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Angela
19-10-17, 02:25
I honestly can't believe it. This is a site where Jean Manco posts, and some archaeologists. Do they only look at the ancient dna section, as I occasionally do, and have no idea what's going on elsewhere?

It's truly un-freaking-believable. Why don't they just change the name to theapricity 2 or forumbiodiversity 2?

See:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12343-Are-White-Americans-really-on-average-98-European/page3

Jovialis
19-10-17, 02:51
looks like a highly intellectual conversion... :rolleyes2:

I'm happy I decided to come to this site before any of those others.

Well, other than the 2 posts I made on forumbiodiversity a while ago. I was looking for a place to discuss my DNA test results. I didn't know about it's reputation.

davef
19-10-17, 03:59
It's not that bad, it's boring and ****** do flock there, but it's no storm front or apricity

Angela
19-10-17, 17:56
Well, it got too bad even for the new anthrogenica: they shut down the thread.

Next step should be to permanently ban "Tz85". If they can't recognize a "Sikeliot/Portuguese Princess/Clementina" sock or associate, like him or "Claudio", for example, by "voice" and constant insertion of his well known obsessions, than how can they keep a site respectable?

They're either living in la-la land or some of them are complicit and let it go until called on it.

Not that we don't get forays from these rejects here, but we try our best to rein them in, or, when they go too far, ban them.

Jovialis
19-10-17, 18:13
Well, it got too bad even for the new anthrogenica: they shut down the thread.

Next step should be to permanently ban "Tz85". If they can't recognize a "Sikeliot/Portuguese Princess/Clementina" sock or associate, like him or "Claudio", for example, by "voice" and constant insertion of his well known obsessions, than how can they keep a site respectable?

They're either living in la-la land or some of them are complicit and let it go until called on it.

Not that we don't get forays from these rejects here, but we try our best to rein them in, or, when they go too far, ban them.

That's good that they finally closed it. Some people are really mentally disturbed it seems. Thankfully, this place can identify toxic elements in the community.

davef
19-10-17, 20:20
Well, it got too bad even for the new anthrogenica: they shut down the thread.

Next step should be to permanently ban "Tz85". If they can't recognize a "Sikeliot/Portuguese Princess/Clementina" sock or associate, like him or "Claudio", for example, by "voice" and constant insertion of his well known obsessions, than how can they keep a site respectable?

They're either living in la-la land or some of them are complicit and let it go until called on it.

Not that we don't get forays from these rejects here, but we try our best to rein them in, or, when they go too far, ban them.
"Sikeliot/Portuguese Princess/Clementina/curiouscat
"

davef
19-10-17, 23:20
What's fascinating is how much time he devotes to posting gedmatch results of Sicilians or trying to sell everyone in on his theories without using any reputable source to back himself up, it's all through stealing gedmatch results from random people he's never met and posting them online. Does he ever tire of this?

davef
19-10-17, 23:22
And you know a forum is going downhill when it starts getting members who panic about getting a small percentage of "non-white" such as Oceanian.

twójstary
20-10-17, 07:56
Are you all surprised? Americans have a fixation about race and "whiteness".

Angela
20-10-17, 16:30
Are you all surprised? Americans have a fixation about race and "whiteness".

Where do you think they got it? The Americans who established slavery in the U.S. and then passed all those laws about one drop of "Negro" blood making you "Negro" were all people with ancestry from Britain or Spain or France or Holland. They didn't come from the moon!

The politicization and standardization of it, even for sub-types of Europeans, started with the British in the 19th century and was perfected by Germans, who made Slavs sub-humans who were next on the chopping block after they were done with Jews and gypsies. From what I read it is now a growing phenomenon particularly in Eastern Europe, yes? On another thread we're discussing South Africa and their insane gyrations as to how to determine "whiteness" and thus civil rights under apartheid.

It's not fair to lay this only at the door of Americans. Plus, people on sites like theapricity, who also used to post here, were Poles, Russians, Spaniards, Italian etc. It's a virus that knows no national boundaries.

LeBrok
20-10-17, 17:15
Are you all surprised? Americans have a fixation about race and "whiteness". Not that much as Polish people, seeing themselves as guardians of white race and christian faith. To protect the perfect race and true faith. Not only it borders with racial fascism but it goes against Christ's teachings, what it means to be a christian. Extreme tribalism.

twójstary
20-10-17, 19:17
American and Western European fixation about race comes from superiority complex, after all - extreme racism was born in Western Europe. As you may know, Poles were the subject of the said racism for many centuries. It's no wonder that they're xenophobic and want to preserve their country in the ethnic state it was meant to be. By being thrown under Germanisation and Rusification machine, Poles found comfort and preservation of their "Polishness" in Catholic faith and the church, which was largely involved in bringing Polack back from the dead.
Poland didn't hold any significant colonies and wasn't part of the slavery deal. Blacks were used as slaves by West Europeans and Americans and it should be their burden to make it square to them. I don't like what you're doing here LeBrok, it seems like you hold some grudge towards the Poles. I would like to know when did Poles ever claim to be ultra-white Nordic Aryans getting rid of Slavic asiatic trash from the world to make living space for the true Western European masterrace? You know who did? The Germans.
But I feel like that's an offtop, isn't it?

davef
20-10-17, 19:41
^^
Not to worry, LeBrok doesn't hold any grudge against any race or ethnicity, and he's Polish himself.

LeBrok
21-10-17, 01:15
American and Western European fixation about race comes from superiority complex, after all - extreme racism was born in Western Europe. As you may know, Poles were the subject of the said racism for many centuries. It's no wonder that they're xenophobic and want to preserve their country in the ethnic state it was meant to be. By being thrown under Germanisation and Rusification machine, Poles found comfort and preservation of their "Polishness" in Catholic faith and the church, which was largely involved in bringing Polack back from the dead.
Poland didn't hold any significant colonies and wasn't part of the slavery deal. Blacks were used as slaves by West Europeans and Americans and it should be their burden to make it square to them. I don't like what you're doing here LeBrok, it seems like you hold some grudge towards the Poles. I would like to know when did Poles ever claim to be ultra-white Nordic Aryans getting rid of Slavic asiatic trash from the world to make living space for the true Western European masterrace? You know who did? The Germans.
But I feel like that's an offtop, isn't it?I have a better perspective than many, living now in the West and growing up in Poland. I can unequivocally say, that there is bigger racism and phobia of the world, of the different races, cultures and religions in Poland, and in Eastern Europe in general, than in the West, US included.

Zanatis
22-10-17, 00:41
I have a better perspective than many, living now in the West and growing up in Poland. I can unequivocally say, that there is bigger racism and phobia of the world, of the different races, cultures and religions in Poland, and in Eastern Europe in general, than in the West, US included.
I've made a few friends from Poland during my summer vacations in Albania and I noticed that they paid attention to physical characteristics a lot. They continuously pointed out and asked me if I'm sure that the children playing on the beach or staying in our hotel and nearby residences were Albanian due to the very high amount of light eyes.


I had to reassure them that although some speak English, German, Italian, Greek, or Swedish, their parents are indeed Albanian. It was very strange for them.


As for Anthrogenica, I joined there recently to ask questions on genetics and I have to say that so far is the friendliest forum I've seen. Here there are many reputable posters but mostly inactive unfortunately.

Fire Haired14
22-10-17, 03:16
The problem with Anthrogencia isn't racism but the lack of variety like Angela said. All they care about now is ancient DNA. And anthrogencia isn't anything close to right wing or racist. If anything they're too PC and left wing.

Jovialis
22-10-17, 03:35
The problem with Anthrogencia isn't racism but the lack of variety like Angela said. All they care about now is ancient DNA. And anthrogencia isn't anything close to right wing or racist. If anything they're too PC and left wing.
Don't misconstrue what she said, they are racist against italians; particularly from the south. At least some of the people in that thread are. That's the purpose of that thread, Its about people trying to assert their falsehood of superiority over others.

Edit: She said the people like Jean Manco are may only be looking at the ancient dna section of the forum, and perhaps do not notice threads of that nature. It was not about variety on the website. Tz85 is a ***** account.

Sile
22-10-17, 04:09
The problem with Anthrogencia isn't racism but the lack of variety like Angela said. All they care about now is ancient DNA. And anthrogencia isn't anything close to right wing or racist. If anything they're too PC and left wing.

is it not wonderful they have no religious rubbish to talk about
and
no discussion on who do I look like, which movie star etc

Sile
22-10-17, 04:31
Don't misconstrue what she said, they are racist against italians; particularly from the south. At least the people in that thread are. That's the purpose of this thread. Its about scumbag people trying to assert their falsehood of superiority over others.
i never seen this "racist on italians" and I have been on the site for over 2 years.............there are a lot of Italians that post on the site, especially south italians
.
.
I think you have an agenda and dreamt the whole thing up

Jovialis
22-10-17, 04:35
i never seen this "racist on italians" and I have been on the site for over 2 years.............there are a lot of Italians that post on the site, especially south italians
.
.
I think you have an agenda and dreamt the whole thing up
Maybe you should see the linked thread than. Are you kidding me?!

What do you think this thread was started for genius? To praise the thread and the site? Use your damn brain! Yes, I dreamt it up :useless:

Really, what's my agenda, pray tell?

Edit: Do you even know what that word means? Because I don't think you do:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34165-J2b2-L283-(proto-illyrian)/page4?p=522011&viewfull=1#post522011

"Nearly Everyone has an agenda" Yea, because it's totally not you :good_job:

Fire Haired14
22-10-17, 06:58
Don't misconstrue what she said, they are racist against italians; particularly from the south. At least the people in that thread are.

I read Anthrogencia a lot. I can't pinpoint any racism against Italians. I wouldn't doubt some of the posters who care more about classifying or race topics are.

Also, I don't see anything particularly wrong with that thread. It's a result of Anthrogencia is begging to attract less affluent people who are more interested in race stuff than hard core archaeology and genetics. And like I said there's nothing particularly wrong with it. It gets wrong when people get racist or when people (moderators at Anthrogencia) censor any discussion about race.

Racial discussions will usually come from the white American perspective in which everything non-NW European is exotic and even inferior. So, yeah that's a problem. But not all racial discussions are that way.

Fire Haired14
22-10-17, 07:21
American and Western European fixation about race comes from superiority complex, after all - extreme racism was born in Western Europe.

I would agree there is a Western European superiority complex ingrained in America. It's easy to imagine how it came about. After 1600, western Europeans dominated the world including America and were indeed in many ways "superior." Western European had always included Spain and Italy but they were later taken out of the category when Britain, America, and Germany became the biggest powers.

I think there's a lot of truth to America's concept of western culture, western Europe, and whiteness but there's some inaccuracies. Like I don't know how accurate the "Northwest European" genetic category is. Germanic speaking English, Germans, and Norse definitky have common ancestry. But the Swedes for example probably have as much in common with Poles as they do with Irish.


Poland didn't hold any significant colonies and wasn't part of the slavery deal. Blacks were used as slaves by West Europeans and Americans and it should be their burden to make it square to them.

Before 1970 Poles would have taken this as an insult. Anyone with the power took part in the colonial and slavery game. You know Poland would have done it if they could.

I don't support colonialism or slavery. I'm a nice guy but it's a doggy dog world. Unless you want your country to be dirt, you have to miss treat people of other nations.

Also, while we should condemn past colonialism we shouldn't feel guilty because our countries did well. When I say condemn I mean it. We literally did replace Native Americans, we literally did put millions of Africans through hell.

elghund
22-10-17, 07:40
Are you all surprised? Americans have a fixation about race and "whiteness".

How many Americans do you know? I know tons, so I know that's false as a general statement goes. Aside from vocal SJW's at liberal arts college, it's not a topic of conversation or interest among most Americans.

Zanatis
22-10-17, 12:53
This may sound offensive, but isn't almost every genetics thread in Eupedia full of posters discussing history and fantasy origins and from what I've seen the ones who start the war are never banned and continue to be regular members. This is why me and definitely many other members are just surfing through Eupedia with the fear of getting infractions if you get involved in anything. This is definitely not helping Maciamo business-wise, despite having quite a reputable website which could definitely double or triple its viewings and clicks if the moderators were to be less tyrannical. Just my 2 cents by the way, although I do expect a ban after this lol

halfalp
22-10-17, 14:30
Actually, i'm enjoying a lot of Anthrogenica users topics, a lot of knowledgeable people on it.

Angela
22-10-17, 15:23
It appears that it has escaped the notice of some posters that when the moderators finally read the thread they shut it down.

I also just love it that the northern Italian poster who lists his nationality as "Alpinoid" doesn't see any anti-Southern Italian rhetoric and skewed analysis by Sikeliot, Claudio, and Tz85 on that site. :) You just can't make this stuff up.

As for those who find only "fantasy" here, I personally post new threads on genetics almost every other day, threads on archaeology as well, but those don't attract the attention that "fantasy" threads do. In fact, the ones complaining about that are just upset that their particular fantasy has competition. Again, you almost couldn't make this stuff up.

What is happening in general in the hobbyist genetics world is that now that we have ancient dna people are not going to spend oceans of "print" on speculating, when their speculations can so soon and so completely be refuted by ancient dna. That's why at sites like anthrogenica you go through whole stretches like at present where only two to three worthwhile posts appear in any given day. There's also the fact that a lot of the basic parameters have already been established by ancient dna, especially for those who want to talk Indo-Europeans all the time. It's just filling in the gaps from now on. That's just the way it is.

To be clear, there are a lot of knowledgeable posters on anthrogenica. The problem is that since the future of racist sites is now in jeopardy, those people are migrating and trying to find other "homes", and the respectable posters probably don't notice the questionable posts on the less genetics and archaeology oriented parts of the site. I just noticed this one by accident. Goodness knows how many others there have been.

Let me be clear about something else: posters who follow the rules, stay civil, and don't ***** or insult other nationalities and groups will have no problems here and have not had any problems here. That doesn't mean that if you present nonsense claims or evidence you won't be called on it, because you will. That's a different issue.

davef
23-10-17, 06:12
Fire haired, I don't get your concept. You first condemn slavery and colonialism, but then you support treating other ethnicities unfairly in order to advance one's own nation. Why? If your business is desparate for an engineer and you had a choice between the Iranian-American who graduated from Princeton and an English-German American who barely made it through an institution with a 50 percent attrition rate with a 2.4 GPA, who would you choose?
And Sile, I have absolutely no idea why you were accusing Jovialis of lying and being agenda driven, that was completely unfair and cruel. He has every reason to feel offended by the anti south Italian/Sicilian trash that sikeliot posts on there.

davef
23-10-17, 06:34
And anyone who disagrees with the idea of anthrogenica being flooded with anti Sicilian posts has either never read anything from "Professor" Sikeliot or blindly sees him as a reliable source of Sicilian genetics.

Zanatis
23-10-17, 13:23
It appears that it has escaped the notice of some posters that when the moderators finally read the thread they shut it down.
It might have escaped your notice that people here are banned for trivial reasons.


As for those who find only "fantasy" here, I personally post new threads on genetics almost every other day, threads on archaeology as well, but those don't attract the attention that "fantasy" threads do. In fact, the ones complaining about that are just upset that their particular fantasy has competition. Again, you almost couldn't make this stuff up.
I check almost all of them and it's either the case of your post being the only one in the thread or you get a handful of "Wow interesting" posts.


To be clear, there are a lot of knowledgeable posters on anthrogenica. The problem is that since the future of racist sites is now in jeopardy, those people are migrating and trying to find other "homes", and the respectable posters probably don't notice the questionable posts on the less genetics and archaeology oriented parts of the site. I just noticed this one by accident. Goodness knows how many others there have been.
Exactly what I though it's happening with Eupedia. I joined because I very often read posts by Maciamo, Taranis, sparkey, LeBrok, MarkoZ, Moesan, Tomenable (some bias but still), bicicleur, Alan, and maybe I'm missing some other respectable posters in here.


