PDA

View Full Version : J2b1-M205 introduced to Eupedia



Pages : 1 [2]

Mich Glitch
10-04-19, 19:16
Yes. Dante is better than old Big Y.
0.11% non-read (Dante Labs) VS 2.4% (Big Y-500).

Bachus
10-04-19, 19:20
@ Dema

Are coward to answer me why Dalmatian Serbs have 63% I and 77% northern y dna (I2a, I1, R1a and N), and only 6% J2b if they are Vlachs?

Are you coward to answer me why Banija Serb up ploting close to Austruans and Dalmatian Serb got Austrians on the second places if they are Vlachs?

Dema
10-04-19, 19:29
Kriči tribe are tiny minority among Serbs from Bosnia and Croatia. They joined to I2a and R1a Serbian Slavic majority, like you ancestors joined to Albanians.

You cheep propaganda is debunked!

J2-M205 is micro haplogroup and is minority and low percentage everywhere in the world.

That is even better for tracking it down.

I never said that J2-M205 is majority in Krajina but rather i said something else, 8 don't want to repeat. Is there anything that you don't agree with me?

I said that they are not Vlachs, read again.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Dema
10-04-19, 19:39
Here is my neighborhood by 111 Y-STR markers (my sample in red):

https://i6.imageban.ru/out/2019/04/03/0865b388915164b0400e5782475d065c.jpgThese all seem to be distant matches 6000 years away, do you see any match on 37 or 67 markers on FTDNA?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Bachus
10-04-19, 19:42
J2-M205 is micro haplogroup and is minority and low percentage everywhere in the world.

That is even better for tracking it down.

I never said that J2-M205 is majority in Krajina but rather i said something else, 8 don't want to repeat. Is there anything that you don't agree with me?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Dalmatian Serbs are 6% J2b, Lika Serbs are around 15% J2b, Kordun Serbs are 2% J2b, Banija Serbs are 7-8% J2b, Slavonian Serbs are 2% J2b.

Lika is not whole Krajina.
In Lika before 1991 lived about 55 000 Serbs, in Dalmatia lived around 130 000 Serbs, in Banija over 80 000... Lika was region in Krajina with lowest number of Serbs.
Lika Serbs have higher J2b than other Krajina Serbs due to genetic drift. Lika Serbs also have higher R1a and lower I2a than other Krajina Serbs.

Dema
10-04-19, 19:58
Dalmatian Serbs are 6% J2b, Lika Serbs are around 15% J2b, Kordun Serbs are 2% J2b, Banija Serbs are 7-8% J2b, Slavonian Serbs are 2% J2b.

Lika is not whole Krajina.
In Lika before 1991 lived about 55 000 Serbs, in Dalmatia lived around 130 000 Serbs, in Banija over 80 000... Lika was region in Krajina with lowest number of Serbs.
Lika Serbs have higher J2b than other Krajina Serbs due to genetic drift. Lika Serbs also have higher R1a and lower I2a than other Krajina Serbs.I dont understand your point, God why i have to type it again. I said that Croatian and Bosnian so called Vlachs, or rather today Serbs are mostly notable by their higher E-v13 and J2-M205 haplogroups in compare to their South Slavic neighbours. Furthermore i said that J2-M205 is none existent among Vlachs also that they are rather slavicized natives rather then Vlachs.


Also i said about Vlachs that they are just latinized Balkan natives with later Slavic influence rather then being related to Middle Easterners or Italians.


Pls dont post rows of autosomal results as that is not important here and i dont see why are you posting autosomal stuff now.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Dema
10-04-19, 20:05
They joined to I2a and R1a Serbian Slavic majority, like you ancestors joined to Albanians.



We dont know what language Kriçi spoken. They were recorded as none Slavic Montenegrin tribe, its very possible they spoken Albanian language.

So there is no proof that my ancestors joined Albanians. We could have been here since Phoenician time and joined Illyrian ethnos. Its possible when looking at genetics. Only Serbs know 100 % they joined recently but not me since language Kriçi spoken was 100 % not Serbian. Being Montenegrin native tribe, it does not need rocket scientist to conclude they were close to Albanians or even Albanians themselves.



Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Bachus
10-04-19, 20:21
@ Dema

They don't have higher E-V13.
Krajina Serbs have lower E-V13 than Serbian average, Serbs from Serbia and Montenegrins. Regions where Serbs have higher E-V13 than Serbian average are Montenegro, Shopluk (southeastern Serbia), Kosovo and Banat.
Dalmatian Serbs have 13% E-V13, Kordun Serbs have 9% E-V13, Lika Serbs have 11-12% E-V13. On the other hand Croatians on average have about 10% E-V13, and Bosniaks from Bosnia have 11.2% E-V13 on average
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?253441-Bosnian-Muslim-Y-DNA-results-(273-sample)
Sandžakian Bosniaks have over 35% E-V13.

Krajina Serbs are pred. Slavic genetically.

K15 Mixed Mode of Dalmatian Serb whose results I posted up:
1 58.7% Polish + 41.3% Italian_Abruzzo @ 1.86
2 50.9% Belarrusian + 49.1% Tuscan @ 2.01
3 54.3% Russian_Smolensk + 45.7% Tuscan 2.11

K13 Mixed Mode of Serb from Lika:
1 93.4% Moldavian + 6.6% Sardinian @ 3.52
2 60.5% Ukrainian + 39.5% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.89
3 67.8% Ukrainian + 32.2% Central_Greek @ 4.09

Mich Glitch
10-04-19, 20:46
I am not so sure. I think TMRCA is about 2500-3000 ybp.

I have just one 12 marker match. That's all.

hrvat22
10-04-19, 20:57
@ Dema

Are coward to answer me why Dalmatian Serbs have 63% I and 77% northern y dna (I2a, I1, R1a and N), and only 6% J2b if they are Vlachs?

Are you coward to answer me why Banija Serb up ploting close to Austruans and Dalmatian Serb got Austrians on the second places if they are Vlachs?

There is no scientific paper that says which genetics Croatian Serbians have and in which percentage so your data is not relevant.

We do not know whose genetics you're exposing, as well you do not know history of Serbians in Croatia and Bosnia and for that reason your claims are incorrect.

In Croatia part of population also crossing to Orthodoxy, in writing Vlachs are mentioned which have nothing to do with Serbians so this must be a fundamental fact in your presentation.

We are talking about original genetics and we can not use recent history because Orthodox(Vlachs, Croatians etc) have become Serbs and Catholics(Vlachs) become Croats. We must use original historical data which speaks about origin of that population as well respecting some facts from the past ( transition to Orthodoxy in the Turkish period).

hrvat22
10-04-19, 21:08
Dalmatian Serbs are 6% J2b, Lika Serbs are around 15% J2b, Kordun Serbs are 2% J2b, Banija Serbs are 7-8% J2b, Slavonian Serbs are 2% J2b.

Lika is not whole Krajina.
In Lika before 1991 lived about 55 000 Serbs, in Dalmatia lived around 130 000 Serbs, in Banija over 80 000... Lika was region in Krajina with lowest number of Serbs.
Lika Serbs have higher J2b than other Krajina Serbs due to genetic drift. Lika Serbs also have higher R1a and lower I2a than other Krajina Serbs.

Originally in Lika(possible one or two records) etc Serbs are not mentioned in historical records, do you understand now?

Therefore we do not know whose origin is genetics of today's Serbians from Lika and Croatia.

For Slavonia there is a little more data that mentione Serbians but for Lika, Kordun, Dalmatia, Banija there are no data or a few records for smaller areas. It is interesting that even in these records are mentioned along Vlachs, where Vlachs disappeared?

hrvat22
10-04-19, 21:17
@ Dema

They don't have higher E-V13.
Krajina Serbs have lower E-V13 than Serbian average, Serbs from Serbia and Montenegrins. Regions where Serbs have higher E-V13 than Serbian average are Montenegro, Shopluk (southeastern Serbia), Kosovo and Banat.
Dalmatian Serbs have 13% E-V13, Kordun Serbs have 9% E-V13, Lika Serbs have 11-12% E-V13. On the other hand Croatians on average have about 10% E-V13, and Bosniaks from Bosnia have 11.2% E-V13 on average
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?253441-Bosnian-Muslim-Y-DNA-results-(273-sample)
Sandžakian Bosniaks have over 35% E-V13.

