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Angela
10-10-17, 23:01
See:
https://www.mpg.de/11535538/max-planck-harvard-research-center

"Scientists from the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History in Jena and the Initiative for the Science of the Human Past at Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts, are collaborating in a new Research Center devoted to the archaeological and scientific study of the ancient Mediterranean. "

"The most up-to-date genetic research methods are combined with established approaches of archaeologists and historians. This closes the gap that still exists between the natural sciences and the humanities when it comes to researching great questions of human history,” says Max Planck Society President Martin Stratmann."

It's about time, but I hope they consult people other than German and British and American experts.

davef
10-10-17, 23:19
Whatever leads to a spike in anti depressant prescriptions among nordicists. Pharma companies won it big after the Egyptian and Mycenaean papers!

Seriously though, sounds interesting

Angela
11-10-17, 04:43
This series of talks was given today and is available on youtube. It features, among others, David Reich, Iosif Lazaridis, and Johannes Krause.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=c-vqlWhAPs8

If you click on cc there are English subtitles, but they're rather small.

It looks daunting because it's over two hours, but these were the only segments that I found interesting. Although most of what they say is known to those who have read the relevant papers, they do clarify some points, so I highly recommend listening to them.

David Reich starts at 36 minutes talking about the Lazaridis paper on the ancient Near East, and goes on to discuss the Beakers at 41 minutes it. He clarifies some things from the Olalde paper.

Lazaridis begins at 60 minutes and is a model of clarity, with some great graphs for people relatively new to this discipline, as some of the audience undoubtedly were. He subtly addresses some of the nonsense objections from archaeologists about why they called these samples Mycenaeans and Minoans. He then goes on to address the strangely high FST of the southern Italian sample, and no, there's nothing strange about the genetics of southern Italy. (Maybe he reads us? Wouldn't that be great?) As we had proposed, fst is highly affected by drift and this population may be a highly isolated, highly drifted population. The most interesting part of his talk was when he addressed whether the Bronze Age arrival which created the Mycenaean genetic population when they mingled with the Minoans came from the steppe or from the area which is now Armenia. He shows some graphs I don't remember seeing in the paper. Their conclusion is that they can't yet tell. (They might know, but are in the preliminary stages of the analysis, or they're waiting for the Caucasus paper to come out.)

Krause then gave a very interesting talk on pandemics which started at 1:32. The most interesting part of the talk was the section on the pre-historic plague. The oldest and most basal form was found on the steppe north of the Caucasus from 5250-4350 years before present. It spread in both directions from there, reaching Germany by 4346-4098 before present, and earlier east of that. He didn't need to tell me that the map of spread and the dating was almost exactly that of the spread of the Indo-European languages, down to the back migration from near Corded Ware back out east. The strange thing is that it wasn't Bubonic plague, which leaves either Septicemia or Pneumatic plague as the forms of spread. The last is the worst option as you just need to be near someone who has it and sneezes, and you could be dead in three days. He links the various forms to the end of the Roman Empire, perhaps the crash of the Bronze Age Near East, and, of course, the death of half of Europe during the Middle Ages, the latter of which has also been traced to near the steppe, the Crimea to be exact. He omitted the final collapse of Old Europe, which seems to be another victory for this bacterium. Forget the horse, this was what the IEs brought with them at least to some places which may have been the coup de grace.

davef
11-10-17, 05:30
"He subtly addresses some of the nonsense objections from archaeologists about why they called these samples Mycenaeans and Minoans."

Why were they objecting?

Angela
11-10-17, 15:25
"He subtly addresses some of the nonsense objections from archaeologists about why they called these samples Mycenaeans and Minoans."

Why were they objecting?

It was typical nonsense from a certain type of archaeologist who just can't accept that ancient dna is going to change their discipline.

How do we know what cultures they were from? Oh, I don't know, maybe read the Supplement and see the dates, context, artifacts.

These are names given in a bygone era, just constructs, they don't mean anything. Yes, they are, but that's how they're commonly known. Call them Bronze Age mainland Greeks and Bronze Age Cretans if you like, but it doesn't change anything.

davef
11-10-17, 16:28
I would ask them where would we expect to find Mycenaeans then?

LeBrok
11-10-17, 17:30
A great lecture to remind and consolidate what we know so far.
Its part about evolution of the plague was fascinating. From non bubonic strains before 4kya in the Steppe, to bubonic and highly virulent later on throughout in Europe. Existence of today's strains, even in America, and help of hygiene and technology keeping it at bay today. It is interesting that certain strain of bubonic plague confirms movement of Bronze Age population from Central Europe to Central Asia where they took part in ethnogenesis of Sintashta and Andronovo.

IronSide
11-10-17, 18:54
Krause then gave a very interesting talk on pandemics which started at 1:32. The most interesting part of the talk was the section on the pre-historic plague. The oldest and most basal form was found on the steppe north of the Caucasus from 5250-4350 years before present. It spread in both directions from there, reaching Germany by 4346-4098 before present, and earlier east of that. He didn't need to tell me that the map of spread and the dating was almost exactly that of the spread of the Indo-European languages, down to the back migration from near Corded Ware back out east. The strange thing is that it wasn't Bubonic plague, which leaves either Septicemia or Pneumatic plague as the forms of spread. The last is the worst option as you just need to be near someone who has it and sneezes, and you could be dead in three days. He links the various forms to the end of the Roman Empire, perhaps the crash of the Bronze Age Near East, and, of course, the death of half of Europe during the Middle Ages, the latter of which has also been traced to near the steppe, the Crimea to be exact. He omitted the final collapse of Old Europe, which seems to be another victory for this bacterium. Forget the horse, this was what the IEs brought with them at least to some places which may have been the coup de grace. Well, that changed my perspective on the spread of IE languages, learned something.