Let me be clear about something else: posters who follow the rules, stay civil, and don't ***** or insult other nationalities and groups will have no problems here and have not had any problems here. That doesn't mean that if you present nonsense claims or evidence you won't be called on it, because you will. That's a different issue.
I wish I could mention 3-4 names but knowing how things go down here I'll refrain but I'm also talking of an Alpinoid, an Ancient Greek, and a Yugoslavian that have always fight with Albanians who although are not very knowledgeable on the matter, currently do happen to be on the winning/lucky side as recent data suggests. Yet its the Albanians that get banned, even for correcting your Italian. Sorry but its the truth.

Zanatis
23-10-17, 13:30
And anyone who disagrees with the idea of anthrogenica being flooded with anti Sicilian posts has either never read anything from "Professor" Sikeliot or blindly sees him as a reliable source of Sicilian genetics.
I'm not sure if flooded is the right word as I haven't experienced this dramatic anti-Sicilian/South Italian propaganda in there.

Sicily and South Italy do indeed share many genetic similarities with the Eastern Mediterranean countries but what always bugged me is the fact that how come people believe the Sicilians are dark because of this link. I don't have actual statistics but I've been to both Sicily and the Levant and there's no way the Lebanese, Syrians, or Palestinians contributed to that as the percentage of light features is way too high for the area. I was even shocked as one would expect that after hundreds of years of intermixing the brown eyes would completely dominate for example.

Jovialis
23-10-17, 15:36
What's this non-sequitur of brown eyes, and phenotype of Sicilians? Obviously, you don't need to be from the eastern Mediterranean to have brown eyes.

Here’s ancient DNA results from a Sicilian/South Italian poster:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34516-(NEW)-GenePlaza-K12-Ancient-Calculator-Results/page7?p=521471&viewfull=1#post521471

This doesn’t look anything like the garbage that Tz85 was saying on that thread. 50+ NA and Levant is Total b.s., what does that even mean?

Also, don’t purport that those people were banned for trivial reasons. You sound like a sock-puppet account for someone that was rightfully banned. Are you telling me, you have an account here for several years, and your only posts are these aspersions?

@davef

It takes a lot more for me to be offend. But I'm certainly offended by the lack of mental gymnastics by some posters that participate in these discussions. Thankfully, the rude, strident, and belligerent ones eventually get the hammer dropped on them, and are booted out.

Edit: I also think it's funny that in spite of that thread, National Geographic gives me "100% european". Though I'm sure other tests may put me at different rates.
https://i.imgur.com/ziVJxDc.png

Wheal
23-10-17, 17:05
Are you all surprised? Americans have a fixation about race and "whiteness".

Not all Americans... many of us could care less

Azzurro
23-10-17, 17:56
And anyone who disagrees with the idea of anthrogenica being flooded with anti Sicilian posts has either never read anything from "Professor" Sikeliot or blindly sees him as a reliable source of Sicilian genetics.

As someone who has been banned here twice for mentioning similar rhetoric as Sikeliot being pan Mediterraneanism and who also posts on Anthrogenica and is a friend of Sikeilot, I don't find that he is racist and I am half Sicilian, how can he be racist to Sicilians when he is 3/8ths Sicilian? He can't be the most reliable source since he is not a scientist conducting dna testing or is a project admin, but he does seem to know quite a lot when it comes to autosomal, before he posts results of people he checks to see if they are full Sicilian or Southern Italian whatever be the case and compares it to the other results that he has seen in the past and sees if it makes sense, how do I know this? Because he and I are regularly in contact. The true enemy and racists against Southern Italians and other Southern Europeans are these garbage Nordicists, who post vile things just take a look at Apricity there is a abundance of them, truly vile people.

As to the main topic of the thread, I am sure the poster who started the thread is one of those Nordicists, the owner and the admins don't stand for that sort of speech as no one should, the reason why it probably lasted longer than it should of is because it went unnoticed.

Zanatis
23-10-17, 18:20
Jesus, I expressed my opinion that happens to be the same as everyone here, that of Sicilians not being MENA or whatever Nordicists claim, and I already got 4 negative ratings in my posts. Very friendly indeed.

If you check my posts on Anthrogenica and you'll see at least 10 people clicking the Thanks button, replying to your questions, send PM with extra info.

So much for Anthrogenica being a nest of idiots, racists, and mentally unstable people.

This thread simply got my attention as I for a moment started to wonder if I should refer to the users there less, but then I understood its just for some potentially anti-Sicilian members there.

Respect to all and to Sicilians and their amazing culture and country (2nd best in my list after Andalucia). I won't be bothering anyone anymore on this topic so gather your negative ratings and report my offensive posts.

Angela
23-10-17, 18:46
As someone who has been banned here twice for mentioning similar rhetoric as Sikeliot being pan Mediterraneanism and who also posts on Anthrogenica and is a friend of Sikeilot, I don't find that he is racist and I am half Sicilian, how can he be racist to Sicilians when he is 3/8ths Sicilian? He can't be the most reliable source since he is not a scientist conducting dna testing or is a project admin, but he does seem to know quite a lot when it comes to autosomal, before he posts results of people he checks to see if they are full Sicilian or Southern Italian whatever be the case and compares it to the other results that he has seen in the past and sees if it makes sense, how do I know this? Because he and I are regularly in contact. The true enemy and racists against Southern Italians and other Southern Europeans are these garbage Nordicists, who post vile things just take a look at Apricity there is a abundance of them, truly vile people.

As to the main topic of the thread, I am sure the poster who started the thread is one of those Nordicists, the owner and the admins don't stand for that sort of speech as no one should, the reason why it probably lasted longer than it should of is because it went unnoticed.

You are aware that Sikeliot is a moderator at theapricity, aren't you? Or did that escape your attention? Never had any conversations about that? You are also aware that he used to publish anti-Italian rhetoric by the reams as Clementina and Portuguese Princess there, are you not, and as Oreo Cookie here? I mean, as you're such good friends.

Give it up. You convince no one. He's notorious all over the internet as the ***** with the thousand socks, often having conversations between his socks. It would be hysterically funny if it weren't so pathetic and sad. If you knew anything about him you'd know that he has tremendous problems with his Sicilian father because he didn't accept his homosexuality and because he disparaged the African in his mother's island Portuguese ancestry. Strange that he wrote me post after post about that when I was at 23andme but he doesn't confide in you about that.

I have joked in the past that all his output could be labeled "The I Hate My Father" opus. Whether or not that is mentally healthy is an entirely separate issue. Also, it's incredibly naive of you to think that some people can't hate their minority ancestry.They can indeed, although it is indeed sick. Just think about the part Jews who have been rabid anti-Semites, or part black Southerners who are racists. As a matter of fact he once relayed to me that he resented his father for bequeathing to him his "East Med" looks, for which he was supposedly bullied. Actually, if the pictures he showed me are legit he's a good looking guy, and unless he grew up in the Ozarks, which he didn't, they most certainly would not have gotten him bullied. Growing up in Rhode Island as he did, the sometimes visibly African admixed people from the Azores or Cape Verde would be infinitely more likely to be subjected to that kind of behavior.

As for what he knows about genetics, particularly Italian genetics, he learned most of it from me at 23andme, but of course he then twisted it for his own bizarre reasons.

You can also obfuscate as much as you want, but you were never banned here for your genetics based posts. You were banned for breaking the rules. Since you seem to be confused about that, perhaps you should review them.

davef
23-10-17, 19:04
As someone who has been banned here twice for mentioning similar rhetoric as Sikeliot being pan Mediterraneanism and who also posts on Anthrogenica and is a friend of Sikeilot, I don't find that he is racist and I am half Sicilian, how can he be racist to Sicilians when he is 3/8ths Sicilian?
Didn't sikeliot say he was 1/2 Sicilian? If he's 3/8 Sicilian, what's the other 1/8?

Wanderlust
25-10-17, 03:04
It seems you've become a bit more nuanced in some of your perspectives and I appreciate this--it's a sign of greater, more balanced intelligence. But in life there is always a quibble to be had...


I'm a nice guy but it's a doggy dog world. Unless you want your country to be dirt, you have to miss treat people of other nations.

This is overly simplistic, egregiously cynical, needlessly nihilistic and patently untrue. And I say this as a hardcore INTJ who instinctively tends more towards tribalism at best, misanthropy at worst, and the type of cold rational logic usually restricted to aspies and psychopaths. lol

For me, being fair, just, ecumenical, humanitarian, cooperative, and compassionate has nothing to do with pesky feelings or being “good” in some morally masturbatory religious sense; it’s all based on strategy and practicality, namely to promote peace, harmony and good will in order to avoid mutually assured destruction (which, again, innately, I sometimes think might be for the best because the cretinous and peonic masses don’t deserve this magnificent planet but at the same time, I’m more curious than nihilistic and would like to see how this relatively recent human experiment works out, at least while I’m still around lol).

Honestly, I (cognitively understand and recognize sadness, compassion and pity rather well but) emotively feel little to nothing when I give to the homeless, donate time and money to charities/non-profits, and endorse policies bent on “leveling the scales”; emotionally, I don’t relate to the “bleeding hearts” of the world; I simply see these gestures as necessary evils of sorts. Most humans respond in kind to good will, which only engenders more good will and most importantly, peace, balance and stability. If the police respect the people, the people will respect, assist and the not resist the police. If the corporations respect the people, the people will work harder for the corporations and increase productivity. If an occupying military doesn’t wantonly murder, rape and pillage the occupied, there will be less bloody retaliation and generations long vendettas that only perpetuate more paranoia/reality based bloodshed. IT’S SO SIMPLE. Giving into base, primitive instincts only acts as a devolving agent for humanity. I am proof positive that one can be inclined towards a certain fascistic, starkly right leaning worldview and ideology but resist them on the practical grounds of harmony (which is the only viable option once the alluringly pragmatic notions of mass, systematic extermination and annihilation are taken off the table)—as you can see, I am, in execution, a liberal (though idealistically, a centrist) but there is no "bleeding heart" attached.

Throughout history, there were always progressive voices far ahead of their times who decried the worst evils, systems and institutions of their day, while the primitive, imbecilic masses were slow to catch up—that being the case, I get how the atrocities and injustices that happened, happened, and to a very limited degree, can tolerate the “they lived in different times” narratives. But I’m a firm believer in “when you know better, do better.” And any logical, thinking person (that wants to live in relative peace) should be able to look at history, notice some pretty glaring patterns, and conclude that there are better ways to establish a prosperous, successful, more stable world order that don’t include unbridled sociopathy and callousness.

LeBrok
25-10-17, 04:23
IT’S SO SIMPLE. Giving into base, primitive instincts only acts as a devolving agent for humanity. I am proof positive that one can be inclined towards a certain fascistic, starkly right leaning worldview and ideology but resist them on the practical grounds of harmony (which is the only viable option once the alluringly pragmatic notion of mass, systematic extermination and annihilation are taken off the table)—as you can see, I am, in execution, a liberal (though idealistically, a centrist) but there is no "bleeding heart" attached.Thanks for opening. I did a similar journey myself, with starting point being mildly conservative and religious person. That's by nurture, and later by means of understanding, becoming pragmatic liberal.


Throughout history, there were always progressive voices far ahead of their times who decried the worst evils, systems and institutions of their day, while the primitive, imbecilic masses were slow to catch up—that being the case, I get how the atrocities and injustices that happened, happened and to a very limited degree, can tolerate the “they were different times” narratives. But I’m a firm believer in “when you know better, do better.” And any logical, thinking person (that wants to live in relative peace) should be able to look at history, notice some pretty glaring patterns, and conclude that there are better ways to establish a prosperous, successful, more stable world order that doesn’t include unbridled sociopathy and callousness. Ah, if we could just find the way to explained this to roughly 6 billion people who still live with their heads deep in their tribal arses. Might need to wait for generation of smart designer babies coming off the production line. ;)

Wanderlust
25-10-17, 08:49
Thanks for opening. I did a similar journey myself, with starting point being mildly conservative and religious person. That's by nurture, and later by means of understanding, becoming pragmatic liberal.

Thank you as well, Lebrok! And I like that you used the word "opening" because that's precisely what the journey entails: "opening" up one's self to new ideas, new belief systems, new environments, new people, new ways of doing things--there are always newer and greater truths to be found!

I know fully well how easy and comfortable it is to remain safely inside a bubble where everything is predetermined, the probabilities and risks have been tabulated, factored and mitigated, and our minds firmly made up on whatever it is we're too apathetic about, afraid of or lazy to confront head on with an open mind. But praise be to Odin/Yahweh/Buddha/Allah/the right genetics (lol) for the gift of curiosity and the desire/ability to question and ask "why?" This is why I always encourage my fellow anti-social internet introverts that tend to favor these types of message boards to actively step out beyond their safety nets, especially by way of travel and varying degrees of (sometimes forced) social immersion. Even those of us who are prone to confirmation bias can be shocked and amazed at the degree to which our preconceived notions can be altered, contextualized or completely turned on their heads just by virtue of confronting something we thought we knew, but in actuality, didn't know in the full sense;it doesn't matter how many times you see a "bad" place and its citizens referenced in the news, it's impossible to form a more complete, truer picture of them unless you encounter them intimately. For some of us, that type of social proximity is very difficult to do but it's crucial if there is ever to be any sustainable attempt at peace, tolerance and interconnectedness (which is inevitable though people try to fight it).

Fire Haired14
25-10-17, 09:10
It seems you've become a bit more nuanced in some of your perspectives and I appreciate this--it's a sign of greater, more balanced intelligence. But in life there is always a quibble to be had...


Thanks I appreciate that.







I'm a nice guy but it's a doggy dog world. Unless you want your country to be dirt, you have to miss treat people of other nations.

This is overly simplistic, egregiously cynical, needlessly nihilistic and patently untrue. And I say this as a hardcore INTJ who instinctively tends more towards tribalism at best, misanthropy at worst, and the type of cold rational logic usually restricted to aspies and psychopaths. lol


It isn't always true but it often is. Where would the USA be if it didn't take land from Native Americans (The Atlantic seaboard)? What would have happened to the Spanish empire if it didn't have millions of Black slaves (nowhere. It wouldn't be able to finance itself)?



For me, being fair..........has nothing to do with pesky feelings or being “good” in some morally masturbatory religious sense; it’s all based on strategy and practicality....... in order to avoid mutually assured destruction


It doesn't matter if you're liberal who thinks religion was invented by an evil white man with a beard in order to imprison minds, you're weird if you don't have emotional feeling towards doing good things or no sense of morality. Morality isn’t culturally relative to Abrahamic religion. I think liberals have called a lot of things culturally relative to Abrahmanic religions which are actually universals. Some very deep thinking liberals like yourself have ditched those things because you think they’re culturally relative (and reinforce inequality or something like that).


Tell me, what's the point of helping people, if you don't have emotional feelings towards other humans? Why do people matter if you don’t have feelings for them? You care for them because of "strategy and practicality"? Doubt it.



(which, again, innately, I sometimes think might be for the best because the cretinous and peonic masses don’t deserve this magnificent planet. .
Yeah……..and I’m the cold hearted one for saying nations need to hurt other nations to succeed. This is sick dude.

but at the same time, I’m more curious than nihilistic and would like to see how this relatively recent human experiment works out, at least while I’m still around lol). .
You have clearly manufactured this nihilistic, deep thinking persona. It’s not who you are, it’s who you wish you were. Like how you decided to ditch morality, you decided to be nihilistic.
One of the most dangerous things to western civilization is people who think like you. People who put far left wing, communist, nihilistic philosophies over “primitive” moral principles.
Tell me, how did the Soviet Union work out? It did away with evil religion, tribalism (put many nations under one roof), and class inequality? Sounds like your type of country.



