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Angela
11-10-17, 20:56
I don't usually out and out disagree with a paper right from the get go where the authors have done so much research and statistical analysis, but this is an exception. They did something wrong.See: Jorien L. Treurhttps://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/10/07/199828"Study Objectives: Higher caffeine consumption has been linked to poorer sleep and insomnia complaints. We investigated whether these observational associations are the result of genetic risk factors influencing both caffeine consumption and poorer sleep, and/or whether they reflect (possibly bidirectional) causal effects. Methods: Summary-level data were available from genome-wide association studies (GWAS) on caffeine consumption (n=91,462), sleep duration, and chronotype (i.e., being a morning versus an evening person) (both n=128,266), and insomnia complaints (n=113,006). Linkage disequilibrium (LD) score regression was used to calculate genetic correlations, reflecting the extent to which genetic variants influencing caffeine consumption and sleep behaviours overlap. Causal effects were tested with bidirectional, two-sample Mendelian randomization (MR), an instrumental variable approach that utilizes genetic variants robustly associated with an exposure variable as an instrument to test causal effects. Estimates from individual genetic variants were combined using inverse-variance weighted meta-analysis, weighted median regression and MR Egger regression methods. Results: There was no clear evidence for genetic correlation between caffeine consumption and sleep duration (rg=0.000, p=0.998), chronotype (rg=0.086, p=0.192) or insomnia (rg=-0.034, p=0.700). Two-sample Mendelian randomization analyses did not support causal effects from caffeine consumption to sleep behaviours, or the other way around. Conclusions: [B]We found no evidence in support of genetic correlation or causal effects between caffeine consumption and sleep. While caffeine may have acute effects on sleep when taken shortly before habitual bedtime, our findings suggest that a more sustained pattern of high caffeine consumption is likely associated with poorer sleep through shared environmental factors."If I take a cup of coffee at 3PM and try to go to sleep at 10 or 11 I'll be tossing and turning for hours. My results from 23andme gave me a hint as to the reason. I metabolize caffeine very, very slowly. So, I might as well have taken the coffee at 9PM.This highlights one of the problems I see with all these studies on disease and genetics using British Biobank data. Are most of the samples taken from the British Isles? If they are, you cannot assume that what holds true for the British holds true even for other Europeans. In any case, these test subjects were all from Britain. Repeat the test with other Europeans. I've always found it bizarre how on British films and tv series they're making a cup of tea when they're awoken in the middle of the night. For me, that would mean I wouldn't sleep for another 12 hours at least.

davef
11-10-17, 22:03
For me, caffeine usually induces relaxation, elevates my mood, and improves my concentration.

Maciamo
11-10-17, 22:12
I am also a very slow metaboliser. If I drink coffee after lunch I can't sleep at night. It's every time the same and it's always been like that.

LeBrok
12-10-17, 01:00
I have very fast metabolism of caffeine. I can drink coffee, go to bed and have a great sleep. It is also harder for me to get a refreshing boost of energy after morning coffee. Like nothing happened. Just tastes good. Perhaps some of effect is masked, because I don't drink a very strong coffee. It becomes too bitter for my taste.

Angela
12-10-17, 03:24
I have very fast metabolism of caffeine. I can drink coffee, go to bed and have a great sleep. It is also harder for me to get a refreshing boost of energy after morning coffee. Like nothing happened. Just tastes good. Perhaps some of effect is masked, because I don't drink a very strong coffee. It becomes too bitter for my taste.A really good friend of mine is just like you. We used to spend whole days together studying in the library, and every two hours or so he'd say let's go get a coffee. As the weeks went on I noticed I was getting more and more nervous, high strung, not eating very well, losing weight I could ill afford to lose, having what I thought were panic attacks, being unable to sleep. I couldn't understand it. The pressures of school had never bothered me before, and I usually fell asleep as soon as my head hit the pillow! Finally I went to the doctor, convinced there was something really wrong with me. After listening to me he asked me how many cups of coffee I drank a day. I told him seven or eight a day. His eyes bugged out and then he told me to go off caffeine for two weeks and then come back! It all went away. Lesson learned. One cup a day. When out to dinner I noticed that sometimes after asking for decaf I'd still be awake half the night. Somebody in the restaurant business told me that if it's late some of the wait staff is not going to make a special pot of decaf for you. They'll just give you regular coffee. Second lesson learned. Like you, it's bitter to me without sugar and milk, and also very acidic, although I do like it strong. It gets me going. In Italy they serve it all day and at night after dinner and I just constantly have to decline and ask for chamomile tea or something, like an invalid. :)I'm surprised these researchers don't realize that sensitivity to caffeine can vary greatly. They can't generalize in that way.

davef
12-10-17, 04:41
I love it straight black!! I do not accept ANYTHING in my coffee and when it's not too hot I chug it down. I tend to avoid drinking overly strong coffee during the day bc when it all gets out I'm in a depression and fog bad enough to make me want to stare at a wall.

