage card when it comes to V13. In Montenegro there are I2a clans that expanded such as Ozrinici, but this is common especially among V13 (Kuchi, Vasojevici, Katunjani-Bjelice, Bjelopavlici).

Who gives a shit what expanded the last 600 years, all populations did so explain why V13 is strongest in Albania. V13 not being founded in Albania doesn't mean it is not ilyrian, it came from asia/North Africa thousands of years ago across Bulgaria (where you found some sub clades) and then into the western balkans where they became the ilyrians

Aspurg
16-11-19, 00:02
Who gives a shit what expanded the last 600 years, all populations did so explain why V13 is strongest in Albania. V13 not being founded in Albania doesn't mean it is not ilyrian, it came from asia/North Africa thousands of years ago across Bulgaria (where you found some sub clades) and then into the western balkans where they became the ilyrians

Not exactly, it came from the Middle East or just maybe North Africa directly more than 8000 years ago. It is a Neolithic lineage which likely was mostly confined to Dalmatian coast from around 6300 BC until 2500 BC. So almost 4000 years of being there. Then something happened, the Steppe IE waves were beginning to arrive so out of the native Neolithic element Cetina culture was created. So the local remnants of Hvar culture embraced war, social stratification and other things that came with Indoeuropeans. Cetina culture died out without inheritors but it seems most of E-V13 that is CTS1273 were part of daughter cultures of Cetina: Belotic-Bela Crkva, Bubanj Hum III and Armenochori, and then likely Danubian complex. None of these cultures can be regarded as proto-Illyrian. In fact considering the fact that Minyan Ware was recorded in Bubanj Hum III they are far more likely to have something to do with proto-Greeks.. Except the successor of Belotic-bela Crkva and Bubanj Hum III, Vatin had a Western Serbian variant which was "illyrianized" early on.

So J-L283/Illyrians essentially took over the old E-V13 lands..

So you see as usual the hugely expanding haplogroups usually expand into their non-native area, they overgrow the native area and have to expand to other peoples lands!! J-L283 is not native to Western Balkan but it demographically boomed there. R-Z93 is not native to India but it boomed there. R-L51 is not native to Western Europe but it boomed there. J-P58 is not native to Middle East but it boomed there. E-V13 is not native to Eastern/Central Balkan but it boomed there...

Dema
16-11-19, 02:36
wrong thread

silver bird
17-11-19, 00:16
Hi PaschalisB While reading your message I was quite interested to see your information ,I too have a E-V13 A small few ...Slovenia- Ukraine- Hungary -Greece. - J1C was born 16,500 years ago likely Eastern Mediteranian. In my lineage I have about 18 countries with all the different percentages of my DNA throughout. Hopefully this message may find you or others with the same or similar. Thank you for any reply, from Silverbird.

Aspurg
17-11-19, 23:40
Not exactly, it came from the Middle East or just maybe North Africa directly more than 8000 years ago.

The Albanian E-L618 are below Saudi and above Saudi is Danish sample so this branch of L618 might not be of Middle Eastern origin. E-L618 might be Mesolithic too. E-L618+ sample and C-V20+ sample were EEF mostly, but female sample from there had WHG influence, and many blue eyes mutations, I think it even lacked light skin mutation. Plus it was always known that Dalmatian Cardial Neolithic had Mesolithic element.

rafc
18-11-19, 12:22
Interesting is that the Saudi belongs to the same branch as the Albanians (and the Sardinian sample), so very likely their history is connected to that of V13. In the other branch we only have a Latvian and a Lebanese (plus some others, mostly Italians, that are predicted to belong to this branch). So this second branch can still represent a group of L618 that 'stayed behind', which would indicate a Levant origin of L618, in line with Cardial ware origins. Offcourse we could find a sample tomorrow that show this group did not stay behind.