If the police respect the people, the people will respect, assist and the not resist the police. If the corporations respect the people, the people will work harder for the corporations and increase productivity. If an occupying military doesn’t wantonly murder, rape and pillage the occupied, there will be less bloody retaliation and generations long vendettas that only perpetuate more paranoia/reality based bloodshed.
It isn’t that simple Wanderlust. For the most part Americans do respect the police. And even if Police were never corrupt or abusive, there’d still be people who hate them.





If IT’S SO SIMPLE. Giving into base, primitive instincts only acts as a devolving agent for humanity. I am proof positive that one can be inclined towards a certain fascistic, starkly right leaning worldview and ideology but resist them on the practical grounds of harmony
Ok, good. Then we agree at some level. Harmony is what just about everyone wants. But I’m sure we have different opinions on how it can be achieved.

as you can see, I am, in execution, a liberal (though idealistically, a centrist) but there is no "bleeding heart" attached.
I’m dead serious, hopefully you know if an ideology ever calls for violence against ignorant minds who can’t understand its truth, ditch that ideology.

Rewind
25-10-17, 15:58
I have a better perspective than many, living now in the West and growing up in Poland. I can unequivocally say, that there is bigger racism and phobia of the world, of the different races, cultures and religions in Poland, and in Eastern Europe in general, than in the West, US included.

Would you prefer that the east-central/eastern countries were like Sweden instead? A country so welcoming to others that areas/cities are becoming 3rd world ghettos.

LeBrok
25-10-17, 17:16
Would you prefer that the east-central/eastern countries were like Sweden instead? A country so welcoming to others that areas/cities are becoming 3rd world ghettos.It is not black and white issue. I would prefer they did it right. Don't take all the emigrants as they come. Take the once who better fit your system of political, economic and especially your social values and rights. Host country will be happier with them and they will be happier and more successful citizens too. Canada does this job much better, though not perfect either.

Wanderlust
25-10-17, 23:36
It isn't always true but it often is. Where would the USA be if it didn't take land from Native Americans (The Atlantic seaboard)? What would have happened to the Spanish empire if it didn't have millions of Black slaves (nowhere. It wouldn't be able to finance itself)?

Perhaps things would have been better FOR EVERYONE, and particularly the marginalized and oppressed, if there never was a USA or Spanish Empire. Ever stop to think about that? Perhaps if there had been an equitable and mutually beneficial TRADE of IDEAS and RESOURCES/non-human commodities with the Native Americans and with Africans (who occupied a continent with resources that would’ve arguably made them the richest on the planet), the USA as we know it, with racial/ethnic brutality, inequality and injustice being the beginning of our foundation and most persistent illness, would not exist! Maybe something better and far more egalitarian would have come to fruition!

Or hell, even if Africa would’ve provided human labor, it could have been human labor that they were amply and justly compensated for in the form of contracts, equal pay for equal work, etc…. Perhaps less war and conquering in the name of unabashed greed and more even-handed trade would’ve allowed for a peaceful, more stable world order, with different nationalities, ethnicities and cultures living tolerantly side by side, similarly to what exists today in Western Europe. Well look at that, it’s not so impossible after all! (sarcasm) With all due respect, the problem with thinking like yours is that it lacks even the most basic imagination.


It doesn't matter if you're liberal who thinks religion was invented by an evil white man with a beard in order to imprison minds, you're weird if you don't have emotional feeling towards doing good things or no sense of morality. Morality isn’t culturally relative to Abrahamic religion. I think liberals have called a lot of things culturally relative to Abrahmanic religions which are actually universals. Some very deep thinking liberals like yourself have ditched those things because you think they’re culturally relative (and reinforce inequality or something like that).

Yes and No. My innate/natural/instinctive state is, indeed, “weird,” an outlier, an extreme version of a “right wing” brain taken to its most logical conclusion > icy cold, harsh logic and pragmatism. But you have missed my point: one doesn’t need to be motivated by some religious based morality or universalist humanitarianism centered on “goodness” in order to do the right (read: logically correct and intellectually sound) thing! And the right thing in this case would be to make decisions that ensure that all of humanity is treated fairly, justly and equitably and enjoys relative harmony, peace and stability.

Again, my point is that I innately have the type of brain that could understand and justify colonialism and slavery, that could justify mass annihilation, etc…. It is flawless albeit icy logic to deduce and conclude, for example, that “I need a lot of gold. These people are sitting on a sh*t ton of gold. The best way to get the most gold without sharing any of it is to annihilate the people sitting on the gold.” Having said that, somewhat tangentially, it would also be logical to run a cost analysis on to what degree the expenses expended funding an adequate enough war machine/effort are preferable to expending resources by way of trade in ascertaining said gold. Now THAT is TRUE logic and rationality in action.

And because I’m hellbent on understanding patterns and predicting future outcomes, I have logically concluded that sociopathic war machines, oppressive systems and institutions like colonialism and slavery, do NOT work sufficiently enough to establish long lasting balance, peace, stability and security IF that is indeed, what most of us claim to want and actually want. I’m saying that even me, even people who are hardwired like I am—rather hunter like and predatory—should be able to see that any worldview centered on predation and oppression run contrary to the notion of a long-lasting peace and harmony.


Tell me, what's the point of helping people, if you don't have emotional feelings towards other humans? Why do people matter if you don’t have feelings for them? You care for them because of "strategy and practicality"? Doubt it.

1.) Umm, I did tell you, explicitly, and several times, the point of helping people even if I “don’t have emotional feelings towards other humans,” which, technically speaking, are your words and not mine. And that point is universal and far reaching PEACE, BALANCE, STABILITY, SECURITY and HARMONY. Furthermore, though limited, I do have feelings for other people, especially those falling within my various in-groups. Again, I’m quite tribal by nature. For those falling outside of my in-groups, it’s more of a struggle to deeply care on an intimate and personal level, if at all, honestly, but I do care more pragmatically on both a local and larger scale in the sense that if the out-groups live well and in peace, they’re less inclined to be a burden and hindrance to me and my interests.

2.) A small example: In Brooklyn, there was this rude and sensorially appalling homeless guy always standing out in front of my favorite deli—he was the type to instantly make you lose your appetite on sight. Most people would either turn away if they saw him or just walk on by and ignore him completely. The thing is, he was never asking for money, but only food. Whenever I encountered him, I’d always give him a few bucks and buy him something to eat JUST TO MAKE HIM GO AWAY and spare myself and everyone else the unnecessary sick stomach. He revolted me on every level--1,000 years ago, he might have met my blade in the form of a mercy killing but in a modern society, there are consequences and repercussions for that sort of thing.

My charity to him was tempered and humane (out of necessity) but PRACTICAL regarding my most immediate needs. I did not give to him out of some moral inclination to do good, but out of a pragmatic one so that I would not have to suffer his stench. And on a macro scale, I endorse and vote for policies that would allow people like him to have the appropriate housing and mental health care they so desperately need IN ORDER TO NOT BE A SOCIAL BLIGHT AND UNENDING ASSAULT ON MY SENSES. The average “bleeding heart” liberal might be appalled at my coldness and emotional detachment but guess what, sometimes the “why” of why we do something is less important than the fact that we did it.

3.) It has been said that the level of one’s intelligence is dependent on how many different perspectives and points of view they can hold, engage and understand at the same time. It seems like you still have some growing to do in this regard. Just because you can not personally relate to my thinking and worldview, does not make it disingenuous or a lie—you don’t have to empathetically feel something in order for it to be so. The fact of the matter is that the logic of what I’m saying can’t be disputed. Not everyone experiences the world through feeling, some of us experience it rather cognitively and rationally. And by no means am I privileging thinking over feeling. Both should be used with balance, but they both come with varying strengths and weaknesses.


You have clearly manufactured this nihilistic, deep thinking persona. It’s not who you are, it’s who you wish you were. Like how you decided to ditch morality, you decided to be nihilistic.
One of the most dangerous things to western civilization is people who think like you. People who put far left wing, communist, nihilistic philosophies over “primitive” moral principles.
Tell me, how did the Soviet Union work out? It did away with evil religion, tribalism (put many nations under one roof), and class inequality? Sounds like your type of country.

??? None of this makes sense. You’re misusing terms and conflating things that shouldn’t be.

1.) I haven’t manufactured anything. You don’t remotely know me well enough to make that determination. I’m actually being brutally honest, outing myself, if anything. I’ve yet to be a hypocrite in my commentary on this forum. If one were more discerning at noticing patterns, it would’ve been fairly easy to deduce a certain reliance on logic and lack of sentimentality in some of my view points—for example, my admission (in a previous dialogue with you, actually) that I’m an avid hunter with a potent violent streak who gets a thrill from the hunt and predator/prey dynamics. CLEARLY, and I’ve said this on more than one occasion, I’m not the average liberal.

2.) I’m prone to nihilism but OBVIOUSLY, I am not actively embracing nihilism or else I’d sit back and allow our darkest impulses to consume me, along with everyone else and ensure our inevitable destruction because nothing matters anyway—this whole time I’ve been arguing in favor of conscious, rational CHOICES and DECISIONS, devoid of any moral imperative, that would lead to peace, harmony, security, stability and balance. YOU, on the other hand, are the one that actively displayed nihilism, upon declaring that though you are a nice guy, “it’s a doggy dog world…Unless you want your country to be dirt, you have to miss treat people of other nations.” That’s a blatant embrace of nihilistic sociopathy that would only lead to further bloodshed, oppression and destruction of the human race.

3.) You must pay greater attention to what I actually say and not invent things I have not said. For the umpteenth time, I have more of a fascistic, right leaning personality type and brain wiring. I do NOT have a “liberal” brain. First of all, cold, rational, detached, unfeeling logic knows no single ideology or party affiliation, which is why there can be some overlap between the extreme “fascistic right” and the extreme “communistic left” but I am explicitly telling you that my natural inclinations veer more towards the right, even though I actively embrace a more liberal worldview because liberal, progressive policies will help to level the scales (the entirety of the world is weighted towards the right) and provide more balance in the way of enfranchising the disenfranchised, redistributing wealth, growing the middle class, bridging the gender gap, less hawkishness, etc…, which in turn grants greater equality, peace and stability, which means that all of our lives improve.

4.) My rationale for this is completely based on looking at historical patterns and coming to logical conclusions about the best way forward. Once equality is achieved, I’d become staunchly centrist to maintain the balance. Again, I am not defined by ideology, but by an unrelenting reliance on logic, despite baser instincts, and am primarily motivated by what will work best to bring about a greater harmony so that I don’t have to endure all the crap that comes from inequality. And whereas I appreciate pre-communistic Russia and Russian culture, nothing about modern Russia entices me whatsoever. Please read what I have said VERY carefully.


It isn’t that simple Wanderlust. For the most part Americans do respect the police. And even if Police were never corrupt or abusive, there’d still be people who hate them.

So what? There will always be irredeemable outliers, those who should be buried underneath the prison or just buried altogether. But in a just society, the actions of a few don’t dictate how the majority are treated. Period.

Wanderlust
26-10-17, 02:44
Would you prefer that the east-central/eastern countries were like Sweden instead? A country so welcoming to others that areas/cities are becoming 3rd world ghettos.

Hi,

1.) Do you now live or have you ever lived in Sweden?

2.) I have personally seen the Turkish "ghettos" in Austria and things have gotten worse since the migrant crisis;I don't know why you mentioned Sweden as opposed to the "3rd world ghetto" you yourself inhabit.

3.) Having said that, Sweden is not now, nor will it ever be, a 3rd world ghetto. It's true that Sweden has done what many other nations derelict in their duties to the European Union have not done and have been greatly strained because of it. But we've had enough and are making the necessary changes. Trust me on that one. Many are fed up with the unending stream of refugees ill-equipped for life here (a fair amount of whom have little to no education, no prospects, are resistant to our culture and values, and are backwards and criminally inclined). Refugees in Sweden now only receive temporary residence permits with less financial assistance, while the right to family reunification is restricted. We've also stepped up border controls, doubling the number of officers patrolling the southern coast, where most refugees arrive.

4.) But it's not the asylum seekers I hold most responsible for this, it's other EU nations that refuse to pull their weight and thusly, should be punished.

Fire Haired14
26-10-17, 06:42
@Wanderlust,

Sure, you are who you say you are.



Perhaps things would have been better FOR EVERYONE, and particularly the marginalized and oppressed, if there never was a USA or Spanish Empire. Ever stop to think about that?


I was referring only to the US and the Spanish empire not the people they've oppressed. The question is, where would the US and Spanish empire be (have been) if they never oppressed people?



Perhaps if there had been an equitable and mutually beneficial TRADE of IDEAS and RESOURCES/non-human commodities with the Native Americans and with Africans (who occupied a continent with resources that would’ve arguably made them the richest on the planet)


No, that would have never worked. The Spanish empire would have gained its territory or wealth if it attempted to have a mutually beneficial relationship with natives and Africans. It's a whole lot easier to get something by taking it and forcing the people to mine it than to get it in a trade agreement. Also, Spain would have not been able to get nearly as much land in America if they didn't forcefully take it.


If the USA never took land from Native Americans it would literally still be stuck on the Atlantic seaboard. Mexico probably would have take the land from natives that the US didn't. And the US wouldn't have ever gotten access to resources it needed to be a big economic player in the world.
My original point stands, a nation can’t succeed by being nice to other countries. I wish that weren’t true.



the USA as we know it, with racial/ethnic brutality, inequality and injustice being the beginning of our foundation and most persistent illness, would not exist!
Would it be better if the USA and therefore its racism never existed? Definitely, definitely not. All goods have bad in them.

Anyways, I’ll give you my defintion racism in America because I think there are exaggerations and misconceptions of it. SLavery and legal racism only existed in the southern states. In the north, yes people were racist, but little racism was committed because there was hardly anyone to be racist towards. The north never became racially-diverse until the migration of Blacks from the South in the early 1900s. Then Blacks faced real discrimination and a poor start in life due to their past, however they faced little legal discrimination.


Racism in America has rarely come in the form of violence and laws. After slavery (which wasn't started because of racism but did make Blacks a slavery class), racism has mostly come in the form of feelings and unspoken social ranking. Blacks have been looked down on, been victim of prejudice, name-calling, and the like. And Blacks have in an unspoken way formed a lower class which isn't supposed to be affluent.
When you look at racism from that perspective you see unlike what some claim America wasn’t built on racism.



Maybe something better and far more egalitarian would have come to fruition!
Would the Natives have made something more wealthy, more advanced, more beneficial to the world? Definitely not.

with different nationalities, ethnicities and cultures living tolerantly side by side, similarly to what exists today in Western Europe.
That’s true and I’ve pointed that out a million times to people who complain about how scary the world is. World peace is possible.

bicicleur
26-10-17, 11:54
Hi,
1.) Do you now live or have you ever lived in Sweden?
2.) I have personally seen the Turkish "ghettos" in Austria and things have gotten worse since the migrant crisis;I don't know why you mentioned Sweden as opposed to the "3rd world ghetto" you yourself inhabit.
3.) Having said that, Sweden is not now, nor will it ever be, a 3rd world ghetto. It's true that Sweden has done what many other nations derelict in their duties to the European Union have not done and have been greatly strained because of it. But we've had enough and are making the necessary changes. Trust me on that one. Many are fed up with the unending stream of refugees ill-equipped for life here (a fair amount of whom have little to no education, no prospects, are resistant to our culture and values, and are backwards and criminally inclined). Refugees in Sweden now only receive temporary residence permits with less financial assistance, while the right to family reunification is restricted. We've also stepped up border controls, doubling the number of officers patrolling the southern coast, where most refugees arrive.
4.) But it's not the asylum seekers I hold most responsible for this, it's other EU nations that refuse to pull their weight and thusly, should be punished.
I don't see why other countries should be punished.
2 years ago many European countries, Sweden first kept a naive open border policy.
Other countries, mainly Eastern European didn't.
I'm glad Sweden and other countries learned from their mistakes and changed policy.
But in the mean time a lot of harm has been done.
Many immigrants dissapeared in illegality.
And for many others it will be a very long and costfull procedure to sent them back to the countries they came from.
A minority are genuine refugees and it remains to be seen how many of them will be capable to adapt and integrate in their host countries.
Most of them haven't yet. They lack the proper skills and it remains to be seen how much they are prepared to change and learn.
They should have been screened and selected at the European borders instead of letting everybody in.
Now you think that those who made that mistake should punish the countries that didn't want to make that mistake?
First admit the mistakes that were made 2 years ago and then see how the burdens can and should be shared.

