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Milan.M
29-07-17, 12:38
I found out that some subclades of I-CTS10228 for right now can be found only more northern countries and among North Slavs like I-Y4460 ,and some among both South and North Slavs like I-Z17855 and I-S17250,there is subclade found in Greece called the Mediteranean cluster I-A2512 and under it I-Y23115 call the Jewish diaspora cluster called so by I-P37.2 haplogroup research.


I-S17250 perhaps a major branch found among South,North Slavs and their neighbors.
I-Y4460 found among North Slavs,Balts,Finns etc
I-Z17855 found among South,North Slavs and their neighbors.
I-A2512 found among some Greeks and some further subclades of it among Jewish diaspora.

Runofmillsukrainian
31-07-17, 18:12
I2a1b2 L621+ 6.8-5kya,
formed 11300, TMRCA 6500

The high concentration of I2a1b-L621 in north-east Romania, Moldova and central Ukraine reminds of the maximum spread of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (4800-3000 BCE) before it was swallowed by the Indo-European Corded Ware culture. Ancient Dacians, Thracians, Illyrians

I2a1b2a1a S17250– TMRCA 2100

The higher percentage of I2a-Din in the south is probably just due to another founder effect due to the fact that the South Slavs originated in western Ukraine, where the ratio of I2a to R1a was higher. Virtually all Dinaric I2a falls under the CTS10228 (aka CTS5966 or L147.2) subclade, and the majority to the S17250 ramification, who descend from a common patrilinear ancestor who lived only 1,800 years ago.

I2a1b2a1b Y4460+ TMRCA 2200

Most modern Eastern Europeans belonging to I2a1b fit into the L147.2 (aka CTS10228, CTS2180 or Y3111) subclade, which is thought to have arisen 5,600 years ago (just before the Yamna period and the Trypillian expansion into the steppe), but has a TMRCA of only 2300 years according to Yfull. The minority of I2a1b-L621 individuals negative for L147.2 are all found around eastern Poland, Belarus and western Ukraine, suggesting that this is where this lineage survived since the Chalcolithic. The I2a1b-L147.2 subclade seems to have expanded very fast from 1900 years ago, which is concordant with the timing of the Slavic ethnogenesis, considering that it takes a few centuries before one man can have enough male descendants to start having an impact at the scale of a (small but fast-growing) population.

I2a1b2a1c Z17855– TMRCA 1650 Age: 1626 ybp.

YFULL reported locations of tested people: UKR. Based on map by Krzysztow most of tested people are from Balkan countires (Bulgaria, Macedonia, Romania, Bosnia, Croatia).

I2a1b2a1d A2512– TMRCA 2100 Age: 2029 ybp.

Not tested by FTDNA. Tested with YSEQ, Negative C-. Current locations of tested people: UKR+BLR

Runofmillsukrainian
31-07-17, 18:27
Here is more regarding 4 clusters

Runofmillsukrainian
31-07-17, 18:40
Delete post

Runofmillsukrainian
31-07-17, 18:46
Here is more regarding 4 clusters

Andrii Lundiak is name of author writing I2a1b paper, he makes connection with I2a1b2-L621 being descendants Ancient Thracians, Dacians

Runofmillsukrainian
31-07-17, 18:53
More info can be found on website lundiak.wordpress/I2a1b2a1

I am new user cant post link.

Runofmillsukrainian
31-07-17, 21:19
My guess this Haplogroup I2A-DIN developed around Danube basin, there is no reason to assume it was north of this location

hrvat22
18-09-17, 22:05
I found out that some subclades of I-CTS10228 for right now can be found only more northern countries and among North Slavs like I-Y4460 ,and some among both South and North Slavs like I-Z17855 and I-S17250,there is subclade found in Greece called the Mediteranean cluster I-A2512 and under it I-Y23115 call the Jewish diaspora cluster called so by I-P37.2 haplogroup research.


I-S17250 perhaps a major branch found among South,North Slavs and their neighbors.
I-Y4460 found among North Slavs,Balts,Finns etc
I-Z17855 found among South,North Slavs and their neighbors.
I-A2512 found among some Greeks and some further subclades of it among Jewish diaspora.

Mutation I-S17250 is White Croatian origin.

http://www.waughfamily.ca/Ancient/Tree%20and%20Map%20for%20Hg%20I.pdf

So far, most or all of those who are negative for S17250 have patrilineage
originating near the Carpathians, particularly southeastern Poland and
extreme western Ukraine. That pattern may change with more sampling, of
course Date: 20 May 2014.


http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2014-05/1400615460


Russian geneticist I. Rozhansky says:
2013/10/18 translation from Russian ...
Croats haplogroup R1a is represented almost exclusively by the Central Eurasian subclade Z280 (as in Eastern Slavs and Carpathians). And Croats, Slovenians, and as, most likely, Serbs dominate several branches of that have common mark of the Sneap CTS3402. the geography of these branches is such that it is possible to trace its path from the Carpathian side to the Adriatic. The same can be said about the "Dinarides" subsidiary subclades I2a1b. Obviously, White Croats and Croats from the Carpathians to the Adriatic are really close peoples. The Serbs and Danubian Serbs can not say so - they are too different in the line ..

http://pereformat.ru/2013/10/kolybel-evropejskoj-civilizacii/

Vlad82
23-09-18, 22:37
Y-chromosome STR variation in Ukrainian populations (http://www.biovestnik.com/index.php/biology/article/view/56)Unfortunately, Y-STR haplotypes of Ukrainians used in this scientific paper are not available or I have not been able to find it.
Dissertation of the author is available on the following link:
“Генофонд українців за різними системами генетичних маркерів: походження і місце на європейському генетичному просторі” (http://nrcrm.gov.ua/science/councils/dissertation/)

Text about I2a-P37.2 could be found here from 23. page: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1bUIW1YACgZYlJGZWlNd25xTkU/view
The paper is written in Russian, as someone with the Slavic background I can understand most of it (sometimes wrongly:)), I am so sorry that some people probably would not be able to read.
The author suggests the origin of this HG in Ukraine (between Carpathian and Dnieper river or Polesie, where is observed the highest diversity of haplotypes). Most (if not almost all) of Balkan and East European I-P37.2 belong to I-CTS10228 so this can apply only to this haplogroup .
It is not written much about the division of I-CTS10228, except that Olga (author) mentioned division based on STR marker DYS448, already known as Dinaric South and Dinaric North. She has called DYS448=19 "Balkan cluster" and DYS448=20 "Dniepr-Carpathian cluster", because of the fact that all older subclades of I-P37 have DYS448=20 she also supposed that DYS448=19 haplotypes belong to the younger subbranch.
According to her research, haplotypes with DYS448=19 are dominant in the Balkans (among South Slavs), except Greece (where DYS448=20 is prevalent), and Bulgarians are in the middle, and among West and East Slavs haplotypes with DYS448=20 are dominant.
She found a low diversity of DYS448=19 haplotypes in Western Balkan (Bosnia and Hercegovina) and supposed that high percentages there are due to founder effect.
More then a year ago I wrote to the author and asked for haplotypes from the research, I was informed that it will be public after the completion of a research.
She provided maps of frequencies and diversity for both clusters (page 26), maps are not of good quality but we can recognise regions and density colours:
https://i.postimg.cc/6Q8dfTWs/I-_CTS10228.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I have not checked all references used in paper and computations, plan to do it as soon as have free time, also I have not seen haplotypes of Ukrainians. Anyway, I will write some comments here:
-High percentages of DYS448=19 or I-PH908 in Hercegovina and Dalmatia, between 35%-60%, might really be due to founder effect and expansion on sheperd tribes. What we do not know is the time period when the expansion started, e.g. is it 1000, 1500 or more years ago. There are some methods for calculation of TMRCA, but no one can give the precise answer, and there are many subclades of PH908 which might have different expansion rates and migration routes.
- Many of Balkan haplotypes of I-PH908 from Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro, B&H and Croatia look similar and probably belong to same subclades.
-Many, if not all, known subclades of PH908 found in the Balkan are present north of the Danube, especially in Ukraine, only percentages are different.
- Maps show high variability of DYS448=19 in Dniester basin, Dnieper Basin and especially in Polesia and Belarus. I have not seen haplotypes from her research and can not make the final conclusion. According to my database, there might really be a high diversity of DYS448=19 in Dniester Basin, while for Belarus I am not sure. I-PH908 is more frequent in Western Belarus than in Central, East and North of the country where it is almost non-existent. Also, it is more frequent in Western than Eastern part of Ukraine. In my opinion, higher dispersion and diversity of I-PH908 in this region follow basins of four rivers: Dniester, Western Bug, Neman and Wisla in Poland. Of course, it is present everywhere among East and West Slavs, but these basins look especially important.