Aspurg
18-11-19, 20:59
Interesting is that the Saudi belongs to the same branch as the Albanians (and the Sardinian sample), so very likely their history is connected to that of V13. In the other branch we only have a Latvian and a Lebanese (plus some others, mostly Italians, that are predicted to belong to this branch). So this second branch can still represent a group of L618 that 'stayed behind', which would indicate a Levant origin of L618, in line with Cardial ware origins. Offcourse we could find a sample tomorrow that show this group did not stay behind.

Some time ago I predicted that Danish and Algerian/Saudi (I didn't know the STR's of Saudi) will be related based upon dys578=9, E-V13/E-BY6578 modal is 8. And this has been confirmed by Albanians being E-BY28614+ and also sharing dys578=9. So this STR seems very important for E-BY28614 (also one English will belong there most likely). Italian E-L618 (there is one American claiming French descent with an identical haplotype to one Italian so he should be rather of Italian origin) does not share this STR, so they are almost certainly BY28614-.

But I've identified certain slow STR's that the Italian does not share with the Lebanese & Latvian, such as dys552, dys540 which seem their own private mutations at the E-BY6578 level. He does share the likes of dys643, dys533, dys534 which seem also distinct STR's at the E-BY6578 level (off-modal for BY28614/V13), especially first two are slow so they should be reliable.

Point is, Italians seem like an earlier split from the Lebanese/Latvian. They are 31/111. That would make this Lebanese of likely European origin.
-Italians E-BY6578 dys643, dys533, dys534
---Lebanese/Latvian dys552, dys510, dys540 etc. TMRCA 4800 ybp

So the home of E-BY6578 might be Italy, and if YFull Sardinian is distant from the other BY28614's he might be old there too, indicating likely Cardial connection (that's how the Spanish E-L618 got there probably as well). But if indeed all L618 clades are European they might have been easily the Mesolithic Capsian+WHG (who apparently did exist in the area and did have even direct connection with the Dalmatian Cardial culture) assimilated by the C-V20/G2a2 Cardials around Dalmatia.

Leka
18-11-19, 21:01
Interesting is that the Saudi belongs to the same branch as the Albanians (and the Sardinian sample), so very likely their history is connected to that of V13. In the other branch we only have a Latvian and a Lebanese (plus some others, mostly Italians, that are predicted to belong to this branch). So this second branch can still represent a group of L618 that 'stayed behind', which would indicate a Levant origin of L618, in line with Cardial ware origins. Offcourse we could find a sample tomorrow that show this group did not stay behind.
Based on their TMRCA (3500-2500ybp?) the Saudi fella most likely is with origin from the Balkans or Southern Europe. Don’t forget that the Dalmatian sample splits the current L618 node.

Wouldn’t be surprised if he is some Albanian remnant from the Ottoman period either. We have seen few other common Albanian clusters show up among them, like R1b-BY611>Z2705, R1b-PF7563>FGC40202 etc.

Aspurg
18-11-19, 21:09
Based on their TMRCA (3500-2500ybp?) the Saudi fella most likely is with origin from the Balkans or Southern Europe. Don’t forget that the Dalmatian sample splits the current L618 node.


You mean that the ancient Dalmatian L618 is negative to some SNP's at the L618 level? I was looking at his Y-DNA file a little bit but wasn't checking for L618 level SNP's except few...

Progon
18-11-19, 22:34
Would really love to see a real insight into the origin of this Y-DNA instead of astrology-like predictions.

Aspurg
18-11-19, 23:13
Would really love to see a real insight into the origin of this Y-DNA instead of astrology-like predictions.

It's distant origin is pretty much clear and options are narrowed down. Either Cardial descendant PPNB (and of Natufians before) or pre-Neolithic late Mesolithic origin directly from North Africa.

Progon
18-11-19, 23:34
It's distant origin is pretty much clear and options are narrowed down. Either Cardial descendant PPNB (and of Natufians before) or pre-Neolithic late Mesolithic origin directly from North Africa.

I don't think they crossed directly from North Africa. I think they lived North from their brethren the Natufians. South East Turkey is probably the place we are looking to. Anyway, tested bones have the last saying.

