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View Full Version : Should Catalonia re-apply for EU membership if it splits from Spain?



Maciamo
04-10-17, 17:18
I read if Catalonia were to proclaim independence unilaterally in the next few days without the approbation of Madrid, Catalonia would not automatically become a member of the European Union. The logic is that if it splits from a member state of the EU, it would need to re-apply for EU membership, and that probably wouldn't be possible if the Spanish government opposes it.

This, however, does not make any sense. What if the country were to split in two, like Czechoslovakia? Which part would automatically stay in the EU then? The largest? Both? Neither? The one hosting the capital? The EU actually does not have any rule about this kind of situation. What if a much larger part of Spain were to join Catalonia. It could be the Baleares and the Community of Valencia, which are all Catalan-speaking. But they could also add Navarre and Aragon and thus create a new country that matches the former Kingdom of Navarre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Navarre), which comprised all eastern Spain, and existed co-jointly within the Kingdom of Spain from 1492 until 1841, when the Act for the Modification of Fueros made a single kingdom of all Spain.

Spain came into existence as a country by the union of the Kingdom of Castille & Leon with the Kingdom of Navarre (and Aragon), which were themselves unions of two medieval kingdoms. If the modern state were to split along those lines, what part of Spain would still have the right to be called Spain, and would any of them have automatically become members of the EU?

Personally, I think that any EU state that is split into smaller states should automatically stay in the EU. Or else, all the new parts should re-apply. It would be extremely unfair to favour one part over another.

In this case, Catalonia was already an autonomous region (i.e. a state) with its own government and laws. The independence is a smaller step than devolution of power from the central government which took place in 1978. Besides, Catalonia has the largest GRP (gross regional product) within Spain, representing 18.5% of the Spanish GDP. An independent Catalonia would have a higher GDP than Greece or the Czech Republic. It is a big enough chunk of Spain to say that after independence, the rest of the country cannot be called Spain anymore, just like the United Kingdom would cease to exist if Scotland (which is proportionally smaller in terms of GDP of population) declared independence.

If Madrid refuses to grant EU membership to Catalonia, perhaps it would be useful for Catalans to join up with the Basque country, Navarre (which both have higher GDP per capita than Catalonia), as well as Aragon, Valencia and the Baleares to form a Spanish Republic or a Republic of Eastern Spain that is big enough to force the EU to treat both western and eastern entities on equal grounds in terms of EU membership.

If those six regions united, they would have a population of over 15 million (against 25 million for the rest of Spain) and a GDP of 553 billions (against 855 for the rest). Three regions would be Catalan speaking and two Basque speaking. The last region, Aragon, traditionally speaks Aragonese (although mostly in the north today), which is an Occitano-Romance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitano-Romance_languages) language like Catalan, and not an Ibero-Romance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Romance_languages) like (Castillan) Spanish, Leonese, Galician and Portuguese.

ROS
04-10-17, 18:28
At what point did the kingdom of Navarre extend to all of eastern Spain?

bicicleur
04-10-17, 18:54
for the moment the actions of both the separists and those who try to keep Spain unified are not governed by reason, but by emotions
and the EU tries to stay aside out of fear

LeBrok
05-10-17, 06:13
I agree, all seceding provinces, current and future, with population already belonging to EU, should automatically stay in EU. Their EU status and citizenship should not change.

Salento
05-10-17, 15:06
There isn’t any REAL EU!
Just Germany.
Congrats to Deutschland, mission Accomplished!
“My low South Italians IQ conclusion”

Yetos
05-10-17, 23:03
he says that if Catalania declares its independence,
then the new state must start negotiations from the point Zero to enter EU and Eurozone.

http://media.enikos.gr/data/photos/resized/720_539029_240728be22-9d9f62a8956d1678.jpg

Pier Moscovici

EU commisioner

bicicleur
06-10-17, 00:06
he says that if Catalania declares its independence,
then the new state must start negotiations from the point Zero to enter EU and Eurozone.

http://media.enikos.gr/data/photos/resized/720_539029_240728be22-9d9f62a8956d1678.jpg

Pier Moscovici

EU commisioner

I understand that a new member should meet all criteria.
But I don't think Spain should have a right to veto this.
Furthermore I suspect many EU politicians are sceptical, just because they fear seperatism might threaten their own jobs.

berun
06-10-17, 07:35
The EU is not capable to make a law for cases of secession, no matter if there are involved milions of Catalans or Scotts (and Spaniards and Brits!), such people has no right to know their future, we are low class EU citizens, so that commissioners or presidents sometimes say so and so (and who guarantees that they are not paid by X to say so and so). Well, I expect that in 50 years or so 80% of UE citizens will be low class in economy and treated in the same way, without any respect, they will be just taken as ruled subjects with some basic rights, the exploit by international firms will be allowed by law.

LeBrok
06-10-17, 15:52
I think, the worse thing for Catalonia in eyes of Europe and world in general, is that half of Catalonia citizens didn't chose to leave. 40% came to vote and 90% voted for leave. Not enough.

Spain should be forced by EU to allow Cathalonia to do proper and legal referendum.

berun
06-10-17, 19:22
The case is that in Catalonia a 40% is pro, a 30% is against and 20% never votes and has no interest in politics or social wellness, only caring for their pockets.
Of course people against was not going to the referendum because the Spanish government said it was illegal and those voting would be persecuted by law.
A 10-15% of votes were stolen by the police and can't be counted.
A big chunk of voters were not participating by state menaces: Catalans would loss pensions, would be expelled from EU, suppression of Catalan government, banks were menacing to leave (as do now), some generals were commenting to take actions against Catalan government, policemen tried to riot the building of the far-left independentists, etc.
Some voters sure were not going seeing that they would get several beatings, let's say it is low state terrorism. The day of referendum a police helicopter was flying just 200m over my house, as in other cities.
Now it's more clear the proceed: Spanish police was opening private mail to look for polling station members, entered enterprises without juditial permission to request urns, ballots or referendum promotion papers, not founding it the day of the referendum was referendum, so their plans were to riot polling colleges were it was expected to vote Catalan ministers and also riot some 200 little villages with military forces of 30-50 policemen (Guardia Civil is a military force), so that their riots would be allways effective.
Even so a 40-50% voting and risking their faces is a high percentage in a Westerner society, I don't know what would happen in Quebec per example under the same pressure, and I prefer to don't know what percentage of these would use weapons if necessary.

berun
06-10-17, 20:30
The police stoling urns

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2ghutXN2Tlo

as they are in the XIX century they don't know about cellulars and in many little vilages the polling station was advised before the arrival of the police cars so that they concealed the urns and the policemen expended a lot of time finding it. It is so ridicolous that it would make me laugh at it if it wouldn't be the action of a pseudofascist state controling mass media, judges and law to defend their elite interests.

Carlos
14-11-19, 06:41
It is a good idea to join Catalonia: Navarra, the Basque Country, Valencia, the Balearic Islands, then Madrid itself, then Andalusia, the Canary Islands, e.t.c. to the total of the regions and we would have Spain again.