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Angela
04-10-17, 22:37
The authors find a high correlation between "Neanderthal Quotient" and personality disorders.

See:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/darwins-subterranean-world/201710/your-neanderthal-quotient-and-your-personality

"Importantly, this study truly is the first of its kind, and we hardly claim that the methodology is perfect. Our results should be considered a bit preliminary. This said, here are some of the highlights of what we found:People who scored high in NQ were found to be significantly high on the dimensions of:


Social fear (https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/fear)
Sociosexuality (~promiscuity)
Depressive tendencies
Bipolar tendencies
Autistic tendencies

We also found NQ to be negatively related to an index of imaginativeness. Significantly so. (see Table 4 from our paper, below)."

They are by no means the first researchers to trace the snps for these disorders to snps in Neanderthals. There have been a couple of such papers already. So, I don't find that difficult to believe. I would think it's more linked to having the specific snps than just a total quotient, but I don't know.

Jovialis
05-10-17, 00:28
I find it kind of odd they would cite an old study from 2011. Razib Khan places the average NQ between 1%-2%, in a blog (https://blog.insito.me/neander-me-c6b81e337e5f) he published two days ago.

While I've read about the links to depression, and such; I don't agree with this particular conclusion:


We also found NQ to be negatively related to an index of imaginativeness. Significantly so. (see Table 4 from our paper, below).

Considering other sources that indicate they were high in visual learning, and created the first industrial process (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/defy-stereotypes.html).

davef
05-10-17, 01:14
on top of that, you're highly creative and visual, and you turned out Neanderthal in cognition. I suspect Neanderthals would turn out to be much more intelligent and human like as we explore further into their genes (as opposed to what most people wrongly portray them as-a group of ugly gorilla like humanoids who smack each other with clubs and grunt ug ug ug ug uggga wugga)

Ed the Red
05-10-17, 01:39
9377
An image I drew, 23 & me says I have more Neanderthal variants than 97% of the DNA pool hahaha

Jovialis
05-10-17, 03:06
Based on past anthropological work on the nature (https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/environment) of the Neanderthals (e.g., Wynn & Coolidge, 2004), we have some sense of how the Neanderthals behaved. We know that they lived in relatively small groups compared to the groups of Ancestrally Modern Humans (AMHs). We know that they lived mostly with kin and interacted little with non-kin, or strangers. We have reason to believe, based on their tools, that they were not as creative as AMHs. And it seems like they fought with one another a lot, suggesting a generally aggressive and unstable manner.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/darwins-subterranean-world/201710/your-neanderthal-quotient-and-your-personality

Again, I find it peculiar that they would reference a study from 13 years ago to get an idea of Neanderthal behavior.

Especially considering more recent studies:


Neanderthals made and used a diverse set of sophisticated tools, controlled fire, lived in shelters, made and wore clothing, were skilled hunters of large animals and also ate plant foods, and occasionally made symbolic or ornamental objects. There is evidence that Neanderthals deliberately buried their dead and occasionally even marked their graves with offerings, such as flowers. No other primates, and no earlier human species, had ever practiced this sophisticated and symbolic behavior.


http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-fossils/species/homo-neanderthalensis






… The Neanderthal lissoirs are a significant find because they could force archeologists to rewrite the chronology of Paleolithic European humans. According to the researchers associated with the find, the lissoirs suggest either that modern humans arrived in Europe much earlier than believed, imparting their knowledge of tool-making to the resident Neanderthals, or that Neanderthals invented specialized tool-making independently of H. sapiens. A third theory suggested by the team, if proven, could be even more surprising given the long-standing stereotype of our low-browed relatives: perhaps it was the Neanderthal tool-maker who imparted his knowledge to modern humans.

...
“There are sophisticated bone tools that are even older in Africa, for instance,” McPherron said. “Neanderthals were, however, the first in Europe to make specialized bone tools.”

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/neanderthals-made-specialized-bone-tools-and-may-even-have-taught-humans-how-11927/

Genomes being mapped, meaning what exactly? Different tests give different percentages; with newer ones being lower on average. I think the people who conducted this study should consider all of these nuances moving forward.



Putting it all together, we predicted that it would be difficult to be a Neanderthal in this day and age. Specifically, we predicted that those high in NQ would score as having certain problems in social interactions and that they might be anxious and depressed. In our study, about 200 participants, including adults from around the world who had had their genomes mapped, reported their NQ and then completed a battery of psychological surveys for us to test these predictions.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/darwins-subterranean-world/201710/your-neanderthal-quotient-and-your-personality


@Ed the Red
The attachment is invalid.

