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hrvat22
26-09-17, 11:21
Text of co-administrator of the FTDNA E-M35 project.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3toPDBv-MLKc04zdEd6MDJlaTQ/view


Serbian genetic tree for E-V13, source Serbian genetic portal Poreklo


https://postimg.org/image/4qxnhdqsb/


For now is clear that mutation CTS5856 is source of most E1b V-13 types exist in the Montenegrins and Serbs, and probably in Croatias etc..


In this branch is Serbian tribes of Bjelopavlići, Kuči..etc


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjelopavli%C4%87i


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku%C4%8Di


Interestingly, there is a subclade Z17107 in Croatia in the Serbian village, which shows link with Albania and no connection with Herzegovina from where allegedly Serbs come to Dalmatia.

Obviously, a good part of today's Serbs by the male line is Albanian origin.

blevins13
26-09-17, 12:29
Very interesting


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Johane Derite
26-09-17, 15:40
The Albanian Kuci Fis/clan has long been claimed by the Serbian state apparatus to be "Albanianized" slavs. It's an extremely interesting development if they
are highly overrepresented in EV13 as this paper claims. It points to it being the exact opposite of what the Serbian state pushed in their academies.

hrvat22
26-09-17, 16:29
This is a map where are Albanian subclades

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/AlbanianBloodlines?iframe=ymap

This is a map with Dinaric Alps subclades



https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/dinaric-alps-dna/dna-results


E-M35 Project - Family Tree DNA (https://www.google.hr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjzzLvghsPWAhULMZoKHdfDAE8QFggkMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.familytreedna.com%2Fgroups%2 Fe-3b%2Fabout%2Fbackground&usg=AFQjCNHXxPbAT5xFbYVrVDjUaIL9ly5JKA)


https://www.familytreedna.com/public/E3b?iframe=ymap



https://www.familytreedna.com/img/1x1.gif Confirmed Haplogroup: E-BY4457

Subgroup: E-V68>M78>Z1919>L618>V13>CTS5856>Z5017>Z5016>CTS9320>Z17107>Z38456>BY4457>BY4455
This is subclade from Western Dalmatia (Serbian village)

E-BY4457
Subgroup: E-V68>M78>Z1919>L618>V13>CTS5856>Z5017>Z5016>CTS9320>Z17107>Z38456>BY4457>16791741

This is subclade from Albania.

E-Z38456
Subgroup: E-V68>M78>Z1919>L618>V13>CTS5856>Z5017>Z5016>CTS9320>Z17107>Z38456>BY4457

This is subclade from Macedonia.https://www.familytreedna.com/img/1x1.gif

These are same people in the male line, in Croatia the same mutation comes with Vlach groups that later become Serbs.

hrvat22
26-09-17, 17:34
The Albanian Kuci Fis/clan has long been claimed by the Serbian state apparatus to be "Albanianized" slavs. It's an extremely interesting development if they
are highly overrepresented in EV13 as this paper claims. It points to it being the exact opposite of what the Serbian state pushed in their academies.

Serbian historians have claimed that quoted tribes are Serb origin and now we seeing that they have nothing to do with Serbs, they are local Albanians who later became Serbs.

Johane Derite
26-09-17, 18:38
Serbian historians have claimed that quoted tribes are Serb origin and now we seeing that they have nothing to do with Serbs, they are local Albanians who later became Serbs.

Thanks for the interesting link. Do you know how to read cyrillic because I can't and because it is an image I'm not able to dump it in google translate. If you have the time and
ability I would be very grateful for a latinized version of every cyrillic word on this image:

https://s17.postimg.org/i7um0913z/Picture1.png

Trojet
26-09-17, 19:00
Unfortunately many Albanians choose to test at 23andMe, LivingDNA, etc, which are next to useless for Y-DNA research (instead of FamilyTreeDNA or YSEQ and join Albanian Bloodlines Project), otherwise our E-V13 subclades would be much more researched. Anyways, with limited samples, here is what we have so far (I see in the above tree, the Serbs have copied some of our Albanian samples, lol):
http://www.gjenetika.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/V13Final-1.jpg

hrvat22
26-09-17, 19:18
Thanks for the interesting link. Do you know how to read cyrillic because I can't and because it is an image I'm not able to dump it in google translate. If you have the time and
ability I would be very grateful for a latinized version of every cyrillic word on this image:




https://s17.postimg.org/i7um0913z/Picture1.png

CTS9320 Mirdite (Albanian surname?)
Z16988 Bjelopavlići tribe
Klimenti (Albanian)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelmendi_(tribe)

Z38456 Dibrri (Albanian surname?)
Adilji (Albanian surname?)
Lakić (Serbian from west dalmatia)

Z16661 Kuči tribe
S2792 Lisičić (Serbian surname)
FGC11450 Batanjaku (Albanian surname?)
L241 Gaši (Albanian surname?)
Karić (Serbian surname)
FGC33625 Beriša (Albanian surname?)
Sopić (Serbian surname)

PH1246 Vasojevići tribe
Rajovići (Serbian surname)
Bojačijev ??
TBD Scotland
Ireland

Key subclade is CTS5856 for which co-administrator of the FTDNA E-M35 project says that probably comes from triangle of Albania, Montenegro and Serbia.

This subclade and those after it has nothing to do with arrival of the Slavs to Balkans, it is clear that subclade CTS5856 is exclusive Albanian mutation.

Johane Derite
26-09-17, 19:29
CTS9320 Mirdite (Albanian surname?)
Z16988 Bjelopavlići tribe
Klimenti (Albanian)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelmendi_(tribe)

Z38456 Dibrri (Albanian surname?)
Adilji (Albanian surname?)
Lakić (Serbian from west dalmatia)

Z16661 Kuči tribe
S2792 Lisičić (Serbian surname)
FGC11450 Batanjaku (Albanian surname?)
L241 Gaši (Albanian surname?)
Karić (Serbian surname)
FGC33625 Beriša (Albanian surname?)
Sopić (Serbian surname)

PH1246 Vasojevići tribe
Rajovići (Serbian surname)
Bojačijev ??
TBD Scotland
Ireland


Wow you are a legend!!!!


And yes every last name that you guessed as Albanian was correct:
Berisha: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Berisha_(tribe)
Gashi: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Gashi_(tribe)
Mirdite, Dibrri: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_tribes_of_Albania

Only Adilji I'm slightly ambigious about.

Trojet
26-09-17, 19:31
FGC33625 Beriša (Albanian surname?)
Sopić (Serbian surname)


That's actually Sopi, an Albanian tribe ;)

Trojet
26-09-17, 19:33
Only Adilji I'm slightly ambigious about.
What do you mean by "ambiguous about". He is Albanian (surname Adili), and member of our Albanian Bloodlines Project. As I stated earlier, the Serbs copied some of our samples (I guess to see how they compare), as can be seen on the tree I posted.

hrvat22
26-09-17, 19:36
That's actually Sopi, an Albanian tribe ;)


You're right Sopi without ić.

Johane Derite
26-09-17, 19:37
What do you mean by "ambiguous about". He is Albanian, and member of our Albanian Bloodlines Project. As I stated earlier, the Serbs copied some of our samples, as can be seen on the tree I posted.

I'm obviously ambigious about Adili being an Albanian surname as etymologically it is not Albanian but Arabic. So it could be any muslim.

hrvat22
26-09-17, 19:40
Wow you are a legend!!!!


And yes every last name that you guessed as Albanian was correct:
Berisha: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Berisha_(tribe)
Gashi: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Gashi_(tribe)
Mirdite, Dibrri: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_tribes_of_Albania

Only Adilji I'm slightly ambigious about.

Serbian Адиљи latin Adilji?

Thank you.

Trojet
26-09-17, 19:40
I'm obviously ambigious about Adili being an Albanian surname as etymologically it is not Albanian but Arabic. So it could be any muslim.
Well, if you followed our project closer, and not have to rely on others, you would know he is an Albanian ;)
The name/surname is not totally strange among us either, just like other muslim names. Furthermore, he belongs to the same E-V13 subclade as a Catholic Albanian from Mirditë, Albania.

hrvat22
26-09-17, 19:58
Serbs from Croatia come exclusively with Vlach name,little with the Serbian name.

There are interesting Turkish records (year 1526 and 1660) from Montenegro, southern Serbia and by the river Drina that mentione Croats and Serbs are not mentioned there.

There is a record from 1697-1698


Petar Tolstoy (Russian Count) is in his Travel Guide to Italy and to the island of Malta 1697-1698. wrote that above Boka (Bay of Kotor) inhabited by Croats. .
(further from the Ercegnan road, living by Bregi(hills), overlooking the Horvates to Perast in the Albanian principality)

Johane Derite
26-09-17, 20:11
Unfortunately many Albanians choose to test at 23andMe, LivingDNA, etc, which are next to useless for Y-DNA research (instead of FamilyTreeDNA or YSEQ and join Albanian Bloodlines Project), otherwise our E-V13 subclades would be much more researched.

The Albanian Bloodlines Project is an extremely important initiative and good on you and Unikkatil for doing it and pushing it.

If you categorize it as unfortunate that Albanians are
testing with 23andme, Ancestry,etc then I have to break the bad news that this will not be getting any better for you.