AdeoF
12-10-17, 17:01
I've been drinking coffee for years. For me Just one or two coffees is nothing for me even a double espresso is not much. But however everyone is different and right now since, I'm in University (College) its my best friend

Jovialis
12-10-17, 19:41
I can drink a whole pot of coffee, but if I'm tired enough, I will still need to at least rest my eyes. However, espresso will keep me up for 7 hours straight.

Angela
12-10-17, 19:48
Some of my friends who like to linger over their coffee after dinner wouldn't listen to me when I told them that each tiny serving of espresso contains the same amount of caffeine as a large cup of strong American coffee. Three cups of espresso later and it was as if they were on meth. :(

The worst case was when a friend who was staying with me got up early, made a pot, put most of it into a big container and then added milk and sugar. He thought the effect would be similar to a large cup of American coffee. WRONG!

You would think I would like it; 23andme tells me I'm likely not a bitter taster, but I don't. I also find it very acidic. I love cappuccino, though, and coffee ice cream, coffee in desserts etc. Of course, I would never dream of asking my hosts in Italy to serve me cappuccino after lunch or in the afternoon, though. They would think I'd lost my senses. :)

Btw, my Italian relatives call American coffee dirty dishwater. :)

Jovialis
13-10-17, 15:04
Some of my friends who like to linger over their coffee after dinner wouldn't listen to me when I told them that each tiny serving of espresso contains the same amount of caffeine as a large cup of strong American coffee. Three cups of espresso later and it was as if they were on meth. :(
The worst case was when a friend who was staying with me got up early, made a pot, put most of it into a big container and then added milk and sugar. He thought the effect would be similar to a large cup of American coffee. WRONG!
You would think I would like it; 23andme tells me I'm likely not a bitter taster, but I don't. I also find it very acidic. I love cappuccino, though, and coffee ice cream, coffee in desserts etc. Of course, I would never dream of asking my hosts in Italy to serve me cappuccino after lunch or in the afternoon, though. They would think I'd lost my senses. :)
Btw, my Italian relatives call American coffee dirty dishwater. :)

I'm feel like I'm pretty much immune to coffee, I'm about to go for my 4th cup. Is it possible to build a tolerance for it?

I recall going to a family dinner at a high-end restaurant overlooking Manhattan from the river. We ordered espresso, and they actually made it wrong, because the staff didn't know how to use the machine; which they admitted to. My uncle was outraged, and he demanded to have it removed from the bill, which they complied. They were charging a high price for it as well. :useless:

Jovialis
03-11-17, 20:06
https://i.imgur.com/cNIp83Y.png

This is how I metabolize caffeine according to the geneplaza app.

SoloWarrior
04-11-17, 16:23
I am supposedly a slow metabolizer. By DNA that is.

I am actually a fast metabolizer, in that I can have a coffee in the early morning, another at the start of work, and even add a strong espresso on top in the afternoon. I am not drinking little cups of typical coffee but usually L or XL of dark coffee.

I still go to sleep at my usual hour.

SoloWarrior
04-11-17, 16:40
Btw, my Italian relatives call American coffee dirty dishwater. :)

Some UKers refer to American tea & coffee (and some American beer brands) as piss water. Not as charming as dirty dishwater but pretty much the same sentiment.

Angela
04-11-17, 17:13
Some UKers refer to American tea & coffee (and some American beer brands) as piss water. Not as charming as dirty dishwater but pretty much the same sentiment.

I get videos from "Facts", based in Ireland, on my youtube feed occasionally. They also have a tendency to describe drinks that way, and food in even more graphic ways.. Not comparisons that would come readily to my mind. :)

As I said, I'm a very slow metabolizer of caffeine, as was my mother, and as the gene analysis corroborates. Any caffeine after noon and my sleep is disturbed. It's ok, though, because unless it's doctored with milk and sugar I really don't like it, so I don't miss not drinking large quantities. I need something to lessen the bitterness.

That's one that the gene analysis got wrong. It says I don't taste "bitterness", but I do. I don't eat broccoli rabe, or brussels sprouts, or raw, brined olives either.

I just think we're at the beginning of gene analysis for traits. There's probably a lot of other alleles we haven't found yet, and we don't totally understand even the ones we have found.

Lactase persistence is another example. I'm homozygous for the LP derived allele conferring it, yet as I got older I started having some issues, and so I have to moderate my use of butter and milk. Conversely, I know someone who is homozygous for the ancestral version and can consume any amount of dairy with no problems whatsoever.

timetraveller
28-11-17, 17:52
I don't drink coffee much. However I find a little coffee makes me more comfortable, relaxed, more concentrate and less sleepy of course. So usually a latte is just right for me.