-Dinaric north or DYS448=20 or more, have several subclades, the most numerous are I-S17250 and I-Y4460, I-Z17855 and I-Y18331 pretty less (all are under I-CTS10228>>Y3120) plus we have one I-CTS10228* and two I-Y3120*results.
Dinaric south or I-PH908 is the subclade of I-S17250, so together they made up more than 50% of all I-CTS10228, according to data from FTDna it seems that both parts of I-S17250 (DYS448=19 and 20) started their expansion in Western Ukraine.
I-Y4460 very likely started its expansion eastern of I-S17250 in Dnieper Basin.
- Greece really has the high diversity of Dinaric north as shown on the map, the most common subclade is I-Y18331 or its branch named I-A2512. It made us about 50% of results from Greece, S17250, Z17855 and Y4460 are on the second, third place and fourth place. Both subclades of I-S17250 are present, Dinaric south about 2% or 20% in all I-CTS10228. The average percentage of I-CTS10228 for Greece is about 10%, except for the Epirus where was observed at more than 30% (n=32).
-I would like to add that Bulgaria has very diverse I-CTS10228 haplotypes, ratio DYS448=19/20 is about 50/50 (as mentioned in the paper) and 20% in the overall country sample, and both clusters are very diverse. The most common subclade among Dinaric north is I-Z17855 (more than 50% of Dinaric north), also I-S17250 (Z16971 and Y4882) and Y4460 have been observed.
I-Ph908 is present with about 10% or 50% of all I-CTS10228 Bulgarian results. For now, at least 10 subclades of I-Ph908 have been identified, very likely there are more than 20.
Maps do not show the diversity of any cluster in Bulgaria.
In general, I-PH908 made up about 25%-30% of all I-CTS10228, from Big Y results we know for existence of more than 20 subclades, most of them are observed only once and have *(star) sign.

I hope haplotypes from the dissertation will be available soon.

Ownstyler
24-09-18, 03:13
Nice find Vlad. I've been interested in the distribution frequency and diversity of Slavic subclades for a while, but didn't think to search for non-English sources. Do you have anything similar for the Slavic subclades of R1a? I'm especially interested to know if there are any subclades that are more Western Balkanic and other that are more Eastern.

As for I2a, it seems that Greece got most of its Slavic ancestry from the very early waves of Slavic settlers, while ex-Yugoslavia was settled, or re-settled, by later ones. Bulgaria and Macedonia are less clear.

hrvat22
24-09-18, 16:19
High percentages of DYS448=19 or I-PH908 in Hercegovina and Dalmatia, between 35%-60%, might really be due to founder effect

It should be so,


and expansion on sheperd tribes.

but this is not true, sheperd tribes also have other haplotypes, E1b, J2, R1b, R1a.

Sheperd tribes from the historical point of view are the Vlachs, but that DYS448=19 or I-PH908 in Herzegovina and Dalmatia is originally Croatian origin. First, it is original White Croatian subclade, second, if Croats in Dalmatia and Herzegovina have I2a up to 70% and large part is I-PH908 then they can not be sheperd tribes, sheperd tribes have mixed genetic.

I have already explained possible reason why Croats have such a high percentage of I2a, that's because Croats as Catholics in the Turkish period do not mix with Orthodox Vlachs (sheperd tribes) and Muslims (Bosniaks) and large part of Croats crosses into these groups or is assimilated.

This is actually genetics of Croats before arrival of the Turks to the Balkans. They did not mix with anyone and that's why I2a grew up in Croatian community.

Second reason is that from these areas (interior of Dalmatia and Herzegovina) Croats crossing to the islands and there are also mixed among themselves which means that Croats in the Turkish area remain isolated in Turkish territory and same isolation was made in Croatia, on the islands.


What we do not know is the time period when the expansion started, e.g. is it 1000, 1500 or more years ago. There are some methods for calculation of TMRCA, but no one can give the precise answer,

When this is established then we will see if my theory is correct.


and there are many subclades of PH908 which might have different expansion rates and migration routes.

For now I know that great part of Serbs from Dinaric areas are settled in Serbia, Vojvodina.


Many of Balkan haplotypes of I-PH908 from Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro, B&H and Croatia look similar and probably belong to same subclades. All of them have a common ancestor I-S17250 or they come from White Croatia. In the future we will see local migrations in the Balkans and then we'll be smarter.


Also, it is more frequent in Western than Eastern part of Ukraine. In my opinion, higher dispersion and diversity of I-PH908 in this region follow basins of four rivers: Dniester, Western Bug, Neman and Wisla in Poland.


according to data from FTDna it seems that both parts of I-S17250 (DYS448=19 and 20) started their expansion in Western Ukraine.

Stiljsko is village in the Lviv region (Mikolajivski region) near Lviv in Ukraine. The archaeological site in this place has great significance for exploring the history and life of White Croats.

That subclade I-S17250 should be White Croatian mutation, for now.



https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiljsko


Dinaric south or I-PH908 is the subclade of I-S17250, so together they made up more than 50% of all I-CTS10228,


de administrando imperio


Where their neighbor is Francia, as well as great Croatia.

Historical records mention a great Croatia which proves that many people lived there and most likely many people migrate from there to Balkans and elsewhere.






Greece really has the high diversity of Dinaric north as shown on the map, the most common subclade is I-Y18331 or its branch named I-A2512. It made us about 50% of results from Greece, S17250, Z17855 and Y4460 are on the second, third place and fourth place.


Croatian name in the toponym was also confirmed in Ohrid, Prespan and Bitola (Macedonia), near the Marathon Field and not far from Micen in Greece.

It is possible that this toponym come to Macedonia and Greece with White Croats (S17250)

Vlad82
29-09-18, 13:44
A diversity of S17250 in Western Ukraine and its spreading show a high correlation with the expansion of Slavs from Prague Korchak culture. There are at least 50 Medieval Slavic tribes that could be connected to this culture.
https://i.postimg.cc/rmm0dQZD/Prague_Korchak.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Slavs from this culture from Western Ukraine migrated towards Balkan using routes of outer Carpathians, to East and Central Balkan via Moldova and Wallachia down to Greece, and to West Balkan via South Poland Slovakia and Western Pannonia down to the Adriatic Sea.
It is not clear what were ratios of R1a (especially Z280) and I-CTS10228 (South/North) among tribes from Korchak area. We should wait for more results to be able to identify it, anyway it seems that group who travelled Eastward to Central Balkan had a higher ratio of Dinaric South than Dinaric North; while the group from Slovakia, South Poland and West Balkan and West Pannonia had more Dinaric North . This conclusion is based on the current situation; it does not mean that 1500 years ago we had exactly the same situation, some subclades can have a higher rate of expansion than others.
Primarily, here I think on expansion on I-PH908 in Central and Western Balkan at a much higher rate than Dinaric North and R1a subclades. There are also similar examples in other HG’s as well, but more locally (do not cover such a big territory).
Medieval shepherds groups called Vlach are phenomena that appeared in late middle age, and it is not clear if they and how much are connected with Pre-Slavic population. Some authors consider them non-Slavic mostly because their main occupation was transhumance which was not common for the rest of the Slavs who were mostly agricultural society. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumance and some Romance name of their leaders and katuns.
While other authors think, they were Slavic or a mix of Slavic and Non-Slavic population. Nothing is clear about the area of their origin or language they spoke(probably Slavic, some think they were bilingual).
There is no other HG in Balkans that match described dispersion and migrations of Medieval Vlach as I-PH908 does.
Western Bulgaria, Western Wallachia, East Serbia, Dinaric Alps, rest of Bosnia and Croatia. All regions are characterized by dominance of I-PH908 or DYS448=19, and all are common for shepherd groups mentioned in historical sources.
Historical sources have plenty of references that mentioned Vlach tribes in Dinaric Alps, I would mention some of them which first come to my mind: Ozrinitsi, Niksitsi, Pilatovtsi, Zubtsi, Burmazi, Morlaks, Bunjevtsi, Ridjani, Hrabreni etc. As I know their descendant have been tested as I-PH908.
For example subbranch of I-PH908 with a distinctive value DYS19=14 made up about 10% of all I-PH908 results from Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro, in Croatian part of Hercegovina probably even more, according to STR calculations and two Big Y results tested people on Western Balkan have TMRCA about 1000 years ago. Haplotypes with this values DYS19=14 and DYS448=19 are also observed in Macedonia, Greek Macedonia, Bulgaria, Romania, North Moldova and Poland (Northeast and Souteast) at lower frequencies. Other example is DYS448=18 that made up about 5-6% of 404 tested people from Montenegro in a scientific study or 25% of Dinaric south, results belong to Ozrinitsi cluster with a known common ancestor in late middle ages. There will be more such examples as we get more results.
Aren’t this examples of a recent expansion of shepherd tribes?

I have not invented Medieval Vlach expansion in Dinaric Alps, there are plenty of text about it on internet and scientific researches, unfortunately without the answer about the origin of the groups or if they were locals there or penetrate the area after expansion of Medieval Bosnian state. Here is one paper about it: https://hrcak.srce.hr/81281
It is a good question how and when I-PH908 bearers (or only part of them) acquired Transhumance as the main occupation, whether or Balkans or somewhere else. For Slavs it is uncommon, most of Slavs were an agricultural society with only domestic animals around their homes, except the group of the Slavs that lived in Carpathian region of Western Ukraine. From that region, most of them moved to Balkans during great Migration.