For 50% of all Albanians, i.e. females, Ftdna's $170 Ydna 37 test is useless, unless they're willing to pay for their brother or father to do the test, which
statistically is unlikely.

For the other 50% of Albanians, i.e. the males, Ftdna's $170 Ydna is also useless as for a cheaper price they can get their Y haplogroup(not as deep clade), motherline, and autosmal.
Plus health reports with 23andme. Again, for the general population, knowing that you're EV13 and not I2 is enough.

The only strategies you can rely on to push Albanians from the general population to test with Ftdna are as follows:

1. Advertise 23andme, LivingDna,etc as useless in articles in Albanian media etc.

This scenario in the long run is futile as you do not have the resources to compete for exposure with companies like these, they will only get bigger and dominate the market more
while providing even better services.

2. Advertise testing with Ftdna i.e. deeper Y clades as a national duty/sacrifice/struggle for Albanian science.

This will work with some but again negligibly with the general population.

3. Rely on the general populations ignorance of other companies existence.

This can work with some, but it is in bad faith and will again not enrichen your sample size by much.



Overall, what i'm trying to say is, that unless you try to get subsidized by the Albanian or Kosovo state or some other NGO, fund, etc, the ftdna Albanian bloodlines project will not grow drastically any time soon or ever. If you are satisfied with the pace you have had then keep it up, but there needs to be more serious state supported research.

I didn't even mention YSEQ because that is way too confusing for the average citizen

Even me, as a DNA enthusiast, if I had 150 dollars, I would buy the 23andme test. Its ultimately much better value if i'm going to invest a months salary into a
dna test. YDna is great and all but autosomal is extremely attractive, especially with the health reports etc.

hrvat22
26-09-17, 20:39
Unfortunately many Albanians choose to test at 23andMe, LivingDNA, etc, which are next to useless for Y-DNA research (instead of FamilyTreeDNA or YSEQ and join Albanian Bloodlines Project), otherwise our E-V13 subclades would be much more researched. Anyways, with limited samples, here is what we have so far (I see in the above tree, the Serbs have copied some of our Albanian samples, lol):
http://www.gjenetika.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/V13Final-1.jpg

Your genetic tree in the Serbian forum.
http://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=1058.200

And below your tree is written
Where on this tree come Albanians E-V13?

:laughing:

And no one answered him.

Trojet
26-09-17, 21:17
Johane Derite, our project keeps growing whether one chooses to participate in it or not. Examples are user hrvat22 pointing out his analysis, and the tree I posted.

I could care less where one tests, as I have nothing personally to gain out of this, but contribute to Albanian Y-DNA research. I just simply pointed out what's the best way to grow Albanian Y-DNA research (in case one is interested), since it's evident our neighbors are ahead of us.

And no, YSEQ (18 markers $58; 37 markers $85), which we recommend for our project is not confusing at all. In case it is, some of us are there to help ;)

Anyone here who understands subclades, clusters, TMRCAs, distribution, etc, will tell you there is much more to a haplogroup than just E-V13, R1b, I2, etc, even for an Albanian.

As far as Autosomal goes, I get complaints from Albanians all the time with their results. Like for example: "Well, I knew my DNA overwhelmingly comes from Southeastern Europe, or the Balkans". As for 23andMe "health reports", one will not get reliable results since it's obviously not based in Whole Genome Sequencing.

Johane Derite
26-09-17, 22:38
CTS9320 Mirdite (Albanian surname?)
Z16988 Bjelopavlići tribe
Klimenti (Albanian)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelmendi_(tribe)

Z38456 Dibrri (Albanian surname?)
Adilji (Albanian surname?)
Lakić (Serbian from west dalmatia)

Z16661 Kuči tribe
S2792 Lisičić (Serbian surname)
FGC11450 Batanjaku (Albanian surname?)
L241 Gaši (Albanian surname?)
Karić (Serbian surname)
FGC33625 Beriša (Albanian surname?)
Sopić (Serbian surname)

PH1246 Vasojevići tribe
Rajovići (Serbian surname)
Bojačijev ??
TBD Scotland
Ireland

Key subclade is CTS5856 for which co-administrator of the FTDNA E-M35 project says that probably comes from triangle of Albania, Montenegro and Serbia.

This subclade and those after it has nothing to do with arrival of the Slavs to Balkans, it is clear that subclade CTS5856 is exclusive Albanian mutation.

Hej which one is Z19851
and also one of them in PH1246 it looks like KING?

blevins13
26-09-17, 22:41
Johane Derite, our project keeps growing whether one chooses to participate in it or not. Examples are user hrvat22 pointing out his analysis, and the tree I posted.

I could care less where one tests, as I have nothing personally to gain out of this, but contribute to Albanian Y-DNA research. I just simply pointed out what's the best way to grow Albanian Y-DNA research (in case one is interested). Since it's evident our neighbors ahead of us.

And no, YSEQ (18 markers $58; 37 markers $85), which we recommend for our project is not confusing at all. Some of us are there to help, in case it is ;)

Anyone here who understands subclades and their distribution will tell you there is much more to a haplogroup than just E-V13, R1b, I2, etc, even for an Albanian.

As far as Autosomal goes, I get complaints from Albanians all the time disappointed in their results. Like for example: Well, I knew my DNA overwhelmingly comes from Southeastern Europe, or the Balkans.

How big the sample must be in order to be a representative sample......


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Trojet
27-09-17, 01:56
How big the sample must be in order to be a representative sample......
Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)
The more samples we have, the better. We currently have about 120 Albanians in the project. The plurality of samples come from Kosovë though. We'd like to have more samples from Albania proper, as most regions there have little to no representation in the project.

hrvat22
27-09-17, 13:07
Hej which one is Z19851
and also one of them in PH1246 it looks like KING?

Z19851 Bjelice (Serbian surname)


E-Z19851

Subgroup: E-V68>M78>Z1919>L618>V13>CTS5856>Z5017>BY4684>Z19851
Name: Subotic

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/E3b?iframe=ymap


As far as I can see, there is no match for Albania or Albanians for now ... Maybe a Bulgarian or Greek branch.


E-BY4684

Subgroup: E-V68>M78>Z1919>L618>V13>CTS5856>Z5017>BY4684


BY4684

This is earlier mutation from Turkey or around Istanbul. Possibly some Turkish influence on the Balkans.

Will be seen in the future.


PH1246 it looks like KING?

For this I do not know

Sile
27-09-17, 19:24
Serbs from Croatia come exclusively with Vlach name,little with the Serbian name.
There are interesting Turkish records (year 1526 and 1660) from Montenegro, southern Serbia and by the river Drina that mentione Croats and Serbs are not mentioned there.
There is a record from 1697-1698
Venetian archives for Montenegro only ever mentions basically 2 principalities , they are Zeta and Hum, ruled by only croats or serbs. The montengrians where non-coastal sheep herders living under both Zeta and Hum rule.
here is a summary of ruling people for Montenegro
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/MONTENEGRO.htm
as per the title of this thread..........the kosovo E-v13 I have always stated was due to the Dardania people of the area, the serbs have always linked themselves with the Thracian Triballi people..............the Triballi and the dardanians hated each other ................clearly E-V13 is not triballi marker
The Dardanians can be part of an early albanian people and can also be of macedonian or Paeonian splinter tribe

hrvat22
27-09-17, 20:44
Venetian archives for Montenegro only ever mentions basically 2 principalities , they are Zeta and Hum, ruled by only croats or serbs. The montengrians where non-coastal sheep herders living under both Zeta and Hum rule.
here is a summary of ruling people for Montenegro
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/MONTENEGRO.htm
as per the title of this thread..........the kosovo E-v13 I have always stated was due to the Dardania people of the area, the serbs have always linked themselves with the Thracian Triballi people..............the Triballi and the dardanians hated each other ................clearly E-V13 is not triballi marker
The Dardanians can be part of an early albanian people and can also be of macedonian or Paeonian splinter tribe

I only know these sources..

Nikifor Brienije (1062-1137)
..- Croats and Dukljans, again (1073), devastated the entire Illyricum ..
.- When Croats and Dukljans Destroyed Illyricum, "Brijen's father assembled the army by.
order of Emperor Mihail VII, (1071-1078) and leads against " Dukljans and Croats".


Dukljans are Slavic and / or Slavicized population Duklja, the first Montenegrin state, the ancestors of modern Montenegrins and other indigenous peoples living in Montenegro

https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukljansko_Kraljevstvo


-Nikita Honijat (Greek Νικήτας ὁ Χωνιάτης, c. 1155-1217), also known as Nikita Akominat
..- speaking of Stefan Nemanja(Serbian ruler) and his activity between 1160 and 1173, says for him: "Without knowing the right thing, he began to conquer Croatia and take over the power of Kotor"(Montenegro, bay)




Theodore Skoutariotes ..Teodor Skutariota on conquering Duklja by Stefan Nemanja:
And he also heard that the Serbian ruler Nemanja Stjepan became involved in affairs of the neighboring countries, that he same race [Slavic] peoples attack with weapons, and that he wants Croats to be subject to him



John Skylitzes, Latinized as Ioannes Scylitzes (1040-1101)The Bulgarian tribal leaders asked Mihailo, who then rules of those who called themselves Croats, who dwelt in Kotor(Montenegro) and Papratnica, and who had no small country under them, to help them work with them and to give them their son whom they will proclaim as emperor of Bulgaria "
Mihailo, the first king in Duklja and Montenegrin history, the head of the Duklja state from the Vojislavljević dynasty, from 1046 to 1081.


