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PaschalisB
25-07-17, 10:50
I did some research in familytreedna and classified some subclades with surnames and places of origin where available. The Nevgen tool was very helpful in predicting some clades.
It seems the main subclades in Greece are:

Z5018>S2979>FGC11457 (Peloponnese including Arvanite areas)
Z5018>S2979>Z16659>L241 (Peloponnese)
Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183 (Peloponnese)

Z5017>Z5016>CTS9320 (Thessaly, Thrace, Epirus, Syros)

S7461 (Peloponnese)


More samples are needed, but the general picture is that Z5018 clades are concentrated south, while Z5017 is concentrated north.

Anyone who can contribute more is welcome.

PaschalisB
25-07-17, 13:30
I have also created two maps with participants in FTDNA projects confirmed for CTS9320 and S2979

CTS9320
http://i68.tinypic.com/2s0h65z.png

S2979
http://i65.tinypic.com/210geua.png

One could notice that CTS9320 is more common in the Balkans Central and East Europe (possible spread with R1a/I2a1b-din?), while S2979 is more widespread in Europe, including the British Isles (possible spread with R1b?)

DuPidh
25-07-17, 15:02
Good job! I don't know how much data you have had, but I would say knowing the history, that S2979 looks like Roman soldiers from mainly Thracian and North Albania in England. CTS9320 looks Neolithic distribution

PaschalisB
25-07-17, 15:12
Good job! I don't know how much data you have had, but I would say knowing the history, that S2979 looks like Roman soldiers from mainly Thracian and North Albania in England. CTS9320 looks Neolithic distribution

Regarding Greece I have just 15 samples from various FTDNA projects.

PaschalisB
25-07-17, 15:14
CTS9320 looks Neolithic distribution

CTS9320 can't be Neolithic, since the most recent ancestor lived 2900 years before present, which is long after the Neolithic. It's more likely to be associated with the Thraco-Cimmerian culture.

PaschalisB
25-07-17, 15:22
I would say knowing the history, that S2979 looks like Roman soldiers from mainly Thracian and North Albania in England.

It think it was spread with the Urnfield Culture, the map reminds me of this culture's area a lot.

LeBrok
25-07-17, 16:32
From what I've seen, all mainland Greece is fairly well mixed, with minimal regional differences. You might see that with more samples in your database.

Azzurro
25-07-17, 16:57
Thanks and Great Job PaschalisB, work like this is always well appreciated, I'll say something interesting that when I nevgen predicted the Cypriot samples from the recent paper I found Y3183 and S7461 which is great see here, Possibly one of those might turn out to be a Mycenaean marker.

PaschalisB
25-07-17, 17:16
Thanks and Great Job PaschalisB, work like this is always well appreciated, I'll say something interesting that when I nevgen predicted the Cypriot samples from the recent paper I found Y3183 and S7461 which is great see here, Possibly one of those might turn out to be a Mycenaean marker.

Mycenaean or Dorian? I have come to believe S2979 was brought into Greece with the Dorians from the Northwest.

Azzurro
25-07-17, 17:40
Mycenaean or Dorian? I have come to believe S2979 was brought into Greece with the Dorians from the Northwest.

Maybe it was brought in by both, in Cyprus there was no Doric colonies, maybe the Mycenaeans and the Dorians came from the same pre Greek location, with Y3183 being brought in by the Mycenaeans and the other S2979 (L241 and FGC11457) brought in by the Dorians? The age of S2979 is old enough at a TMRCA of 4000 ybp to have been distributed by two sources in Greece, also Y3183 seems to match a more a Mycenaean dispersal while FGC11457 (TMRCA 3200 ybp) and L241 (TMRCA 2800 ybp) seems to be matching when the Dorians settled in Greece. It fits well with the dates.

PaschalisB
25-07-17, 18:04
Maybe it was brought in by both, in Cyprus there was no Doric colonies, maybe the Mycenaeans and the Dorians came from the same pre Greek location, with Y3183 being brought in by the Mycenaeans and the other S2979 (L241 and FGC11457) brought in by the Dorians? The age of S2979 is old enough at a TMRCA of 4000 ybp to have been distributed by two sources in Greece, also Y3183 seems to match a more a Mycenaean dispersal while FGC11457 (TMRCA 3200 ybp) and L241 (TMRCA 2800 ybp) seems to be matching when the Dorians settled in Greece. It fits well with the dates.

There were Dorians in Cyprus, they arrived peacefully though, unlike they did in the greek mainland.

Azzurro
25-07-17, 18:58
There were Dorians in Cyprus, they arrived peacefully though, unlike they did in the greek mainland.

I did not know that thanks, perhaps S2979 was all brought in by the Dorians in Greece, I also checked Albanian E-V13 to compare, S2979 appears to be 50% of Albanian E-V13 as well, it looks like maybe S2979 was born in an population that was ancestral to both the Dorians and Illyrians. S7461 right now appears to be the best candidate for Mycenaean E-V13 and despite S7461 looking like an Alpine or Northern marker it would make sense since the Mycenaeans could have carried this since they probably came directly from the Steppe and would have maybe had more Northern looking haplogroups than the later Dorians, Ionians, etc...

Maleth
25-07-17, 19:04
Thank you for your work Paschalis. This looks very interesting. Maybe deeper clades will be able to tell different stories. Looking forward

Shetop
26-07-17, 10:04
Very good topic. I hope it will lead to more Greeks doing SNP tests.

athos
14-09-17, 01:50
I did some research in familytreedna and classified some subclades with surnames and places of origin where available. The Nevgen tool was very helpful in predicting some clades.
It seems the main subclades in Greece are:

Z5018>S2979>FGC11457 (Peloponnese including Arvanite areas)
Z5018>S2979>Z16659>L241 (Peloponnese)
Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183 (Peloponnese)

Z5017>Z5016>CTS9320 (Thessaly, Thrace, Epirus, Syros)

S7461 (Peloponnese)


More samples are needed, but the general picture is that Z5018 clades are concentrated south, while Z5017 is concentrated north.

Anyone who can contribute more is welcome.

Hello Paschalis,

Interesting information. Thanks for posting.

I am E-V13. 23andme did not break down any further. My family on both sides is from the Peloponnese.

PaschalisB
20-09-17, 21:01
Hello Paschalis,

Interesting information. Thanks for posting.

I am E-V13. 23andme did not break down any further. My family on both sides is from the Peloponnese.

Yes, 23andme doesn't break E-V13 down. If you are interested in knowing the exact clade I would suggest FTDNA's E-V68 SNP pack

Trojet
22-09-17, 13:28
Hello Paschalis,
Interesting information. Thanks for posting.
I am E-V13. 23andme did not break down any further. My family on both sides is from the Peloponnese.

Yes, 23andme doesn't break E-V13 down. If you are interested in knowing the exact clade I would suggest FTDNA's E-V68 SNP pack

Or FTDNA's specific E-V13 SNP Pack. But you'd have to order minimum Y-DNA12 STR test from FTDNA first.

The other more cost effective option is the YSEQ E-V13 SNP Panel: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=2486

blevins13
22-09-17, 13:58
I did not know that thanks, perhaps S2979 was all brought in by the Dorians in Greece, I also checked Albanian E-V13 to compare, S2979 appears to be 50% of Albanian E-V13 as well, it looks like maybe S2979 was born in an population that was ancestral to both the Dorians and Illyrians. S7461 right now appears to be the best candidate for Mycenaean E-V13 and despite S7461 looking like an Alpine or Northern marker it would make sense since the Mycenaeans could have carried this since they probably came directly from the Steppe and would have maybe had more Northern looking haplogroups than the later Dorians, Ionians, etc...

Mycenaeans show more Anatolian than steppe ancestry according to Lazaridis last paper on this matter.....


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Garrick
01-10-17, 02:26
Very interesting article, reputation.

One of part of E-V13 probably spread together with R1b-Z2103.

If we see Balkans/Romania we can find for example for Dacians, Free Dacians (Carpi).

One interesting article about R1b-Z2103-Dacian.

The fire peoples-urns & metals. The R1b conquest of Europe. Dacians-R1b-Z2103
https://vieilleeurope.wordpress.com/2017/03/06/the-fire-peoples-urns-metals-the-r1b-conquest-of-europe-dacians-r1bz2103/

hrvat22
01-10-17, 08:18
I did some research in familytreedna and classified some subclades with surnames and places of origin where available. The Nevgen tool was very helpful in predicting some clades.
It seems the main subclades in Greece are:

Z5018>S2979>FGC11457 (Peloponnese including Arvanite areas)
Z5018>S2979>Z16659>L241 (Peloponnese)
Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183 (Peloponnese)
Z5017>Z5016>CTS9320 (Thessaly, Thrace, Epirus, Syros)
S7461 (Peloponnese)


More samples are needed, but the general picture is that Z5018 clades are concentrated south, while Z5017 is concentrated north.

Anyone who can contribute more is welcome.

As far I can see from Croatia all these subclade have source on the border of Albania, Montenegro and Serbia(if we believe co-administrator of the FTDNA E-M35 project), subclade CTS5856(4700 year) which is probably ancestor of later Illyrian i.e Albanian mutations in that area.

We need to see which subclade exist in Greece and when they came there, if they came to Greece 4,000 years ago they probably can not be Illyric no Albanian, but if they come to Greece before 2000, 1500 or 500 years they are very likely Albanian-Illyrian origin in Greece.

I do not know Greece history and when first Greece name or tribe appears in that area ...in that age appearance of Greece names needs look for the original Greek haplotypes.

If turns out that E1b subclades are first haplotypes in Greek history it means that they in fact are Greeks origin and all branches behind them are Greeks origin.

It still does not change fact that original mutation of the Greeks is in the hills of Albania and that Greeks are with a good part of today Albanians cousins by the male line.


Everything will be known in the future.

https://postimg.org/image/4qxnhdqsb/

Dianatomia
01-10-17, 13:41
We should be careful by correlating Illyrian and Albanian. I.e. we still do not have DNA of Illyrians as we do of Myceneans. The Illyrians may very well have been different from Albanians or peoples in the Balkans in general. E1b subclades may have wondered around in the Balkans and may have been picked up by Albanians and Greeks sometime in history. Similarly, there could have been different people who carried E1b already in the Bronze Age. That said, given the spread of E1b in the Balkans/Greece/Italy and areas of Greco-Roman presence I would very much doubt that E1b has spread only recently.

blevins13
01-10-17, 16:00
We should be careful by correlating Illyrian and Albanian. I.e. we still do not have DNA of Illyrians as we do of Myceneans. The Illyrians may very well have been different from Albanians or peoples in the Balkans in general. E1b subclades may have wondered around in the Balkans and may have been picked up by Albanians and Greeks sometime in history. Similarly, there could have been different people who carried E1b already in the Bronze Age. That said, given the spread of E1b in the Balkans/Greece/Italy and areas of Greco-Roman presence I would very much doubt that E1b has spread only recently.

There is no reason to be careful here.....main ancient Ydna of Albanians has been discovered in Croatia.....and guess who lived over there at that time????


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hrvat22
01-10-17, 19:02
There is no reason to be careful here.....main ancient Ydna of Albanians has been discovered in Croatia.....and guess who lived over there at that time????

I said that in Dalmatia among the Serbs(they come 300 years ago to Dalmatia) exist subclade which has a connection with Albania and not from eastern Herzegovina or from allegedly Serbs come to Dalmatia. Very likely they come from Albania to Dalmatia, or Kosovo, Macedonia..

It is very possible that in Croatia exist ancient E-V13 subclade since Illyrians lived in Croatia, but for now I have no information.

If it turns out that E1b originates (subclade CTS5856(4700 year) in the northern Albanian hills this is probably originally Illyrian branch(later subclades) that exist when Illyrians and Illyrian tribes are mentioned.

As far I can see Greek, Serbian and Albanian subclades of E1b are from same branche.

Serbians coming in 7 th century and they have nothing to do with E1b, while for Greeks there is a link just we do not know since. As I said, if some subclades of E1b come to Greece from Albanian hills 4,000 years ago they do not have anything with Illyrians, but if they come at the time of Illyrians or later there are Albanian origin.

For me Albanians are descendants of the Illyrians.

hrvat22
01-10-17, 19:17
We should be careful by correlating Illyrian and Albanian. I.e. we still do not have DNA of Illyrians as we do of Myceneans. The Illyrians may very well have been different from Albanians or peoples in the Balkans in general. E1b subclades may have wondered around in the Balkans and may have been picked up by Albanians and Greeks sometime in history. Similarly, there could have been different people who carried E1b already in the Bronze Age. That said, given the spread of E1b in the Balkans/Greece/Italy and areas of Greco-Roman presence I would very much doubt that E1b has spread only recently.

Illyria is not far from Albania and we know that E1b is autochthonous in that area, certainly Croatian I2a and R1a can not be Illyrian.

If there were any migration in this area or through Italy, still is source of E1b in the hills of Albania (subclade CTS5856)

Garrick
01-10-17, 20:57
We should be careful by correlating Illyrian and Albanian. I.e. we still do not have DNA of Illyrians as we do of Myceneans. The Illyrians may very well have been different from Albanians or peoples in the Balkans in general. E1b subclades may have wondered around in the Balkans and may have been picked up by Albanians and Greeks sometime in history. Similarly, there could have been different people who carried E1b already in the Bronze Age. That said, given the spread of E1b in the Balkans/Greece/Italy and areas of Greco-Roman presence I would very much doubt that E1b has spread only recently.

Reputation.

Proto-Illyrians entered in the Balkans 2000 BC via Bosphorus. Today there is opinion it is possible Illyrians were Western Iranians (it is possible from area Zagros mountains and surroundings). In this picture Illyrians are designated as Iranian people.

https://aleximreh.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/map-showing-ancient-thracian-territory1.jpg?w=640

Zagros mountains or some other area in Western Iran or surrounding Eastern Anatolia, it is not E-V13 area.

About E-V13 generally in the Balkans and whole Europe, a lot of things are not clear today and more knowledge is needed. Fast conclusions usually lead to mistake. E-V13 was present in ancient Greeks, Thracians, Dacians and many other people in Europe. In this thread is noticed spreading E-V13 with R1b-Z2103. I give article about Dacian R1b-Z2103.

Complex analysis can give some responses. This involves research of haplogroups of many tribes in certain epochs in history including Dacians/Free Dacians, Thracians etc. Seminal paper of Lazaridis et al about Minoans and Mycenaeans is top of the science and sets high standards for future studies.

Dianatomia
01-10-17, 21:24
Greek/Illyrian and Thracian are indo-European languages. And so is modern Albanian. E-V13 is certainly not an Indo-European clade. So E-V13 is picked up in the Balkans by Indo-European peoples. It was present there for quite some time, but it is neither proto-Greek nor proto-Illyrian. Illyrians as well as Greeks could have absorbed E-V13 early on and they could have mixed with more E-V13 people later on as well.

Who is to know for sure the Albanian genetic make-up during the 10th century A.D.? Or even before that? We can only speculate. Who is to know that Albanian speakers didn't mix with E-V13 people some time in the Middle Ages?

blevins13
01-10-17, 21:40
Greek/Illyrian and Thracian are indo-European languages. And so is modern Albanian. E-V13 is certainly not an Indo-European clade. So E-V13 is picked up in the Balkans by Indo-European peoples. It was present there for quite some time, but it is neither proto-Greek nor proto-Illyrian. Illyrians as well as Greeks could have absorbed E-V13 early on and they could have mixed with more E-V13 people later on as well.

Who is to know for sure the Albanian genetic make-up during the 10th century A.D.? Or even before that? We can only speculate. Who is to know that Albanian speakers didn't mix with E-V13 people some time in the Middle Ages?

Nothing is proven yet....but the chances that Albanian might be what greek called Illyrian is certain at least genetically. The Albanians have the same ydna lines that has been in Ancient Illyria since 1500 bc.....


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Shetop
01-10-17, 22:01
Approximately 2,800,000 men in Ukraine belong to E-V13 haplogroup.
In Germany the number is around 4,000,000 E-V13 men.
Romania 3,000,000 men.

In Albania and Kosovo together it is 1,800,000 men which is less compared even to France (2,500,000 men).

Number of men with E-V13 in Greece is around 2,500,000 men.

Dianatomia
01-10-17, 22:10
The Albanians have the same ydna lines that has been in Ancient Illyria since 1500 bc.....


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All people in the Balkans do. Why ascribe it exclusively to Albanians?

Ok, so the people whom the Greeks referred to as Illyrians are actually the Illyrians. I see. But by that time many people in the Balkans may have carried E-V13. For all we know, there could have been Greeks tribes with plenty of E-V13 and Greek tribes with less of it. In my view, we should neither rate is as Greek, nor Illyrian. It has simply been picked up by these peoples at some point of time. Just like it has been picked up by the Romans very early on as well.

Dianatomia
01-10-17, 22:12
Approximately 2,800,000 men in Ukraine belong to E-V13 haplogroup.
In Germany the number is around 4,000,000 E-V13 men.
Romania 3,000,000 men.

In Albania and Kosovo together it is 1,800,000 men which is less compared even to France (2,500,000 men).

Number of men with E-V13 in Greece is around 2,500,000 men.

And to think that you have forgotten the Italians.

Shetop
01-10-17, 22:22
And to think that you have forgotten the Italians.

4,000,000.

Garrick
01-10-17, 22:39
Nothing is proven yet....but the chances that Albanian might be what greek called Illyrian is certain at least genetically. The Albanians have the same ydna lines that has been in Ancient Illyria since 1500 bc.....


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No. And new studies as seminal paper of Lazaridis et al give another picture.
...

There are several theories. Plus if we take in consideration Albanian language which is Satem (not Centum) as Balto-Slavic, Dacian and Thracian. And Latin words taken from Romanian. Etc.

According Romanian scientists Albanians are descendants of Free Dacians (Carpi). Carpi have been evicted from their Carpathian and surrounding homeland and it is possible came to today's Albania.

And today in Romania and Moldavia E-V13 is significant. Bassarab dynasty, dynasty of Wallachian kings has mostly E-V13 descendants according study of Martinez-Kruz et al (it is interesting significant percent of descendants of this dynasty has J2b2-M241 haplogroup).

Only complex analysis can give some responses what involves research of haplogroups of many tribes including Thracian, Dacian, Free Dacian etc in certain epochs.

blevins13
01-10-17, 23:31
All people in the Balkans do. Why ascribe it exclusively to Albanians?

Ok, so the people whom the Greeks referred to as Illyrians are actually the Illyrians. I see. But by that time many people in the Balkans may have carried E-V13. For all we know, there could have been Greeks tribes with plenty of E-V13 and Greek tribes with less of it. In my view, we should neither rate is as Greek, nor Illyrian. It has simply been picked up by these peoples at some point of time. Just like it has been picked up by the Romans very early on as well.

We are not talking about other Balkan nations....but Albanians. So if they have the DNA of Ancient people that lived in the area called Illyria the most plausible theory is that Albanians are Illyrians......the rest are speculations that challenge the main theory....we are not talking only about ev13 but the mixture of it with r1b and j2b. Since we know now who the Mycenae and mionian were, it will not take long to figure were the Illyrian came from and their relation to modern Ballkanites....cheers neighbors Greek and Serbs the truth will set you free....


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blevins13
01-10-17, 23:35
No. And new studies as seminal paper of Lazaridis et al give another picture.
...

There are several theories. Plus if we take in consideration Albanian language which is Satem (not Centum) as Balto-Slavic, Dacian and Thracian. And Latin words taken from Romanian. Etc.

According Romanian scientists Albanians are descendants of Free Dacians (Carpi). Carpi have been evicted from their Carpathian and surrounding homeland and it is possible came to today's Albania.

And today in Romania and Moldavia E-V13 is significant. Bassarab dynasty, dynasty of Wallachian kings has mostly E-V13 descendants according study of Martinez-Kruz et al (it is interesting significant percent of descendants of this dynasty has J2b2-M241 haplogroup).

Only complex analysis can give some responses what involves research of haplogroups of many tribes including Thracian, Dacian, Free Dacian etc in certain epochs.

I like your persistence ....with Carpi and other crap....keep up the good job:)


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Yetos
01-10-17, 23:36
Nothing is proven yet....but the chances that Albanian might be what greek called Illyrian is certain at least genetically. The Albanians have the same ydna lines that has been in Ancient Illyria since 1500 bc.....


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Ahmet Davutoglu

said Different things today in Albanian Universities,

And noone dare to stop him or say No you wrong,

Come on man

mehdi Gura vs Illy Gura etc etc
said it clearly

'elhemdulillah'

blevins13
01-10-17, 23:57
Ahmet Davutoglu

said Different things today in Albanian Universities,

And noone dare to stop him or say No you wrong,

Come on man

mehdi Gura vs Illy Gura etc etc
said it clearly

'elhemdulillah'

....we are off topic....and I don't know what are you talking about.....but keep going maybe something good might come from that.....


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Garrick
02-10-17, 01:45
I like your persistence ....with Carpi and other crap....keep up the good job:)


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No crap, but: Karp (Carpi, Carpathian). And today there are places and toponyms in Albania which have root word Karp or similar.

Old Albanian : karpë = cliff, rock

For example Karpen in Kavajë municipality, Albania.

http://i.imgur.com/zPmx5u7.jpg

...
Romanian scientists created serious scientific theory.

blevins13
02-10-17, 02:18
No crap, but: Karp (Carpi, Carpathian). And today there are places and toponyms in Albania which have root word Karp or similar.

Old Albanian : karpë = cliff, rock

For example Karpen in Kavajë municipality, Albania.

http://i.imgur.com/zPmx5u7.jpg

...
Romanian scientists created serious scientific theory.

DNA evidence please.....than I will take you seriously......this is a DNA forum not a fairy tale forum.


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Yetos
02-10-17, 03:03
....we are off topic....and I don't know what are you talking about.....but keep going maybe something good might come from that.....


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nahh

I think you know,
i am sure you know,

Sile
02-10-17, 06:30
We are not talking about other Balkan nations....but Albanians. So if they have the DNA of Ancient people that lived in the area called Illyria the most plausible theory is that Albanians are Illyrians......the rest are speculations that challenge the main theory....we are not talking only about ev13 but the mixture of it with r1b and j2b. Since we know now who the Mycenae and mionian were, it will not take long to figure were the Illyrian came from and their relation to modern Ballkanites....cheers neighbors Greek and Serbs the truth will set you free....
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noricum = east Austria
.
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=-yd1huHoXJwC&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=hallstatt+illyrians&source=bl&ots=o-SiODgOpb&sig=kv5RzE8lO-uQIK71qKJOqV8GtF4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjj752FjtHWAhURPrwKHZZ3B0EQ6AEITzAI#v=on epage&q=hallstatt%20illyrians&f=false
.
Noricum, region of Europe north of what is now Italy, roughly comprising modern central Austria and parts of Bavaria, Ger. Noricum was originally a kingdom controlled by a Celtic confederacy that dominated an earlier Illyrian population.
https://www.britannica.com/place/Noricum
...............
Its area corresponded to the greater part of modern Styria and Carinthia, Upper/Lower Austria west of Vienna, Salzburg, a part of Bavaria, and a part of Slovenia. The original population appears to have consisted of Illyrians, who after the great migration of the Gauls, became subordinate to various Celto-Ligurians tribes, chief amongst them being the Norici (so called after their capital Noreia), who were possibly identical with the Taurisci of Roman sources.[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noricum
..........................................
Noricum
The original population of Noricum (mostly modern day Austria) consisted of Illyrians, who after the great emigration of the Gauls became subordinate to various Celtic tribes. It is in Noricum that we first hear of almost all the Celtic invasions, and was the starting-point of the attacks upon Italia in the early Roman Republic.
............................................
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture
The Hallstatt culture was the predominant Western and Central European culture of Early Iron Age Europe from the 8th to 6th centuries BC, developing out of the Urnfield culture of the 12th century BC (Late Bronze Age) and followed in much of its area by the La Tène culture. It is commonly associated with Proto-Celtic and Celtic populations in the Western Hallstatt zone and with (pre-)Illyrians in the eastern Hallstatt zone.[1]

In the Bronze-age the origins of Illyrians was in Noricum - Eastern Austria
.
.
.
.No more to discuss, it is final

blevins13
02-10-17, 07:45
nahh

I think you know,
i am sure you know,

I spent two min to google the names: but nothing meaningful came up, elaborate, I really don't know Macedonian Original......


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blevins13
02-10-17, 08:08
noricum = east Austria
.
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=-yd1huHoXJwC&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=hallstatt+illyrians&source=bl&ots=o-SiODgOpb&sig=kv5RzE8lO-uQIK71qKJOqV8GtF4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjj752FjtHWAhURPrwKHZZ3B0EQ6AEITzAI#v=on epage&q=hallstatt%20illyrians&f=false
.
Noricum, region of Europe north of what is now Italy, roughly comprising modern central Austria and parts of Bavaria, Ger. Noricum was originally a kingdom controlled by a Celtic confederacy that dominated an earlier Illyrian population.
https://www.britannica.com/place/Noricum
...............
Its area corresponded to the greater part of modern Styria and Carinthia, Upper/Lower Austria west of Vienna, Salzburg, a part of Bavaria, and a part of Slovenia. The original population appears to have consisted of Illyrians, who after the great migration of the Gauls, became subordinate to various Celto-Ligurians tribes, chief amongst them being the Norici (so called after their capital Noreia), who were possibly identical with the Taurisci of Roman sources.[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noricum
..........................................
Noricum
The original population of Noricum (mostly modern day Austria) consisted of Illyrians, who after the great emigration of the Gauls became subordinate to various Celtic tribes. It is in Noricum that we first hear of almost all the Celtic invasions, and was the starting-point of the attacks upon Italia in the early Roman Republic.
............................................
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture
The Hallstatt culture was the predominant Western and Central European culture of Early Iron Age Europe from the 8th to 6th centuries BC, developing out of the Urnfield culture of the 12th century BC (Late Bronze Age) and followed in much of its area by the La Tène culture. It is commonly associated with Proto-Celtic and Celtic populations in the Western Hallstatt zone and with (pre-)Illyrians in the eastern Hallstatt zone.[1]

In the Bronze-age the origins of Illyrians was in Noricum - Eastern Austria
.
.
.
.No more to discuss, it is final

See also .... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vučedol_culture .....before you conclude.


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hrvat22
02-10-17, 08:41
Greek/Illyrian and Thracian are indo-European languages. And so is modern Albanian. E-V13 is certainly not an Indo-European clade. So E-V13 is picked up in the Balkans by Indo-European peoples. It was present there for quite some time, but it is neither proto-Greek nor proto-Illyrian. Illyrians as well as Greeks could have absorbed E-V13 early on and they could have mixed with more E-V13 people later on as well.

Who is to know for sure the Albanian genetic make-up during the 10th century A.D.? Or even before that? We can only speculate. Who is to know that Albanian speakers didn't mix with E-V13 people some time in the Middle Ages?

Maybe people with R1b learned E1b Albanians and others Indo-European language but it does not change fact that E-V13 subclades wich have Albanians, Greeks, Serbs etc.. originates in Albanian hills much further from Greece civilization, and with Serbs they have nothing to do. Or Greece was all the way to Montenegro.??

hrvat22
02-10-17, 08:54
No crap, but: Karp (Carpi, Carpathian). And today there are places and toponyms in Albania which have root word Karp or similar.

Old Albanian : karpë = cliff, rock

For example Karpen in Kavajë municipality, Albania.

http://i.imgur.com/zPmx5u7.jpg

...
Romanian scientists created serious scientific theory.

Albanians have around 20% of Slavs genes, we know that exist records of Red Croatia to Durrës in Albania and Slavic invasions to the Greece, possible that these toponyms are of those newly arrived Slavs.