Pax Augusta
11-10-17, 19:04
He then goes on to address the strangely high FST of the southern Italian sample, and no, there's nothing strange about the genetics of southern Italy. (Maybe he reads us? Wouldn't that be great?) As we had proposed, fst is highly affected by drift and this population may be a highly isolated, highly drifted population.

I saw that he answered a question. Who did the question?

I appreciated Lazaridis's speech. Not only about this.

Angela
11-10-17, 20:14
I saw that he answered a question. Who did the question?

I appreciated Lazaridis's speech. Not only about this.

I couldn't tell if it was someone from the audience or one of his fellow speakers. He has a very nice, gentle way about him so his answers didn't come across as impatient or condescending. As I said, and as one might imagine from his papers, he's also remarkably clear and simplifies the material for others. Also quite measured and cautious. He'd make a great teacher.

@Ironside,
In a way, this parallels what happened in the New World. It makes it much easier to prevail over vast areas if you bring pestilence with you. It just occurred to me to wonder whether the exodus from the steppe was in part an attempt to get away from it. Instead, they brought it with them if that's the case, and it would be quite an irony.

Far be it from me to argue with Johannes Krause, but he makes a point of saying these communicable diseases came from the domestication of animals, but for the worst of them, the plague, animals like marmosets or perhaps squirrels were the hosts.

bicicleur
12-10-17, 07:47
Lazaridis begins at 60 minutes and is a model of clarity, with some great graphs for people relatively new to this discipline, as some of the audience undoubtedly were. He subtly addresses some of the nonsense objections from archaeologists about why they called these samples Mycenaeans and Minoans. the northern model is a possible explanation for the language shift in Mycenians, the eastern model not

Fire Haired14
12-10-17, 07:57
Whatever leads to a spike in anti depressant prescriptions among nordicists. Pharma companies won it big after the Egyptian and Mycenaean papers!When was the last time you saw a Nordicists poster? Nordicism isn't much of thing in the genetics-history sphere outside of alternative websites. And in case you think Davidski is a Nordicists, he's a Polish/R1a-centrist not a Nordicism, two different things. Anyways, his ethnocentrism doesn't prevent him from being objective or posting good content. He isn't a supremcist, he just likes to praise his own ancestry and doesn't care how insensitive some people might think that is.

bicicleur
12-10-17, 07:57
Krause then gave a very interesting talk on pandemics which started at 1:32. The most interesting part of the talk was the section on the pre-historic plague. The oldest and most basal form was found on the steppe north of the Caucasus from 5250-4350 years before present. It spread in both directions from there, reaching Germany by 4346-4098 before present, and earlier east of that. He didn't need to tell me that the map of spread and the dating was almost exactly that of the spread of the Indo-European languages, down to the back migration from near Corded Ware back out east. The strange thing is that it wasn't Bubonic plague, which leaves either Septicemia or Pneumatic plague as the forms of spread. The last is the worst option as you just need to be near someone who has it and sneezes, and you could be dead in three days. He links the various forms to the end of the Roman Empire, perhaps the crash of the Bronze Age Near East, and, of course, the death of half of Europe during the Middle Ages, the latter of which has also been traced to near the steppe, the Crimea to be exact. He omitted the final collapse of Old Europe, which seems to be another victory for this bacterium. Forget the horse, this was what the IEs brought with them at least to some places which may have been the coup de grace.I'm sorry, but this explanation is to simple to be true.1/ I don't know of any population expanding because of being infected by a deadly disease. It takes other qualities to do that.2/ The European neolithic population crashed 500 years prior to the corded ware expansion.Probably the plague expanded on the back of expanding populations, but it was not the cause of the expansion. And those expansions need not to be exclusively IE.And we don't know how lethal this prehistoric plague actualy was. No proof of sudden death of whole populations have been found and no mass graves.

berun
12-10-17, 11:00
hum, the picture about the IE expansion would change a lot: from musculous warriors driving golden chariots with their long hairs weaving into the wind, to surviving beggars flying from dying villages expanding the death all over Europe?

davef
12-10-17, 12:10
When was the last time you saw a Nordicists poster? Nordicism isn't much of thing in the genetics-history sphere outside of alternative websites. And in case you think Davidski is a Nordicists, he's a Polish/R1a-centrist not a Nordicism, two different things. Anyways, his ethnocentrism doesn't prevent him from being objective or posting good content. He isn't a supremcist, he just likes to praise his own ancestry and doesn't care how insensitive some people might think that is.
I'm sure nordicists on alt websites read these things as well. I know I do as I'm a nordicist by and large. My family is from the northern mountains of Norway and if I had the means, I would have every Southern European, Jew, and Middle Easterner sent away to camps. And in response to anyone who would ever have the nerve to plead "but davef, the ancient Greeks and Romans built civilization with their scientific and political innovations" its time to learn a little history. The Greeks and Romans weren't the short ape like grunts you see residing in the nations where their empires once stood, they were 7 ft tall on average with glowing blue eyes, hair as blonde as a haystack, and went extinct due to lacking immunity to the diseases their slaves carried.
To those who are new to me, that was sarcasm ;).