Andrija Dandolo, Venetian (1343-1354)
Svetopulk, the king of Dalmatia ... on the Duvanjsko polje(Hercegovina) was crowned and divided the kingdom of its Dalmatia into four parts ... From the field, namely Duvanjsko(Hercegovina) to Istria, is called White Croatia, and from that field to Drač(Durrës Albania) Red Croatia; and the mountain part of the Drina River to Macedonia is called Raška, and from this river here, to Bosnia ... Modern, the whole coastline is called Dalmatia, and the mountain part called Croatia

hrvat22
09-10-17, 22:15
Information from Serbian portal about y haplogroup of Serbian politician.


BY611 branch of haplogroup R1b, belonging to Zukorlic, is represented by all the Balkan peoples, and is very characteristic of the Albanians.




Interestingly, Zukorlic is genetically very close to Hašim Tači(Prime Minister of Kosovo) because there is a result of tested Tači from village of Broćna near Drenica(Kosovo) - Krtinic revealed, which also clarified Zukorlic's haplogroup.


It is not true that this haplogroup is related to eight percent of Serbs and zero to Russians, but is related to six percent of Serbs and six percent Russians - concluded the founder of the "Serbian DNA Project".


Jovica Krtinić, portal editor "poreklo.rs" and one of the founders of "Serbian DNA Project",

http://www.alo.rs/seselj-je-srbin-a-zukorlic-je-blizak-taciju/122482



Muamer Zukorlić is Bosniak and live in south Serbia (politician)

This in fact means that 6% of today's Serbs with R1b on the male line is Albanian origin, confirmed by founder of the "Serbian DNA Project, and further states
As far as Ilira is concerned, it has not yet been established which haplogroup among them was dominant, but the best candidate for it is the haplogroup of E1b1b, which is far more represented than the R1b haplogroup on the territory of former Illyricum

Garrick
17-10-17, 01:57
Obviously, a good part of today's Serbs by the male line is Albanian origin.

Your conclusions are mostly wrong because you do not take in account context.

One of explanation of context you can read in #206, thread "34363-E-V13-subclades-in-Greece":

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34363-E-V13-subclades-in-Greece/page9?p=521263&viewfull=1#post521263

Scientists precisely determined an area in Bulgaria where Albanians (Shqiptarët) lived before they came to the present-day Albania in the second half of the first millenium.

Bulgaria was big power in 9-10th century, in the Balkans and wider. Among other territories, almost whole today's Albania was Bulgarian territory.

Local inhabitants are assimilated. Who assimilated older or younger subclades in areas where different people came it doesn't matter. E-V13 carriers (about you discuss) spoke Latin before assimilation, if newcomers did not come, they might be Italians today.

Albanians assimilated some Serbs and have male lines of Serbian origin, Serbs assimilated some Albanians and have male lines of Albanian origin (and there are contexts for both directions of assimilation and periods) but what is interesting is that Albanians and Serbs have remained quite different populations, and despite their centuries of life, relatively close to each other. This is largely due to different religions (Albanians mostly embraced Islam and Serbs complied with Orthodox Christianity).

Conclusion: Albanians are linked with Bulgarians (not significantly to the Serbs) and this is because their ancestors once lived in the area (which scientists precisely determined) in the territory of Bulgaria.

Yetos
17-10-17, 03:59
I think we play a stupid game,
by naming and characterising populations with modern nationalities,

V-13 prexisted all IE in Balkans,

so any attempt to say V-13 is Greek or Serbian and especially Albanian as some claim in forum is Just stupidity,

cause V-13 did fall from the sky, in Dolmetian Alps,
neither spoke IE, and neither is Caucasian or Steppe

especially the last I have seen that V-13 is proto-Illyrian

Just for laughs.

Hrvat, stop provoking Garrick,your claim is ridiculous

Leka
17-10-17, 04:31
YSEQ confusing? Actually YSEQ is one of the simplest and most user friendly site I have ever seen - combined with their affordable prices and superior customer service they are the most attractive company out there currently. Too bad not many people know about it or are willing to give them a chance. Their Alpha-Beta package (37 marker test) at $85 is a steal! Y-DNA37 at Family Tree DNA, which is basically the exact same test, is twice that, and not to forget takes twice as long to process.

don_joe
21-11-17, 16:22
Can anyone tell me, what would knowing my E-V13 subclade bring me? I'm considering the V13 Panel at YSEQ for $88.00 but would I really learn something more about my origin? Where would be the benefit except knowing a subclade name? I'm curious but I'm not sure enough if it's worth it at the moment.

Johane Derite
21-11-17, 17:05
Can anyone tell me, what would knowing my E-V13 subclade bring me? I'm considering the V13 Panel at YSEQ for $88.00 but would I really learn something more about my origin? Where would be the benefit except knowing a subclade name? I'm curious but I'm not sure enough if it's worth it at the moment.

You would know more closely who it is you share a grandfather with. Which tribes you are more closely related to in time. For example here is the tree from the Albanian Bloodlines Project:

https://i.imgur.com/8NkE3IF.jpg

don_joe
21-11-17, 17:38
You would know more closely who it is you share a grandfather with. Which tribes you are more closely related to in time. For example here is the tree from the Albanian Bloodlines Project:

https://i.imgur.com/8NkE3IF.jpg

Thank you Johane. I've seen this tree, I just can not relate to it as a Croat. Some 10% of Croats have this Haplo too. I need some broader info over the whole region and it seems there is not much more available at the moment. That's why I doubt that spending $88 is worth for me. Albanian Bloodline Project is a useful initiative which I support but it's too local. Thanks.

Johane Derite
21-11-17, 23:52
I've seen this tree, I just can not relate to it as a Croat. Some 10% of Croats have this Haplo too. I need some broader info over the whole region and it seems there is not much more available at the moment. That's why I doubt that spending $88 is worth for me. Albanian Bloodline Project is a useful initiative which I support but it's too local. Thanks.

Well if you do the test and your subclade is any of the ones in the tree above then it relates pretty directly to you or anyone, regardless if croat or from zimbabwe.
If you are Z16988 then you have the same great great ~grandfather as Kelmendi tribe for example.

There are also other local Ev13 projects such as the one on Poreklo and Serbian DNA project.

don_joe
22-11-17, 16:20
Well if you do the test and your subclade is any of the ones in the tree above then it relates pretty directly to you or anyone, regardless if croat or from zimbabwe.
If you are Z16988 then you have the same great great ~grandfather as Kelmendi tribe for example.

There are also other local Ev13 projects such as the one on Poreklo and Serbian DNA project.

Thanks for the tip, I've checked out these recommended sites. The problem is that they are too ethnocentric and they don't offer a bigger picture over the region. If I speak for my family, OK, it's theoretically even possible that we've got something to do with the Kelemendis, but at least not in the last 500 years as far as my ancestors are mentioned in the Croatian church books. There was someone there before from whom we share ancestry and it's unclear at the moment who it was due to scarce data. So my logic is, if I test for subclade, it would tell me nothing yet. Even if it matches some Albanian or Serbian tribe, it goes a bit further back to someone before us in the ancestry line. Look how old the subclades are on your tree, 4600-1950 bc or ybp. It's far older than any clan, if you understand what I mean. Maybe it could link me to some contemporary group but that wouldn't answer my questions about origin. Do you know, are there any other papers about subclades without one-sided interpretations? Thanks.

eastara
09-12-17, 23:55
On the Balkans Bulgarians have the most diverse clades of E-V13. For now we have found all major branches with the exception of L540. Bulgarians are very diverse under CTS9320, too, including many tested CTS9320*, i.e undiscovered branch.
Unfortunately not many have the means for deeper SNP testing. The picture is not getting clear as Bulgarians are lacking the STR clustering under V13, which Albanians and Serbs have, and this helps them identify the branch of even those without SNPs.

axualonso
11-12-17, 23:50
Dear all, balkan e v13 history must change. Do not believe western historical lies please. Balkan e v13 is came to balkans from east europe before serbs. You were nomadic hunnic tribes and you were living in east hun empire somewhere in chuvashia. E was born in west asia. E V13 was born in east europe now we can say chuvashia. You were the western soldiers of east hun empire. After the collapse of hun empire you migrated to balkans.

axualonso
11-12-17, 23:57
Albanians makedonians and greeks was belong to J, I and R haplos. After some time some of E V 13 asimilated to albanians, makedonians and greeks. After serbs came again an asimilation occured in some time. Please take my replies into consideration. In future, some real dna and history will be written about balkan e v13 and you will learn the truth i hope...

Dibran
12-12-17, 18:37
Dear all, balkan e v13 history must change. Do not believe western historical lies please. Balkan e v13 is came to balkans from east europe before serbs. You were nomadic hunnic tribes and you were living in east hun empire somewhere in chuvashia. E was born in west asia. E V13 was born in east europe now we can say chuvashia. You were the western soldiers of east hun empire. After the collapse of hun empire you migrated to balkans.