Part of Croats are Albanian origin and also part of Albanians are Croatian origin. It is genetics there is no hiding.

hrvat22
02-10-17, 09:01
Garrick



According Romanian scientists Albanians are descendants of Free Dacians (Carpi). Carpi have been evicted from their Carpathian and surrounding homeland and it is possible came to today's Albania.

You have genetics and prove it.


And today in Romania and Moldavia E-V13 is significant. Bassarab dynasty, dynasty of Wallachian kings has mostly E-V13 descendants according study of Martinez-Kruz et al (it is interesting significant percent of descendants of this dynasty has J2b2-M241 haplogroup).

What it has to do with E1b source in the Albanian hills.?


Only complex analysis can give some responses what involves research of haplogroups of many tribes including Thracian, Dacian, Free Dacian etc in certain epochs.

And again E1b has a source in Albanian hills.

hrvat22
02-10-17, 09:06
And to think that you have forgotten the Italians.

We're not looking where E1b has 1, 5, 100, or 200 million people, we seek its source and from where is spreads.

hrvat22
02-10-17, 09:14
Garrick


Proto-Illyrians entered in the Balkans 2000 BC via Bosphorus. Today there is opinion it is possible Illyrians were Western Iranians (it is possible from area Zagros mountains and surroundings). In this picture Illyrians are designated as Iranian people.

You have genetics an prove it, Wikipedia is not genetics.


About E-V13 generally in the Balkans and whole Europe, a lot of things are not clear today and more knowledge is needed.

E1b has a source in Albanian hills, if we believe co-administrator of the FTDNA E-M35 project.

And there is no reason for not believeng him.


E-V13 was present in ancient Greeks, Thracians,

Ok, but still E1b has a source in Albanian hills. E1b did not fall from heaven to Greece.

Yetos
02-10-17, 09:56
I spent two min to google the names: but nothing meaningful came up, elaborate, I really don't know Macedonian Original......


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search,

I found them at 30 sec

Mehdi Gurra
Ylli Gurra,

they 'speak' about the origin of Albanians
gone where the wind blows

blevins13
02-10-17, 10:56
search,

I found them at 30 sec

Mehdi Gurra
Ylli Gurra,

they 'speak' about the origin of Albanians
gone where the wind blows

Ok I found them......and I am disappointed Makedonian Original....this is your counter argument!!!!!???? Some idiots statements....try harder.

Yetos
02-10-17, 14:25
Ok I found them......and I am disappointed Makedonian Original....this is your counter argument!!!!!???? Some idiots statements....try harder.

me too,
seems like Albanian scientists accepted easily such 'wind blow words'
instead of critisizing such,
or it is diplomacy and policy to accept whatever.
even genetics,

Anyway i do not share 'such' genetics.
but I was waiting more from Albanian scholars,
except if it is true, or fully accepted.

blevins13
02-10-17, 15:23
me too,
seems like Albanian scientists accepted easily such 'wind blow words'
instead of critisizing such,
or it is diplomacy and policy to accept whatever.
even genetics,

Anyway i do not share 'such' genetics.
but I was waiting more from Albanian scholars,
except if it is true, or fully accepted.

The persons that you mentioned above are not scholars......these are religious fanatics financed to promote certain agendas.... not worth to be mentioned in these respected forum.


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Bergin
02-10-17, 16:30
Yetos, Blevins - please don't miss the point.
Just discovered that i am E V13. For me it means that few thousand years ago, a man was born with a mutation. Quite a lot of albanians, greeks, italians, serbs, croatian and many more descent from that single man.

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blevins13
02-10-17, 17:02
Yetos, Blevins - please don't miss the point.
Just discovered that i am E V13. For me it means that few thousand years ago, a man was born with a mutation. Quite a lot of albanians, greeks, italians, serbs, croatian and many more descent from that single man.

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Congratulations, where are you from....which city??


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Bergin
02-10-17, 17:03
Born in Tirana actually

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hrvat22
02-10-17, 17:10
Yetos, Blevins - please don't miss the point.
Just discovered that i am E V13. For me it means that few thousand years ago, a man was born with a mutation. Quite a lot of albanians, greeks, italians, serbs, croatian and many more descent from that single man.

Problem is that Serbs do not know that they share E1b subclades with Albanians. They talk about this mutation as old-Balkanic.

They can not accept fact that they and Albanian origin. All Orthodox population of former Yugoslavia after departure of the Turks become Serbs, and now it's visible in genetics.

Which faith Albanians were before coming Turks to the Balkans???. Logically they were Orthodox with smaller part of Catholics towards Montenegro.

If is epicenter of E1b in Kosovo, who built and visited all those monasteries..logically people with E1b or today's Albanias.

It is unlikely that Serb( Slavic genes) came(every Sunday) in those monasteries from southern Serbia.

Possibly some monastery was built by some Serbian leader, but I think that these monasteries were probably built in Byzantine times for local Orthodoxy peoples today's Albanians.

Shetop
02-10-17, 17:16
Problem is that Serbs do not know that they share E1b subclades with Albanians. They talk about this mutation as old-Balkanic.

They can not accept fact that they and Albanian origin.

4 million Germans also share E1b subclades with Albanians. Are they of Albanian origin too?

Bergin
02-10-17, 17:23
I dont think e1b is of albanian origin. Neither is r1b(or a) based on a modern nation

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Bergin
02-10-17, 17:50
The only special connection between albania and ev13 is that this haplogroup is the dominant one there. In germany, italy, romania and others, even with higher absoluye numbers, it still is a minority haplogroup.

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hrvat22
02-10-17, 18:31
4 million Germans also share E1b subclades with Albanians. Are they of Albanian origin too?

If E1b in Germans is 3,000 years old obviously is not Albanian origin, but there are and other branches of E1b and not just branch with source from Albania. I'm talking about branch CTS5856.

If is branch CTS5856 in the Germans, they come from Albanian hills, when.. needs to be determined and then bring conclusion. If subclades are 500 years old in Germans and come from Balkans to Germany thing is clear.

Only needs to see which are original Greeks branches and Albanian branches and their migration in Balkan area and then bring conclusion.

hrvat22
02-10-17, 18:44
I dont think e1b is of albanian origin. Neither is r1b(or a) based on a modern nation

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And I do not think that E1b is Albanian origin because Albanians did not live in Africa.

E1b with subclade or branch CTS5856 is Albanian origin, whether it is been Illyrian etc. I have to call it Albanian because it is in today's Albanians.

Illyrians had dozens of tribes, then it's better to say today's Albanians.

Who will now look which E1b belong to which tribe when they were all mixed in the territory of Illyria and today's Albania. It will perhaps known for 20 years.

hrvat22
02-10-17, 18:50
The only special connection between albania and ev13 is that this haplogroup is the dominant one there.


Subclade CTS5856 for which co-administrator of the FTDNA E-M35 project says that probably comes from border between Albania, Montenegro and Serbia.

It is not just a dominant, but it comes from northern Albania (​Subclade CTS5856)


https://postimg.org/image/4qxnhdqsb/

Shetop
02-10-17, 18:53
If is branch CTS5856 in the Germans, they come from Albanian hills

Yes, the branch of E-V13 found in Germany is exactly CTS5856.

The same as you are I'm also interested in the topic of haplogroups and genealogy, otherwise I would not be writing here. But there are a lot of of details and inputs one has to take into account when the goal is to make right conclusions. One day you may understand what I'm saying.

blevins13
02-10-17, 19:05
Born in Tirana actually

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Where is your grandfather from?


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Bergin
02-10-17, 19:08
Paternal - mirdite (gheg)

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hrvat22
02-10-17, 19:17
Yes, the branch of E-V13 found in Germany is exactly CTS5856.

The same as you are I'm also interested in the topic of haplogroups and genealogy, otherwise I would not be writing here. But there are a lot of of details and inputs one has to take into account when the goal is to make right conclusions. One day you may understand what I'm saying.

So what's the problem?

When they explore more detailed Germans subclades of E1b CTS5856, we will make a logical conclusion.
Subclades behind CTS5856 may have come to Germany before 4700, 3000, 2000, 500 years. We do not know yet, only we know that they were originally came from Albanian hills.

Bergin
02-10-17, 19:22
Hrvat, how do you now that cts5856 originated in albanian hills. Is there any new paper out that i ignore?

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hrvat22
02-10-17, 19:25
Hrvat, how do you now that cts5856 originated in albanian hills. Is there any new paper out that i ignore?

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Subclade CTS5856 for which co-administrator of the FTDNA E-M35 project says that probably comes from border between Albania, Montenegro and Serbia.



https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3toPDBv-MLKc04zdEd6MDJlaTQ/view


If you have different information tell me and I will respect that .:good_job:

Bergin
02-10-17, 19:28
This is new to me, first thanks for sharing. Eupedia has a different version i think, more north, and strong bronze age expansion. I hope some of the administrators here will explain us better

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PaschalisB
02-10-17, 19:30
This thread was supposed to be about greek subclades, but as always some random albanian comes up and messes it up.

Bergin
02-10-17, 19:35
Sorry man, it is just that genetics dont know borders. Anyway back to topic

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hrvat22
02-10-17, 19:42
This is new to me, first thanks for sharing. Eupedia has a different version i think, more north, and strong bronze age expansion. I hope some of the administrators here will explain us better

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I see that on Serbian forum, it is writte by co-administrator of FTDNA E-M35 project.

Although it was not finall there should be no reason not believe him.


https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-3b/about/background

Wheal
02-10-17, 19:44
Very interesting. I copied your maps and put them in MSPublisher and added fade to one map. the difference in location was really noticeable as the first map faded and the second map could be seen with both colored markers. Thank you.

hrvat22
02-10-17, 19:50
This thread was supposed to be about greek subclades, but as always some random albanian comes up and messes it up.

We work for you and now you're angry.

Dianatomia
02-10-17, 19:56
If E1b in Germans is 3,000 years old obviously is not Albanian origin, but there are and other branches of E1b and not just branch with source from Albania. I'm talking about branch CTS5856.

If is branch CTS5856 in the Germans, they come from Albanian hills, when.. needs to be determined and then bring conclusion. If subclades are 500 years old in Germans and come from Balkans to Germany thing is clear.

Only needs to see which are original Greeks branches and Albanian branches and their migration in Balkan area and then bring conclusion.

How can you determine it comes from the Albanian hills? Perhaps an earlier branch came from i.e. Thrace or Thessaly. What does that supposed to be? Are Albanians Thracians or Greeks? And how about J2? Perhaps the first branch comes from Anatolia? If there is a way of determining such a thing. Does this mean everyone Turk or an Anatolian?

If 'only' Illyrians had EV-13, and classical Greeks, Thracians, Romans had none of it, and it can be proven that Albanian is somehow Illyrian, then I will grand you it's Albanian.

But mere speculation that one clade comes from the Albanian hills means little.

hrvat22
02-10-17, 20:51
Dianatomia (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/30553-Dianatomia)


How can you determine it comes from the Albanian hills?

Subclade CTS5856 for which co-administrator of the FTDNA E-M35 project says that probably comes from border between Albania, Montenegro and Serbia.


Perhaps an earlier branch came from i.e. Thrace or Thessaly

Possible, but I have not heard anything about it yet.



Are Albanians Thracians or Greeks?

Are Albanians Croats or Serbs?, or are Chinese?


And how about J2?

Do some research and let us know.


Perhaps the first branch comes from Anatolia?

Maybe it came from Azerbaijan?


If there is a way of determining such a thingIf it is from Albanian hills probably it was discovered in those people that live on Albanian hills,
they did not find it in the stones.


Does this mean everyone Turk or an Anatolian?

If some mutation came with Turks to Balkans it's the original Turkish mutation, where is source of the same needs to be seen and then make a conclusion.

It's like when I'm talking about Croats and that they came from White Croatia ...their original mutation is I-S17250 and all carriers of same mutation are White Croatian origin.

Serbs, Turks, Albanians, Greeks, Bosniaks, Slovenes, Bulgarians, Russians, Ukrainians, Rumanians, Croats etc. with this mutation are White Croatian origin and originate from one person where are only mentioned White Croats, and today's genetics only confirms it for Croats(that they come from southeast of Poland)

..once again.. only for Croats and for no one else.

This is logic, and if it is not logic then from White Croatia and one common ancestor to Balkan coming Slovenians, Greeks, Albanians, Turkish, Bulgarian, Croat, Bosniak, Serbian, Romanian, Montenegrin and medieval Tribals, Dukljans, Zetans, Paganians, Vlachs, Morlachs, Zahumians, Travunians, Dalmatians etc..

blevins13
02-10-17, 20:52
How can you determine it comes from the Albanian hills? Perhaps an earlier branch came from i.e. Thrace or Thessaly. What does that supposed to be? Are Albanians Thracians or Greeks? And how about J2? Perhaps the first branch comes from Anatolia? If there is a way of determining such a thing. Does this mean everyone Turk or an Anatolian?

If 'only' Illyrians had EV-13, and classical Greeks, Thracians, Romans had none of it, and it can be proven that Albanian is somehow Illyrian, then I will grand you it's Albanian.

But mere speculation that one clade comes from the Albanian hills means little.

It seems that E-v13 was not very common in Mycenaean times in Peloponnesus....I guess this is why Lazaridis did not find any.....looking forward for the Balkan puzzle to come together....whatever the outcome...but for some it might be tears.


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blevins13
02-10-17, 20:54
Subclade CTS5856 for which co-administrator of the FTDNA E-M35 project says that probably comes from border between Albania, Montenegro and Serbia.



https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3toPDBv-MLKc04zdEd6MDJlaTQ/view


If you have different information tell me and I will respect that .:good_job:

Great info....I also appreciated the R1b mix.


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Yetos
02-10-17, 21:50
Yetos, Blevins - please don't miss the point.
Just discovered that i am E V13. For me it means that few thousand years ago, a man was born with a mutation. Quite a lot of albanians, greeks, italians, serbs, croatian and many more descent from that single man.

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bergin

1) the oldest known V-13 found in Balkans is around 5-6th century BC in today Bulgaria, Thracian tombs,

2) the older E found nearby is about 2000 BC in Konya Turkey,
I do not know if it was V-13 mutation.

3) Dienekes using the mutations posibilities age
suggested the maritime entrance around 2000- 1500 BC
via peloponese

4) Italian, did not remember which University, if I am correct Padova,
made a combo of E and PC1 and suggested as an Hypothesis that existed in black sea parts of Thrace
around 3-4 millenium BC,

These are all attested about E and V-13 of Balkans.

it is still a mystery,
and most certain spread from East Balkans

Bergin
02-10-17, 21:52
Wasnt there a pre ev13 found in dalmatia from the neolithic (reich lab)?

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Yetos
02-10-17, 21:53
Wasnt there a pre ev13 found in dalmatia from the neolithic (reich lab)?

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never heard such.
maybe I am wrong,
but I did not heard such thing

Wheal
02-10-17, 21:57
This is the combined map.
9371

blevins13
02-10-17, 22:04
never heard such.
maybe I am wrong,
but I did not heard such thing

Yep it was....https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/05/09/135616.full.pdf


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Bergin
02-10-17, 22:08
never heard such.
maybe I am wrong,
but I did not heard such thing

I think is on the supplementary table (Exel) from the Mathieson paper.
sample ID: I3948 (zemunica cave, croatia). Nearly 5800-6000 BC.

PaschalisB
02-10-17, 22:19
We work for you and now you're angry.

Not angry at all.

Bergin
02-10-17, 22:20
Btw, thanks for the maps paschalis

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blevins13
02-10-17, 22:37
I think is on the supplementary table (Exel) from the Mathieson paper.
sample ID: I3948 (zemunica cave, croatia). Nearly 5800-6000 BC.

Do you have a link to the full paper no payment. ...


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Bergin
02-10-17, 22:42
The link is not enough cause it has to recognize the license

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Bergin
02-10-17, 22:44
But the arxiv one is ok. Supplementary material/ supplememtary table

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Garrick
02-10-17, 23:16
Albanians have around 20% of Slavs genes, we know that exist records of Red Croatia to Durrës in Albania and Slavic invasions to the Greece, possible that these toponyms are of those newly arrived Slavs.

Part of Croats are Albanian origin and also part of Albanians are Croatian origin. It is genetics there is no hiding.

Are you Albanian from Croatia? It is not offense Albanians are good entrepreneurs in Croatia.

What you say could be possible. Albanian ancestors lived in Carpathian and beyond (Romania, Moldavia, Ukraine, Slovakia). For example Beskids mountains is possible Albanian word bjeshkë (what is commonly known, and there is in Wikipedia). As ancestors of Croats possible lived in similar region (Western Ukraine-Southern Poland), it is possible that they mixed.

So when Free Dacian Carpi arrived in Mat area in today's Albania it is possible they had partly Croatian blood.

Theoretically it is possible because geographical location. Take in consideration that Albanian (original words, without Romanian Latin and other loans) has a closeness with Balto-Slavic.

But I don't think that in time of Free Dacians we can speak about Croats as separated Slavic entity.



For me Albanians are descendants of the Illyrians.

It is same to say that for you earth is flat.

But what if earth is not flat?

Austrian scholars Matzinger and Scumacher claim Albanians have nothing with Illyrians.

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/austrian-scholars-leave-albania-lost-for-words

And to whom to trust more. They are University researchers and authorities, you are not their level, surely.

Conclusion based on your opinion and above mentioned Austrian scholars:

Albanians are not descendants of Illyrians.


I have to call it Albanian because it is in today's Albanians.


There is nothing further from the truth than this claim. Speculation that one clade comes from the Albanian hills has no significance.

If someone sees today's borders and population and he thinks it was always was same he is completely wrong. Borders change and population, too. There are x examples in the world where population is changed in relatively short period. For example if you go to Mauritus you will see Hindu population is the most numerous, 200 years ago no one Hindus lived there.

Someone can see Slavic toponyms in Albania. Except for the central part (area Mat, Drac and surrounding) Albania is full of Slavic toponyms.

http://www.kroraina.com/seli_sna/selish_slavicnames2.gif

And what if some researcher looked at situation from the epoch of Emperor Dusan, he coud think all E-V13 subclades are Serbian, hills are Serbian (and whole today's Albania).

Serbia in epoch of Dusan Emperor, red color.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/91/39/52/9139527eba134b105203dc4c29123c10.jpg

(I have no intention of magnification of Emperor Dusan, I'm not interested in that, I just gave an example for the wrong logic).
...

Dianatomia gave right analysis.

Garrick
02-10-17, 23:28
I dont think e1b is of albanian origin. Neither is r1b(or a) based on a modern nation

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You are right, it is not Albanian origin.

Of course, no Illyrian origin.

I read long time ago some Albanian websites which linked E-V13 with Nimrod, Old Egyptians etc but it is not real.

And some Russians wrote it is Illyrian marker, but we know today, it is not.

There are many unknowns about E-V13, you can see in this forum, some prominent members of forum say spreading of E-V13 in Europe is still a mystery, but I am convinced that with new findings and scientific studies knowledge about E-V13 will rise.

blevins13
03-10-17, 00:37
Are you Albanian from Croatia? It is not offense Albanians are good entrepreneurs in Croatia.

What you say could be possible. Albanian ancestors lived in Carpathian and beyond (Romania, Moldavia, Ukraine, Slovakia). For example Beskids mountains is possible Albanian word bjeshkë (what is commonly known, and there is in Wikipedia). As ancestors of Croats possible lived in similar region (Western Ukraine-Southern Poland), it is possible that they mixed.

So when Free Dacian Carpi arrived in Mat area in today's Albania it is possible they had partly Croatian blood.

Theoretically it is possible because geographical location. Take in consideration that Albanian (original words, without Romanian Latin and other loans) has a closeness with Balto-Slavic.

But I don't think that in time of Free Dacians we can speak about Croats as separated Slavic entity.



It is same to say that for you earth is flat.

But what if earth is not flat?

Austrian scholars Matzinger and Scumacher claim Albanians have nothing with Illyrians.

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/austrian-scholars-leave-albania-lost-for-words

And to whom to trust more. They are University researchers and authorities, you are not their level, surely.

Conclusion based on your opinion and above mentioned Austrian scholars:

Albanians are not descendants of Illyrians.

It depends how you define people, blood or words....may be lost for words....but blood tells a different story.....different from your Carpi theory.


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Yetos
03-10-17, 06:36
I think is on the supplementary table (Exel) from the Mathieson paper.
sample ID: I3948 (zemunica cave, croatia). Nearly 5800-6000 BC.


Yes I found it

E-M78 V-68

hrvat22
03-10-17, 08:19
.
Garrick (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/28714-Garrick)







(I have no intention of magnification of Emperor Dusan, I'm not interested in that, I just gave an example for the wrong logic).

Yes, but Serbs as slavs coming in 7th century to the Balkans, E1b which have Albanians does not come with slavs.


Are you Albanian from Croatia? It is not offense Albanians are good entrepreneurs in Croatia.

I am Croatian.


What you say could be possible. Albanian ancestors lived in Carpathian and beyond (Romania, Moldavia, Ukraine, Slovakia). For example Beskids mountains is possible Albanian word bjeshkë (what is commonly known, and there is in Wikipedia). As ancestors of Croats possible lived in similar region (Western Ukraine-Southern Poland), it is possible that they mixed.

Prove it with genetics and no problem.


So when Free Dacian Carpi arrived in Mat area in today's Albania it is possible they had partly Croatian blood.



It is same to say that for you earth is flat.


Croats are mutations from beginning of century, and original haplotypes for them are I2a and R1a.

Who are today's descendants of White Croats in Ukraine and Poland?, part of today Ukrainians and Poles, I can not call them all Croats.
I can not call Albanias Illyrians but I can say that people with E1b in Albania are probably of Illyrian origin if genetics says otherwise i respected that.


Austrian scholars Matzinger and Scumacher claim Albanians have nothing with Illyrians.

That he looked at today's Albanian genetics he would certainly have different conclusion.


Speculation that one clade comes from the Albanian hills has no significance.

But in this area they are all Albanian subclades with that one clade as a source.

Bergin
03-10-17, 11:05
Yes I found it

E-M78 V-68

I actually don't know how to call it (or even interpret).
It is E-M78 and it has the L618 mutation.
Downstream the L618 there is only E-V13 (as by YTree at least).
But this sample is not E-V13 as this mutation did not occur yet.

Maybe E-L618 (V13*)

Trojet
03-10-17, 14:14
I actually don't know how to call it (or even interpret).
It is E-M78 and it has the L618 mutation.
Downstream the L618 there is only E-V13 (as by YTree at least).
But this sample is not E-V13 as this mutation did not occur yet.
Maybe E-L618 (V13*)

We'll find out once the raw data is released. But he is most likely L618+ and V13-
If he is V13+ or has nearly all (50+) mutations representing L618 subclade (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/), in theory he could be the "ancestor" or a not too distant cousin of all modern E-V13 men, which would suggest V13 mutation arose in the same general area. But IMHO, he most likely represents an extinct E-L618 line.

Garrick
03-10-17, 19:18
.
I can say that people with E1b in Albania are probably of Illyrian origin if genetics says otherwise i respected that.


Illyrian? Which sample? Scientific paper, authors. From which epoch? 1,2 century AD, or BC or what.

Did you read papers about genetic genealogy? Scientists are very clear, if someone looks today's population and he wants to make conclusions about past it is waste of time. Croats say: zgubidan. Because populations changed, populations are changing, (and in future populations will change).

So you didn't give us no one finding about Albanians as descendant of Illyrians, only your own speculations. You didn't prove your hypothesis. Sorry, but Austrian scientists Matzinger and Scumacher are relevant in relation to you, they are scientists and authorities. According them Albanians are not descendants of Illyrians.

hrvat22
03-10-17, 21:38
Illyrian? Which sample? Scientific paper, authors. From which epoch? 1,2 century AD, or BC or what.

Did you read papers about genetic genealogy? Scientists are very clear, if someone looks today's population and he wants to make conclusions about past it is waste of time. Croats say: zgubidan. Because populations changed, populations are changing, (and in future populations will change).

So you didn't give us no one finding about Albanians as descendant of Illyrians, only your own speculations. You didn't prove your hypothesis. Sorry, but Austrian scientists Matzinger and Scumacher are relevant in relation to you, they are scientists and authorities. According them Albanians are not descendants of Illyrians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians


Archaeologists from the former Yugoslavia highlighted the continuity between the Bronze and succeeding Iron Age (especially in regions such as Donja Dolina, central Bosnia-Glasinac, and northern Albania (Mat river basin)), ultimately developing the so-called "autochthonous theory" of Illyrian genesis.


The Bronze Age lasts from 2000 to 750 BC. A


northern Albania (Mat river basin



https://postimg.org/image/4qxnhdqsb/

Subclade CTS5856 4700 years old, north Albania.

All mutations behind CTS5856 exist in Albania and Albanians.

Obviously all Albanian mutations are in the area of Albania and wider old around 4000 to 100 years.

27,5% Albanians and 47% Albanians from Kosovo with E1b CTS5856, live in south Balkan 4700 to 100 years (their ancestors).

Are they part of Ilirians or not..??

When we see how old are types of R1b and J2a in Albanias and Albania then we will tell how much of today's Albanians are Illyrian origin.

Shetop
03-10-17, 21:48
All mutations behind CTS5856 exist in Albania and Albanians.

Could you specify all the mutations behind CTS5856?

Garrick
03-10-17, 23:11
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians









https://postimg.org/image/4qxnhdqsb/

Subclade CTS5856 4700 years old, north Albania.

All mutations behind CTS5856 exist in Albania and Albanians.

Obviously all Albanian mutations are in the area of Albania and wider old around 4000 to 100 years.

27,5% Albanians and 47% Albanians from Kosovo with E1b CTS5856, live in south Balkan 4700 to 100 years (their ancestors).

Are they part of Ilirians or not..??


You didn't give ancient samples, obviously you have no genetic evidence from ancient epoches, you did nothing.

No Illyrian. You are in mistake. But I will explain you detailed, enjoy, nice time in Croatia.

blevins13
04-10-17, 00:37
You didn't give ancient samples, obviously you have no genetic evidence from ancient epoches, you did nothing.

No Illyrian. You are in mistake. But I will explain you detailed, enjoy, nice time in Croatia.

Hrvat22 waste no time with Garrick....he is a lost case.... first he sad Albanians are from Caucas and came with Turks.... now some other Crap......


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Trojet
04-10-17, 01:02
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians
https://postimg.org/image/4qxnhdqsb/
Subclade CTS5856 4700 years old, north Albania.
All mutations behind CTS5856 exist in Albania and Albanians.
Obviously all Albanian mutations are in the area of Albania and wider old around 4000 to 100 years.
27,5% Albanians and 47% Albanians from Kosovo with E1b CTS5856, live in south Balkan 4700 to 100 years (their ancestors).
Are they part of Ilirians or not..??
When we see how old are types of R1b and J2a in Albanias and Albania then we will tell how much of today's Albanians are Illyrian origin.

Albanian J2 is actually overwhelmingly J2b2-L283 (J-L283). On average it makes up 20-25% of Albanian Y-DNA. The same haplogroup was found in Bronze Age Dalmatia ca. 1550 BC.
Haplogroup R1b makes up 20-25% of Albanian Y-DNA as well. R1b-Z2103 was found in the Vucedol Culture ca. 2725 BC.
http://www.gjenetika.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/ancientDNAFinal-1-905x509.jpg

Source: The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/09/19/135616) (samples: I4331, I3499, I3948)

So all three major Albanian Y-DNA haplogroups in ancient DNA have been found in Western Balkans (Illyrian territory).