IronSide
12-10-17, 12:27
the northern model is a possible explanation for the language shift in Mycenians, the eastern model not Why not the eastern model ?? I think it still has some merit, I argued for the eastern model here https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page24?p=518111&viewfull=1#post518111

Both are possible, but in the case of the northern model, you need to explain the middle bronze age destruction as well as the relation between Armenian and Greek.

halfalp
12-10-17, 13:28
I dont get a lot of reply, seems very communiste-like for me... Mythology of celts, germans, aryans, greeks... the warfare is not an idealised romantism that those little peasant tell to there childs for rassure their ego... Of course we can clearly see in Archeology and i dont understand why genetist try to go in archeologist territory, because scandinavian battle axe for instence, how do you explain its purpose with genetic, dont be so silly people. Now, the warfare-like culture coming with indo-europeans is just not the only purpose of is succes in europe and parts of asia. Like do you really think that a new genetic study making a correlation between indo-european spread and some kind of plague, gonna replace all archeology, and reconstructed mythology... I'm sorry, but i noticed, if a lot of people on Eupedia are not Nordicists, like some want to agree of. There is a lot of destructive people, who tried to just annihilate previous ideas for their " pensée unique ". Please people, just, dont try to create an history with your own ideological views...

bicicleur
12-10-17, 14:20
Why not the eastern model ?? I think it still has some merit, I argued for the eastern model here https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page24?p=518111&viewfull=1#post518111Both are possible, but in the case of the northern model, you need to explain the middle bronze age destruction as well as the relation between Armenian and Greek.you're right, I was confused because in the video the same colouring for Iran/Caucasus was used as for Armenianwhat does the eastern model explain about the middle bronze age destruction? what do you mean by middle bronze age destruction? as for Armenian and Greek, they probably have a common ancestor, there need not to be a migration from Greece to Armenia or from Armenia to Greece, allthough both are possible

IronSide
12-10-17, 14:42
@bicicleurI explained it in the link I provided.

Destruction

Archaeological evidence shows that the cities of Erzerum, Sivas, Pulur Huyuk near Baiburt, Kultepe near Hafik, and Maltepe near Sivas were destroyed during the Middle Bronze Age. The great trading city of Kanesh (Level II) was also destroyed. From there in the hill country between Halys the destruction layers from this time tell the same story. Karaoglan, Bitik, Polatli and Gordion were burnt, as well as Etiyokusu and Cerkes. Further west near the Dardanelles the two large mounds of Korpruoren and Tavsanli, west of Kutahya, show the same signs of being destroyed.
The destruction even crossed into Europe in what is now Bulgaria. The migration brought an end to Bulgaria's Early Bronze Age, with archaeological evidence showing that the Yunacite, Salcutza, and Esero centers had a sudden mass desertion during this time.[1]

Into Greece

From the Dardanelles, the refugee invaders moved into mainland Greece, and the Peloponnese saw burnt and abandoned cities on par with the much later Dorian invasion which destroyed the Mycenaean civilization.[1] At this time, 1900 BC, destruction layers can be found at southern Greek sites like Orchomenos, Eutresis (de), Hagios Kosmas, Raphina, Apesokari, Korakou, Zygouries, Tiryns, Asine, Malthi and Asea. Many other sites are deserted, e.g. Yiriza, Synoro, Ayios Gerasimos, Kophovouni, Makrovouni, Palaiopyrgos, etc. This destruction across Greece also coincided with the arrival of a new culture that had no connection with the Early Helladic civilization, who were the original inhabitants.[1] Northern Greece escaped destruction, as well as southern Anatolia, which during this time showed no disturbances.[1]

bicicleur
12-10-17, 15:24
@IronSidethat is a possibilityI suppose Yamna R1b-Z2103 got dispersed under pressure of the Sintashta and Catacomb R1a-Z93 expansionNote that R1b-Z2103 has been found in both Vucedol culture and LBA Armenia. R1b-Z2103 may be the common ancestor of Greek and Armenian.Urartu was multi-ethnic and multi-lingual - just like the Hitite empire.The official language was Hurrite.But during a dynastic switch in the iron age the Armenian language appeared.Armenian was probably spoken in Urartu long before that, but as a secondary language.

berun
12-10-17, 15:43
No, Armenian wasn't there, Urartian place-names have not evolved along Armenian's phonetic characteristics.

Angela
12-10-17, 17:14
the northern model is a possible explanation for the language shift in Mycenians, the eastern model not
I don't see why that's necessarily so. There are linguists who propose that some of the Indo-European languages came down through the Caucasus, including Hittite.

It wouldn't have been Armenian speakers who arrived. The Greek speakers would just have come from the same general area.
I could very well see them both carrying Z-2103.

I don't know if the eastern hypothesis for the Greeks is the correct one, but I certainly think it's possible given what we know so far.

People, I think the problem with the type is with our site. Go to settings and change from the highest setting to the third one down. I went looking for something in settings because my other output was fine even after the Windows upgrade.

