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View Full Version : Is the country of Spain headed for a second civil war in the future?



Redmayne
16-09-17, 13:26
I was thinking to myself about all the division going on in Spain and Iberian peninsula; and how their economy is stagnating; and the country seems to be undergoing a small civil unrest.

The Spanish keep arguing and warning the British about Gibraltar; and how they would like it to be handed back to Spain. Gibraltar was the British colony in Europe that voted to stay in the EU.

Knowing the British, it would be smart of them to help Portugal, Catalonia and the Basque country. So this is where Spain could be vulnerable? I do believe that the British would definitely back all of the potential break-away states. (Catalonia, Basque country and Galicia) as well as the country of Portugal.

Is the country of Spain headed for a second civil war in the future? Think about it - this is an issue that has gone on for a while. (about a decade at least - when Catalonia announced they wanted an independence referendum.)

Spain is mostly dependent on Catalonia and Andalusia, it's two richest regions with the best economic background and the highest growing. Madrid is only in the 3rd.

I would imagine that Andalusians would stick with Spain if a war broke out - but here is the thing - if Britain funds Portugal - Portugal could easily snag Galicia and even Andalusia. Andalusia would be a good add for the Portuguese economy. (dog-eat-dog world.)

I'd imagine Andalusians would be but an army of Portuguese and especially British people fighting Spain and Andalusia, Andalusia could easily be defeated and claimed by either Portugal or Britain; if Andalusians are forced to surrender. This would leave Spain (or Madrid) absolutely devastated. And Portugal would now have the upper hand in Iberia, instead.

Salento
18-09-17, 02:25
The Americans, are also a factor in the hypothetical scenario, as example the Base Navale di Rota, near Cadice in Andalusia, is fully funded by the US, and has a large American Military presence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Station_Rota,_Spain

AdeoF
18-09-17, 02:31
I don't think that would ever happen, nobody wants to kill each other to be honest and also it would destroy most/all of Iberia

Redmayne
18-09-17, 04:16
I don't think that would ever happen, nobody wants to kill each other to be honest and also it would destroy most/all of IberiaKnowing Spain - they are very aggressive when it comes to these certain matters. You might want to think twice. The Spanish (at least people in Castile) are very nationalistic. The government is nationalistic, etcetera. But Spain has always been aggressive to the British, Portuguese and Basques. And now they are holding a new quarrel with Catalonia lately.

They (Spanish) have even tried to conspire with Argentina (a former Spanish state) to try and take over a British crown colony in South America. For instance, Argentina and Britain have always fought over the Falkland Islands. I have heard that the government of Spain has applauded (and even perhaps, funded in secret) for Argentina to try and take over it. Remember in history; the Spanish have always been an aggressive people and were ruthless and usually stopped at nothing to further Spain and their Empire. So while I could understand your view as an English European, AdeoF; (as I know a lot of Europeans want peace and no more wars.) you must consider the facts of what Spain has done in the past. (atrocities that a lot of people around-the-world resent them for ~ Especially Amerindians.)

Portugal and Spain are renowned for their almost 500-year-long rivalry. So I can definitely see something (very bad) happening in the future - that it seems others overlook. It may not be as bad as Yugoslavia. (if there is a civil war; it could be a lot more peaceful - or even as peaceful as Czechoslovakia breaking up - maybe no war or casualties at all.)

I am thinking the solution to this problem is that Spain has to make better accommodations for it's neighbors. Especially their rivals - the Portuguese. There has always been a debate whether Portugal will become part of Spain. But to me, the Portuguese would see it as a form of defeat. So I think the Portuguese would fight to the death in order to remain independent. You're naive, my friend.

(Portuguese may be on good-terms with Spain right now - but they are a very proud people - and that trust of Spain could quickly and easily turn into hostility, fast. Like, holding a grudge. If you were to ask the Portuguese if they would (or should) rather be annexed to Spain; you may get a sarcastic response - and might even get a punch in the face. They are very friendly people, but to them - submitting to Spain would be like a father who doesn't approve of his daughter marrying an undesirable boyfriend. For Portugal, it would be very demeaning to them to become Spanish. Portuguese people can be your best friends - but you would lose their friendship fast if you suggested Portugal becomes Spanish. Though Portuguese seem like a very peaceful people - they are still uptight with Spanish nationalism. It is very similar to getting a Polish person angry by calling them Russian, etc. For instance. Only difference is, Portugal and Spain have love-hate relationships with each other.)