Sile
04-10-17, 07:33
You didn't give ancient samples, obviously you have no genetic evidence from ancient epoches, you did nothing.
No Illyrian. You are in mistake. But I will explain you detailed, enjoy, nice time in Croatia.
Since Illyrians came from the east-austrian and slovenian lands in the bronze-age and we know that the dalmatians where from East-austria ( Noricum )
.
https://s20.postimg.org/c7898rvr1/illy_delma.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
.
One needs to investigate if the western Balkans before the arrival of Illyrians from the north was what ancient Greeks state, that is, there where thracians there..........Herodous did say the thracians are the most populous people in the world after the Indians.
i am referring to late bronze age and early iron -age

hrvat22
04-10-17, 07:39
Could you specify all the mutations behind CTS5856?


https://postimg.org/image/4qxnhdqsb/

hrvat22
04-10-17, 07:52
Hrvat22 waste no time with Garrick....he is a lost case.... first he sad Albanians are from Caucas and came with Turks.... now some other Crap......


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This is also case in the topic on Croatian origin. After hundred and fifty years of myth that all in the Balkans are Serb origin, when it needs to prove with genetics, now it's a panic.

They talk that Albanians come from Caucas 500 years ago, but main haplotype in the Albanians is 4,000 years old in the same place. They do not understand that this is myth.

hrvat22
04-10-17, 08:01
Albanian J2 is actually overwhelmingly J2b2-L283 (J-L283). On average it makes up 20-25% of Albanian Y-DNA. The same haplogroup was found in Bronze Age Dalmatia ca. 1550 BC.
Haplogroup R1b makes up 20-25% of Albanian Y-DNA as well. R1b-Z2103 was found in the Vucedol Culture ca. 2725 BC.
http://www.gjenetika.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/ancientDNAFinal-1-905x509.jpg

Source: The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/09/19/135616) (samples: I4331, I3499, I3948)

So all three major Albanian Y-DNA haplogroups in ancient DNA have been found in Western Balkans (Illyrian territory).

That's what I thought. In the end genes will say everything, there is no hiding.
Some will cry afterwards but we have respect genetic truth.

Shetop
04-10-17, 10:32
https://postimg.org/image/4qxnhdqsb/

There is no other way to say it - you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Johane Derite
04-10-17, 11:06
There is no other way to say it - you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

The first serbian tree (with some albanian last names in it) is from the serbian DNA project data. EV13 is the second largest haplogroup for
serbs according to the serbian dna project.

https://i.imgur.com/ztZjLA8.jpg

This is the EV13 tree from the albanian bloodlines project:

https://i.imgur.com/JvgXe2L.jpg

It is a very basic concept. If EV13 was found in the balkans that is 7400 years old, this means it is indigenous and predates ANY SLAV migration/invasion into the balkans.

It is 100% clear that it is not a slav haplogroup, thats for sure at least.

Shetop
04-10-17, 11:31
It is a very basic concept.

I understand the concept.
hrvat22 wrote, I quote "All mutations behind CTS5856 exist in Albania and Albanians" . This is simply not true. There are 9 known CTS5856 subbranches and unknown number of unknown branches. So far, only 2 of those 9 are found in Albanians Z5017 and Z5018.

These are the direct CTS5856 subbranches which are not found among Albanians yet: A9723, Y19509, Z38899, Y16729, S7461, Z16663, S3003.

Johane Derite
04-10-17, 12:28
I understand the concept.
hrvat22 wrote, I quote "All mutations behind CTS5856 exist in Albania and Albanians" . This is simply not true. There are 9 known CTS5856 subbranches and unknown number of unknown branches. So far, only 2 of those 9 are found in Albanians Z5017 and Z5018.

These are the direct CTS5856 subbranches which are not found among Albanians yet: A9723, Y19509, Z38899, Y16729, S7461, Z16663, S3003.

I didn't see that quote of his in particular, nonetheless its clear he means those that are share by serbs are clearly the same as those of the albanians, meaning the
same paternal ancestor.


Can you produce me a link to these because some of them aren't showing up on YFULL for me:

"These are the direct CTS5856 subbranches which are not found among Albanians yet: A9723, Y19509, Z38899, Y16729, S7461, Z16663, S3003"

hrvat22
04-10-17, 12:39
I understand the concept.
hrvat22 wrote, I quote "All mutations behind CTS5856 exist in Albania and Albanians" . This is simply not true. There are 9 known CTS5856 subbranches and unknown number of unknown branches. So far, only 2 of those 9 are found in Albanians Z5017 and Z5018.
These are the direct CTS5856 subbranches which are not found among Albanians yet: A9723, Y19509, Z38899, Y16729, S7461, Z16663, S3003.



BY20093 Albanian
Z38456 Albanian
Z16988 Albanian
FGC33625 Albanian
FGC11450 Albanian
L241 Albanian
Z16661 Albanian

All have an ancestor mutation CTS5856.

Subbranches which are not found among Albanians yet: A9723, Y19509, Z38899, Y16729, S7461, Z16663, S3003 they are possible left Balkans 4, 3 thousand years ago and today have nothing to do with Albanians except that they come from common ancestors from Albania (subclade CTS5856).

Do Serbs have these mutations?

hrvat22
04-10-17, 12:45
The first serbian tree (with some albanian last names in it) is from the serbian DNA project data. EV13 is the second largest haplogroup for
serbs according to the serbian dna project.



https://i.imgur.com/ztZjLA8.jpg

This is the EV13 tree from the albanian bloodlines project:

https://i.imgur.com/JvgXe2L.jpg

It is a very basic concept. If EV13 was found in the balkans that is 7400 years old, this means it is indigenous and predates ANY SLAV migration/invasion into the balkans.

It is 100% clear that it is not a slav haplogroup, thats for sure at least.

Possibly only subclade PH1246 for now has nothing to do with Albanias.

hrvat22
04-10-17, 12:49
Nonetheless its clear he means those that are share by serbs are clearly the same as those of the albanians, meaning the
same paternal ancestor.

That's right. Brothers on the male line.

Shetop
04-10-17, 13:13
Can you produce me a link to these because some of them aren't showing up on YFULL for me:

"These are the direct CTS5856 subbranches which are not found among Albanians yet: A9723, Y19509, Z38899, Y16729, S7461, Z16663, S3003"

L618-V13 NGS Project E-V13 Draft Tree (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1D9WaPOZn_0l5GKtqXR0PbbxEir2o1t0e2HO-SJ2GboI/edit?pli=1#gid=2080530255)

Shetop
04-10-17, 13:15
Subbranches which are not found among Albanians yet: A9723, Y19509, Z38899, Y16729, S7461, Z16663, S3003

Do Serbs have these mutations?

No, so far they don't.

blevins13
04-10-17, 16:14
This is also case in the topic on Croatian origin. After hundred and fifty years of myth that all in the Balkans are Serb origin, when it needs to prove with genetics, now it's a panic.

They talk that Albanians come from Caucas 500 years ago, but main haplotype in the Albanians is 4,000 years old in the same place. They do not understand that this is myth.

No myth here..... this is a lie created in the last 200 years to support expansion agendas.....


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Yaan
04-10-17, 21:36
:thinking:

No place for such Albanian and Croatian propaganda here, it is all about truth and Genetics

hrvat22
05-10-17, 09:05
You have genetics and refute us and propaganda.

All we are saying for now is true and if genetics say otherwise we will respect that.

ihype02
05-10-17, 13:43
I understand the concept.
hrvat22 wrote, I quote "All mutations behind CTS5856 exist in Albania and Albanians" . This is simply not true. There are 9 known CTS5856 subbranches and unknown number of unknown branches. So far, only 2 of those 9 are found in Albanians Z5017 and Z5018.

These are the direct CTS5856 subbranches which are not found among Albanians yet: A9723, Y19509, Z38899, Y16729, S7461, Z16663, S3003.

This one is found.

blevins13
05-10-17, 15:21
:thinking:

No place for such Albanian and Croatian propaganda here, it is all about truth and Genetics

So what is your truth than....


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Yaan
05-10-17, 22:15
So what is your truth than....


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Thanks for asking :)

1. Albanian is not Ilyrian
2. Croatian is not Ilyrian
3. E-V13 is 100 % not Albanian, haplogroups are not held by modern nationalities
4. I2a Din Souht is 100% not Croatian, haplogroups are not held by modern nationalities
5. E-V13 is ancient and uber European
6. I2a Din ( especially North) is really connected with Slavic people
7. Looks have nothing to do with Y Haplogroup, Male line just says where the father of the father of the father of the father etc. maybe kind ,sort of lived
8. Croats and Albanians are not the fathers of Serbs and Bulgarians and Greeks and Vlachs

I could wirte a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot more

:)

Yetos
05-10-17, 22:28
Thanks for asking :)

1. Albanian is not Ilyrian
2. Croatian is not Ilyrian
3. E-V13 is 100 % not Albanian, haplogroups are not held by modern nationalities
4. I2a Din Souht is 100% not Croatian, haplogroups are not held by modern nationalities
5. E-V13 is ancient and uber European
6. I2a Din ( especially North) is really connected with Slavic people
7. Looks have nothing to do with Y Haplogroup, Male line just says where the father of the father of the father of the father etc. maybe kind ,sort of lived
8. Croats and Albanians are not the fathers of Serbs and Bulgarians and Greeks and Vlachs

I could wirte a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot more

:)

except No 7, let me disagree due to endogamous through millenias
where other genes, than Y or mt, are made as primary of sexual selection, make a special characteristic of the Hg (Y or mt) through time

The rest are part of truth.

Dibran
05-10-17, 22:35
Thanks for asking :)

1. Albanian is not Ilyrian
2. Croatian is not Ilyrian
3. E-V13 is 100 % not Albanian, haplogroups are not held by modern nationalities
4. I2a Din Souht is 100% not Croatian, haplogroups are not held by modern nationalities
5. E-V13 is ancient and uber European
6. I2a Din ( especially North) is really connected with Slavic people
7. Looks have nothing to do with Y Haplogroup, Male line just says where the father of the father of the father of the father etc. maybe kind ,sort of lived
8. Croats and Albanians are not the fathers of Serbs and Bulgarians and Greeks and Vlachs

I could wirte a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot more

:)

Whether Albanian is or is not Illyrian has not even reached a verdict given the lack of evidence for or against. So, your hastiness to declare a lack of a connection is on equally weak legs as those who claim we do. Lets wait for evidence to surface before we make any bold claims, shall we?

Additionally, while haplogroups are of course not tied specifically to any nationalities, there are specific clades of haplogroups that are only found amongst certain nationalities. Whilst all people of a haplogroup are related in the ancient past, certain mutations only found in certain ethnic groups are clearly examples/evidence of coalescence of said lineage among said ethnic group. Otherwise you would not find mutations unique to different ethnic groups if they had not developed among them.

Everyone knows that nationality is a social construct. That does not change the fact that haplogroups develop mutations differently depending on the ethnic group they are present.

Also, E-V13 predates the first classical civilizations in the Balkans to begin with. E-V13 most certainly participated in many Balkan civilizations. I do not see why unique mutations found among ethnic groups are not evidence of that already.

Regardless of whether or not Albanians have anything to do with Illyrians, Albanians possess a branch of J2b2 descended of the line they found in Croatia any ways.

The science is not going to prove any unitary support for any Balkan peoples wet dreams of grandeur.

The truth of the matter is every nation is a mixed back patrilineally speaking.

There are clades of E-V13 that only Albanians belong to. There are clades of E-V13 that slavs belong to. etc. So there clearly are branches of lineages that can be assigned to nationalities given the current data.

Yaan
05-10-17, 23:45
Whether Albanian is or is not Illyrian has not even reached a verdict given the lack of evidence for or against. So, your hastiness to declare a lack of a connection is on equally weak legs as those who claim we do. Lets wait for evidence to surface before we make any bold claims, shall we?

Additionally, while haplogroups are of course not tied specifically to any nationalities, there are specific clades of haplogroups that are only found amongst certain nationalities. Whilst all people of a haplogroup are related in the ancient past, certain mutations only found in certain ethnic groups are clearly examples/evidence of coalescence of said lineage among said ethnic group. Otherwise you would not find mutations unique to different ethnic groups if they had not developed among them.

Everyone knows that nationality is a social construct. That does not change the fact that haplogroups develop mutations differently depending on the ethnic group they are present.

Also, E-V13 predates the first classical civilizations in the Balkans to begin with. E-V13 most certainly participated in many Balkan civilizations. I do not see why unique mutations found among ethnic groups are not evidence of that already.

Regardless of whether or not Albanians have anything to do with Illyrians, Albanians possess a branch of J2b2 descended of the line they found in Croatia any ways.

The science is not going to prove any unitary support for any Balkan peoples wet dreams of grandeur.

The truth of the matter is every nation is a mixed back patrilineally speaking.

There are clades of E-V13 that only Albanians belong to. There are clades of E-V13 that slavs belong to. etc. So there clearly are branches of lineages that can be assigned to nationalities given the current data.
Now, now respect to you unlike the Albanian who claims to be Croat you actually have logic and common sense!

Ofc E-V13 is linked to Ancient Balkan Civilisations you are 100% right, but by no means Albanians are the only descendents of them ;)

Ofc Albanians have a lot to do with iliriyans, but Albanians just like Croats or Serbs or Bulgarians or Irish or Chinese are a mixture of a lot of things.

I do things J2b2 have more to do with Ilirians then E-V13, but both are connected ofc so is R1b-L23 etc.etc :)

Yaan
05-10-17, 23:47
except No 7, let me disagree due to endogamous through millenias
where other genes, than Y or mt, are made as primary of sexual selection, make a special characteristic of the Hg (Y or mt) through time

The rest are part of truth.

Yes ofc :) But I still believe Y haplogroup have nothing to do with looks, I know J2a and E-V13 guys who look Nordic or Slavic and R1a Z280 and I1 guys who look well quite dark and Med to say the least :)

Dibran
06-10-17, 01:03
Now, now respect to you unlike the Albanian who claims to be Croat you actually have logic and common sense!
Ofc E-V13 is linked to Ancient Balkan Civilisations you are 100% right, but by no means Albanians are the only descendents of them ;)
Ofc Albanians have a lot to do with iliriyans, but Albanians just like Croats or Serbs or Bulgarians or Irish or Chinese are a mixture of a lot of things.
I do things J2b2 have more to do with Ilirians then E-V13, but both are connected ofc so is R1b-L23 etc.etc :)
Thank you. However, logic/common sense and ethnicities do not go hand in hand. This or that person is not illogical because they are Albanian or Greek or Slavic. They are illogical because as all humans tend, they let their desire drive their mental processes.
I never thought it was exclusively Albanian. However it is most dominant in Albanians. Even if the common ancestor of all of them lived 1500 years ago. The lineage dominates them today. I agree though. Saying E-V13 is exclusively Albanian is like saying R1a is exclusively Slavic. There are so many factors that go into it. We have to understand however, most people are laymen. Because of this things are labeled with broad strokes.
Albanians like other ethnic groups are a mix of different things. I don't think anyone with a brain would actually think any ethnic group is pure and unitary in origin.
I actually believe l Albanians(as in Proto-Albanians) are a lot older than(but not unlike)Illyrians. Yet more like the Vlachs; leaving less of an impact in antiquity, with the Middle Ages being our point of expansion. It's actually a standing theory among albanologists in Austria. my belief is R1b-L23 was the chief lineage of Proto Albanians, who upon assimilation and expansion, absorbed Illyrians, Greeks, Romans and Slavs, becoming modern Albanians. I think the founder effect of E-V13 and J2b2 are not necessarily indicative of Proto Albanians, but rather Illyrians, Greeks, Romans and in part Thracians, absorbed by Proto Albanians. As I understand it all E-V13 Albanian men have one common ancestor who lived 1500 years ago. This could indicate the lineage was far less prominent at one point in time. R1b still has a even distribution region to region.
While we know we can't assign tribes to one lineage(as I am sure they had many) I would agree J2b2 would have probably been Illyrian, but given geographic expansion and distribution, Im sure the lineage was shared by many tribes.
As for E-V13 many claim it descends in large part from Slaves of classical civilizations. I cannot confirm or deny this. However, there is a common story among Albanians(at least my father tells me) that wearing the Albanian skull cap is part of a tradition whereby it marks a symbol of our oppression, that it is removed when we are "free". I cannot confirm or deny this. Perhaps some fellow Albanians can chime in.
I find the connection interesting if it's true. Given E-V13 is so dominant. Surely the slaves outnumbered their masters upon collapse of their kingdoms. Culture is fluid. Like everything it's in constant evolution and flux.
I think all the Balkans inherited DNA from classical groups. Some more of one tribe over the other.
Old nations have past. No one is directly related to any of them. We are all merely evolving ethnic groups making ourselves anew generation to generation, due to many different circumstances. Some within our control some outside our control.

Garrick
06-10-17, 01:27
Hrvat22 waste no time with Garrick....he is a lost case.... first he sad Albanians are from Caucas and came with Turks.... now some other Crap......


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You are in illusion if you think so but you can think what want, who cares.

Because Caucasus or any other region is mentioned in particular context for very old Proto populations, where any haplogroup could have origin and it is not wrong with that.

I never said that Albanians came with Turks and you can read all my posts you will never find this.

It is not correct but again who cares, but you will be surprised if I say to you that any Albanians give me support, and appreciate my efforts.

If you want be serious, and really want to know it is better to read next.

Nik
06-10-17, 01:39
@Dibran

Albanians are just a mix of people residing in the Balkans that after the Slavs were pushed from all sides and were roughly concentrated where you find today Albanian speakers. Nothing older about it.

All in all, E-V13 and J2b2 could be called "more Illyrian" in the stricter sense as they're mostly found among mountain clans, while in the same time those mountain clans are "more typically Albanian" than the more evenly spread R1b. Obviously this is all crap and I don't believe in it so don't quote me on that.

I'd be interested to know the highland/lowland distribution of E-V13 in Albania and Greece specifically, but also Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia, etc. as we more or less have some info on Montenegro.

As for the hat and slaves story, sorry but that is crap even as an option to simply consider. Remember there's Albanians like myself that come from Montenegro and Herzegovina and brought a separate Albanian dialect (and mostly replaced the previous ones), so there's no chance we came as E-V13 or J2b2 Illyrians and got Albanised by a bunch of local shepherds. If anything what constitutes today of Albania was full of Vlachs/Romanised locals before.

I hope to see more Greeks and Albanians testing for deeper subclades and solve part of the puzzle concerning this haplogroup as the tables are turning and it's becoming more likely to have been a Northern intruder rather than Southern (Thessaly, Peloponnesus, u name it).

It even makes sense to me that if true, at least the Dorians were an ethnos created North of Greece, therefore culturally and genetically similar to the "barbaric" Illyro-Thracians and got civilized rather than created a Hellenic civilization (Mycenaeans included) in Greece.

Garrick
06-10-17, 01:41
hrvat22 (or Albanian from Croatia but it doesn't matter)

Now first context. Without context someone know nothing. For example somoene who would study haplogroups todays inhabitants of todays Hungary or Turkey and don’t know context, he or she would be mislead and have drawn entirely wrong conclusions. Without a context someone would be in his fantasies, which is not even amateurish or childish.

Based on the contemporary scientific papers (no Serbian, I very rarely use Serbian sources); only facts

Albanians (Shqiptarët) speakers of Albanian language (Gjuha Shqipe) came to the areas of present day Albania in 6-8 century.

Contemporary science solved almost all enigmas of Albanian (Shqiptarët) homeland, there are only two regions (areas) from which the Albanians (Shqiptarët) could came to the areas of present day Albania in 6th-8th century.

It means Albanians (Shqiptarët) when arrived to Albania are not descendants of Illyrians.

When arrived to areas of present-day Albania in 6-8 century Albanians (Shqiptarët) could found local inhabitants:

Greeks

Romanized Illyrians

Descedents of Romans and other people (from the areas of present day Italy)

It is possible some Aromanians, Slavs, if they arrived in that time, some little ethnic groups etc.

It means that Albanians (Shqiptarët) assimilated local Romanized Iliryans.

As is Serbs, Croats, Slovenes, Bosnians assimilated Romanized Illirians.

Answer for you, Croats have no Albanian blood, Illyrians which Croats assimilated (for example in Dalmatia) have nothing with Albanians (Shqiptarët) who came to Albania in 6th-8th century.

Every nation assimilated Romanized Illyrians how many of them found when this nation came.

Why Romanized? Because Illyrans adopted Latin language till 3rd century, they ceased to exist as political entity.
...

In genetic terms contemporary Albanians have genetics of

Shqiptarët who came in the areas of present day Albania in 6-8 century and

all of above mentioned local people who they found and assimilated.

It is same for every nation who arrive and settle any territory and assimilate locals.

The dilemma of science has remained which area is right homeland of Shqiptarët of these two above mentioned areas. How we are interested in genetics everything will be more precisely known when genetic studies will be made for period 2-6 century in only two possible regions which Albanians (Shqiptarët) settled then and from which they left and after that came to areas of present day Albania.

...
Now when we know context we will understand much easier what genetic genealogy says, about possible movement of haplogroup CTS5856 or any other (too much to insert now).

Nik
06-10-17, 01:55
@Garrick

Are you a bot?

I said earlier that my family just like many came from Herzegovina and brought a distinct Albanian dialect with them. How did those mysterious Albanians of yours manage to assimilate us so far up North while we're sorrounded by Vlachs and Slavs?

Balkan population movements happened mostly from North to South in that era, so we pushed each other South from Bosnia and Herzegovina down to Peloponnesus, as you can see in the mutations of many many Greeks belonging to V13 or even J2b2 for that matter. Not to mention that Albanian has a layer of Latin words since BC while you're stuck with 8th century AD and Free Carpi/Bastarnae or whatever you came up with recently.

Im surprised Sile hasn't showed up yet. And of course dear Angela to delete my posts and issue some infractions for derailing the topic.

Garrick
06-10-17, 02:04
It is a very basic concept. If EV13 was found in the balkans that is 7400 years old, this means it is indigenous and predates ANY SLAV migration/invasion into the balkans.

It is 100% clear that it is not a slav haplogroup, thats for sure at least.

Derite
But what this E-V13 (which subclade) has with what you write.

For example Proto-Illyrians came to the Balkans 2000 BC via Bosphorus, they didn't have this haplogroup in their homeland (it is possible western Iran, eastern Anatolia or surrounding).

E-V13 had completely different movements than people assumed until recently.

If you want such logic I2a is much older in Balkans than E-V13.

Garrick
06-10-17, 02:18
@Garrick

Are you a bot?

I said earlier that my family just like many came from Herzegovina and brought a distinct Albanian dialect with them. How did those mysterious Albanians of yours manage to assimilate us so far up North while we're sorrounded by Vlachs and Slavs?

Balkan population movements happened mostly from North to South in that era, so we pushed each other South from Bosnia and Herzegovina down to Peloponnesus, as you can see in the mutations of many many Greeks belonging to V13 or even J2b2 for that matter. Not to mention that Albanian has a layer of Latin words since BC while you're stuck with 8th century AD and Free Carpi/Bastarnae or whatever you came up with recently.

Im surprised Sile hasn't showed up yet. And of course dear Angela to delete my posts and issue some infractions for derailing the topic.

No, and of course, for all can be found explanation.

Your discussion is very interesting and different from any nationalistic crap which we can see here.

And all is very important for topic because context, who reads all of these posts he or she will have much better picture.

I agree with you that movement of E-V13 was from north.

Actually until recently people thought very mistaken about E-V13 what means how many this matter is unknown and how matter is fast changing.

Dibran
06-10-17, 02:35
@Dibran
Albanians are just a mix of people residing in the Balkans that after the Slavs were pushed from all sides and were roughly concentrated where you find today Albanian speakers. Nothing older about it.
All in all, E-V13 and J2b2 could be called "more Illyrian" in the stricter sense as they're mostly found among mountain clans, while in the same time those mountain clans are "more typically Albanian" than the more evenly spread R1b. Obviously this is all crap and I don't believe in it so don't quote me on that.
I'd be interested to know the highland/lowland distribution of E-V13 in Albania and Greece specifically, but also Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia, etc. as we more or less have some info on Montenegro.
As for the hat and slaves story, sorry but that is crap even as an option to simply consider. Remember there's Albanians like myself that come from Montenegro and Herzegovina and brought a separate Albanian dialect (and mostly replaced the previous ones), so there's no chance we came as E-V13 or J2b2 Illyrians and got Albanised by a bunch of local shepherds. If anything what constitutes today of Albania was full of Vlachs/Romanised locals before.
I hope to see more Greeks and Albanians testing for deeper subclades and solve part of the puzzle concerning this haplogroup as the tables are turning and it's becoming more likely to have been a Northern intruder rather than Southern (Thessaly, Peloponnesus, u name it).
It even makes sense to me that if true, at least the Dorians were an ethnos created North of Greece, therefore culturally and genetically similar to the "barbaric" Illyro-Thracians and got civilized rather than created a Hellenic civilization (Mycenaeans included) in Greece.
Perhaps. I don't know much account Albanian clans from Bosnia. I did recently buy tribes of Albania which I haven't had a chance to read yet. Never knew Albanians were as far as Herzegovina honestly lol. I am American born and my father came here at 10. So we know more or less about history concerning our clan in Diber.
I have no doubt that culturally we are descendants of local tribes. My theory stems from that of Austrian Albanilogists that suggests Albanians were a small nomadic paleobalkan tribe that took part in many Balkan civilizations. Even predating Illyrians. And that they were located somewhere around the district of Mat.
All theories at this point. No concrete evidence from a linguistic and historical perspective. However DNA is largely showing that Albanians are overwhelmingly natives.
I have even heard wild theories suggesting Albanians and Vlachs branches off from Dacians.
Time will tell I suppose.

I am doing FGC Yelite myself. I tested Z283 and negative downstream all major branches at LivingDNA. doing Y67 to to see if I have matches in the meantime. Though there is a likely chance if LivingDNA is right, I could be a rare clade under Z283.

Some people from Mirdita claim the clan my father claims we descend were hired Condottieri from Italy by Skanderbeg. I imagine if there is any weight to this claim, my Ydna should have matches in Italy on y37 level?

Garrick
06-10-17, 03:00
Perhaps. I don't know much account Albanian clans from Bosnia. I did recently buy tribes of Albania which I haven't had a chance to read yet. Never knew Albanians were as far as Herzegovina honestly lol. I am American born and my father came here at 10. So we know more or less about history concerning our clan in Diber.

I have no doubt that culturally we are descendants of local tribes. My theory stems from that of Austrian Albanilogists that suggests Albanians were a small nomadic paleobalkan tribe that took part in many Balkan civilizations. Even predating Illyrians. And that they were located somewhere around the district of Mat.

All theories at this point. No concrete evidence from a linguistic and historical perspective. However DNA is largely showing that Albanians are overwhelmingly natives.

I have even heard wild theories suggesting Albanians and Vlachs branches off from Dacians.

Time will tell I suppose.

I appreciate your posts. When I have time I will explain detailed.

Johane Derite
06-10-17, 03:22
Based on the contemporary scientific papers (no Serbian, I very rarely use Serbian sources); only facts

Albanians (Shqiptarët) speakers of Albanian language (Gjuha Shqipe) came to the areas of present day Albania in 6-8 century.

Contemporary science solved almost all enigmas of Albanian (Shqiptarët) homeland, there are only two regions (areas) from which the Albanians (Shqiptarët) could came to the areas of present day Albania in 6th-8th century.