Angela
12-10-17, 18:32
Bicicleur, I don't think anyone has proposed that the bringing of plague was the only cause for the advance of the steppe people into Europe. I certainly haven't and wouldn't propose any such thing. It would be just one of many factors, as the bringing of measles, mumps, small pox and other diseases to the New World wasn't the only factor in the success of the Europeans. I don't think anyone could deny it was a huge factor however.

I also don't know why you would expect lots of remains from people who died of disease. Half of Europe died of plague in the Middle Ages but the remains in the known plague pits don't equal that number of victims, and many of the pits are only being discovered now. Plus, the same argument could be made if the farmers died of starvation caused by climate change or were killed by the newcomers. Where are those mounds of skeletons? Yet it's clear that something dire happened to a lot of the farmers, whatever the cause.

Furthermore, could you provide me with the dating you're using for the first contact between the farmers and the people of the steppe, and what particular group of farmers and the date you're using for the collapse?

From David Anthony:
" people from the steppes migrated to the fringes of and even into Old Europe, just before it collapsed. So there was a phase of intense interaction that involved people from the steppes immigrating into territories that had been occupied by Old European farmers. These steppe people seem to have been enriched by the contact, but we don’t know exactly how. They could have been looting; they could have been raiding. But the work has not really been done to answer that question in detail.

What has happened is that we’ve been accumulating radiocarbon dates, but we need a lot of radiocarbon dates to answer this question. The great mass of radiocarbon dates now available have clarified the suddenness of the shift. But an explanation for the shift is going to depend on whether it was a sudden change or whether there was a slow evolution toward a new pattern. Those two different possibilities have been unresolved and argued about until recently, when we’ve collected enough radiocarbon dates so that, at least as far as I’m concerned, we have the evidence to say it was a sudden collapse."

He's not mentioning the opposite movement, which was the movement of farmers onto the fringes of the steppe, which has been well documented.

This is just one such interface:
"Both hunter-gatherers and early farmers were attracted to the forest-steppe. They came face to face in the forest-steppe of the East Carpathian piedmont, northwest of the Black Sea, about 5800–5600 b.c.
It was a meeting that utterly changed both ways of life because it provided the means for humanity to profit from the Eurasian grasslands: domesticated cattle and sheep. Cattle and sheep were grass processors. They soon spread into plains that formerly were grazed only by wild horses and antelope, and they converted grass into leather, milk, yogurt, cheese, meat, marrow, and bone—the foundation for life and wealth. The steppe region began to witness the emergence of societies committed to stock-breeding while the forest-steppe northwest of the Black Sea remained the home of increasingly prosperous and productive mixed farmers. An economic-cultural frontier formed between them. It remained the most clearly defined and contrastive cultural frontier in prehistoric Europe for about twenty-three hundred years, 5600–3300 b.c."
http://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/farming-frontier-southern-steppes

As for my comment about the steppe people fleeing from the disease, that was my speculation presented for discussion, not something proposed by Krause.
I do think, though, that it's more than possible that the steppe people carried this disease with them wherever they went. The map of spread of the forms and the dates make that rather incontrovertible. It may not have been as virulent for them. Again, the history of the New World is a parallel. The Europeans carried smallpox with them, for example. It was fatal for many of them, but it was far more fatal for the native peoples. In certain areas the latter were totally wiped out.

It's true we don't know how the earlier variant of plague was spread. That requires more research. If it was pneumonic, that is even worse than the bubonic version. Plus, even the bubonic form was present in the steppe by around 2000 BC.

bicicleur
12-10-17, 19:37
Bicicleur, I don't think anyone has proposed that the bringing of plague was the only cause for the advance of the steppe people into Europe. I certainly haven't and wouldn't propose any such thing. It would be just one of many factors, as the bringing of measles, mumps, small pox and other diseases to the New World wasn't the only factor in the success of the Europeans. I don't think anyone could deny it was a huge factor however. I also don't know why you would expect lots of remains from people who died of disease. Half of Europe died of plague in the Middle Ages but the remains in the known plague pits don't equal that number of victims, and many of the pits are only being discovered now. Plus, the same argument could be made if the farmers died of starvation caused by climate change or were killed by the newcomers. Where are those mounds of skeletons? Yet it's clear that something dire happened to a lot of the farmers, whatever the cause. Furthermore, could you provide me with the dating you're using for the first contact between the farmers and the people of the steppe, and what particular group of farmers and the date you're using for the collapse?From David Anthony:" people from the steppes migrated to the fringes of and even into Old Europe, just before it collapsed. So there was a phase of intense interaction that involved people from the steppes immigrating into territories that had been occupied by Old European farmers. These steppe people seem to have been enriched by the contact, but we don’t know exactly how. They could have been looting; they could have been raiding. But the work has not really been done to answer that question in detail. What has happened is that we’ve been accumulating radiocarbon dates, but we need a lot of radiocarbon dates to answer this question. The great mass of radiocarbon dates now available have clarified the suddenness of the shift. But an explanation for the shift is going to depend on whether it was a sudden change or whether there was a slow evolution toward a new pattern. Those two different possibilities have been unresolved and argued about until recently, when we’ve collected enough radiocarbon dates so that, at least as far as I’m concerned, we have the evidence to say it was a sudden collapse."He's not mentioning the opposite movement, which was the movement of farmers onto the fringes of the steppe, which has been well documented. This is just one such interface:"Both hunter-gatherers and early farmers were attracted to the forest-steppe. They came face to face in the forest-steppe of the East Carpathian piedmont, northwest of the Black Sea, about 5800–5600 b.c.It was a meeting that utterly changed both ways of life because it provided the means for humanity to profit from the Eurasian grasslands: domesticated cattle and sheep. Cattle and sheep were grass processors. They soon spread into plains that formerly were grazed only by wild horses and antelope, and they converted grass into leather, milk, yogurt, cheese, meat, marrow, and bone—the foundation for life and wealth. The steppe region began to witness the emergence of societies committed to stock-breeding while the forest-steppe northwest of the Black Sea remained the home of increasingly prosperous and productive mixed farmers. An economic-cultural frontier formed between them. It remained the most clearly defined and contrastive cultural frontier in prehistoric Europe for about twenty-three hundred years, 5600–3300 b.c."http://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/farming-frontier-southern-steppesAs for my comment about the steppe people fleeing from the disease, that was my speculation presented for discussion, not something proposed by Krause.I do think, though, that it's more than possible that the steppe people carried this disease with them wherever they went. The map of spread of the forms and the dates make that rather incontrovertible. It may not have been as virulent for them. Again, the history of the New World is a parallel. The Europeans carried smallpox with them, for example. It was fatal for many of them, but it was far more fatal for the native peoples. In certain areas the latter were totally wiped out. It's true we don't know how the earlier variant of plague was spread. That requires more research. If it was pneumonic, that is even worse than the bubonic version. Plus, even the bubonic form was present in the steppe by around 2000 BC.collapse of neolithic northwestern and central Europehttps://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3486that would have been some 5.3 ka, some 500 years before corded ware expanded into eastern and central Europe, and also before the plague was reported in this areaI think it is worthwile to do more research on the spread of this prehistoric plague, but what we know now is based upon this 1 study and is very little.The Mongols are sometimes acused to have brought the plague to Europe in the 13th century. But it was certainly not noticable while they were conquering and slaughtering and burning down all these cities.