Leka
19-11-19, 01:34
You mean that the ancient Dalmatian L618 is negative to some SNP's at the L618 level? I was looking at his Y-DNA file a little bit but wasn't checking for L618 level SNP's except few...

Yes, he is negative for CTS1975 and PF2252.

Aspurg
19-11-19, 02:15
Yes, he is negative for CTS1975 and PF2252.

I missed this, even though it was posted here some time ago immediately before my post. So negative for 2 out of 16 with reads. There is lots of SNP's at L618 level (51) but at the very least this should increase the TMRCA by 500 years, while indicating these downstream L618 clades are European. So this speaks more in favor of pre-Neolithic origin for L618.

The sea level in the Strait of Sicily was not as great 10000 years ago as it is today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantelleria_Vecchia_Bank_Megalith

ShpataEMadhe
21-11-19, 00:11
Not exactly, it came from the Middle East or just maybe North Africa directly more than 8000 years ago. It is a Neolithic lineage which likely was mostly confined to Dalmatian coast from around 6300 BC until 2500 BC. So almost 4000 years of being there. Then something happened, the Steppe IE waves were beginning to arrive so out of the native Neolithic element Cetina culture was created. So the local remnants of Hvar culture embraced war, social stratification and other things that came with Indoeuropeans. Cetina culture died out without inheritors but it seems most of E-V13 that is CTS1273 were part of daughter cultures of Cetina: Belotic-Bela Crkva, Bubanj Hum III and Armenochori, and then likely Danubian complex. None of these cultures can be regarded as proto-Illyrian. In fact considering the fact that Minyan Ware was recorded in Bubanj Hum III they are far more likely to have something to do with proto-Greeks.. Except the successor of Belotic-bela Crkva and Bubanj Hum III, Vatin had a Western Serbian variant which was "illyrianized" early on.
So J-L283/Illyrians essentially took over the old E-V13 lands..
So you see as usual the hugely expanding haplogroups usually expand into their non-native area, they overgrow the native area and have to expand to other peoples lands!! J-L283 is not native to Western Balkan but it demographically boomed there. R-Z93 is not native to India but it boomed there. R-L51 is not native to Western Europe but it boomed there. J-P58 is not native to Middle East but it boomed there. E-V13 is not native to Eastern/Central Balkan but it boomed there...

This doesn't make any sense, if e-v13 was in Western balkans 2500 BC it is likely ilyrian/proto ilyrian and definitely became ilyrian for the next 2-3 thousand years. Also where are you plucking these magical numbers from?

Nothing is native anywhere, where something boomed is where a tribe and their culture was formed

R1b is not native to europe yet it is all over it, I don't get your point here. Ev13 and j2b are found in Albania because that is where the tribe lived and formed its culture/language over many many years, there is no boom. E-v13 found elsewhere is normal for such an early European marker so not all E-V13 is Albanian but I would wager most of it in Greece IS due to the many albanian to Greek converts over many years

ShpataEMadhe
21-11-19, 00:15
Interesting is that the Saudi belongs to the same branch as the Albanians (and the Sardinian sample), so very likely their history is connected to that of V13. In the other branch we only have a Latvian and a Lebanese (plus some others, mostly Italians, that are predicted to belong to this branch). So this second branch can still represent a group of L618 that 'stayed behind', which would indicate a Levant origin of L618, in line with Cardial ware origins. Offcourse we could find a sample tomorrow that show this group did not stay behind.

E-V13 has nothing to do with Saudis, they mostly belong to J1

E-V13 has as much to do with Saudis as R1b and I1, zero

Mark Polman
21-11-19, 12:49
The sea level in the Strait of Sicily was not as great 10000 years ago as it is today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantelleria_Vecchia_Bank_Megalith

Two links for those who wish to wander off looking for lost grounds since the last ice age:
https://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/briefs/gornitz_09/
https://webapp.navionics.com/#boating
Most shore lines are quite steep, but the North Sea, Denmark, Baltic, Brittanny, Atlantic Andalusia, South of Sicily and West of Tunesia stand out.

panstam
26-09-20, 17:52
Hello from me.
Recently completed my Ydna tests to FDNA. The Ydna results reveal E-Z19851.
As i know my grand-grand father was from Lesbos island or Aibali.
Is it possible to find more informations about my ancestors?
Thank You.

kuzmosi
26-09-20, 19:45
Hi panstam! Our last common direct paternal line ancestor was Z5017, who lived 4400 years ago in the Bronze Age.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z5017/

I'm CTS9320>Z17107>A19238. YF11315 on YFULL. Where was our father's homeland? Good question. What do you think from this all european branch?