Albanians makedonians and greeks was belong to J, I and R haplos. After some time some of E V 13 asimilated to albanians, makedonians and greeks. After serbs came again an asimilation occured in some time. Please take my replies into consideration. In future, some real dna and history will be written about balkan e v13 and you will learn the truth i hope...

What the hell are you talking about? Theres more than enough evidence against that whacky claim.

blevins13
19-12-17, 00:04
In relation with local migration I have this article for our Greek friends.... http://www.kathimerini.gr/939714/article/epikairothta/politikh/pagkalos-oi-soyliwtisses-htan-alvanofwnes---ellhnas-opoios-ais8anetai-etsi


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Lenab
19-12-17, 05:18
E3b is the pre historic Red Sea mix in the Balkans seen the highest in Albanian Arvanites South Serbian Montenegrins

blevins13
19-12-17, 08:15
E3b is the pre historic Red Sea mix in the Balkans seen the highest in Albanian Arvanites South Serbian Montenegrins

I believe that E-v13 is Balkanic, its mutation probably happen in the Danubian basin....


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Lenab
19-12-17, 16:30
I think we play a stupid game,
by naming and characterising populations with modern nationalities,

V-13 prexisted all IE in Balkans,

so any attempt to say V-13 is Greek or Serbian and especially Albanian as some claim in forum is Just stupidity,

cause V-13 did fall from the sky, in Dolmetian Alps,
neither spoke IE, and neither is Caucasian or Steppe

especially the last I have seen that V-13 is proto-Illyrian

Just for laughs.

Hrvat, stop provoking Garrick,your claim is ridiculous

It's a pre historic East Mediterranean coastal genetics out of anyone in Europe it's the highest in Greek Cypriots at least according to GED match. But people associate it with E1b1b therefore that's higher in the Balkans than South Europe. That's why people might jump to conclusions oh it's a type of Southern Serb Albanian Arvanites Macedonian type ancestry of genetics. When really it's just a pre historic coastal mix, translated into many regions.

The Illyrian E1b1b Red Sea thing might be correct as my GED match score was almost 8 percent and I got a direct match to Italian Abruzzo in Single population match setting.

Lenab
19-12-17, 16:39
I think the Red Sea E1b1b match in Greek Cyprus is like almost 9 percent lol


https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-12/25529889_1930622133924284_1429469368_n.jpg?oh=663a d04e9d4201b6f94401e046c624e3&oe=5A3B10A4

Lenab
19-12-17, 16:39
https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/24059156_1921308138189017_4450400221665948880_n.jp g?oh=4a5164cdd5558ae4e5819fb31dd91905&oe=5AD11144

Ownstyler
10-02-18, 21:55
This subclade and those after it has nothing to do with arrival of the Slavs to Balkans, it is clear that subclade CTS5856 is exclusive Albanian mutation.

Sorry if this is obvious to you, but why would you say that, based on what evidence? And why that subclade specifically? What about other V-13 subclades?


This in fact means that 6% of today's Serbs with R1b on the male line is Albanian origin, confirmed by founder of the "Serbian DNA Project, and further states

Are you saying that because this person is close to a person in Drenica they are of Albanian origin? What if the person from Drenica came from the Serbian person is? How can you exclude this possibility?

kuzmosi
11-02-18, 00:09
Dear E-V13 brothers!

I'm a Z17107+, and BY4425+, but negative the Z38456, BY4459, Y30991, BY4461, BY4465, BY4466 mutations. Later I made a Whole Genom Sequence from YSEQ, and I sent it to YFULL. They found in my pattern 16 new, private SNP-s. (I'm the id:YF11315 in the Yfull's YTREE.)
Later I ordered two other Z17107 SNP test for two of my direct male relatives. They were +. I ordered a third Z17107 SNP test for a man, who is not my known relative since 1811, but is wearing my family name. It was Z17107+ too. I ordered him a BigY from FTDNA. This is not ready yet. Yesterday I sent a sample to YSEQ a new man who is not my relative, and not a relative to the previous person, but his family name is the same as mine.

My family name is Küzmös. My known direct Küzmös ancestors born and lived a Northeast Hungarian village, Penészlek, Szatmár county since 1770s certainly been, but probably even earlier. They were greek-catholics, and I think, they were rusins (ruthenians). According the FtDNA, my closest (and only)Y-DNA match is a man from Kentucky, his name is Senetar, but his great-grandfather is migrated from Hungary at 1880s, he was rusin too, and his original name was Szinetár. According to these, our Z17107 family originally rusin (ruthenian).

But our name is not a rusin, or hungarian family name. It is a cuman name, it means: "the desired". But the cumans were a turkish language nation in the XI-XIII. century. The 1220s mongolian invasion broke and scattered them to Hungary and Bulgaria, but those who remained and became crimean tatars, cossacks or anything else.

I really care about my ancestors, but at this time I can not find a connection between my family bloodline (E-Z17107*) and the Balkan. Neither serbian or albanian. I know, we have a common ancestor about in the time of Herodotus (800 BC) with the albanian Dibbri clan, and our croatian, bosnian, serbian and bulgarian brothers (and with my russian, ukrainian, swedish and irish brothers) But I don't know where to live. I think about 800 BC, the Z17107 father lived somewhere in the Danubian basin, or east of it, and they migrated from here. But I don't know what kind of people or tribe is belonged to.

blevins13
11-02-18, 00:15
Dear E-V13 brothers!

I'm a Z17107+, and BY4425+, but negative the Z38456, BY4459, Y30991, BY4461, BY4465, BY4466 mutations. Later I made a Whole Genom Sequence from YSEQ, and I sent it to YFULL. They found in my pattern 16 new, private SNP-s. (I'm the id:YF11315 in the Yfull's YTREE.)
Later I ordered two other Z17107 SNP test for two of my direct male relatives. They were +. I ordered a third Z17107 SNP test for a man, who is not my known relative since 1811, but is wearing my family name. It was Z17107+ too. I ordered him a BigY from FTDNA. This is not ready yet. Yesterday I sent a sample to YSEQ a new man who is not my relative, and not a relative to the previous person, but his family name is the same as mine.

My family name is Küzmös. My known direct Küzmös ancestors born and lived a Northeast Hungarian village, Penészlek, Szatmár county since 1770s certainly been, but probably even earlier. They were greek-catholics, and I think, they were rusins (ruthenians). According the FtDNA, my closest (and only)Y-DNA match is a man from Kentucky, his name is Senetar, but his great-grandfather is migrated from Hungary at 1880s, he was rusin too, and his original name was Szinetár. According to these, our Z17107 family originally rusin (ruthenian).

But our name is not a rusin, or hungarian family name. It is a cuman name, it means: "the desired". But the cumans were a turkish language nation in the XI-XIII. century. The 1220s mongolian invasion broke and scattered them to Hungary and Bulgaria, but those who remained and became crimean tatars, cossacks or anything else.

I really care about my ancestors, but at this time I can not find a connection between my family bloodline (E-Z17107*) and the Balkan. Neither serbian or albanian. I know, we have a common ancestor about in the time of Herodotus (800 BC) with the albanian Dibbri clan, and our croatian, bosnian, serbian and bulgarian brothers (and with my russian, ukrainian, swedish and irish brothers) But I don't know where to live. I think about 800 BC, the Z17107 father lived somewhere in the Danubian basin, or east of it, and they migrated from here. But I don't know what kind of people or tribe is belonged to.

Looking forward for some ancient E-v13 to solve this puzzle


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eastara
11-02-18, 00:42
Dear E-V13 brothers!

I really care about my ancestors, but at this time I can not find a connection between my family bloodline (E-Z17107*) and the Balkan. Neither serbian or albanian. I know, we have a common ancestor about in the time of Herodotus (800 BC) with the albanian Dibbri clan, and our croatian, bosnian, serbian and bulgarian brothers (and with my russian, ukrainian, swedish and irish brothers) But I don't know where to live. I think about 800 BC, the Z17107 father lived somewhere in the Danubian basin, or east of it, and they migrated from here. But I don't know what kind of people or tribe is belonged to.

