PDA

View Full Version : R1b DF27 in Iberia



Angela
05-08-17, 18:08
See:
Analysis of the R1b-DF27 haplogroup shows that a large fraction of Iberian Y-chromosome lineages originated recently in situhttps://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07710-x

"Haplogroup R1b-M269 comprises most Western European Y chromosomes; of its main branches, R1b-DF27 is by far the least known, and it appears to be highly prevalent only in Iberia. We have genotyped 1072 R1b-DF27 chromosomes for six additional SNPs and 17 Y-STRs in population samples from Spain, Portugal and France in order to further characterize this lineage and, in particular, to ascertain the time and place where it originated, as well as its subsequent dynamics. We found that R1b-DF27 is present in frequencies ~40% in Iberian populations and up to 70% in Basques, but it drops quickly to 6–20% in France. Overall, the age of R1b-DF27 is estimated at ~4,200 years ago, at the transition between the Neolithic and the Bronze Age, when the Y chromosome landscape of W Europe was thoroughly remodeled. In spite of its high frequency in Basques, Y-STR internal diversity of R1b-DF27 is lower there, and results in more recent age estimates; NE Iberia is the most likely place of origin of DF27. Subhaplogroup frequencies within R1b-DF27 are geographically structured, and show domains that are reminiscent of the pre-Roman Celtic/Iberian division, or of the medieval Christian kingdoms."

Angela
05-08-17, 20:14
http://media.springernature.com/m685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-07710-x/MediaObjects/41598_2017_7710_Fig1_HTML.jpgPCA of subhaplogroup frequencies:

http://media.springernature.com/m685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-07710-x/MediaObjects/41598_2017_7710_Fig3_HTML.jpg

Tomenable
05-08-17, 20:20
If North-Eastern Iberia is where DF27 originated, then how did it find its way to places such as Germany, Poland or Lithuania? One of ancient Bell Beaker men from Eastern Germany - I0806 (QLB28) - was DF27.

I'm also DF27.

Historically there were more expansions from East-Central Europe to Iberia than the other way around.

Angela
05-08-17, 20:20
Could someone get a better graphic of this map up? I think it's pretty interesting.


http://media.springernature.com/m685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-07710-x/MediaObjects/41598_2017_7710_Fig2_HTML.jpg

Tomenable
05-08-17, 20:40
I'm interested mainly in Z2552 (and downstream) but they don't have maps for this branch:

https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-07710-x/MediaObjects/41598_2017_7710_MOESM1_ESM.pdf

Z195 is the main branch in Iberia and it probably originated in situ, but not DF27 as a whole.

Pax Augusta
05-08-17, 20:41
Why did they use only Tuscans for this study? Wasn't better to use also North Italians? If Tuscans have 6% of R1b-DF27, Northwestern Italians could have even more.

49% in Iberians does it mean that Iberians have had a very strong founder effect?

"DF27 was first discovered by citizen scientists14 and, although among the burgeoning amateur genetic genealogy it is known to be frequent in Iberian populations and their overseas offshoots, few academic publications have been devoted to it. It was found in the 1000 Genome Project populations at a frequency of 49% in Iberians, 6% in Tuscans, 7% in British, and it was absent elsewhere except for admixed populations in the Americas: Colombia (40%), Puerto Rico (36%), Mexico (10%), Perú (8%), African-Americans (4%) and Afro-Caribbeans (2%)14, 15."

Pax Augusta
05-08-17, 21:09
Could someone get a better graphic of this map up? I think it's pretty interesting.

