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Angela
12-10-17, 22:37
The idea seems to be that where there is more competition for mates, the more aggressive males win the competition and therefore are more likely to pass on their genes, thus increasing the aggressiveness of males in the society in general.

See: Tara Lyn-Carter
https://peerj.com/preprints/3331.pdf

"Sexual selection favors traits that increase mating and, thus, reproductive success. Some scholars
11 have suggested that intrasexual selection driven by contest competition has shaped human male
12 aggression. If this is the case, one testable hypothesis is that beliefs and behavior related to male
13 aggression should be more prevalent in societies where the intensity and strength of sexual selection
14 is higher, as measured by factors such as: (a) the presence and scope of polygyny; (b) the number of
15 same-sex competitors relative to potential mates; and, (c) the amount of effort males have available
16 to allocate to mating. Using mixed-effect linear regression models with data from 78 societies from
17 the Standard Cross-Cultural Sample, we found mixed support for the hypothesis using individual
18 variables related to male aggression, but strong support when using a composite measure of male
19 ‘aggressiveness’. We ruled out some potential alternative explanations by controlling for spatial
20 autocorrelation, and confounding variables such as political complexity and warfare."

So, polygamous societies would have more aggressive males?

I'm always leery of these kinds of studies, but posted it for discussion. When I get a chance to read the whole thing I want to see what they mean that there's a correlation only for a "composite" measure of male aggressiveness, not for individual variables.

Jovialis
12-10-17, 23:09
So, polygamous societies would have more aggressive males?

Makes sense, jealousy is probably a primordial emotion within some social animals. This would probably lead to an aggressive disposition from males in polygamous societies.
It's even exhibited in dogs.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0094597
Relationship between jealousy and aggression:



This paper reviews several empirical studies which highlight the relationship between jealousy and aggression. Jealousy is indicated as a factor contributing to male and female aggression and it is almost universal, found almost in every culture. Research showed that women were more jealous than men. Male jealousy is triggered by sexual infidelity while female jealousy is triggered by emotional infidelity. According to social learning theory, women learn different relational strategies than men by observing other woman using those strategies. A strong relationship between jealousy and aggression has been reported in several past studies. Based on the findings of many studies, there is a significant relationship between jealousy and aggression, such as loss of fondness, refusal, distrustful, lack of self-confidence, sentimental support, decreased feeling of incomparability and fear. Similarly, there are a number of important findings which indicated that jealousy has a high relationship with aggression. In addition, jealousy may play a role in aggression between couples, and jealousy is a cause for aggression after marriage. Thus, this paper aims to review the relationship between jealousy and aggression.
The Relationship between Jealousy and Aggression: A Review of Literatures Related to Wives' Aggression. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287304324_The_Relationship_between_Jealousy_and_Ag gression_A_Review_of_Literatures_Related_to_Wives' _Aggression [accessed Oct 12 2017].

Jealousy is the third leading cause of non-accidental homicide.


We humans not only have the tendency to become jealous over imagined threats, we also don’t often seem to take into account the “cost” of certain behaviors. Spending your time watching, following, or checking up on a partner takes time away from accomplishing your own goals.

A healthy dose of suspicion seems understandable, whether in humans or mountain baboons. What doesn’t make sense is the all-consuming perception of constant threat. This is costly to one’s self and damaging to one's relationship—a fact which becomes obvious when we recognize that jealousy often emerges as the third-leading motive of non-accidental homicide.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wild-connections/201409/is-it-only-natural-us-be-jealous

Angela
12-10-17, 23:42
Makes sense, jealousy is probably a primordial emotion within some social animals. This would probably lead to an aggressive disposition from males in polygamous societies.
It's even exhibited in dogs.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0094597
Relationship between jealousy and aggression:



Jealousy is the third leading cause of non-accidental homicide.

Some men just can't seem to help it, though, even in this society. It can be a curse both for him and for his mate.

Jovialis
13-10-17, 00:18
Some men just can't seem to help it, though, even in this society. It can be a curse both for him and for his mate.

Certainly, but jealousy can also be fostered in an effort for a woman to gauge a man's commitment to their relationship. Some men usually play into this, despite vocally objecting to doing so.


https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/love-proof/201504/when-women-use-jealousy

In studies, when women intentionally rouse the Green-Eyed Monster, revenge is rarely the motivator. Instead, they cultivate jealousy to discern the strength of their lover’s feelings and enhance his commitment.