LeBrok
27-10-17, 23:31
Thank you as well, Lebrok! And I like that you used the word "opening" because that's precisely what the journey entails: "opening" up one's self to new ideas, new belief systems, new environments, new people, new ways of doing things--there are always newer and greater truths to be found! I was born curious and open.


I know fully well how easy and comfortable it is to remain safely inside a bubble where everything is predetermined, the probabilities and risks have been tabulated, factored and mitigated, and our minds firmly made up on whatever it is we're too apathetic about, afraid of or lazy to confront head on with an open mind. But praise be to Odin/Yahweh/Buddha/Allah/the right genetics (lol) for the gift of curiosity and the desire/ability to question and ask "why?" This is why I always encourage my fellow anti-social internet introverts that tend to favor these types of message boards to actively step out beyond their safety nets, especially by way of travel and varying degrees of (sometimes forced) social immersion. Even those of us who are prone to confirmation bias can be shocked and amazed at the degree to which our preconceived notions can be altered, contextualized or completely turned on their heads just by virtue of confronting something we thought we knew, but in actuality, didn't know in the full sense;it doesn't matter how many times you see a "bad" place and its citizens referenced in the news, it's impossible to form a more complete, truer picture of them unless you encounter them intimately. For some of us, that type of social proximity is very difficult to do but it's crucial if there is ever to be any sustainable attempt at peace, tolerance and interconnectedness (which is inevitable though people try to fight it). What is surprising to me is that so many (not to say most) people I know, when they get older, they tend to close and withdraw from the world. They are becoming full of fears, irrational feelings, that are forcing them to build cocoon of safety. Cocoon of home safety and limiting world interaction to minimum, to few good friends. Off course watching the news is mandatory to confirm their decision of staying safe. Statistic of progress and examples of human kindness, are nothing against their fears, which only point them to the "true" face of the "crazy" world. It is like our social conservatism, the tribalism, we are born with is taking over with age, when we see that the world has changed so much from the one we have grown up in. Ah, and the world is changing faster and faster, to only aid the conservative fire in so many soles these days. The speed of technological change, social change, demographic change, civil rights change, all so scary. With many of them I can't have a sane conversation anymore, unless I join their bitterness, complaining, negativism, criticism, and the rest of this toxic culture.
I just pity the young people who at their prime are already afraid of the world. What would be their future?

PS. Last weekend I had a dinner with older couple who are organizing a small inclosed community on one of British Columbia islands, with aim to hid from this crazy and cruel world. Both with master degrees! Their only disappointment was that their kids chose to "enjoy" their family lives in big multicultural cities, like New York and London. Also they looked at me as I was the crazy one. ;) The crazy, optimistic, lost in the world, blind liberal.

Fire Haired14
28-10-17, 00:43
@Lebrok,

You shouldn't embrace Wanderlust as a kindred spirit. The dude seems a bit wako to me. He has equivalenced Evangelical Christians with Islamic terrorists and said in this thread "humanity (the cretinous and peonic masses) don’t deserve this magnificent planet." As I recall he was once banned and also cursed at Angela.

In some subjects, he blatantly ignores the facts in favor of a (faaa.....r) left-wing narrative. For example, in a discussion with me last year he excused a very real criminality problem amoungst black men as just something to blame police brutality for but accused white Evangelical Christains of every thinkable bad deed. It's a double standard.

On this thread he described himself as someone with little emotion and compassion, sort of psychopathic I guess. He probably thinks that this is something biologically determine that he can't and he shouldn't try do anything about it. Sad. I have a biological tendency to be lazy but do something about it.

Wanderlust is obviously educated, a deep thinker, cars about important issues, and has good things to say. But he's also seems to be a bit crazy and radicle in his views.

LeBrok
28-10-17, 03:43
@Lebrok,

You shouldn't embrace Wanderlust as a kindred spirit. The dude seems a bit wako to me. He has equivalenced Evangelical Christians with Islamic terrorists and said in this thread "humanity (the cretinous and peonic masses) don’t deserve this magnificent planet." As I recall he was once banned and also cursed at Angela.

In some subjects, he blatantly ignores the facts in favor of a (faaa.....r) left-wing narrative. For example, in a discussion with me last year he excused a very real criminality problem amoungst black men as just something to blame police brutality for but accused white Evangelical Christains of every thinkable bad deed. It's a double standard.

On this thread he described himself as someone with little emotion and compassion, sort of psychopathic I guess. He probably thinks that this is something biologically determine that he can't and he shouldn't try do anything about it. Sad. I have a biological tendency to be lazy but do something about it.

Wanderlust is obviously educated, a deep thinker, cars about important issues, and has good things to say. But he's also seems to be a bit crazy and radicle in his views.I know, we could say that he is not naturally a kind and compassionate person, and yet due to his brilliant intellect he can understand his shortcomings and mold himself to be an ethical and law abiding citizen. Isn't it amazing and inspiring? He is also highly critical of himself, if not brutally honest. And it is not the end of the story. Being limited in "higher feelings" he still can teach others proper ways of behavior to live in harmony with each other and betterment of humankind in general. Most of it done by the way of logical thinking, deductions, predictions, causation, statistic, etc. He is rare yet inspiring example of nurture ruling over nature. If I didn't see it I wouldn't believe it, but he is real deal.

Fire Haired14
28-10-17, 04:55
I know, we could say that he is not naturally a kind and compassionate person, and yet due to his brilliant intellect he can understand his shortcomings and mold himself to be an ethical and law abiding citizen.

He is rare yet inspiring example of nurture ruling over nature. If I didn't see it I wouldn't believe it, but he is real deal.

I don't believe he is the natural born psychopath-type he says he is. Yes, maybe he has some of the characteristics he claims he has. However, I think most of it is from a miss understood reflections he makes on himself.


Isn't it amazing and inspiring? He is also highly critical of himself, if not brutally honest. And it is not the end of the story. Being limited in "higher feelings" he still can teach others proper ways of behavior to live in harmony with each other and betterment of humankind in general. Most of it done by the way of logical thinking, deductions, predictions, causation, statistic, etc. He is rare yet inspiring example of nurture ruling over nature. If I didn't see it I wouldn't believe it, but he is real deal.

Lebrok, this literally sounds like North Korea style propaganda. Even if true it wouldn't be "amazing and inspiring."


Most of it done by the way of logical thinking, deductions, predictions, causation, statistic, etc. He is rare yet inspiring example of nurture ruling over nature. If I didn't see it I wouldn't believe it, but he is real deal.

Like I said, he doesn't always follow what the facts say. I've seen with my own eyes Wanderlust deny or twist the truth to fit a narrative he likes. He's nothing more than the typical educated yet extremely radicle leftist. The type of old communist white person who helps lead Black Lives Matter protests and throws out conservative speakers at colleges. That's the type of person he comes off as. Much more creepy than inspiring.

LeBrok
28-10-17, 05:27
I don't believe he is the natural born psychopath-type he says he is. Yes, maybe he has some of the characteristics he claims he has. However, I think most of it is from a miss understood reflections he makes on himself.



Lebrok, this literally sounds like North Korea style propaganda. Even if true it wouldn't be "amazing and inspiring."



Like I said, he doesn't always follow what the facts say. I've seen with my own eyes Wanderlust deny or twist the truth to fit a narrative he likes. He's nothing more than the typical educated yet extremely radicle leftist. The type of old communist white person who helps lead Black Lives Matter protests and throws out conservative speakers at colleges. That's the type of person he comes off as. Much more creepy than inspiring. I know you are opinionated young man who loves to have his say, but if it comes to understanding people, their character, personality and predispositions, you should listen and trust us, the experienced educated smart thinkers. ;)

davef
28-10-17, 16:29
Look what I found on anthrogenica:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12467-Why-Do-Italians-Have-Such-A-High-MiddleEastern-Component

More anti-Sicilian garbage.

Can someone grant me a mod badge for at least a day over there? ;)

Pax Augusta
28-10-17, 17:29
Look what I found on anthrogenica:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12467-Why-Do-Italians-Have-Such-A-High-MiddleEastern-Component

More anti-Sicilian garbage.

Can someone grant me a mod badge for at least a day over there? ;)

Sikeliot aka Portuguese Princess and his many sockpuppets.

davef
28-10-17, 17:30
Sikeliot aka Portuguese Princess and his many sockpuppets.
^^^^^ Bingo

Wanderlust
31-10-17, 20:51
I must say, in all our interactions, there always comes a point in the dialogue where a rather uneducated, uncultivated, imperceptive, nearsighted, lowbred response of yours begs an analytical thrashing of gargantuan proportions and in that moment, I become vexed, dispirited, bored, prone to distraction and inevitably I remove from my immediate consciousness the interaction altogether. I want to be unmistakably clear that my lack of replies is never a matter of me having been outwitted or bested, and especially by the likes of you, but alternately, is a result of my utter dismay, disinterest and contempt at your overall lack of competency about which you speak. Of the many flaws I possess, an inability to suffer mental rigidity, intellectual cloddishness and ineptitude reigns supreme.

However, there are occasions of such absurdity where even I’d find myself derelict as a scholar and layman with fully functioning thinking faculties if I didn’t indulge, challenge and/or debunk some of these so-called “thoughts” and other incoherent drivel you intend to pass off as “logic.” And so here we are….


I was referring only to the US and the Spanish empire not the people they've oppressed. The question is, where would the US and Spanish empire be (have been) if they never oppressed people?

Sigh. My original comment/response still stands and furthermore, I tire of repeating myself:


“Perhaps things would have been better FOR EVERYONE, and particularly the marginalized and oppressed, if there never was a USA or Spanish Empire. Ever stop to think about that? Perhaps if there had been an equitable and mutually beneficial TRADE of IDEAS and RESOURCES/non-human commodities with the Native Americans and with Africans (who occupied a continent with resources that would’ve arguably made them the richest on the planet), the USA as we know it, with racial/ethnic brutality, inequality and injustice being the beginning of our foundation and most persistent illness, would not exist! Maybe something better and far more egalitarian would have come to fruition!”


No, that would have never worked. The Spanish empire would have gained its territory or wealth if it attempted to have a mutually beneficial relationship with natives and Africans. It's a whole lot easier to get something by taking it and forcing the people to mine it than to get it in a trade agreement. Also, Spain would have not been able to get nearly as much land in America if they didn't forcefully take it.
…………
If the USA never took land from Native Americans it would literally still be stuck on the Atlantic seaboard. Mexico probably would have take the land from natives that the US didn't. And the US wouldn't have ever gotten access to resources it needed to be a big economic player in the world.
My original point stands, a nation can’t succeed by being nice to other countries. I wish that weren’t true.

First, I already acknowledged the basic yet flawless logic of “war/conquest capitalism (acquiring maximal wealth and resources via the unmitigated use of power, force, dominance and oppression)” and so I’m not debating its utility, in and of itself. Second, I’m actively challenging your assertion that it’s the only means by which a nation or country can or should achieve “success” or in your exact words, “not be dirt.”

The notion that war/colonialist/imperialist driven empires are somehow necessary, in and of themselves, for peoples, civilizations and humanity in general to flourish and advance is a fallacy. For god’s sake, just because a certain way of doing business was the preferred and to varying degrees a rather effective method during major civilizational shifts and upheavals in human history, does not mean that it was the best and only method; and by best, I mean the most logical, efficient, productive or moral.

Yes, the societal and economic pressures associated with building a vast war/conquest machine indirectly helped to rapidly spur on major developments in science and technology, for example. However, conquest/colonialism/imperialism is not necessary for or even crucial to this advancement; the fact of the matter is that the technology developed in times of war conquest and empire expansion would still be possible to develop outside of them. Perhaps there just may have been a slower, more gradual progression (like the civilizations of many pre-literate, pre-colonial peoples) which could’ve come with various benefits—for example, implosions in the population size of urban centers and an inadequate means to handle them (regarding housing, sanitation, plague, etc…) proved to be the bane of several major empires.

True and momentous advancements in various civilizations occurred when groups of people came together and formed a common language and communication system, a system for governing, agriculture, etc. Many times, war/conquest machines on vast scales were created for the sake of GREED and SELF-INTEREST (in respects to the New World, gold, sugar and slaves were not essential to any one group’s innate survival, but were old/first world “luxuries”) and taking resources from others while immediately giving very little, besides slaughter and subjugation, in return. Ponder for a moment what might have happened if Hernán Cortés and Francisco Pizarro had, on behalf of the Spanish crown, offered to invest millions in European styled and led infrastructure projects to aid or “advance” the Aztec Empire and Incan Empire in return for their resources, skills, and technologies? How many wasted billions of dollars (in today’s money) spent developing elaborate war machines/efforts could have been better used to build literal and figurative bridges that would’ve enriched both parties greatly and equitably/more evenly, but over a longer, more gradual haul of time?

Perhaps the Aztecs and Incas could’ve sold lands to Spain in the same way that lands were bought and sold a few centuries later throughout the Americas between various European parties. But a significant issue at the heart of this quandry lay in the fact that colonialist/imperialist ideologies in the vein of racialist pseudoscience and religious backed notions of “godless savages” in need of civilization’s saving graces, immerged, in large part, to excuse and encourage European conquests and empire expansion. It was one thing to trade between European “equals” but the Indigenous peoples were supposed heathens and barbarians below reasoning and bargaining with (the same “savages” with amazing pyramids and monuments and their own calendars and effective agricultural systems). How convenient.


Would it be better if the USA and therefore its racism never existed? Definitely, definitely not. All goods have bad in them.

FALLACY ALERT--not all “bads” or “goods” are created equally and they sure as hell don’t always nullify or cancel each other out. The amount of positive benefits versus negative consequences and repercussions can be measured and quantified to varying degrees. As just a small reminder of the extent of the “bad,” millions and millions of Indigenous Americans were sickened, slaughtered and displaced and millions of black Africans were worked to death, raped, and/or lynched and denied certain “inalienable rights” over a period of centuries. To mitigate those atrocities as just “the cost of doing business” is fantastically sociopathic.

Wanderlust
31-10-17, 20:53
Anyways, I’ll give you my defintion racism in America because I think there are exaggerations and misconceptions of it. SLavery and legal racism only existed in the southern states. In the north, yes people were racist, but little racism was committed because there was hardly anyone to be racist towards. The north never became racially-diverse until the migration of Blacks from the South in the early 1900s. Then Blacks faced real discrimination and a poor start in life due to their past, however they faced little legal discrimination.…Racism in America has rarely come in the form of violence and laws. After slavery (which wasn't started because of racism but did make Blacks a slavery class), racism has mostly come in the form of feelings and unspoken social ranking. Blacks have been looked down on, been victim of prejudice, name-calling, and the like. And Blacks have in an unspoken way formed a lower class which isn't supposed to be affluent.When you look at racism from that perspective you see unlike what some claim America wasn’t built on racism. Herregud, the sheer IGNORANCE displayed here astounds and confounds me. This is why it is so intellectually draining to debate people who know little to nothing about something they consistently feel so inclined to give their unsupported and unsubstantiated opinions about (and usually in the tattered guise of facts). I have no more time and energy to waste debunking your easily destroyed, counterfactual, retellings of history and therefore I’ll let those better suited than the both of us bring you up to date. Sad.