You can enlarge the pics.


http://i.imgur.com/aWLHezn.png
http://i.imgur.com/z45arES.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6oQgBTg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4jYorqO.png

Angela
05-08-17, 21:49
Why did they use only Tuscans for this study? Wasn't better to use also North Italians? If Tuscans have 6% of R1b-DF27, Northwestern Italians could have even more.
49% in Iberians does it mean that Iberians have had a very strong founder effect?
"DF27 was first discovered by citizen scientists14 and, although among the burgeoning amateur genetic genealogy it is known to be frequent in Iberian populations and their overseas offshoots, few academic publications have been devoted to it. It was found in the 1000 Genome Project populations at a frequency of 49% in Iberians, 6% in Tuscans, 7% in British, and it was absent elsewhere except for admixed populations in the Americas: Colombia (40%), Puerto Rico (36%), Mexico (10%), Perú (8%), African-Americans (4%) and Afro-Caribbeans (2%)14, 15."

I haven't drilled into the supporting documentation yet, but if they didn't look at Northern Italians, especially Northwestern Italians, that was a very bad oversight. I agree, there's probably more of it there.

It does look very much like founder effect.

Are we looking at Urnfield and Atlantic Bronze Age?

This is from Bell Beaker Blogger:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6Y7NA0Eff9M/Vk4RVgON2JI/AAAAAAAALps/x7M8FXEGhko/s1600/Map1000BC_Cultures01_big.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6Y7NA0Eff9M/Vk4RVgON2JI/AAAAAAAALps/x7M8FXEGhko/s1600/Map1000BC_Cultures01_big.jpg

berun
05-08-17, 22:26
If North-Eastern Iberia is where DF27 originated, then how did it find its way to places such as Germany, Poland or Lithuania? One of ancient Bell Beaker men from Eastern Germany - I0806 (QLB28) - was DF27.

I'm also DF27.

Historically there were more expansions from East-Central Europe to Iberia than the other way around.

Bell Beakers. The number of migrations is not a variable with that, moreover when the TMCRA is BB also.

Parafarne
07-08-17, 11:43
Hey TOMENABLE in my view DF27 started as a few small tribes in celtic core area of Eastern France then overwhelming majority of which settled Iberia creating a founder effect there and the few remaining tribes in France expanded to other areas in central europe.So outside Iberia DF27 shows french settlement except very small iberian one.

Parafarne
08-08-17, 09:47
Could someone please give the percentages for southern portugal and andalusia, thanks in advance ; )

St. Pierre
06-12-17, 23:41
My maternal grandfather was R1b-DF27-S225, his family name was changed by the family/priests to Raymond in Canada to honor the immigrant ancestor Romain de Faugas but in France the family name was de Faugas and the family was from Langon in SW France.

AdeoF
07-12-17, 01:47
If North-Eastern Iberia is where DF27 originated, then how did it find its way to places such as Germany, Poland or Lithuania? One of ancient Bell Beaker men from Eastern Germany - I0806 (QLB28) - was DF27.

I'm also DF27.

Historically there were more expansions from East-Central Europe to Iberia than the other way around.

I am of Spanish admixture and im not DF27 but R-L21 which is more in Celtic Europe. Im still surprised that you are DF27 and from Poland (which is a first for me). However it does show in the migration that DF27 did from central Europe so it can be that. Are you from North Poland by any chance???

stibo
26-12-17, 01:22
In case it is of use to anybody: I am DF27 - Z198. My family has traced our earliest known paternal ancestor to Île de Ré in West-Central France.

Olympus Mons
28-12-17, 00:14
Yet ...
it does make little sense that Portugal has the Highest M269 without P312 or DF27...
and if TMRC for DF27 as stated in the study is practically the same as its son Z195 and Portugal has "no" Z195, unlike the rest of iberia... it makes a strange migration pattern from East to West, does it not?

I1a3_Young
03-01-18, 05:16
Why does the M147 branch increase percentage in Lincolnshire?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

cynthiag
20-02-18, 20:48
I see nothing in Angela's graphic about the ZZ12_1 branch of DF27, only the Z195 branch and its sub-branches. Is that because there is little known about ZZ12_1?

Thanks

razyn
30-03-18, 13:09
I see nothing in Angela's graphic about the ZZ12_1 branch of DF27, only the Z195 branch and its sub-branches. Is that because there is little known about ZZ12_1?

