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Angela
17-10-17, 19:05
See: Pavel Flegontov et al (including Reich and Krause)
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/10/13/203018

"Paleo-Eskimos were the first people to settle vast regions of the American Arctic around 5,000 years ago, and were subsequently joined and largely displaced around 1,000 years ago by ancestors of the present-day Inuit and Yupik. The genetic relationship between Paleo-Eskimos and Native American populations remains uncertain. We analyze ancient and present-day genome-wide data from the Americas and Siberia, including new data from Alaskan Inupiat and West Siberian populations, and the first genome-wide DNA from ancient Aleutian Islanders, ancient northern Athabaskans, and a 4,250-year-old individual of the Chukotkan Ust'-Belaya culture. Employing new methods based on rare allele and haplotype sharing as well as established methods based on allele frequency correlations, we show that Paleo-Eskimo ancestry is widespread among populations who speak Na-Dene and Eskimo-Aleut languages. Using phylogenetic modelling with allele frequency correlations and rare variation, we present a comprehensive model for the complex peopling of North America."

halfalp
17-10-17, 23:58
I dont really understand, Inuits and Yupiks are Eskimos so Paleo-Eskimos should not be labelled Pre-Eskimos or Pre-arctic ?

Ygorbr
18-10-17, 07:20
I don't know if I understood all the details of the study correctly, but did they find a genetic, as well as the previously suggested linguistic, link between the Athabaskan peoples and the Siberian Kets, living in central-western Siberia, through intermediary Siberian-shifted Paleo-Eskimos who influenced the formation of Athabaskan peoples? Then would Athabaskans, like the Navajo, have origins in a mix of Siberians from Asia and Paleo-Eskimos, with these adopting the language of the Siberian incomers? I'm a bit confused.

bicicleur
18-10-17, 08:17
I dont really understand, Inuits and Yupiks are Eskimos so Paleo-Eskimos should not be labelled Pre-Eskimos or Pre-arctic ?

read about the DNA of the Saqqaq paleo-eskimo
they were there before the Inuit, but they got extinct when these Inuit started to expand
this study shows their autosomal is still lingering around in neighbouring populations

bicicleur
18-10-17, 08:24
I don't know if I understood all the details of the study correctly, but did they find a genetic, as well as the previously suggested linguistic, link between the Athabaskan peoples and the Siberian Kets, living in central-western Siberia, through intermediary Siberian-shifted Paleo-Eskimos who influenced the formation of Athabaskan peoples? Then would Athabaskans, like the Navajo, have origins in a mix of Siberians from Asia and Paleo-Eskimos, with these adopting the language of the Siberian incomers? I'm a bit confused.
9399
the Navajo and Apache are the result of a 0.6 ka expansion southward of Na-Dene people, they are C-P39
I would say the Athabaskan and Kets separated right after LGM when people from eastern Siberia expanded, west toward the Yenessei river and east into Alaska - the forfathers of the Athabaskans
they would have been C2 and Q1a2

halfalp
18-10-17, 12:30
read about the DNA of the Saqqaq paleo-eskimo
they were there before the Inuit, but they got extinct when these Inuit started to expand
this study shows their autosomal is still lingering around in neighbouring populations

I know about that, i'm talking about the denomination paleo-eskimo, why ancestors of Inuits wich are the real paleo-eskimos, would replace the paleo-eskimo ? The denomination of Pre-Eskimos fits better no ?

bicicleur
18-10-17, 14:11
I know about that, i'm talking about the denomination paleo-eskimo, why ancestors of Inuits wich are the real paleo-eskimos, would replace the paleo-eskimo ? The denomination of Pre-Eskimos fits better no ?

yes, I haven't read the whole paper yet, but I find their denominations quite confusing.

the surprise is to find Q1a2-M3 in chukotka & the Aleuts.
but if I recall well it was also found in Northern China some 2-3 ka.

Angela
18-10-17, 16:01
This is a good blog post on it.

See:
http://dispatchesfromturtleisland.blogspot.com/2017/10/ancient-dna-refines-new-world.html

Megalophias
18-10-17, 17:20
I know about that, i'm talking about the denomination paleo-eskimo, why ancestors of Inuits wich are the real paleo-eskimos, would replace the paleo-eskimo ? The denomination of Pre-Eskimos fits better no ?