bicicleur
12-10-17, 19:49
If I recall well David Anthony claims the 1st invasion into the Balkans was 6.2-6 ka. It would have been a period of cold and drought and IE tribes tried to find shelter for their cattle in the Danube delta. Also the crops of the farmers would have been affected by the climate change.This would have caused disputes between the IE and the local farmers which over time led to the burning down of 600 neolithic villages. After that lifestyle in the Balkans would have changed with more emphasis on herding compared to farming. (Cernavoda culture)The common ancestor of the prehistoric plague is only 5.5 ka.I can imagine that those sedentary isolated farming communities who had to be self-sufficient could be very vulnerable even to small climate changes which happened very often. We tend to think that climate is stable, but it isn't.

bicicleur
12-10-17, 19:58
No, Armenian wasn't there, Urartian place-names have not evolved along Armenian's phonetic characteristics.That would mean that the Armenians arrived in Armenia only in the sixth century BC, with the Orontid Dynasty. All the kings before were Hurrite Urartian. That seems unlikely to me as R1b-Z2103 was already found in LBA Armenia.

bicicleur
12-10-17, 20:12
People, I think the problem with the type is with our site. Go to settings and change from the highest setting to the third one down. I went looking for something in settings because my other output was fine even after the Windows upgrade.Angela, can you explain a bit more? It is very annoying and I don't have a clue how to solve it.

Angela
12-10-17, 20:18
Bicicleur, Maciamo posted he's aware of the problem and trying to fix it. In the meantime you can at least fix the paragraphing by clicking on forum actions in the blue header above. Then go to general setting. Scroll all the way down to messaging interface. Click on standard editor. It's not perfect as you can't quote or put in attachments, but it's better than nothing while we wait for Maciamo to fix it.

bicicleur
12-10-17, 20:29
let's see
line 1
line 2
that's better indeed

Angela
12-10-17, 20:39
Bicicleur,
I have no problem with the proposal that climate change might have severely weakened farming cultures in central Europe. I just don't understand why you are so adamant that disease might not also have been a factor.

As for David Anthony, not that I think he is the be all and end all, his latest statement, which I posted above, certainly doesn't sound as if he necessarily sees this as an abrupt change brought about by invasion. He's very cautious about it.

These are some screen shots from the talk. From the samples they've tested, these are some of the dates and locations. Now that they know what to look for, I think it would be very beneficial to test all the ancient samples we have for that general period and see what it shows.

https://ibb.co/jxwPFb

This is the tree branching.
https://ibb.co/jytt8w

IronSide
12-10-17, 20:59
That would mean that the Armenians arrived in Armenia only in the sixth century BC, with the Orontid Dynasty. All the kings before were Hurrite Urartian. That seems unlikely to me as R1b-Z2103 was already found in LBA Armenia.

Two posts by me and Aramu on how proto-Armenians migrated to the Armenian Highlands, and two different theories:

1- https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30881-Modern-distribution-of-R1b-Z2103/page2?p=502609#post502609 Aramu's idea.

2- https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34459-7000-Year-Old-DNA-Found-in-Artsakh-Cave-Matches-Genes-of-Modern-Armenians?p=517165&viewfull=1#post517165 mine.

There was a king of Urartu with an IE (actually Armenian) etymology for his name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argishti_I_of_Urartu

Jovialis
12-10-17, 21:18
https://i.imgur.com/H1lCxvKl.png

Great video, it certainly helped to clarify much of the nuances. I find it astonishing that 83% of 3,238 samples are yet to be publish; which means there's a lot more exciting revelations coming down the pike.