Well, maybe not E-Z17107*, but other subbranches of E-Z17107 are found on the Balkans and since it is not very old, you are related.
In fact the only main V13 branch (coming directly from CTS5856) not found in the South Balkans is L540. This, together with the pre E-V13 L618 branch may point that V13 could actually come to the Balkans from the North and not from mythical Red sea, etc.

kuzmosi
11-02-18, 21:11
Can we know which one of the EV-13's six main subclade is the most significant in the modern countries? You said, the L540 is not found in the South Balkan. I read somewhere that Bulgarias main EV13 subclades is the Z5017, if I remember correctly. And which one is the most common among the albanians, serbians, greeks and others?

eastara
12-02-18, 03:20
You can find detailed data about commercially tested Albanians and Serbs here.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KSmZNQYh6MYkcLMBTQUT3vRseKd450hbbUvBs_j0CkU/edit#gid=1024387137
https://dnk.poreklo.rs/tabela-pojedinacne-grupe/?grp-filter=E

Unfortunately some of the administrators of the Bulgarian DNA projects were against publishing a public database in view we can breach the privacy of those who chose to be visible to other project members only.
I can only say, that V13 Bulgarians, together with Bulgarian Muslims(Pomaks) and Bulgarian Turks(with presumably local origin) are very diverse and more subbranches are found among them than Albanians and Serbs.
For example no Serbs and Albanians are found with the widely distributed S7461, while it is common among Bulgarians and Pomaks. We have Bulgarians also under Y16729 and most probably under Z16663(with 426=10), which is also not found elsewhere on the Balkans(having in mind that Pontic Greeks are just pure Anatolian and not Balkan people).
It seems the most numerous subbranches among Bulgarians are under Z5016/CTS9320 and Z5018/S2979, but as I mentioned other are also common.
However the deep SNP testing among Balkan V13 is not very popular yet and I hope more branches will be identified with time.

hrvat22
12-02-18, 11:05
I really care about my ancestors, but at this time I can not find a connection between my family bloodline (E-Z17107*) and the Balkan. Neither serbian or albanian. I know, we have a common ancestor about in the time of Herodotus (800 BC) with the albanian Dibbri clan, and our croatian, bosnian, serbian and bulgarian brothers (and with my russian, ukrainian, swedish and irish brothers) But I don't know where to live. I think about 800 BC, the Z17107 father lived somewhere in the Danubian basin, or east of it, and they migrated from here. But I don't know what kind of people or tribe is belonged to.If you are positive for E-Z17107 then surely your male ancestors coming from Albania or south east Europe. E-Z17107 subclade is old around three thousand years(your male ancestor) and from that time it was probably some migration towards Ukraine and Hungaria or from Bulgaria but the source is probably around Albania because subclade CTS5856 (old around four thousand years and an ancestor of E-Z17107) originate in northwest Albania, behind E-Z17107 exist subclade Z38456 which have some Albanians so very likely a source is there.

don_joe
12-02-18, 11:43
I am now becoming very interested in knowing my subclade. Could someone please recommend me the next step? I've tested with Living DNA, unfortunately they have no details for E-V13. Now I am considering YSEQ E1b-V13 Panel for $88. Will this provide me sufficient information or would you suggest something else? Could you also tell me, what is the procedure with YSEQ? Do I have to send a swab sample again or can they use my Living DNA test results? Sorry for asking silly questions, I just can't find any info on YSEQ page and I don't have time to dig deeper, but my curiosity is strong anyway. I appreciate your help.

Odyssey
12-02-18, 13:11
I am now becoming very interested in knowing my subclade. Could someone please recommend me the next step? I've tested with Living DNA, unfortunately they have no details for E-V13. Now I am considering YSEQ E1b-V13 Panel for $88. Will this provide me sufficient information or would you suggest something else? Could you also tell me, what is the procedure with YSEQ? Do I have to send a swab sample again or can they use my Living DNA test results? Sorry for asking silly questions, I just can't find any info on YSEQ page and I don't have time to dig deeper, but my curiosity is strong anyway. I appreciate your help.


I would recommend you to enter your STR results in Nevgen calculator first (nevgen.org). This calculator can predict your SNP quite accurate, just choose option "Longer haplotypes". Based on this prediction you will see, if it is meaningful to do E1b-V13 Panel. Regarding Yseq, you need to send them a new sample. They will send you a swab kit, if you order E1b-V13 Panel.

kuzmosi
12-02-18, 15:39
eastara!

Thank you, you helped me.

hrvat22!

Thank you, but I think, the Z17107 ancestor lived in the Vucedol culture, among the proto-illyrians, and lived somewhere the Danubian Basin (today Hungary, Croatia and Serbia) Some of his sons moved to the south (Z38456) about 1200-1400 BC, but some of his sons stay and later merged into the celts and the pre-scythians (sigynnas). Maybe.

don joe!

So far I ordered from the ancestrybyDNA (USA), the Genographic Project, FtDNA and the YSEQ. YSEQ is the quickest and most accurate one. All of my 8 great-great garndfathers bloodline tested by YSEQ. I oredere an YSEQ alpha, and later the recommended panel. You will need to send a new sample to Berlin, but they look for your SNP-s as precisely as possible.

An example: I sent my own sample 4 different institute:

ancestrybyDNA told: I'm E1b1b
Genographic Project told: I'm: E-L542
FtDNA told: I'm: E-CTS9320
YSEQ told: I'm E-Z17107+ but negative for all known subclades

don_joe
12-02-18, 15:56
eastara!

Thank you, you helped me.

hrvat22!

Thank you, but I think, the Z17107 ancestor lived in the Vucedol culture, among the proto-illyrians, and lived somewhere the Danubian Basin (today Hungary, Croatia and Serbia) Some of his sons moved to the south (Z38456) about 1200-1400 BC, but some of his sons stay and later merged into the celts and the pre-scythians (sigynnas). Maybe.

don joe!

So far I ordered from the ancestrybyDNA (USA), the Genographic Project, FtDNA and the YSEQ. YSEQ is the quickest and most accurate one. All of my 8 great-great garndfathers bloodline tested by YSEQ. I oredere an YSEQ alpha, and later the recommended panel. You will need to send a new sample to Berlin, but they look for your SNP-s as precisely as possible.

An example: I sent my own sample 4 different institute:

ancestrybyDNA told: I'm E1b1b
Genographic Project told: I'm: E-L542
FtDNA told: I'm: E-CTS9320
YSEQ told: I'm E-Z17107+ but negative for all known subclades


Thank you kuzmosi for your detailed answer. Just to be sure, do you recommend going directly for YSEQ Panel? Could you also give me a few links where I can analyse my results afterwards or where I can prepare myself before? Much appreciated.

Trojet
12-02-18, 16:16
Thank you kuzmosi for your detailed answer. Just to be sure, do you recommend going directly for YSEQ Panel? Could you also give me a few links where I can analyse my results afterwards or where I can prepare myself before? Much appreciated.

If you know that you are V13, and would like to find the "terminal" subclade/SNP, I would go straight for the YSEQ E1b-V13 Panel. And yes, you would have to send a sample kit to their lab in Berlin, which is included when you buy any of their first tests: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=2486

hrvat22
12-02-18, 16:26
hrvat22!Thank you, but I think, the Z17107 ancestor lived in the Vucedol culture, among the proto-illyrians, and lived somewhere the Danubian Basin (today Hungary, Croatia and Serbia) Some of his sons moved to the south (Z38456) about 1200-1400 BC, but some of his sons stay and later merged into the celts and the pre-scythians (sigynnas). Maybe. First we have to go from beginning, for now we know that subclade CTS5856 or great ancestor of Z17107 has a source in northwestern Albania and northeastern Montenegro. Considering that descendant subclade Z38456 (son of Z17107) has a few Albanians in Albania it can be assumed that the father (Z17107) and the son (Z38456) live in the same area ie. three thousand years ago. For this reason, I believe migration moves from there. If you have evidence for your claim, attach it. However if you are right then this Albanians with subclades Z38456 come from Vucedol three thousand years ago to the hills of Albania.For now I have data of ancient R1b, I2a2 in Vucedol, if you have other data tell me. http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.hr/2015/06/2-vucedol-period-are-r1b.htmlhttps://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31376-new-ancient-DNA-from-Vucedol-and-others

don_joe
12-02-18, 16:30
If you know that you are V13, and would like to find the "terminal" subclade/SNP, I would go straight for the YSEQ E1b-V13 Panel. And yes, you would have to send a sample kit to their lab in Berlin, which is included when you buy any of their first tests: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=2486

Great, thanks Trojet. Do you have any links with more details about E-V13 subclades to recommend? I would like to be better informed, to know what to expect or what the interpretations of the results could be.

Shetop
12-02-18, 16:30
First we have to go from beginning, for now we know that subclade CTS5856 or great ancestor of Z17107 has a source in northwestern Albania and northeastern Montenegro.

How do we know that?

hrvat22
12-02-18, 16:43
How do we know that?

We know this on the basis of this
Text of co-administrator of the FTDNA E-M35 project. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3toPDBv-MLKc04zdEd6MDJlaTQ/view

Maybe that's not true, but we only have this as a source. If someone has something else to refute this source I will respect that.

don_joe
12-02-18, 16:58
We know this on the basis of this https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3toPDBv-MLKc04zdEd6MDJlaTQ/view

Maybe that's not true, but we only have this as a source. If someone has something else to refute this source I will respect that.

OK, this is the answer to my questions before, I've missed it somehow in the OP. Thanks. I'll certainly have a nice read this evening.

I don't see your haplogroup, may I assume that it is the one this topic is about? Do you know your subclades? BTW, I'm from ZG too.

hrvat22
12-02-18, 17:18
OK, this is the answer to my questions before, I've missed it somehow in the OP. Thanks. I'll certainly have a nice read this evening.I don't see your haplogroup, may I assume that it is the one this topic is about? Do you know your subclades? BTW, I'm from ZG too.I did not research my haplogroup, but I am interested in Croatian haplogroups. Regarding your haplogroup there are four options, 1. comes with Vlachs (Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia, Romania?) 2. assimilated Illyrians 3. comes with White Croats or some western Europeans 4. alien origin :cool-v:

kuzmosi
12-02-18, 18:45
The YSEQ EV-13 panel will not give you detailed, analyzed results. No more, and no less, just your exact position with the Y-tree, the SNP-s required for this is tested on your sample. (about 100 SNP will be tested, but STR-s does not specify. The STR-s define with the Yseq alpha, or the YSEQ Alpha-Beta) If you want more precise and analyzed results, you need to have a Whole Genom Sequence. I made my own sample at YSEQ, but it is not the cheapest (but the fastest) The FtDNA BigY test is cheaper. I ordered a BigY for another Küzmös, who is not my known relative since 200 years but it is in progress yet. So I don't know which test is better.