The term Paleo-Eskimo goes back a hundred years. The guy who came up with it originally did think they were the ancestors of modern Inuit. He used Paleo- and Neo- in the sense of Paleolithic and Neolithic, a distinction between the methods of making stone tools: the Paleo-Eskimos by flaking (flint and such), the Neo-Eskimos by grinding and polishing (typically slate). Anyway it became a standard term a very long time ago, and in English "Paleo-X" does not really give the idea that they must be ancestors of X. So the authors of this study are just applying normal archaeological terminology to genetics.

LeBrok
18-10-17, 17:42
I find this paper fascinating. Did you see page 24, the genetic relationship? Look how they all radiate towards Europeans. When did all the mixing happened? I bet it must have been last 100 years.

Angela
18-10-17, 17:58
I find this paper fascinating. Did you see page 24, the genetic relationship? Look how they all radiate towards Europeans. When did all the mixing happened? I bet it must have been last 100 years.

I think so too. It would be interesting to see it done for the "lower 49" as they say.

bicicleur
19-10-17, 12:17
I find this paper fascinating. Did you see page 24, the genetic relationship? Look how they all radiate towards Europeans. When did all the mixing happened? I bet it must have been last 100 years.

read about the Ojibwe who expanded in the 18th century after getting guns from French traders
the Ojibwe would be 80 % R1b

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ojibwe#Post-contact_with_Europeans

I1a3_Young
23-10-17, 05:25
The Native Americans were very willing to mix. During the frontier skirmishes of the Revolutionary War, a tribe sent ladies wearing only a robe into the American commander's headquarters. He was shocked and then they explained that he was strong and they wanted his blood in their tribe.

From reading frontier-era books it was usually white men and native women coupling up. White women almost never bred with native men unless taken captive. Quanah Parker, the legendary chief of the Comanches was born of a Comanche chief and a stolen white lady.

There are many stories of mixed natives in early American history, it's certainly not new here.

Jim Thorpe, one of the most gifted athletes in history, was also half/half.

https://www.mesacc.edu/sites/default/files/pages/section/students/american-indian-center/images/jimthorpe6-2.jpg
Thorpe's parents were both of mixed-race ancestry. His father, Hiram Thorpe, had an Irish father and a Sac and Fox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sac_and_Fox_Nation) Indian mother.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Thorpe#cite_note-10)[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Thorpe#cite_note-11) His mother, Charlotte Vieux, had a French father and a Potawatomi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potawatomi) mother, a descendant of Chief Louis Vieux (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Louis_Vieux&action=edit&redlink=1). He was raised as a Sac and Fox.

Gonna guess R1b

davef
23-10-17, 07:47
The Native Americans were very willing to mix. During the frontier skirmishes of the Revolutionary War, a tribe sent ladies wearing only a robe into the American commander's headquarters. He was shocked and then they explained that he was strong and they wanted his blood in their tribe.

From reading frontier-era books it was usually white men and native women coupling up. White women almost never bred with native men unless taken captive. Quanah Parker, the legendary chief of the Comanches was born of a Comanche chief and a stolen white lady.

There are many stories of mixed natives in early American history, it's certainly not new here.

Jim Thorpe, one of the most gifted athletes in history, was also half/half.

https://www.mesacc.edu/sites/default/files/pages/section/students/american-indian-center/images/jimthorpe6-2.jpg
Thorpe's parents were both of mixed-race ancestry. His father, Hiram Thorpe, had an Irish father and a Sac and Fox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sac_and_Fox_Nation) Indian mother.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Thorpe#cite_note-10)[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Thorpe#cite_note-11) His mother, Charlotte Vieux, had a French father and a Potawatomi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potawatomi) mother, a descendant of Chief Louis Vieux (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Louis_Vieux&action=edit&redlink=1). He was raised as a Sac and Fox.

Gonna guess R1b


I just read about him, and this man had freakish stamina and strength. It's unusual to have both. What a beast!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Thorpe

bicicleur
23-10-17, 07:58
that is clear
9405

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9405

Angela
23-10-17, 16:09
that is clear
9405

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9405

We can't see the attachment, Bicicleur.

His is a tragic story in some ways.

bicicleur
23-10-17, 16:39
We can't see the attachment, Bicicleur.
His is a tragic story in some ways.
the attachement is the same map, which I included because the attachement didn't work
the map seems to confirm the spread of the R1b during the 18 th centrury expansion of the Ojobwe I mentioned above
alltough that could be coincidence too
you'll find the map in wikipedia under haplogroup R1b