Also, it's great they confirmed the south Italian sample was result of genetic drift.

In regards to the Northern model, or Eastern Model; isn't it possible that it could be both to some degree? Moreover Iosif Lazaridis said it could have come in drips and drabs, and not a large scale movement. @ https://youtu.be/c-vqlWhAPs8?t=1h16m19s

https://i.imgur.com/UfZdczfl.png
https://i.imgur.com/q7Srzpcl.png
https://i.imgur.com/0nEoquql.png

bicicleur
12-10-17, 21:43
Bicicleur,
I have no problem with the proposal that climate change might have severely weakened farming cultures in central Europe. I just don't understand why you are so adamant that disease might not also have been a factor.
As for David Anthony, not that I think he is the be all and end all, his latest statement, which I posted above, certainly doesn't sound as if he necessarily sees this as an abrupt change brought about by invasion. He's very cautious about it.
These are some screen shots from the talk. From the samples they've tested, these are some of the dates and locations. Now that they know what to look for, I think it would be very beneficial to test all the ancient samples we have for that general period and see what it shows.
https://ibb.co/jxwPFb
This is the tree branching.
https://ibb.co/jytt8w

I don't know, very little is known yet about how this plague spread and what were the effects.
If you asume IE people were immune and affected local populations, how do you explain the shift from R1b-Z2103 Yamna to R1a-Z283 Corded Ware and R1a-Z93 Sintashta/Catacomb. The latter replaced the first, while the first are asumed immune to the plague.
You see, a lot of questions remain.
We even don't know how the historical plagues spread. We just now all of a sudden they appeared.

If I understand well the DNA was not taken from the human remains but gathered from the soil in burial places by means of a DNA 'glueing agent'.

bicicleur
12-10-17, 21:50
Angela, the extract you quote from David Anthony, what period is he talking about? There is no date in the extract.

Angela
12-10-17, 23:31
Angela, the extract you quote from David Anthony, what period is he talking about? There is no date in the extract.

Sorry, Bicicleur, that's all I have in the folder where I saved it.

He does say this, though: "people from the steppes migrated to the fringes of and even into Old Europe, just before it collapsed."

I did find an article from him that talks about the collapse of "Old Europe" and in that one he says that there was not one collapse. Different cultures "collapsed" at different times.

Unfortunately I can't copy it, but you can find it here.
https://books.google.com/books?id=gFEARIQ6zYoC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=did+all+the+farming+societies+of+Old+Europe+col lapse+at+the+same+time?&source=bl&ots=RuXVKsFNxF&sig=PRFeQ13lta1WRSAoKzpdxwXiMOY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiy5KG2_uvWAhXp5YMKHcByCF04ChDoAQgwMAI#v =onepage&q=Collapse%20of%20%22Old%20Europe&f=false

He rather downplays the role of climate change, since it wouldn't have made the area unlivable, and anyway the peak was after the abandonment of some of the tells. I actually just read a paper that said the same thing and proposed it was soil degradation instead, which Anthony also mentions.

Plus, it was a hit or miss affair, with agriculture continuing in many other areas of southeastern Europe.

The areas that were abandoned were the tightly packed tell settlements, the precise kinds of places where disease would spread quickly it seems to me. Anthony in this article seems to be favoring warfare with steppe peoples as the cause but I think it would fit both warfare and accompanying disease.

I'm not saying the disease was brought deliberately, if indeed it was a factor, although that's indeed what happened with the Black Death. The Genovese outpost in the Crimea was being besieged. During the course of the siege the plague appeared in the attackers. To even the playing field they catapulted bodies of people who had died of the plague into the settlement. The Genovese fled to their ships and the ships carried it all over the trade routes. The rest is history.

Anyway, Cucuteni-Tripolite survived until about 3500 BC.

Because the oldest sample we've found so far of the plague bacterium dates to 3200 BC doesn't mean it wasn't present three hundred years earlier.

Also, I think central Europe is a different subject with different time lines, many after 3200 BC, and those are the areas which saw the most replacement. Interesting in that light that Krause found it so far north.

I do agree that a lot more study has to be done.

IronSide
17-10-17, 19:20
@bicicleurI explained it in the link I provided.

Destruction

Archaeological evidence shows that the cities of Erzerum, Sivas, Pulur Huyuk near Baiburt, Kultepe near Hafik, and Maltepe near Sivas were destroyed during the Middle Bronze Age. The great trading city of Kanesh (Level II) was also destroyed. From there in the hill country between Halys the destruction layers from this time tell the same story. Karaoglan, Bitik, Polatli and Gordion were burnt, as well as Etiyokusu and Cerkes. Further west near the Dardanelles the two large mounds of Korpruoren and Tavsanli, west of Kutahya,
show the same signs of being destroyed.