Krajina Serbs are pred. Slavic genetically.

K15 Mixed Mode of Dalmatian Serb whose results I posted up:
1 58.7% Polish + 41.3% Italian_Abruzzo @ 1.86
2 50.9% Belarrusian + 49.1% Tuscan @ 2.01
3 54.3% Russian_Smolensk + 45.7% Tuscan 2.11

K13 Mixed Mode of Serb from Lika:
1 93.4% Moldavian + 6.6% Sardinian @ 3.52
2 60.5% Ukrainian + 39.5% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.89
3 67.8% Ukrainian + 32.2% Central_Greek @ 4.09

You have to use data that is relevant for now, and that is scientific work for Bosnian Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks.

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/22Kangars/BesenyoGeneticsEn.htm

Bosnian Serbs according to scientific work have second haplotype in the population E1b 20%, which is logical because this population comes with Vlachs to Bosnia, J2 is 8%.

Bachus
10-04-19, 21:24
You have to use data that is relevant for now, and that is scientific work for Bosnian Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks.

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/22Kangars/BesenyoGeneticsEn.htm

Bosnian Serbs according to scientific work have second haplotype in the population E1b 20%, which is logical because this population comes with Vlachs to Bosnia, J2 is 8%.

Kme, kme, kme... That is 10 years old = outdated.

What's up in Kakanj? What raja in Kakanj doing?

hrvat22
10-04-19, 21:32
Kme, kme, kme... That is 10 years old = outdated.

What's up in Kakanj? What raja in Kakanj doing?

If you do not have relevant evidence to refute my claims you do not need to insult me instantly, this is not Serbian forum and please understand that.

Bachus
10-04-19, 21:34
If you do not have relevant evidence to refute my claims you do not need to insult me instantly, this is not Serbian forum and please understand that.

Serbian dna project is the best in region. There is few thousands tested and every day there is few new results.

hrvat22
10-04-19, 21:46
Serbian dna project is the best in region. There is few thousands tested and every day there is few new results.

Unfortunately data from a private portal are not relevant evidence, we do not know how much is close relatives, cousins , people from the same villages and areas etc. in that data. We have respect some order, otherwise we enter into anarchy.

But you still do not hear what I'm saying, originally most of Serbs are not mention in Croatia or most of Croatia.

Bachus
11-04-19, 00:32
Unfortunately data from a private portal are not relevant evidence, we do not know how much is close relatives, cousins , people from the same villages and areas etc. in that data. We have respect some order, otherwise we enter into anarchy.

But you still do not hear what I'm saying, originally most of Serbs are not mention in Croatia or most of Croatia.

Stop using results of tested people on SDP if they are fake!

Dema
11-04-19, 07:37
@ Dema

They don't have higher E-V13.
Krajina Serbs have lower E-V13 than Serbian average, Serbs from Serbia and Montenegrins. Regions where Serbs have higher E-V13 than Serbian average are Montenegro, Shopluk (southeastern Serbia), K



Look this is maps made out of Poreklo samples. You can see here E-v13 and J2b1. Its clear that its connected with South - Southeast Serbia (from Sopluk to Montenegro and Kosovo) and Montenegro while Both Ev13 and J2b1 are lacking in North Serbia. You have them only in these areas that are known for Vlach population, which are actually mostly slavicised Albanians from Montenegro and South Serbia region regarding these specific haplogroups.

There is no J2b1 and E-v13 in North Serbia because its not real Slavo-Serbs but rather serbicized Vlacho Albanians, remains of Roman Empire or more recently Albanians/Vlachs..

Bosnian and Croatian Serbs have obviously higher Ev13 and J2b1 in compare to Bosnjaks, Croats or Slovens, Ev13 up to 10x higher and J2-M205 up to 100x higher. Actually J2-M205 is probably 1000x higher then in Slovens. And stop posting rows of autosomal results since its not important in this discussion.
This is result mostly of assimilating Montenegrin and South - Southeast none Slavic population.

J2-M205 Serbs from Serbian project:

https://i.imgur.com/dNyCvbO.png


J2b2, Ev13 and R1b-BY611 from Serbian project:



https://i.imgur.com/aS73L0m.jpg

Bachus
11-04-19, 13:06
Look this is maps made out of Poreklo samples. You can see here E-v13 and J2b1. Its clear that its connected with South - Southeast Serbia (from Sopluk to Montenegro and Kosovo) and Montenegro while Both Ev13 and J2b1 are lacking in North Serbia. You have them only in these areas that are known for Vlach population, which are actually mostly slavicised Albanians from Montenegro and South Serbia region regarding these specific haplogroups.

There is no J2b1 and E-v13 in North Serbia because its not real Slavo-Serbs but rather serbicized Vlacho Albanians, remains of Roman Empire or more recently Albanians/Vlachs..

Bosnian and Croatian Serbs have obviously higher Ev13 and J2b1 in compare to Bosnjaks, Croats or Slovens, Ev13 up to 10x higher and J2-M205 up to 100x higher. Actually J2-M205 is probably 1000x higher then in Slovens. And stop posting rows of autosomal results since its not important in this discussion.
This is result mostly of assimilating Montenegrin and South - Southeast none Slavic population.

J2-M205 Serbs from Serbian project:

https://i.imgur.com/dNyCvbO.png


J2b2, Ev13 and R1b-BY611 from Serbian project:



https://i.imgur.com/aS73L0m.jpg

High E-V13 in Zagreb area?

That maps are bullshit. The highest E-V13 hava Montenegrins, Shops and Kosovo Serbs.

E-V13 is 20% among Kosovo Serbs.
This is y dna of Kosovo Serbs.
https://i.imgur.com/oJVk4AN.png

E-V13 in Montenegro is 27%.

E-V13 among Krajina is 12-13% according to statistics from what I have seen-

I posted y dna of Dalmatian Serbs.

Again:

I2a-Din - 39%
I1 - 24%
E-V13 - 13%
R1a - 8%
J2b - 6%
N - 4%
J1 - 4%
R1b - 3%

Paternal lines of Dalmatian Serbs are:
- 47% Slavic (I2a-Din, R1a)
- 24% Germanic (I1)
- 22% "Vlach" (E-V13, J2b, R1b)
- 7% Unknown origin (J1, N)

Why you ignore autosomal results of Banija Serbs and Dalmatian Serb which I posted? Because they are too northern for to be Vlachs, is not it?

Bachus
11-04-19, 13:32
Y dna of Serbs from Kordun (publicly available results)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kordun

I2a-Din (16)
Bajić (Katinovac/Topusko)
Bekić (Čremušnica/Vrgin Most)
Bižić (Dugi Dol/Krnjak)
Brujić (Baović/Vrginmost)
Brujić (Golinja/Vrginmost)
Đurić (Maljevac/Cetingrad)
Eror (Klokoč/Vojnić)
Zobenica (Sadilovac/Rakovica)
Ivančević (Nova Kršlja/Rakovica)
Mamula (Slavsko Polje/Vrginmost)
Macut (Cerovac Vukmanićki/Karlovac)
Paravina (Sadilovac)
Pekeč (Cetingrad)
Pjevac(Jagrovac/Vojnić)
Radović (Gojkovac/Cetingrad)
Tesla (Ivanković Selo/Karlovac)

R1a (6)
Vučković (Cvijanović Brdo/Slunj)
Janjanin (Ostrožin/Vrginmost)
Marinković (Kozarac/Vrginmost)
Mrđenović (Živkovića Kosa/Vojnić)
Pajić (Široka Rijeka/Vojnić)
Radaković (Popović Brdo/Karlovac)

N (3)
Kličković (Trepča/Vrginmost)
Krivokuća (Gornja Trebinja)
Kukulj (Blatuša/Vrginmost)

G2a (3)
Vidović (Novo Selo/Perjasica)
Kozlica (Gdjkovac/Vojnić)
Maćešić (Budačka Rijeka/Vojnić)

E-V13 (2)
Vukobratović (Vrginmost)
Peurača (Gornji Budački/Krnjak)

I1 (2)
Višnjić (Maljevac/Cetingad)
Mazalica (Vojišnica/Vojnić)

R1b (2)
Bulat (Kirin/Vrginmost)
Vranješ (Katlovac)

J2b (1)
Novaković (Vojišnica/Vojnić)

Only 2 E-V13 and 1 J2b!