And personally; I know a few white Americans who have Spanish ancestry right from Spain. (Spanish colonist) and they have Amerindian friends ~ and usually never tell the Native Americans that they have Spanish. They will usually not admit it, and say something else. (scared to offend their Native American friends, I guess.)


(I also know a few Jews who usually keep their ancestry of being Jewish a secret around certain friends, too. Because likewise - like the Spanish in history; Jews are often accused and known for being disliked/having a bad reputation.)

I'm an old man, that's how I know all this info. haha.

Redmayne
18-09-17, 04:30
Also - the British are not Iberians. I wanted to add. But if they intervened with Spain - and even a civil war - they would definitely help Portugal. Portugal would have the upper hand in this scenario - if there was ever a civil war in the Iberian peninsula.

Britain and Portugal alone would be enough to sack Spain - and that doesn't sound too good. (Especially in terms of economy and fighting over resources.) It could easily see Catalonia breaking-away. Then Basque country. Then (a few months later) Galicia would get away. (due to a weakened Spain.) Portugal could easily take Galicia once Galicia becomes it's own nation. Both have a similar culture.

I would think that the Portuguese would definitely want to snag Andalusia as well. Even though Andalusia is more loyal to Spain; war with Britain and Portugal verses Spain might have to make Andalusia give-up, fast - Only to become an independent nation, or either claimed by both Portugal or Great Britain.


An Alternative would be that Spain collects Portugal in the future. And there is no war, after all. (Who knows how long that will be?) But I do not see Spain ever collecting Gibraltar from Britain; anytime soon.

Ziober
18-09-17, 16:38
I think Badajoz itself could easily conquest Britain in 2 or 3 weeks.

Ziober
18-09-17, 21:51
I was thinking to myself about all the division going on in Spain and Iberian peninsula; and how their economy is stagnating; and the country seems to be undergoing a small civil unrest.

The Spanish keep arguing and warning the British about Gibraltar; and how they would like it to be handed back to Spain. Gibraltar was the British colony in Europe that voted to stay in the EU.

Knowing the British, it would be smart of them to help Portugal, Catalonia and the Basque country. So this is where Spain could be vulnerable? I do believe that the British would definitely back all of the potential break-away states. (Catalonia, Basque country and Galicia) as well as the country of Portugal.

Is the country of Spain headed for a second civil war in the future? Think about it - this is an issue that has gone on for a while. (about a decade at least - when Catalonia announced they wanted an independence referendum.)

Spain is mostly dependent on Catalonia and Andalusia, it's two richest regions with the best economic background and the highest growing. Madrid is only in the 3rd.

I would imagine that Andalusians would stick with Spain if a war broke out - but here is the thing - if Britain funds Portugal - Portugal could easily snag Galicia and even Andalusia. Andalusia would be a good add for the Portuguese economy. (dog-eat-dog world.)

I'd imagine Andalusians would be but an army of Portuguese and especially British people fighting Spain and Andalusia, Andalusia could easily be defeated and claimed by either Portugal or Britain; if Andalusians are forced to surrender. This would leave Spain (or Madrid) absolutely devastated. And Portugal would now have the upper hand in Iberia, instead.

How old are you Redmayne? These thoughts seem to came from a 9 yo boy mind

Redmayne
25-09-17, 14:04
How old are you Redmayne? These thoughts seem to came from a 9 yo boy mindThat passive-aggressive comment just proved my point. You hate to hear the truth. Spain is going to go like Yugoslavia in the future. Especially if Britain backs Portugal and Catalonia. You are so naive. Remember the first civil war?

You assume that I want to see Spain go? No, these are actually very scary times.

Redmayne
25-09-17, 14:12
Take some time to think. Maybe it isn't as crazy as you think I am. I can definitely see Spain entering a second civil war. Especially since Britain has the upper hand. The Portuguese would fight to the death to snag some runaway territories from Spain. It would enrich Portugal's economy even more. Leaving Spain hung out to dry.

Redmayne
25-09-17, 14:15
I can just see the newsflashes and articles about me, now. (unwanted attention)


"Spanish civil war was warned and predicted by American user on obscure European Internet forum; but no one listened."