Progon
26-09-20, 20:04
https://i.imgur.com/TE4WW10.jpg

panstam
27-09-20, 19:27
Hello Kuzmosi,
I dont have alot to say about this European Branch.
But, i search a little about this branch and i think i read smwhere that this branch comes from the Aromanians ethnic group.
Is that correct or not? That's a questions for me. And if it's correct, where are they came from?
The map of progon what exactly is showing?
Thank You.

Progon
27-09-20, 19:59
Hello Kuzmosi,
I dont have alot to say about this European Branch.
But, i search a little about this branch and i think i read smwhere that this branch comes from the Aromanians ethnic group.
Is that correct or not? That's a questions for me. And if it's correct, where are they came from?
The map of progon what exactly is showing?
Thank You.

There is a lot of politically motivated people spreading disinformation around the boards, so don't put too much effort on what they write except for peer reviewed scientific papers.

Cypriotes have a lot of E-V13 Z5017 as well, i doubt everything can be explained with Aromanians when their dominant Y-DNA is J2a and R1b followed by E-V13.

panstam
30-09-20, 14:49
Thank you dear Progon.
The previous map is showing the expansion of V13 subclade around Balkans and Europe?
Thank You.

Aspurg
30-09-20, 16:02
Hello from me.
Recently completed my Ydna tests to FDNA. The Ydna results reveal E-Z19851.
As i know my grand-grand father was from Lesbos island or Aibali.
Is it possible to find more informations about my ancestors?
Thank You.


Congrats! I saw your result recently. You did SNP pack, and came out as Z19851+ and BY4685+ which is on the same level. They don't have anything below Z19851 in the Pack but per STR's you do not seem to be closely related to any other E-Z19851. Per few STR's you might belong to E-Y137715 (defined by 4 SNPs) but even if you do you will split that level. Regarding Aromanians, per STR's in their study few belong to E-Z19851>A18833 cluster which is numerous in the Balkans. This cluster at Y111 has 5 defining mutations at the A18833 level and 3 mutations at the A18840 level, you share 2 and 1 respectively. Maybe you are positive to something at that level, it is hard to say because you don't share 2 of these A18840 level STR's.

So chances are your clade was in Greece for some time. Only BigY/NGS can tell you more, as STR's are inconclusive regarding these identified subclades. Most likely you do not have relatives closer than MBA/LBA, of the currently tested people.




Cypriotes have a lot of E-V13 Z5017 as well, i doubt everything can be explained with Aromanians when their dominant Y-DNA is J2a and R1b followed by E-V13.


There are almost no tested Cypriots for SNPs, the only one tested is both Z5017- and Z5018-. Based on STR's there are probably many E-L241's there, occasional Z5017s like PH1173 common in Greece, but not much can be said of their E-V13.

Progon
30-09-20, 18:47
Thank you dear Progon.
The previous map is showing the expansion of V13 subclade around Balkans and Europe?
Thank You.

Hello panstam, we don't yet know. But somehow many people are connecting the spread of E-V13 in the Balkans with the Danubian Urnfield influence attested to all three Paleo-Balkan people, which they received during LBA, Illyrians/Thracians/Greeks.

Perhaps, perhaps not. We are still not sure, but some of the E-V13 subclades show a spread during LBA and the diversity is precisely where the Eastern Urnfield culture was flourishing during Middle Bronze Age to Late Bronze Age, so that means Pannonian-Carpathian basin.