Dema
11-04-19, 14:23
High E-V13 in Zagreb area?

That maps are bullshit. The highest E-V13 hava Montenegrins, Shops and Kosovo Serbs it?

Why are you posting Kosovo Serb results now, who even mentioned them? Do you have hallucinations or issues?

Stop spamming with meaningless rows of copy pasted statistics from some random pages.
Where i said there is high ev13 in zagreb? Why are you spamming this thread with none relevant things that i didn't even say?

There is no Ev13 in Zagreb and not high ev13 as you say. Do you have eyes? Do you need doctor?

These are samples from Serbian forum poreklo, why dont you map all Serbian ev13 and j2b1 from poreklo so we see what results you get.

J2b1 map was made by Petar Demic, i took it from Poreklo. If you dont agree with something you can write them complains.


Now ffs stop spam

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Dema
11-04-19, 14:40
Please, is there moderators, why is this guy spamming with none relevant copy pasted rows of statistics and none relevant rows of gedmatch calculator results, please wtf???

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Bachus
11-04-19, 14:52
Stop spamming with meaningless rows of copy pasted statistics from some random pages.
Where i said there is high ev13 in zagreb? Why are you spamming this thread with none relevant things that i didn't even say?

There is no Ev13 in Zagreb and not high ev13 as you say. Do you have eyes?

These are samples from Serbian forum poreklo, why dont you map all Serbian ev13 and j2b1 from poreklo so we see what results you get.

J2b1 map was made by Petar Demic, i took it from Poreklo. If you dont agree with something you can write them complains.


Now ffs stop spam

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Petar Demić! Is this a joke?
Petar Demić is J2b1 and he put non-real % of his haplogroup, because he has problem to belong to weird haplogroup. Tested J2b1 from same villages who have surnames and who are cousins...

I also know Serbs who are N-P189.2 supremists they carry this haplogroup, and I1 supremists who carry I1 and think they are Vikings.

Among results from 23andMe always is domination of I2a and R1a among Serbs from most regions including Krajina. Because there is no manipulations and planing tested people on 23andMe.

Dema
11-04-19, 17:48
I am not so sure. I think TMRCA is about 2500-3000 ybp.

I have just one 12 marker match. That's all.


12 markers cant be classified as match, i thought that you have at least some 37 or 67 marker Ukraine or Poland matches on FTDNA, then we would know they fall in your branch. I will look for Ukraine M205 samples to see if they have enough markers revealed and maybe they share your unique markers.

According to Yfull matches, seems like all are 5600 years far away from you. You are like small brother clade to CTS1969 and Y45447, formed 5600 years ago and they dont share any SNP with you below PF7321.

There has been some changes on Yfull, we got some new samples and our TMRCA fall down from 6000 to 5600 years.

Mich Glitch
11-04-19, 18:32
- According to Yfull matches, seems like all are 5600 years far away from you.

- Unfortunately my closest matches from this tree don't have Big Y (and YFull, of course).

https://i6.imageban.ru/out/2019/04/03/0865b388915164b0400e5782475d065c.jpg

Nik
16-04-19, 20:21
Petar Demić! Is this a joke?
Petar Demić is J2b1 and he put non-real % of his haplogroup, because he has problem to belong to weird haplogroup. Tested J2b1 from same villages who have surnames and who are cousins...

I also know Serbs who are N-P189.2 supremists they carry this haplogroup, and I1 supremists who carry I1 and think they are Vikings.

Among results from 23andMe always is domination of I2a and R1a among Serbs from most regions including Krajina. Because there is no manipulations and planing tested people on 23andMe.
Petar Demic is Dema himself or one of his cousins. Demic is the Slavic version of Dema lastname, and Dema apparently lives in Croatia and was born in Slovenia, so there you go.

Mich Glitch
16-04-19, 21:47
12 markers cant be classified as match, i thought that you have at least some 37 or 67 marker Ukraine or Poland matches on FTDNA, then we would know they fall in your branch. I will look for Ukraine M205 samples to see if they have enough markers revealed and maybe they share your unique markers.

According to Yfull matches, seems like all are 5600 years far away from you. You are like small brother clade to CTS1969 and Y45447, formed 5600 years ago and they dont share any SNP with you below PF7321.

There has been some changes on Yfull, we got some new samples and our TMRCA fall down from 6000 to 5600 years.

Sure. I have 111 STR markers + Big Y-500 + YFull results for my account. And I'm waiting for:
1. Dante Labs interpretation by YFull.
2. Big Y-700 results.
3. Dante Labs LongRead.

But in the same time, I have only one 12 STR marker match. Easy.

Hope, now it's clear.

*** BTW. My sample is the nearest for London gladiator dDNA among modern samples.

And I am interesting for the family line. I.e. for genealogy. Haplogroup distributions don't interest me.

Dema
17-04-19, 02:42
- According to Yfull matches, seems like all are 5600 years far away from you.

- Unfortunately my closest matches from this tree don't have Big Y (and YFull, of course).

https://i6.imageban.ru/out/2019/04/03/0865b388915164b0400e5782475d065c.jpg



Sure. I have 111 STR markers + Big Y-500 + YFull results for my account. And I'm waiting for:
1. Dante Labs interpretation by YFull.
2. Big Y-700 results.
3. Dante Labs LongRead.

But in the same time, I have only one 12 STR marker match. Easy.

Hope, now it's clear.

*** BTW. My sample is the nearest for London gladiator dDNA among modern samples.

And I am interesting for the family line. I.e. for genealogy. Haplogroup distributions don't interest me.




Yes i understood you perfectly! Looks like you have no close relatives. I have looked at situation few days ago but your case is familiar to me long ago.
I can guarantee you with over 99 % certainty that none of these people you match closer then M205 or PF7321 SNP (TMRCA and distance 5600 years according to Yfull at the moment)

These 12 marker matches you are getting are just random coincidence (convergence).

You have some very untypical STRs mutations for entire M205, your DYS388 value 13 is very unique for most of M205 samples where modal is 15. Some samples even have 16. But your value 13 there for sure signals distant separation. I think DYS388 13 is good start to look for haplotypes similar to yours and that could fall more closely into your branch.

N50045 from Sicily has Modal value 15 on DYS388. It is unlikely and also by other significant differences that you and him fall into a same subclade.
248827 American, same story like with Sicilian he has modal value DYS388 15 and also by other significant differences it is unlikely you two share any SNP under PF7321.
E9599 Milutin, he 100 % falls into my cluster J2-M205>CTS1969>Y22059*
167100 Sicilian, he has close Greek match with bigY and is for sure not falling into your cluster.
M6803 , Oman sample, he did bigY and is not falling into your clade.
274325 , Thomas Pople, England, he is CTS1969>YP13, he did bigY
207673, Jacques Blais, France, i remember when he did bigY, he is 100 % CTS1969>PH4306* It would be very good if he uploads to Yfull


Anyways as i stated i will look into public researches to see and try to find Ukraine M205 samples and perhaps they share your unique markers where DYS388 13 is very important. But also few other mutations.

I am aware you share SNP with gladiator ancient sample, you can read more about it here, your sample is mentioned here:
https://j2-m172.info/2016/01/exogenous-roman-era-york-3drif-26-is-j2b1-m205-and-likely-middle-eastener/

Chris Rоttensteiner who written this article is main J2 administrator and probably most knowledgeable person about J2-M205. His work and research is very appreciated!

Mich Glitch
17-04-19, 03:08
My most distant ancestor for this line was born in Kingdom of Poland about 1700.
In 1792 it's became a part of Russian Empire (USSR from 1917-1922).
From 1991 it's Ukraine.

My only match is from modern day Poland. He has 37 markers.
So, I don't think that it is just gomoplasy.
I am sure this is my really closest match.

Dema
17-04-19, 03:18
My most distant ancestor for this line was born in Kingdom of Poland about 1700.
In 1792 it's became a part of Russian Empire (USSR from 1917-1922).
From 1991 it's Ukraine.

My only match is from modern day Poland. He has 37 markers.
So, I don't think that it is just gomoplasy.
I am sure this is my really closest match.


Where you found him, i dont see him. What is difference on 37 markers, what is his DYS388

Mich Glitch
17-04-19, 03:26
This is FTDNA match.
The problem is, this guy is not a member of any project.
So, I have TiP only.

Dema
17-04-19, 03:40
This is FTDNA match.
The problem is, this guy is not a member of any project.
So, I have TiP only.