@davef
Your inbox is full again.

davef
05-10-17, 03:25
Again, I find it peculiar that they would reference a study from 13 years ago to get an idea of Neanderthal behavior.

Especially considering more recent studies:







@Ed the Red
The attachment is invalid.

@davef
Your inbox is full again.

I cleared out a bunch yesterday and haven't gotten new ones since...

davef
05-10-17, 05:50
I wonder if ADHD correlates with Neanderthal ancestry or if it's more likely for someone with this disorder to have significant amounts of Neanderthal. It is speculated that ADHD stems from old hunter-gatherer ancestry that made its way up so to speak to one's genome. If certain, it's ironic that I should be about 70 percent Neolithic farmer going by the new ancient k12 calculator. I'd much rather shoot an arrow through a deer's lungs than spend a day picking beans.

I'm not implying that neanderthals or hunter gatherers are less intelligent, especially since there are numerous individuals with ADHD who are very gifted.

bicicleur
05-10-17, 06:56
as I mentioned elsewhere, Neanderthals were unable to assimilate the blade tool technology developped by modern humans 50 ka and this led to their extinction

judging from the findings excavated in the Denisova cave, I would say that Denisovans wer much more sophisticated then Neanderthals

Maciamo
05-10-17, 07:35
It is rather contradictory that traits like promiscuity and social fear or autism should be found together. They are at opposite ends of the personality scale.

It's also odd that people with autistic tendencies should be associated with lower imaginativeness, when creative geniuses like Michelangelo, Mozart, Beethoven, Mahler, Mark Twain, Van Gogh, Agatha Christie, Steven Spielberg, and visionary scientists/inventors/tech people like Newton, Einstein, Edison or Bill Gates probably all were/are on the autism spectrum (more Asperger than autism for most).

Jovialis
05-10-17, 07:36
This is Razib Khan's take on the study. Like Angela said, it could be something more specific. But considering how the study was put together, I don't believe any of the conclusions.

https://i.imgur.com/j4WbfGX.png

https://i.imgur.com/SfxGQSn.png

//

https://i.imgur.com/zn7rYu6.png

http://ishe.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/HEB_2017_32_3_34-46.pdf

This was the link, but I assume he's talking about this same study. It's no longer found. Here's the link that works
http://ishe.org/human-ethology-bulletin/2017-2/heb-323/using-personal-genome-technology-and-psychometrics-to-study-the-personality-of-the-neanderthals/

//

https://i.imgur.com/3c76t9c.png

Jovialis
05-10-17, 16:32
Taking a look at this guy's past Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/glenn.geher) posts, he doesn't seem very objective to me. Funny how it get's picked up by Newsweek... I suspect this sloppy study is politically motivated.


Importantly, this study truly is the first of its kind, and we hardly claim that the methodology is perfect. Our results should be considered a bit preliminary.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/darwins-subterranean-world/201710/your-neanderthal-quotient-and-your-personality

Quite the understatement. No control for ancestry; referencing old studies; dubious estimates for participant NQ; it seems more like it's totally wrong, and perhaps in bad faith.

Angela
05-10-17, 17:02
as I mentioned elsewhere, Neanderthals were unable to assimilate the blade tool technology developped by modern humans 50 ka and this led to their extinction

judging from the findings excavated in the Denisova cave, I would say that Denisovans wer much more sophisticated then Neanderthals

Yes, I think that's an important clue in terms of the snps in Neanderthals that are linked to lower cognitive development.

As I mentioned above, there are numerous studies which trace snps for depression, autism, schizophrenia and bipolar disorder (along with lower cognitive development and language processing issues) to Neanderthals. I've posted them here on the site before. This was the latest one, published in February of 2017:

http://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(17)30128-9

It was discussed here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33666-Neanderthal-genes-affect-testes-and-brain?highlight=Neanderthals

However, it has also been my understanding that even if two people have the same percent of Neanderthal ancestry, it's not necessarily the same Neanderthal ancestry. In other words, my X% might contain different snps from someone else's even if that person also has X%. That's why even without looking at the methodology I was skeptical.

Still, while the fact that they didn't control for certain ancestry invalidates the percentages reached in that study, it doesn't invalidate the conclusions of the subsequent, more recent papers such as the one above that do find a link between snps we inherited from Neanderthals and certain disorders.