If you want

kuzmosi
12-02-18, 19:27
Of course I don't know what happened about 4000 years ago, and I really new to the ancestral-genetics, but I'm interested the history of the Bronz Age in the Carpathian Basin. More than 30 years I read everything about it. But is is just a theory. The facts: The Bronz Age in the Danubian Basin was very complex. Many culture fluorished here. But in the XV.-XIV. century BC, the Tumulus culture from northeast attacked the local cultures, and much of them fled south, to the Balkan. Maybe the CTS9320 father was one of them. It happened 3500 years ago.
Or another option: The Bronz Age cultures of the Carpathian Basin were collapsed and largely perished at the XIII. century BC. 2-3 Thousend years old settlements died permanently. The attackers were the Tumulus culture. Again. The still living population fled to the south. Again. At that time was the dorian invasion to Hellas, the illyrians moved to the Dinaric mountains, and the Thracians to Thracia. (The phrygians goes from the Balkan to the Anatolia. I think, because the Thracians and/or illyrians invaded their homeland.) This was the big uproar in the eastern-mediterraneum. The Hettita Empire collapsed, and aliens invaded to Egypt. Very interesting, the CTS9320 branch at this time it was divided to 6 main known subclades (Y20805, Z17107, Z25461, Z16988, Z17264, and the * subclades)

But it is just a theory.

don_joe
12-02-18, 22:58
The YSEQ EV-13 panel will not give you detailed, analyzed results. No more, and no less, just your exact position with the Y-tree, the SNP-s required for this is tested on your sample. (about 100 SNP will be tested, but STR-s does not specify. The STR-s define with the Yseq alpha, or the YSEQ Alpha-Beta) If you want more precise and analyzed results, you need to have a Whole Genom Sequence. I made my own sample at YSEQ, but it is not the cheapest (but the fastest) The FtDNA BigY test is cheaper. I ordered a BigY for another Küzmös, who is not my known relative since 200 years but it is in progress yet. So I don't know which test is better.

If you want

Thanks again. I'm now a bit confused, sorry for asking again. Between YSEQ E-V13 Panel ($88) and the YSEQ-Alpha-Beta ($85) what would you choose in my place to gather more detailed subclade info? I somehow can't find any explanations online. I understand some basics of SNP and STR, but what does it mean in terms of identifying the subclade branch and finding my closer relatives (or how this topic nicely puts it - the migrations in the Balkans)? Does one of those go further than the other one? I'm ready to spend some reasonable amount of money and I would like to get enough details out of it. I appreciate you kindness.

kuzmosi
12-02-18, 23:25
Do you know your main haplogroup is EV-13? Are you sure it?

don_joe
13-02-18, 01:53
Do you know your main haplogroup is EV-13? Are you sure it?

Yes I am. That was the result from Living DNA. That's why I also have it under my user name.

kuzmosi
13-02-18, 13:30
So, I think, at first order the EV-13 panel. From this, you will know your exact position on the YTREE. If it will be ready, you can investigate further.

don_joe
13-02-18, 15:16
So, I think, at first order the EV-13 panel. From this, you will know your exact position on the YTREE. If it will be ready, you can investigate further.

Thank you!

Guido Anselmi
14-02-18, 12:28
You can find detailed data about commercially tested Albanians and Serbs here..

Apologies for being off-topic but can you tell me about the presence of J-M241 in Bulgaria?

Trojet
14-02-18, 14:49
For example no Serbs and Albanians are found with the widely distributed S7461, while it is common among Bulgarians and Pomaks. We have Bulgarians also under Y16729 and most probably under Z16663(with 426=10), which is also not found elsewhere on the Balkans(having in mind that Pontic Greeks are just pure Anatolian and not Balkan people).
It seems the most numerous subbranches among Bulgarians are under Z5016/CTS9320 and Z5018/S2979, but as I mentioned other are also common.
However the deep SNP testing among Balkan V13 is not very popular yet and I hope more branches will be identified with time.

I believe E-S7461 will be found in Albanians sooner or later. One thing to keep in mind is that currently over 80% of our samples come from North Albania and Kosove. E-V13 is quite common in Central and Southern Albania as well, where we have very little testing. So it remains to be seen what's found there.

But I generally agree that E-V13 is pretty diverse all around Balkans including Bulgaria. TMRCA of CTS5856, which makes up over 95% of Balkan V13 is estimated at only ~4000 years. So really interesting how widely distributed this haplogroup has become ever since. IMO, Iron Age Balkan populations (Illyrians, Thracians, Ancient Greeks) all carried it.

eastara
15-02-18, 10:21
Regarding V13 I don't agree that most branches among Bulgarians are common with the Albanians, let alone we got them from there. As a project administrator I can see that most Bulgarians don't have any matches above 25 markers and even very rarely match each other on 37 and more markers. For now I can see something in common with the Albanians under L241 only.
Speaking of J2b2, yes, most Bulgarian samples seem to have a Macedonian or other South Western Balkan connection, but again we have too few deeper tested to make a definite judgement. It seems the Albanians are more on the same branches with Italians, while Bulgarians with North Europeans. Practically all Bulgarians who passed the Big Y test are on YFULL, so you can see where we stand there, as the J2 Pack does not get very deep.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

hrvat22
15-02-18, 10:45
Regarding V13 I don't agree that most branches among Bulgarians are common with the Albanians, let alone we got them from there. As a project administrator I can see that most Bulgarians don't have any matches above 25 markers and even very rarely match each other on 37 and more markers. For now I can see something in common with the Albanians under L241 only.
Speaking of J2b2, yes, most Bulgarian samples seem to have a Macedonian or other South Western Balkan connection, but again we have too few deeper tested to make a definite judgement. It seems the Albanians are more on the same branches with Italians, while Bulgarians with North Europeans. Practically all Bulgarians who passed the Big Y test are on YFULL, so you can see where we stand there, as the J2 Pack does not get very deep.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

Then on that basis make a concrete conclusion, probably an older migration moving from today's Albania to Bulgaria. It is important for me to know which younger branches and subclades of E1b are originally there(Bulgaria) because then we can see whether Vlachs coming and from there to Croatia.

eastara
15-02-18, 12:22
V13 or even CTS5856 did not originate in Albania nor it came originally to the rest of the Balkans from there. It only SURVIVED better in the mountain areas of the South Western Balkan during the early Middle ages. Most lowlands along the Danube were almost completely deserted by the old population, and later repopulated either by new migrants from the North and NorthEast or with highlanders who came down later. In the case with the Albanians and Vlach Aromuns it was only in the last few centuries. Some of them settled in the NorthWestern Balkans and it is possible some V13 branches there are brought by them recently. However Bulgarians had some other mountains to hide in like the Balkan and Rhodopes, where other branches survived.

Shetop
15-02-18, 12:54
V13 or even CTS5856 did not originate in Albania nor it came originally to the rest of the Balkans from there. It only SURVIVED better in the mountain areas of the South Western Balkan during the early Middle ages. Most lowlands along the Danube were almost completely deserted by the old population, and later repopulated either by new migrants from the North and NorthEast or with highlanders who came down later.I would agree with that. Mountains were a refuge not a source.

LABERIA
15-02-18, 13:38
I would agree with that. Mountains were a refuge not a source.

Both, refuge and source.

hrvat22
20-02-18, 09:09
New E1b V13 tree.

https://i.imgur.com/eYw4VBE.png

Jovialis
20-02-18, 12:04
New E1b V13 tree.

Where is this from? You will have to provide a link for this.

hrvat22
20-02-18, 13:18
Where is this from? You will have to provide a link for this.

Information is from Serbian genetic portal, new subclade is BY3380 ?

It is claimed that this change was introduced by the administrator of FTDNA E-M35.

Since here are experts for E1b V13 I passed this information to see if it was true, I do not have a link because I can not enter in FTDNA E-M35 project.

For now this change is not visible on the YFull tree.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

Shetop
20-02-18, 13:44
Information is from Serbian genetic portal, new subclade is BY3380 ?Actually it was a small mistake which came from the original source. It is not BY3380 but BY3880​. :)

hrvat22
20-02-18, 14:10
Shetop


Actually it was a small mistake which came from the original source. It is not BY3380 but BY3880​. :)

:ashamed2:

Leka
20-02-18, 16:08
Sorry if this is obvious to you, but why would you say that, based on what evidence? And why that subclade specifically? What about other V-13 subclades?



Are you saying that because this person is close to a person in Drenica they are of Albanian origin? What if the person from Drenica came from the Serbian person is? How can you exclude this possibility?

Handful of Serbs under this branch and almost all with origin from Montenegro. In other hand, this specific branch is a major line among the clans of north Albania.

And no, I am not a Serb or have Serbian origin.