This is an outright fiction. Its pure propaganda created out of thin air that conveniently places albanians in the balkans later than the very well documented time of slav arrival.

you claim your very scientific non serbian sources for facts but fail to produce them, lets see them shall we?

its extremely well established that albanian has to be in the balkans before the first millenium BC because of many linguistic cognates and dialect shifts that match perfectly with well documemted ones that happened in Latin. im on phone atm i will post the actual sources for this so you cant spread absurd claims about albanians coming to albanian homeland after slavs.
the gheg and tosk dialects have been proven to have been formed at least 2000 years ago because of features that gheg shares with latin and tosk shares with greek.

for all those non serbs lurking or witnessing this thread i must inform you that the serbian state for at least a hundred years has terrorised the albanian population with outright fictions like this. it claimed albanians spoke a non indo european lamguage and came from caucauses during ottoman empire. the serbian state could not foresee that albanian would be proven to be an indo european language and humiliatingly exposing this regime parroted lie. DNA and increasingly better technology will only continue to dismantle fictions such as the one you pushed here. The fact that you intentionally omit where this non albanian homeland is after hinting at only two possibilities shows how dishonest your intentions are.

Garrick
06-10-17, 04:11
This is an outright fiction. Its pure propaganda created out of thin air that conveniently places albanians in the balkans later than the very well documented time of slav arrival.

you claim your very scientific non serbian sources for facts but fail to produce them, lets see them shall we?

its extremely well established that albanian has to be in the balkans before the first millenium BC because of many linguistic cognates and dialect shifts that match perfectly with well documemted ones that happened in Latin. im on phone atm i will post the actual sources for this so you cant spread absurd claims about albanians coming to albanian homeland after slavs.
the gheg and tosk dialects have been proven to have been formed at least 2000 years ago because of features that gheg shares with latin and tosk shares with greek.

for all those non serbs lurking or witnessing this thread i must inform you that the serbian state for at least a hundred years has terrorised the albanian population with outright fictions like this. it claimed albanians spoke a non indo european lamguage and came from caucauses during ottoman empire. the serbian state could not foresee that albanian would be proven to be an indo european language and humiliatingly exposing this regime parroted lie. DNA and increasingly better technology will only continue to dismantle fictions such as the one you pushed here. The fact that you intentionally omit where this non albanian homeland is after hinting at only two possibilities shows how dishonest your intentions are.

Albanians who know me longer know that I don't use Serbian sources, it is true.

Of course I will gave scientific papers where it is written, but it is not for this thread, in any other more appropriate thread, here I only wanted to talk about context because, you can agree, if someone don't know context and discuss about haplogroups his conclusions will be completely wrong, what I will show in first next.

What I have with nationalism, if you want know I was Tito fan, appreciated his courage against Stalin, appreciated brotherhood and unity of all people of ex Yugoslavia, I loved federal state, now I love idea of federal Europe, but for this it is doesn't matter, everyone can be whatever he or she wants.

hrvat22
06-10-17, 08:10
Thanks for asking :)

1. Albanian is not Ilyrian
2. Croatian is not Ilyrian
3. E-V13 is 100 % not Albanian, haplogroups are not held by modern nationalities
4. I2a Din Souht is 100% not Croatian, haplogroups are not held by modern nationalities
5. E-V13 is ancient and uber European
6. I2a Din ( especially North) is really connected with Slavic people
7. Looks have nothing to do with Y Haplogroup, Male line just says where the father of the father of the father of the father etc. maybe kind ,sort of lived
8. Croats and Albanians are not the fathers of Serbs and Bulgarians and Greeks and Vlachs

I could wirte a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot more

:)


Now all you said proof with historical records and genetics.

You can not, it mean that you are in myth and everything you say is a lie.

I wait your evidence.

hrvat22
06-10-17, 08:15
Now, now respect to you unlike the Albanian who claims to be Croat you actually have logic and common sense!

Ofc E-V13 is linked to Ancient Balkan Civilisations you are 100% right, but by no means Albanians are the only descendents of them ;)

Ofc Albanians have a lot to do with iliriyans, but Albanians just like Croats or Serbs or Bulgarians or Irish or Chinese are a mixture of a lot of things.

I do things J2b2 have more to do with Ilirians then E-V13, but both are connected ofc so is R1b-L23 etc.etc :)

Refute me with genetic and historical records when I do not speak logically.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31539-Genetics-confirm-migration-of-White-Croats-to-Croatia

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25801-Sarmatians-Serbs-Croats-and-I2a2/page20?p=520335#post520335


I'm waiting for you..hahahahhaah

hrvat22
06-10-17, 08:20
You are in illusion if you think so but you can think what want, who cares.

Because Caucasus or any other region is mentioned in particular context for very old Proto populations, where any haplogroup could have origin and it is not wrong with that.

I never said that Albanians came with Turks and you can read all my posts you will never find this.

It is not correct but again who cares, but you will be surprised if I say to you that any Albanians give me support, and appreciate my efforts.

If you want be serious, and really want to know it is better to read next.

Much of the Serbs are of Albanian origin, this is undeniable.

You have genetics and historical records and refute that.

You just love to talk.

hrvat22
06-10-17, 08:28
hrvat22 (or Albanian from Croatia but it doesn't matter)

Now first context. Without context someone know nothing. For example somoene who would study haplogroups todays inhabitants of todays Hungary or Turkey and don’t know context, he or she would be mislead and have drawn entirely wrong conclusions. Without a context someone would be in his fantasies, which is not even amateurish or childish.

Based on the contemporary scientific papers (no Serbian, I very rarely use Serbian sources); only facts

Albanians (Shqiptarët) speakers of Albanian language (Gjuha Shqipe) came to the areas of present day Albania in 6-8 century.

Contemporary science solved almost all enigmas of Albanian (Shqiptarët) homeland, there are only two regions (areas) from which the Albanians (Shqiptarët) could came to the areas of present day Albania in 6th-8th century.

It means Albanians (Shqiptarët) when arrived to Albania are not descendants of Illyrians.

When arrived to areas of present-day Albania in 6-8 century Albanians (Shqiptarët) could found local inhabitants:

Greeks

Romanized Illyrians

Descedents of Romans and other people (from the areas of present day Italy)

It is possible some Aromanians, Slavs, if they arrived in that time, some little ethnic groups etc.

It means that Albanians (Shqiptarët) assimilated local Romanized Iliryans.

As is Serbs, Croats, Slovenes, Bosnians assimilated Romanized Illirians.

Answer for you, Croats have no Albanian blood, Illyrians which Croats assimilated (for example in Dalmatia) have nothing with Albanians (Shqiptarët) who came to Albania in 6th-8th century.

Every nation assimilated Romanized Illyrians how many of them found when this nation came.

Why Romanized? Because Illyrans adopted Latin language till 3rd century, they ceased to exist as political entity.
...

In genetic terms contemporary Albanians have genetics of

Shqiptarët who came in the areas of present day Albania in 6-8 century and

all of above mentioned local people who they found and assimilated.

It is same for every nation who arrive and settle any territory and assimilate locals.

The dilemma of science has remained which area is right homeland of Shqiptarët of these two above mentioned areas. How we are interested in genetics everything will be more precisely known when genetic studies will be made for period 2-6 century in only two possible regions which Albanians (Shqiptarët) settled then and from which they left and after that came to areas of present day Albania.

...
Now when we know context we will understand much easier what genetic genealogy says, about possible movement of haplogroup CTS5856 or any other (too much to insert now).

You anything concrete refute, you just talk.

There exist genetic and historical records, use it as evidence and refute me.

Or go on these topics and refute me.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31539-Genetics-confirm-migration-of-White-Croats-to-Croatia

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25801-Sarmatians-Serbs-Croats-and-I2a2/page20?p=520335#post520335

There is no one there to refute me.

It says that I'm right and I'm telling the truth.

hrvat22
06-10-17, 08:34
Albanians who know me longer know that I don't use Serbian sources, it is true.

Of course I will gave scientific papers where it is written, but it is not for this thread, in any other more appropriate thread, here I only wanted to talk about context because, you can agree, if someone don't know context and discuss about haplogroups his conclusions will be completely wrong, what I will show in first next.

What I have with nationalism, if you want know I was Tito fan, appreciated his courage against Stalin, appreciated brotherhood and unity of all people of ex Yugoslavia, I loved federal state, now I love idea of federal Europe, but for this it is doesn't matter, everyone can be whatever he or she wants.

Talk talk, talk, take a genetics and historical records and begin refute as.

Diomedes
06-10-17, 10:12
Balkan people and their fights in electronic fora. Is humanity crying and losing hope?

blevins13
06-10-17, 10:15
Yaan, you pretend truth, when here most of us are throwing hypotheses based on Genetics know so far. Here you have many truth related to many discussions but not to this one.


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hrvat22
06-10-17, 12:58
Balkan people and their fights in electronic fora. Is humanity crying and losing hope?

Take genetics and historical records and refute my claims, this is not Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek forum.

All I said for now is based on something (genetics, historical records, people who deal with certain haplogroups) your arguments are talk,talk,talk.

What are you specifically refute and with which argument.

Nor do I see genetics, historical records, etc. just what I see is talk, talk, talk and then is
Balkan people and their fights

Dibran
06-10-17, 15:16
This is an outright fiction. Its pure propaganda created out of thin air that conveniently places albanians in the balkans later than the very well documented time of slav arrival.

you claim your very scientific non serbian sources for facts but fail to produce them, lets see them shall we?

its extremely well established that albanian has to be in the balkans before the first millenium BC because of many linguistic cognates and dialect shifts that match perfectly with well documemted ones that happened in Latin. im on phone atm i will post the actual sources for this so you cant spread absurd claims about albanians coming to albanian homeland after slavs.
the gheg and tosk dialects have been proven to have been formed at least 2000 years ago because of features that gheg shares with latin and tosk shares with greek.

for all those non serbs lurking or witnessing this thread i must inform you that the serbian state for at least a hundred years has terrorised the albanian population with outright fictions like this. it claimed albanians spoke a non indo european lamguage and came from caucauses during ottoman empire. the serbian state could not foresee that albanian would be proven to be an indo european language and humiliatingly exposing this regime parroted lie. DNA and increasingly better technology will only continue to dismantle fictions such as the one you pushed here. The fact that you intentionally omit where this non albanian homeland is after hinting at only two possibilities shows how dishonest your intentions are.

No serious historians or linguists support the Serbian wet dream of the Caucasus theory. I wouldn't worry too much. Those who have common sense regarding the matter don't entertain the idea of that theory. Those that do usually have an agenda or don't care to do serious research.

Dibran
06-10-17, 15:20
Balkan people and their fights in electronic fora. Is humanity crying and losing hope?

Whether Greeks consider themselves Balkan or not, they're right there with the rest of us when it comes to ignorance and pushing an agenda. Realistically the truth will not conform to either peoples delusions of grandeur. The truth will prove what DNA has been proving from the getgo; we are all a mixed bag. It is like baking a cake with different proportions of ingredients. There is no denying attempts of some to create unsupported unverifiable claims regarding the origins of Albanians. Regardless of how one feels about Albanians. I may not like Serbs as a collective political entity, but I do not let this determine how I conduct myself respectfully or treat individual Serbs who conduct themselves respectfully as well. Every man and woman is responsible for themselves.

Genetics have already proved we are all intertwined. Despite our religious, linguistic, and cultural associations, we are made of the same building blocks of antiquitous tribes.

hrvat22
06-10-17, 16:00
Whether Greeks consider themselves Balkan or not, they're right there with the rest of us when it comes to ignorance and pushing an agenda. Realistically the truth will not conform to either peoples delusions of grandeur. The truth will prove what DNA has been proving from the getgo; we are all a mixed bag. It is like baking a cake with different proportions of ingredients. There is no denying attempts of some to create unsupported unverifiable claims regarding the origins of Albanians. Regardless of how one feels about Albanians. I may not like Serbs as a collective political entity, but I do not let this determine how I conduct myself respectfully or treat individual Serbs who conduct themselves respectfully as well. Every man and woman is responsible for themselves.

Genetics have already proved we are all intertwined. Despite our religious, linguistic, and cultural associations, we are made of the same building blocks of antiquitous tribes.

What kind of connection has a mutation I2a I-S17250 with Bulgarians.?
Yes, the same exists in Bulgarians, but Croats does not come from White Bulgaria in 7 century.

E1b CTS5856, source of CTS5856 is in Albanian hills, its descendants live there for 4700 years and today they call themselves Albanias.

What E1b's have to do with Croats. Croats coming to the Balkans in the 7th century.

https://postimg.org/image/4qxnhdqsb/

Croats with E1b CTS5856 more accurately with subclades Z16988, Z38456, FGC11450, S2972, Z16661, L241, FGC33625 are of Albanian origin by the male line.

Unlike Bugars, Greeks and Serbs we in Croatia have dozens of records about coming of the Vlach from east and southe Balkan (we do not hide it).

Vlahs brought Albanian (E1b) genetics to Croatia, very likely and J2a and R1b types.

It is interesting that Vlachs bring and I2a with White Croatian subclade I-S17250 and other R1a types, which means that migration of Croats went to Greece and after a thousand years they moving to Croatia with Vlach name and mix genetic( E1b,J2a,I2a,R1a,R1b)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians#Genetic_studies

And another interesting thing is that we in Croatia do not have Vlach, we have Serbians.

As far I know, there are one or two records about arrival of Serbs to Croatia and for Vlach 20 times more.

Where are Croatian Vlach disappeared??, they just change their name but genetics remained same becouse genetic does not change name.

And about the Croats who have gone to Orthodoxy we will not talk, let genetics speak, hahaha.

Yaan
06-10-17, 16:11
Thank you. However, logic/common sense and ethnicities do not go hand in hand. This or that person is not illogical because they are Albanian or Greek or Slavic. They are illogical because as all humans tend, they let their desire drive their mental processes.
I never thought it was exclusively Albanian. However it is most dominant in Albanians. Even if the common ancestor of all of them lived 1500 years ago. The lineage dominates them today. I agree though. Saying E-V13 is exclusively Albanian is like saying R1a is exclusively Slavic. There are so many factors that go into it. We have to understand however, most people are laymen. Because of this things are labeled with broad strokes.
Albanians like other ethnic groups are a mix of different things. I don't think anyone with a brain would actually think any ethnic group is pure and unitary in origin.
I actually believe l Albanians(as in Proto-Albanians) are a lot older than(but not unlike)Illyrians. Yet more like the Vlachs; leaving less of an impact in antiquity, with the Middle Ages being our point of expansion. It's actually a standing theory among albanologists in Austria. my belief is R1b-L23 was the chief lineage of Proto Albanians, who upon assimilation and expansion, absorbed Illyrians, Greeks, Romans and Slavs, becoming modern Albanians. I think the founder effect of E-V13 and J2b2 are not necessarily indicative of Proto Albanians, but rather Illyrians, Greeks, Romans and in part Thracians, absorbed by Proto Albanians. As I understand it all E-V13 Albanian men have one common ancestor who lived 1500 years ago. This could indicate the lineage was far less prominent at one point in time. R1b still has a even distribution region to region.
While we know we can't assign tribes to one lineage(as I am sure they had many) I would agree J2b2 would have probably been Illyrian, but given geographic expansion and distribution, Im sure the lineage was shared by many tribes.
As for E-V13 many claim it descends in large part from Slaves of classical civilizations. I cannot confirm or deny this. However, there is a common story among Albanians(at least my father tells me) that wearing the Albanian skull cap is part of a tradition whereby it marks a symbol of our oppression, that it is removed when we are "free". I cannot confirm or deny this. Perhaps some fellow Albanians can chime in.
I find the connection interesting if it's true. Given E-V13 is so dominant. Surely the slaves outnumbered their masters upon collapse of their kingdoms. Culture is fluid. Like everything it's in constant evolution and flux.
I think all the Balkans inherited DNA from classical groups. Some more of one tribe over the other.
Old nations have past. No one is directly related to any of them. We are all merely evolving ethnic groups making ourselves anew generation to generation, due to many different circumstances. Some within our control some outside our control.


Thank you for your intelligent and well written resume. really well said, I do not agree that E-V13 is from slaves( I agree with everything else), but as you said we could not be sure, maybe it is, who knows :)

Dibran
06-10-17, 16:15
What kind of connection has a mutation I2a I-S17250 with Bulgarians.?
Yes, the same exists in Bulgarians, but Croats does not come from White Bulgaria in 7 century.

E1b CTS5856, source of CTS5856 is in Albanian hills, its descendants live there for 4700 years and today they call themselves Albanias.

What E1b's have to do with Croats. Croats coming to the Balkans in the 7th century.

https://postimg.org/image/4qxnhdqsb/

Croats with E1b CTS5856 more accurately with subclades Z16988, Z38456, FGC11450, S2972, Z16661, L241, FGC33625 are of Albanian origin by the male line.

Unlike Bugars, Greeks and Serbs we in Croatia have dozens of records about coming of the Vlach from east of the Balkans (we do not hide it).

Vlahs brought Albanian (E1b) genetics to Croatia, very likely and J2a and R1b types.

It is interesting that Vlachs bring and I2a with White Croatian subclade I-S17250 and other R1a types, which means that migration of Croats went to Greece and after a thousand years they moving to Croatia with Vlach name and mix genetic( E1b,J2a,I2a,R1a,R1b)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians#Genetic_studies

I do not disagree with you that certain clades are in fact Albanian. but putting all J2 and E1b under one Albanian umbrella is not true. Everyone would need deeper Y tests to see what their branch of J2b or E1b is, before declaring it Albanian or other. As I understand it Albanians belong to a handful of E-V13 clades, not all of them. So one would need deeper testing. Though I do not doubt there being a higher propensity of this lineage turning up among Albanians, and therefore increased likelihood that those in the Balkans of this haplogroup may be more likely than not, part of the Albanian branches of that haplogroup. It would all depend on matches, TMRCA and other factors. Regardless all E-V13 is related if you go back far enough.

Also, regarding your last point, I can see that scenario. Many of the early Slavic tribes were themselves of varied and mixed origins. Invading pelopenessus and moving to and fro. I do not doubt it could be possible. Hell, there is a likelihood My line was a Romanized byzantine Slav. Unless my ancestors really did migrate from Italy, then maybe Gothic or Vandali. I am doing Yelite so I should know shortly. Though my family have been in Diber Okshtun for the lst 400 years, before which oral history claims we migrated from Orosh Mirdita. Oral history of this village claims our family of descent were hired condottieri by Skanderbeg in the 1400s. I tested Z283 at livingDNA and negative downstream all major tested branches(all accept basal Z282). We all come from somewhere. If my ancestor was condottieri he could be anything from East Germanic, Norman, Viking, assuming in the case of Italy regarding much of R1a.

hrvat22
06-10-17, 16:20
I do not disagree with you that certain clades are in fact Albanian. but putting all J2 and E1b under one Albanian umbrella is not true. Everyone would need deeper Y tests to see what their branch of J2b or E1b is, before declaring it Albanian or other. As I understand it Albanians belong to a handful of E-V13 clades, not all of them. So one would need deeper testing. Though I do not doubt there being a higher propensity of this lineage turning up among Albanians, and therefore increased likelihood that those in the Balkans of this haplogroup may be more likely than not, part of the Albanian branches of that haplogroup. It would all depend on matches, TMRCA and other factors. Regardless all E-V13 is related if you go back far enough.

Also, regarding your last point, I can see that scenario. Many of the early Slavic tribes were themselves of varied and mixed origins. Invading pelopenessus and moving to and fro. I do not doubt it could be possible. Hell, there is a likelihood My line was a Romanized byzantine Slav. Unless my ancestors really did migrate from Italy, then maybe Gothic or Vandali. I am doing Yelite so I should know shortly. Though my family have been in Diber Okshtun for the lst 400 years, before which oral history claims we migrated from Orosh Mirdita. Oral history of this village claims our family of descent were hired condottieri by Skanderbeg. I tested Z283 at livingDNA and negative downstream all major tested branches(all accept basal Z282). We all come from somewhere. If my ancestor was condottieri he could be anything from East Germanic, Norman, Viking, assuming in the case of Italy regarding much of R1a.



And another interesting thing is that we in Croatia do not have Vlach, we have Serbians.

As far I know, there are one or two records about arrival of Serbs to Croatia and for Vlach 20 times more.

Where are Croatian Vlach disappeared??, they just change their name but genetics remained same becouse genetic does not change name.

And about the Croats who have gone to Orthodoxy we will not talk, let genetics speak, hahaha.

Additionally written.

hrvat22
06-10-17, 16:33
Dibran (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/51677-Dibran)


but putting all J2 and E1b under one Albanian umbrella is not true.

I wrote the types

very likely and J2a and R1b types.

Which types are in Albanians I do not know.



Regardless all E-V13 is related if you go back far enough.

If same occurs in the Albanian hills, then it is connected with today Albanians 12,000 years, this is an indisputable fact.

Will someone call him (E-V13) Albanian, Chinese, Turkish it's his thing but it is related to today's Albanians.



Hell, there is a likelihood My line was a Romanized byzantine Slav.

You are in the male line Slavic origin, and in 10 years or earlier you will know where your male ancestor comes from(village, town, country)

Dibran
06-10-17, 16:39
Thank you for your intelligent and well written resume. really well said, I do not agree that E-V13 is from slaves( I agree with everything else), but as you said we could not be sure, maybe it is, who knows :)

Perhaps, its so native of a line, that I am sure it was not exclusively found in slaves.

Dibran
06-10-17, 17:17
I wrote the types


Which types are in Albanians I do not know.




If same occurs in the Albanian hills, then it is connected with today Albanians 12,000 years, this is an indisputable fact.

Will someone call him (E-V13) Albanian, Chinese, Turkish it's his thing but it is related to today's Albanians.




You are in the male line Slavic origin, and in 10 years or earlier you will know where your male ancestor comes from(village, town, country)


Albanian is an Indo-European language. Indo-Europeans were not even in the Balkans 12000 years ago. So the fact Albanians paternally descend from natives 12,000 years ago, then they adopted proto Albanian language from mostly R1b-L23 Proto Albanians. Albanian is also part of the Satem Indo European branch. Which means it evolved from the same indo European branch that Slavic and Indo-Aryan Languages evolved. There is no doubt the original Ydna of Proto Albanians was R1b. Though, the language spread as far as current evidence suggests, were by proto-indo-europeans who were largely R1a.

There is even evidence to suggest a bronze age type of "globalization", which would explain the dominant indo European language spread via trade, without the Y-DNA accompanying it. This is evident even today where Albanian language is being mixed with American English, due to business, trade, and globalization. Evidence was discovered in Pompeii, suggesting far larger melting pot than even modern day NYC.

History is constantly happening in constant flux. Even modern concepts of nationalism didn't exist a few hundred years ago. I do not think anyone will find the evidence supporting a unitary theory. It doesn't surprise me though, that people will continue to push their agendas despite what evidence would suggest.


No it is not Slavic origin. This is what I mean by the fact that one needs to accustom themselves to the many factors of determining genetic ancestry. If you pay attention to what I stated, I am negative downstream Z283. Z283 were Kurgans.

R1a is not exclusively Slavic. M458/Z280 are the main Slavic branches, and even certain clades under these branches are not exlusively Slavic. I would take the admins of the R1a projects extensive knowledge on this matter moreso than fellow forum users(no disrespect). There is some debate whether M458 was even Slavic as it may have participated in WielBark Culture, Lusatian etc. Prior to the expansion of Proto-Slavs, and upon assimilation, the inception of Slavs.

Proto-Balto-Slavic is not the same as Slavic. It is the proto-Indo-European linguistic umbrella, that diverged into many indo European languages(one of which Slavic belongs). If my paternal matches and clade come back Slavic then that would confirm your assertion. However, my family has been Albanian for 400 years as far as we can document, prior to which oral history claims descent from Mirdita. Most of my autosomal matches are Albanians Greeks, and Romanians. If my ancestor was a Slav it was in the great migration period.

When one mentions Slav and Proto-Balto-Slavic, we have to understand they are different. In the same sense, Slavs ethnogenically are a culture formed of Proto-Slavs(whom diverged from proto-balto-slavs) and other absorbed peoples.

To clarify the term Proto:

proto-
ˈprōdō/
combining form
prefix: proto-; prefix: prot-


original; primitive.
"prototherian"

first; anterior; relating to a precursor.
"protomartyr"









A precursor cannot be confused for modern day cultures. a pre-cursor was a particular tribe or group of men to whom the later evolving cultures largely descend. It is mixing proto slavs(who diverged from proto balto slavs) and other components of expanding groups, which pooled together formed the modern ethno linguistic slavs. Z283 folk probably looked Asian as ****, considering Central Asian origin.

Slavic is a ethnolinguistic group. to say all R1a is Slavic is silly. You have R1a very widespread from Europe to Asia. If LivingDNA was wrong in their assignment, then there is possibility I belong to M458 or Z280. If they are correct and Yelite/FtDNA confirms this, then I am probably a rare clade under Z283(Kurgan/Proto-Indo-European). I already lack 2 tihrds of pivotal mutations on the line anyways. which means the confidence level for placement is low.

Y-DNA is also a base, and only accounts for 1 percent(mtDNa the other one percent) which is a total of 2 percent of the genome. Your autosomal profile(the other 98%) is what is used for inference of ethnic composition and shared dna population to population. You can't call an E-V13 Slav(who may or may not have had an Albanian ancestor in the distant past) an Albanian anymore than you would call a Greek, Greek whose family was in Russia and mixed with Russians.

Ethnic groups can only be linked to certain mutations on the Y-line based upon the cultures their paternal ancestor participated. This is due to the unique mutations developing within the host culture it mixed. This is why you find these mutations unique to ethnic groups. Not becauause the haplogroup is specifically "insert ethnic group here" but because their paternal ancestor developed/inherited new mutations given assimilation into a different culture compared to those who participated in a separate culture.

You can find these divergence points through TMRCA which clearly show it cant all be grouped into one basket. That's ignorance. Only people with nationalistic agendas make absolutist claims.

hrvat22
06-10-17, 18:03
Dibran (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/51677-Dibran)


Albanian is an Indo-European language.

I'm not talking about Indo-European language I talk about Albanians with E1b types.


Z283 were Kurgans.

Then you have Kurgan ancestor in the male line.


You can't call an E-V13 Slav

Who calls him Slav??


Ethnic groups can only be linked to certain mutations on the Y-line based upon the cultures their paternal ancestor participated.
I2a I-S17250 has a genetic connection with the Croats, and historical records only that I-S17250 conect with Croats.

For that reason I-S17250 can not be originally Albanian, Bulgarian, Greek, Bosnian, Slovenian, Romanian, Serbian, Montenegrin, Ukrainian, Rusian, Czech, Vlach, Slovak etc..

Dibran
06-10-17, 18:24
I'm not talking about Indo-European language I talk about Albanians with E1b types.



Then you have Kurgan ancestor in the male line.



Who calls him Slav??


I2a I-S17250 has a genetic connection with the Croats, and historical records only that I-S17250 conect with Croats.

For that reason I-S17250 can not be originally Albanian, Bulgarian, Greek, Bosnian, Slovenian, Romanian, Serbian, Montenegrin, Ukrainian, Rusian, Czech, Vlach, Slovak etc..

Then I apologize for the confusion. The way you phrased it I assumed you meant as a culture Albanians existed for 12000 years. As a Language the earliest it would have entered was the bronze age. So the paternal ancestors of many Albanians are descended from natives assimilated by Proto-Albanian R1b-L23. That's my understanding. This suggests that modern Albanians are largely descended from natives who intermixed with Proto-Albanians and inherited language and culture and dna much the same as my paternal ancestors did(possibly during the great migration).

You said:
Who calls him Slav??

If you read the whole statement I said ". You can't call an E-V13 Slav(who may or may not have had an Albanian ancestor in the distant past) an Albanian anymore than you would call a Greek, Greek whose family was in Russia and mixed with Russians."