The destruction even crossed into Europe in what is now Bulgaria. The migration brought an end to Bulgaria's Early Bronze Age, with archaeological evidence showing that the Yunacite, Salcutza, and Esero centers had a sudden mass desertion during this time.[1]

Into Greece

From the Dardanelles, the refugee invaders moved into mainland Greece, and the Peloponnese saw burnt and abandoned cities on par with the much later Dorian invasion which destroyed the Mycenaean civilization.[1] At this time, 1900 BC, destruction layers can be found at southern Greek sites like Orchomenos, Eutresis (de), Hagios Kosmas, Raphina, Apesokari, Korakou, Zygouries, Tiryns, Asine, Malthi and Asea. Many other sites are deserted, e.g. Yiriza, Synoro, Ayios Gerasimos, Kophovouni, Makrovouni, Palaiopyrgos, etc. This destruction across Greece also coincided with the arrival of a new culture that had no connection with the Early Helladic civilization, who were the original inhabitants.[1] Northern Greece escaped destruction, as well as southern Anatolia, which during this time showed no disturbances.[1]

Some thoughts:

Let's assume that this Middle BA migration of the Mycenaeans did come from the Caucasus, and with that in mind lets ask what Y-haplogroups this migration should have brought with it, by age and frequency the most probable is E-V13 but of course it hasn't been detected from the Mycenaean paper, another probable haplogroup is J2b-Z597, as well as R1b-Z2013, but probably not all its subclades.

If E-V13 and J2b-Z597 did come from the Caucasus, then we should expect that the Caucasian admixture in Europe should resemble
their frequency map.

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif
https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b.gif
https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Caucasian-admixture.gif

Another "Theoritical" prediction we can make is a migration from the Blakans to the east coast of Italy, E-V13 and J2b-Z597 already have that on their frequency maps, another interesting case is the Caucasian subclades of haplogroup G, G2a-L293 (most common in Georgians) and G2a-U1, have "relatively" high frequency in eastern Italy.

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-G2a-U1.png
https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-G2a-L293.png

These cases of haplogroup G (and many subclades of J2a) were carried by the Indo-European migrations from the Caucasus to Europe, their presence in Italy is from the western Blakans, we expect they had a higher frequency there before the Slavic migrations that brought I2a and R1a.

summary:

From their Steppe homeland, late PIE speakers moved south to the Caucasus and East Anatolia in the second half of the 3rd millennium BC, Haplogroups R1b-Z2013, E-V13, J2b-Z597 were the major components in their male line, they quickly separated into two groups:

1-The ones who stayed in Transcaucasia, Z2013 was more common in this group, but E-V13 in modern Kurds and J2b throughout the Caucasus are also included in this group. The Armenian language and other lost languages (Mushki/Cappadocian) formed in this group.

2-Migrants to Western Anatolia and Europe, E-V13 and J2b had a higher frequency in this group, responsible for the Middle Bronze Age migration and the destruction of towns in northern Anatolia, Bulgaria and southern Greece. This migration is associated with Caucasian admixture in southeastern Europe and the other small Caucasian subclades of G2a and J2a, who were assimilated by the Indo-Europeans.

Languages that formed in this group should have been Greek, Phrygian, Macedonian, Paeonian (in theory), Illyrian (in theory), Messapic (also in theory :embarassed:), I don't think the Satem languages Thracian and Dacian belong to this group, more lexical parallels with Balto-Slavic and Satemization may be considered as arguments, a migration directly from the Steppe with mostly R1b-Z2013 --> CTS9219 may be the case, We don't know much about these languages.

Messier 67
25-10-17, 01:04
Well, that changed my perspective on the spread of IE languages, learned something.

Then there is my theory that the "IE languages" are in fact not from Indo-Europeans, but from Caucasians (GHIJK xK2). If IE languages are heavily related to ancient Celtic and Slavic languages, then I withdraw my theory.

Angela
25-10-17, 02:19
There are other trees; this is just one of them, but they're not all that different from one another.

https://anthropologynet.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/indoeuropean-language-family-tree.jpg

Messier 67
25-10-17, 02:53
There are other trees; this is just one of them, but they're not all that different from one another.



Thank you, but Germanic has Haplogroup I influence, we have no idea of which people were dominant and which created the words, the Is or the Rs. And this tree is of modern languages (with references to Proto languages) influenced heavily by Greek and Latin, if the Greek Language falls to the Mycenaeans and the Mycenaeans were Js and Js created Greek, Houston we have a major problem. How did the J1as invent a language that was Indo-European. That is why I claused it with ancient celtic and ancient slavic, not modern languages influenced by Greek and Latin and other possibly Caucasian languages. In the next 50 years, the release of ancient DNA, particularly Y-DNA, will help reveal who created these languages and civilizations. I hold out the possibility of the tree to be inaccurate. The tree may loose some branches, particularly Greek. And there was Js in India predating the Indo-Aryan invasion. Is Sanskrit and Greek related? If the Greek branch goes, Sanskrit may be determined to be a language older than the Indo-Aryans. The whole aryano-greco-armenic branch may fall.

If the Ancient Greeks came up with the tree, it may look much different. Biases can be cast aside with finding of ancient DNA.


Follow the links below to examine some of the evidence for the past existence of the Proto Indo-European language, based on common words in the languages found in and around Europe and India.

Are they kidding, they group together languages that may not all be Indo-European and create themselves a proto-Indo-European language not based on archeological evidence but on biased guesswork. Like I said if Greek goes, their whole house of cards fall too. Too much influence the Greek world had on other languages.