1.) So “slavery and legal racism only existed in the Southern States,” huh? Ugh. Thank Princeton Historian Nell Painter Irvin via her book “Creating Black Americans: African-American History and Its Meanings, 1619 to the Present” for this brief and truncated history lesson of the injustices committed against Black Americans in the Northern US:


“In the northeastern states, blacks faced discrimination in many forms. Segregation was rampant, especially in Philadelphia, where African Americans were excluded from concert halls, public transportation, schools, churches, orphanages, and other places. Blacks were also forced out of the skilled professions in which they had been working. And soon after the turn of the century, African American men began to lose the right to vote -- a right that many states had granted following the Revolutionary War. Simultaneously, voting rights were being expanded for whites. New Jersey took the black vote away in 1807; in 1818, Connecticut took it away from black men who had not voted previously; in 1821, New York took away property requirements for white men to vote, but kept them for blacks. This meant that only a tiny percentage of black men could vote in that state. In 1838, Pennsylvania took the vote away entirely. The only states in which black men never lost the right to vote were Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont and Massachusetts.The situation in what was then the northwest region of the country was even worse. In Ohio, the state constitution of 1802 deprived blacks of the right to vote, to hold public office, and to testify against whites in court. Over the next five years, more restrictions were placed on African Americans. They could not live in Ohio without a certificate proving their free status, they had to post a $500 bond "to pay for their support in case of want," and they were prohibited from joining the state militia. In 1831 blacks were excluded from serving on juries and were not allowed admittance to state poorhouses, insane asylums, and other institutions. Fortunately, some of these laws were not stringently enforced, or it would have been virtually impossible for any African American to emigrate to Ohio.

In Illinois there were severe restrictions on free blacks entering the state, and Indiana barred them altogether. Michigan, Iowa, and Wisconsin were no friendlier. Because of this, the black populations of the northwestern states never exceeded 1 percent.

African Americans also faced violence at the hands of white northerners. Individual cases of assault and murder occured throughout the North, as did daily insults and harassment. Between 1820 and 1850, Northern blacks also became the frequent targets of mob violence. Whites looted, tore down, and burned black homes, churches, schools, and meeting halls. They stoned, beat, and sometimes murdered blacks. Philadelphia was the site of the worst and most frequent mob violence. City officials there generally refused to protect African Americans from white mobs and blamed blacks for inciting the violence with their "uppity" behavior.”

2.) So “Racism in America has rarely come in the form of violence and laws,” huh? You really should be embarrassed and ashamed at the level of wanton ignorance you have displayed here. I weep for whatever purported institution of higher learning you attend. You are too lazy to even use GOOGLE before you further destroy your credibility and intellectual honesty with such easily debunked claims. FOR SHAME. If you don’t care enough to do the most rudimentary research and investigating, DON’T SPEAK, DON’T COMMENT—it really is so simple. Stop embarrassing yourself. Please. The 2nd hand shame I feel for you is…overwhelming.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jim_Crow_law_examples_by_state
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Codes_(United_States)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-miscegenation_laws_in_the_United_States

3.) These links here just contain pertinent EMPIRICAL DATA and FACTS concerning the degree to which systemic and institutional racism actually harm and hinder Black Americans. Merry Christmas, you can never say I didn’t try to expand your consciousness:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/04/upshot/the-measuring-sticks-of-racial-bias-.html?_r=0 (https://d.docs.live.net/64b857d679f5eb19/Documents/%0bhttps:/www.nytimes.com/2015/01/04/upshot/the-measuring-sticks-of-racial-bias-.html?_r=0)
https://psmag.com/inequality-in-blac...6f9#.nx08gjz94 (https://psmag.com/inequality-in-black-and-white-14361b6386f9#.nx08gjz94)
http://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/...inorities.aspx (http://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/publications/minorities.aspx)
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2016/...-worlds-apart/ (http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2016/06/27/on-views-of-race-and-inequality-blacks-and-whites-are-worlds-apart/)
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...eat-recession/ (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/12/12/racial-wealth-gaps-great-recession/)
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...ations/361631/ (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/)


Would the Natives have made something more wealthy, more advanced, more beneficial to the world? Definitely not.

Huh? Why not? Ugh, cynically and willfully ignorant at worst and flat out racist at best. This is why you need to f-ing READ, and READ a lot, before you make such ridiculously untrue and intellectually suspect assertions. Or better yet, just stick to the technical aspects of population genetics. History and social anthropology don’t seem to be your thing.

If you actually want to better yourself and learn something (I remain skeptical), Let me recommend Will Durant’s “Our Oriental Heritage.” In this snippet alone, he unravels the flimsy social theory behind your woefully inept opinions:


“Looking backward on this brief survey of primitive culture, we find every element of civilization except writing and the state. All the modes of economic life are invented for us here: hunting and fishing, herding and tillage, transport and building, industry and commerce and finance. All the simpler structures of political life are organized: the clan, the family, the village community, and the tribe; freedom and order -- those hostile foci around which civilization revolves -- find their first adjustment and reconciliation; law and justice begin. The fundamentals of morals are established: the training of children, the regulation of the sexes, the inculcation of honor and decency, of manners and loyalty. The bases of religion are laid, and its hopes and terrors are applied to the encouragement of morals and the strengthening of the group. Speech is developed into complex languages, medicine and surgery appear, and modest beginnings are made in science, literature, and art. All in all it is a picture of astonishing creation, of form rising out of chaos, of one road after another being opened from the animal to the sage. Without these "savages," and their hundred thousand years of experiment and groping, civilization could not have been. We owe almost everything to them -- as a fortunate, and possibly degenerate, youth inherits the means to culture, security and ease through the long toil of an unlettered ancestry.”

Who is to say how Indigenous Americans would’ve grown and developed left strictly to their own devices? Furthermore, do you know nothing of the Mayas, Incas and Aztecs? These peoples each possessed kingdoms and empires, usually acquired through warfare and conquest just like most other expanding civilizations throughout history. Empires, in and of themselves, are the not active agents of advancement, but it is the advancement and growth themselves that spur on the creation of empires. Necessity is the mother of invention. I recommend a Pulitzer Prize winning book called “Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies” by Jared Diamond. It provides a healthy and modern take on why certain peoples have historically been at the top of the food chain and others at the bottom. Diamond's tackles the historically/commonly pervasive belief that Eurasian and North African civilizations have historically been successful in dominating the world based on some innate cultural and/or genetic superiority. Diamond posits that the achievement gaps in socio-political, cultural and financial power and technology between various human societies originate in environmental differences, which are amplified by "positive feedback loops." When cultural or genetic differences have favored Eurasians (for example, written language or the development among Eurasians of resistance to endemic diseases), he asserts that these advantages occurred because of the influence of geography on societies and cultures, and were not inherent in the Eurasian genomes."'This is the last time I'm going to say this: READ BEFORE YOU SPEAK.

Wanderlust
31-10-17, 21:11
I know, we could say that he is not naturally a kind and compassionate person, and yet due to his brilliant intellect he can understand his shortcomings and mold himself to be an ethical and law abiding citizen. Isn't it amazing and inspiring? He is also highly critical of himself, if not brutally honest. And it is not the end of the story. Being limited in "higher feelings" he still can teach others proper ways of behavior to live in harmony with each other and betterment of humankind in general. Most of it done by the way of logical thinking, deductions, predictions, causation, statistic, etc. He is rare yet inspiring example of nurture ruling over nature. If I didn't see it I wouldn't believe it, but he is real deal.

Thank you sincerely LeBrok, you are far too kind. Your laser sharp wit, intellect, humor, reliance on logic, balance, objectivity and good sense most definitely make me feel a kindredness in spirit towards you. The brilliance displayed by Maciamo, you, Angela, and the other moderators are the very reason I decided to join and participate in this forum. But unfortunately, it comes as no surprise to me that sometimes others just don't get it. :laughing:

And in addressing Mr. Fire Haired's arm chair diagnosis of my apparent psychopathy (which I never said or owned by the way), I'd just like to say In general usage they may not be the shiniest, the warmest or and the most expressive, but I do have feelings, and they can run rather deep for select individuals and people I identify with > my wife, my parents, one of my siblings (lol), other introverts, intellectuals, nerds, scientists, engineers, agnostics, Norse pagans, Swedes, Brooklynites, Scandinavians, Northwestern Europeans, cultures I enjoy and admire (from the Germans, Italians, Japanese, Brazilians, Irish, Jews, Black Americans)—the latter of which highlighting the deep respect and kinship I feel for both the world’s dominant alphas and the fighting underdogs deadlocked in an unending Nietzschean struggle, the “will to power”: (forgive this brief tangent)

For example, because of institutionalized bigotry and prejudice, historically Jews were pushed into accounting, finance, commerce, medicine and law in the same way that Black Americans were relegated to sports and entertainment and they are, at best, the masters of those domains and at worst, undeniable forces and influencers, which only illuminates how even more impressive/influential/powerful they could now be if they had never been relegated to limited spaces…but I digress. The most potent emotions I have are righteous indignation, contempt and anger, and especially in regard to systems and ideologies centered around irrationality, unfairness, inequality and injustice—I fully identify with people who say to the system “F*CK YOU, despite what you do, I’m still here, surviving and thriving.”
'
That being said, I tend not to approach life, the world, its people and all the inherent problems through an emotional lens, but rather a rational and clinical one. Just because I don’t cry for, hold hands with, hug and kiss my way through humanity, does not mean I’m some deranged person without a heart—if anything, my way of providing “emotional support” tends to come from helping people logically and systematically fix the very problems that make them need “emotional support” to begin with. I’m more concerned with how we are tied and interconnected in the abstract, macro, big picture sense, and doing what I can to lend to a greater balance and harmony that ultimately benefits us all—what matters most to me is what I do, my actions, and that they are based on a sound, fully conceived and executed logic that gels with my overarching life strategies and value systems, regardless of any feelings or a lack there of. For me, kindness and compassion are more cognitive and utilitarian functions than they are affectively emotional ones.

But I do feel a sense of pride and accomplishment when I uphold my “bigger,” more important worldviews via the “smaller” gestures (seeing as how I can sometimes disdain minute “details”—like tactfulness, petty pleasantries and affirmations--that may be more important to others than they are to me), like helping an elderly neighbor with her bags, tutoring disadvantaged immigrant kids in Swedish, and rubbing my wife’s feet, knowing that in their seemingly localized subjectivities, these gestures actively make the world better in the grand scheme of things. As of now, besides death and retreating to a secluded island that I can’t yet afford, living on this planet amongst other humans is my only tenable option and so I need for our interactions to work as tranquilly, smoothly and efficiently as possible for me to not be despondent, apathetic or pissed off all the time--yes, ultimately, my end motivations are completely and practically self-serving but I’m ok with this. From my point of view, feelings and sentimentality are irrelevant so long as the end goal is achieved, and when that end goal is world peace, harmony, stability and balance, only the relentlessly dumb, obscenely myopic, sociopathic, intellectually dishonest, hyperemotional or irrational will find fault with how that’s achieved versus aiding to ensure its achievement and successful implementation no matter what.

Angela
31-10-17, 21:24
Discuss all you want, but cut out the personal attacks, guys.

Wanderlust
31-10-17, 21:48
Let's just remember that this whole interaction started because YOU professed to be a “nice guy” but then immediately endorsed an ideology based on sociopathy, and yet you have the unmitigated GALL to call me a “wacko?” LOL Again, I’m almost left speechless at the lack of irony displayed here. Evidently these feelings you purport to possess don’t do anything for your value system—people like are you are the worst type of hypocrites. You claim to have feelings, but obviously, most of them are rather negative and destructive considering the ideologies you tend to endorse. How do these feelings you allegedly possess help better the world? Because if your values line up with the views you express, then YOU and those like YOU are the true dangers to the world. In all of my days, I've never seen anyone lack the ability to perceive context as much as you do, and that's saying a lot, considering the number of people with an ASD I work with.

Regardless, on is thread alone (despite the other times I've analytically thrashed you), I've already proven beyond a reasonable doubt the dearth of your intellectual rigor, acumen, honesty and integrity. This entire polemic was battered and pan fried in disingenuousness, strawman logic, half-truths, quarter-truths and flat out lies. For shame. Even if I extend to you the benefit of the doubt that you suffer from some sort of pervasive neurological and developmental disorder with a cognitive rigidity unlike anything I've ever encountered before, you really should heed your own advice and address the issues in the same way I've already addressed my own shortcomings.


As I recall he was once banned and also cursed at Angela.

Please stop mentioning my interactions with Angela while lacking a certain context evidently lost to you. But you’ve mentioned this before, so let’s address it. For one, I certainly like her better than you; debating her doesn’t make me want to claw my eyes out and follow up with a bleach cocktail just to make it all stop. Secondly, we may have had disagreements in the past (rooted in biases and blind spots I’m sure we both possess), but she is undeniably bright, articulate, coherent, well-informed, well-meaning, intellectually honest and therefore, a worthy sparring partner. Essentially, she’s the anti-you.

She also reminds me of my mom, who is one of the smartest and most caring people I know, and who’s also had touchy and intense arguments with me my entire life, resulting from our respective “blind spots.” I am the type who oftentimes unintentionally “tramples over innocents” in attempting to make a larger point—I can seem harsh, insensitive, standoffish and rather arrogant in dispensing what I believe to be the cold, hard truth, though for me arrogance is usually more of a reactive, defense mechanism than it is a default disposition. My mother is sensitive to people’s emotional well-being in a way that I am not. Her very foundation is informed by a notion of granting basic human decency, empathy and respect to everyone regardless of belief system and ideology, and obviously not to the exclusion of arguments and debates.

For me, when defending truth and logic, said “basic human decency” (in the immediate, one on one sense during an argument) is usually last on my list of priorities and especially when “triggered”—which occurs upon perceiving what I believe to be irrationality, intellectual dishonesty, willful ignorance, and the scapegoating of ‘underdogs’ (usually concerning larger, more sprawling, big picture ideas [the prevalence of gender bias, for example]) that, ironically, are intrinsically attached to what would/should constitute a lack of “basic human decency” from my personal worldview, which would therefore warrant a hostile response IMO, as opposed to politely and diplomatically adhering to the “lesser,” smaller notion of interpersonal “basic human decency” shown to a fellow debater (regardless of how nauseating) in the heat of battle. Under these circumstances, I tend to become irritated and even more cutthroat in my assessments.

But this is where I believe that my mother sometimes “misses the forest for the trees” in the sense that maintaining interpersonal courtesy in a one on one dialogue with a misogynist can’t be more important than someone making overarching claims that are violently anti-woman. From my point of view (which I am NOT saying is the correct one, only that is my own view), a misogynist is not worthy of interpersonal decency because his views are so vile and especially here in a public forum, who knows what vulnerable mind is watching from the sidelines, and might be susceptible to such idiocy. But from my mother’s point of view, it seems as if maintaining a certain interpersonal civility (also, giving the benefit of the doubt) in the face of vehement disagreement is crucial to possessing and exercising true freedom of expression and tolerance of human difference, a principle America was founded on, in fact. Both my mother and I agree that basic human decency is important, and I know that, in keeping with the above analogy, she’s an even greater feminist than I am, but regardless, the when, where, how and to what degree we apply the importance of “basic human decency” differs at times, which has usually been a point of contention between us.

I could not stand Tomenable, and in general, posters/people like him; I saw some of his views as hyper-aggressive, antagonistic, narrow-minded, disingenuous, barely tethered to reality, and bigoted towards the marginalized (again, I tend to focus on the macro view of ideas and their effects on people), even if he was more restrained in his interactions with me interpersonally (only barely); in effect, he was a bully IMO. I’ve always been the guy that bullies the bullies, particularly regarding matters of intellectual integrity, social theory and logic. It’s been my instinct and practice to stomp on certain people (read: their ideas) in protection of sound ideas, rationality and logic, FIRST, and “People,” big picture, capital P, second. In my world, the big picture from a pulled back and rational perspective, always wins the day as far as importance. Unfortunately, and unintentionally, at times, I tend to view people, small “p” (those we interact with on a more individual, interpersonal level) as more expendable/dispensable in preserving the intellectual integrity of the whole (but of an idea as it relates to its application towards people).