If I wasn't clear I apologize. In short, an E-V13 Slav who had an Albanian ancestor is no more Albanian if that ancestor lived generations ago. I know in the case of Sanxhak that some maybe have been Albanian as early as 100 years ago, so in this case we can say with certainty they are Albanian. But 1000? 2000? 5000 years? That wouldn't make sense considering none of the modern cultures we ascribe these lines existed at their inception.



Even today, Americans are so mixed, they cannot be specifically this or that. They are a new culture.

With regards to I2a, I am afraid I do not know much about this Haplogroup or its many branches. So I apologize if I have nothing to offer on this particular subject. I wouldn't know. However, if we assume similar course of events as many lineages, I suppose it depends on the TMRCA for one. Including specific mutation. when did this clade I-S17250 form? If it predates the development of the culture that would be considered "Croat" Then chances are it is not Croatian. However if this specific mutation you reference is most dominant in and corresponds to the Croats, then I would agree its Croatian.

It all depends on the matches and mutations of that line those I2 people have. TMRCA etc.. I recently learned that some people of the same branch can have different TMRCA's which I think indicates that the common ancestor diverged, and didn't participate in the same movements as its brother branches.

Do other Balkan peoples on this branch you mention largely match Croats? If so I would assume that is the connection.

Yetos
06-10-17, 19:04
oh boy

at the end I am from Y-DNA from Africa Homo Sapiens
and from mt DNA from Neantherthal from Caucasus,

so I am an Afro-Asian European,

YOU MISS THE POINT,

Hrvat, go tell your neighbour, that is not I2, that he is not Croat,
even if he lost his father or his grand father in a war for Croatia,

JUST STUPIDITY

Sile
06-10-17, 19:22
Albanian is an Indo-European language. Indo-Europeans were not even in the Balkans 12000 years ago. So the fact Albanians paternally descend from natives 12,000 years ago, then they adopted proto Albanian language from mostly R1b-L23 Proto Albanians. Albanian is also part of the Satem Indo European branch. Which means it evolved from the same indo European branch that Slavic and Indo-Aryan Languages evolved. There is no doubt the original Ydna of Proto Albanians was R1b. Though, the language spread as far as current evidence suggests, were by proto-indo-europeans who were largely R1a.

There is even evidence to suggest a bronze age type of "globalization", which would explain the dominant indo European language spread via trade, without the Y-DNA accompanying it. This is evident even today where Albanian language is being mixed with American English, due to business, trade, and globalization. Evidence was discovered in Pompeii, suggesting far larger melting pot than even modern day NYC.

History is constantly happening in constant flux. Even modern concepts of nationalism didn't exist a few hundred years ago. I do not think anyone will find the evidence supporting a unitary theory. It doesn't surprise me though, that people will continue to push their agendas despite what evidence would suggest.


No it is not Slavic origin. This is what I mean by the fact that one needs to accustom themselves to the many factors of determining genetic ancestry. If you pay attention to what I stated, I am negative downstream Z283. Z283 were Kurgans.

R1a is not exclusively Slavic. M458/Z280 are the main Slavic branches, and even certain clades under these branches are not exlusively Slavic. I would take the admins of the R1a projects extensive knowledge on this matter moreso than fellow forum users(no disrespect). There is some debate whether M458 was even Slavic as it may have participated in WielBark Culture, Lusatian etc. Prior to the expansion of Proto-Slavs, and upon assimilation, the inception of Slavs.

Proto-Balto-Slavic is not the same as Slavic. It is the proto-Indo-European linguistic umbrella, that diverged into many indo European languages(one of which Slavic belongs). If my paternal matches and clade come back Slavic then that would confirm your assertion. However, my family has been Albanian for 400 years as far as we can document, prior to which oral history claims descent from Mirdita. Most of my autosomal matches are Albanians Greeks, and Romanians. If my ancestor was a Slav it was in the great migration period.

When one mentions Slav and Proto-Balto-Slavic, we have to understand they are different. In the same sense, Slavs ethnogenically are a culture formed of Proto-Slavs(whom diverged from proto-balto-slavs) and other absorbed peoples.

To clarify the term Proto:

proto-
ˈprōdō/
combining form
prefix: proto-; prefix: prot-


original; primitive.
"prototherian"

first; anterior; relating to a precursor.
"protomartyr"









A precursor cannot be confused for modern day cultures. a pre-cursor was a particular tribe or group of men to whom the later evolving cultures largely descend. It is mixing proto slavs(who diverged from proto balto slavs) and other components of expanding groups, which pooled together formed the modern ethno linguistic slavs. Z283 folk probably looked Asian as ****, considering Central Asian origin.

Slavic is a ethnolinguistic group. to say all R1a is Slavic is silly. You have R1a very widespread from Europe to Asia. If LivingDNA was wrong in their assignment, then there is possibility I belong to M458 or Z280. If they are correct and Yelite/FtDNA confirms this, then I am probably a rare clade under Z283(Kurgan/Proto-Indo-European). I already lack 2 tihrds of pivotal mutations on the line anyways. which means the confidence level for placement is low.

Y-DNA is also a base, and only accounts for 1 percent(mtDNa the other one percent) which is a total of 2 percent of the genome. Your autosomal profile(the other 98%) is what is used for inference of ethnic composition and shared dna population to population. You can't call an E-V13 Slav(who may or may not have had an Albanian ancestor in the distant past) an Albanian anymore than you would call a Greek, Greek whose family was in Russia and mixed with Russians.

Ethnic groups can only be linked to certain mutations on the Y-line based upon the cultures their paternal ancestor participated. This is due to the unique mutations developing within the host culture it mixed. This is why you find these mutations unique to ethnic groups. Not becauause the haplogroup is specifically "insert ethnic group here" but because their paternal ancestor developed/inherited new mutations given assimilation into a different culture compared to those who participated in a separate culture.

You can find these divergence points through TMRCA which clearly show it cant all be grouped into one basket. That's ignorance. Only people with nationalistic agendas make absolutist claims.

agree

One then has the term pre-Slav which people think is the same as proto-slav .................it is not , and we have to contend with this confusion

Trojet
06-10-17, 19:29
@Garrick
Are you a bot?
I said earlier that my family just like many came from Herzegovina and brought a distinct Albanian dialect with them. How did those mysterious Albanians of yours manage to assimilate us so far up North while we're sorrounded by Vlachs and Slavs?
Balkan population movements happened mostly from North to South in that era, so we pushed each other South from Bosnia and Herzegovina down to Peloponnesus, as you can see in the mutations of many many Greeks belonging to V13 or even J2b2 for that matter. Not to mention that Albanian has a layer of Latin words since BC while you're stuck with 8th century AD and Free Carpi/Bastarnae or whatever you came up with recently.
Im surprised Sile hasn't showed up yet. And of course dear Angela to delete my posts and issue some infractions for derailing the topic.

:laughing: It's the usual pattern, isn't it by Garrick the Serb ("Free Dacians", "Carpi", etc). I'm surprised Sile hasn't showed up yet too, lol

hrvat22
06-10-17, 19:42
Dibran (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/51677-Dibran)

so in this case we can say with certainty they are Albanian. But 1000? 2000? 5000 years?

I agree that some subclade which have arisen before first mention of Albanian name can not be factually related to Albanians but I think that Illyrians are ancestors of today Albanians.




I do not know historical connection between Illyrians and Albanians but the only thing that binds them is E1b subclade CTS5856 (north Albania 4700 years) and that subclade(as ancestor subclade) have every Albanian in that area.



when did this clade I-S17250 form?

https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/

formed 2600-1950 year.

It is a White Croat mutation, fact is that White Croats there are not mentioned until the 6th century however the only record from Balkans that confirms migration of someone from that area(south east Poland, south west Ukraine) is record about Croatians.

Later in the area are mentioned some Croats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats

Behind this subclade I-S17250 exist different branches but only those subclade I-S17250 is a common ancestor to all Croatian subclades.

Considering that subclade I-S17250 coming from the area where White Croats are mentioned the only logical explanation is that subclade I-S17250 is White Croatian origin.



Do other Balkan peoples on this branch you mention largely match Croats?

Most of the Balkans I2a have an ancestor mutation I-S17250

Porphyrogenitus in 10th century says that Croats settled Illyria, Dalmatia and Pannonia and that come from Great Croatia.

There exist and some Croatian toponyms in Macedonia and Greece

​https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap

Sile
06-10-17, 19:43
@Garrick

Are you a bot?

I said earlier that my family just like many came from Herzegovina and brought a distinct Albanian dialect with them. How did those mysterious Albanians of yours manage to assimilate us so far up North while we're sorrounded by Vlachs and Slavs?

Balkan population movements happened mostly from North to South in that era, so we pushed each other South from Bosnia and Herzegovina down to Peloponnesus, as you can see in the mutations of many many Greeks belonging to V13 or even J2b2 for that matter. Not to mention that Albanian has a layer of Latin words since BC while you're stuck with 8th century AD and Free Carpi/Bastarnae or whatever you came up with recently.

Im surprised Sile hasn't showed up yet. And of course dear Angela to delete my posts and issue some infractions for derailing the topic.

LOL, maybe you do not know how to get to pages older than the one you are on...................see top right of this page and click the box left of the highlighted one .......let me know if you need help on the number order

Dibran
06-10-17, 20:07
I agree that some subclade which have arisen before first mention of Albanian name can not be factually related to Albanians but I think that Illyrians are ancestors of today Albanians


I do not know historical connection between Illyrians and Albanians but the only thing that binds them is E1b subclade CTS5856 (north Albania 4700 years) and that subclade(as ancestor subclade) have every Albanian in that area.




https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/

formed 2600-1950 year.

It is a White Croat mutation, fact is that White Croats there are not mentioned until the 6th century however the only record from Balkans that confirms migration of someone from that area(south east Poland, south west Ukraine) is record about Croatians.

Later in the area are mentioned some Croats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats

Behind this subclade I-S17250 exist different branches but only those subclade I-S17250 is a common ancestor to all Croatian subclades.

Considering that subclade I-S17250 coming from the area where White Croats are mentioned the only logical explanation is that subclade I-S17250 is White Croatian origin.




Most of the Balkans I2a have an ancestor mutation I-S17250

Porphyrogenitus in 10th century says that Croats settled Illyria, Dalmatia and Pannonia and that come from Great Croatia.

There exist and some Croatian toponyms in Macedonia and Greece

​https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap

I have no doubt Albanians are largely descended from Illyrians, at least paternally(E-V13/J2b2/some R1b). Linguistically there is very little evidence for or against the connection, so until further evidence surfaces, its just going to be more of the same bs theories. I think even if there was linguistic evidence that surfaced, many neighbors would deny it for the sheer fact we are Albanians. When someone brings themselves to hate a thing, they will be too blind to see the lies they perpetuate. Its human. If people do not know how to organize their hate, and not let it overcome their decision making, they tend to run with pure desire and agenda. Even with the evidence that genetically Albanians are largely natives, whether the language is Illyrian or not, you still see people trying to deny the truth.


It depends on what the original carriers of this branch called themselves. Though, as mentioned prior, Proto-Croats are not ethnically, culturally and patrilineally the same as Modern Croats. I agree when you say(assuming it is mostly common among Croats) that Croatians themselves descend from these proto-Croatians. But, to say all with this branch are specifically Croatian would be incorrect, at least from a wording point of view. I would imagine if other Balkan peoples with this branch come directly from Modern Croatian peoples, that they should have a younger TMRCA related to this connection. However, if their TMRCA match that of the older movements of that clade, then the proper statement would be that Balkan peoples with I-S17250 are descended from Proto-Croats, rather than more recent middle age Croatians. For example, if an I2a slav only became Greek 200 years ago, then his TMRCA and mutations should reflect the shift. However, if his TMRCA dates back to the inception of the line, then it would be more appropriate to assign it to Proto-Croats. The oldest to carry this mutation was discovered in a medieval slav from Poland is this correct? Assuming this branch is part of I2-Din. If that is the same sample, then, given current evidence, I would agree with you considering where the branch was discovered.

Sile
06-10-17, 20:32
I have no doubt Albanians are largely descended from Illyrians, at least paternally(E-V13/J2b2/some R1b). Linguistically there is very little evidence for or against the connection, so until further evidence surfaces, its just going to be more of the same bs theories. I think even if there was linguistic evidence that surfaced, many neighbors would deny it for the sheer fact we are Albanians. When someone brings themselves to hate a thing, they will be too blind to see the lies they perpetuate. Its human. If people do not know how to organize their hate, and not let it overcome their decision making, they tend to run with pure desire and agenda. Even with the evidence that genetically Albanians are largely natives, whether the language is Illyrian or not, you still see people trying to deny the truth.


It depends on what the original carriers of this branch called themselves. Though, as mentioned prior, Proto-Croats are not ethnically, culturally and patrilineally the same as Modern Croats. I agree when you say(assuming it is mostly common among Croats) that Croatians themselves descend from these proto-Croatians. But, to say all with this branch are specifically Croatian would be incorrect, at least from a wording point of view. I would imagine if other Balkan peoples with this branch come directly from Modern Croatian peoples, that they should have a younger TMRCA related to this connection. However, if their TMRCA match that of the older movements of that clade, then the proper statement would be that Balkan peoples with I-S17250 are descended from Proto-Croats, rather than more recent middle age Croatians. For example, if an I2a slav only became Greek 200 years ago, then his TMRCA and mutations should reflect the shift. However, if his TMRCA dates back to the inception of the line, then it would be more appropriate to assign it to Proto-Croats. The oldest to carry this mutation was discovered in a medieval slav from Poland is this correct? Assuming this branch is part of I2-Din. If that is the same sample, then, given current evidence, I would agree with you considering where the branch was discovered.


You need to start reading about Noricum and the original homeland of the illyrians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noricum

Halstatt culture is also based on a celtic people mixing from south-germany and illyrian people from East-Austria.............Halstatt means salt town, with Hal meaning salt in Illyrian and statt meaning town in celtic ( the germans changed statt to stadt for town later on ).

Dalmatians migrated from noricum to the adriatic as noted by historians

Albanians are more linked genetically with greeks and Etruscans ( tuscans ), they do not have any genetic link with central europe unless you can provide info

Dibran
06-10-17, 20:51
You need to start reading about Noricum and the original homeland of the illyrians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noricum

Halstatt culture is also based on a celtic people mixing from south-germany and illyrian people from East-Austria.............Halstatt means salt town, with Hal meaning salt in Illyrian and statt meaning town in celtic ( the germans changed statt to stadt for town later on ).

Dalmatians migrated from noricum to the adriatic as noted by historians

Albanians are more linked genetically with greeks and Etruscans ( tuscans ), they do not have any genetic link with central europe unless you can provide info

Lets get something absolutely clear. Y-DNA and Autosomal DNA do not go hand in hand(sometimes they do). For the most part they do not. Albanians are in fact descendants of Illyrians by Y-DNA. Maybe autosomally and linguistically there is no connection. This is besides the point though.

It is irrelevant whether or not Illyrians were Albanians. Many Albanian men are descended from them by their Y-DNA. So far, the only remains associated with Illyrians based on geography are those that were discovered(E-V13/J2b/R1b). Albanians have these lineages in higher percentages than their neighbors.

I do agree we are linked more with Greeks and Tuscans autosomally speaking. Paternally however, this seems less likey. Greeks are overwhelmingly J2a, compared to J2b Albanians. The fact that J2b was discovered in Croatia, there is no doubt its probably a lineage that participated in Illyrian ethnogenesis. Otherwise it would not be the father branch Albanians belong. The problem stems from every laymen laying claim to ancient tribes, by associating modern ethnicities. In doing so the picture becomes very fragmented.

People need to learn how to separate language culture and Y-DNA. They are not always directly correlated. Proto-Albanians were probably more steppe shifted when they entered the Balkans. Those steppe shifted proto-Albanians would have been autosomally closer to Illyrians. Upon mixing with the southern paleobalkan folk we could have assimilated the lineages that are most dominant in us today, including inheriting higher Neolithic mixture. Remember, language, culture, etc, are all social constructs. Genetics needs to be kept separate from this strawman rhetoric people play.

As a culture illyrians do not exist any more. Linguistically as I stated there is little to no evidence to make any concrete assertions regarding their direct descendant. Even if we linguistically were Illyrians, time, history, movement of peoples, evolution of education and culture, would all contribute to the very different nature of the language today. The fact remains, Albanians as a people(not a language) largely descend from peoples who predate the indo Europeans since the Neolithic.

No matter what naysayers will say, Albanians didn't just show up from thin air. Nor are they from the Caucasus; a theory that no serious professional considers. If I had to tell you how many times I have heard this theory, 9/10 were from Serbs.

Diomedes
06-10-17, 21:44
DNA might say one thing or two. At the end of the day of course, what matters is the way of upbringing a person has. More or less, I mean the culture one receives.

Johane Derite
06-10-17, 22:08
I agree with literally everything you said Dibran.

This is for non balkan lurkers who may not be aware:

Please lets remember that not a single example of the Illyrian language actually exists.

So whenever you read an article about linguists proving the Illyrian language has NOTHING to do with albanian,
or in the obverse; is the EXACT SAME as Albanian, ask yourself how this conclusion has been reached.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Also something that needs to be recognized:

Producing a Yugoslavian map as evidence that toponyms are not of Albanian origin is NOT solid evidence.
Yugoslavia was founded with the explicit goal of establishing a slavic ethno-kingdom.
This meant the removal of non-Slav cultural, linguistic and ethnic elements on an institutional scale.
No chance they were going to name sites with Albanian names on these maps.
Even today in Kosovo for every Serbian name of a village or town there is a parallel name in Albanian.
For example the town Podujevo(Serbian) is called Besianë by the Albanians.




Albanians are more linked genetically with greeks and Etruscans ( tuscans ), they do not have any genetic link with central europe unless you can provide info

While i'm not aware of any genetic evidence as of yet, Vladimir Orel provides unexpected linguistic evidence for this in his book "A Concise Historical Grammar of the Albanian Language / Reconstruction of Proto-Albanian" :

https://i.imgur.com/0OiMi8P.png

Dibran
06-10-17, 22:15
DNA might say one thing or two. At the end of the day of course, what matters is the way of upbringing a person has. More or less, I mean the culture one receives.

Exactly. Culturally speaking I'm Albanian American. Genetically Albanian. My ancestors as far back as is known were Albanian. Before then who knows. Things are in constant flux. No culture should be glorified idolistically. Culture should seek to constantly grow expand and change with every new innovation(hopefully good ones). I don't think any of us would want to knit our own clothes anymore, let alone use a scythe to cut grass anymore lol.

Think about how dull and droll the world and peoples would be if cultures did not interact and exchange. Especially how phenotypically inbred people would be. Lol

Sile
06-10-17, 22:33
Lets get something absolutely clear. Y-DNA and Autosomal DNA do not go hand in hand(sometimes they do). For the most part they do not. Albanians are in fact descendants of Illyrians by Y-DNA. Maybe autosomally and linguistically there is no connection. This is besides the point though.
It is irrelevant whether or not Illyrians were Albanians. Many Albanian men are descended from them by their Y-DNA. So far, the only remains associated with Illyrians based on geography are those that were discovered(E-V13/J2b/R1b). Albanians have these lineages in higher percentages than their neighbors.
I do agree we are linked more with Greeks and Tuscans autosomally speaking. Paternally however, this seems less likey. Greeks are overwhelmingly J2a, compared to J2b Albanians. The fact that J2b was discovered in Croatia, there is no doubt its probably a lineage that participated in Illyrian ethnogenesis. Otherwise it would not be the father branch Albanians belong. The problem stems from every laymen laying claim to ancient tribes, by associating modern ethnicities. In doing so the picture becomes very fragmented.
People need to learn how to separate language culture and Y-DNA. They are not always directly correlated. Proto-Albanians were probably more steppe shifted when they entered the Balkans. Those steppe shifted proto-Albanians would have been autosomally closer to Illyrians. Upon mixing with the southern paleobalkan folk we could have assimilated the lineages that are most dominant in us today, including inheriting higher Neolithic mixture. Remember, language, culture, etc, are all social constructs. Genetics needs to be kept separate from this strawman rhetoric people play.
As a culture illyrians do not exist any more. Linguistically as I stated there is little to no evidence to make any concrete assertions regarding their direct descendant. Even if we linguistically were Illyrians, time, history, movement of peoples, evolution of education and culture, would all contribute to the very different nature of the language today. The fact remains, Albanians as a people(not a language) largely descend from peoples who predate the indo Europeans since the Neolithic.
No matter what naysayers will say, Albanians didn't just show up from thin air. Nor are they from the Caucasus; a theory that no serious professional considers. If I had to tell you how many times I have heard this theory, 9/10 were from Serbs.
very doubtful,
texts about illyrian appear more than 500 years before in Noricum than they appear in modern montengro or albania .
It is more likely the albanian are of Thracian, macedonian or greek descent .............which again matches the ydna
The pre-roman studies of NE-italy which at the time was part illyrian, cities like Oderzo, Udine and triese to name 3 had
24% of I-M253
24% of R1b-U106
9% of J2b
15% of R1a
7% of E-M78
5% of G
3.8% of T
2% of L
1% of the following E-M34, E-M123, I-S23 and J1-M267
below are illyrian names from Noricum............if you want more I will provide
https://s20.postimg.org/eaop3uc8t/nori_names.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Dibran
06-10-17, 22:37
I agree with literally everything you said Dibran.

This is for non balkan lurkers who may not be aware:

Please lets remember that not a single example of the Illyrian language actually exists.

So whenever you read an article about linguists proving the Illyrian language has NOTHING to do with albanian,
or in the obverse; is the EXACT SAME as Albanian, ask yourself how this conclusion has been reached.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Also something that needs to be recognized:

Producing a Yugoslavian map as evidence that toponyms are not of Albanian origin is NOT solid evidence.
Yugoslavia was founded with the explicit goal of establishing a slavic ethno-kingdom.
This meant the removal of non-Slav cultural, linguistic and ethnic elements on an institutional scale.
No chance they were going to name sites with Albanian names on these maps.
Even today in Kosovo for every Serbian name of a village or town there is a parallel name in Albanian.
For example the town Podujevo(Serbian) is called Besianë by the Albanians.





While i'm not aware of any genetic evidence as of yet, Vladimir Orel provides unexpected linguistic evidence for this in his book "A Concise Historical Grammar of the Albanian Language / Reconstruction of Proto-Albanian" :

https://i.imgur.com/0OiMi8P.png


I completely agree as well. Even the Austrian Albanologists who are only looking at a 1000 year old Albanian written work, have noted numerous differences from it and modern Albanian. Such a short span of time and radical change of a language makes the situation much more delicate, and more care must be taken before things are completely ruled out. If the connection to Central Europe is true, it could open up numerous scenarios. Connection could be by way of linguistic continuation. Perhaps Proto Albanians were a native entity that migrating Illyrians pushed further south towards Mat. Another possibility is that Illyrians weren't even one singular ethnic group. I think this is the likely scenario. Much like today's Americans call everyone in the Balkans Yugoslavian, in the same sense this term could have been applied broadly by the Romans and Greeks, to a people of varied origin. It would explain why they were never truly united and only functioned like a loose federation of tribes. Perhaps this is what leads to confusion of classifying them as Centum or Satem. Perhaps because there were certain competing elements within. I imagine northwest Illyrians were more akin to their progenitors whilst south Illyrians became a hodge podge between the host culture and natives. I'm sure time will reveal this. Especially with the rate genetics is expanding, including the methods whereby to extract DNA from remains that may have previously been problematic. I reckon the truth won't really confirm to anyone's specific desires but may lie somewhere in the middle.

Dibran
06-10-17, 22:52
very doubtful,
texts about illyrian appear more than 500 years before in Noricum than they appear in modern montengro or albania .
It is more likely the albanian are of Thracian, macedonian or greek descent .............which again matches the ydna
The pre-roman studies of NE-italy which at the time was part illyrian, cities like Oderzo, Udine and triese to name 3 had
24% of I-M253
24% of R1b-U106
9% of J2b
15% of R1a
7% of E-M78
5% of G
3.8% of T
2% of L
1% of the following E-M34, E-M123, I-S23 and J1-M267
below are illyrian names from Noricum............if you want more I will provide
https://s20.postimg.org/eaop3uc8t/nori_names.jpg (https://postimages.org/)


I think Thracian is more likely for Macedonian Slavs and Bulgarians considering where the majority of their tribes inhabited. No pure anything exists anymore. You will not find speakers of the dead language or pure genetic descendants. Them and there deeds are to history. Today's nations are new nations that developed from the collection of these tribes Ilin some proportion or other. I'm not ruling anything out though given that in the professional sector these all remain theory. Until there's evidence for or against anything, all remains speculative fancy. Some well educated guesses, mostly bullshit.

Concerning YDNA, you still seem to be Misunderstanding the clear evidence these haplogroups(EV13/J2b/R1b) participated in Illyrian ethnogenesis. It's not like we are pulling this stuff out of a hat. Remains were discovered in the lands encompassing "Illyria". Said remains belonged to the father clade of Albanian J2b2 and E-V13. The same haplgroups(regardless if Albanian language has nothing to do with them) are present in Neolithic Balkans and therefore most probably participated in Illyrian ethnogenesis. . The original Illyrians maybe didn't possess it. That's because Proto Illyrians were another culture entirely. Illyrians upon entering the Balkans would have assimilated these lineages.

I personally think Albanians split off from a common ancestor with Greeks, and that they were already natives prior to the arrival of Illyrians, but like the Vlachs, were a isolated pocket of nomadic tribes. Upon intermixing with Illyrians romans Thracians slavs etc, that surviving clan of mountain folk would pool together to form modern Albanians. I imagine Illyrians participated moreso in Albanians and western south Slavic ethnogenesis whereas Macedonia Thracian Dacian noreso absorbed by Macedonians Bulgarians eastern Serbs Romanians etc. it's not one size fits all. The truth and sequence of events in history were not linear but very static.

I always enjoy history and acquisition of information. Please post links that I may read when I have the time.

Yetos
06-10-17, 23:39
I have no doubt Albanians are largely descended from Illyrians, at least paternally(E-V13/J2b2/some R1b). Linguistically there is very little evidence for or against the connection, so until further evidence surfaces, its just going to be more of the same bs theories. I think even if there was linguistic evidence that surfaced, many neighbors would deny it for the sheer fact we are Albanians. When someone brings themselves to hate a thing, they will be too blind to see the lies they perpetuate. Its human. If people do not know how to organize their hate, and not let it overcome their decision making, they tend to run with pure desire and agenda. Even with the evidence that genetically Albanians are largely natives, whether the language is Illyrian or not, you still see people trying to deny the truth.


It depends on what the original carriers of this branch called themselves. Though, as mentioned prior, Proto-Croats are not ethnically, culturally and patrilineally the same as Modern Croats. I agree when you say(assuming it is mostly common among Croats) that Croatians themselves descend from these proto-Croatians. But, to say all with this branch are specifically Croatian would be incorrect, at least from a wording point of view. I would imagine if other Balkan peoples with this branch come directly from Modern Croatian peoples, that they should have a younger TMRCA related to this connection. However, if their TMRCA match that of the older movements of that clade, then the proper statement would be that Balkan peoples with I-S17250 are descended from Proto-Croats, rather than more recent middle age Croatians. For example, if an I2a slav only became Greek 200 years ago, then his TMRCA and mutations should reflect the shift. However, if his TMRCA dates back to the inception of the line, then it would be more appropriate to assign it to Proto-Croats. The oldest to carry this mutation was discovered in a medieval slav from Poland is this correct? Assuming this branch is part of I2-Din. If that is the same sample, then, given current evidence, I would agree with you considering where the branch was discovered.