What it says on the left at genetic distance ?

And what result you get after TiP calculation on 37 markers?


Yes, very interesting indeed, did you do family finder test? I dont see your autosomal data, it would be interesting to see that also.

Mich Glitch
17-04-19, 04:16
In comparing Y-DNA 37 marker results, the probability that Adam ****ewicz and Michael Temosh shared a common ancestor within the last...

COMPARISON CHART
Generations Percentage
1 0.03%
2 0.37%
3 1.5%
4 3.87%
5 7.71%
6 13%
7 19.51%
8 26.88%
9 34.73%
10 42.68%
11 50.42%
12 57.7%
13 64.37%
14 70.34%
15 75.57%
16 80.07%
17 83.89%
18 87.09%
19 89.73%
20 91.88%
21 93.63%
22 95.03%
23 96.14%
24 97.02%

Mich Glitch
17-04-19, 04:20
So, me and Adam (I hide the part of his last name) by FTDNA 37 marker estimation have MRCA within 25 generations. I.e. 700-800 y.b.p. (1200-1300 A.D.).

Dema
17-04-19, 04:21
What is genetic distance on the left before you click on TiP calculator? What number?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Mich Glitch
17-04-19, 04:22
And yes, I have FF and 23andMe test.

Mich Glitch
17-04-19, 04:24
What is genetic distance on the left before you click on TiP calculator? What number?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

I told you, zero for 12 markers.
And he isn't shown in my matches for 25 and 37 markers.

Mich Glitch
17-04-19, 04:26
Here is my K36 interactive map:

https://fusiontables.googleusercontent.com/embedviz?q=select+col39>>1+from+1cwVVtzHmrm9ygSqz9SS3o0YEdV2-3GT4Ogd15yl6&viz=MAP&h=false&lat=52.63642340988341&lng=30.948116300000038&t=1&z=4&l=col39>>1&y=2&tmplt=2&hml=KML

Dema
17-04-19, 13:34
I told you, zero for 12 markers.
And he isn't shown in my matches for 25 and 37 markers.


Very good, looks like he has first 12 markers identical with you, which is very important because of your unique DYS388 13.
Also you dont see him on 25 or 37 markers because there is some still unknown distance after all.
Based on these TiP results i will say speculatively 1000 - 1500 years. It can be higher or lower tho.

Try to send him email, ask him to join J2-M172 project, it would be good if he would do bigY and upload to Yfull.
He most likely falls into your branch.

What are your FTDNA MyOrigin results? im just curious

Mich Glitch
17-04-19, 17:46
It's so funny when people compare autosomal results (TMRCA not longer than 5-6 generations) and Y SNPs and STRs (thousands yrs).

But here I am:

https://i1.imageban.ru/out/2019/04/17/e0cc7acea27a17dfba3dbbc632614a17.jpg

Mich Glitch
17-04-19, 17:51
And to continue with fun, my partial pedigree (link (https://mypedigree.000webhostapp.com/50%20generations.html)).

Dema
17-04-19, 21:47
It's so funny when people compare autosomal results (TMRCA not longer than 5-6 generations) and Y SNPs and STRs (thousands yrs).

But here I am:

https://i1.imageban.ru/out/2019/04/17/e0cc7acea27a17dfba3dbbc632614a17.jpgDont worry your autosomal can give us also valuable informations. Dont forget it goes up to 2000 years back. I never doubted you. Your line is long time Polish/Ukrainian/East European.

You have very high East Europe, South Slavs rarely, almost never can score as high.

I also focus on trace elements.

You are original, real deal Polish/Ukraine.

Very interesting J2-M205 migration. It is very rare almost none existent in North and East Slavs and that part of Europe.



Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Mich Glitch
17-04-19, 22:06
I absolutely don't worry.
I've heard more stupid things.
Don't tell me stories about so called relict haploblocs. I know the subject much better.
The truth is we geneticly heredite from about 120 ancestors only. Final point.

Mich Glitch
17-04-19, 22:10
People don't understand the difference between similarity and ancestry.

Dema
17-04-19, 22:26
I said right away that i am just curious, i dont understand why all the hard feelings?

I was not even speaking about relict haploblocs but i was interested in something else.

Your autosomal gave a lot of answers.

There was even possibility that you are assimilated Ashkenazi, but its clear that you are not. You are distant long time ago J2-M205 migration. Probably before Common Era.


Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Mich Glitch
17-04-19, 22:36
I prefer discuss the facts and don't waste the time for nothing.
So it's better for me to speak about Y chromosome only.
Sorry for my intonations.

:)

Mich Glitch
17-04-19, 22:43
About Ashkenazi it's another idiotic statement.
OK.
Let me tell you something. I start the tests from 2003 and I've tested mire than 50 persons. Genetic genealogy and genealogy are my only hobbies and obcession.
Don't insult my knowlege with your novice naivettes please.

Dema
18-04-19, 10:53
About Ashkenazi it's another idiotic statement.
OK.
Let me tell you something. I start the tests from 2003 and I've tested mire than 50 persons. Genetic genealogy and genealogy are my only hobbies and obcession.
Don't insult my knowlege with your novice naivettes please.

My Idiotic statment??? You have ego problems, and obviously you are jealous because more novice user explained you results.

You posted list of 10 people that you said they are not deeper tested and that they are your relatives. I analysed every single one of them and proved you that you dont share single SNPs below M205 and PF7231 with them. And that difference is 5600 years.
Most of these samples were familiar to me and i know even them fall in different branches therefore they dont match one another in same time frame also.

I analysed your STRs long ago and identified your DYS388 as a probably most important one for your cluster among few others that i didnt yet mention.

I even made you realise that your closest match from Poland has same DYS388 value 13 even tho you didnt know that and you thought its a problem because he is not in any project.

I then analysed your autosomal which virtually proved what you were also claiming before that you are not connected to Jews, which also your Ydna confirms.

Also i specifically told you your position on Yfull tree that you are brother clade to CTS1969 and Y45447 and you and your closest polish match will probably form a brother clade to CTS1969 and Y45447 with formed date 5600 years and speculative TMRCA 1000 - 1500 years.


You posted stupidity and names of people that you dont match 100 % while i helped you find, confirm and identify your branch with that Polish guy and his DYS388 13 and istead of saying thanks you give me all this crap.


I dont care have you tested 5 10 or 50 people. I tested 5 - 10 people myself. People i learned from tested 1000 people.

I am still learning, its you who said stupidity and i corrected you and now you are acting like some jealous jerk instead of saying thanks or something.

Mich Glitch
18-04-19, 17:09
OK.
Why Jewish? Because started from J, like J2b1? Why not Japanese?
I call this idiotic statement. Like many others.

Mich Glitch
18-04-19, 17:20
About your "autosomal analysis" - this is another idiotic statement.
Look this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g-VwtRd8ks) FOR BEGINNING to clear your mind.
In this thread we speak about Y-chromosome. Forget your childish conclusions by autosomal SNP. It actually doesn't work. And doesn't work deeper than 7-10 generations.
Easy.

Bachus
18-04-19, 19:46
Petar Demic is Dema himself or one of his cousins. Demic is the Slavic version of Dema lastname, and Dema apparently lives in Croatia and was born in Slovenia, so there you go.

Could be.

Dema was not took his nick by accident. Dema came from Demić.

Mich Glitch
18-04-19, 19:48
One more time:

https://i2.imageban.ru/out/2019/04/18/b0bc82a6369d8ef763aa0f0476f4446b.jpg
https://i2.imageban.ru/out/2019/04/18/7962ccc053724c00043582fb2bc2ed54.jpg
https://i6.imageban.ru/out/2019/04/18/6d8f0af655871b83903336d55c0fdb38.jpg

Mich Glitch
18-04-19, 19:52
If we take average 100 yrs/SNP, for 42 private SNPs we have TMRCA about 4000-5000 ybp.

Mich Glitch
18-04-19, 19:56
The same story by YFull:

https://i5.imageban.ru/out/2019/04/18/58fd73a8fb915b3f80a0d70ba74b5ffb.jpg

Mich Glitch
18-04-19, 19:58
Some people (most of them) have STR only. It's cheaper.
So, for them TMRCA is even less.
Simple logic.

Mich Glitch
18-04-19, 20:03
My Polish match is the closest. It's evident too.