LeBrok
25-09-17, 17:23
There will be no war. There is no appetite for war. Nobody wants a war. Seems like your brain is stuck in old world reasoning. You could predict Myanmar ethnic cleansing or Putin's attacks on neighbors to make Russia great again, but not in democratic and tolerant societies. Having said that, there is still likelihood of civil war but it is very miniscale, only if two Trump like "macho men" are at the whelm.

AdeoF
25-09-17, 19:41
Even if Spain does get quite aggressive with both the UK and Portugal, i just can't see a war coming out of it. The EU would do something about and also other neighbors around Spain to prevent something like that. Yes Spain has it Pain which won't heal, even by today (Catalonia). But still it's not worth anything for something that crazy to happen or even to send the army

I am Spanish/Galician btw i just live in good old London so i can understand both nations. I also know quite a few Portuguese people and we just banter about each other not hate

Redmayne
26-09-17, 12:08
There will be no war. There is no appetite for war. Nobody wants a war. Seems like your brain is stuck in old world reasoning. You could predict Myanmar ethnic cleansing or Putin's attacks on neighbors to make Russia great again, but not in democratic and tolerant societies. Having said that, there is still likelihood of civil war but it is very miniscale, only if two Trump like "macho men" are at the whelm.Okay. I see your point, there, LeBrok. Maybe there will be no war. Still, Spain are a very aggressive government. They are very arrogant when it comes to their nationalism and keeping things in check. It would be pretty naive of you (and others) not to think that they would even quarrel with the British. (even over something as small as Gibraltar). Spanish government have always been ruthless and arrogant - even to the point where I could call them "bone-headed" or "hard-headed". They often like to never admit that they are wrong - something I have noticed about the Spanish. They will argue with you until they have the last word - it does not matter if they are wrong. Interesting observation/analysis, don't you think?

The Spanish have always had cultural megalomania; (we're Spanish; we're tough-guys and better than you) similar to Fascism. It's something that has been ingrained into their culture since the reconquest.

And as I stated before; the Spanish like to never admit they are wrong - even if they are. They want to get into your head and prove that you are wrong. They like you to know this, too. Spanish government love to show off that they are stubborn. I think it is their passive-aggressive way of showing dominance. (Spanish government: Doesn't matter if we're wrong; we will always be here and we will always have the last laugh.)

Redmayne
26-09-17, 12:20
There will be no war. There is no appetite for war. Nobody wants a war. Seems like your brain is stuck in old world reasoning. You could predict Myanmar ethnic cleansing or Putin's attacks on neighbors to make Russia great again, but not in democratic and tolerant societies. Having said that, there is still likelihood of civil war but it is very miniscale, only if two Trump like "macho men" are at the whelm.I have noticed that the Polish are kind of similar to this Spanish government mentality. It's almost kind of like a Fascist thing. They do anything and everything they can to try to belittle you. I don't think the Polish would have done what the Spanish did during the colonist era, though. Spanish people were the most ruthless SOB's back then. Believe it. They were the ones who pushed Christianity on Amerindians the most. (The Spanish have a history of attempting to destroy/genocide or assimilate people they don't like. From the Moors, Jews, Guanches and Amerindians. etc. Nobody seems to notice this - and only points out Nazi Germany, for some odd.)

Very ruthless people. I think Spain have kind of calmed down in the 21st century though. But they are a very passive-aggressive government. It seems they love to be flattered and admired, too. Just my observations. The Spanish seem to love it when you hold them in high regard. They have that traditional "domination at all costs" mentality. "We're only happy and peaceful with you; but only if we are in power." Have you noticed it, too?

(On the side: They are STILL begging Britain for Gibraltar.)

Redmayne
26-09-17, 12:29
How old are you Redmayne? These thoughts seem to came from a 9 yo boy mindDo not get me wrong. I actually admire Spain a lot. But there was a time when they were seen as big enemies to the West and world peace than say, Russia is today.

This is the problem - Spain's arrogance and pride might lead to their downfall. They are not the big monolithic Empire they once were. Their government is delusional and megalomaniacal. I could definitely see them striking British Gibraltar; even if the Spanish citizens don't agree to it. (Like I said before, Spain has that mentality of invincibility or megalomania. They cannot process that they are incorrect. For them, they always have to be right.)