Dibran the language aspirations does not fit for Illyrian ancestry,

exclude V-13, cause its pre-IE,

V-13 did not spoke IE, how fantastic is to speak Illyrian or Albanian

J2 is a strange case,

for example we know that Both Myceneans and Minoans were J2a1
but only Myceneans are consider as a characteristic IE

Noricum is the motherland of Illyrians
Sile is correct
and their language was Celtic,
Like Aromanian.
in Fact at linguistic terms Aromanians (Remenii|) have more possibility to be Illyrians, that have Albanians,

these are θεσεις theseis, basic accepted to establish the Theorema.


to end, the bellow is fact. wanted or not,
Albanians have a genetical connection with W Aimos peninsula,
but not a linguistic,
if they were Illyrians they should clearly speak a centum language,
close to N Italian, with enough Germanic

you need another theory or axioma to use as accepted, to found as accepted,

look for example me.
I am G2a3, mt X2
my HG might be in Greece before the arrival of IE Mycenean or Greeks, or after
my ancestors maybe spoke summerian or Hatti or whatever,
today I consider my shelf a Greek, by tradition of family,
same is for most the HG in Balkans, even I Hg,
except R1b R1a,
and the strange role of J2 in IE


Illyrians
were a celtic tribe,
their origin was Noricum modern Austria,
they descent all down to what Pliny names as Illyria proprie Dicti,

do not mix the Illyrians with Illyricum,
the first were a tribe, the second were Roman citizenship after a Huge province.

Dibran
07-10-17, 00:23
Dibran the language aspirations does not fit for Illyrian ancestry,

exclude V-13, cause its pre-IE,

V-13 did not spoke IE, how fantastic is to speak Illyrian or Albanian

J2 is a strange case,

for example we know that Both Myceneans and Minoans were J2a1
but only Myceneans are consider as a characteristic IE

Noricum is the motherland of Illyrians
Sile is correct
and their language was Celtic,
Like Aromanian.
in Fact at linguistic terms Aromanians (Remenii|) have more possibility to be Illyrians, that have Albanians,

these are θεσεις theseis, basic accepted to establish the Theorema.


to end, the bellow is fact. wanted or not,
Albanians have a genetical connection with W Aimos peninsula,
but not a linguistic,
if they were Illyrians they should clearly speak a centum language,
close to N Italian, with enough Germanic

you need another theory or axioma to use as accepted, to found as accepted,

look for example me.
I am G2a3, mt X2
my HG might be in Greece before the arrival of IE Mycenean or Greeks, or after
my ancestors maybe spoke summerian or Hatti or whatever,
today I consider my shelf a Greek, by tradition of family,
same is for most the HG in Balkans, even I Hg,
except R1b R1a,
and the strange role of J2 in IE


Illyrians
were a celtic tribe,
their origin was Noricum modern Austria,
they descent all down to what Pliny names as Illyria proprie Dicti,

do not mix the Illyrians with Illyricum,
the first were a tribe, the second were Roman citizenship after a Huge province.

maybe hey we're. Maybe they weren't. Like I said, no evidence for or against. Very little of anything but sparse words exist. There is no solid consensus because there is no abundant evidence. Just fragments to which people attempt well educated guesses based on historical documentation which itself is a written work that may not be completely reliable. Hence the reason for archeology to confirm or reject historical claims. As any individual with common sense should understand, history is not a stand in for reality, but a perspective from the dominant tribe. Propaganda of the time if you will. Point is your claim is just as flimsy as that of Albanians claiming a connection. It's just guesswork until evidence is available. Until that it's all a waste of bickering. If you cared to read anything I said, I stated E-V13 is Neolithic not Illyrian. I also stated as would any common sense individual, that e-V13 most definitely participated in the ethnogenesis of Illyrians as did they many other tribes who absorbed their peoples. It is irrelevant whether or not Albanian has anything to do with the language. I have repeated this over and over. The fact remains, a good majority of Albanian men are paternally descended from Neolithic natives. Regardless of whether or not we spoke Illyrian or them pre indo European. Fact is fact, Albanians are largely natives. But I know I am speaking to a wall because you will resort to forming an argument where no argument should even exist considering there is no evidence to argue over. Just fanciful desires.

Sile
07-10-17, 00:32
I think Thracian is more likely for Macedonian Slavs and Bulgarians considering where the majority of their tribes inhabited. No pure anything exists anymore. You will not find speakers of the dead language or pure genetic descendants. Them and there deeds are to history. Today's nations are new nations that developed from the collection of these tribes Ilin some proportion or other. I'm not ruling anything out though given that in the professional sector these all remain theory. Until there's evidence for or against anything, all remains speculative fancy. Some well educated guesses, mostly bullshit.
Concerning YDNA, you still seem to be Misunderstanding the clear evidence these haplogroups(EV13/J2b/R1b) participated in Illyrian ethnogenesis. It's not like we are pulling this stuff out of a hat. Remains were discovered in the lands encompassing "Illyria". Said remains belonged to the father clade of Albanian J2b2 and E-V13. The same haplgroups(regardless if Albanian language has nothing to do with them) are present in Neolithic Balkans and therefore most probably participated in Illyrian ethnogenesis. . The original Illyrians maybe didn't possess it. That's because Proto Illyrians were another culture entirely. Illyrians upon entering the Balkans would have assimilated these lineages.
I personally think Albanians split off from a common ancestor with Greeks, and that they were already natives prior to the arrival of Illyrians, but like the Vlachs, were a isolated pocket of nomadic tribes. Upon intermixing with Illyrians romans Thracians slavs etc, that surviving clan of mountain folk would pool together to form modern Albanians. I imagine Illyrians participated moreso in Albanians and western south Slavic ethnogenesis whereas Macedonia Thracian Dacian noreso absorbed by Macedonians Bulgarians eastern Serbs Romanians etc. it's not one size fits all. The truth and sequence of events in history were not linear but very static.
I always enjoy history and acquisition of information. Please post links that I may read when I have the time.
Thracians have been recorded in the balkans from 3200BC , they have no slav association until AD times
below is a map I created based on the period of 1200BC - 550BC ( before the celtic invasion of Italy )
thracians ruled most of the balkans along with the Greeks ................the Dorians are a puzzle
https://s20.postimg.org/7ms3h8sql/illi_map_bronze.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/rhe53d7y1/)

Dibran
07-10-17, 00:43
Thracians have been recorded in the balkans from 3200BC , they have no slav association until AD times
below is a map I created based on the period of 1200BC - 550BC ( before the celtic invasion of Italy )
thracians ruled most of the balkans along with the Greeks ................the Dorians are a puzzle
https://s20.postimg.org/7ms3h8sql/illi_map_bronze.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/rhe53d7y1/)

i didn't say Slavs were a direct link in a linguistic sense. Just that they absorbed Thracians while Albanians absorbed Illyrians. Though I never knew Thracians stretched to the extent of the whole Balkans. Do you have any reputable sources for this? In all I have read of them they never extended that far west. Do cite the sources if you can.

Nik
07-10-17, 00:52
@Dibran, I gotta hand it to you. You're a patient and kind person. Although deep inside I feel that you wonder why some people don't understand you nor grasp any facts you're throwing at them.

As an American (the understanding and politically correct kind), you probably think it's because of English being their 2nd or 3rd language, but a hidden dark side in you quietly wonders of possible IQ/racism induced barriers.

Garrick
07-10-17, 02:37
That's what I thought. In the end genes will say everything, there is no hiding.
Some will cry afterwards but we have respect genetic truth.

But you deny yourself.

Look at E1b-L618 P.E.R. 5485 BC.

Proto-Illyrians were somewhere in Western Iran, Eastern Anatolia, or surrounding, not in Balkans.

Proto-Illyrians entered in the Balkans 2000 BC.

You can see how big is your mistake, 1 year, + 1 year, + 1 year + 1 year ... + 1 year = 3.485 years.

This E1b which you gave is not Illyrian marker.

I told you when you don't know context you know nothing.

Garrick
07-10-17, 02:57
oh boy

at the end I am from Y-DNA from Africa Homo Sapiens
and from mt DNA from Neantherthal from Caucasus,

so I am an Afro-Asian European,

YOU MISS THE POINT,

Hrvat, go tell your neighbour, that is not I2, that he is not Croat,
even if he lost his father or his grand father in a war for Croatia,

JUST STUPIDITY

He has nationalisic agenda, but it is not so problem, that he don't try put his agenda in absolutistic claims.

I told him several times if he is so sure in his claims why he don't public in any scientific paper.

But he cannot because his absolutic claims has no link with science and he don't have intellectual capacity for science.

Even he does not appreciate science and thinks scientists are not worth to attention.

So he can write what want who cares.

Garrick
07-10-17, 03:24
No serious historians or linguists support the Serbian wet dream of the Caucasus theory. I wouldn't worry too much. Those who have common sense regarding the matter don't entertain the idea of that theory. Those that do usually have an agenda or don't care to do serious research.

Dibran
Don't listen this nationalistic crap.

In Serbia even children in schools learn that Albanians are Illyrians.

For writing about national history every minority has right arrange how thinks, and I agree with it, democratic rights are most important.

But I thinks, and more time I told, Albanians generally, it is not offense, have no critical thinking.

I know that Enver Hoxha hurt the entire society from school system to science to prove that Albanian is Illyrian, and he failed, I show what scientists say although I know that many Albanians don't want hear it.

I don't use Serbian sources, or very rarely, some Serbian scientists claim that Albanians are descendants of Illyrian, but mostly scientists do almost different threads, even national (Serbian) history is not in focus.

Serbs generally, especially intellectuals, are global oriented, yes there are people who try spread nationalistic agenda but they are out of Serbian mainstream.

Garrick
07-10-17, 03:49
Albanian J2 is actually overwhelmingly J2b2-L283 (J-L283). On average it makes up 20-25% of Albanian Y-DNA. The same haplogroup was found in Bronze Age Dalmatia ca. 1550 BC.
Haplogroup R1b makes up 20-25% of Albanian Y-DNA as well. R1b-Z2103 was found in the Vucedol Culture ca. 2725 BC.
http://www.gjenetika.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/ancientDNAFinal-1-905x509.jpg

Source: The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/09/19/135616) (samples: I4331, I3499, I3948)

So all three major Albanian Y-DNA haplogroups in ancient DNA have been found in Western Balkans (Illyrian territory).

No.

Proto-Illyrians entered in the Balkans 2000 BC from Anatalia.

It means E1b-L618, 5485 BC and R1b-Z2103, 2725 BC have nothing with Illyrians.

Illyrians formed 1200 BC, some source claims 1000 BC, some sources 1500 BC, it doesn't matter.

From these three samples only J2b2-L283 could be Mycenaean or Proto-Illyrian, we had polemics and you told that sample is child, I know but and Mycenaeans could have children.

LeBrok
07-10-17, 06:01
No.

Proto-Illyrians entered in the Balkans 2000 BC from Anatalia.

Garrick, how can we possibly know that?

hrvat22
07-10-17, 10:07
But you deny yourself.

Look at E1b-L618 P.E.R. 5485 BC.

Proto-Illyrians were somewhere in Western Iran, Eastern Anatolia, or surrounding, not in Balkans.

Proto-Illyrians entered in the Balkans 2000 BC.

You can see how big is your mistake, 1 year, + 1 year, + 1 year + 1 year ... + 1 year = 3.485 years.

This E1b which you gave is not Illyrian marker.

I told you when you don't know context you know nothing.


How it is not Illyrian marker when it is 4700 years old at same place, and his descendants were there at time of Illyrians.

Ok, descendant mutation of age 2000 years are Illyrian but Serbs and Albanians will continue to be mixed in that subclades. They are male-line brothers, but Serbs come in the 7th century and E1b is not coming from anywhere. This means that carriers of E1b (Albanians) from 7th century until 20th century are assimilated by Serbians.

In which time is assimilation occurred, we will see in the future.



Proto-Illyrians entered in the Balkans 2000 BC from Anatalia

Prove with genetics, far as I know E1b types that exists in Albanians are in Albania 4700 years.

hrvat22
07-10-17, 10:44
Dibran


But, to say all with this branch are specifically Croatian would be incorrect,

https://imghost.io/image/GFG5o

Subclade I-S17250 is one person in White Croatia, historical records confirm arrival of Croats from that area where this mutation occurred or originate.

Since no other nation(tribe) on the planet earth does not have link(historical data) with source of I-S17250 in south Poland and south west Ukraine they can not be anyone's except Croatian.

If it would not be so then same subclade I-S17250 is Rusian, Bulgarian, Croatian etc, etc. and that can not be true because subclade I-S17250 is a one man. If that man and his subclade sons (descendants) mentioned as White Croats then his descendants can not be Russians because that would mean that Croats from Balkan are Russian origin or Bulgarian or Albanian, etc...

The only possible way is around, that all are White Croatian origin (people with subclade I-S17250).

An example is also from a local Croatian area, people with subclade I-S17250 come to Croatia and wider area from same place (south Poland south west Ukraine) at same day, hour and minute.
The first are Slovenes, second are Croats, third are Serbs, fourth are Montenegrins, fifth are Macedonians, sixth are Dalmatians, seventh are Dukljans, eight are Pagans etc..

It is not possible because there are no record of these nations in White Croatia except Croatians.

Nik
07-10-17, 13:34
Garrick, how can we possibly know that?
He has some Illyrian friends.

blevins13
07-10-17, 23:55
He has some Illyrian friends.

Let go back to Greece now...


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Garrick
08-10-17, 00:26
Garrick, how can we possibly know that?

Yes.

Harry Mountain capital volumes I-V, The Celtic Encyclopedia, Vol. I 1998.

Author studied Celts and all people who were linked with Celts in any epoche in history.

Author highlights about Proto-Illyrians that warrior herders of the Yamnaya culture about 2000 BC from the Plateu of Phyrgia in Turkey came to the indigenous people Danubian farmers.

In geographic terms it means from Plateu of Phyrgia in present day Turkey warrior herders via Bosphorus came to the Panonian plain.

But it is very logical, Maciamo wrote a lot about it, and about similarities Mycenaeans with Illyrians.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml
(http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml)
Sile was right about Illyrians in Austria. Mountain writes that in Austria Illyrians were mining salt in Gmunden in BC 1000. What is interesting according Mountain Illyrian warriors with Picts travelled to the Ireland and Britain.

We can speak about Proto-Illyrians in the Panonian plain and Balkans only after before 2000 BC and it is in accordance with genetic data.

We should keep in mind period of existence of Illyrians.

Illyrians developed from Proto-Illyrians about 1200 BC, maybe 100-200 years earlier or later (1500-1000) based on author.

Illyrians ceased to exist as political entity in 3rd century AD, because they were completely Romanized. After that we can speak only about Romanized Illyrians who spoke Latin.

My opinion is When Illyrians became Romanized they were Roman allies and soldiers and participated in different areas of Roman empire, probably the most in areas in present day Italy. Therefore not only in Balkans and in these areas we can find their descendants. In the Balkans their population decreased (several reasons).

If we know that they had similarities with Mycenaeans and their language could not be completely different. Maybe therefore Illyrian was Centum as Greek and not Satem as Thracian, Albanian and Balto Slavic.

LeBrok
08-10-17, 02:33
Author highlights about Proto-Illyrians that warrior herders of the Yamnaya culture about 2000 BC from the Plateu of Phyrgia in Turkey came to the indigenous people Danubian farmers.

Extremely speculative. The same way we can say that proto-Slavs entered Eastern Europe in 2500 BC. Which is false, there were CW who expended on Northern Europe, from which eventually after 2000 years and additional mixing proto Slavs happened.
If we are talking about Illyrians, perhaps in the future we can reconstruct their cultural/language movement, perhaps indeed from Anatolia. We can reconstruct how much local genetic and cultural input they got, and I bet it will be big majority. And see if there were elements from IE from Northern Europe. Probably some too.
Think spectrum and probabilities. Don't be convinced and assured by some historian who is guessing the whole thing on few artifacts from the past, and paints it as black and white issue.


It means E1b-L618, 5485 BC and R1b-Z2103, 2725 BC have nothing with Illyrians.

Illyrians formed 1200 BC, some source claims 1000 BC, some sources 1500 BC, it doesn't matter. Actually if Illyrians formed in Balkans 1200 BC, the E1b-L618 has a lot to do with them and with other haplogroups that existed during their ethos, in their area. Even if it doesn't have much to do with prot-Illyrians (language/elite wise - if true) from Anatolis, it does with Illyrians from Balkans.

Garrick
08-10-17, 03:34
Think spectrum and probabilities. Don't be convinced and assured by some historian who is guessing the whole thing on few artifacts from the past, and paints it as black and white issue.


I can agree with you but partially.

However, there are some facts and parameters based on which researchers do studies.

Warrior herders could not came 3000 or 4000 BC, and it is important information that they came from Turkey to Balkans.



Actually if Illyrians formed in Balkans 1200 BC, the E1b-L618 has a lot to do with them and with other haplogroups that existed during their ethos, in their area. Even if it doesn't have much to do with prot-Illyrians (language/elite wise - if true) from Anatolis, it does with Illyrians from Balkans.

But it is important to know about what we discuss.

Because here people mention 4700 years, 7500 years (5500 BC) etc.

Do you agree that something found in these times nothing to do with Illyrians.

...
It is very important to know context.

If we speak about Proto-Illyrians we have 2000 BC (if it is not too precise we can add or decrease but not excessive) and direction from Turkey, what is important too.

In case of Proto-Thracians we have Early Bronze Age, what is much earlier, probably 3000-2700 BC and direction was from Ukraine.

If we know time and direction we can much easier identify which haplogroups IE populations could bring and with whom natives they could mix.

Illyrians and Thracians had different paths, arrived in different epoches to the Balkans and surrounding and they were different in genetics. Yes after it could come to some mixing but differences have remained. And languages were not same.

Yetos
08-10-17, 03:47
maybe hey we're. Maybe they weren't. Like I said, no evidence for or against. Very little of anything but sparse words exist. There is no solid consensus because there is no abundant evidence. Just fragments to which people attempt well educated guesses based on historical documentation which itself is a written work that may not be completely reliable. Hence the reason for archeology to confirm or reject historical claims. As any individual with common sense should understand, history is not a stand in for reality, but a perspective from the dominant tribe. Propaganda of the time if you will. Point is your claim is just as flimsy as that of Albanians claiming a connection. It's just guesswork until evidence is available. Until that it's all a waste of bickering. If you cared to read anything I said, I stated E-V13 is Neolithic not Illyrian. I also stated as would any common sense individual, that e-V13 most definitely participated in the ethnogenesis of Illyrians as did they many other tribes who absorbed their peoples. It is irrelevant whether or not Albanian has anything to do with the language. I have repeated this over and over. The fact remains, a good majority of Albanian men are paternally descended from Neolithic natives. Regardless of whether or not we spoke Illyrian or them pre indo European. Fact is fact, Albanians are largely natives. But I know I am speaking to a wall because you will resort to forming an argument where no argument should even exist considering there is no evidence to argue over. Just fanciful desires.

with bold and underline, I agree,
a % of modern Albania is from sourounding area,
but as to all populations, from different times.

all over the world, nativity, has to do with time,
and most of times leaves marks to the future,
except in cases that scientists are afraid, like Sentinelese people.

Garrick
09-10-17, 23:33
E1b CTS5856, source of CTS5856 is in Albanian hills, its descendants live there for 4700 years and today they call themselves Albanias.


But it can be entirely wrong, nobody can know without samples.

Your claim that they were in Albanian hills 4700 years ago, if you don’t have samples from a period 4700 years ago in these hills, is only speculation. You look static, nothing change in time but in real life we see process, and everything is changing.

Look at example, one population P before 1000 years lived on territory m and all inhabitants left this territory and settled in territory n. Someone who finds today’s state of haplogroups in territory n and analyze results can think according findings that population P lives in this territory for example entire 5000 years. But it is completely wrong. Only samples from different epoches in areas m and n will give us real idea what happened.

So situation about CTS5856 can be entirely different.

There is something different possibility. CTS5856 emerged somewhere in Alps possible in Germany, or Switzerland or surrounding. Carriers of this haplogroup later moved probably along river Danube. Where and when happened mix CTS5856 carriers and Indo-Europeans who came from direction of Ukraine. It is possible in Early Bronze age 3000-2700 BC in Eastern Hungary, Southeastern Slovakia furthermost west of Ukraine or surrounding (we should take in consideration in this time population who created Proto-Illyrians is somewhere in Eastern Anatolia/Western Iran, they went via Phyrgia Plateu and Bosphurs in the Balkans about 2000 BC). After that Direction in the Balkans carriers of CTS5658 could be eastern route from the north to east of Balkans and after in several directions. If it is so, this haplogroup could not be in Albanian hills 4700 years before, since it was somewhere in Eastern Hungary, Southeastern Slovakia and surrounding in that time.

Leka
10-10-17, 08:07
This one is found.

Where on what sample, and do you have the kit #?

hrvat22
10-10-17, 08:45
But it can be entirely wrong, nobody can know without samples.

Your claim that they were in Albanian hills 4700 years ago, if you don’t have samples from a period 4700 years ago in these hills, is only speculation. You look static, nothing change in time but in real life we see process, and everything is changing.

Look at example, one population P before 1000 years lived on territory m and all inhabitants left this territory and settled in territory n. Someone who finds today’s state of haplogroups in territory n and analyze results can think according findings that population P lives in this territory for example entire 5000 years. But it is completely wrong. Only samples from different epoches in areas m and n will give us real idea what happened.

So situation about CTS5856 can be entirely different.

There is something different possibility. CTS5856 emerged somewhere in Alps possible in Germany, or Switzerland or surrounding. Carriers of this haplogroup later moved probably along river Danube. Where and when happened mix CTS5856 carriers and Indo-Europeans who came from direction of Ukraine. It is possible in Early Bronze age 3000-2700 BC in Eastern Hungary, Southeastern Slovakia furthermost west of Ukraine or surrounding (we should take in consideration in this time population who created Proto-Illyrians is somewhere in Eastern Anatolia/Western Iran, they went via Phyrgia Plateu and Bosphurs in the Balkans about 2000 BC). After that Direction in the Balkans carriers of CTS5658 could be eastern route from the north to east of Balkans and after in several directions. If it is so, this haplogroup could not be in Albanian hills 4700 years before, since it was somewhere in Eastern Hungary, Southeastern Slovakia and surrounding in that time.

For now we have statement of co-administrator FTDNA E-M35 project who claims that CTS5856 originate in north Albaninan hills, since descendants of this subclade exist in that area this means that Albanians with this subclade are autochthonous in Albania and wider, and do not come from Anatolia.

For now it is fact, how it will be in the future we will see.

LeBrok
10-10-17, 16:53
For now we have statement of co-administrator FTDNA E-M35 project who claims that CTS5856 originate in north Albaninan hills, since descendants of this subclade exist in that area this means that Albanians with this subclade are autochthonous in Albania and wider, and do not come from Anatolia.

For now it is fact, how it will be in the future we will see.
You are making same mistake as Garrick, thinking that the all elements of today's Albanians existed in same place in the past. For example CTS5856 could exist here and was a part of EEF farming community since Neolithic. However the language together with Indo European population, which gave them a big part of today's authenticity, could have come from Anatolia during Bronze Age.


that CTS5856 originate in north Albaninan hills, since descendants of this subclade exist in that area this means that Albanians with this subclade are autochthonous in Albania Correctly it should read that CTS5856 originated where Albania is today. There was no Albania when it originated.

Leka
10-10-17, 19:07
You are making same mistake as Garrick, thinking that the all elements of today's Albanians existed in same place in the past. For example CTS5856 could exist here and was a part of EEF farming community since Neolithic. However the language together with Indo European population, which gave them a big part of today's authenticity, could have come from Anatolia during Bronze Age.
Correctly it should read that CTS5856 originated where Albania is today. There was no Albania when it originated.

You're making basically the same mistake as well. No indo-European language came from Anatolia let alone Albanian. Get on with the program people, it's not 1800s anymore.

Garrick
10-10-17, 21:18
LeBrok
Language question is one of main question for researchers, haplogroups can do important contribution as other disciplines to get right picture.

Creating Bulgarians, Albanians, Serbs and Romanians is part of same process of migrations 6-8 century.

Natives are assimilated in three cases except in the case of Romanians.

Scientists very precise determined two areas from which Albanias (Shqiptarët) as speakers of Albanian language (Gjuha Sqipe) could come to areas of today's Albania and determined that some third area is not possible.

All areas except these two above (northern) the Jirecek Line were Romanized and there people spoke Latin, southern of Jirecek Line is spoken Greek.

Leka
10-10-17, 23:32
LeBrok
Language question is one of main question for researchers, haplogroups can do important contribution as other disciplines to get right picture.

Creating Bulgarians, Albanians, Serbs and Romanians is part of same process of migrations 6-8 century.

Natives are assimilated in three cases except in the case of Romanians.

Scientists very precise determined two areas from which Albanias (Shqiptarët) as speakers of Albanian language (Gjuha Sqipe) could come to areas of today's Albania and determined that some third area is not possible.

All areas except these two above (northern) the Jirecek Line were Romanized and there people spoke Latin, southern of Jirecek Line is spoken Greek.

Search your Iranian roots and stop talking about Albanians in every freaking post of yours.

Nik
10-10-17, 23:46
I don't see a problem with Lebrok's statement since he used "could have". I've never actually read anything illogical from him so far, so yeah one option could be Anatolia and everyone who claims confidently otherwise has an agenda.

One of the biggest BS ever is how some people are 100% sure that EVERYONE in the Balkans/Illyricum was Latinised when there's no science in the world that can prove it besides the time machine of course.

Now I'd love to read the post of some really knowledgeable member on E-V13 in Greece as I always suspected that its sort of related to a usually mountain dwelling more-Northern population similar to Albanians and Montenegrins. It's only in Peloponnesus that I see people resembling more the aforementioned ethnicities.

LeBrok
11-10-17, 03:48
You're making basically the same mistake as well. No indo-European language came from Anatolia let alone Albanian. Get on with the program people, it's not 1800s anymore.How can you be so sure about this? It is a common knowledge that IE languages were attested in Anatolia before they existed in Balkans. If they really moved into Balkans, we don't know that, but technically it is very likely.

LeBrok
11-10-17, 03:49
Search your Iranian roots and stop talking about Albanians in every freaking post of yours.
Chill dude. You don't need to engage any poster, if you can't control your temper.

hrvat22
11-10-17, 18:52
LeBrok
Language question is one of main question for researchers, haplogroups can do important contribution as other disciplines to get right picture.

Creating Bulgarians, Albanians, Serbs and Romanians is part of same process of migrations 6-8 century.

Natives are assimilated in three cases except in the case of Romanians.

Scientists very precise determined two areas from which Albanias (Shqiptarët) as speakers of Albanian language (Gjuha Sqipe) could come to areas of today's Albania and determined that some third area is not possible.

All areas except these two above (northern) the Jirecek Line were Romanized and there people spoke Latin, southern of Jirecek Line is spoken Greek.

Language has no connection with origin, 15% of Serbians with E1b who are brothers by male line with Albanians they speak Serbian while their brothers speak Albanian.

An example is Croatian I2a, which is not an Indo-European origin, and today everyone with that haplogroup in Croatia speaks Croatian Slavic Indo-European language.

hrvat22
11-10-17, 19:13
You are making same mistake as Garrick, thinking that the all elements of today's Albanians existed in same place in the past. For example CTS5856 could exist here and was a part of EEF farming community since Neolithic. However the language together with Indo European population, which gave them a big part of today's authenticity, could have come from Anatolia during Bronze Age.
Correctly it should read that CTS5856 originated where Albania is today. There was no Albania when it originated.

We in Croatia were Slavs, Dalmatians, Vlachs, Croats, Austrians, Venetians, Hungarians...