The question is how this Polish guy's and my common ancestor arrived to modern day Poland? From the South? Maybe from the North? And when?

Sure, it's interesting for me only but I am looking for researchers with common interests.

Excuse me again to teach you. Nothing personal.

Dema
20-04-19, 12:18
One more time:

https://i2.imageban.ru/out/2019/04/18/b0bc82a6369d8ef763aa0f0476f4446b.jpg
https://i2.imageban.ru/out/2019/04/18/7962ccc053724c00043582fb2bc2ed54.jpg
https://i6.imageban.ru/out/2019/04/18/6d8f0af655871b83903336d55c0fdb38.jpg


As i understood this German, Yemen and Lebanon persons are not your branch/cluster matches, you match them same way you match everyone else under M205 and PF7321 SNPs. More then 95 % of M205 are also positive to PF7321 SNP, me included.
It looks like you are in group with them here in Big Y Block Tree because none of you is further classified then PH7321*.
You need second sample to confirm your private branch and SNPs. If your Polish match would upload to Yfull or do bigY, you and him would be separated into your own branch.










If we take average 100 yrs/SNP, for 42 private SNPs we have TMRCA about 4000-5000 ybp.


Yes this is correct, but you and me have TMRCA 5600 years, so difference with them might be very similar like difference with you and me for example.





Some people (most of them) have STR only. It's cheaper.
So, for them TMRCA is even less.
Simple logic.

Yes many of M205 have STRs only, but based on STRs we can know branches of many of them since they are close matches to guys who did bigY.
For example one of guys you posted does not have bigY, but i know he 100 % falls into my branch M205>CTS1969>Y22059.
Only first Sicilian and American did not have bigY, all others had. But based on STRs, American and Sicilian are different branches.

You should focus on DYS388 values 13/14 since 15 is modal and most of M205 have 15.



The same story by YFull:

https://i5.imageban.ru/out/2019/04/18/58fd73a8fb915b3f80a0d70ba74b5ffb.jpg


Some samples like your new sample are still under processing and results will soon change. We should still wait for final analysis.

So as i said, if your Polish match would do bigY he would most likely share some of your private SNPs and form separate branch together with you.

Your branch would be something like J2-M205>PF7321>Ukraine/Poland Formed 5600 ybp, TMRCA 1000 - 2000 ybp.
Your Polish/Ukraine branch is like smaller brother clade to Y45447 and CTS1969.

Also this German sample is small brother clade to CTS1969 and Y45447 and your branch, probably formed 5600 years ago with still unknown TMRCA.

Ask your Polish match to do bigY and all this things will be much clearer.



My best regards !

Dema
20-04-19, 12:20
My Polish match is the closest. It's evident too.

The question is how this Polish guy's and my common ancestor arrived to modern day Poland? From the South? Maybe from the North? And when?

Sure, it's interesting for me only but I am looking for researchers with common interests.

Excuse me again to teach you. Nothing personal.



I dont dare yet to give prognosis, but we have our oldest ancient DNA in Ain Ghazal 2500 BCE.
Also Sidon 1700 BCE.

Our TMRCA is 5600 - 6000 ybp.

Things are pretty clear....



Regarding your personal branch, i don't know when it migrated, it could be anywhere from 5000 years ago to 2000 years ago....

Mich Glitch
23-04-19, 16:11
New sample from Italia near my Dante version sample (already paid and permanently posted to the Y-tree).

https://i6.imageban.ru/out/2019/04/23/a909b4eacd04ce45b02db05817444a4e.jpg

Dema
21-05-19, 19:09
New sample from Italia near my Dante version sample (already paid and permanently posted to the Y-tree).

https://i6.imageban.ru/out/2019/04/23/a909b4eacd04ce45b02db05817444a4e.jpg




Interestingly our Trapani Italian shared plenty of SNPs with one of our Jemen Hadhramaut samples and formed private branch.
TMRCA respectively 2400 years, which goes right into Phoenician period and Roman - Punic wars.

This news goes good with my new avatar. ;)


I tried to find his STRs but i didnt see him in any project, i think there is at least couple of branches in Italy, i know for at least 3 or 4 so far...

Dema
13-06-19, 07:01
Interestingly our Trapani Italian shared plenty of SNPs with one of our Jemen Hadhramaut samples and formed private branch.
TMRCA respectively 2400 years, which goes right into Phoenician period and Roman - Punic wars.

This news goes good with my new avatar. ;)


I tried to find his STRs but i didnt see him in any project, i think there is at least couple of branches in Italy, i know for at least 3 or 4 so far...


After analysis complete their TMRCA fallen down to 2000 years before present, so it is possible its some Roman time migration, or later 9th century Muslim conquest of Sicily.



1. Roman time scenario : https://j2-m172.info/2016/01/exogenous-roman-era-york-3drif-26-is-j2b1-m205-and-likely-middle-eastener/

2. Muslim conquest scenario: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_Sicily



Also i would like to add that i have been able to find a match to our Yfull Lebanon sample, i found him another match in Lebanon from public study, GD 2/23, which is fairly close. It is one of couple of branches i found in Lebanon.

Dema
21-06-19, 16:07
New sample from Italia near my Dante version sample (already paid and permanently posted to the Y-tree).

https://i6.imageban.ru/out/2019/04/23/a909b4eacd04ce45b02db05817444a4e.jpg



New Ukraine sample processing ?? id:YF63849 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

Mich Glitch
21-06-19, 17:08
It's me again.
Big Y 700.

Dema
21-06-19, 18:21
It's me again.
Big Y 700.


It would be better if you tested some relative then actually same person again?


Or its just upgrade from 500 to 700 ? Now there is 3 of your results :)

Mich Glitch
21-06-19, 18:31
Oh, yeah?
I've tested more than 50 persons young boy.
What about you my Albanian friend?

*** BTW I'm waiting for LongRead from Dante Labs. So, for the result #4.

Dema
21-06-19, 18:54
Oh, yeah?
I've tested more than 50 persons young boy.
What about you my Albanian friend?

*** BTW I'm waiting for LongRead from Dante Labs. So, for the result #4.



I manage about 10 accounts, plus now my entire village where im from in Kosovo started to test lol.
Hopefully ill get them in Albanian project.

Its ok, just i hoped that maybe you got your STR relative to do WGS test, it would be interesting to see Ukraine branch formed.
I could upgrade my bigY500 to bigY700 but there is no some big use of it, TMRCA would rise for maybe 50 or 100 years.

We are distant relatives, TMRCA 5700 years, thats true...


Your Ukraine branch is smaller brother clade to two largest branches CTS1969 (Europe and Middle East) and Y45447 (Oman Yemen Saudi).

We are all distant cousins separated 5000 - 5700 ybp.

Mich Glitch
21-06-19, 19:42
Thank you for information.

haplogroup_king
29-06-19, 08:56
Hi cousins




THERE IS SAMPLE FROM EGYPT, HOPFELLY it can make change specially on the roof of the m205.

we are waiting the surprises

Dema
27-07-19, 17:31
Regarding M205 at Albanians we have tested two of our southern branches for PF7321 and CTS1969 SNPs, they both turned out PF7321+ and CTS1969-.
As Flor has let me know our larger Tosk branch has initiated bigY test so in near future it will appear in Yfull. It would be helpful if our Gogo cluster would also do bigY

So far i have 11 Albanians identified as M205 in 4 different branches, one of these we still dont have in project its branch found in Tirana with DYS388=12 (huge multistep).

British clade Y64012 remains the only known clade which is PF7321 negative.

Regarding my branch Y22059, it is still unknown but it signals it could be ancient regarding Mediterranean Sea (Early separation) with its TMRCA 1000 years pointing founder effect probably of Montenegrin 12 century tribe that everyone recorded as natives. Probably of Albanian origin or very similar to Albanian. Branch does not exist in Slovenia, and in Croatia is mostly found in Serbs (same in Bosnia) that are known as more recent arrival somewhere from South Serbia and probably Montenegro. Testifying its southern origin.

Arnguth
27-08-19, 18:59
Hi everyone! First off, I am pretty much really ignorant about haplogroup. By the way I tested myself on 23andme and I got J-M205 as haplogroup.
Few months after I tested my father with LivingDNA and he get J-M102. Which is kinda confusing for me. Dema suggested to post here on this thread.
I have some questions by the way.
Me and my father belong both to jm205 because livingdna do not analizes sub-clades?
I am from Northern Italy, eastern part, I am 100% from Veneto region, coast zone. I suppose J2 arrived here through greek people during the byzantine period, is this right?
Is j2b1 connected to people like the Assyrian or Carthaginians or Hittites, and through them it arrived in Anatolia and Greece?