Thanks

Angela's graphic is from the paper cited in the first post. That paper used a 2012 version of the ISOGG tree. In 2012 DF27 itself was newly identified, and ZZ12 was yet to be discovered (although many Z195- SNPs were known downstream of DF27).

JuanDT
27-06-19, 13:53
Hello All,

I am brand new to this forum, and need help from those of you who are more experienced.

I recently completed testing and found that I am Y-DNA haplogroup RP312 DF27. I want to delve deeper and believe it does go much deeper, through better testing. But what more can I expect to find? How deep can one go?

Thank you in advance.

Juan

JuanDT
19-07-19, 09:05
Hey All,

Can someone help me understand the major subclades of of DF27, please? I still have to complete deeper testing (it is a nightmare to do this from South Africa due to government regulations!!), and I am in the meantime trying to study and understand the overall structure of DF27.

From secondary research I understand (and I state this qualified since I am very new to this field) that DF27 originated in what is today North-Eastern Spain and South-Western France. So, at a macro level DF27 originated from Celtic tribes near today's Spain (Gallaeci/Galli/Celtiberi) and France (Pyrinees Aquitaine Gauls).

My ancestors fled France (Lille) in the late 1600's as protestants - took a ship to South Africa - where I live today. What I know about my forebears end in the 1690's - the rest is just speculation - and will probably stay that way.

Obviously what is of immense interest to me is the fact that my MtDNA is U5b2b3, which I also believe originates from Iberia. And....my mother and father shares the same surname....don't judge guys ;-)

In my simplified universe I am piecing together that both my paternal and maternal line haplogroups originated in today's Spain/France.

My maternal line seems has been living in Europe for a very long time, and paternal line moved recently (circa 4500 years ago) as Celts from Northern Europe to the South West of Europe where the DF27 mutation originated.

So much to understand!!!

Thanks so much in advance.

J

Duarte
29-10-19, 18:06
Big Y 700 complete. FTDNA's results displayed today:

R1b > M269 > L23 > L51 > P310 > L151 > P312 > DF27 > ZZ12 > ZZ19 > Z31644 > BY2285 > BY25634 > FGC35133

https://i.imgur.com/zc8cPsp.png

https://i.imgur.com/NweFjJS.png

https://i.imgur.com/pUsYfwL.png

https://i.imgur.com/HjDbPXt.png

https://i.imgur.com/EX4vDXj.png

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39160-aDNA-does-not-indicate-Native-American-ethnicities-but-mtDNA-is-B2

Interesting. It looks like I'm a unique case in the R1b-DF27 "Y"subclade and the FTDNA Project DF27 admins will create a new subclade below the FGC35133 that will include me and also include a man from Spain (this new subclade will be the R1b-Y54249):

https://i.imgur.com/rMCIH0L.png


Interesting also that my terminal mtDNA sequenced and confirmed (not predicted, but confirmed) by FTDNA (mtDNA Full Sequence) is B2, the same rating I received on the Y-Full mitochondrial Haplotree (about 17,000 ybp). Neither FTDNA nor Y-Full getting to put me in an existing mitochondrial subclade below B2. In this case my terminal mitochondrial haplogroup is the same as the founding populations of America that were in Asia and also in a glacial refuge in Beringia (between Siberia and Alaska):

https://i.imgur.com/Icr0wxe.png

https://i.imgur.com/J2NGykj.png

When it comes of the sequencing of the haplogroups "Y" and "mt", I'm a very special case. LOL. :)

Carlos
29-10-19, 21:37
^^

Congratulations!!! I could finally find out that I had received it, they must be working hard on it. I'm alone with a hollander.

Duarte
30-10-19, 00:01
^^

Congratulations!!! I could finally find out that I had received it, they must be working hard on it. I'm alone with a hollander.