Now I don’t believe that Angela approved of or condoned Tomenable’s behavior; several times, she handily debunked his bullsh*t with warnings. But I think she empathetically and compassionately saw a bright but wayward kid who had the potential to grow, change and evolve, and so she therefore gave him the latitude to do this via a less aggressive and antagonistic confrontation of his belief system. And considering that I lacked that same tact and compassion towards him because I found his belief system and skewed “logic” to be more troubling and disturbing in the immediate, bigger, more important sense, we were somewhat at odds, even though, on the substance of the issues, we were more so in agreement.

People like her and my mom tend to be more idealistic and optimistic about people and their ability to change. I also believe in the ability for people to change but I tend to provoke that change from a harsher, more critical, more aggressive, less interpersonally amenable stance. I could be wrong, you’d have to ask her, but I think that she found my methods of interacting/debating more distasteful than my actual stances on the subject matter. My mother has had the same problem with me my whole life. Therefore, I hold no ill will towards Angela whatsoever—I routinely “like” her posts even if she doesn’t particularly care for me. Right or wrong, good or bad, ideas are more important to me than interpersonal disputes.

I have slightly improved though, which is why I genuinely (but prematurely) complimented you on what I perceived to be your intellectual growth, in order to counterbalance my subsequent stinging rebuke of your ideas. However, when you say unkind and untrue things about my person, then I feel unencumbered in resending the very pleasantries I didn’t want to extend in the first place.

Fire Haired14
31-10-17, 22:38
Discuss all you want, but cut out the personal attacks, guys.

Thanks. You know you still haven't apologized for insulting me countless times because I shared an opinion or more accurately you just don't like me.

AdeoF
31-10-17, 23:05
Wow I never knew people would go crazy in a forum room and do a long messages like that, hopefully it's just all banter. :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

Fire Haired14
01-11-17, 00:18
Wow I never knew people would go crazy in a forum room and do a long messages like that, hopefully it's just all banter. :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

I know lol. I don't even care that much about the topic of the debate but I stay in it because Wanderlust is so *wacko.*

Fire Haired14
01-11-17, 02:27
DNA forums attract so many assholes. Quite a few pleasant people do post at Anthrogencia like Jean Manco. Two types of assholes congregates in DNA forums. First, you have racists that would make Hitler proud (Tomebanle almost fits in this category). Then you have Ph.D., sociopathic, leftists who verbally attack you straight to hell if you use the word "race" or point out their biases, hate, and misconceptions.

Angela, doesn't fit in either category, I like her sometimes, dislike other times. Lebrok is usually legit and civil.

davef
01-11-17, 03:00
DNA forums attract so many assholes. Quite a few pleasant people do post at Anthrogencia like Jean Manco. Two types of assholes congregates in DNA forums. First, you have racists that would make Hitler proud (Tomebanle almost fits in this category). Then you have Ph.D., sociopathic, leftists who verbally attack you straight to hell if you use the word "race" or point out their biases, hate, and misconceptions.
Angela, doesn't fit in either category, I like her sometimes, dislike other times. Lebrok is usually legit and civil.
Amen.
Anthrogenica isn't bad when moderation steps in to end ridiculous topics such as "am I white?" and I wouldn't compare it to "the apricity", stormfront etc where the real sickos dwell.

And according to Angela, the head admin of the apricity used to live in a concrete box

Fire Haired14
01-11-17, 04:14
Wanderlust, **** you. Bring it on you barely human sociopathic *****. My life mission is to decimate the snobby, hate filled, marxists/leftists such as yourself. **** being an education major. You changed my mind.

LeBrok
01-11-17, 04:34
Wanderlust, **** you. Bring it on you barely human sociopathic *****. My life mission is to decimate the snobby, hate filled, marxists/leftists such as yourself. **** being an education major. You changed my mind. Like Jesus taught you?

Expredel
01-11-17, 05:28
Having said that, Sweden is not now, nor will it ever be, a 3rd world ghetto.
You'll get red-pilled sooner or later.

Fire Haired14
01-11-17, 05:30
Like Jesus taught you?

Lebrok, I'm understandably very angry right now. The continuing spread of the ideology Wanderlust promotes isn't good for society and needs to be stopped. I've complained about it since I was 5 years old but now I want to do something about it. It's a close relative to what I think is right. The flaws lay bare and obvious but too many people don't notice them, I want people to start noticing them. People are starting to notice it. That's why Donald Trump won! I'm not saying I support Donald Trump, I don't, I just really despise the people who hate him and his supporters (such as Wanderlust).

Angela
01-11-17, 05:50
This is what ideologues do: hurl insults at one another. When this is what happens, rational discourse is at an end.

For the first time in my life I'm worried about America. This isn't the way it was when I grew up.

I read an opinion piece by Razib Khan the other week where he said that most of the people who speak to him, on condition of anonymity, believe that there will be civil unrest in America pitting left against right, and that people will have to pick a side even if they don't agree with it.

I thought he was exaggerating, but maybe he's right. In a world where someone thinks he's doing the right thing by driving a van into people taking a stroll on Halloween or ramming a school bus, I guess anything is possible.

Fire Haired14
01-11-17, 06:04
I agree, Angela. Btw, I'm attacking the person Wanderlust not an ideaology. The dude's a jerk. In my last post, I was going to lay out how Wanderlust and leftists academics who obsess over intolerance like him also tend to be intolerant and continue this cycle of anger and hate in America.

davef
01-11-17, 06:15
This is what ideologues do: hurl insults at one another. When this is what happens, rational discourse is at an end.
For the first time in my life I'm worried about America. This isn't the way it was when I grew up.
I read an opinion piece by Razib Khan the other week where he said that most of the people who speak to him, on condition of anonymity, believe that there will be civil unrest in America pitting left against right, and that people will have to pick a side even if they don't agree with it.
I thought he was exaggerating, but maybe he's right. In a world where someone thinks he's doing the right thing by driving a van into people taking a stroll on Halloween or ramming a school bus, I guess anything is possible.
If things get worse I'm leaving. I'm not an honorable captain who sinks with the ship, I'm grabbin the first lifeboat I can get and getting the hell out.

Hmmmm..Argentina doesn't seem bad. I'll take Sardinia or anywhere that's rural (with internet of course ;)).

Wanderlust
01-11-17, 07:35
This is what ideologues do: hurl insults at one another. When this is what happens, rational discourse is at an end.

For the first time in my life I'm worried about America. This isn't the way it was when I grew up.

I read an opinion piece by Razib Khan the other week where he said that most of the people who speak to him, on condition of anonymity, believe that there will be civil unrest in America pitting left against right, and that people will have to pick a side even if they don't agree with it.

I thought he was exaggerating, but maybe he's right. In a world where someone thinks he's doing the right thing by driving a van into people taking a stroll on Halloween or ramming a school bus, I guess anything is possible.

Yes, today was another terribly bad day for "the human experiment," and that distresses me, but the last thing the world needs is for the relatively few idealists among us to lose hope and so I'd encourage you to not retreat into greater cynicism and despair. My mother tells me that the late 60s (massive street protests, a new president harboring intense distrust of the media, widespread worries about war overseas and economic hardships at home, heightened political/racial/social divisions) carried a similar amount of palpable turbulence and high anxiety felt deep in the gut but the sense of division did not feel as wide--to that I add that the late 60s also didn't have the internet (where hyper-partisanship can find a home and "militarize" and thrive in multiple corners) and international multimedia conglomerates stoking the flames on deeply partisan lines for several decades. Perhaps that lends to why today seems so much worse, in that the division that has long existed is now being thrust into high relief and exacerbated by more virulent, filthy stinking rich and powerful "ideologues." Internet Losers like Firehaired and myself are relatively harmless in the grand scheme of things, continue to ignore us, I implore you. :laughing:

Personally, I like to think that I'm less intractable than commonly perceived in that I'm willing to change positions if the information demands as much but at the same time, I don't know how better to address people who refuse to do the same! There are a lot of false balances, false equivalencies, false dichotomies, and overall falsehoods bandied about as "rational" and equally justified responses to actual, measurable truth (e.g., climate change). How does one argue and come to an agreement with people who deny science and what can be veritably measured in the world a la arguing that warmer temperatures just means "God is holding us a bit tighter." :petrified: I don't know, I honestly want the best for all of humanity, even those that disagree with me, but some (and I'm not saying I'm necessarily immune from this) are more comfortable cutting off their noses to spite their face.

Just remember that the history of the world is told in ebbs and flows and periods of great instability and relative peace and harmony. Until humanity somehow learns to get above our basest, most primitive instincts, this pattern will continue. But I do believe that it is a pattern, and therefore, the goings-on of today should not be seen as some "end of days" type foreshadowing. In times like this, I feel compelled to turn towards my creature comforts, and so I will be bingeing on my wife's company, Netflix and ice cream. Find comfort where you can.

Wanderlust
01-11-17, 08:08
Like Jesus taught you?

Precisely. But according to him, I'm the one consumed by psychopathic antipathy, right? :laughing:

This type of thinking is what galls me the most, and I can't use these words enough > intellectual dishonesty, hypocrisy and mental rigidity. And it's just tragic that people who think like this will rarely if ever realize they possess these traits, traits that run almost antithetically to the pursuit of truth, which in the grand scheme of things, should be far more objective than some subjectively make it out to be.

No matter how many times I say in different ways, illustrate and demonstrate that I'm far from some liberal marxist, he seems to quite literally be incapable of taking that information in, properly processing it, and adjusting his approach and thoughts about me. He immediately resorts to his own extremely jaundiced internal logic, which by the way, can objectively and effectively have no substantive basis in reality. But alas, he will never fully grasp that. So what to do with people like this? What does one do with someone who readily admitted that he says obnoxious things he barely cares about just for the sake of tr*lling and eliciting a reaction? I may be tactless, harsh and unrelenting in my delivery but my thinking is anything but "rigidly constructed" to just one way of seeing/doing things. I'm the one arguing for peace, harmony, balance, stability, tolerance and overcoming our basest instincts, instincts I possess in spades, NO MATTER WHAT, and even outed myself just to prove how certain worldviews are worthy of rigorous pursuit, even if they go against our core instincts. But somehow, in his estimation, I am the danger to the world that must be stopped? The only thing that's remotely worrying about his intellectual ineptitude and inability to entertain multiple perspectives is that these people somehow find themselves waist deep in American politics. :rolleyes2: Terrifyingly hilarious. :embarassed:

Wanderlust
01-11-17, 13:08
I agree, Angela. Btw, I'm attacking the person Wanderlust not an ideaology. The dude's a jerk. In my last post, I was going to lay out how Wanderlust and leftists academics who obsess over intolerance like him also tend to be intolerant and continue this cycle of anger and hate in America.




You ever hear of something called the paradox of tolerance? I'm going to go ahead and assume not.


Philosopher Karl Popper defined the paradox in 1945 in The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1.



Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.


What’s always so amazingly disingenuous and insidious about the right’s railing against “PC Culture,” the horrors of supposed “intolerant” liberalism, etc… is that


1.) There is usually some glaring hypocrisy afoot. For example, some (usually the loudest amongst them) conservatives will whine and cry about the freedom of speech being stifled on college campuses and cry about the removal of racist, traitorous Confederate monuments built to intimidate black people AND WITH NO SENSE OF IRONY, still cry and moan about the unAmericaness of NFL players who take the knee in expressing their freedom of speech. HUH???

2.) Liberals are painted as intolerant because they resist traitorous Confederates (who lost and whose asses we kicked over 150 years ago) and Nazi sympathizers (who lost and whose asses we kicked in WW2) walking around with punk as* tiki torches, targeting elderly people in churches and college students, while yelling “Blood and soil” and “Jews will not replace us!” SERIOUSLY??? The right seems to want intolerant liberals to let them espouse and carry out beliefs that are, innately, centered on bigotry and prejudice and that call for (directly and indirectly) the disenfranchisement and/or slaughter of innocents.

Somehow in some of their delusional brains, not letting Alt-Right loser and tittyboy Richard Spencer speak at a university is on the same level of egregiousness as being intolerant of people who think gays should be denied service because of their sexuality; who think transwomen should be forced to use the men’s restroom and even worse, shouldn't be allowed in the military; who think creationism and climate denial should be taught in schools because it’s just as valid any scientific analysis; who think government should be able to dictate what women do with their bodies (even though these same people supposedly hate big government). I could almost literally go on and on with the double standards and hypocrisy (more often than not, confined to the right) when it comes to the alleged intolerance of liberals.

The thing is, there is MOST definitely an argument to be made that liberalism can go too far in stifling debate and discussion about certain hot button issues. But the problem is that many of the right deal in false balances, where they think that their positions deserve to be voiced even when the underpinnings of their rationale are counterfactual and flat out lies. It is more than acceptable and reasonable to take two different truths, based on factual/properly contextualized data, and have a hard debate, and absolutely unacceptable to let absurdist, conspiratorial, batsh*t ideas be given the same platform alongside verified, actionable empirical data and cogent, reality based arguments. How some don’t get the inherent fallacies with these double standards, I’ll never know. For example, it’s fine to be open to debating travel restrictions from areas known to be terrorist/recruitment hotspots but when most of the countries on the ban list haven’t produced a terrorist that’s actually harmed us in decades, if at all, and suspiciously exempts countries that have (Saudi Arabia, first and foremost), then THAT’S A PROBLEM. But have Fox news tell it, that’s all perfectly rationale. Conservatives need to look to themselves when it comes to the stifling of truth and the embrace of paranoid, fear based, anti-rational hyperemotionality.

davef
01-11-17, 15:15
LeBrok said:
"PS. Last weekend I had a dinner with older couple who are organizing a small inclosed community on one of British Columbia islands, with aim to hid from this crazy and cruel world. Both with master degrees! Their only disappointment was that their kids chose to "enjoy" their family lives in big multicultural cities, like New York and London. Also they looked at me as I was the crazy one. ;) The crazy, optimistic, lost in the world, blind liberal."

That's a great idea that works both ways! They'll be in an enclosed space free from all that scares them and they won't slow us down.

They can do what they want and enforce Biblical Law where women who read are burned at the stake for being "witches", gay men or women are stoned to death, and technology is coined as magic and against the will of God.

They can also enforce additional extreme right wing policies such as illegalizing gay marriage, equal pay for men and women, being Muslim, having non-Northern European ancestry, disliking Trump and his team (most of which is headed for jail lol) and being tolerant of others.

Jovialis
01-11-17, 15:43
This is what ideologues do: hurl insults at one another. When this is what happens, rational discourse is at an end.
For the first time in my life I'm worried about America. This isn't the way it was when I grew up.
I read an opinion piece by Razib Khan the other week where he said that most of the people who speak to him, on condition of anonymity, believe that there will be civil unrest in America pitting left against right, and that people will have to pick a side even if they don't agree with it.
I thought he was exaggerating, but maybe he's right. In a world where someone thinks he's doing the right thing by driving a van into people taking a stroll on Halloween or ramming a school bus, I guess anything is possible.

I was out yesterday, and saw all the happy kids trick or treating, with their families. Then when I heard about that story, it truly disgusted me…

Ever since my mother and sister got into a car accident by some guy texting and driving; it really made me hyper-aware of human pain and suffering. Thankfully they survived, but were hurt badly. It really had changed my thinking; for example, violent action movies and music seemed far less appealing to me. It boggles my mind how anyone would be able to harm innocent people intentionally. Which is why I have no remorse in justice being served to the people who would commit these horrible acts.