They may be on good terms with the UK, Israel and the United States. And other Western nations, sure. Even the European Union. But all that could change overnight. The Spanish are very proud and arrogant people. But the problem most people overlook is the mentality that Spain and the Spanish government have always held. There was a time when even they (Spain) were more ruthless than Russia.

The Spanish could be so stubborn that their stubbornness will lead to their own clumsy fall/demise. (And before you accuse me of being a Basque sympathizer; no I am not. Or even a Catalonian or Portuguese fanguy. It's just what I noticed about Spain. Friendly people but passive-aggressive and hard-headed government.)

LeBrok
26-09-17, 16:34
I have noticed that the Polish are kind of similar to this Spanish government mentality. It's almost kind of like a Fascist thing. They do anything and everything they can to try to belittle you. I don't think the Polish would have done what the Spanish did during the colonist era, though. Spanish people were the most ruthless SOB's back then. Believe it. They were the ones who pushed Christianity on Amerindians the most. (The Spanish have a history of attempting to destroy/genocide or assimilate people they don't like. From the Moors, Jews, Guanches and Amerindians. etc. Nobody seems to notice this - and only points out Nazi Germany, for some odd.) How do Polish fit into this discussion about Spain, and what are your examples from Polish history to base opinion on?


Very ruthless people. I think Spain have kind of calmed down in the 21st century though. But they are a very passive-aggressive government. It seems they love to be flattered and admired, too. Just my observations. The Spanish seem to love it when you hold them in high regard. They have that traditional "domination at all costs" mentality. "We're only happy and peaceful with you; but only if we are in power." Have you noticed it, too?
As I said, it has sense in frame of old type of mindset, but not in today's. That's why you are wrong.

I have a feeling that you are a disgruntled member of Eupedia coming back with new account to steer some shit around. Am I right?

Angela
26-09-17, 20:15
@Redmayne,

What we don't need more of is vast generalizations about different nationalities.

As for the "ruthless" behavior of colonizers, ask the Afrikaners about the English in South Africa, or ask the Irish about the English in Ireland, or the Africans in the German colonies in Africa, who had the worst reputation of all. Or how about the Belgians in the Congo? Let's not forget the Native Americans at the hands of the British settlers either. If you're going to go all the way back in history for examples, look at the Romans in Gaul. How about the Huns? Some men are thrilled to think they might be descended from men from the steppes who slaughtered all the local European men. Shall I go on?

"Colonizers" were ruthless, people in power were and are ruthless, or people trying to get power. Look at the Hutu/Tutsi conflict. Look at what the Mao regime and the Russian Communists did to their own people.

I find all this selective outrage dishonest. Stop trying to score points against Spaniards.

Redmayne
27-09-17, 12:36
It's not generalization. All of it is just the philosophy of human nature. Why so many questions, attacks and defensiveness? There's no need for that. And personally, there is actually a Spanish acquaintance of mine who dislikes the Polish and Hungarians and accuses them of being racist and Fascist.

But none of you seemed to answer the other outcome/scenario to this problem: would it be better if Portugal became part of Spain? (I mean, annexed.) Or am I actually wrong about the human nature of Spain and other human beings? Is my judgement actually wrong? I thought most people here would have agreed. I am sorry, I did not mean to demonize Spain this way.

Redmayne
27-09-17, 12:44
How do Polish fit into this discussion about Spain, and what are your examples from Polish history to base opinion on?

As I said, it has sense in frame of old type of mindset, but not in today's. That's why you are wrong.

I have a feeling that you are a disgruntled member of Eupedia coming back with new account to steer some shit around. Am I right?How am I wrong? If you want honest opinions, go ask an Native American what they think of Spain. Or a Basque citizen. Or a Portuguese. Likewise, most the time, you wouldn't get very positive responses.

And actually, Poland and Spain are very similar. Spain is more reluctant than other Western Europeans to accept Muslim immigrants. While Poland continues to shun them. (But, I hear Brussels are working on that. Trying to bring Polish to a state of tolerance )

Redmayne
27-09-17, 12:54
As for the "ruthless" behavior of colonizers, ask the Afrikaners about the English in South Africa, or ask the Irish about the English in Ireland, or the Africans in the German colonies in Africa, who had the worst reputation of all. Or how about the Belgians in the Congo? Let's not forget the Native Americans at the hands of the British settlers either. If you're going to go all the way back in history for examples, look at the Romans in Gaul. How about the Huns? Some men are thrilled to think they might be descended from men from the steppes who slaughtered all the local European men. Shall I go on? Sorry, I don't know what to say? I don't understand?