There are also many theories about the origin of Croats, the time of arrival on Balkan and area where they lived before migrations. Before Dalmatia, some historians think they were in Carantania or Avar Khaganate, other place them in North Bohemia and Southern Poland as a West Slavic Tribe. While many of Russian historians consider them as an East Slavic tribe that originated in Prycarpathia.
As I remember Russian archaeologists link expansion of White Croats with “The Carpathian Tumuli culture” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Tumuli_culture and appearance of burials with Kurgans on West Slavic territories:
https://i.postimg.cc/3RttQSV9/Kurgans.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Non-Russian archaeologist do not agree and link this culture to Dacian influence on Early Slavs.
As for everything else, modern history and archaeology give us many different answers on questions about the origin of the Croats. Also, I have to mention the opinion of famous American historian John V. A. Fine that Croats were just a small ruling elite and did not leave large genetic influence:
https://www.amazon.com/When-Ethnicity-Matter-Balkans-Pre-Nationalist/dp/047211414X
If White Croats had I-S17250 they might spread only a small part of it or a part of I-PH908, most of tested I-S17250 probably have no any connection with White Croats but very likely to a larger group of Slavs bearers of Prague-Korchak culture, in some sources called Sclavini.

Anyway, if someone has a good map of “Croat” toponyms (or just a list) in Slovenia, Austria, CZ, Germany, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Greece etc. it would be nice to post it on the Forum.
It is not the question only about Croats, it is same with origins of Medieval Serbs and Bulgarians and their real genetic influence. We know that they were three the most important Slavic states in the past, but also know that they were three tribes among at least 30-40 other Slavic plus non-Slavic tribes that were assimilated by them.
Only Archeogenetics/Ancient DNA can give us some (partial) answers, before it we can only guess Y-dna.

Also, I have to mention that there were several penetrations of Balkan from North Carpathians and Western Ukraine before Slavs and some sublclades might came a bit earlier not only A2512, e.g.


Costoboci https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costoboci, they reached Greece in a large number and might be linked to Y18331/A2512, or maybe Goths who also were in South Greece. Only what is missed for such links is Y18331/A2512 in North Carpathians or somewhere in Ukraine. Except for a younger branch of A2512 among Chuvash, no one else on the North was confirmed to belong to this branch. So, it might came to Greece even from Pannonia. Someone who knows the history of Peloponnese and surrounding areas might suggest possible migrations between 5 B.C – 5. A.C.
Carpi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpi_(people)
Bastarnae, some of them were settled in Trakia and Dardania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae
Huns, among them, were many other subjugated tribes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns
And others

There are many people on Forums who think that part of I-PH908 and I-Z17855 came with some Pre-Slavic migrations. Of course, there is no right answer now so we must respect and take in consideration every opinion.

Vlad82
29-09-18, 14:32
Nice find Vlad. I've been interested in the distribution frequency and diversity of Slavic subclades for a while but didn't think to search for non-English sources. Do you have anything similar for the Slavic subclades of R1a? I'm especially interested to know if there are any subclades that are more Western Balkanic and other that are more Eastern.

As for I2a, it seems that Greece got most of its Slavic ancestry from the very early waves of Slavic settlers, while ex-Yugoslavia was settled, or re-settled, by later ones. Bulgaria and Macedonia are less clear.

Thank you!
Unfortunately, I have no good maps of R1a subclades.
There are some differences from Western on one side and Central/East Balkan on the other side.
First of all Western and Nothern Croatia have higher percentages of R1a than I-CTS10228 and a higher ratio of Dinaric North among I-CTS10228.
Most of their Dinaric North is S17250, but in Slovenia we have also confirmed I-Y4460 results.
On the Eastern/Central/South Balkan we have more diversity (but more tested people, too) of I-CTS10228, the most common subclade of Dinaric North in Central and Eastern Balkan is I-Z17855 which is very rare in Croatia, as I know only two Croats (one of them Bunjevac from Serbia, other unknown location) and several Serbs from Croatia were confirmed positive. In general, I-Z17855 is rare there.
Sublcades of R1-Z280/Y2613 is very frequent in Western Croatia, Slovenia and Alps, while it is very rare on Central or Eastern Balkan. R-M458/L260 is more common for West Balkan, too.
I am not an expert for R1a (actually I know very little about it) and general for Genetic Genealogy and history, but it seems that in West Balkan we have more influence of migration from Western Slavic countries and Western Pannonia (West of Danube) while in Central and Eastern Balkan we have more influence of migrations from Eastern Pannonia (East Avoro Slavs - East of Danube) and territory of nowadays Romania. Bosnia and Hercegovina is a mixed representation of both waves (or better to say several waves).
Also worth mentioned that there are some areas in Trakia, South Peloponnese, Croatian Island and East Tyrol (Slavs who came from West Pannonia) with almost all R1a and very little I-CTS10228). Upper Sorbs from Lusatia (Germany) that according to archaeology should be descendants of AvaroSlavs from Western Panonnia are almost exclusively R1a. West Pannonia and West Balkan were settled by at least two group of Slavs, from North (Poland) and East (Western Ukraine), and maybe a slight influence of AvaroSlavs east of Danube.
There are also some rare branches of R-M458 on Central and EastBalkan (branch of Dibran and R1a-M458/A11460)
I think a lot of R-M458 on Central and East Balkan belong to R-M458/1029 with many YP417.
R-Z280/YP4278 is very rare, almost absent on West Bakan but present on Central and East.
I do not follow R1a results, please do not take this for granted, probably people who belong to R1a and research their HG can explain the situation better.

Gabriele Pashaj
29-09-18, 14:43
A diversity of S17250 in Western Ukraine and its spreading show a high correlation with the expansion of Slavs from Prague Korchak culture. There are at least 50 Medieval Slavic tribes that could be connected to this culture.
https://i.postimg.cc/rmm0dQZD/Prague_Korchak.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Slavs from this culture from Western Ukraine migrated towards Balkan using routes of outer Carpathians, to East and Central Balkan via Moldova and Wallachia down to Greece, and to West Balkan via South Poland Slovakia and Western Pannonia down to the Adriatic Sea.
It is not clear what were ratios of R1a (especially Z280) and I-CTS10228 (South/North) among tribes from Korchak area. We should wait for more results to be able to identify it, anyway it seems that group who travelled Eastward to Central Balkan had a higher ratio of Dinaric South than Dinaric North; while the group from Slovakia, South Poland and West Balkan and West Pannonia had more Dinaric North . This conclusion is based on the current situation; it does not mean that 1500 years ago we had exactly the same situation, some subclades can have a higher rate of expansion than others.
Primarily, here I think on expansion on I-PH908 in Central and Western Balkan at a much higher rate than Dinaric North and R1a subclades. There are also similar examples in other HG’s as well, but more locally (do not cover such a big territory).
Medieval shepherds groups called Vlach are phenomena that appeared in late middle age, and it is not clear if they and how much are connected with Pre-Slavic population. Some authors consider them non-Slavic mostly because their main occupation was transhumance which was not common for the rest of the Slavs who were mostly agricultural society. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumance and some Romance name of their leaders and katuns.
While other authors think, they were Slavic or a mix of Slavic and Non-Slavic population. Nothing is clear about the area of their origin or language they spoke(probably Slavic, some think they were bilingual).
There is no other HG in Balkans that match described dispersion and migrations of Medieval Vlach as I-PH908 does.
Western Bulgaria, Western Wallachia, East Serbia, Dinaric Alps, rest of Bosnia and Croatia. All regions are characterized by dominance of I-PH908 or DYS448=19, and all are common for shepherd groups mentioned in historical sources.
Historical sources have plenty of references that mentioned Vlach tribes in Dinaric Alps, I would mention some of them which first come to my mind: Ozrinitsi, Niksitsi, Pilatovtsi, Zubtsi, Burmazi, Morlaks, Bunjevtsi, Ridjani, Hrabreni etc. As I know their descendant have been tested as I-PH908.
For example subbranch of I-PH908 with a distinctive value DYS19=14 made up about 10% of all I-PH908 results from Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro, in Croatian part of Hercegovina probably even more, according to STR calculations and two Big Y results tested people on Western Balkan have TMRCA about 1000 years ago. Haplotypes with this values DYS19=14 and DYS448=19 are also observed in Macedonia, Greek Macedonia, Bulgaria, Romania, North Moldova and Poland (Northeast and Souteast) at lower frequencies. Other example is DYS448=18 that made up about 5-6% of 404 tested people from Montenegro in a scientific study or 25% of Dinaric south, results belong to Ozrinitsi cluster with a known common ancestor in late middle ages. There will be more such examples as we get more results.
Aren’t this examples of a recent expansion of shepherd tribes?