Dibran
01-11-17, 16:05
I've made a few friends from Poland during my summer vacations in Albania and I noticed that they paid attention to physical characteristics a lot. They continuously pointed out and asked me if I'm sure that the children playing on the beach or staying in our hotel and nearby residences were Albanian due to the very high amount of light eyes.

I had to reassure them that although some speak English, German, Italian, Greek, or Swedish, their parents are indeed Albanian. It was very strange for them.


As for Anthrogenica, I joined there recently to ask questions on genetics and I have to say that so far is the friendliest forum I've seen. Here there are many reputable posters but mostly inactive unfortunately.


Yea I feel Anthrogenica has its "apricity like" sections, but it does have well educated discussions. Apricity became too toxic. I post sparingly. Well majority of us Albanians are closer to Italians and Greeks in complexion etc. It shouldn't matter if someone is dark or light. Its evolution.

Dibran
01-11-17, 16:12
i never seen this "racist on italians" and I have been on the site for over 2 years.............there are a lot of Italians that post on the site, especially south italians
.
.
I think you have an agenda and dreamt the whole thing up

There are a few I have noticed, and they were Italian. One of which "Oroborous" or however it is spelled is one of them. The Portuguese guys who think theyre Nordics(Viriatio/Some other guy). Then you have characters Like Bosniensis and others who think all of Europe including ancient Rome and Greece was Slavic and some huge conspiracy exists. Keep in mind all these users post on the apricity. One(Dorkymon I believe) has spewed hate with others on Apricity. Yet most of them on Anthro act "civil" probably only because they would get banned. As far as Anthrogenica goes, whilst Italian users among others(even Albanians) are civil, you can find them with their same username of Apricity spreading the nonsense OP mentions.

Dibran
01-11-17, 16:27
This is what ideologues do: hurl insults at one another. When this is what happens, rational discourse is at an end.

For the first time in my life I'm worried about America. This isn't the way it was when I grew up.

I read an opinion piece by Razib Khan the other week where he said that most of the people who speak to him, on condition of anonymity, believe that there will be civil unrest in America pitting left against right, and that people will have to pick a side even if they don't agree with it.

I thought he was exaggerating, but maybe he's right. In a world where someone thinks he's doing the right thing by driving a van into people taking a stroll on Halloween or ramming a school bus, I guess anything is possible.

To be fair, what America is becoming is a symptomatic series of events that have been in the making for some time. I mean African Americans got their civil rights not too long ago, and many of the same supporters of segregation or even slavery, still draw breath, and even positions of status. The same ignorance is being passed down to their children. So, while things are definitely taking a turn for the worst, it has been on that steady track for some time already.

firetown
01-11-17, 16:42
You ever hear of something called the paradox of tolerance? I'm going to go ahead and assume not.

Thanks for the assumption, but I have. And when fighting intolerance, it is also important not to allow oneself to get so one-sided, that we only look at things from our own angle, overlook the flaws in our own camps and demonize based on boxes you believe people to fit into.

In other words: Your "loser and tittyboy" post is way out of balance. And when this is one's state of mind, it might be good to first accept that everyone looks at life based on their own past experiences. Then and only then will it be possible for you to actually contribute by sharing what your views might be. Otherwise you will just come off as an extremist. And extremism is bad... from every angle.

Wheal
01-11-17, 16:45
We are all proud of our ancestors, but that does not necessarily make us racist. We are all searching for that one ancestor that gave us our desire to learn. We probably all have an ancestor that was a slave at one time or another to another culture. It doesn’t really matter what the color of their skin was. They were mistreated and probably worked to death. The descendants of these people tried to make a better life for their children.

Yes, in the ‘60’s we had many race problems. On streets, in schools, and the effect was to give some children prejudices against other cultures. How close would one girl have to stand next to another girl to have hair flipped over their shoulder and cut the face of the other girl? Hair? Really? Over-reaction was most probably the cause.

In grade school in the late 50’s and early 60’s I grew up learning that all races were equal and should equally be treated with respect. I was horrified when I heard a person from one race make a derogatory remark to, or about, a person of another race. I never knew anything about racism until I went to a public school in 8th grade.

Genealogy is my haven of racial equality. How privileged we are, that our ancestors were able to survive, and gave us life. Our ancestors ALL survived the plagues, the horrors of being conquered and conquering, the horror of being subjected to unimaginable punishments, starvation. We are here. Yes, this is a sophomoric comment. But sometimes the most simple answer is the right answer.

Angela
01-11-17, 16:46
@Dibran,
Don't be so sure the ones with "Italian" names are indeed Italian. If "Claudio" is really Italian I'll eat my hat. Half of them are Sikeliot socks talking to each other.

The number of Americans who are still segregationist is extremely small. Racism is not the defining ideological split. What is driving the split is the post modernist liberalism described above. It's toxic.

Not so long ago Democrats and Republicans were able to recognize the good will in the other and negotiate for the good of the country. That ended long ago, long before Trump. He's a symptom, not the cause.

@Jovialis,
I found out about it because my daughter was in the city visiting her boyfriend. She had taken the afternoon off. His apartment is about a five minute walk from where it happened. I begged her to come home, but their idea of being safe was to go to another friend's apartment in Chelsea! I think it was foolhardy, but the days are gone when I can make her decisions for her.

This is utter insanity, but it may become the "new normal".

See: Political polarization
https://gnxp.nofe.me/2017/10/23/political-polarization-in-the-twitter-sphere-and-how-it-will-end/

firetown
01-11-17, 16:58
We are all proud of our ancestors, but that does not necessarily make us racist. We are all searching for that one ancestor that gave us our desire to learn. We probably all have an ancestor that was a slave at one time or another to another culture. It doesn’t really matter what the color of their skin was. They were mistreated and probably worked to death. The descendants of these people tried to make a better life for their children.

Yes, in the ‘60’s we had many race problems. On streets, in schools, and the effect was to give some children prejudices against other cultures. How close would one girl have to stand next to another girl to have hair flipped over their shoulder and cut the face of the other girl? Hair? Really? Over-reaction was most probably the cause.

In grade school in the late 50’s and early 60’s I grew up learning that all races were equal and should equally be treated with respect. I was horrified when I heard a person from one race make a derogatory remark to, or about, a person of another race. I never knew anything about racism until I went to a public school in 8th grade.

Genealogy is my haven of racial equality. How privileged we are, that our ancestors were able to survive, and gave us life. Our ancestors ALL survived the plagues, the horrors of being conquered and conquering, the horror of being subjected to unimaginable punishments, starvation. We are here. Yes, this is a sophomoric comment. But sometimes the most simple answer is the right answer.

I am always surprised when I see posts promoting nationalism on a forum like this. If there is anything people should have been able to learn is to look for genetic similarities across man-made borders. I guess obsession is hard to cure.

Wanderlust
01-11-17, 18:44
I was born curious and open.

I was born curious and open to ideas, but unfortunately, not to people really. That has always required work and effort on my part...unless, they're somewhat to very much like me, of course. lol


With many of them I can't have a sane conversation anymore, unless I join their bitterness, complaining, negativism, criticism, and the rest of this toxic culture.

Coincidentally, did you know that the average age of a FOX viewer is 68? lol That means half of their viewing base is OVER 68. I think older, more conservative people ironically take a certain comfort in having their fears and concerns validated and affirmed;perhaps it makes them feel less alone and psychologically isolated in an ever changing world.

When I was a kid, especially, I loved to be around "old people." I always found them to be rather reserved, stationary and somehow easy to talk to. lol And they tended to reminisce fondly and grumpily (which I've always related to) about the old days and how things had changed, which fascinated me about the world they used to inhabit. Some of my best childhood memories involve staying at my Grandparents' home (which is now my own personal vacation getaway space) all the way in the north of Sweden--during a warm spring in Stockholm, if I still wanted more Winter, I'd go up there. lol; it is an eerily beautiful place, so isolated, so wild, so far removed from people (well, it used to be)--for a long time, the nearest neighbors were a moose, a reindeer and a few beavers. lol I come from a family of introverts and so everyone values quiet and space and privacy and alone time. The loudest noises would come from the birds, an occasional wolf, the river, the wind, the rain and the trees bristling. I was the only person my grandfather allowed into his "tinkering" shed; he was a madman like I am and taught me that it was OK for me to have an external "brain" of sorts that I could step into when I needed to be alone with my thoughts.

But within the past decade, they started to build these high end condos, but could barely find anyone who wanted to stay up there (lol) and so they started to use them to house refugees. At first, I was extremely angry and I honestly felt violated, like my private sanctuary, my home, was being taken away from me by unwanted newcomers who wouldn't appreciate it (very selfish and self-centered, admittedly). But emotions, even "deep ones," are fleeting for me and eventually, a cool, calm head takes over. I've always been one to confront my anxieties head on and so once my Grandparents' home became mine, I started volunteering to conduct "Swedish wilderness immersion excursions" with the new immigrants living nearby. lol Most of them came from hot places so unlike the weird, cold North (the people up there are...amazingly interesting to say the least) that I decided to introduce them to our strange world, to bring some much needed levity and connection to both my life and theirs. Some refer to me affectionately as Yeti, because a few of them spotted a big, barefoot, long haired beast moving around in the distance at dusk and it was just me exercising outdoors. :laughing::laughing::laughing: I try to encourage people, introverts, old people, introverted old people, to face their fears head on and they might be pleasantly surprised and find that the new and unknown is usually not as scary as they think it is.


I just pity the young people who at their prime are already afraid of the world. What would be their future?

An Alt-Right *****, probably steeped in IT/Computer science, super weird but they call it "edgy," never been touched by a live girl, occupying someone's basement (which they delusionally believe is their version of The Bat Cave).


PS. Last weekend I had a dinner with older couple who are organizing a small inclosed community on one of British Columbia islands, with aim to hid from this crazy and cruel world. Both with master degrees! Their only disappointment was that their kids chose to "enjoy" their family lives in big multicultural cities, like New York and London. Also they looked at me as I was the crazy one. ;) The crazy, optimistic, lost in the world, blind liberal.

lol Never give in Lebrok! People like you give me hope. Automation robotics is my absolute favorite hobby (one of my degrees is in Robotics engineering technology) and I use my vacation home in the north to work on and store all of my cyborg limbs and corpses (my wife hates when I refer to them like this lol) and it used to embarrass me to admit that, at times, I used to feel more connected to machines than actual people. When I was a kid, I got into robotics because I was lonely and thought it would be so cool to build the perfect friend and companion, who would understand me. I've noticed that since greatly expanding my social world, though I will always love my robots (and will continue to design and refine them in case of some Zombie apocalypse), they've become less important to me. I feel like Benjamin Button, the guy who ages backwards--started out as an old man and gradually became young and adventurous! :laughing:

davef
01-11-17, 19:15
Wanderlust, I find it awesome you're into robotics and your got some cool side projects going on. I almost wish I got into that field, physics goes well with me as well as math.


And Angela, Dibran,

I question how much longer sikeliot plans to keep up with his Sicilian obsession and his constant Sicilian gedmatch posts, I think some degree of intervention is needed, imo.

Dibran
01-11-17, 21:50
@Dibran,
Don't be so sure the ones with "Italian" names are indeed Italian. If "Claudio" is really Italian I'll eat my hat. Half of them are Sikeliot socks talking to each other.

The number of Americans who are still segregationist is extremely small. Racism is not the defining ideological split. What is driving the split is the post modernist liberalism described above. It's toxic.

Not so long ago Democrats and Republicans were able to recognize the good will in the other and negotiate for the good of the country. That ended long ago, long before Trump. He's a symptom, not the cause.

@Jovialis,
I found out about it because my daughter was in the city visiting her boyfriend. She had taken the afternoon off. His apartment is about a five minute walk from where it happened. I begged her to come home, but their idea of being safe was to go to another friend's apartment in Chelsea! I think it was foolhardy, but the days are gone when I can make her decisions for her.

This is utter insanity, but it may become the "new normal".

See: Political polarization
https://gnxp.nofe.me/2017/10/23/political-polarization-in-the-twitter-sphere-and-how-it-will-end/

I can agree there, but we can't deny all these things are symptoms of decline. With regards to Italian users, I have no idea who Claudio is, but I know Ororborous, and the two Portuguese dudes(one of which is Viriatio) who think they are Nordics or something. Many post on both Apricity and Anthrogenica. One user on Anthro who is civil there is pretty toxic and racist on theapricity. I only recognize a few user names from here on those sites.

Wanderlust
01-11-17, 21:56
I absolutely agree with the thrust of your comment but I believe this statement deserves a hermeneutic of suspicion...


We are all proud of our ancestors, but that does not necessarily make us racist.

I, for one, am NOT proud of all of my ancestors. I know for a fact that I come from an extremely long line of slavers, from the Viking age up until the middle of the 19th century. Why would I be "proud" of people who dealt in misery, brutality and subjugation? Now whereas I am not proud of them, I most certainly accept them because I have no choice. They occupy a part of my heritage and I would not be here if it weren't for them. I also feel no guilt because the actions of my ancestors are not my own. It is what it is, but IMO, possessing "pride" in them suggests something else.

In general, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of taking pride in the exploits of others;I'd rather take pride in what I've built and accomplished for myself. Any pride I have as a person is not attached to ancestors I never knew, because I had no choice in that--the thing is, if you can take pride in the good, then you must accept the bad as well and I'm not willing to do that. There are ancestors that I can appreciate and admire, but taking pride in them is something different; to me, that suggests that my own self worth is caught up in the doings of someone else and I'm unwilling to accept the consequences and repercussions that come along with that, good or bad. But in my experience, most people aren't willing to be that fair and honest about it--they want all of the glory and none of the shame.

And tangentially, though this certainly doesn't apply to everyone, it's no wonder that many who form the foundation of these far right, alt-right, nationalist movements are perpetually insecure and afraid, un/under-educated, unemployed, and usually have nothing going on for themselves; therefore, their only or primary source of pride is rooted in vague, malleable cultural abstractions of nationalism or achievements by others who share their ancestry and bloodlines; they piggyback off of the exploits and achievements of others, as if that gives them value and worth, too. And they are wrong. Just because Bach and Nietzsche were brilliant, doesn't mean all Germans are. Just because I come from people who may have been "great," does not mean I'm great by extension? Why should it? Because on the flip side, if I come from someone who was a piece of sh*t, does that make me a POS also? I think not.

Dibran
01-11-17, 21:56
Wanderlust, I find it awesome you're into robotics and your got some cool side projects going on. I almost wish I got into that field, physics goes well with me as well as math.


And Angela, Dibran,

I question how much longer sikeliot plans to keep up with his Sicilian obsession and his constant Sicilian gedmatch posts, I think some degree of intervention is needed, imo.

Honestly most of his obsession(at least from what I notice) is his constant attempts at proving all of Greece and had heavy Slavic impact. I have seen a few on Sicilians too(as he uses this as a proxy for classical age Greeks).

Fire Haired14
01-11-17, 23:24
Now whereas I am not proud of them (ancestors), I most certainly accept them because I have no choice.

There are ancestors that I can appreciate and admire, but taking pride in them is something different; to me, that suggests that my own self worth is caught up in the doings of someone else and I'm unwilling to accept the consequences and repercussions that come along with that, good or bad.

Ancestors often represent more to people than blood. To many, they represent the ancestors of one's society and culture. The people who laid the foundations of one's society and culture. For example, while I have no blood relation to the big players in American history and most of my ancestors didn't live in America before 1880, I see 16th and 17th and 18th and 19th America as ancestors.

Many "white people" (whites in America and Europeans) are angry at leftist, like yourself, because while rightfully calling for better treatment of the people disenfranchised by westerners you curse the whole essence of the United State's forefathers, of Britain's forefathers, and so on. You credit them for the wrongs they committed but don't seem to credit them for the honestly greater number of goods they committed. White/western people are singled out for the displacement of Native Americans but not the industrial revolution and almost all recent technological advancements, not for modern democracy and liberalism, not for essentially creating the modern civilization that countries like Japan and South Kore copied.