And what about Russia? You can't tell me that they haven't done as bad as Spain? For example? One part of North America (and California) was owned by Russian colonists at one point. And both the Spanish, Amerindians and Russians fought over it. So I don't understand your argument?

LeBrok
27-09-17, 16:31
Sorry, I don't know what to say? I don't understand?

And what about Russia? You can't tell me that they haven't done as bad as Spain? For example? One part of North America (and California) was owned by Russian colonists at one point. And both the Spanish, Amerindians and Russians fought over it. So I don't understand your argument?
I think you are Anthon the Bear, right? The Putin's propaganda machine on Eupedia

Redmayne
27-09-17, 16:48
I don't know what that is. anthon the bear. I did a google search, got nothing.

LeBrok
27-09-17, 18:26
I don't know what that is. anthon the bear. I did a google search, got nothing.What was your previous account name on Eupedia?

Redmayne
27-09-17, 18:32
Huh? No, this is the first.

What do you think of my comments?

Ziober
01-10-17, 20:12
I won't play your game Redmayne

Ziober
01-10-17, 20:21
That passive-aggressive comment just proved my point. You hate to hear the truth. Spain is going to go like Yugoslavia in the future. Especially if Britain backs Portugal and Catalonia. You are so naive. Remember the first civil war?

You assume that I want to see Spain go? No, these are actually very scary times.

Your first post was very passive-aggressive comment for millions people and I was very soft telling you

ROS
02-10-17, 22:16
@Redmayne,

What we don't need more of is vast generalizations about different nationalities.

As for the "ruthless" behavior of colonizers, ask the Afrikaners about the English in South Africa, or ask the Irish about the English in Ireland, or the Africans in the German colonies in Africa, who had the worst reputation of all. Or how about the Belgians in the Congo? Let's not forget the Native Americans at the hands of the British settlers either. If you're going to go all the way back in history for examples, look at the Romans in Gaul. How about the Huns? Some men are thrilled to think they might be descended from men from the steppes who slaughtered all the local European men. Shall I go on?

"Colonizers" were ruthless, people in power were and are ruthless, or people trying to get power. Look at the Hutu/Tutsi conflict. Look at what the Mao regime and the Russian Communists did to their own people.

I find all this selective outrage dishonest. Stop trying to score points against Spaniards.

Truly lucida, which is not very common in these times, you have the lucidity of classical culture.

I do not think that there will be a second civil war in Spain, I do not think that this slaughter between brothers will happen again with the very important participation of foreign powers.Of course after the civil war came the Second World War, hopefully this will not be repeated again neither the civil nor the world.

Already once we had enough

On the other hand it would be absurd to mount a civil war in Spain for a struggle that basically consisted in that if the Catalan bourgeoisie pays more or less taxes, if it is more or less solidary with the rest of Spain, I repeat serious of *******.Now the Catalans are as Spanish as the Murcian, Historically, Genetically, Culturally, Atropologically, Politically, etc., their closest relatives are the rest of Spain, a nation in which they have always participated very actively in history and they they know, but of course they are getting carried away by the temporality that they believe superior to the rest of Spain, and surely economically they are, but of course the economy, today you are up tomorrow, it is much more important than the economy to defend an identity of the South of Europe, European Mediterranean that in the long term will allow us a better quality of life in our own home, without already entering the lost for the rest of the Spanish of that culture and Mediterranean art that provides Catalonia, so it would be very sad that Catalonia was independent of Spain.

Redmayne
11-10-17, 04:59
I haven't seen this post in a while. Sorry, I want to inform everyone that I was ill. Anyway, it seems that Catalonia won an independence referendum; but Spain has yet to recognize it and probably will not.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41574172

I am sorry for my earlier posts. I did not mean to come off aggressively. It was actually just a warning post. Maybe people are a lot more refined these days and civil war is seen as actually not a solution to the problem. Still, it makes you wonder - the tensions between Madrid and Catalonian independence - it almost seems like aggression and tension is flying. It almost seems like it's possible that there is bad-blood flying. So if you take it, at least from my perspective - I do believe that a civil war could arise. What this article will show - is that Catalonia will stop at nothing for their referendum of independence to be taken seriously. They haven't done anything yet, but if they start becoming aggressive enough to have terrorist attacks against Madrid - sort of like the Basques - I could easily see a civil war coming. Remember, this is an ongoing feud and passive-aggressive tension that has begone in Spain vs. Catalonia for almost a decade.