^^ Thank you very much dear friend Carlos. We are both alone with a strange man in a “block” of the “Y” haplotree. LOL. At least the guy that stay with me speaks Spanish and I understand and speak Spanish. The guy that stay with you speaks Dutch. I don't know if this would be a problem to you, but I would have a hard time communicating in Dutch if he doesn't speak anything of English. LOL. I hope they will continue to work hard to get our haplotree position as accurate as possible. A big hug dear Carlos. :)


Enviado do meu iPhone usando Tapatalk

Carlos
30-10-19, 00:46
^^ Thank you very much dear friend Carlos. We are both alone with a strange man in a “block” of the “Y” haplotree. LOL. At least the guy that stay with me speaks Spanish and I understand and speak Spanish. The guy that stay with you speaks Dutch. I don't know if this would be a problem to you, but I would have a hard time communicating in Dutch if he doesn't speak anything of English. LOL. I hope they will continue to work hard to get our haplotree position as accurate as possible. A big hug dear Carlos. :)


Enviado do meu iPhone usando Tapatalk

I don't know who it can be, I don't even know his name. We travel in the same car, it's just him and me. He wears a hat that covers his face, he still hasn't raised his head since I entered the car, I only see the reflection of my face in the glass when we pass through a tunnel. The train has not stopped at any station, just then I realize that I do not know the destination of that trip, then the Dutchman raises his head and I can see his face under the wide-brimmed hat, then the train enters another tunnel .

Duarte
30-10-19, 00:54
I don't know who it can be, I don't even know his name. We travel in the same car, it's just him and me. He wears a hat that covers his face, he still hasn't raised his head since I entered the car, I only see the reflection of my face in the glass when we pass through a tunnel. The train has not stopped at any station, just then I realize that I do not know the destination of that trip, then the Dutchman raises his head and I can see his face under the wide-brimmed hat, then the train enters another tunnel .


You are a poet. Beautiful and well crafted words. Congratulations. Your words refer me to a magnificent images of an European art film. :)



Enviado do meu iPhone usando Tapatalk

Carlos
30-10-19, 01:02
You are a poet. Beautiful and well crafted words. Congratulations. Your words refer me to a magnificent images of an European art film. :)

Enviado do meu iPhone usando Tapatalk


Thank you. In this ruthless world, romanticism should be recovered; although we live trapped in these last centuries that must be the most tasteless in the history of mankind because having everything goes away time and life without having done enough. Look how the world is hating each other, conflicts everywhere, it seems that they do not direct us humans.


In another order of things, what have you found out about your new nomenclature?

Duarte
30-10-19, 01:13
Thank you. In this ruthless world, romanticism should be recovered; although we live trapped in these last centuries that must be the most tasteless in the history of mankind because having everything goes away time and life without having done enough. Look how the world is hating each other, conflicts everywhere, it seems that they do not direct us humans.


In another order of things, what have you found out about your new nomenclature?

I still don't know much. My data is still being processed on Y-Full. For now Y-Full has provisionally provided me (I received an email now) with a subclade identical to that of FTDNA. I'll wait for the processing to finish to know who will be with me on Y-Full “Y” Haplotree and what will be the definitive nomeclature of my subclade there.



Enviado do meu iPhone usando Tapatalk

Duarte
27-12-19, 16:02
In both, Big Y and Yfull, I form a terminal clade of haplogroup R1b-DF27 with a Cordoba Spanish: R-FGC35133.


According to a message sent by the FTDNA Project Administrator DF27, in a few days he would reposition me, putting us together in a new subclade: R-Y54249. See message below:


"Duarte,

Project R DF27 and Subclades. R1b-DF27 Subclades Project: DF27+ ZZ12+ Z195+ Z198+ Z209+

Congrats on the new results. I've taken a quick peek at your private mutations and one of the males who was already on the FGC35133 branch. You and he match with at least one private mutation, meaning that you and he will form a NEW downstream branch:

BY25634>FGC35133>Y54249

(I will get you moved in the next few days)

This male is only sitting at Y500 and would likely share some more private mutations with you found in the new Y700 region. In fact, you appear to be the ONLY male in this entire branch of the DF27 tree with new Y700 results compared to the older version."