The evils committed by the United States or Britain or whoever in the past isn't all who they were. If you single out a group's ancestors only for the bad things they did, only point out how their traditional culture is bad, guess what they're not going to like you.

From the media and school (white) Americans hear lots about evils the white man committed but almost nothing about the good he did. I'm a witnesses of this. In 2nd grade I told my parents my teacher "hates white people." Like I said earlier, I've been annoyed by the leftist interpretation of history you adire to for a long time, it's something I've seen the error in since I was very young. Class went back and forth between glorious African or Indian cultures and the evils of the white man.

History class got less bias in later years, however "the evil white man" continued to be one of the biggest themes. While, the white man was often singled out for crimes, he was never singled out for achievements or inventions. American frontiers men were singled out as "white American frontiersmen" when slavery or native American replacement is discussed but when we discuss their achievements then they just become "American frontiersmen."Also, every chapter included a special section about glorious African American culture and women who succeeded against all odds.

I'm not a white nationalist, however, I do value western culture and the people in the past who made significant contributions to what it is today. I value the British Colonist and American frontiersmen and I even value Christopher Columbus. I don't know if you call this pride.

Nowadays, if you dare claim modern civilization comes from Europe more than anywhere you else you will be called a racist and probably receive a lecture about the Mayans and the ancient Egyptians and so on. It's just a fact. The Academia we know today, the thing that educated you and other liberals, was more or less single handily created by Europeans. Today you can praise the Mayans or Islamic culture but can't praise European culture.

Now, I'm not saying history books should say "white people are so great. They taught Japan how to make airplanes and spread democracy and liberalism around the world." No not all. All I want is more level headiness. With more level headiness I beleive you'll have less racist Europeans and Americans. Not a whole lot less but less.

LeBrok
02-11-17, 05:46
I was born curious and open to ideas, but unfortunately, not to people really. That has always required work and effort on my part...unless, they're somewhat to very much like me, of course. lol



Coincidentally, did you know that the average age of a FOX viewer is 68? lol That means half of their viewing base is OVER 68. I think older, more conservative people ironically take a certain comfort in having their fears and concerns validated and affirmed;perhaps it makes them feel less alone and psychologically isolated in an ever changing world.

When I was a kid, especially, I loved to be around "old people." I always found them to be rather reserved, stationary and somehow easy to talk to. lol And they tended to reminisce fondly and grumpily (which I've always related to) about the old days and how things had changed, which fascinated me about the world they used to inhabit. Some of my best childhood memories involve staying at my Grandparents' home (which is now my own personal vacation getaway space) all the way in the north of Sweden--during a warm spring in Stockholm, if I still wanted more Winter, I'd go up there. lol; it is an eerily beautiful place, so isolated, so wild, so far removed from people (well, it used to be)--for a long time, the nearest neighbors were a moose, a reindeer and a few beavers. lol I come from a family of introverts and so everyone values quiet and space and privacy and alone time. The loudest noises would come from the birds, an occasional wolf, the river, the wind, the rain and the trees bristling. I was the only person my grandfather allowed into his "tinkering" shed; he was a madman like I am and taught me that it was OK for me to have an external "brain" of sorts that I could step into when I needed to be alone with my thoughts.

But within the past decade, they started to build these high end condos, but could barely find anyone who wanted to stay up there (lol) and so they started to use them to house refugees. At first, I was extremely angry and I honestly felt violated, like my private sanctuary, my home, was being taken away from me by unwanted newcomers who wouldn't appreciate it (very selfish and self-centered, admittedly). But emotions, even "deep ones," are fleeting for me and eventually, a cool, calm head takes over. I've always been one to confront my anxieties head on and so once my Grandparents' home became mine, I started volunteering to conduct "Swedish wilderness immersion excursions" with the new immigrants living nearby. lol Most of them came from hot places so unlike the weird, cold North (the people up there are...amazingly interesting to say the least) that I decided to introduce them to our strange world, to bring some much needed levity and connection to both my life and theirs. Some refer to me affectionately as Yeti, because a few of them spotted a big, barefoot, long haired beast moving around in the distance at dusk and it was just me exercising outdoors. :laughing::laughing::laughing: I try to encourage people, introverts, old people, introverted old people, to face their fears head on and they might be pleasantly surprised and find that the new and unknown is usually not as scary as they think it is.



An Alt-Right *****, probably steeped in IT/Computer science, super weird but they call it "edgy," never been touched by a live girl, occupying someone's basement (which they delusionally believe is their version of The Bat Cave).



lol Never give in Lebrok! People like you give me hope. Automation robotics is my absolute favorite hobby (one of my degrees is in Robotics engineering technology) and I use my vacation home in the north to work on and store all of my cyborg limbs and corpses (my wife hates when I refer to them like this lol) and it used to embarrass me to admit that, at times, I used to feel more connected to machines than actual people. When I was a kid, I got into robotics because I was lonely and thought it would be so cool to build the perfect friend and companion, who would understand me. I've noticed that since greatly expanding my social world, though I will always love my robots (and will continue to design and refine them in case of some Zombie apocalypse), they've become less important to me. I feel like Benjamin Button, the guy who ages backwards--started out as an old man and gradually became young and adventurous! :laughing: Great post, I wish I had time to respond fully. You must be at your cabin now, having all the time to read and write. :) There is definitely Benjamin Button in me too. I'm more fit than ever in my 50s, healthier too, and enjoying life more. Most achievements accomplished from being active and proactive, and not passive and complacent with what mother nature gave me. I'm vigorously defending my youthfulness and I pushed my old age (living in pain and immobility) at least in my fantasy world, to 110! Still have enough interests and hobbies to fill few more lifetimes. You say too optimistic, I say Hell Yes, but can't be blamed for not trying, and turning the odds my way. Hopefully future medicine can give a helping hand too.

I like robotics myself, though never sinned with manual creativity. Just impatiantly awaiting their arrival. I have so much to do for them. :)
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27140-Robot-anyone-!-New-technological-revolution-is-near/page2?p=476072&viewfull=1#post476072

And not to be blamed for eternal optimism, I see oncoming social and economic problems, world problems, connected to Age of Robots:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34400-Robots-are-destroying-cashflow-in-economy
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32304-What-would-people-do-when-robots-produce-everything

PS. I have a need for a smart robotic sprinkler head. A sprinkler head with camera and microphone attached to it. And of course WiFi/Bluetooth connection to a computer. The most important part would be the smart AI software on it. Software, which could recognize variety of animals. This could be used to protect our gardens from nature wanting to eat all the good veggies, to scare away squirrels or a deer, with short strong bursts of water. Perhaps also to keep away uninvited guests like racoons, and keep an eye on kids playing in the yard. To chase away woodpecker knocking at your house walls at 5AM. It might serve as a security camera too. It can play with kids during hot summer days. Well, at the end, if it is really bored, it could water the garden too, lol, with intelligent well measured/efficient amount of water and well aimed directional sprays.
Some of these functions could be done with little automated drone too, AI drone. The Yard Defender. Davef could write AI program for it, yes? ;)

davef
02-11-17, 14:58
Great post, I wish I had time to respond fully. You must be at your cabin now, having all the time to read and write. :) There is definitely Benjamin Button in me too. I'm more fit than ever in my 50s, healthier too, and enjoying life more. Most achievements accomplished from being active and proactive, and not passive and complacent with what mother nature gave me. I'm vigorously defending my youthfulness and I pushed my old age (living in pain and immobility) at least in my fantasy world, to 110! Still have enough interests and hobbies to fill few more lifetimes. You say too optimistic, I say Hell Yes, but can't be blamed for not trying, and turning the odds my way. Hopefully future medicine can give a helping hand too.

I like robotics myself, though never sinned with manual creativity. Just impatiantly awaiting their arrival. I have so much to do for them. :)
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27140-Robot-anyone-!-New-technological-revolution-is-near/page2?p=476072&viewfull=1#post476072

And not to be blamed for eternal optimism, I see oncoming social and economic problems, world problems, connected to Age of Robots:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34400-Robots-are-destroying-cashflow-in-economy
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32304-What-would-people-do-when-robots-produce-everything

PS. I have a need for a smart robotic sprinkler head. A sprinkler head with camera and microphone attached to it. And of course WiFi/Bluetooth connection to a computer. The most important part would be the smart AI software on it. Software, which could recognize variety of animals. This could be used to protect our gardens from nature wanting to eat all the good veggies, to scare away squirrels or a deer, with short strong bursts of water. Perhaps also to keep away uninvited guests like racoons, and keep an eye on kids playing in the yard. To chase away woodpecker knocking at your house walls at 5AM. It might serve as a security camera too. It can play with kids during hot summer days. Well, at the end, if it is really bored, it could water the garden too, lol, with intelligent well measured/efficient amount of water and well aimed directional sprays.
Some of these functions could be done with little automated drone too, AI drone. The Yard Defender. Davef could write AI program for it, yes? ;)

Lol yeah I admit, there's room for improvement in terms of my AI knowledge, I'd have to revisit Baysian probability, A*, and all the other algorithmic/linear algebraic bundles of fun in my hopefully not-too-overly-obsolete AI textbook.

firetown
02-11-17, 20:08
We are all proud of our ancestors,
I've thought about this for a bit and think that this is why the world is in such turmoil. It can lead to glorification and justification of wrongdoing. The example of this can be seen in behind the scenes footage of "Hitler's children"where Niklas Frank, the only really outspoken one and son of Nazi war criminal Hans Frank has been repeatedly attacked by the other Nazi children.

Angela
02-11-17, 22:02
Anything can be distorted. There's no human institution or human activity or human situation which can't be distorted. If you can think something really horrible that a person could do, trust me, there's someone somewhere, sometime, who did it.

That doesn't de-value the initial feeling, activity or situation.

There's nothing wrong with Wheal's comment: there's a lot to be proud of in every culture, and a lot to deplore. Only someone verging toward pathology doesn't recognize the latter.

firetown
02-11-17, 22:26
I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, but I disagree with the "all" part. Not all are and not all should be. At least not of all aspects of all ancestries.

davef
03-11-17, 06:45
@Dibran,
Don't be so sure the ones with "Italian" names are indeed Italian. If "Claudio" is really Italian I'll eat my hat. Half of them are Sikeliot socks talking to each other.

The number of Americans who are still segregationist is extremely small. Racism is not the defining ideological split. What is driving the split is the post modernist liberalism described above. It's toxic.

Not so long ago Democrats and Republicans were able to recognize the good will in the other and negotiate for the good of the country. That ended long ago, long before Trump. He's a symptom, not the cause.

@Jovialis,
I found out about it because my daughter was in the city visiting her boyfriend. She had taken the afternoon off. His apartment is about a five minute walk from where it happened. I begged her to come home, but their idea of being safe was to go to another friend's apartment in Chelsea! I think it was foolhardy, but the days are gone when I can make her decisions for her.

This is utter insanity, but it may become the "new normal".

See: Political polarization
https://gnxp.nofe.me/2017/10/23/political-polarization-in-the-twitter-sphere-and-how-it-will-end/

Does anyone question how he even obtains the gedmatch results he posts? It's easy for anyone who can add to 100 to fabricate things and post bogus data. How would anyone trust a random stranger with their DNA test results? He either gains the trust of the dumbest morons he could find or he types it all out himself, ensuring to inflate the middle eastern components and using the same font and format as an actual result from a gedmatch calculator to make it seem authentic.

Zanatis
03-11-17, 13:17
Angela, shouldn't you ban everyone posting here along with yourself for going off topic in different directions? :P

Republicans vs Democrats

Sikeliot vs The World (I don't even know the guy but he became famous in my head)

Mid-life crisis bring it on.

davef
03-11-17, 14:15
Angela, shouldn't you ban everyone posting here along with yourself for going off topic in different directions? :P

Republicans vs Democrats

Sikeliot vs The World (I don't even know the guy but he became famous in my head)

Mid-life crisis bring it on.
By that logic, shoudnt you be banned as well? ;)

Angela
03-11-17, 16:01
Angela, shouldn't you ban everyone posting here along with yourself for going off topic in different directions? :P

Republicans vs Democrats

Sikeliot vs The World (I don't even know the guy but he became famous in my head)

Mid-life crisis bring it on.

I'm not aware of posting anything in this thread other than what is related to my original post.The "off-topic" posts were not mine. If you think "he who must not be named" doesn't speak through socks on that board then you're being naive. Heck, his socks talk to his socks. :) Nor is this an "academic" thread where standards should be higher, and where other members complain, as is often the case.

I have, for the record, never banned anyone outright,not even the unstable and/or drunk, high ones who pm me spouting curses and filth. I issue infractions. When you get too many infractions you're automatically banned. Nor have I ever even given someone an infraction for going off topic on a "serious" thread without having warned them, sometimes repeatedly. You shouldn't comment unless you have the facts straight.

As for any pejorative comments or insults about my personal life, do it again and you'll get an infraction as well.

Sile
03-11-17, 18:22
If we go down the most logical path of society in regards to racism, then since the bulk of our ancient ancestors could not read or write, the education they received in racism etc must have come from the religious educators/leaders, the studied few in all religions. I think they need to lead the way forward or be swept aside.

eventually, the mobile phone will kill off all religions and centuries later will also kill off nations .............but not in my life time.

Wanderlust
04-11-17, 18:20
Thanks for the assumption, but I have.

??? First off, I was neither talking nor referring to you, which should be fairly obvious considering who I actually quoted and addressed. Secondly, I was speaking to someone critically unread and uninformed, who's done nothing but illustrate this in loud, bright colors during each and every one of our interactions.


And when fighting intolerance, it is also important not to allow oneself to get so one-sided, that we only look at things from our own angle, overlook the flaws in our own camps and demonize based on boxes you believe people to fit into.

DUH, you really are preaching to the choir. A talent of mine is the ability to hold, understand, engage, critique and analyze an issue, problem, idea or concept from multiple perspectives and points of view, weighing each of them until I've reached a conclusion about the most logical/practical/efficient method or way to proceed in reaching a certain goal and outcome. In practically every one of my comments on this thread, I've shown the ability to see an issue from multiple perspectives. Did you not see where I've said several times that my instincts tend to veer towards the hard right and that I can understand the "logic" and underpinnings of that ideology but that I've actively and consciously adopted a more liberal (though unorthodox) worldview based on studying/examining historical patterns in attempts to predict future outcomes? Did you not see where I spoke to the various ways my behaviors when interacting with others can produce certain conflicts based on differing underlying mechanisms that shape what/how we value tolerance and decency when engaging a certain topic?

I would expect not, seeing as you're the same interlocutor who couldn't even ascertain that I wasn't talking to him to begin with. If you aren't going to do what you condescendingly suggested I do, that is, to "read" everything and place the dialogue in the proper context before making a comment or embracing a certain stance, then it's best that you not involve yourself at all. And skip over calling me rude and arrogant, I don't care; "arrogance" is what you receive when you "arrogantly" address me pointing out the alleged splinter in my eye while I'm barely dodging the rafter in yours.


In other words: Your "loser and tittyboy" post is way out of balance. And when this is one's state of mind, it might be good to first accept that everyone looks at life based on their own past experiences. Then and only then will it be possible for you to actually contribute by sharing what your views might be. Otherwise you will just come off as an extremist. And extremism is bad... from every angle.

1.) So you accuse me of lacking balance without providing any counterbalancing view points...typical. In other words, your involvement in the conversation is pointless and you're just speaking for the sake of speaking and deflecting.

2.) Much to my chagrin, I already fully accept and acknowledge that many people only look at life based on their own myopic, jaundiced, subjective and limited life experiences; utterly tragic.

3.) Honestly, I don't expect certain lesser thinkers to be able to look past my delivery and "how I come off" in ascertaining the logic and rational behind my viewpoints, you know, the stuff that really matters.

Angela
04-11-17, 20:35
Enough. I started the thread and I'm closing it.