@Maciamo,
Clinical promiscuity as defined by psychologists exhibits co-morbidity with anxiety and depression, the latter two of which are also linked.

Jovialis
05-10-17, 18:51
Yes, I think that's an important clue in terms of the snps in Neanderthals that are linked to lower cognitive development.

As I mentioned above, there are numerous studies which trace snps for depression, autism, schizophrenia and bipolar disorder (along with lower cognitive development and language processing issues) to Neanderthals. I've posted them here on the site before. This was the latest one, published in February of 2017:

http://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(17)30128-9

It was discussed here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33666-Neanderthal-genes-affect-testes-and-brain?highlight=Neanderthals

However, it has also been my understanding that even if two people have the same percent of Neanderthal ancestry, it's not necessarily the same Neanderthal ancestry. In other words, my X% might contain different snps from someone else's even if that person also has X%. That's why even without looking at the methodology I was skeptical.

Still, while the fact that they didn't control for certain ancestry invalidates the percentages reached in that study, it doesn't invalidate the conclusions of the subsequent, more recent papers such as the one above that do find a link between snps we inherited from Neanderthals and certain disorders.

@Maciamo,
Clinical promiscuity as defined by psychologists exhibits co-morbidity with anxiety and depression, the latter two of which are also linked.

While I agree there's plenty of studies that indicate these genes may be linked to certain social disorders, the OT study seems to downplay the trade offs that are found in other studies.

Lower cognitive development in some areas, but perhaps not others.



NIMH researchers have produced the first direct evidence that parts of our brains implicated in mental disorders may be shaped by a “residual echo” from our ancient past. The more a person’s genome carries genetic vestiges of Neanderthals, the more certain parts of his or her brain and skull resemble those of humans’ evolutionary cousins that went extinct 40,000 years ago, says NIMH’s Karen Berman, M.D.

In particular, the parts of our brains that enable us to use tools and visualize and locate objects owe some of their lineage to Neanderthal-derived gene variants that are part of our genomes and affect the shape of those structures – to the extent that an individual harbors the ancient variants. But this may involve trade-offs with our social brain. The evidence from MRI scans suggests that such Neanderthal-derived genetic variation may affect the way our brains work today – and may hold clues to understanding deficits seen in schizophrenia and autism-related disorders, say the researchers.

Berman, Michael Gregory, M.D., of the NIMH Section on Integrative Neuroimaging, and colleagues, report on their magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) study online July 24, 2017, in the journal Scientific Reports.

During their primordial migration out of Africa, ancestors of present-day humans are thought to have interbred with Neanderthals, whose brain characteristics can be inferred from their fossilized skulls. For example, these indicate that Neanderthals had more prominent visual systems than modern humans.

“It’s been proposed that Neanderthals depended on visual-spatial abilities and toolmaking, for survival, more so than on the social affiliation and group activities that typify the success of modern humans – and that Neanderthal brains evolved to preferentially support these visuospatial functions,” Berman explained. “Now we have direct neuroimaging evidence that such trade-offs may still be operative in our brains.”

Might some of us, more than others, harbor Neanderthal-derived gene variants that may bias our brains toward trading sociability for visuospatial prowess – or vice versa? The new study adds support to this possibility by showing how these gene variants influence the structure of brain regions underlying those abilities.

To test this possibility, Gregory and Berman measured the amount of Neanderthal variants in a sample of 221 participants of European ancestry drawn from the NIMH Sibling Study of schizophrenia risk and related it to MRI measures of brain structure.

The new MRI evidence points to a shared gene variant that is likely involved in development of the brain’s visual system. Similarly, Neanderthal variants impacting development of a particular suspect brain area may help to inform cognitive disability seen in certain brain disorders, say the researchers.

For example, in 2012, Berman and colleagues reported on how genetic variation shapes the structure and function of a brain area called the Insula in the autism-related disorder Williams Syndrome. People with this rare genetic disorder are overly sociable and visuo-spatially impaired – conspicuously opposite to the hypothesized Neanderthal propensities and more typical cases on the autism spectrum. Mice in which a gene affected by Williams syndrome is experimentally deleted show increased separation anxiety. And just last week, researchers showed that the same genetic variability also appears to explain why dogs are friendlier than wolves.