Thanks for your time and sorry if I did some stupid questions, but I'm totally new to this world.
I will take new tests to analyze my sublcade.

Mich Glitch
27-08-19, 19:10
Hello Arnguth (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/56658-Arnguth),

What about FTDNA test (Big Y 700)? Did you think about this?

Unfortunately 23andMe results aren't very precise. You should to order any advanced STR and SNP test.

Arnguth
27-08-19, 20:09
Yes I will do it soon!

Mich Glitch
27-08-19, 21:01
So, we'll see.

:)

Arnguth
27-08-19, 21:33
By the way , someone can answer my questions please?

Mich Glitch
27-08-19, 22:10
No.
We have no answer.
Hypothesis only.

dnainte
03-09-19, 18:51
My dante labs sample just got posted on yfull :good_job: Analysis still in progress :annoyed:

It's the first palestinian sample under YP-13 and currently labeled YP-13*

Dema
20-09-19, 15:15
I suppose J2 arrived here through greek people during the byzantine period, is this right?


This was theory i made long ago and i gave up from it after realizing situation better and learning new finds. It was theory based mostly on TMRCA of one subclade (Y22066/Y22059 Balkan cluster). But as it turns out Y22066 has very early separation from its brother clades in Middle East and Mediterranean Europe, up to 5000 years. Therefore it is most likely expansion happened much earlier, perhaps in Bronze Age. It is typical situation for Balkan branches to have similar TMRCA so this is nothing out of ordinary and i made a mistake thinking that TMRCA of particular sublcade tells its arrival time.

There is no proof for any J2-M205 subclade that expanded in Byzantine period. There is South Italy sample which shares TMRCA with Yemen sample in isolated branch 2000 ybp, so perhaps it is Roman time expansion, but other then that most of subclades seem to expand much earlier since we can find J2-M205 along Mediterranean Sea in multiple subclades that separated one from another in timeframe of 5000 - 6000 ybp, so everything looks like Early Bronze Age expansion from direction of Middle East.



Is j2b1 connected to people like the Assyrian or Carthaginians or Hittites, and through them it arrived in Anatolia and Greece?

No doubt about Phoenicians since Canaanite sample in ancient Sidon 1700 BCE was J2-M205. Also nearby Jordanian mountain sample 2500 - 2000 BCE was J2-M205.
So far i consider it Proto-Semitic with its main expansion in Middle East, TMRCA 5700 ybp.

There is hope for Akkadians and Sumerians, lets see in future : ) But even the ancient Jordanian M205 sample goes strait into early Akkadian period.

It would be helpful if you would do WGS test and upload to Yfull tree. There is at least 4 different M205 branches in Italy. Even my Balkan subclade is identified in parts of Northern Italy. After WGS test we will have better idea about your specific branch, but no matter the subclade there is no doubt that you share same ancestor with all M205 samples in timeframe of 5700 ybp. :good_job:

Dema
20-09-19, 17:57
My dante labs sample just got posted on yfull :good_job: Analysis still in progress :annoyed:

It's the first palestinian sample under YP-13 and currently labeled YP-13*

Very good. As it looks there is high diversity of J2-M205 among Palestinians, and so far all of them belong to CTS1969.
CTS1969 is typical for Middle East and Europe.


Your specific branch M205>YP13* looks like Phoenician line that expanded from territory of Middle East to Sardinia and all the way to England where your Yfull relatives are. TMRCA 5700 years.

dnainte
28-09-19, 12:42
Thank you Dema for all the info :good_job: I've been lurking for a while and following all discussions even the heated Albanian ones :grin:

My ancestors are olive farmers and very close to the coast so the Sardinian and English relatives make sense, as you mentioned.

For what it's worth and this is only oral info, 500 years ago the other half of my ancestors' tribe were residing in northern Hijaz.

In any case, I'm looking forward for what the coming days and 2020 will unveil :heart:

Dema
12-10-19, 13:23
Very interestingly we got few new samples on Yfull, like Egypt, Iraq, Saudi. I will wait for another Albanian sample and then give another full analysis of all branches.
It would be good if Greece and Cyprus would do WGS tests and upload on Yfull, so we can get more complete picture.

Also our French sample sadly didnt upload to Yfull after doing WGS test, which would be very helpful.

ShpataEMadhe
20-10-19, 13:06
Can you add more middle eastern to your map, it is definitely out of date. The almost complete lack of j2b m205 in albanians yet j2b-l283 being strong shows that it is foreign for the country and probably recent, also it seems there are more south albanians (~1%) with this than north albanians (almost non existant) yet north albanians have much more l283 than south albanians.

The big amount (still minor) in serbia is interesting, as well as Bosnia, Croatia and Greece

Dema
20-10-19, 16:04
You again :satisfied:



Can you add more middle eastern to your map, it is definitely out of date.

To who are you talking to? If to Maciamo then i agree with you. Middle East should definitively be entire painted with at least 1 % of J2b-M205, as i already gave references in another thread about countries in Middle East. Also Balkan is over painted, its not like that in reality.


The almost complete lack of j2b m205 in albanians yet j2b-l283 being strong shows that it is foreign for the country and probably recent, also it seems there are more south albanians (~1%) with this than north albanians (almost non existant) yet north albanians have much more l283 than south albanians.


You do understand that more then 95 % of Albanian J2b-L283 falls under PH1751 with TMRCA 1200 years, do you? Therefore percentage is not that important as obvious expansion happened in Middle Ages of Common Era. J2-M205 is considered native for Mediterranean Sea, and Albania is also part of it. However since J2-L283 is considered Illyrian (Indo-European distant origin), and J2-M205 Phoenician (Semitic distant origin), they most likely achieved first contact somewhere in Mediterranean Sea in timeframe of 1500 - 500 BCE.

J2-M205 is micro haplogroup meaning it does not reach high percentage anywhere in the world. So if we are going by this logic then i guess M205 is not native to Earth at all since wherever we look there are haplogroups with higher percentage then M205.... I hope you do realize how silly you sound..

Do you know that both Greek and Latin alphabets have origin in Phoenician (Semitic) one?
Are you aware that Phoenicians owned and controlled most of Mediterranean Sea since 1500 BC until the Punic Wars (200 BC) ? Also had colonies in Greece, N Africa, Spain, Sicily, Sardinia, and they sailed all the way to England?

Do you realize that wheel invention, agro culture knowledge, and civilization (including modern alphabet and religions) come from Middle East?
Do you realize that both Greeks and Romans copied Phoenician ship models?
Do you know that J2b-M205 has 1700 BCE ancient DNA found in Sidon which was one of primary Phoenician city/states?

So, if you are literate to begin with, you were most likely influenced by J2b-M205 in the first Millennium BCE.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet#Origins
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_alphabet#Origins

Lack of J2-M205 among Albanians would be extremely unusual since we find it in almost all Mediterranean populations.
However its not like that. Albanian project will soon have around 1 % of J2-M205 (which is usual ratio for this haplogroup), and as it looks so far we have high diversity of J2-M205 among Albanians. Because even tho i know only for about 12 Albanian samples, we can identify 4 different branches among these samples that separated for around 6000 years one from another. Also in Albania we can find J2-M205 from North to the South in these various branches.



The big amount (still minor) in serbia is interesting, as well as Bosnia, Croatia

Indeed, it all belongs to one more northern branch Y22059/Y22066 TMRCA 1000 years, which is connected to pre-Slavic Montenegrin early tribe from 12 century (Kriçi). Most likely with Albanian origin. In Montenegro we can also find lots of Albanian haplogroups like 30 % of E-v13 which is extremely unusual percentage of E-v13 for South Slavs but also for Slavs in general. In compare to Slovenia with 3 % of E-v13 and 0 % of J2-M205, Serbs/Montenegrins have about 10x higher these percentages which clearly indicates they are most likely of Albanian origin (even supported by most clades). J2-M205 in South Slavs is result of slavicization of their territories, just as majority of that E-v13, J2b-L283 and R1b.