Dibran
20-02-18, 16:26
V13 or even CTS5856 did not originate in Albania nor it came originally to the rest of the Balkans from there. It only SURVIVED better in the mountain areas of the South Western Balkan during the early Middle ages. Most lowlands along the Danube were almost completely deserted by the old population, and later repopulated either by new migrants from the North and NorthEast or with highlanders who came down later. In the case with the Albanians and Vlach Aromuns it was only in the last few centuries. Some of them settled in the NorthWestern Balkans and it is possible some V13 branches there are brought by them recently. However Bulgarians had some other mountains to hide in like the Balkan and Rhodopes, where other branches survived.

You're full of it. Do you know how long a century is? it is 100 years. So you mean to tell me Albanian highlanders only populated most of Albanian lands only 300 years ago? Thats worse than the retarded Caucasus theory. Albanians spread out from the Alps in the earlier middle ages, as early as 1000-1100 becoming a majority in the low lands between then and 1400.

Yea, we are supposed to believe your bonkers claim that Albanians only inhabited those lands 300 years ago. Give me a break.

LABERIA
20-02-18, 17:50
You're full of it. Do you know how long a century is? it is 100 years. So you mean to tell me Albanian highlanders only populated most of Albanian lands only 300 years ago? Thats worse than the retarded Caucasus theory. Albanians spread out from the Alps in the earlier middle ages, as early as 1000-1100 becoming a majority in the low lands between then and 1400.

Yea, we are supposed to believe your bonkers claim that Albanians only inhabited those lands 300 years ago. Give me a break.

I think he is wrong but maybe we will discuss with him later.
What i was interested to know is this your theory of Albanians spreading from the Alps as early as 1000-1100 becoming a majority in the low lands between then and 1400.
I asked you to elaborate it in another thread but maybe you forgot to do it. I hope you will find some time.

Kelmendasi
20-02-18, 18:34
V13 or even CTS5856 did not originate in Albania nor it came originally to the rest of the Balkans from there. It only SURVIVED better in the mountain areas of the South Western Balkan during the early Middle ages. Most lowlands along the Danube were almost completely deserted by the old population, and later repopulated either by new migrants from the North and NorthEast or with highlanders who came down later. In the case with the Albanians and Vlach Aromuns it was only in the last few centuries. Some of them settled in the NorthWestern Balkans and it is possible some V13 branches there are brought by them recently. However Bulgarians had some other mountains to hide in like the Balkan and Rhodopes, where other branches survived.
Have you got any actual genetic evidence to back this up or are you going to carry on talking without evidence? The origin of E-V13 from the zone between Montenegro, Serbia and Albania is backed up by the fact that E-V13 reaches it's highest diversity there.

Dibran
20-02-18, 18:58
I think he is wrong but maybe we will discuss with him later.
What i was interested to know is this your theory of Albanians spreading from the Alps as early as 1000-1100 becoming a majority in the low lands between then and 1400.
I asked you to elaborate it in another thread but maybe you forgot to do it. I hope you will find some time.

It is obvious in DNA results. And even in our language. Most of our lineage a resultant of founder effects and bottleneck. spread from a relatively small population 1500 years ago or so. Albanian language also lacks its own maritime vocabulary, and has more latin influence than Greek, which places it roughly north of the Jiricek line.

Proto-Albanians(not to be confused with modern Albanians) are probably largely descended from an Illyrian tribe around Bosnia and Herzegovina that spread with the clans upon their southern migration. Illyrians in Albania were mostly put to the sword by the Romans for their aid of Macedonia, and rebellion against Rome.

The Romans state most of the land was emptied and northern clans fled to the Dinaric Alps. Proto-Albanians most likely come from this clan that migrated later back to the South. It would explain the North West European admixture found in many isolated north-west Albanian Ghegs. Having a more northern and western periphary.

Albanian Ghegs most likely come from this tribe. Even our own oral history says all the major Gheg clans were originally in Bosnia and Herzegovina. This is what leads to Serbian lunacy when they claim Ghegs are Serbs because they migrated from Bosnia.

If Albanians were always in the south along the coastal regions, we should have our own maritime vocabulary, and more loan words due to hellenization of being south of the Jircek line. Also most Ancestral J2b and V13 I thin were found between Croatia and Montenegro. Ghegs most probably descend from Northern Illyrians, from north of the Jiricek line.

Otherwise, what happened to all our Greek loan words? For example, if Albanians were all wiped out but only the "North-East" Albanian dialect and group survived, and then had a expansion and demographic boom, chances are the words commonly used by southern tribes would have been lost, as the northern tribe occupied a mountain chain rather than the lowlands and coastal region.

The most likely probability is Our language is the remnant of one surviving northern Illyrian dialect with a combination of other elements forming the modern Albanian ethnos.

If anyone thinks any one people is a direct continuation of one solitary ethnic group, they are lying to themselves. All modern cultures and peoples arose as a combination of competing cultural elements, with a usually central tribal elite being the backbone of that cultural formation. In the case of modern Albanians that is likely a northern Illyrian dialect. However, it is combined with influence of other converging languages and cultures, and so the resulting mix of that becomes that modern Albanian, which is very different from Proto-Albanian(itself probably vastly different from Illyrian).

Its not a linear progression of development.

Shetop
20-02-18, 19:25
The origin of E-V13 from the zone between Montenegro, Serbia and Albania is backed up by the fact that E-V13 reaches it's highest diversity there.Can you illustrate that highest diversity with some data?

LABERIA
20-02-18, 19:49
It is obvious in DNA results. And even in our language. Most of our lineage a resultant of founder effects and bottleneck. spread from a relatively small population 1500 years ago or so. Albanian language also lacks its own maritime vocabulary, and has more latin influence than Greek, which places it roughly north of the Jiricek line.
Proto-Albanians(not to be confused with modern Albanians) are probably largely descended from an Illyrian tribe around Bosnia and Herzegovina that spread with the clans upon their southern migration. Illyrians in Albania were mostly put to the sword by the Romans for their aid of Macedonia, and rebellion against Rome.
The Romans state most of the land was emptied and northern clans fled to the Dinaric Alps. Proto-Albanians most likely come from this clan that migrated later back to the South. It would explain the North West European admixture found in many isolated north-west Albanian Ghegs. Having a more northern and western periphary.
Albanian Ghegs most likely come from this tribe. Even our own oral history says all the major Gheg clans were originally in Bosnia and Herzegovina. This is what leads to Serbian lunacy when they claim Ghegs are Serbs because they migrated from Bosnia.
If Albanians were always in the south along the coastal regions, we should have our own maritime vocabulary, and more loan words due to hellenization of being south of the Jircek line. Also most Ancestral J2b and V13 I thin were found between Croatia and Montenegro. Ghegs most probably descend from Northern Illyrians, from north of the Jiricek line.
Otherwise, what happened to all our Greek loan words? For example, if Albanians were all wiped out but only the "North-East" Albanian dialect and group survived, and then had a expansion and demographic boom, chances are the words commonly used by southern tribes would have been lost, as the northern tribe occupied a mountain chain rather than the lowlands and coastal region.
The most likely probability is Our language is the remnant of one surviving northern Illyrian dialect with a combination of other elements forming the modern Albanian ethnos.
If anyone thinks any one people is a direct continuation of one solitary ethnic group, they are lying to themselves. All modern cultures and peoples arose as a combination of competing cultural elements, with a usually central tribal elite being the backbone of that cultural formation. In the case of modern Albanians that is likely a northern Illyrian dialect. However, it is combined with influence of other converging languages and cultures, and so the resulting mix of that becomes that modern Albanian, which is very different from Proto-Albanian(itself probably vastly different from Illyrian).
Its not a linear progression of development.
You are talking about many things here. Many of your questions have been explained by scholars, so let's save some time. I was not interested about Illyrian, the founder effects and bottleneck 1.500 years ago, etc. I asked you about this:

What i was interested to know is this your theory of Albanians spreading from the Alps as early as 1000-1100 becoming a majority in the low lands between then and 1400.
This period of time has nothing to do with Illyrians.
I have read many times that you talk about this migration of Albanians from North to South. I am asking exactly to elaborate this theory. And please, some citation from serious scholars are necessary to support this your theory. Oral tradition are stories not history.
BTW, do you know who is the first and undisputed case when a Albanian is mentioned in history?

eastara
20-02-18, 23:39
You're full of it. Do you know how long a century is? it is 100 years. So you mean to tell me Albanian highlanders only populated most of Albanian lands only 300 years ago? Thats worse than the retarded Caucasus theory. Albanians spread out from the Alps in the earlier middle ages, as early as 1000-1100 becoming a majority in the low lands between then and 1400.

Yea, we are supposed to believe your bonkers claim that Albanians only inhabited those lands 300 years ago. Give me a break.

Yes, Albanians spread around the Balkans(especially the lowlands of Serbia and Croatia and Eastern Bulgaria) from their initial mountain homeland only a few hundred years ago. They were even mentioned as a separate ethnicity only around 11th c. They could not have spread the V13 around the whole peninsular as some seem to imply.
When V13 first came to the Balkans is still unclear. However papers on old Thracian remains are coming soon and we will see.

Trojet
21-02-18, 00:07
When V13 first came to the Balkans is still unclear. However papers on old Thracian remains are coming soon and we will see.

Do you happen to have more info on these papers of Thracian remains, like how soon are they supposed to come out, and who is the research being carried by?

