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Alarich
17-09-17, 13:09
Hello, how is it possible that haplogroup I1 is found in Romanies people ( Gypsies)? It is the second largerst haplogroup of European Romani people, but I don't know how much percentages there is.

Promenade
17-09-17, 18:27
It is the second largerst haplogroup of European Romani people

Can you share the source or study where you found this?

spruithean
17-09-17, 20:26
Can you share the source or study where you found this?

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#Gypsy at the end of this paragraph.


Hello, how is it possible that haplogroup I1 is found in Romanies people ( Gypsies)? It is the second largerst haplogroup of European Romani people, but I don't know how much percentages there is.

It can be found in Romani people likely because of intermarriage between non-Romani and Romani communities.

Promenade
17-09-17, 21:56
Okay so this is the source https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1235543/pdf/AJHGv69p1314.pdf, a study by Underhill from 2001

I'm guessing "VI-52" was the archaic name for I1 once upon a time?(Or maybe it was just VI-52A)

The study says VI-52 makes up the y-dna for 22 percent of the Roma population tested in the study(closer to 12 or 13 percent if it's just VI-52A). Of the 252 Roma men tested 57 were found to have VI-52. 52 of these 57 with VI-52 were from Bulgaria, but of the 295 total Roma in this study only 47 were from outside Bulgaria to begin with.

As for Roma in Bulgaria it seems they have a lot more I1 than the native population if VI-52 is I1 or even VI-52A is. I'd guess the same is true for Romanian Roma as well since many of the Bulgarian Roma claim ancestry from Wallachia.

I1a3_Young
18-09-17, 02:30
22% would be even higher than Germany.

Sent from my XT1080 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Promenade
18-09-17, 08:00
22% would be even higher than Germany.

Sent from my XT1080 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

I think it's more likely that VI-52A is I1 and VI-52B is I2, so the amount of I1 is closer to 12 or 13 percent. Regardless that is a much higher percentage of I1 than ethnic Romanians or Bulgarians have.

My guess other than just blaming the founder effect? A Transylvanian Saxon got lucky when the Gypsys first entered Romania. Supposedly the Roma first entered Europe around 900 years ago, around the beginning of the height of Saxon settlement in Transylvania.

twójstary
18-09-17, 11:47
Saxon involvement seems spot on. Unless of course, Gypsies are forgotten Nordic people.

Alarich
25-01-18, 20:00
I have found they have subgroup Z141* - P259/M507 which belongs to main linie Z58.

Odoslané z SM-J510FN pomocou Tapatalku

I1a3_Young
27-01-18, 05:15
I have found they have subgroup Z141* - P259/M507 which belongs to main linie Z58.

Odoslané z SM-J510FN pomocou Tapatalku

Thank you. Is that just one kit or many kits within their population?

Zvrk9
04-02-18, 02:52
It would make sense to first assess the situation for Roma people in the neighboring Turkey and Romania where their population is much higher than in Bulgaria.

eastara
06-02-18, 06:43
There is a newer and deeper study about European Roma - "Origins, admixture and founder lineages in European Roma".
https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015201

I have mentioned in another thread one of the founding lineages among them was I1-P259. This SNP was discovered early, but later removed from the tree as private as it was missing in more than 1000 of the older Deep Clade tests on FTDNA. However a Bulgarian Roma adopted in USA was proven by 23andMe to be P259 positive and later sponsored by the I1 project. He turned to be Z58/Z141 , but negative for all known subbranches. Obviously the Roma have split from this branch early during their migration in Europe and P259 was initially a private SNP, and now not found among general European population except with some with suspected Roma connection (I know about a few Serbians and Bulgarians, it is mentioned a Hungarian in the study). This way Roma could not pick up this branch directly from Western Europe, but somewhere on the Balkans where they appeared first around 1300 AD.
In addition to H-M52 and its derivate H-M82 haplogroups, three non-Indian lineages (I-P259, J-M92, and J-M67) were defined as founders (Figure 1 and Supplementary Figure S1). I-P259 is present in all Roma groups (except in Spanish Roma) and absent in our non-Roma populations (with the exception of one Hungarian). The I-P259 network showed a star-like profile with reduced internal diversity (Supplementary Figure S2B). This suggests that the mutation might have appeared in the Roma population very recently and probably once, and spread due to drift.
9717

Zvrk9
10-02-18, 23:55
Good information eastara, thank you.

Litovoi
11-02-18, 13:28
Okay so this is the source https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1235543/pdf/AJHGv69p1314.pdf, a study by Underhill from 2001
I'm guessing "VI-52" was the archaic name for I1 once upon a time?(Or maybe it was just VI-52A)
The study says VI-52 makes up the y-dna for 22 percent of the Roma population tested in the study(closer to 12 or 13 percent if it's just VI-52A). Of the 252 Roma men tested 57 were found to have VI-52. 52 of these 57 with VI-52 were from Bulgaria, but of the 295 total Roma in this study only 47 were from outside Bulgaria to begin with.
As for Roma in Bulgaria it seems they have a lot more I1 than the native population if VI-52 is I1 or even VI-52A is. I'd guess the same is true for Romanian Roma as well since many of the Bulgarian Roma claim ancestry from Wallachia.
Promenade,I think you're just drunk,again.
EDIT:
The Western Wallachian Romani are more of Latin origin,note their remarks,one of them mentions that the present women are substandard,from the countryside*,while another is more practical "they are fainted by the heat":
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=klgU7JtymIA
EDIT
See the Western Wallachian Romani's conservative stance,with all the prideness and natural behavior.
EDIT
I am talking about certain people that have never crossed the boundaries of their county, Vlachianized for centuries by the local lords.
EDIT
There are significant psychological differences between the Wallachian ,Transylvanian, Bulgarian, and Hungarian Romani etc.,all of these clearly not close to the English pikeys, for instance,that unfortunately are not taking into consideration these days,not to mention that the speech is very different.

EDIT

*they were from the countryside too.