Wherever we find J2-M205 in higher percentages in South Slavs we also find there very high percentage of E-v13 which tells they might have live together once, for example in Montenegro.


Now excuse me, seems like there were some major changes happened in J2-M205 Yfull tree i want to post about.

hrvat22
20-10-19, 16:35
This branch(J2-M205) seems to bypass Albanian area and Albanians in a higher percentage.
Possibly this is migration of Vlachs from direction of Bulgaria or Romania to Bosnia and Croatia.

I've talked about this before, for now YFull tree does not shows mutations with a source in the Albanian area nor in Montenegro. Unfortunately Bulgarian mutations(Y22059) are not on the YFull tree, so we cannot prove this direction of migration either, but this branch is more widespread there (Bulgaria).

Dema
20-10-19, 17:13
This branch(J2-M205) seems to bypass Albanian area and Albanians in a higher percentage.

What branch? All branches are under J2-M205. Do you mean Y22059 that you wrote below?
Read my upper post, stop posting nonsense. Albanians have J2-M205 from North to South in multiple branches, including Y22059.



Possibly this is migration of Vlachs from direction of Bulgaria or Romania to Bosnia and Croatia.

Balkan Vlachs (including Albanian Vlachs, Serbian Vlachs, Romanian Vlachs, Greece Vlachs) have been already tested. Also there was also major Aromun/Vlach study (Bosch et al 2006). In entire Bosch et al 2006 there was only one Vlach J2-M205 sample and he was from Albania. Also his only relative is Albanian from Albania, also Greek and Sicilian. J2-M205 has no connection whatsoever to Vlachs but to Early Civilizations of Mesopotamia.



I've talked about this before, for now YFull tree does not shows mutations with a source in the Albanian area nor in Montenegro. Unfortunately Bulgarian mutations(Y22059) are not on the YFull tree, so we cannot prove this direction of migration either, but this branch is more widespread there (Bulgaria).


Bulgarians have very few samples of J2-M205, also J2-M205>Y22059. It is really insignificant in Bulgaria. Also Bulgaria was melting point of many populations so even if we find it there it has no big meaning. Its still a Balkan.

Y22059 neither J2-M205 is not more widespread in Bulgaria. Dont speak nonsense and misinformation.


Y22059/Y22066 is M205+, PF7321+, CTS1969+, YP51+ with closest relatives in Middle East and Mediterranean Europe but with separation time about 5000 years before present.


Y22

Dema
20-10-19, 17:14
Incredibly, looks like our Palestine Jenin and Saudi samples had very big impact on Yfull TMRCA calculations!
Some samples are still under process and some are still missing within calculation so i think we should wait some time for everything to finish.
But as it looks for now, samples under CTS1969 upped the entire TMRCA from 5700 years to 8300 years.
Also CTS1969 now has formed date 8300 years and TMRCA 8300 years.
This is very very significant change within the J2-M205 and reveals the picture even further.


J2-M205 TMRCA is now very close to first farmer Neolithic sample from Zagros - Tepe Abdol Husain (J2b-M12* 19001, skeleton #1, sample AH2)


So far situation is something like this:

8000 BCE oldest J2b* ancient DNA, Zagros Tepe Abdul Hosein (first farmers).
6300 BCE J2b-M205 TMRCA (settlements in Byblos then first irrigation and flood control in Mesopotamia).
2500 BCE oldest J2b-M205 ancient DNA in Northwest Jordan Ain Ghazal.
1700 BCE second oldest J2b-M205 ancient DNA in Sidon (Canaanite).
700 BCE third oldest J2b-M205 ancient DNA sample in Egyptian mummy.

I already have further theory about many branches, looks like second Albanian branch is tested in Dantelabs so it might take some time until it is uploaded to Yfull but we already know it is PF7321+ and CTS1969-. I will wait for it to be uploaded to Yfull and then give another opinion on all branches.

So far situation is looking very interesting. Also if situation remains like this J2-M205 is not considered Proto-Semitic anymore but Pre-Semitic and also Pre-Sumerian. TMRCA 8300 years.

hrvat22
20-10-19, 19:22
Dema (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/54609-Dema)



What branch? All branches are under J2-M205. Do you mean Y22059 that you wrote below?
Read my upper post, stop posting nonsense. Albanians have J2-M205 from North to South in multiple branches, including Y22059.

Yes and? Bulgarians and Romanians also have it.

I'm talking about branch Y22059.

Not all branches of J2, E1b, R1b in the Balkans are Albanian origin and originating in the Albanian area.

If you have proof that branch Y22059 has source in Albania and Albanians then bring that evidence to the sun(I mean a 1000 year old mutation) and I will respect that. So far there is no such evidence and I have not seen it.



Balkan Vlachs (including Albanian Vlachs, Serbian Vlachs, Romanian Vlachs, Greece Vlachs) have been already tested. Also there was also major Aromun/Vlach study (Bosch et al 2006). In entire Bosch et al 2006 there was only one Vlach J2-M205 sample and he was from Albania. Also his only relative is Albanian from Albania, also Greek and Sicilian. J2-M205 has no connection whatsoever to Vlachs but to Early Civilizations of Mesopotamia.

Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia as well as some Croats, Bosniaks etc have branch Y22059 and they are also mentioned as Vlachs(historical records). That branch mostly have Serbs. Thus branch Y22059 have connection and with Vlachs.



Bulgarians have very few samples of J2-M205, also J2-M205>Y22059. It is really insignificant in Bulgaria. Also Bulgaria was melting point of many populations so even if we find it there it has no big meaning. Its still a Balkan.

I look at public data and so far there are most Bulgarians and people from Croatia with that branch.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J2-M172?iframe=ymap

For now these connection with Bulgaria exist, when more specific genetic data arrives in the future then we will make more accurate conclusion.


Y22059 neither J2-M205 is not more widespread in Bulgaria. Dont speak nonsense and misinformation.

Unfortunately i only have a public database and that is basis for my conclusions.


Y22059/Y22066 is M205+, PF7321+, CTS1969+, YP51+ with closest relatives in Middle East and Mediterranean Europe but with separation time about 5000 years before present.

I'm talking about migrations 500 or 300 years ago, I'm not talking about migration from Africa 100,000 years ago.

Dibran
20-10-19, 21:10
You do understand that more then 95 % of Albanian J2b-L283 falls under PH1751 with TMRCA 1200 years, do you? .

I’m sorry but I have to call you out on how wrong you are. I would expect you to fact check on the group page before making a statement like that. Unless you have access to some information not publicly available to the group.

j2b-L283 Albanians are not 95 percent PH1751. That is a false statement. One I mainly hear from Serbs trying to claim a lack of diversity in Albanians to disassociate their connection to Illyrians given the Proto-Illyrian J2b-L283. Of course I am not accusing you of this.

If you would just do some basic math, out of the current 142 or AI samples only 72 of them are PH1751. Of course it is a monumental cluster that dominates. But you added 45 percent to that number which is completely false.

there is quite a bit of diversity forming in Albanian J2b-L283. In fact, in an under sampled area such as Diber; every J2b-L283 has been unique. Many places remain untested.

Sure we only have 800+ samples at the moment, but I wouldn’t try and reduce J2b-L283 in Albanians to some small young cluster lacking diversity. That’s simply not true.

whilst your line is definitely diverse in Albanians thus far, there are only 3 clusters among 6 users.

there’s far more diversity in J2b-L283 despite what you mentioned.

http://www.gjenetika.com/rezultatet/

Kelmendasi
20-10-19, 21:27
If you would just do some basic math, out of the current 142 or AI samples only 72 of them are PH1751. Of course it is a monumental cluster that dominates. But you added 45 percent to that number which is completely false.

From what I see on our results document there are 159 samples that fall under L283, 77 of which are PH1751+. This would mean that ~48% of Albanian J-L283 is PH1751+. The second largest cluster is Y23094+ at ~17.6%. There are also other clades under Z631 and CTS11100 which are below 10%.

Dibran
20-10-19, 21:32
From what I see on our results document there are 159 samples that fall under L283, 77 of which are PH1751+. This would mean that ~48% of Albanian J-L283 is PH1751+. The second largest cluster is Y23094+ at ~17.6%. There are also other clades under Z631 and CTS11100 which are below 10%.

I don’t believe I have access to that list. Going off of Gjenetika it was roughly that so we are in the same ballpark. 95 percent though is grossly incorrect.