...

Numerous studies show that globally, women seek signs that a partner wants to provide and protect over the long haul; they’re put off by behavior that says she’s just one of his many options. But men, who are focused on youth, beauty, and status cues such as how much a partner is desired by others, tend to respond to jealousy by tipping their hand as to how emotionally involved they really are.

...

Although popular opinion says men reject women who create jealousy, in studies, men who care about a woman usually *increase* their involvement. Jealous men admit to stepping up the amount of attention they pay, spending more energy tracking her whereabouts, and showing signs of her value to him. When Dr. Buss and others studied hundreds of dating and married couples, they found that men’s most common response to thinking another man was their rival was to lavish time, attention, jewelry, dinners, etc. on the woman they didn’t want to lose.
...

Jealousy can have a tragic downside. Jealous men are sometimes murderous men; around the world, male jealousy is the top cause of death for women of reproductive age. So don’t use this strategy if you even dream your guy could be violent.



Also, women can also be jealous as well. However, women tend to be emotionally jealous, while men are sexually jealous.


Jealousy in females arises from comparison, competition and the fear of losing a mate or potential partner. Women tend to be more jealous than men in a range of situations, and seem to suffer more from emotional jealousy than from sexual jealousy. Evolutionary scientists suggest that for some women jealousy may stem from a need keep a partner to ensure support for their children.

Emotional vs. Sexual

Compared to men, women are more likely to be upset by the thought of a partner falling in love with -- as opposed to sleeping with -- another person, research reveals. This is because for a woman, a mate becoming emotionally involved with someone else is likely to mean that the money, time and protection that partner provides may be diverted away from her own children. A study published in "Human Nature" showed that emotional jealousy lessens in older women, presumably because they are past child-bearing age.

https://www.livestrong.com/article/209554-jealousy-in-women/

Angela
13-10-17, 00:46
Certainly, but jealousy can also be fostered in an effort for a woman to gauge a man's commitment to their relationship. Some men usually play into this, despite vocally objecting to doing so.
Also, women can also be jealous as well. However, women tend to be emotionally jealous, while men are sexually jealous.
I agree with much of that as far as averages are concerned, although it doesn't apply in my experience. Having had a relationship with and married a very jealous person, I have to say that I never, ever sought to elicit it. It was bad enough as it was. I'm also different I guess from a lot of women. Of course, emotional infidelity coupled with sexual infidelity is worse, but sexual infidelity is plenty bad enough.

Jovialis
13-10-17, 01:00
I agree with much of that as far as averages are concerned, although it doesn't apply in my experience. Having had a relationship with and married a very jealous person, I have to say that I never, ever sought to elicit it. It was bad enough as it was. I'm also different I guess from a lot of women. Of course, emotional infidelity coupled with sexual infidelity is worse, but sexual infidelity is plenty bad enough.

That makes sense too, if their woman is "in love" with another man, I'm sure most men would be very upset. Also, I'm sure most women would resent the idea of their man having sex with another woman.

Perhaps more men see sex as the worst outcome, but more women see falling in love as the worst. Nevertheless, they go hand in hand.

Angela
13-10-17, 01:09
Another interesting twist to all of this psychologically is that the men who are sexually unfaithful are often the ones who are the most jealous. Perhaps for some men knowing what they've done makes it easier to imagine their mate might do it too? Or perhaps the double standard has just always been with us.

Also, although women can act out because of the sexual infidelity of their mate, they're just overall less violent. A really jealous man is more likely to start a physical altercation with another man over a remark or even a glance than would a woman. If he's more sophisticated it might start out as verbal and even as a joke, but it can easily escalate, or it can even become aggressive very quickly if the other man is a stranger.

Of course, I'm talking about middle class people here, not the underclass, where women might follow different standards.