I have not invented Medieval Vlach expansion in Dinaric Alps, there are plenty of text about it on internet and scientific researches, unfortunately without the answer about the origin of the groups or if they were locals there or penetrate the area after expansion of Medieval Bosnian state. Here is one paper about it: https://hrcak.srce.hr/81281
It is a good question how and when I-PH908 bearers (or only part of them) acquired Transhumance as the main occupation, whether or Balkans or somewhere else. For Slavs it is uncommon, most of Slavs were an agricultural society with only domestic animals around their homes, except the group of the Slavs that lived in Carpathian region of Western Ukraine. From that region, most of them moved to Balkans during great Migration.


There are also many theories about the origin of Croats, the time of arrival on Balkan and area where they lived before migrations. Before Dalmatia, some historians think they were in Carantania or Avar Khaganate, other place them in North Bohemia and Southern Poland as a West Slavic Tribe. While many of Russian historians consider them as an East Slavic tribe that originated in Prycarpathia.
As I remember Russian archaeologists link expansion of White Croats with “The Carpathian Tumuli culture” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Tumuli_culture and appearance of burials with Kurgans on West Slavic territories:
https://i.postimg.cc/3RttQSV9/Kurgans.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Non-Russian archaeologist do not agree and link this culture to Dacian influence on Early Slavs.
As for everything else, modern history and archaeology give us many different answers on questions about the origin of the Croats. Also, I have to mention the opinion of famous American historian John V. A. Fine that Croats were just a small ruling elite and did not leave large genetic influence:
https://www.amazon.com/When-Ethnicity-Matter-Balkans-Pre-Nationalist/dp/047211414X
If White Croats had I-S17250 they might spread only a small part of it or a part of I-PH908, most of tested I-S17250 probably have no any connection with White Croats but very likely to a larger group of Slavs bearers of Prague-Korchak culture, in some sources called Sclavini.

Anyway, if someone has a good map of “Croat” toponyms (or just a list) in Slovenia, Austria, CZ, Germany, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Greece etc. it would be nice to post it on the Forum.
It is not the question only about Croats, it is same with origins of Medieval Serbs and Bulgarians and their real genetic influence. We know that they were three the most important Slavic states in the past, but also know that they were three tribes among at least 30-40 other Slavic plus non-Slavic tribes that were assimilated by them.
Only Archeogenetics/Ancient DNA can give us some (partial) answers, before it we can only guess Y-dna.

Also, I have to mention that there were several penetrations of Balkan from North Carpathians and Western Ukraine before Slavs and some sublclades might came a bit earlier not only A2512, e.g.


Costoboci https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costoboci, they reached Greece in a large number and might be linked to Y18331/A2512, or maybe Goths who also were in South Greece. Only what is missed for such links is Y18331/A2512 in North Carpathians or somewhere in Ukraine. Except for a younger branch of A2512 among Chuvash, no one else on the North was confirmed to belong to this branch. So, it might came to Greece even from Pannonia. Someone who knows the history of Peloponnese and surrounding areas might suggest possible migrations between 5 B.C – 5. A.C.
Carpi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpi_(people)
Bastarnae, some of them were settled in Trakia and Dardania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae
Huns, among them, were many other subjugated tribes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns
And others

There are many people on Forums who think that part of I-PH908 and I-Z17855 came with some Pre-Slavic migrations. Of course, there is no right answer now so we must respect and take in consideration every opinion.

Very interesting given that I-CTS10228 IS MY YDNA


Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

hrvat22
29-09-18, 15:45
Vlad82 (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/52183-Vlad82)


There are at least 50 Medieval Slavic tribes that could be connected to this culture.

How many haplotypes and branches could be connected to this culture?



There is no other HG in Balkans that match described dispersion and migrations of Medieval Vlach as I-PH908 does.

Original Vlachs are not I-PH908, that they have this subclade of I2a then they would not come with Slavs, Croats to the Balkans.

Vlachs genetic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians#Genetic_studies

Whether the Vlachs assimilated some Croatian tribes does not mean that I-PH908 or other subclades are original Vlach subclades.


Western Bulgaria, Western Wallachia, East Serbia, Dinaric Alps, rest of Bosnia and Croatia. All regions are characterized by dominance of I-PH908 or DYS448=19,

Porfirogenet suggests that Croats inhabit Illyria, Dalmatia and Pannonia.

This map shows migration from White Croatia to more directions.

http://www.waughfamily.ca/Ancient/Tree%20and%20Map%20for%20Hg%20I.pdf


and all are common for shepherd groups mentioned in historical sources.

Shepherd groups do not have one or two haplotype, for that you do not need any other proof than the logic. Whether they later had been called as Vlachs is another matter.



Historical sources have plenty of references that mentioned Vlach tribes in Dinaric Alps, I would mention some of them which first come to my mind: Ozrinitsi, Niksitsi, Pilatovtsi, Zubtsi, Burmazi, Morlaks, Bunjevtsi, Ridjani, Hrabreni etc. As I know their descendant have been tested as I-PH908.

It has nothing to do with the original settlers. There is assimilation on all sides.


For example subbranch of I-PH908 with a distinctive value DYS19=14 made up about 10% of all I-PH908 results from Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro, in Croatian part of Hercegovina probably even more, according to STR calculations and two Big Y results tested people on Western Balkan have TMRCA about 1000 years ago. Haplotypes with this values DYS19=14 and DYS448=19 are also observed in Macedonia, Greek Macedonia, Bulgaria, Romania, North Moldova and Poland (Northeast and Souteast) at lower frequencies. Other example is DYS448=18 that made up about 5-6% of 404 tested people from Montenegro in a scientific study or 25% of Dinaric south, results belong to Ozrinitsi cluster with a known common ancestor in late middle ages. There will be more such examples as we get more results.
Aren’t this examples of a recent expansion of shepherd tribes?

What it has to do with original Vlachs?


I have not invented Medieval Vlach expansion in Dinaric Alps, there are plenty of text about it on internet and scientific researches, unfortunately without the answer about the origin of the groups or if they were locals there or penetrate the area after expansion of Medieval Bosnian state. Here is one paper about it:

Mehmed Zilli (25 March 1611 – 1682), known as Evliya Çelebi (Ottoman Turkish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Turkish_language): اوليا چلبى‎), was an Ottoman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire) explorer who travelled through the territory of the Ottoman Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire) and neighboring lands ...

Evliya Çelebi travels through Dalmatia and does not see Vlachs, but he see Croats.

Mehmed-paša Sokolović, the great vizier of the Ottoman Empire, gives the Order in 1566....in Budim, Timisoara and Dubrovnik from all Croatian people do not ask for charity if this people belong to the Greek patriarch.

etc..etc..



There are also many theories about the origin of Croats, the time of arrival on Balkan and area where they lived before migrations. Before Dalmatia, some historians think they were in Carantania or Avar Khaganate, other place them in North Bohemia and Southern Poland as a West Slavic Tribe. While many of Russian historians consider them as an East Slavic tribe that originated in Prycarpathia.

For now genetics says that Croatians coming from southeastern Poland and southwestern Ukraine, maybe it could change in the future, this is for now.


As I remember Russian archaeologists link expansion of White Croats with “The Carpathian Tumuli culture”

He has Croatian genetics and now is the right time to prove it.



John V. A. Fine that Croats were just a small ruling elite and did not leave large genetic influence:

He has Croatian genetics and now is the right time to prove it.


If White Croats had I-S17250 they might spread only a small part of it or a part of I-PH908, most of tested I-S17250 probably have no any connection with White Croats but very likely to a larger group of Slavs bearers of Prague-Korchak culture, in some sources called Sclavini.

The son has nothing to do with his father?


Anyway, if someone has a good map of “Croat” toponyms (or just a list) in Slovenia, Austria, CZ, Germany, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Greece etc. it would be nice to post it on the Forum.

I have this but in Croatian

http://www.kapitaltrade.hr/wp-content/uploads/Toponimi-s-Karpata.jpg

https://hrcak.srce.hr/171401


It is not the question only about Croats, it is same with origins of Medieval Serbs and Bulgarians and their real genetic

Problem is that genetics proves historical records only for Croatian migration to Roman Dalmatia.


There are many people on Forums who think that part of I-PH908 and I-Z17855 came with some Pre-Slavic migrations. Of course, there is no right answer now so we must respect and take in consideration every opinion.

If genetics says this in the future then this will be fact which we will respect
and based on this make different conclusions.

Dibran
29-09-18, 23:58
I think some forget that these tribes minimally and en mass were migrating to the Balkans for some 1500-1600 odd years now. That is more than enough time for lines to change hands through various cultures. I suppose its all dependent on matches. Some early Sklavenoi tribes, especially in Greece and Albania, were assimilated by the Byzantines, and could have likely moved with Vlachs rather than directly with Slavs. The proportion for instance of Slavic YDNA in Albania proper is higher than the autosomal impact of Slavic DNA. some of it could be due to indirect assimilation. Changing hands from Proto-Slavic, to Latin speak Vlach to Albanian or Greek etc.

Most of the arguments on the web are conjecture, which is why you never see major genetics corporation dabbling in this sort of drivel. It is simply too early to make broad generalizations.