But we call ourselves Croats, today Italians call as Slavs but we are Croats, if Albania is mentioned for the first time let's say year 1328. that does not mean that Albanians have not lived there thousand years earlier, only then some people call them Illyrians, Chinese or Afghans. But these are same people in the same place.

LeBrok
11-10-17, 19:14
Language has no connection with origin, 15% of Serbians with E1b who are brothers by male line with Albanians they speak Serbian while their brothers speak Albanian.

An example is Croatian I2a, which is not an Indo-European origin, and today everyone with that haplogroup in Croatia speaks Croatian Slavic Indo-European language.Just listen to yourself. You are referring to Y DNA, which is 2% of whole DNA, as it makes a person and his origin. You are talking about 2% of a person, and only on half of population. Y DNA doesn't make anyone a brother. I have R1b and many Nigerians do, but it doesn't make us brothers or even far far cousins. R1b doesn't point you to the origin of Nigeriens, but only to origin of 2% of single male Nigerian. There are many instances that Y DNA correlates with genetic history of most of autosomal DNA in a person, but it doesn't have too, and in some instances it is very misleading. So be careful about your numbers and conclusions.

hrvat22
11-10-17, 19:19
Just listen to yourself. You are referring to Y DNA, which is 2% of whole DNA, as it makes a person and his origin. You are talking about 2% of a person, and only on half of population. Y DNA doesn't make anyone a brother. I have R1b and many Nigerians do, but it doesn't make us brothers or even far far cousins. R1b doesn't point you to the origin of Nigeriens, but only to origin of 2% of single male Nigerian. There are many instances that Y DNA correlates with genetic history of most of autosomal DNA in a person, but it doesn't have too, and in some instances it is very misleading. So be careful about your numbers and conclusions.

If you have same subclade as they have in Nigeria then you are brothers by male line, what haplotype has to do with color of the skin, language, size of skull, etc.

LeBrok
11-10-17, 19:23
We in Croatia were Slavs, Dalmatians, Vlachs, Croats, Austrians, Venetians, Hungarians...

But we call ourselves Croats, today Italians call as Slavs but we are Croats, if Albania is mentioned for the first time let's say year 1328. that does not mean that Albanians have not lived there thousand years earlier, only then some people call them Illyrians, Chinese or Afghans. But these are same people in the same place. Now you are referring only to genetic aspect of ethnicity. I'm fine with this. And to be on same wavelength you need to agree that at some point they became genetical Albanians. Genetically very close to what they represent now. In this case we would need to agree that they formed sometime in Bronze Age or maybe in Iron Age, when IE population who came from the Steppe or Anatolia mixed with farmer population of Balkans. Or perhaps, the truth is that the "final" Albanians only popped up in Early Medieval times when they mixed with wave of Slavs?

davef
11-10-17, 19:24
I never really understood the hype behind y-DNA. As said, it's a tiny part of the genome.

LeBrok
11-10-17, 19:28
If you have same subclade as they have in Nigeria then you are brothers by male line, what haplotype has to do with color of the skin, language, size of skull, etc.
Please take your time to formulate thoughtful answers, and don't try to create your own definition of "a brother". We are not going to get to far in understanding of issues at hand.

hrvat22
11-10-17, 19:58
Please take your time to formulate thoughtful answers, and don't try to create your own definition of "a brother". We are not going to get to far in understanding of issues at hand.

If Serbs and Albanians live couple meters away from each other and have same E1b subclade are they brothers by male line? Yes, they are.. what's the problem?

Do you know Serbian history?, but not one from a crystal ball.

When some power (medieval Serbian state) stretched over Albanian areas it is logical that local population is assimilated, and it is now evident in genetics.

It's not a science fiction.

Johane Derite
12-10-17, 01:07
I never really understood the hype behind y-DNA. As said, it's a tiny part of the genome.Well, quantitatively it's a tiny part of the genome. Qualitatively the Y chromosome is EXTREMELY significant however. This single chromosome codes for 50% of all sexual dimporphism. The forces of selection do not act in accordance with how big it is compared to others. The pupil of the eye accounts for a very small percentage of the surface area of the human body, whereas the armpit has a much higher percentage, therefore it must be more important?Quantitative judgements mean nothing if the issue is a qualitative one.Sorry if I come across as too invested, but this fallacy happens all the time here.

Garrick
12-10-17, 01:18
I know that now something what I will say will be strongly criticized by one part of the members. There are two options: to be silent and wait that one day someone else exposes this or to say. Responsibility exists and also reverence. Forming Romanians, Serbs, Bulgarians and Albanians since 6th century were processes which happened at the same time and these processes are parts of same big process shaping the Balkans. Thracians and Illyrians are completely Romanized earlier, in 2-3 century, practically they adopt Latin and have ceased to exist as political entities except two areas in Thracian world (label them n and m) which scientists determined precisely. The oldest in the Balkans in terms of the people (nation in modern term) are the Greeks, because they are formed much earlier. People and tribes had impact on each others, especially in terms migrations, progressions, and withdrawals, of course there were a lot of others impacts including haplogroups. Now we can have question impacts on forming Albanians. Some Greeks are assimilated in that processes, they lived mostly in some coastal regions of today’s Albania what is logical, where is seaside someone can find Greeks. Descendants of Romanized Illyrians and some descendants of Romans and people from present day Italy, all of them spoke Latin, assimilated too. Serbs could have any impact, Serbian lands have changed and encompassed areas of today’s Albania. Process of forming of Romanians was complex, there were a lot of newcomers, but Latin language is retained, but in region n out of Romanized Dacia in Carpathian and wider surrounding lived Free Dacians, Carpi and Costoboces, and they saved their original language. They migrated towards south and almost surely (maybe even they were elite) had participation in areas of present day Albania but unfortunately in their homeland Carpi completely extinct, also probably Costoboces, and there are no their descendants in today's Romania. Only samples from time when Free Dacians lived in their area can give us right picture about their contribution today's Albanian population in terms of haplogroups. And we know that Bulgarians had biggest impact. Bulgarian Slavs pushed tribes from area m which is not Romanized (which is very precisely determined in today's Bulgaria) to areas in today's Albania. Bulgarians ruled of area in present day Albania several centuries. Who wants she or he can analyze Bulgarian and Albanian haplogroups and can relatively easy determine similarities. And determine which haplogroup was dominant among Shqipetarët elite and responsible for Albanian language (Gjuha Shqipe) in time when they came from m to areas of today’s Albania and assimilated local population. (And there are mixed n-m opinions about Free Dacians who moved under pressures from n to m mixed with locals in m in today’s Bulgaria and, pushed from Bulgarians, came to areas in today's Albania). And Albanians slower became integrated people compared to others because they didn’t have dynasty.

davef
12-10-17, 01:36
Well, quantitatively it's a tiny part of the genome. Qualitatively the Y chromosome is EXTREMELY significant however. This single chromosome codes for 50% of all sexual dimporphism. The forces of selection do not act in accordance with how big it is compared to others. The pupil of the eye accounts for a very small percentage of the surface area of the human body, whereas the armpit has a much higher percentage, therefore it must be more important?Quantitative judgements mean nothing if the issue is a qualitative one.Sorry if I come across as too invested, but this fallacy happens all the time here.

Well ok that's interesting and reasonable. I like the analogy, that's clever.

Nik
12-10-17, 12:03
I know that now something what I will say will be strongly criticized by one part of the members. There are two options: to be silent and wait that one day someone else exposes this or to say. Responsibility exists and also reverence. Forming Romanians, Serbs, Bulgarians and Albanians since 6th century were processes which happened at the same time and these processes are parts of same big process shaping the Balkans. Thracians and Illyrians are completely Romanized earlier, in 2-3 century, practically they adopt Latin and have ceased to exist as political entities except two areas in Thracian world (label them n and m) which scientists determined precisely. The oldest in the Balkans in terms of the people (nation in modern term) are the Greeks, because they are formed much earlier. People and tribes had impact on each others, especially in terms migrations, progressions, and withdrawals, of course there were a lot of others impacts including haplogroups. Now we can have question impacts on forming Albanians. Some Greeks are assimilated in that processes, they lived mostly in some coastal regions of today’s Albania what is logical, where is seaside someone can find Greeks. Descendants of Romanized Illyrians and some descendants of Romans and people from present day Italy, all of them spoke Latin, assimilated too. Serbs could have any impact, Serbian lands have changed and encompassed areas of today’s Albania. Process of forming of Romanians was complex, there were a lot of newcomers, but Latin language is retained, but in region n out of Romanized Dacia in Carpathian and wider surrounding lived Free Dacians, Carpi and Costoboces, and they saved their original language. They migrated towards south and almost surely (maybe even they were elite) had participation in areas of present day Albania but unfortunately in their homeland Carpi completely extinct, also probably Costoboces, and there are no their descendants in today's Romania. Only samples from time when Free Dacians lived in their area can give us right picture about their contribution today's Albanian population in terms of haplogroups. And we know that Bulgarians had biggest impact. Bulgarian Slavs pushed tribes from area m which is not Romanized (which is very precisely determined in today's Bulgaria) to areas in today's Albania. Bulgarians ruled of area in present day Albania several centuries. Who wants she or he can analyze Bulgarian and Albanian haplogroups and can relatively easy determine similarities. And determine which haplogroup was dominant among Shqipetarët elite and responsible for Albanian language (Gjuha Shqipe) in time when they came from m to areas of today’s Albania and assimilated local population. (And there are mixed n-m opinions about Free Dacians who moved under pressures from n to m mixed with locals in m in today’s Bulgaria and, pushed from Bulgarians, came to areas in today's Albania). And Albanians slower became integrated people compared to others because they didn’t have dynasty.Again the BS that 100% of Illyrians and Thracians were Latinised. As if the Romans conducted a full scale study on the languages spoken in the Balkans and were even able to rule out cases of bilingualism. Just food for thought (for others, not Garrick), the Thracian Bessi were believed to have retained their language until late. That is an indicator that it could have been the case with many highland clans/tribes or as I said earlier, many could have been bilingual. As for the other crap of Carpi assimilating the locals in modern Albania: 1) How come Albanians have Latin influence since BC? 2) Who assimilated the Albanian speaking locals in modern Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro? They're quite far from modern Albania. 3) How come the Carpi and Dorians shared similar words?I don't aim to convince you Garrick, because it is clear that you dont want to be convinced as it doesn't fit your agenda, the agenda you've been developing in your head since you were a kid. You seem to weak to finally wake up after decades of hating and judging Albanians and say "I was wrong the whole time. They are indeed indigenous in the Balkans (not Carpathians)".

blevins13
14-10-17, 05:09
I know that now something what I will say will be strongly criticized by one part of the members. There are two options: to be silent and wait that one day someone else exposes this or to say. Responsibility exists and also reverence. Forming Romanians, Serbs, Bulgarians and Albanians since 6th century were processes which happened at the same time and these processes are parts of same big process shaping the Balkans. Thracians and Illyrians are completely Romanized earlier, in 2-3 century, practically they adopt Latin and have ceased to exist as political entities except two areas in Thracian world (label them n and m) which scientists determined precisely. The oldest in the Balkans in terms of the people (nation in modern term) are the Greeks, because they are formed much earlier. People and tribes had impact on each others, especially in terms migrations, progressions, and withdrawals, of course there were a lot of others impacts including haplogroups. Now we can have question impacts on forming Albanians. Some Greeks are assimilated in that processes, they lived mostly in some coastal regions of today’s Albania what is logical, where is seaside someone can find Greeks. Descendants of Romanized Illyrians and some descendants of Romans and people from present day Italy, all of them spoke Latin, assimilated too. Serbs could have any impact, Serbian lands have changed and encompassed areas of today’s Albania. Process of forming of Romanians was complex, there were a lot of newcomers, but Latin language is retained, but in region n out of Romanized Dacia in Carpathian and wider surrounding lived Free Dacians, Carpi and Costoboces, and they saved their original language. They migrated towards south and almost surely (maybe even they were elite) had participation in areas of present day Albania but unfortunately in their homeland Carpi completely extinct, also probably Costoboces, and there are no their descendants in today's Romania. Only samples from time when Free Dacians lived in their area can give us right picture about their contribution today's Albanian population in terms of haplogroups. And we know that Bulgarians had biggest impact. Bulgarian Slavs pushed tribes from area m which is not Romanized (which is very precisely determined in today's Bulgaria) to areas in today's Albania. Bulgarians ruled of area in present day Albania several centuries. Who wants she or he can analyze Bulgarian and Albanian haplogroups and can relatively easy determine similarities. And determine which haplogroup was dominant among Shqipetarët elite and responsible for Albanian language (Gjuha Shqipe) in time when they came from m to areas of today’s Albania and assimilated local population. (And there are mixed n-m opinions about Free Dacians who moved under pressures from n to m mixed with locals in m in today’s Bulgaria and, pushed from Bulgarians, came to areas in today's Albania). And Albanians slower became integrated people compared to others because they didn’t have dynasty.

Probably from the Serbian prospective it make sense....can you identify what type of Y-dna was brought by Carpi in the Balkans that is present in modern Albanians....


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MOESAN
15-10-17, 16:21
No.

Proto-Illyrians entered in the Balkans 2000 BC from Anatalia.

It means E1b-L618, 5485 BC and R1b-Z2103, 2725 BC have nothing with Illyrians.

Illyrians formed 1200 BC, some source claims 1000 BC, some sources 1500 BC, it doesn't matter.

From these three samples only J2b2-L283 could be Mycenaean or Proto-Illyrian, we had polemics and you told that sample is child, I know but and Mycenaeans could have children.

I have no point to date about Illyrians (It spite me). But for reasoning: what among these 3 dates of apparition of a tiny sample ('tiny' is a gentle word here) allow you to think Illyrians - supposed formed about the 1200 BC - had only (possibly) Y-J2b2-L283 ancestors? We are speaking here of a region of Europe and a time when the clans "mono-Y-haplo" seemed disappearing or already disappeared: what proves you (and others) Proto-Illyrians had not incorporated other tribes - predecessors - with other Y-lineages??? The same for other tribes or "nations" of those times.
Or I have not understood your reasoning an d the excuse me.

rafc
15-10-17, 17:51
I see I'm quoted a few times in this thread. I'm happy there's such a big interest in V13! I would say at this point that the origins of V13 and CTS5856 are very likely in Southern Balkans, but whether it was the Eastern or Western is still an open question. The fact that one of the two V13 subclades, PH1246, has been found in the Western Balkans and Greece and not in the Eastern Balkans might suggest that the latter is less likely. PH1246 has been found in clans from the border of Montenegro and Albania, and at first glance they seemed unrelated. Now however it seems they might have splitted later than we thought. but it's also worth noting that haplogroup diversity is higher in Bulgaria (and some cases, Greece) as a lot of smaller subclades of CTS5856 have been found in Bulgaria. Off course all of this might have been influenced by later events. As long as we don't get any Ancient DNA we'll keep guessing. But given the recent research project I have high hopes. I also know of an upcoming study that will be very helpful to better understand the distribution of Albanian haplogroups, but unfortunately we won't have the same details from other regions to compare.

As the thread is specifically about Greece I'll add that a lot of different subclades are found in Greece. Some seem more typical for Greece and show a large correlation to Greek colonisation: Z16663 and BY6527. Despite being rare in other parts of the Balkans we know of Z16663 in Pontic Greeks, Greeks from Asia Minor, and also from Sicily.

Trojet
15-10-17, 21:39
I also know of an upcoming study that will be very helpful to better understand the distribution of Albanian haplogroups, but unfortunately we won't have the same details from other regions to compare.

Hi Rafc. Do you know any details about this Albanian Y-haplogroup study. Also, is it perhaps going to be NGS?

rafc
15-10-17, 22:04
Hi Rafc. Do you know any details about this Albanian Y-haplogroup study. Also, is it perhaps going to be NGS?
Sadly, no NGS. But I have to correct myself as the study will in fact have data from Greece, Sicily and Southern Italy also. After this study was published: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-01802-4?WT.feed_name=subjects_genetics I contacted the author about the detailed results as I know the geno 2.0 chip covers Y-SNPs. She told me they were still working on the Y dna results which I assume means a follow up article. While the Geno 2.0 doesn't cover some important clades (like S7461) it at least covers some V13 subclades. It will also be useful to see the J2 and R1b-Z2103 results. I have no idea when the article might be published.

Garrick
16-10-17, 21:55
If you have same subclade as they have in Nigeria then you are brothers by male line, what haplotype has to do with color of the skin, language, size of skull, etc.

When someone knows context (#206) dice are easy to stack.

Carriers of E-V13 in these hills, about you speak, if they were there, they were Romanized till 3rd century and they spoke Latin, that there were no later changes and newcomers, they would be probably Italians today.

Things changed 6-9 century.

Who assimilated bearers of older or younger subclades, who cares.

Bulgarians were superpower, everyone can see in 9-10th century which big territory they had, they had a key influence on relocation Albanians (Shqiptarët ) from an area in Bulgaria (scientists very precisely determined this area) to present day Albania.

Bulgarian empire 9-10 century

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bul_ts/45329411/7369/7369_original.png

Leka
17-10-17, 04:56
How can you be so sure about this? It is a common knowledge that IE languages were attested in Anatolia before they existed in Balkans. If they really moved into Balkans, we don't know that, but technically it is very likely.
Just because they were attested there first doesn't necessarily mean they existed there before, or that they made their way into the Balkans from Anatolia. Steppe groups started making their way into the Balkans way before they were ever attested there, just judging by the material culture - let alone now even solidly confirmed by the R1b-Z2103 Vucedol sample dating to early bronze age (2725 BC).

Nik
17-10-17, 12:57
When someone knows context (#206) dice are easy to stack.

Carriers of E-V13 in these hills, about you speak, if they were there, they were Romanized till 3rd century and they spoke Latin, that there were no later changes and newcomers, they would be probably Italians today.

Things changed 6-9 century.

Who assimilated bearers of older or younger subclades, who cares.

Bulgarians were superpower, everyone can see in 9-10th century which big territory they had, they had a key influence on relocation Albanians (Shqiptarët ) from an area in Bulgaria (scientists very precisely determined this area) to present day Albania.

Bulgarian empire 9-10 century

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bul_ts/45329411/7369/7369_original.png
Every month you become a fanatic supporter of some new theory you read who-knows-where :D

But there's no way you will accept the easiest explanation possible even though E-V13, J2b2, and R1b make up around 90% of Albania's haplogroups.

These Bulgarian led Carpi of yours must have been some highly civilized and influential bunch of max 1000 people that spread their culture and language through diffusion, or they were God like fighters that subdued hundreds of thousands in a matter of months that historiographers didn't even notice them.

Hey where is this place in Bulgaria that our usurpers come from? And when and where did they settle first, North, Central, or South Albania?

Garrick
19-10-17, 01:10
Every month you become a fanatic supporter of some new theory you

read who-knows-where

But there's no way you will accept the easiest explanation possible even though E-V13, J2b2, and R1b make up around 90% of Albania's haplogroups.

These Bulgarian led Carpi of yours must have been some highly civilized and influential bunch of max 1000 people that spread their culture and language through diffusion, or they were God like fighters that subdued hundreds of thousands in a matter of months that historiographers didn't even notice them.

Hey where is this place in Bulgaria that our usurpers come from? And when and where did they settle first, North, Central, or South Albania?

No.

Scientists determined long ago and new scientific papers confirmed.

For Albanians (Sqiptarët) who spoke Albanian (Gjuha Sqipe) are possible only two locations from which they came to present day Albania (in the second of half of first millennium).

m: an area in Bulgaria (confirmed in genetics term, Albanians have relatives in Bulgaria)

n: Moldova area in Romania and surrounding (in parts of Ukraine and Moldavia), area of Free
Dacians (it is not confirmed genetically because all Free Dacians extinct from their areas, their descendants could be found maybe in other locations in the Balkans, Hungary, or Italy but the best way is to determine their haplogroup samples in the epoch when they lived in their historical areas and compare with Albanians)

So, we know using multidisciplinary approach Albanians (Shqiptarët) came from an area in Bulgaria, but we don’t know yet if Carpi (and maybe Costoboces) participated in Albanians.

(More time say again I don’t use Serbian sources, and nothing about what I write is from Serbian literature, Serbian researchers are mostly globalists and not interested for national threads, there are lot good papers for example about development of tolerance toward diversity or history of different groups in society what is very good for democracy but cannot be using in these threads.)

Leka
19-10-17, 03:49
No.

Scientists determined long ago and new scientific papers confirmed.

For Albanians (Sqiptarët) who spoke Albanian (Gjuha Sqipe) are possible only two locations from which they came to present day Albania (in the second of half of first millennium).

m: an area in Bulgaria (confirmed in genetics term, Albanians have relatives in Bulgaria)

n: Moldova area in Romania and surrounding (in parts of Ukraine and Moldavia), area of Free
Dacians (it is not confirmed genetically because all Free Dacians extinct from their areas, their descendants could be found maybe in other locations in the Balkans, Hungary, or Italy but the best way is to determine their haplogroup samples in the epoch when they lived in their historical areas and compare with Albanians)

So, we know using multidisciplinary approach Albanians (Shqiptarët) came from an area in Bulgaria, but we don’t know yet if Carpi (and maybe Costoboces) participated in Albanians.

(More time say again I don’t use Serbian sources, and nothing about what I write is from Serbian literature, Serbian researchers are mostly globalists and not interested for national threads, there are lot good papers for example about development of tolerance toward diversity or history of different groups in society what is very good for democracy but cannot be using in these threads.)

Oh yeah, confirmed you say, can we see the data how they have confirmed it? So Serbian 'scientists' seem to have finally settled for Bulgaria. I guess as long as it's not Kosova/Albania/Montenegro or any other region predating their arrival makes sense to them.

Nik
19-10-17, 22:07
No.

Scientists determined long ago and new scientific papers confirmed.

For Albanians (Sqiptarët) who spoke Albanian (Gjuha Sqipe) are possible only two locations from which they came to present day Albania (in the second of half of first millennium).

m: an area in Bulgaria (confirmed in genetics term, Albanians have relatives in Bulgaria)

n: Moldova area in Romania and surrounding (in parts of Ukraine and Moldavia), area of Free
Dacians (it is not confirmed genetically because all Free Dacians extinct from their areas, their descendants could be found maybe in other locations in the Balkans, Hungary, or Italy but the best way is to determine their haplogroup samples in the epoch when they lived in their historical areas and compare with Albanians)

So, we know using multidisciplinary approach Albanians (Shqiptarët) came from an area in Bulgaria, but we don’t know yet if Carpi (and maybe Costoboces) participated in Albanians.

(More time say again I don’t use Serbian sources, and nothing about what I write is from Serbian literature, Serbian researchers are mostly globalists and not interested for national threads, there are lot good papers for example about development of tolerance toward diversity or history of different groups in society what is very good for democracy but cannot be using in these threads.)
Say hi to our relatives in Bulgaria.

Bye.

Nik
19-10-17, 22:13
Oh yeah, confirmed you say, can we see the data how they have confirmed it? So Serbian 'scientists' seem to have finally settled for Bulgaria. I guess as long as it's not Kosova/Albania/Montenegro or any other region predating their arrival makes sense to them.
He's basically sure that all Illyrians were Latinized but some Thracians in Bulgaria weren't either Latinized nor Hellenized. Very convenient.

He can sleep quietly as long as Albanians are anything but Illyrians, otherwise we can claim "his" lands.

Trojet
20-10-17, 00:02
No.
Scientists determined long ago and new scientific papers confirmed.

For Albanians (Sqiptarët) who spoke Albanian (Gjuha Sqipe) are possible only two locations from which they came to present day Albania (in the second of half of first millennium).

m: an area in Bulgaria (confirmed in genetics term, Albanians have relatives in Bulgaria)

n: Moldova area in Romania and surrounding (in parts of Ukraine and Moldavia), area of Free
Dacians

Of course, confirmed by "Serbian Scientists" from the Serbian forum Poreklo :laughing:

Garrick
20-10-17, 00:23
Oh yeah, confirmed you say, can we see the data how they have confirmed it? So Serbian 'scientists' seem to have finally settled for Bulgaria. I guess as long as it's not Kosova/Albania/Montenegro or any other region predating their arrival makes sense to them.

Completely wrong.

I said more time, I don't use Serbian sources, scientists who research about I say are not Serbian, not Croatian, not Macedonian, not ex Yugoslav completely, and not Albanian.

Do you know how scientists publish papers in scientific journals, and what reviews the papers go through.


Of course, confirmed by "Serbian Scientists" from the Serbian forum Poreklo

It looks like you a lot more read "Poreklo" than I, probably you know Serbian.

No, "Poreklo" is not my source of information, only (non-Serbian) scientific papers in (non-Serbian) journals and (non-Serbian) scientific books.

Trojet
20-10-17, 00:44
Completely wrong.

I said more time, I don't use Serbian sources, scientists who research about I say are not Serbian, not Croatian, not Macedonian, not ex Yugoslav completely, and not Albanian.

Do you know how scientists publish papers in scientific journals, and what reviews the papers go through.

So why don't you give us the scientific source that "genetically confirmed" or "determined" there is only two possible areas Albanians "came" from, one of them being Bulgaria and the other Moldova.



It looks like you a lot more read "Poreklo" than I, probably you know Serbian.

No, "Poreklo" is not my source of information, only (non-Serbian) scientific papers in (non-Serbian) journals and (non-Serbian) scientific books.

As a hobbyist in this field I try to read any and all sources possible. There is a reason why I have proven you wrong and caught you lying over and over again!

Garrick
20-10-17, 03:37
So why don't you give us the scientific source that "confirmed" or "determined" there is only two possible areas Albanians "came" from, one of them being Bulgaria and the other Moldova.

As a hobbyist in this field I try to read any and all sources possible. There is a reason why I have proven you wrong and caught you lying over and over again!

Of course I will give sources (not Serbian, not ex-Yugoslav, not Albanian), but not in this thread, when it is appropriate in another thread, really it is impossible to invent because several parameters are involved and applied knowledge of several disciplines.

...
When I wrote that warriors from Plateu of Phyrgia via Bosphorus 2000 BC came to Pannonia and mixed with locals, what is story about Proto-Illyrians, a several members thought this source doesn’t exist and spoke about me in bad manner, but after several months I gave source (Mountain, Celtic Encyclopedia) when it was appropriate.

A lot of time many members, including you, try to discredit me but it doesn't help, and it is very ugly because I never try to discredit any member, every member can write what thinks (if respect rules of forum).

Yes I criticized you about haplogroup I-CTS10228 because you "invent“ name "I2a-Slav“ (!?) what is nonsense, and you saw this haplogroup is much older (TMRCA is determined 3800 years now) and it can be linked with Slavs from Kiev culture 3rd-5th century AD, but what was before, it is 2100 years nothing to do with Slavs, but if I criticized you I never wrote you are liar or similar.

...
And to back, genetic link Bulgarians and Albanians is very strong, no one can reject it.

In this forum if I remember well first member Sile said that Albanians have origin from Bulgaria (he mentioned Bessi what is German scientist theory) and this member is for respect.

Really I didn’t like mention of an area in Bulgaria as homeland of Albanians although I have sources about this longer time and now one newer (and earlier mentioned only Moldova area plus surrounding and Free Dacians), any Bulgarian or Romanian member would say surely, but I had to react on writing of one member (who is not Albanian).

blevins13
20-10-17, 09:03
Of course I will give sources (not Serbian, not ex-Yugoslav, not Albanian), but not in this thread, when it is appropriate in another thread, really it is impossible to invent because several parameters are involved and applied knowledge of several disciplines.

...
When I wrote that warriors from Plateu of Phyrgia via Bosphorus 2000 BC came to Pannonia and mixed with locals, what is story about Proto-Illyrians, a several members thought this source doesn’t exist and spoke about me in bad manner, but after several months I gave source (Mountain, Celtic Encyclopedia) when it was appropriate.