Jovialis
13-10-17, 06:47
Another interesting twist to all of this psychologically is that the men who are sexually unfaithful are often the ones who are the most jealous. Perhaps for some men knowing what they've done makes it easier to imagine their mate might do it too? Or perhaps the double standard has just always been with us.
Also, although women can act out because of the sexual infidelity of their mate, they're just overall less violent. A really jealous man is more likely to start a physical altercation with another man over a remark or even a glance than would a woman. If he's more sophisticated it might start out as verbal and even as a joke, but it can easily escalate, or it can even become aggressive very quickly if the other man is a stranger.
Of course, I'm talking about middle class people here, not the underclass, where women might follow different standards.

If some women are intentionally fostering jealousy, perhaps some men commit infidelity sort of as a retaliation for their partner's perceived infidelity. Nobody wants to be a victim in these matters, so they preemptively act to assure their own self worth... seems like a vicious cycle of misunderstanding of partners.

davef
13-10-17, 07:14
There seems to be a strong correlation between testosterone or being male to start with and various mental conditions or disorders-autism, psychopathy, schitzophrenia, ADHD, and profound retardation (I may be missing a few or more). Even a female diagnosed with one or more of these conditions would expect to fare better than a male diagnosed with the same set of conditions since females don't normally reach the extremes of these conditions that males reach.
I would imagine depression and anxiety to be more common among females, but I'm not totally sure as of now.

bicicleur
13-10-17, 08:48
just look at the animals living in herds in the wild
they all want to be the alpha male who has the exclusive mating rights
they are willing to fight for it, every year in the season when the females become fertile
it is not a fight for life and dead, but males get hurt
and those hurted are prone to be captured and eaten by predators

I told in another thread, if you want to understand males, look at the male behaviour in animals

Jovialis
13-10-17, 14:23
just look at the animals living in herds in the wild
they all want to be the alpha male who has the exclusive mating rights
they are willing to fight for it, every year in the season when the females become fertile
it is not a fight for life and dead, but males get hurt
and those hurted are prone to be captured and eaten by predators
I told in another thread, if you want to understand males, look at the male behaviour in animals

When another male lion takes over a pride, not only does he kill the alpha male, but also the cubs. They want to ensure that only their offspring are taken care of I suppose.

Sea elephants have particularly brutal duels for mating rights. It seems that violence is a pre-requisite for access to sex, and reproduction for many mammals.

Perhaps this is what manifests as jealousy in high order thinking animals, with more complex social structures. Here's how the titi monkey responds to interlopers:



To answer these questions, let’s examine jealousy a bit more closely: Jealousy is frequently considered as a secondary emotion, triggered in response to primary emotion like fear or anger. It's the feeling that someone is trying to take something you have. If you are a French angelfish or a titi monkey, someone might be trying to steal your mate. And how exactly does a male titi monkey display his jealousy? He increases his aggression—first vocally, then physically—in direct proportion to the proximity of an outsider. The closer another male gets to his mate, the more distressed he becomes.

Given that a titi monkey couple forms a tight pair-bond and rely heavily on each other to raise their children, each has a lot to lose if their mate is filched by another. This is not unusual. Frankly, anytime a strong bond is formed with a member of the opposite sex, or same sex, jealous behavior will emerge when an interloper is detected. In that sense, we can think about
how jealousy may have evolved to protect our social bonds from trespassers.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wild-connections/201409/is-it-only-natural-us-be-jealous

This behavior doesn't sound that much different from this:


A really jealous man is more likely to start a physical altercation with another man over a remark or even a glance than would a woman. If he's more sophisticated it might start out as verbal and even as a joke, but it can easily escalate, or it can even become aggressive very quickly if the other man is a stranger.


Humans males and titi monkeys have similar responses in regards to jealousy.

Sile
13-10-17, 19:53
would jealousy be so frequent if there was no such thing as marriage.?

Marriage gives man the idea of ownership and gives women the idea of security ................ownership is the issue

Jovialis
13-10-17, 20:01
would jealousy be so frequent if there was no such thing as marriage.?
Marriage gives man the idea of ownership and gives women the idea of security ................ownership is the issue

I'm not sure, but jealousy seems to be prevalent in pair bounds regardless if it's in the institution of marriage. The OT linked study shows it's especially prevalent in polygamous societies. Thus it seems that an intruding third party is the main source of jealousy.