Dibran
30-09-18, 00:05
Thank you!
Unfortunately, I have no good maps of R1a subclades.
There are some differences from Western on one side and Central/East Balkan on the other side.
First of all Western and Nothern Croatia have higher percentages of R1a than I-CTS10228 and a higher ratio of Dinaric North among I-CTS10228.
Most of their Dinaric North is S17250, but in Slovenia we have also confirmed I-Y4460 results.
On the Eastern/Central/South Balkan we have more diversity (but more tested people, too) of I-CTS10228, the most common subclade of Dinaric North in Central and Eastern Balkan is I-Z17855 which is very rare in Croatia, as I know only two Croats (one of them Bunjevac from Serbia, other unknown location) and several Serbs from Croatia were confirmed positive. In general, I-Z17855 is rare there.
Sublcades of R1-Z280/Y2613 is very frequent in Western Croatia, Slovenia and Alps, while it is very rare on Central or Eastern Balkan. R-M458/L260 is more common for West Balkan, too.
I am not an expert for R1a (actually I know very little about it) and general for Genetic Genealogy and history, but it seems that in West Balkan we have more influence of migration from Western Slavic countries and Western Pannonia (West of Danube) while in Central and Eastern Balkan we have more influence of migrations from Eastern Pannonia (East Avoro Slavs - East of Danube) and territory of nowadays Romania. Bosnia and Hercegovina is a mixed representation of both waves (or better to say several waves).
Also worth mentioned that there are some areas in Trakia, South Peloponnese, Croatian Island and East Tyrol (Slavs who came from West Pannonia) with almost all R1a and very little I-CTS10228). Upper Sorbs from Lusatia (Germany) that according to archaeology should be descendants of AvaroSlavs from Western Panonnia are almost exclusively R1a. West Pannonia and West Balkan were settled by at least two group of Slavs, from North (Poland) and East (Western Ukraine), and maybe a slight influence of AvaroSlavs east of Danube.
There are also some rare branches of R-M458 on Central and EastBalkan (branch of Dibran and R1a-M458/A11460)
I think a lot of R-M458 on Central and East Balkan belong to R-M458/1029 with many YP417.
R-Z280/YP4278 is very rare, almost absent on West Bakan but present on Central and East.
I do not follow R1a results, please do not take this for granted, probably people who belong to R1a and research their HG can explain the situation better.


Just a correction, I am not A11460. I believe the Polish user Rethel is that clade(if I am not mistaken). I actually turned out L1029* basal. After testing my novel SNPs on 2 matches. They are both positive for Y333183. This sub-clade is a 'Albanian' founder effect. So far 2 confirmed Albanian with origin from Diber(both in Albania and Macedonia). 2 other Albanians from the Boattini 2015 study, one Gheg one Tosk also have matching STRs and are likely part of this cluster. Another Albanian from Gostivar who is L1029 is testing now to confirm if he is part of the cluster. As well as 2 additional Albanians that may or may not be matches(given some oral history associated with these testers). All in all if they test positive as well, that will be a total of 7 Albanian families that are part of this founder effect under L1029. I didn't test all my novels, but of the ones I tested, current TMRCA between all the Albanian matches and myself is 1100ypb. If this turns out to be correct once all is said and done, I would assume it was assimilated with the first Bulgarian Empire, if not earlier assimilation of Avaro-Slavic tribes into Byzantines before changing hands into Albanian clans.

basal L1029 is not too common in the Balkans, but it has been found in Bulgarians, Romanians, Macedonians and Greeks. Most of East Balkan L1029 is YP417 as you have stated. I have one or 2 matches(albeit 2000-2300ypb) that are YP417 from Bulgaria. Y333183 likely splits L1029 forming a new branch so far specific to Albanians. Perhaps its one of the first Proto-Slavic waves that were assimilated early on and then flourished in Albanian clans.

I read a study where M458 reaches as high as 25 percent in Nogai, KaraNogai, and Karakalpaks. It reaches roughly 5 percent in Bashkirs, and 20 percent in Adyghe, Shapsug, Dargins, and Lezgins. Given its high percentage in some turkic speaking groups, I hypothesized that it moved with not only Proto-Slavs, but Pannonian Avars and Volga Bulgars. Its suspected that M458 may be an offshoot of Trziniec Culture. This culture was an offshoot of Corded Ware, and its geographical border encompassed the Volga region as well as up to the Ural.

So I think its definitely possible that some M458 in the Balkans and Central Europe are due to Avars, and Volga Bulgars that founded the Bulgarian Empire. It makes sense honestly. Just look where M458 is most common. Everywhere these Polities had dominion. Bulgaria, Romania, Macedonia, South East Serbia, Central Europe etc.

Time will tell of course, but I find it rather asinine to assume all of M458 was locked in the pripyat marshes for all time like some titans caged in tartarus lol. It could very well have expanded out from there in antiquity and moved with these. So in summation I think M458 as far as Balkans is concerned is Bulgars, Avars, Proto-Slavs. Maybe in some rare cases(if such were assimilated very early) a Goth.

Vlad82
30-09-18, 17:14
How many haplotypes and branches could be connected to this culture?
I am talking about S17250, not sure that other subclades show correlation with Prague-Korchak horizon. I cannot be sure if all S17250 can be linked only to this culture, maybe some subclades entered Penkovka or Sukow-Dziedzice culture. There are not many tested people from the area of the S-D culture, but for example, S17250>>BY128/Y5596 seems to be often in the west part of Poland, Germany, CZ, Western Pannonia. So part of this subclade might earlier migrated towards west.


What it has to do with original Vlachs?
Evliya Çelebi travels through Dalmatia and does not see Vlachs, but he see Croats.


Historical sources from the coastal towns see Vlach and make the difference between them Serbs and Croats. Only their descendants nowadays do not see them. How Vlach saw themselves ethnically nobody knows. What their origin was also nobody knows, if you ask me probably mixed, maybe even they were just a class in like some people suggest.


Problem is that genetics proves historical records only for Croatian migration to Roman Dalmatia.

You are forgetting that Porfirogenit mentioned Croats, Serbs, Zahumlyanians, Travunians and Konavlians in one chapter as separate tribes, while in another chapter last three tribes were mentioned as Serbs or under control of Serbs. He also mentioned Avaro-Slavs who devastated Dalmatia
Byzantium sources mentioned Dacian Slavs crossing the Danube (middle of the six century) approaching Nish were they divided in three big groups, first went to Trace and Marmara Sea, the second moved down Epirus and Peloponnese and the third big group crossed the Illyrian mountains and finished in Dalmatia. In addition to this a historian Moses from Horena, who lived close to that time, wrote that 25 Slavic tribes, which lived to Dacia, moved to Greece and Dalmatia.
Then we had the arrival of the Proto Bulgarians when some Slavic from nowadays East Serbia and West Bulgaria moved toward the west, Timochans to West Serbia and Bosnia, Guduschans to Lika.

Then came Vlach (an exonym for shepherd groups) from late medieval time, and according to some theories they migrated from the Central Balkan to Bosnia and Dinaric Alps.
At the end, Ottoman Turks conquest of the Balkan caused some migration from Central to West Balkan.
What haplogrops did these migrations bring to West Balkan?
You can find the same HGs not only PH908 widespread from Slovenia to Black Sea, and from Aegean to North Carpathians.
How can you figure out what come with all mentioned migrations if you only now that haplogroups like PH908 or I-CTS10228 are 2000 years old, maybe even 3000?
You can also find the same confirmed SNPs on West – Central – East Balkan, and similar haplotypes not deeper tested.
Some not Slavic tribes could also brought I-CTS10228 e.g Goths, Huns, Avars, Bulgarians, like it was found in Medieval Hungarian graves.
So I think it is pointless to argue about Y-dna of Croats or Serbs without Ancient DNA results. It might happen that most of South Slavic tribes had similar mix of Y-dna.

Vlad82
30-09-18, 17:37
Just a correction, I am not A11460. I believe the Polish user Rethel is that clade(if I am not mistaken). I actually turned out L1029* basal. After testing my novel SNPs on 2 matches. They are both positive for Y333183. This sub-clade is a 'Albanian' founder effect. So far 2 confirmed Albanian with origin from Diber(both in Albania and Macedonia). 2 other Albanians from the Boattini 2015 study, one Gheg one Tosk also have matching STRs and are likely part of this cluster. Another Albanian from Gostivar who is L1029 is testing now to confirm if he is part of the cluster. As well as 2 additional Albanians that may or may not be matches(given some oral history associated with these testers). All in all if they test positive as well, that will be a total of 7 Albanian families that are part of this founder effect under L1029. I didn't test all my novels, but of the ones I tested, current TMRCA between all the Albanian matches and myself is 1100ypb. If this turns out to be correct once all is said and done, I would assume it was assimilated with the first Bulgarian Empire, if not earlier assimilation of Avaro-Slavic tribes into Byzantines before changing hands into Albanian clans.

basal L1029 is not too common in the Balkans, but it has been found in Bulgarians, Romanians, Macedonians and Greeks. Most of East Balkan L1029 is YP417 as you have stated. I have one or 2 matches(albeit 2000-2300ypb) that are YP417 from Bulgaria. Y333183 likely splits L1029 forming a new branch so far specific to Albanians. Perhaps its one of the first Proto-Slavic waves that were assimilated early on and then flourished in Albanian clans.