A lot of time many members, including you, try to discredit me but it doesn't help, and it is very ugly because I never try to discredit any member, every member can write what thinks (if respect rules of forum).

Yes I criticized you about haplogroup I-CTS10228 because you "invent“ name "I2a-Slav“ (!?) what is nonsense, and you saw this haplogroup is much older (TMRCA is determined 3800 years now) and it can be linked with Slavs from Kiev culture 3rd-5th century AD, but what was before, it is 2100 years nothing to do with Slavs, but if I criticized you I never wrote you are liar or similar.

...
And to back, genetic link Bulgarians and Albanians is very strong, no one can reject it.

In this forum if I remember well first member Sile said that Albanians have origin from Bulgaria (he mentioned Bessi what is German scientist theory) and this member is for respect.

Really I didn’t like mention of an area in Bulgaria as homeland of Albanians although I have sources about this longer time and now one newer (and earlier mentioned only Moldova area plus surrounding and Free Dacians), any Bulgarian or Romanian member would say surely, but I had to react on writing of one member (who is not Albanian).

Ignore this person.....


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FIREYWOTAN
16-02-18, 12:28
Thanks for offering a deeper appreciation for events that deserve a clearer interpretation. The one thing that's always come across if how much focus cones in to play when our hearts and souls are truly invested. The pieces that are assembled require more than a surface glance.

blevins13
18-02-18, 12:29
IF albanians did come from Dacians then it would be a breakthrough in finding out that this language is what Dacian spoke before they changed to Latin ............that is important enough

I don’t know why you also talk about Albanians in Greek related discussions.....anyway language arguments do not cut the origin of Albanians only DNA, wait and see, Ancient DNA will from the Balkans will provide answers for this....


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Angela
18-02-18, 18:17
one needs to check the admixture of ancient and modern.....since and including the 2015 haak paper, all albanians a very very similar with Greeks ..........I also know for the past year there is a "push" from some areas of scholars to link etruscan and albanian due to these admixture tests.

the issue with Albania is that the Romans latinized the area to a high degree due to the major "highway" from Durres to Istanbul and so any original peoples/cultures etc where completely removed........the byzantines also did a good job using this highway.

Well, that's news to me. What push and by whom? Could you please provide some links?

To the members:

This is a thread about E-V13 in Greece. I will not tolerate this degenerating into another Balkan War. Stay on topic, And yes, Yetos, this applies to you.

blevins13
19-02-18, 13:08
@Gheg

Ulcini is not Illyrian neither Albanian toponym
it is a colony of Colchians and is the remnant of word COLCHINIUM
and has nothing to do with ulk=wolf

by Pliny the elder

a tout aller

Useless discussion .....according to Ptolemy might be Greek as well, for for Albanian is Ujk=wolf....we might be wrong so Dna will settle this useless discussion on E-v13 thread.


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Angela
19-02-18, 16:19
Anyone who posts about linguistics again in this thread is going to get an infraction.

I'll give you a couple of hours to copy and paste the linguistics content in a thread in the linguistics section. After that, I'm going to delete the posts and clean up this thread.

Yetos
19-02-18, 16:22
Anyone who posts about linguistics again in this thread is going to get an infraction.

I'll give you a couple of hours to copy and paste the linguistics content in a thread in the linguistics section. After that, I'm going to delete the posts and clean up this thread.


Angela
Sorry
I wanted to answer a Historical inaccuracy.

Angela
19-02-18, 19:42
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Sile https://www.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=532826#post532826)
one needs to check the admixture of ancient and modern.....since and including the 2015 haak paper, all albanians a very very similar with Greeks ..........I also know for the past year there is a "push" from some areas of scholars to link etruscan and albanian due to these admixture tests.


the issue with Albania is that the Romans latinized the area to a high degree due to the major "highway" from Durres to Istanbul and so any original peoples/cultures etc where completely removed........the byzantines also did a good job using this highway.


Well, that's news to me. What push and by whom? Could you please provide some links?

To the members:

This is a thread about E-V13 in Greece. I will not tolerate this degenerating into another Balkan War. Stay on topic, And yes, Yetos, this applies to you.

I've given you two days. The next time you post something made up you're going to get an infraction.

Trojet
19-02-18, 19:59
I've given you two days. The next time you post something made up you're going to get an infraction.

Sorry for being off topic, but that would be great, Angela!

Sile has a history of spreading disinformation, and recently made up something here also: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34165-J2b2-L283-(proto-illyrian)/page5?p=532834&viewfull=1#post532834

blevins13
19-02-18, 23:36
V-13 nucleotid is a generick Y-dna mark from minor Asia and Haimos till Italy and East Europe.
its existance at W Balkans at Palaiolithic era, does NOT mark that V-13 is Illyrian or Albanian, neither its high peaks,
you need to search deeper and deeper and also use other combos to find which subclades are possibly connected with a certain ethnicity
and also to find older and younger forms to establish a a connection,

G2a2 was running balkans and Europe at Neolithic era,
because it does not peak somewhere today, does not mean, that was not dominant in Neolithic population,
but finding one at Kleitos Greece and one in Hungary.
what results can you extract?
that Greeks rule till Hungary?
or that Hungarians occupied Greece?

Simple things,
only those who do not understand them, speak about 'global conspiracy'

PS
WHEN YOU FIND THE EXACT OR CLOSER AREA AMONG LEVANT AND CENTRAL EUROPE,
THEN WE KNOW CORRECT.

If a V-13 found in Future at minor Asia, or at Bulgaria,
what extracts you will gather?

When I want to laugh [emoji23], I read your past posts on E-V13..::. Over the years you have posted a lot, keep it up.


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Yetos
20-02-18, 00:34
When I want to laugh [emoji23], I read your past posts on E-V13..::. Over the years you have posted a lot, keep it up.


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same feeling with most of you.
except 2 exceptions

you seem to drink the same stuff at the same pub.

what is next about v-13?
so to prepair my belly from laughing.
tell us

blevins13
20-02-18, 01:02
same feeling with most of you.
except 2 exceptions

you seem to drink the same stuff at the same pub.

what is next about v-13?
so to prepair my belly from laughing.
tell us

Leave it to science....not to speculation.


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Yetos
20-02-18, 01:09
Leave it to science....not to speculation.


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as long I live I learn,

Do you?

I hope by science you do not mean the ridiculous theories express by the 'pub' members? :laughing:

Angela
20-02-18, 01:12
ENOUGH! Stop baiting each other or I'm going to close another thread.

blevins13
20-02-18, 01:13
as long I live I learn,

Do you?

I hope by science you do not mean the ridiculous theories express by the 'pub' members? :laughing:

Hopefully, if will be lucky enough to find truth and perceive it as such.


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athos
26-08-18, 15:43
Interesting thread. I am Greek with ancestors from the pelleponese. 23andMe YDNA = E-V13. I took the FTDNA Y 37 and my predicted Y-DNA haplogroup is E-M35. In discussions with some ftdna groups it is thought my downstream looks like this. I will be taking the ftdna E-V13 SNP pack to further verify the downstream subclades. Does this seem like the best next step? I am interested in the migration of my paternal side.
E-M35>>M78>>L618>V13>CTS5856

athos
26-08-18, 15:51
Interesting thread. I am Greek with ancestors from the pelleponese. 23andMe YDNA = E-V13. I took the FTDNA Y 37 and my predicted Y-DNA haplogroup is E-M35. In discussions with some ftdna groups it is thought my downstream looks like this. I will be taking the ftdna E-V13 SNP pack to further verify the downstream subclades. Does this seem like the best next step? I am interested in the migration of my paternal side.
E-M35>>M78>>L618>V13>CTS5856

Trojet
26-08-18, 17:08
Interesting thread. I am Greek with ancestors from the pelleponese. 23andMe YDNA = E-V13. I took the FTDNA Y 37 and my predicted Y-DNA haplogroup is E-M35. In discussions with some ftdna groups it is thought my downstream looks like this. I will be taking the ftdna E-V13 SNP pack to further verify the downstream subclades. Does this seem like the best next step? I am interested in the migration of my paternal side.
E-M35>>M78>>L618>V13>CTS5856

If you can afford it, go for the BigY 500. It's currently on sale until August 31. I don't see many Greek E-V13 samples at YFull anyways, where you can upload your BigY results to: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

Otherwise, the E-V13 SNP Pack will do the job to find your "terminal" SNP/subclade.

athos
26-08-18, 17:15
Thanks Trojet.

Aspurg
25-03-19, 02:44
I have isolated E-V13 clades that as of now occur in Greeks or can be certainly identified based on STR's, and based on diversity of clades and closeness and location of their their matches I added some of my clues about their likely ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>Y30977>Y37092/BY14151* an isolated clade without matches found in Kyklades, likely arrived in Greece in EBA, likely/possibly with Cetina people. Ancient Greek.

E-V13>Z1057>Y30977>Y37092>BY14151* (very likely a parallel clade) One Greek from Argos area seems to possibly cluster with the Serbian Vasojevici clan (7/37), but hard to say without deeper tests how distant he is to them. So he could be either Ancient Greek or Vlach.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>S7461>BY5022>Y150909>Y150909a - Found in Arcadia. Ancient Greek. One Asia Minor sample likely clusters with him, and might have something to do with Myceneans, though with TMRCA 3000 it boomed later. S7461 has generally highest diversity in Thrace/Bulgaria so it ultimately derives from there.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>BY4684>Z19851>Z19851a - Found in a Greek from Aetolia, and based on STR's one from Pelopenesus in a study. Also found in Aromanians from Albania and Aromanian from Cogalniceanu Romania who has an identical haplotype. Certain Vlach origin.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>BY4684* - Found in two Greeks from Thessaly and Greek Thrace who cluster together. Also closely matching to them on STR's are 4 Basarabi individuals from Romania (Basarabi study). A more distant BY4684* is found around Balkan mountain in Bulgaria. Vlach ancestry for this clade seems certain.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377* - A Greek with a surname suggesting Vlach origin, clusetrs closely (4/37) with a Bulgarian from Central Balkan Mountains so he must be of Vlach ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z17264 - One of the most common E-V13 clades in Greece. 2 samples at YFull and also a Bulgarian sample also clusters with Greeks (dys439=9, dys448=19). Ancient Greek definitely but paternal CTS9320 has far greater diversity to the North so it likely arrived to Greece from the North in EIA. It is generally frequent in Asia Minor Greeks, Greek Macedonia, and Greek islanders. Found also on Cyprus.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z17107>Z38456>BY4461>Y97307 Found in a number of Greeks from Greece in various locations: Asia Minor, Peloponnesus (study). Also a few of Turks cluster with Asia Minor Greeks and ultimately Albanians. Arvanite ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z16988>A11837 An ethnic Greek from Southern Albania clusters closely with a Serb from Shop and a Serb from Sumadija. Likely Vlach ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320* (Z16988-, Z17107-, Z17264-, S19928-) - One Greek from Greek Thrace, might be Ancient Greek or Thracian. He is not tested to some other newer parallel branches under CTS9320.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y35953>PF6784 - Common in Pontic Greeks, yet also have two parallel clades in Poland and Slovakia at TMRCA of 3400, indicating it too arrived from the North in MBA/LBA. Ancient Greek.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>FGC33621>A10158 - Found in a Greek from Western Crete. Clusters with an American. Ancient Greek but parallel clades are found in Northern Albania as well as in Central Bulgaria. TMRCA of 2900 ybp suggests arrival to Greece from the North in EIA.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>FGC11451>FGC11450>Y146086 Found in a Greek from Aetolia and another Greek. They closely cluster with Albanians. Arvanite ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>FGC11451>FGC11450* (DYS458=14/DYS460=10) Found in a Greek from Euboia and one Greek from Phocaea. They closely cluster with Albanians. Arvanite ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183* - based on specific STR's found in a number of Greeks from Corinthia and Greek Macedonia. They cluster closely with a Macedonian (tested at Y37 and SNP confirmed as Y3183*), Romanian, Hungarian and a Bulgarian. Considering the diversity of Y3183 in Bulgaria they probably have Vlach ancestry, also some Aromanian samples might cluster with them, but Aromanians lack certain important STR's to assign them to this clade with certainty.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>Z16661>S2978 - Found in several Greeks from Messinia, Peloponnesus. Very likely Ancient Greek but considering diversity of Z16661 north of Greece it likely arrived to greece in LBA or EIA. Some Eastern and Sardinian samples might fit into Greek colonisation.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>A7135>A7136 - Found in a Greek from Laconia. Very likely Ancient Greek, yet the high diversity of BY5430 (under A7135) in Central-Eastern Balkans clearly suggests the origin from the North (Eastern Balkans) and arrival to Greece in EIA.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>L241 - Two Greeks are L241+ but without deeper tests. One from Messinia and one from Arcadia (?). Likely Ancient Greeks had their own specific clades of L241. Additionally a significant percentage of Cypriot E-V13 from studies is certainly related to a Cypriot Greek who tested Y37 and who seems almost certainly L241. Based on some STR's they might belong to L241>Z38770 subclade. L241 has plenty of diversity in more Northern areas of the Balkan so it seems Greek L241 arrived to Greece in EIA.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y16729* - One Greek clusters closely with a Macedonian and a number of Aromanians. Vlach ancestry.

Edit:
E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273* (Z16663-, S3003-, S7461-, PH1246-, Z5017-, Z5018-, Y16729-, Y19509-, BY6527-, FGC14092-) - I forgot one Cypriot who doesn't cluster with anyone, so Ancient Greek with likely older MBA presence in Greece.

Additionally
E-CTS1273* YF12550 is an ethnic Bulgarian from N.Greece, not a Greek.
E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y19508* found in Malta might have something to do with Ancient Greeks.


Generally it seems most of Ancient Greek V13's arrived to Greece in LBA-EIA timeframe.

Johane Derite
25-03-19, 03:03
I have isolated E-V13 clades that as of now occur in Greeks or can be certainly identified based on STR's, and based on diversity of clades and closeness and location of their their matches I added some of my clues about their likely ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>Y30977>Y37092/BY14151* an isolated clade without matches found in Kyklades, likely arrived in Greece in EBA, likely/possibly with Cetina people. Ancient Greek.

E-V13>Z1057>Y30977>Y37092>BY14151* (very likely a parallel clade) One Greek from Argos area seems to possibly cluster with the Serbian Vasojevici clan (7/37), but hard to say without deeper tests how distant he is to them. So he could be either Ancient Greek or Vlach.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>S7461>BY5022>Y150909>Y150909a - Found in Arcadia. Ancient Greek. One Asia Minor sample likely clusters with him, and might have something to do with Myceneans, though with TMRCA 3000 it boomed later. S7461 has generally highest diversity in Thrace/Bulgaria so it ultimately derives from there.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>BY4684>Z19851>Z19851a - Found in a Greek from Aetolia, and based on STR's one from Pelopenesus in a study. Also found in Aromanians from Albania and Aromanian from Cogalniceanu Romania who has an identical haplotype. Certain Vlach origin.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>BY4684* - Found in two Greeks from Thessaly and Greek Thrace who cluster together. Also closely matching to them on STR's are 4 Basarabi individuals from Romania (Basarabi study). A more distant BY4684* is found around Balkan mountain in Bulgaria. Vlach ancestry for this clade seems certain.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377* - A Greek with a surname suggesting Vlach origin, clusetrs closely (4/37) with a Bulgarian from Central Balkan Mountains so he must be of Vlach ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z17264 - One of the most common E-V13 clades in Greece. 2 samples at YFull and also a Bulgarian sample also clusters with Greeks (dys439=9, dys448=19). Ancient Greek definitely but paternal CTS9320 has far greater diversity to the North so it likely arrived to Greece from the North in EIA. It is generally frequent in Asia Minor Greeks, Greek Macedonia, and Greek islanders. Found also on Cyprus.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z17107>Z38456>BY4461>Y97307 Found in a number of Greeks from Greece in various locations: Asia Minor, Peloponnesus (study). Also a few of Turks cluster with Asia Minor Greeks and ultimately Albanians. Arvanite ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z16988>A11837 An ethnic Greek from Southern Albania clusters closely with a Serb from Shop and a Croat. Vlach ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320* (Z16988-, Z17107-, Z17264-, S19928-) - One Greek from Greek Thrace, might be Ancient Greek or Thracian. He is not tested to some other newer parallel branches under CTS9320.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y35953>PF6784 - Common in Pontic Greeks, yet also have two parallel clades in Poland and Slovakia at TMRCA of 3400, indicating it too arrived from the North in MBA/LBA. Ancient Greek.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>FGC33621>A10158 - Found in a Greek from Eastern Crete. Clusters with an American. Ancient Greek but parallel clades are found in Northern Albania as well as in Central Bulgaria. TMRCA of 2900 ybp suggests arrival to Greece from the North in EIA.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>FGC11451>FGC11450>Y146086 Found in a Greek from Aetolia and another Greek. They closely cluster with Albanians. Arvanite ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>FGC11451>FGC11450* (DYS458=14/DYS460=10) Found in a Greek from Euboia and one Greek from Phocaea. They closely cluster with Albanians. Arvanite ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183* - based on specific STR's found in a number of Greeks from Corinthia and Greek Macedonia. They cluster closely with a Macedonian (tested at Y37 and SNP confirmed as Y3183*), Romanian, Hungarian and a Bulgarian. Considering the diversity of Y3183 in Bulgaria they probably have Vlach ancestry, also some Aromanian samples might cluster with them, but Aromanians lack certain important STR's to assigned them to this clade with certainty.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>Z16661>S2978 - Found in several Greeks from Messinia, Peloponnesus. Likely Ancient Greek but considering diversity of Z16661 north of Greece it likely arrived to greece in LBA or EIA. Some Eastern and Sardinian samples might fit into Greek colonisation.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>A7135>A7136 - Found in a Greek from Laconia. Likely Ancient Greek, yet the high diversity of BY5430 (under A7135) in Central-Eastern Balkans clearly suggests the origin from the North (Eastern Balkans) and arrival to Greece in EIA.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>L241 - Two Greeks are L241+ but without deeper tests. One from Messinia and one from Arcadia (?). Likely Ancient Greeks had their own specific clades of L241. Additionally a significant percentage of Cypriot E-V13 from studies is certainly related to a Cypriot Greek who tested Y37 and who seems almost certainly L241. Based on some STR's they might belong to L241>Z38770 subclade. L241 has plenty of diversity in more Northern areas of the Balkan so it seems Greek L241 arrived to Greece in EIA.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y16729* - One Greek clusters closely with a Macedonian and a number of Aromanians. Vlach ancestry.


Additionally
E-CTS1273* YF12550 is an ethnic Bulgarian from N.Greece, not a Greek.
E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y19508* found in Malta might have something to do with Ancient Greeks.


Generally it seems most of Ancient Greek V13's arrived to Greece in LBA-EIA timeframe.

A very high quality post with lots to reflect on. The Dorian invasions that put an end to the Mycenean culture are being confirmed basically on the y-dna level also. Linguist Kretschmer believed the Dorian invasions and Sea Peoples to be either the same event or intertwined somehow.

Johane Derite
25-03-19, 04:14
Obviously the LBA - EIA relates to the Dorian Invasion period:


https://i.imgur.com/3LLsUNL.jpg

Nik
25-03-19, 17:02
E-V13>Z1057>Y30977>Y37092>BY14151* (very likely a parallel clade) One Greek from Argos area seems to possibly cluster with the Serbian Vasojevici clan (7/37), but hard to say without deeper tests how distant he is to them. So he could be either Ancient Greek or Vlach.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z16988>A11837 An ethnic Greek from Southern Albania clusters closely with a Serb from Shop and a Croat. Vlach ancestry.

Great post as always!

Although the 2 clusters above indicate more an Albanian origin rather than Vlach. The area of Vasojevici is the border region of the Albanian clans and the region of Argolis has always had a very strong Arvanite presence.

As for A11837, its current location makes it a Western Balkan/Illyrian rather than a Vlach/Thracian cluster but both scenarios are possible as there's indeed a Eastern Balkan influx into South Albania.

Aspurg
25-03-19, 21:40
A very high quality post with lots to reflect on. The Dorian invasions that put an end to the Mycenean culture are being confirmed basically on the y-dna level also. Linguist Kretschmer believed the Dorian invasions and Sea Peoples to be either the same event or intertwined somehow.


Thank you, Greek V13's haven't received much attention, partially because not too many Greeks are tested for specific clades, but I managed to collect all those that are, and in few cases some can be predicted with certainty.


Well its quite obvious that most of legitimately Greek E-V13's are post-Mycenean, and in many cases that won't change as many of these clades have already much greater diversity North of Greece.
I actually noticed as I was writing that this new guy from Crete appeared who is distantly related to you.
It's a done deal I think that at least some of these V13 clades are Dorian.


Actually I noticed in addition to two Greek L241+ and one Cypriot almost certain L241 (who represents approx. 3.2 % of all Cypriot so a good portion of Cypriot V13) 3 additional Greeks are on Y37 very likely to be L241. Their known locations are Messinia, Kymi-Evvia and Gortynia, Arcadia. So it seems strong in Peloponnese, few of Greek L241 might be Arvanite but likely a minority.


Of particular interest to me is the tested Pappas from Kastania in Laconia. I guess they should be descended of Maniots and therefore are good candidates for Spartan descent! I have not seen their STR's but they are confirmed Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>A7135>A7136 and this clade almost certainly has nothing to do with Arvanites. As I've said because A7135>Y18360>BY5430 seems firmly established in Central-Eastern Balkans and they separated 2800 ybp from others it is certain that this Greek arrived in Greece in EIA. Unless ofc they are Vlach, but I havent found these E-BY5423 haplotypes that much to the South.

Aspurg
25-03-19, 21:46
Great post as always!

Although the 2 clusters above indicate more an Albanian origin rather than Vlach. The area of Vasojevici is the border region of the Albanian clans and the region of Argolis has always had a very strong Arvanite presence.

As for A11837, its current location makes it a Western Balkan/Illyrian rather than a Vlach/Thracian cluster but both scenarios are possible as there's indeed a Eastern Balkan influx into South Albania.

Thanks cousin!


Well there was a tradition of Vasojevici being related to Malesor tribes, but this old tradition about brothers Vaso, Pipo, Kraso, Hot and Ozro obviously was some attempt to form closer inter-tribal connections as all of these have different genetics.


In Herzegovina study several families who descend of Medieval Vlach Bobani clan from Herzegovina (read here about them https://hrcak.srce.hr/137735) came out with similar haplotypes to Vasojevici. Additionally there is a group of families in Western Bosnia who are related to Vasojevici and they have been there since 16th centruy at least and they have no tradition about being descendants of Vasojevici. Also there is a specific haplotype certainly related to Vasojevici with dys458=13, and it is found in Croats and even in a single Slovenian!
Further the largest tribal subgroup of Vasojevici Rajevici fortunately seem to have a mutation of their own: GATAH4=10 (drop from 11), and in a study of 404 haplotypes from Montenegro this can be seen as 2/3 of Vasojevici haplotypes have GATAH4=10. The point is: where you have tribal Vasojevici you have GATAH4=10. Yet in Herzegovina, Bosnia, and Croatia these do not exist. On the other hand Bobani and dys458=13 in Montenegro do not exist. So the question is are these Bosnian/Croatian haplotypes descended from Montenegro or the opposite? Had these Bobani Vlachs, W.Bosnians, Croats, Slovenians descended of Vasojevici they would have had lots of GATAH4=10 who are majority of tribal Vasojevici. They have none. That indicates tribal Vasojevici are a newer subclade and that they descend of them. Vasojevici had a tradition of Herzegovina descent and also among Vasojevici in 1485 a person with a Herzegovic surname was recorded (1485 defter of Shkoder- S.Pulaha).


I think two of Vasojevici ordered Dante NGS tests, I suggested some of these Bosnian, Croatian haplotypes do the same and then it will be obvious who descends of whom. I think Vasojevici descend from more Western area (Herzegovina) and they might actually descend of Illyrian tribes like Liburnians.


This Greek (kit B2390) is from Tripoli and his ancestor was first mentioned in early 19th century. He's 7/37 with Vasojevici but for PH1246 it is usually hard to judge the distance at 37 STR's.. With 111 STR's it would be much clearer how close he is.


About A11837, this guy from Shop is a member here (Shetop), well Shop actually is more Tribalian, and maybe this particular clade is descended of them. I think CTS9320 has several affinities, including Dacian, Triballian, Illyrian and some like Z17264 Greek. So I wouldn't consider it "Thracian" in a narrow sense. (though Dacians and Triballians in broader sense are Thracian).

Nik
26-03-19, 01:32
Thanks cousin!


Well there was a tradition of Vasojevici being related to Malesor tribes, but this old tradition about brothers Vaso, Pipo, Kraso, Hot and Ozro obviously was some attempt to form closer inter-tribal connections as all of these have different genetics.


In Herzegovina study several families who descend of Medieval Vlach Bobani clan from Herzegovina (read here about them https://hrcak.srce.hr/137735) came out with similar haplotypes to Vasojevici. Additionally there is a group of families in Western Bosnia who are related to Vasojevici and they have been there since 16th centruy at least and they have no tradition about being descendants of Vasojevici. Also there is a specific haplotype certainly related to Vasojevici with dys458=13, and it is found in Croats and even in a single Slovenian!
Further the largest tribal subgroup of Vasojevici Rajevici fortunately seem to have a mutation of their own: GATAH4=10 (drop from 11), and in a study of 404 haplotypes from Montenegro this can be seen as 2/3 of Vasojevici haplotypes have GATAH4=10. The point is: where you have tribal Vasojevici you have GATAH4=10. Yet in Herzegovina, Bosnia, and Croatia these do not exist. On the other hand Bobani and dys458=13 in Montenegro do not exist. So the question is are these Bosnian/Croatian haplotypes descended from Montenegro or the opposite? Had these Bobani Vlachs, W.Bosnians, Croats, Slovenians descended of Vasojevici they would have had lots of GATAH4=10 who are majority of tribal Vasojevici. They have none. That indicates tribal Vasojevici are a newer subclade and that they descend of them. Vasojevici had a tradition of Herzegovina descent and also among Vasojevici in 1485 a person with a Herzegovic surname was recorded (1485 defter of Shkoder- S.Pulaha).


I think two of Vasojevici ordered Dante NGS tests, I suggested some of these Bosnian, Croatian haplotypes do the same and then it will be obvious who descends of whom. I think Vasojevici descend from more Western area (Herzegovina) and they might actually descend of Illyrian tribes like Liburnians.


This Greek (kit B2390) is from Tripoli and his ancestor was first mentioned in early 19th century. He's 7/37 with Vasojevici but for PH1246 it is usually hard to judge the distance at 37 STR's.. With 111 STR's it would be much clearer how close he is.


About A11837, this guy from Shop is a member here (Shetop), well Shop actually is more Tribalian, and maybe this particular clade is descended of them. I think CTS9320 has several affinities, including Dacian, Triballian, Illyrian and some like Z17264 Greek. So I wouldn't consider it "Thracian" in a narrow sense. (though Dacians and Triballians in broader sense are Thracian).
Haha hello cousin!

It makes sense what you're saying about the Vasojevic and obviously all those tribes in Montenegro are not related to each other as the legend says, but they all do come from Herzegovina and what's interesting is that in the case of Hoti I think they did find Vlachs when they came to their current location.

I hope more and more Greeks test for deeper clades together with Albanians and other Balkanites as we're currently seeing many interesting results.

The guy from Shop could be a Triballian, Moesian, Dardanian, etc. as that population gave birth to many Albanians as well but as always we'll have to wait and see if other people share the same clade.