Catalonians are extremely separatist - and they've been at it with this aggressive leavening of Spain. They will not be stopped easily; and I have a feeling that tensions are flaring. Madrid will get bored of it eventually. Also one thing to remember - Spain has almost no allies. Even the Portuguese and Britains would not try to help Spain, had Spain undergone a civil unrest. Britain would be more attentive to their own Iberian needs; and would definitely help a country like Portugal over Spain. So in a case of civil war, Spain has no allies and is left hung out to dry. Both economically and militarily. It is very vulnerable to a civil war - what some people do not seem to notice. (You will not hear this about countries like Italy or even smaller ones like Poland, Czech Republic or Slovakia, etc.) Spain has always been a country with "holes" in it.

When I talk about "holes" I talk about the vulnerabilities. Such as what is seen in the break-up of Yugoslavia. It was due to jealousy, poor economy, multiple religions, and a poor structure. When there was no leader like Tito to keep everything in balance; the country eventually lost it's glew and fell apart.

Redmayne
11-10-17, 05:15
To be honest with you all. I do not see Spain existing in 1-15 years from now.

Ever since Spain hit the 2000's; it has been going steadily downhill. The region of Galicia hasn't been having many kids - and has actually the lowest birthrate in all of Europe. It could go from 2.7 million to less than half at 1.3 million.

Redmayne
25-10-17, 02:20
Haha! He is not me Lebrok, yesterday arrived to check what's new here. Glad you still remember me :grin:Oh, is he talking about an actual member?

Redmayne
25-10-17, 02:23
On topic: a lot of people are surmising that a civil war is brewing. Even a Portuguese acquaintance of mine says he could see something bad happening by the beginning of November.

AdeoF
25-10-17, 02:41
To be honest with you all. I do not see Spain existing in 1-15 years from now.

Ever since Spain hit the 2000's; it has been going steadily downhill. The region of Galicia hasn't been having many kids - and has actually the lowest birthrate in all of Europe. It could go from 2.7 million to less than half at 1.3 million.

Not really but there would be a lot of Old people in Galicia just like Japan. Yes the birthrate is low but it's not going to kill anyone off

Sile
25-10-17, 02:46
On topic: a lot of people are surmising that a civil war is brewing. Even a Portuguese acquaintance of mine says he could see something bad happening by the beginning of November.

looks like a repeat of the castialians throwing their weight around.........might end up like the butchering of the catalans by the castilians same as General franco times

LABERIA
25-10-17, 15:15
Iberian Peninsula is like Balkan Peninsula. Ten languages are spoken in Iberia, two in Portugal, seven in Spain and one in Gibraltar. It's really a complicated situation. Let's wait for the decision of Senate(the majority is from the party of Rajoy, so there is no really hope that something will change) on Friday.

LABERIA
25-10-17, 15:25
looks like a repeat of the castialians throwing their weight around.........might end up like the butchering of the catalans by the castilians same as General franco times
Around two weeks ago, Pablo Casado, spokesman for the Spanish ruling party, the PP, has said this:

"Let's hope that nothing is declared tomorrow because perhaps the person who makes the decalartion will end up like the person who made the declaration 83 years ago."
The person he is talking about is Lluis Companys, head of the Catalonia region who was shot by firing squad in 1940.

All these efforts were useless and Companys was executed at Montjuïc Castle[14] in Barcelona at 6:30 a.m. on October 15, 1940. Refusing to wear a blindfold, he was taken before a firing squad of Civil Guards barefoot and, as they fired, he cried 'Per Catalunya!' (For Catalonia!).[2] He is buried at the Montjuïc Cemetery, near the castle. The cause of death was given as 'traumatic internal haemorrhage'.[15]
In the link is a video of Casado actually saying the words, so it's not fake news.
Spanish Government Issues Veiled Death Threat To Catalan Leader | Zero Hedge
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-09/spanish-government-issues-veiled-death-threat-catalan-leader