Berman and Gregory’s team is currently working on further studies documenting the pivotal role of this suspect genetic variation in shaping the insula and related social brain circuitry.

https://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science-news/2017/our-brains-harbor-residual-echo-of-neanderthal-genes.shtml

Perhaps the higher social ability of ancient modern humans helped them organize tribes which led to the displacement of the neanderthals. I don't think it was because neanderthals lacked creativity, and were unable to produce adequate tools for survival. Especially since neanderthals had a higher degree of visual-spatial intelligence. This is why I think the lack of "imaginativeness" is an outrageous claim.

Angela
05-10-17, 19:57
Jovialis: While I agree there's plenty of studies that indicate these genes may be linked to certain social disorders, the OT study seems to downplay the trade offs that are found in other studies.

Lower cognitive development in some areas, but perhaps not others.Perhaps, although if that's the case it's hard to see why they couldn't adopt more sophisticated blade technology.

Perhaps the higher social ability of ancient modern humans helped them organize tribes which led to the displacement of the neanderthals. I don't think it was because neanderthals lacked creativity, and were unable to produce adequate tools for survival. Especially since neanderthals had a higher degree of visual-spatial intelligence. This is why I think the lack of "imaginativeness" is an outrageous claim.







I do think social skill is probably another area where modern humans had more abilities, and this leads to more cooperation, which leads to more societal advancement.

The other important area might be language processing skills. It's much easier to pass on knowledge or technology if one can express oneself verbally in a more sophisticated manner.

Clearly, some Neanderthal traits were adaptive, and that's why they've been retained. It's harder to understand why the ones linked to mental disorders haven't yet been successfully purged from the gene set. Perhaps it's because these disorders don't impact survival directly, or at least people can survive past the period when they mate?

The auto-immune disease linkage is interesting as well. Some of the immune system genes are very positive, but in some people they trigger an over-response, leading to numerous autoimmune diseases.

I don't quite understand the linkage with tobacco addiction, except that nicotine both calms anxiety and increases concentration and focus. It's a quite remarkable drug in that sense.

davef
05-10-17, 20:20
Yeah, the addiction could stem from the need to control symptoms of anxiety and ADHD.

In my case, caffeine often makes me less jittery and at times almost put me to sleep....but ironically, focus gets a huge drive

Jovialis
05-10-17, 20:22
I do think social skill is probably another area where modern humans had more abilities, and this leads to more cooperation, which leads to more societal advancement.

The other important area might be language processing skills. It's much easier to pass on knowledge or technology if one can express oneself verbally in a more sophisticated manner.

Clearly, some Neanderthal traits were adaptive, and that's why they've been retained. It's harder to understand why the ones linked to mental disorders haven't yet been successfully purged from the gene set. Perhaps it's because these disorders don't impact survival directly, or at least people can survive past the period when they mate?

The auto-immune disease linkage is interesting as well. Some of the immune system genes are very positive, but in some people they trigger an over-response, leading to numerous autoimmune diseases.

I don't quite understand the linkage with tobacco addiction, except that nicotine both calms anxiety and increases concentration and focus. It's a quite remarkable drug in that sense.

I wonder if some of those disorder traits may even have been retained to be sort of an X-factor, in a social society. Perhaps social fear could be applicable in a larger society for survival; having high trust in the intentions of others isn't always wise.

Higher IQ individuals are generally less happy with high degrees of socializing, at least according to this study (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/bjop.12181/epdf?referrer_access_token=17LSbmG7VAbNSIuOix-PMota6bR2k8jH0KrdpFOxC656jY8Tw-L3ckZc33iG8sZqkL4UaG9VIQQYXj0aUuZ48pd-T0u5SNhjvj5xjuEX1VTupqyhUR6kmWezyUX0w-Fz8gxdO8OFCN94Op0Nk7SN65aFaER8RYgZS0AQJeQEb9rNAWn-rp8wOCLjfhmjLWblwtIvXrbhAh7o4Zyp4FU7bL5wLIl7VDOYlN 2QBk_F6TB-oqcOhcDmP2wDRZkkBtwz).

https://i.imgur.com/Fsq22UI.png

Angela
05-10-17, 21:43
I wonder if some of those disorder traits may even have been retained to be sort of an X-factor, in a social society. Perhaps social fear could be applicable in a larger society for survival; having high trust in the intentions of others isn't always wise.