DuPidh
21-02-18, 01:07
Yes, Albanians spread around the Balkans(especially the lowlands of Serbia and Croatia and Eastern Bulgaria) from their initial mountain homeland only a few hundred years ago. They were even mentioned as a separate ethnicity only around 11th c. They could not have spread the V13 around the whole peninsular as some seem to imply.
When V13 first came to the Balkans is still unclear. However papers on old Thracian remains are coming soon and we will see.
Should be an acceptable IQ level of people to post here.

Jovialis
21-02-18, 01:21
should be an acceptable iq level of people to post here.

You are now banned due to accumulation of infraction points, and this just put you over.

Enough with the insults!

This goes for everyone.

Dibran
21-02-18, 01:32
Yes, Albanians spread around the Balkans(especially the lowlands of Serbia and Croatia and Eastern Bulgaria) from their initial mountain homeland only a few hundred years ago. They were even mentioned as a separate ethnicity only around 11th c. They could not have spread the V13 around the whole peninsular as some seem to imply.
When V13 first came to the Balkans is still unclear. However papers on old Thracian remains are coming soon and we will see.

Your claim wasn't about V13. Your claim was that Albanians only populated most lands occupied by them in the last 300 years. That is literally vehement ignorance, and I highly doubt its unintentional. God forbid you acknowledge Albanian nativity in the Balkans. But, you expect us to really believe Albanians only occupied their current locations from the 1700s to present?

You're not very bright I am afraid. Albanians are already mentioned in the Southern Balkans practically 700 years earlier than that, but, whatever makes you feel better. Doesn't change the fact you're wrong.

Nik
21-02-18, 02:34
It is obvious in DNA results. And even in our language. Most of our lineage a resultant of founder effects and bottleneck. spread from a relatively small population 1500 years ago or so. Albanian language also lacks its own maritime vocabulary, and has more latin influence than Greek, which places it roughly north of the Jiricek line.

Proto-Albanians(not to be confused with modern Albanians) are probably largely descended from an Illyrian tribe around Bosnia and Herzegovina that spread with the clans upon their southern migration. Illyrians in Albania were mostly put to the sword by the Romans for their aid of Macedonia, and rebellion against Rome.

The Romans state most of the land was emptied and northern clans fled to the Dinaric Alps. Proto-Albanians most likely come from this clan that migrated later back to the South. It would explain the North West European admixture found in many isolated north-west Albanian Ghegs. Having a more northern and western periphary.

Albanian Ghegs most likely come from this tribe. Even our own oral history says all the major Gheg clans were originally in Bosnia and Herzegovina. This is what leads to Serbian lunacy when they claim Ghegs are Serbs because they migrated from Bosnia.

If Albanians were always in the south along the coastal regions, we should have our own maritime vocabulary, and more loan words due to hellenization of being south of the Jircek line. Also most Ancestral J2b and V13 I thin were found between Croatia and Montenegro. Ghegs most probably descend from Northern Illyrians, from north of the Jiricek line.

Otherwise, what happened to all our Greek loan words? For example, if Albanians were all wiped out but only the "North-East" Albanian dialect and group survived, and then had a expansion and demographic boom, chances are the words commonly used by southern tribes would have been lost, as the northern tribe occupied a mountain chain rather than the lowlands and coastal region.

The most likely probability is Our language is the remnant of one surviving northern Illyrian dialect with a combination of other elements forming the modern Albanian ethnos.

If anyone thinks any one people is a direct continuation of one solitary ethnic group, they are lying to themselves. All modern cultures and peoples arose as a combination of competing cultural elements, with a usually central tribal elite being the backbone of that cultural formation. In the case of modern Albanians that is likely a northern Illyrian dialect. However, it is combined with influence of other converging languages and cultures, and so the resulting mix of that becomes that modern Albanian, which is very different from Proto-Albanian(itself probably vastly different from Illyrian).

Its not a linear progression of development.
You seem to settle very quickly for whatever you read and I believe your opinions are prone to drastically change in the future once we know more.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that you choose to take simplistic explanations for granted.

It's true that Albanians were pushed South, but they definitely didn't bring E-V13 from the Alps. But perhaps you meant the Dinaric Alps and even in that case they were already well established in South Albania, as well as being too numerous to have come from ex-Yugoslavia alone. Evidence points to them being very numerous in Epirus already, and Epirus in the wider sense including their settlements in Acarnania and Aetolia.

The Albanian from Albania and coastal Montenegro do not originate from Bosnia or further North, only the Malesia Madhe, Malesia Vogel, and Dukagjin speaks the "Bosnian/Herzegovinian" type, while the rest of the Ghegs speak the mostly local version from where Tosk and Arvanitika derived too, meaning they were all formed there.

About the lack of maritime vocabulary and loanwords, that's like the weakest/useless points anyone can bring. First of all, it's already astonishing how Albanian survived and you ignore the fact that the word for sea, boat, and many others are not Latin. As for the supposedly Latin ones, how do you know Latin and Illyrian didn't share thousands of almost identical words? When you have so many similar tribal names between both sides of the Adriatic then you ought to believe the connection between these peoples was stronger than you thought.

The Albanian words for dog and friend seem like obvious Latin loanwords but we just happen to know they aren't and they're actually Illyrian too. That could be the case for hundreds of others that due to the striking similarity and the Romanization the Latin version prevailed since there wasn't much of a replacement rather than a minor modification of 1 letter or 2 like 's' becoming 'sh' or 'a' becoming 'e', etc.

As for the Greek loanwords, that's even worse as there are already enough Greek and Doric shared words while many could have simply been replaced by Latin ones due to the shifting of power from the Greek trading routes and cultural diffusion to Roman domination, not to mention that the Greeks nearby couldn't keep their own language much anyway (hint: Vlachs).

Genetically speaking, Albanian suffered from war and migration a lot, phenomena that didn't affect much the mountains, leading to an already created refugium of earlier concentrated E-V13, J2b, and R1b to spread around again, so whatever the Roman and Byzantine Empire did to the lowlands and urban centers in terms of population mixing and resettlement, they definitely left mostly as Arvanites and Arbereshe, or remained as Vlachs, Greeks, Slavs, and Albanians.

Nevertheless, the high amount of E-V13 in Peloponnese always intrigued me especially after a Medieval or Ottoman defter stated that in the Northern half of Peloponnese out of 195 villages, 150 were Albanian speaking. I believe there was a lot of E-V13 contribution from Arvanites but only testing more markers in Albanians will show if there's a recent connection between the 2.

LABERIA
21-02-18, 11:41
You seem to settle very quickly for whatever you read and I believe your opinions are prone to drastically change in the future once we know more.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that you choose to take simplistic explanations for granted.

It's true that Albanians were pushed South, but they definitely didn't bring E-V13 from the Alps. But perhaps you meant the Dinaric Alps and even in that case they were already well established in South Albania, as well as being too numerous to have come from ex-Yugoslavia alone. Evidence points to them being very numerous in Epirus already, and Epirus in the wider sense including their settlements in Acarnania and Aetolia.

The Albanian from Albania and coastal Montenegro do not originate from Bosnia or further North, only the Malesia Madhe, Malesia Vogel, and Dukagjin speaks the "Bosnian/Herzegovinian" type, while the rest of the Ghegs speak the mostly local version from where Tosk and Arvanitika derived too, meaning they were all formed there.

About the lack of maritime vocabulary and loanwords, that's like the weakest/useless points anyone can bring. First of all, it's already astonishing how Albanian survived and you ignore the fact that the word for sea, boat, and many others are not Latin. As for the supposedly Latin ones, how do you know Latin and Illyrian didn't share thousands of almost identical words? When you have so many similar tribal names between both sides of the Adriatic then you ought to believe the connection between these peoples was stronger than you thought.

The Albanian words for dog and friend seem like obvious Latin loanwords but we just happen to know they aren't and they're actually Illyrian too. That could be the case for hundreds of others that due to the striking similarity and the Romanization the Latin version prevailed since there wasn't much of a replacement rather than a minor modification of 1 letter or 2 like 's' becoming 'sh' or 'a' becoming 'e', etc.

As for the Greek loanwords, that's even worse as there are already enough Greek and Doric shared words while many could have simply been replaced by Latin ones due to the shifting of power from the Greek trading routes and cultural diffusion to Roman domination, not to mention that the Greeks nearby couldn't keep their own language much anyway (hint: Vlachs).

Genetically speaking, Albanian suffered from war and migration a lot, phenomena that didn't affect much the mountains, leading to an already created refugium of earlier concentrated E-V13, J2b, and R1b to spread around again, so whatever the Roman and Byzantine Empire did to the lowlands and urban centers in terms of population mixing and resettlement, they definitely left mostly as Arvanites and Arbereshe, or remained as Vlachs, Greeks, Slavs, and Albanians.

Nevertheless, the high amount of E-V13 in Peloponnese always intrigued me especially after a Medieval or Ottoman defter stated that in the Northern half of Peloponnese out of 195 villages, 150 were Albanian speaking. I believe there was a lot of E-V13 contribution from Arvanites but only testing more markers in Albanians will show if there's a recent connection between the 2.
I am interested about the part underlined. Can you elaborate it, please?

Jovialis
21-02-18, 12:25
This thread is now closed.