I read a study where M458 reaches as high as 25 percent in Nogai, KaraNogai, and Karakalpaks. It reaches roughly 5 percent in Bashkirs, and 20 percent in Adyghe, Shapsug, Dargins, and Lezgins. Given its high percentage in some turkic speaking groups, I hypothesized that it moved with not only Proto-Slavs, but Pannonian Avars and Volga Bulgars. Its suspected that M458 may be an offshoot of Trziniec Culture. This culture was an offshoot of Corded Ware, and its geographical border encompassed the Volga region as well as up to the Ural.

So I think its definitely possible that some M458 in the Balkans and Central Europe are due to Avars, and Volga Bulgars that founded the Bulgarian Empire. It makes sense honestly. Just look where M458 is most common. Everywhere these Polities had dominion. Bulgaria, Romania, Macedonia, South East Serbia, Central Europe etc.

Time will tell of course, but I find it rather asinine to assume all of M458 was locked in the pripyat marshes for all time like some titans caged in tartarus lol. It could very well have expanded out from there in antiquity and moved with these. So in summation I think M458 as far as Balkans is concerned is Bulgars, Avars, Proto-Slavs. Maybe in some rare cases(if such were assimilated very early) a Goth.

Thank on your explanation Dibran!
I knew that you are L1029, and not A11460, just wanted to say that both might be rare subclades.
A11460 is rare on the North, but there are confirmed or predicted results of this SNP in Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia and B&H. It is rare on Balkans but seems more frequently appears than among North Slavs.

Dibran
30-09-18, 17:51
Thank on your explanation Dibran!
I knew that you are L1029, and not A11460, just wanted to say that both might be rare subclades.
A11460 is rare on the North, but there are confirmed or predicted results of this SNP in Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia and B&H. It is rare on Balkans but seems more frequently appears than among North Slavs.



Ahh I see what you meant. Gave it a second read. My bad. Yea I did see somewhere one confirmed case of A11460 in Kosova. I am not sure if they were Albanian or Serbian though.

hrvat22
30-09-18, 19:16
Vlad82 (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/52183-Vlad82)


I am talking about S17250, not sure that other subclades show correlation with Prague-Korchak horizon. I cannot be sure if all S17250 can be linked only to this culture, maybe some subclades entered Penkovka or Sukow-Dziedzice culture.

This means that subclade S17250 is a link between all these 50 medieval Slavic tribes. The only historical data that this mutation proves is De administrando imperio which talks about migration of Croats to the Balkans.

It means that White Croatia and Croats are the source of S17250 and that all these 50 medieval Slavic tribes has partially White Croatian origin.


Historical sources from the coastal towns see Vlach and make the difference between them Serbs and Croats.

But other historical sources do not see Vlachs.

One Italian historical source in the continental part of Dalmatia sees Vlachs but on the islands of Dalmatia it does not see Vlachs although these islands are inhabited from continental part of Dalmatia.

This means that he made conclusions based on folk costumes and customs and it is his view of this Croatians.


You are forgetting that Porfirogenit mentioned Croats, Serbs, Zahumlyanians, Travunians and Konavlians in one chapter as separate tribes,

Yes, it is interesting that leader of Zahumlyanians coming from Visla in Poland and Porphyrogenitus says that they are Serbians, but there is no Serbians around Visla (Serbs are at the border with Francia). However Serbs come to Eastern Dalmatia over Greece, such genetics in Croatia and Bosnia does not exist.


In addition to this a historian Moses from Horena, who lived close to that time, wrote that 25 Slavic tribes, which lived to Dacia, moved to Greece and Dalmatia.

For now I do not see genetics that prove this?


Then came Vlach (an exonym for shepherd groups) from late medieval time, and according to some theories they migrated from the Central Balkan to Bosnia and Dinaric Alps.

This means that PH908 is coming from central Balkans to Croatia? If you have proof for this show me.


You can find the same HGs not only PH908 widespread from Slovenia to Black Sea, and from Aegean to North Carpathians.

But still their source is one person(I-S17250)in White Croatia or White Croats.


Some not Slavic tribes could also brought I-CTS10228 e.g Goths, Huns, Avars, Bulgarians, like it was found in Medieval Hungarian graves.

Yes they could, but I-CTS10228 it's a grandfather of I-S17250, so these migrations probably start from the same house (White Croatia),I know it's a little strange but that's what genes say, not me. Of course for now.


So I think it is pointless to argue about Y-dna of Croats or Serbs without Ancient DNA results. It might happen that most of South Slavic tribes had similar mix of Y-dna.

I agree, we wait this data. However, today's genetics of peoples from "Roman Dalmatia" clearly confirm historical records of Croatian arrival, and for now we have to respect this.

Miroslav
08-10-18, 23:07
Yes, it is interesting that leader of Zahumlyanians coming from Visla in Poland and Porphyrogenitus says that they are Serbians, but there is no Serbians around Visla (Serbs are at the border with Francia).

Please don't spread false information "Constantine Porphyrogenitus, notes that Michael was a son of Busebutze (Greek: Bouseboutzis > Visevitz),[4][12] but does not mention his family did descend from the "unbaptized Serbs" or was of Serbian origin.[8][12] According to Constantine, or even Michael himself according to the way the subchapter was structured,[12] his family belonged to the Litziki (Λιτζίκη), an unbaptized people on the river Vistula from the south Poland.[4][13][12]"

Miroslav
08-10-18, 23:35
Aren’t this examples of a recent expansion of shepherd tribes?

Perhaps, but the more important issue is we should not consider and designate these populations of only "Slav", "Vlach" etc. identity. Both broad groups (migrant and native) from the beginning were more or less heterogeneous, and they intermixed, hence depending on a Balkan region should be instead perceived let's say mixed Albanian-Vlachian identity group, Vlachian-Slavic identity group and so on. Such a geographically broad perception is more realistic, especially for individual haplogroup subbranches, because most probably a specific SNP I-S17250 i.e. I-PH908 was widespread (with diverse percentage) throughout Eastern Europe, including Carpathian Basin. These mountains connect very well to the Dinaric Alps and there probably was a broad population which lived a similar shepherd lifestyle, which in the end concluded with the complex mixing between Vlachian and Slavic lifestyle and identity. As such some branches probably arrived before the Slavic migration, some during early or later Slavic migration, with diverse Slavic tribes, and of course, from different (Western, Northern, Eastern) direction.


Anyway, if someone has a good map of “Croat” toponyms (or just a list) in Slovenia, Austria, CZ, Germany, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Greece etc. it would be nice to post it on the Forum.

Well, a list can be found on English Wikipedia (see Name of Croatia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Croatia) and White Croats (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats)). As for a map, take into consideration the maps you uploaded because I will write an extensive reply which, for now, connects very well with them.

Miroslav
09-10-18, 03:12
This is a synthesis of up-to-now multidisciplinary scientific studies of the Slavic migration, specifically Croats and Serbs, to the Western Balkan. It is based around a map (with explanation below) which I made and in which creation tried to take into account reliable and sourced modern scientific arguments, conclusions, and evidence. Decided to do it because all the maps I saw until now were not made very well. It is a map of a territory for which is considered, by historical sources and scientific research, to be inhabited and/or controlled by White Croats (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats) - from East to West - Carpathian, Polish, and Czech tribes of the White Croats. In its boundary, it could reflect the, probably mythical, White or Old/Great Croatia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croatia) mentioned by Constantine VII in DAI.

Map:

The original interactive map
(https://www.scribblemaps.com/maps/view/White_Croats/7Dg4lkWLKr)
Photo of the map (https://www.dropbox.com/s/bllen2o3pliy4h4/White%20Croats%2C%20Croatia%2C%20Lusatia.jpg?dl=0)

Explanation:

Anthropology - in blue color are designated points of skeletal/cranial excavation sites which were researched by craniometric methods. As a reference was used work by Dr. M. Šlaus "Craniometric relationships of medieval Central European populations: Implications for Croat ethnogenesis" (1998) i "Kraniometrijska analiza srednjovjekovnih nalazišta središnje Europe: Novi dokazi o ekspanziji hrvatskih populacija tijekom 10.do 13. stoljeća" (2000). According to it, Old Croatian sites from Dalmatia (Nin, Danilo, Mravnice, Bribir) and two (Bugojno, Gomjanica) from Bosnia and Herzegovina, belong to the cluster with Old Polish sites (Cedynia, Wišlica, Lednicki), from which on a diagram Nin and Cedynia in parameters are basically identical. However, on the map is taken Lednicki as the starting point of the migration because it is most Southern Polish site, and because in the second paper is considered the direct route through sites Nitra-Lupka -> Zalaszabar-Dezsosziget -> Nin-Ždrijac. It opens the questions, which were the reasons for this, and not some other more Western (or Eastern) route of migration? In the territory of Western Balkan, the population from the narrow littoral core expanded to the North, initially into Bosnia and Herzegovina by the 10th century, and then into Zagorje (Northern Croatia) and Slavonija (Eastern Croatia) after 11th century, as according to research the initial skeletal remains of the Northern and Eastern Croatia do not belong to the Polish-Old Croatian cluster, but so-called Avaro-Slav cluster (roughly cluster of Slavic sites West/East of Danube). According to "Cultural inter-population differences do not reflect biological distances: an example of interdisciplinary analysis of populations from Eastern Adriatic coast" (2015), medieval skeletal remains of Šopot and Ostrovica (also from Northern Dalmatia) also belonged to the Polish-Old Croatian cluster, concluding that "As previously shown (6), all the sites were in vicinity to Polish sites and were separated from the other analyzed sites. PCA showed that all Eastern Adriatic coast sites were closely related in cranial morphology, and thus, most likely had similar biological makeup".