Higher IQ individuals are generally less happy with high degrees of socializing, at least according to this study (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/bjop.12181/epdf?referrer_access_token=17LSbmG7VAbNSIuOix-PMota6bR2k8jH0KrdpFOxC656jY8Tw-L3ckZc33iG8sZqkL4UaG9VIQQYXj0aUuZ48pd-T0u5SNhjvj5xjuEX1VTupqyhUR6kmWezyUX0w-Fz8gxdO8OFCN94Op0Nk7SN65aFaER8RYgZS0AQJeQEb9rNAWn-rp8wOCLjfhmjLWblwtIvXrbhAh7o4Zyp4FU7bL5wLIl7VDOYlN 2QBk_F6TB-oqcOhcDmP2wDRZkkBtwz).

https://i.imgur.com/Fsq22UI.png

That's certainly a possibility as well. I think the scientists are just at the beginning of figuring all this out. It's also good to keep in mind that these disorders may be polygenic in nature, so this would only be one variant among perhaps many.

Ed the Red
14-10-17, 14:08
I should let 23 & me study me.
I love how the Neanderthal apocalypse t.v. show shows what are considered common human genotypes as African. When in fact modern africans have little to NO Neanderthal DNA. Just consider what spawned from Europe if you haven't already. Sure alot of war but in actuality alot of original culture. What haplogroup do you think is associated with Neanderthal? The I* seems like a good candidate. But Celts don't posses alot of I* or its subclade. They were the first barbarian expansion to Europe and they are dominant R1b.
Blood will solve these mysteries much like it can solve a crime scene. It just doesnt lie, Iam dominant R1b with more Neanderthal than 97% of documented users of 23&me. My next dominant genome is Eastern European and the percentage is close to the R1b. So maybe I want know what gene the Neanderthal is dominant unless I have my mother and father tested. I do think that the Neanderthal is strong in Asia though. Much by the characteristics of Asians. Low body hair, recessed chin, low stature. Is there anyone with dominant Asian that scores high in Neanderthal in here? Don't forget about the red headed Tocharian mummies that travelled to Asia(can't remember all details, but know they are present) . The Indo European s were equipped with a venturous spirit. They did Conquer Europe with successive waves of tribes. Some that will forever remain in antiquity, until truth is spoken. But blood is the indicator of the past. Embrace your culture! For in this day it will try to be stripped from under your nose. It is now a global community! Even though war brought us here. We were made to evol that is our purpose. Love and change what you can by example, that will be your participation in this life.

Ed the Red
14-10-17, 14:18
We are all here now, it doesn't matter how we arrived here as much as the time is now to change anything we don't agree with. We all were given traits to evolve our species in different circumstances. So it's time to learn and move on. We have different traits that made us all adapt to our environment, and we hold the key to solve the problem. So why aren't we, is it selfishness! Probably, Do we have the ability to change, or better yet do we have the courage to change? Because that is what it will most likely take. All you have to do is give respect to those before you that toiled the land for a better life. And now we're basically exploiting it. There is a solution!

Ed the Red
14-10-17, 14:37
Accept that we are different, but also embrace it because one mindset doesn't solve problems as well as different point of views. Get back to your roots that brought you here. And it's time to work together to solve the real problems of this day and age. Too many people with self indulgence on the mind when in reality we can change the future for our next generation. We can all agree on the things that keep us from evloving. Who's gonna do it, nobody is above anyone if you've all arrived at the same place. Well guess what that's exactly where we are. All have the ability to experience the same outcome. How did the genomes pass through the centuries? It seems that the greedy and selfish were responsible for furthering genomes, and maybe they were but as culture grows together now on a worldwide scale what is your motivation. Mine is to start a new dawn, and appreciate we are all different, but we all lived a basic common existence to get here. We took care of those that were close to us, and valued to see a growth in society. So I have my culture set, do you have yours? If we disagree on the way then we disagree, that's fine. But I will always respect that we both came to the same table to discuss things.

Ed the Red
14-10-17, 14:50
I cherish my heritage and we all should. Maybe our idea of what is reality is only what we have hoped to be the outcome. When in reality the truth is completely different. But what I know is now. And if we are on the verge of destroying it a new mentality will evolve in response to it. Happy evolving to all, who will posses the dominant gene in the end.
Most likely Neanderthal was passed through mtdna by the way haha. As Indo European tribes spread a new culture across the globe.

Ed the Red
14-10-17, 15:35
Neanderthals possess a bigger occiput as well which deals with color and I think space variation, go figure