However, this has not been done to date by the FTDNA, but Yfull has already advanced the FTDNA and has grouped us into a new subclade containing the SNP FGC35133: R-Y45921 (Y45921 * Y53021 * Y54249 Y55210 * Y56488 * Y111390 * FGC35133).


It is a young clade, that appears to have emerged at 680 BCE (TMRCA 2700 ybp)


Below are illustrative images:

https://i.imgur.com/HjDbPXt.png
https://i.imgur.com/HIW9k1e.png?2
https://i.imgur.com/2vtF1HL.png?1
https://i.imgur.com/67GNrAk.png?1
https://i.imgur.com/cr2TR73.png?1

frank56
13-03-20, 17:25
Hello I have not posted on this site in awhile my apologies! I am R1b1a1a2a1a2 R-P312 subclade of R-M269. My question is if Z195 which I have tested positive for is a subclade of DF27, but it does not show on my FTDNA as being tested for how can you have a subclade of something that is not there??? I have tested negative for DF103, DF110, DF17, DF19, DF21, DF41, DF49, DF63, DF81, DF88, DF95, and DF99. It looks like I skipped DF27 and went right to Z195> SRY2627 (M167). I read an article published in Aug 2017 that says that Z195 seem to have appeared simultaneously within DF27. Confused a need a better understanding of how all this ties together. Thanks

Duarte
13-03-20, 19:05
Hello I have not posted on this site in awhile my apologies! I am R1b1a1a2a1a2 R-P312 subclade of R-M269. My question is if Z195 which I have tested positive for is a subclade of DF27, but it does not show on my FTDNA as being tested for how can you have a subclade of something that is not there??? I have tested negative for DF103, DF110, DF17, DF19, DF21, DF41, DF49, DF63, DF81, DF88, DF95, and DF99. It looks like I skipped DF27 and went right to Z195> SRY2627 (M167). I read an article published in Aug 2017 that says that Z195 seem to have appeared simultaneously within DF27. Confused a need a better understanding of how all this ties together. Thanks

Hello Frank,

I don't know if you did the FTDNA yDNA Big Y 700 test or if you did the tests in separate packages to test each SNP individually. If you did the Big Y 700, and the SNP DF27 has not been tested, it is because they assumed that you are DF27 +, since the test was positive for the SNPs Z195+ and M167+, that is downstream of DF27 +. Remember that the results of the Big Y 700 are time consuming because before the results are released, they are rigorously analyzed by a team of genealogists. Only the SNP detection process is automated. The rest is done manually by a team of genealogists. I suggest that you join the FTDNA Project R-DF27 and Subclades and direct this question to the Project Administrator, Lucas McCaw, who is very diligent and respectful: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r1b-df27/activity-feed

https://i.imgur.com/jXssLJr.png

Cheers :)

Duarte
18-07-20, 02:54
I think FTDNA surname projects are really cool. But for me, unfortunately, it doesn't work very well. These are some of my matches with distance 0 (zero).

https://i.imgur.com/ZChDFUm.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/G7LpuTu.png
https://i.imgur.com/nAF1OGS.png
https://i.imgur.com/57uzgla.png

My True Ancestry R-DF27 Royal matches

https://i.imgur.com/beaOYVx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/xcErXb0.jpg

celtiberian-II
28-10-20, 19:15
In that 2017 nature article entitled "Analysis of the R1b-DF27 haplogroup shows that a large fraction of IberianY-chromosome lineages originated recently in situ", the authors affirm that NE Iberia is the most likely place of origin of DF27 but perhaps new studies have updated this result. Can you clarify this question? Thank you.