Historiography - in red color are designated boundaries of the territory on which presumably lived White Croatian tribes. Some parts on the map were intentionally not connected to make them separate and distinctive region according to country (Ukraine, Poland, Czech Republic), but can be easily seen were would be connected. According to the relatively common consideration by historians and archaeologists (Sedov 1995, Budak 2018), the Croatian tribes migrated from the East to the West and so they initially lived in the territory of Western Ukraine specifically Prykarpattia and Zakarpattia. Here were noted several gords which are mentioned by Korčinskij (2000, 2006) and Magocsi (2002), like Stiljsko, Zhydachiv, Halych, Krylos, Uzhhorod. To the East is dotted gord Terebovlya in the region of Podolia, while to the West is dotted toponym Chorvaty in Slovakia (earliest mention since the 13th century). In the territory of Lesser Poland, as the Eastern point is designated gord Przemysl, and boundaries are based on a detailed description by Kupchyns'ski (went from Prykarpattia; cited by Korčinskij 2006). To the West is dotted toponym Charvaty in Moravia (earliest mention since the 13th century). The territory of the Czech boundary around the upper part of river Elbe is basically identical (a bit unsure about it which looks like a letter "V") to the one found in the book by Sedov (1995), and there is also designated gord Libice where lived the Slavnik dynasty, by some scholars considered as of White Croatian origin. To the West are dotted toponyms Großkorbetha and Korbetha (earliest mention since the 9th-10th century) located West of Leipzig in Germany. As an additional mention; the Arabian sources in the 10th century recorded a country-city "Hurdab/ʒ(h)-rāwat" near river Prut in Ukraine, saying that there live the rulers, which archaeologists speculated to be Stiljsko because it is of incredible proportions (250 ha, gord itself 15 ha), but also that ruler Svatopluk (referring to the Svatopluk I of Moravia), lives in the city of "ʒ-r-wāb (Džervab > Hrwat)", which indicates a direct relation of the White Croats with two or at least one very important Slavic capital city. Perhaps, they were on the territory of the White Croats or they controlled them. Modern archaeologists consider that the White Croats (specifically referring to the Carpathian and Czech tribes) had the most advanced technology of fortification, and interestingly, besides the typical burial practices by other Slavs, they also created kurgans and tombstones. In conclusion, besides being geographically widespread (present among both Western and Eastern Slavs), technologically advanced, they had to be numerous because of war with Avars (both in the North and the South), Hungarians, Pechenegs, Franks, to be in the end defeated and assimilated by the Kievan Rus' (Ukrainians), Bohemia (Czechs), and Poland (where around Krakow persisted the "Bielochrovat" identity until the 20th century).

East of the last toponyms and Northeastern of Czech tribes, in yellow color, is dotted the boundary of the territory of Lusatia where live the Sorbs, sometimes called as the Lusatian Serbs. Historians through the centuries argued various things about them, Sorbs and so-called White Serbs as well White Serbia, expanding their boundaries outside the usual territory between the rivers Elbe and Saale, but according to Sedov (1995), there's no archaeological evidence for such a hypothesis and the most probable is the conclusion by L. Niederle that there's no evidence for the existence of so-called White Serbia because Constantine VII made it up by analogy with White Croatia.

Archaeology - White Croats mainly lived in the territory of the Prague-Korchak culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague-Korchak_culture), usually related to the Slavic group called Sclaveni, and in Ukraine had a transition from the (Prague-)Penkovka culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penkovka_culture) (and the Luka-Rajkovecki culture, Marković 2014, Kuguljak/Tomenčuk 2017) usually related to the Slavic group called Antes from which allegedly emerged (Sedov 1995, Majorov 2012).

According to Sedov, Lusatian Sorbs would be a mixture of local Slavs of the Tornovo cultural group holders of the Sukow-Dziedzice culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukow-Dziedzice_group) and migrant Slavic holders of the so-called Rusyns cultural group (which lived for a period of time in the middle Danube area where got the middle Danube cultural elements) and partly Prague-Korchak culture, with a possible distant Antes origin. For this migrant group is speculated to the brought the Sorbian language and identity. However, while the situation about the White Croats is more-or-less is obvious, there's too much speculation on the part of Sorbs, especially for the migrant group.

Population genetics - there are several points to make:

1) Genetic research on the contemporary population of the Sorbs and Serbs indicates an interruption of continuity of ethnogenesis between these two groups, although most probably very related ethnic identities, because among the first is predominantly (circa 65%) R1a with a negligible percent (circa 4%) of I2 according to 2015 research, while among the second is almost the opposite proportion of percentages, especially around the region of Herzegovina (nevertheless of the ethnic identity, Serbian, Croatian or Bosniak). It means that the contemporary population genetics as a scientific discipline cannot be used and it does not confirm the speculation (I-S17250 >) I-PH908+ subbranches came with the Serbian tribes to the Balkan or can be considered as a specifically Serbian genetic marker.*

2) It is hard to surely consider something at the moment, including about the distribution of specific haplogroup subbranches and their individual or collective route of migration during the Slavic migration, was it on the territory of Central-Eastern and/or Eastern Europe, also among probably heterogenous tribal groups such as White Croats and Sorbs (i.e. Serbs). However, while the Sorbs i.e. Serbs could have emigrated from only one direction and that's from the "Western" route from Lusatia in Germany, the White Croats could have emigrated from both "Western" (Bohemia), "Central" (Lesser Poland-Galicia), "Eastern" (Galicia-Western Ukraine), among both Western and Eastern Slavs, depending on the military-political situation of the Avar Khaganate.

3) The similar, South (I2) > North (R1a), inclination is also found in Dalmatia and Southwestern Bosnia and Herzegovina where was the nucleus of the Old Croatian excavations sites, basically of the political principality and later kingdom. In other words, where was the opposite inclination (Western, Northwestern and partly continental Croatia) the initial population did not even belong to the Polish-Old Croatian craniometric cluster, yet Avaro-Slav related to the Danube which makes more sense to have a predominance of R1a, and perhaps gives a clue to the predominance of R1a and scarcity of I2 among the contemporary Sorbs (note on the migrant group with Danube cultural elements which arguably brought the Sorbian language and identity).

4) * I-S17250 formed circa 2200 YBP (200 BCE), expanded circa 1800 YBP (200 CE) > I-PH908 formed circa 1800 YBP (200 CE), and suddenly expanded (?) within the same century (200-300 CE) making over 20 sub-branches. Something's strange about PH908. However, what does it mean? It means that at least, by the current age formation and TMRCA, the expansion by which is meant the formation of sub-branches (or subclades if you wish) has occurred before the start of the Slavic migration to the Balkan (6th-7th century), and so the whole theory about the expansion of PH908+ with shepherding tribes and Vlachs and so on becomes chronologically discredited very easily by a superficial look at YFull YTree.

Ralphie Boy
09-10-18, 16:22
Another Greek Y18331+ A2512- was found by FTDNA, making it two Greeks who have this basal branch. The MRCA of A2512 is estimated to have formed 2,200 years ago. Maybe now that time gets moved forward and Y18331 has the 2,200 year estimate? There is one ancestral A2512* Greek as well (with no subbranches).

The rest of the people in A2512 are downstream: Greeks, East European Jews, Chuvash and Latin Americans with likely Greek ancestry—still no Slavs in the branches.

mihaitzateo
17-10-18, 21:17
Another Greek Y18331+ A2512- was found by FTDNA, making it two Greeks who have this basal branch. The MRCA of A2512 is estimated to have formed 2,200 years ago. Maybe now that time gets moved forward and Y18331 has the 2,200 year estimate? There is one ancestral A2512* Greek as well (with no subbranches).