Sile
25-10-17, 02:55
Then there is my theory that the "IE languages" are in fact not from Indo-Europeans, but from Caucasians (GHIJK xK2). If IE languages are heavily related to ancient Celtic and Slavic languages, then I withdraw my theory.

interesting that you are excluding the R haplogroup family as well as P, M, S

Sile
25-10-17, 02:58
Thank you, but Germanic has Haplogroup I influence, we have no idea of which people were dominant and which created the words, the Is or the Rs. And this tree is of modern languages (with references to Proto languages) influenced heavily by Greek and Latin, if the Greek Language falls to the Mycenaeans and the Mycenaeans were Js and Js created Greek, Houston we have a major problem. How did the J1as invent a language that was Indo-European. That is why I claused it with ancient celtic and ancient slavic, not modern languages influenced by Greek and Latin and other possibly Caucasian languages. In the next 50 years, the release of ancient DNA, particularly Y-DNA, will help reveal who created these languages and civilizations. I hold out the possibility of the tree to be inaccurate. The tree may loose some branches, particularly Greek. And there was Js in India predating the Indo-Aryan invasion. Is Sanskrit and Greek related? If the Greek branch goes, Sanskrit may be determined to be a language older than the Indo-Aryans. The whole aryano-greco-armenic branch may fall.

If the Ancient Greek came up with the tree, it may look much different. Biases can be cast aside with finding of ancient DNA.

After the creation of the PIE language the first split off from it was in Anatolia ...........so If R was the creator, then R should have travelled to Anatolia in a major way

It could easily be the GIJK group that started it

Messier 67
25-10-17, 03:38
After the creation of the PIE language the first split off from it was in Anatolia ...........so If R was the creator, then R should have travelled to Anatolia in a major way It could easily be the GIJK group that started it

Yes take for instance the word "barbarian".


The earliest attested form of the word is the Mycenaean Greek 𐀞𐀞𐀫, pa-pa-ro, written in Linear B syllabic script.


A word barbara- is also found in the Sanskrit of ancient India, with the primary meaning of "stammering" implying someone with an unfamiliar language.

source: wikipedia

The Romans and others picked up the word from the Greeks and is now used by English, Czech and many other "IE languages". A Greek word started by the Mycenaeans Greeks and used also by the Indians in Sanskrit for something very similar. If the Mycenaeans are found to be mainly EGIJ and not R1, why would they start speaking an IE language? Maciamo might add they may have picked it up in Anatolia. But if the branch also includes the Armenian language, that is pre-Anatolian migration. And it plots along the J2a route from the Caucasus. From the Caucasus to India and from the Caucasus to the Greece - the J2a migration. And if the Minoan language gets opened up with more texts and exposure... So it opens the door to the Greek language not being a IE language. And Sanskrit not a pure IE language, a multi-ethnic language that first J1a Caucasian, then evolved to include words from the invaders Warrior caste. The same true for Persian and Armenian. This would ruin the day of many white nationalists. But only based on factual information.

Roman is already found to be a multi-ethnic language, as Maciamo points out.

Jovialis
08-11-17, 14:08
This series of talks was given today and is available on youtube. It features, among others, David Reich, Iosif Lazaridis, and Johannes Krause.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=c-vqlWhAPs8


Unfortunately The video is no longer available at that link.

Luckily there's a re-upload:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OazVFNWL7I

Angela
08-11-17, 16:10
Unfortunately The video is no longer available at that link.

Luckily there's a re-upload:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OazVFNWL7I

Thanks for catching that, Jovialis.

Salento
08-11-17, 21:19
YouTube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1iMtPUocz_tglfOvhBmf5A

Ralphie Boy
15-11-17, 03:34
Thanks so much for sharing. I watched most of the Lazaridis segment. His graphs and explanations are very clear.

Jovialis
02-06-18, 04:12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhTL6Y4vhuA

Here's another Max Planck - Harvard Research Center for the Archaeoscience of the Ancient Mediterranean (MHAAM) lecture video with Johannes Krause that was uploaded 4 weeks ago.

Jovialis
02-06-18, 05:19
https://i.imgur.com/BuPwuHP.png

Here's a really interesting slide from the lecture. A map of all of the ancient genomes collected in the world.

Angela
02-06-18, 13:54
https://i.imgur.com/BuPwuHP.png

Here's a really interesting slide from the lecture. A map of all of the ancient genomes collected in the world.

Am I wrong or are there more genomes in Italy than have been published, especially in the center and south?

Pax Augusta
02-06-18, 13:57
Am I wrong or are there more genomes in Italy than have been published, especially in the center and south?

Maybe are modern human genomes (like HGDP and others).

Jovialis
02-06-18, 15:12
I wish I could find a better shot of the slide.

That would be exciting if they are in fact yet to be published samples of ancient DNA.

Angela
02-06-18, 20:00
I wish I could find a better shot of the slide.

That would be exciting if they are in fact yet to be published samples of ancient DNA.

Yes, because now that I think about it, it could be modern dna as well, given the title.

Sile
02-06-18, 20:25
Then there is my theory that the "IE languages" are in fact not from Indo-Europeans, but from Caucasians (GHIJK xK2). If IE languages are heavily related to ancient Celtic and Slavic languages, then I withdraw my theory.

not many believe that K2 is not caucasus...is this due to the karafet 2014 paper.......where she states SE Asia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K2
i have no opinion on k2

CrazyDonkey
02-06-18, 21:15
Famine and Plague tend to be associated. Famine gets people moving, bringing with them their pathogens, which might otherwise have remained isolated within a resistant population.