Based on this thread discussion, I think human beings are more meant to be in pair bounds, and polygamy is unnatural. Marriage/Romantic relationships being a social evolution that arose from our natural instinct to be in pair bounds, and experience jealousy.

bicicleur
13-10-17, 22:51
jealousy does not always deal with romantic or mating partners


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiU6TxysCg

Angela
13-10-17, 22:53
I'm not sure, but jealousy seems to be prevalent in pair bounds regardless if it's in the institution of marriage. The OT linked study shows it's especially prevalent in polygamous societies. Thus it seems that an intruding third party is the main source of jealousy.

Based on this thread discussion, I think human beings are more meant to be in pair bounds, and polygamy is unnatural. Marriage/Romantic relationships being a social evolution that arose from our natural instinct to be in pair bounds, and experience jealousy.


I agree with all of that. It's hard-wired I think.

This paper examined the phenomenon in underclass situations where the cultural strictures against female violence are less pronounced. Even in just securing a mate jealousy is involved, and the mating doesn't end in marriage.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3826207/

"Once a boyfriend is secured, the relationship must be protected from takeover by other girls: jealousy is another major cause of female fights. When a girl spends too much time with another girl's boyfriend, the anger is firmly targeted at the female interloper rather than at the male partner. This is all the more remarkable because many young men (‘playas’) enjoy trading off girls against one another."

Nevertheless, "Close description of the ecological setting, culture and dynamics of young women's fighting is illuminating, but it should not distract us from the fact that, everywhere and at every historical period, physical aggression between women is less frequent and less severe than between young men. As the dangerousness of the aggressive act increases so does the magnitude of the sex difference. Just as the sex difference is greater for aggravated than simple assault, so same-sex homicides show the greatest imbalance with 97% committed by men around the world."

"This pattern of sex differences has been explained in terms of sexual selection [37]. Daly & Wilson [18] focused on the greater variance in male reproductive success which offers incentives for intrasexual aggression in the quest for dominance and resources. While not denying the existence of female aggression, they emphasized its relative paucity which they explained in terms of the absence of reproductive incentives: females in polygynous species do not need to compete for copulations."

Here I don't agree. In polygamous societies everything I've read indicates that the jealousy among the wives is also extreme and can be violent. In the more documented cases in royal households the preferred form of aggression seemed to be poison.

See:
https://www.dawn.com/news/1135346

"Despite religious injunctions to enact perfect justice among multiple wives, Dr Raddawi found that many husbands lapse in this regard. Many of the wives she surveyed complained not only that they did not see their husbands regularly but that they were negligent in meeting their financial and support obligations."

"Based on nearly 1,500 quantitative and qualitative questionnaires that were distributed in 12 Malaysian states, the Sisters in Islam study is one of the largest ever conducted on the issue.

Its findings were alarming. Results showed that not only did polygamy negatively affect the wives, it also had extremely harmful effects on children who were the product of such unions. Many reported being neglected by their father when he had obtained a new wife.

As the number of wives and consequently the number of children grew, there were fewer resources and lesser attention or affection to go around. In cases where the father had more than 10 children from two or more wives, the children reported that he could often not recognise them, asking them to which mother they belonged when they went to ask for pocket money or school fees.

The condition also imperiled the children’s relationship with their mothers, whom they saw as weak and unable to get proper attention from their fathers."

The jealousy stems from more than unequal shares of economic resources. It's about attention and intimacy as well.


As for non-marriage matings I've never seen any difference. In fact, at least from the female side it seems to be even more prevalent perhaps there is a sense of less security and commitment. I can remember when couples experimented with "open relationships" too. In every case I knew the woman was pressured into it, and the marriages never lasted.

There are individual differences in this trait as in others, however. My son has the normal male jealousy about his girlfriends, but otherwise he isn't particularly jealous at all. My daughter is very different. As a baby not even a year old she would try to push us apart if we kissed or hugged. When returning home both of them would run toward me for a hug and a kiss, but my son, being older, always reached me first. She would stop still and start howling until I went to her and picked her up for a hug and a kiss. If I had him nestled next to me, or even her father, she would try to insert herself. He never did any of those things. People are just different.

Angela
13-10-17, 23:02
To emphasize my point above:

Funny jealous babies video...it seems to be more jealous regarding the mother in most cases.
See:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_iFMq3KCAY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_iFMq3KCAY

Jovialis
13-10-17, 23:19
That is pretty fascinating, it also made me laugh.