The rest of the people in A2512 are downstream: Greeks, East European Jews, Chuvash and Latin Americans with likely Greek ancestry—still no Slavs in the branches.
2200 yrs ago is matching extremely well the migration of the Celts into Balkans.
I am not saying that Y18331+ A2512 is for sure Celtic, but this possibility can be also taken into account.
Usually is supposed that I2-din branches were either moved by Slavs or by fewer voices, by Thracians/Dacians.
I supposed in another thread, that some I2-din branches might have moved with Goths.
However, is known that Celts also migrated into Balkans and in Romania from somewhere more Eastwards.
They were migrating 2200 yrs ago or so.
So, there is very possible that some I2-din clades were moved by people that were assimilated by Celts and after,migrated with Celts Westwards.
No one knows if the Celts came from somewhere NE Europe or from E or from SE into Balkans and Romania.
If some Chuvash people got also this branch you found and some Latin Americans and some East European Jews, suddenly, Celts become a candidate of bearing this subclade.
Is weird how this subclade was not found in Iberia, but only in Latin Americans.....

Ralphie Boy
22-10-18, 16:20
Is weird how this subclade was not found in Iberia, but only in Latin Americans.....

The Latin Americans likely descend from a Greek ancestor or ancestors. There was someone named Juan Griego. The Chuvash men belong to the same family, from what I read/understood at the FTDNA blog.

I just tested Y60804- for an A10959 sub-branch. One A10959 branch is Greek-only so far, Y66912, under which is Y60804. I am waiting for my Y66192 result and expect to test positive for it. If it’s negative I might be A10959*, with no known sub-branches.

Salento
22-10-18, 16:42
The Latin Americans likely descend from a Greek ancestor or ancestors. There was someone named Juan Griego. The Chuvash men belong to the same family, from what I read/understood at the FTDNA blog.

I just tested Y60804- for an A10959 sub-branch. One A10959 branch is Greek-only so far, Y66912, under which is Y60804. I am waiting for my Y66192 result and expect to test positive for it. If it’s negative I might be A10959*, with no known sub-branches.
No they don’t. imo
Because Griego (Greco, Del Greco, La Greca,...) It’s an Italian surname that originated in Tuscany.
It doesn’t necessarily mean that this person came from Greece, because it’s also a nickname for a crafty or guileful person, for these were qualities traditionally attributed to the Ancient Greeks.

mihaitzateo
22-10-18, 16:54
No they don’t.
Because Griego (Greco, Del Greco, La Greca,...) It’s an Italian surname that originated in Tuscany.
It doesn’t necessarily mean that this person came from Greece, because it’s also a nickname for a crafty or guileful person, for these were qualities traditionally attributed to the Ancient Greeks.

Oh lol !
It means that this branch of I2 was either spread by Celts or by Goths.
Glad to see members from Eupedia that have such a vast knowledge.

Coming back to the Goths and Celts, I think history mentions that some Goths settled in Greece. Some Goths also settled in Italy.
As for Celts, did not searched too much, but was thinking that this branch of I2 got TMRCA of 2200 yrs before now, which is too early for Slavs and too early for Goths, also.
Also, another possibility is the people from Troy, which was proved to have existed but I do not know when the Trojan war took place.
After this Trojan war,according to the Greek legend some Trojans escaped to Italy.
If this branch is coming from Trojans, this would be really fascinating.

Wonomyro
22-10-18, 17:28
Oh lol ! It means that this branch of I2 was either spread by Celts or by Goths. Glad to see members from Eupedia that have such a vast knowledge. Coming back to the Goths and Celts, I think history mentions that some Goths settled in Greece. Some Goths also settled in Italy. As for Celts, did not searched too much, but was thinking that this branch of I2 got TMRCA of 2200 yrs before now, which is too early for Slavs and too early for Goths, also. Also, another possibility is the people from Troy, which was proved to have existed but I do not know when the Trojan war took place. After this Trojan war,according to the Greek legend some Trojans escaped to Italy. If this branch is coming from Trojans, this would be really fascinating. Troyans arrived with Slavs from Ukraine and Belarus? Interesting...

Atlantische
22-10-18, 22:32
Oh lol !
It means that this branch of I2 was either spread by Celts or by Goths.
Glad to see members from Eupedia that have such a vast knowledge.

Coming back to the Goths and Celts, I think history mentions that some Goths settled in Greece. Some Goths also settled in Italy.
As for Celts, did not searched too much, but was thinking that this branch of I2 got TMRCA of 2200 yrs before now, which is too early for Slavs and too early for Goths, also.
Also, another possibility is the people from Troy, which was proved to have existed but I do not know when the Trojan war took place.
After this Trojan war,according to the Greek legend some Trojans escaped to Italy.
If this branch is coming from Trojans, this would be really fascinating.
I2-CTS10228 is espesially common in areas settled by Goths and Celts, such as Italy and Western Europe. :laughing:

Dibran
22-10-18, 22:50
I2-CTS10228 is espesially common in areas settled by Goths and Celts, such as Italy and Western Europe. :laughing:

Its really not though. It could just as easily be attributed to the later Slavs who were also mercenaries in Spain during Moorish rule, and in Sicily by one of the eastern empires. Also the branch that this italian belongs to with Ralphie is the oldest cluster so far, and no South-Slavs belong to it yet other than East European Jews and Greeks. Given the TMRCA of 200BC and the Bastarnae who were hired by King Phillip and brought to Macedonia, in his case this is probably its means of arrival.

Atlantische
22-10-18, 23:03
Its really not though. It could just as easily be attributed to the later Slavs who were also mercenaries in Spain during Moorish rule, and in Sicily by one of the eastern empires. Also the branch that this italian belongs to with Ralphie is the oldest cluster so far, and no South-Slavs belong to it yet other than East European Jews and Greeks. Given the TMRCA of 200BC and the Bastarnae who were hired by King Phillip and brought to Macedonia, in his case this is probably its means of arrival.

Yes, Greeco-Jewish A10959 is probably only branch of CTS10228 that can not be associated with Slavic expansion.

Ralphie Boy
22-10-18, 23:24
We tend to think of Slavic invasions from the north when it comes to Greeks, but with the small amount of Steppe ancestry in Mycenaeans that was found so far, it looks like the north was coming in at a much earlier time. Northern people could have come to Greece and settled in Hellenistic/Roman/Byzantine times before the Slavs, but probably in nowhere near the same numbers. My ancestor could have come from the north in one of the earlier settlements or invasions.

Juan Griego was said to be Greek by one of FTDNA’s administrators in an I2a blog post—a man who went to the New World with the Spanish in 1538. Plus, doesn’t Griego mean Greek in Spanish?

LABERIA
22-10-18, 23:29
We tend to think of Slavic invasions from the north when it comes to Greeks, but with the small amount of Steppe ancestry in Mycenaeans that was found so far, it looks like the north was coming in at a much earlier time. Northern people could have come to Greece and settled in Hellenistic/Roman/Byzantine times before the Slavs, but probably not in the same numbers as Slavs. Among one of these could have been my ancestor.

Juan Griego was said to be Greek by one of FTDNA’s administrators in an I2a blog post—a man who went to the New World with the Spanish in 1538. Plus, doesn’t Griego mean Greek in Spanish?

Ok, but what does mean Griego (Greek) in 1538?

Wonomyro
22-10-18, 23:31
Griego could have been a Orthodox Christian.

Ralphie Boy
22-10-18, 23:32
Sorry I meant 1598 for Juan Griego.

http://i2aproject.blogspot.com/2017/05/may-2017-draft-trees-for-i-l621-and-i.html?m=1

mihaitzateo
23-10-18, 00:29
I was talking about this specific subclade of I2-din which surely did not moved with Slavic speakers migration from 600 AD:

The Latin Americans likely descend from a Greek ancestor or ancestors. There was someone named Juan Griego. The Chuvash men belong to the same family, from what I read/understood at the FTDNA blog.

I just tested Y60804- for an A10959 sub-branch. One A10959 branch is Greek-only so far, Y66912, under which is Y60804. I am waiting for my Y66192 result and expect to test positive for it. If it’s negative I might be A10959*, with no known sub-branches.
And yes is most possible that it moved with Celtic migration.
Some Celts remained in Romania, some settled in Balkans and Greece, some migrated Westward and settled in Italy, some moved even more Westward and settled in Spain.
It either moved with the Celtic migration or it belongs to the Trojan people.

Now about Trojan people, there is not much known about them but a thing is certain:
In Romania at Sarmisegetusa, a Dacian city, was found a color mosaic depicting some scene of the Trojan war.
This confirms the most common theory about the Trojans, that they were some kind of Thracians.
So a new theory could come:
Thracians bearing also I2-din migrated North fearing the Greek warriors, after the Trojan war and established there.
Later, Goths came and and these Thracians allied to Goths went to fight the Greeks and Roman Empire.
Later Thracians mingled with protoSlavs and formed the Slavs as we know now.
The Slavs went to take back their land from the Greeks and Romans.
A weird fact is that in Ukrainian highlanders from North Moldavia and Ukraine there is found some E-V13 specific branch.

Demizar
23-03-19, 15:33
Bonjour a l origine les serbes et les croates sont de culture bulgar, c est a dire des scythes