Dema
20-10-19, 22:03
Yes and? Bulgarians and Romanians also have it.

I'm talking about branch Y22059.

You first said J2-M205, but even the Y22059 is part of M205 so i dont see what the big deal is.
Y22059 is more northern branch of J2-M205, as majority of branches are more South, like Mediterranean Sea or Middle East.

All Bulgarian samples seem to fall under Y22059, with specific DYS385 value 15-19. Meaning there is low variations of J2-M205 in Bulgaria since they all belong to same branch (Balkan cluster), and also they have low variations since they have similar STRs values.
In central Balkan there is way higher percentage and variations of M205 in general but also of specific Y22059 branch then in both Bulgaria or Romania.

In Romania J2-M205 is almost none existent. In FTDNA project there is only one sample and its in Y22059 branch.

According to 3 different surnames, that are Kriçi related, they all turned out Y22059 branch, meaning that Kriçi tribe was most likely Y22059.
Kriçi is 12 century Montenegrin none Slavic tribe. If they were Vlachs or if they spoken Latin, that would be known as Latin was famous language.
What could they be if they were 12 century Montenegrin Pred-Slavic tribe ? Most likely of Illyrian/Albanian origin since there is not many options left.

So Y22059 is identified within 12 century Montenegrin tribe, and its TMRCA is 1000 years. Therefore most likely it originates in Montenegro also, where is found in highest percentages and with highest variations in area of Montenegro, Albania, Kosovo and Southwest Serbia.

They are of Albanian origin but slavicised. Also in Albania there is 4 different branches identified while Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia or Croatia have only Y22059 which is Illyrian/Albanian Montenegrin branch which we can find there because of slavicization of Montenegro and surrounding areas.



Not all branches of J2, E1b, R1b in the Balkans are Albanian origin and originating in the Albanian area.

Almost all J2b-L283, and E-v13 in Montenegrins and Serbs is of Albanian origin. That can be easily seen even with subclades in Yfull where Montenegrins and Serbs share plenty of subclades or are direct brother clades to Albanians. Also all R1b-BY611 Montenegrins, Serbs or Croats are of Albanian origin.

Same with J2b-Y22059, if its native Montenegrin then i dont see what else could it be then Albanian lol.



If you have proof that branch Y22059 has source in Albania and Albanians then bring that evidence to the sun(I mean a 1000 year old mutation) and I will respect that. So far there is no such evidence and I have not seen it.

We have Y22059 in Kosovo Albanians, Montenegro Albanians, and now recently in North Albanians from Shkodra that belong to Lohja tribe.
Also Shkodra Lohja sample seems to have unique DYS385 and it would be interesting if he does bigY.

As said Albanians have multiple branches of J2-M205, while in Serbia/Croatia/Montenegro its all Y22059 which is connected to Montenegrin Pred-Slavic tribe of most likely Albanian origin. presence of Y22059 in Croats, Serbs or Montenegrins is result of slavicization of their native territories and therefore of them.



Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia as well as some Croats, Bosniaks etc have branch Y22059 and they are also mentioned as Vlachs(historical records). That branch mostly have Serbs. Thus branch Y22059 have connection and with Vlachs.

Yes, Serbs in Croatia (Krajina) and in Republika Srpska in Bosnia seem to have unusually high percentage of E-v13 and J2-M205 in compare to their Croat/Bosnjak/Slovene neighbors. Actually as far as i looked on subclades it seems as Croatian/Bosnian "Vlachs" are actually Albano/Illyrians in origin.
It makes sense since they were recorded to arrive somewhere from South Serbia and Montenegro in 14 century to defend against Ottoman Empire.
Here is one such a branch for example: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y30991/

So they dont fall in Vlach subclades, but actually in Albanian subclades : )



I look at public data and so far there are most Bulgarians and people from Croatia with that branch.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J2-M172?iframe=ymap

For now these connection with Bulgaria exist, when more specific genetic data arrives in the future then we will make more accurate conclusion.

In Croatia is mostly Serbs, even tho there is real Croats also. I explained to you in this post where and when they come from and what are they in origin.
In Bulgaria is all expansion from Montenegrin Pred-Slavic tribe with 1000 years TMRCA. Also its only few samples with no variations. It has absolutely no connection to Turkic languages as Bulgar or Slavic as modern Bulgarian.

Y22066 has its first relatives and is equal brother clade to subclades in Palestine, Iraq, Kuvait, Armenia, Greek from Turkey, France, England, Sardinia...

They are separated 4900 years one from another but still closest relatives! Therefore Phoenician expansion makes much more sense then some Bulgarian or Romanian connection lol.


I dont see why is there need to connect subclade to Romanians or Bulgarians when simply it has no connection to them. We can find Y22059 in Italy, Greece, Albania, Kosovo, Sweden, but still it all has origin in Pred-Slavic Montenegrin population from 1000 years ago. And prior to that origin is clear by looking on Yfull:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22075/

Dema
20-10-19, 22:42
I’m sorry but I have to call you out on how wrong you are. I would expect you to fact check on the group page before making a statement like that. Unless you have access to some information not publicly available to the group.

j2b-L283 Albanians are not 95 percent PH1751. That is a false statement. One I mainly hear from Serbs trying to claim a lack of diversity in Albanians to disassociate their connection to Illyrians given the Proto-Illyrian J2b-L283. Of course I am not accusing you of this.

If you would just do some basic math, out of the current 142 or AI samples only 72 of them are PH1751. Of course it is a monumental cluster that dominates. But you added 45 percent to that number which is completely false

there is quite a bit of diversity forming in Albanian J2b-L283. In fact, in an under sampled area such as Diber; every J2b-L283 has been unique. Many places remain untested.

Sure we only have 800+ samples at the moment, but I wouldn’t try and reduce J2b-L283 in Albanians to some small young cluster lacking diversity. That’s simply not true.



http://www.gjenetika.com/rezultatet/


Well i am sure that PH1751 used to dominate way more before, there was few Hoti or unclassified samples but i believe it was way larger before in regard of percentage. However you are right, i didnt check statistics but i spoken out of a mind and as it seems few things have changed.

Albanian L283 is definitively connected to ancient DNA found in Dalmatia therefore i dont see how someone like Serbs you mention is trying to disapprove its Illyrian origin.

Anyways what i wanted to point is that percentage of some haplogroup does not tell how old it is. Even if its half of Albanian L283 it still expaned in only last 1200 years, so its valid example.




whilst your line is definitely diverse in Albanians thus far, there are only 3 clusters among 6 users.

there’s far more diversity in J2b-L283 despite what you mentioned.

Actually J2-M205 has higher diversity among Albanians then J2-L283. Look in link you gave Y22066 samples are CTS1969+, while South Albanian samples are CTS1969-. CTS1969 is 8300 years old, therefore Albanian TMRCA of J2-M205 is 8300 years. While Albanian TMRCA of J2-L283 is 4900 years. Meaning Albanians belonging to J2-M205 have higher diversity then Albanians belonging to J2-L283.

Also there is fourth cluster which is identified in Tirana in public studies but we still dont have it in project.

But this is absolutely irrelevant since i think J2-L283 is older in Dalmatian coast, while J2-M205 expanded with Phoenicians or later.

Dema
20-10-19, 22:54
From what I see on our results document there are 159 samples that fall under L283, 77 of which are PH1751+. This would mean that ~48% of Albanian J-L283 is PH1751+. The second largest cluster is Y23094+ at ~17.6%. There are also other clades under Z631 and CTS11100 which are below 10%.

You miss about 25 % there. I think there is chance that many of unclassified L283 samples will turn out PH1751. In future PH1751 might be over 51 %.

hrvat22
20-10-19, 23:11
Dema (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/54609-Dema)


You first said J2-M205, but even the Y22059 is part of M205 so i dont see what the big deal is.
Y22059 is more northern branch of J2-M205, as majority of branches are more South, like Mediterranean Sea or Middle East.

Where is source of that branch and where is the proof (which mutation)?


All Bulgarian samples seem to fall under Y22059, with specific DYS385 value 15-19. Meaning there is low variations of J2-M205 in Bulgaria since they all belong to same branch (Balkan cluster), and also they have low variations since they have similar STRs values.
In central Balkan there is way higher percentage and variations of M205 in general but also of specific Y22059 branch then in both Bulgaria or Romania.

In Croatia exist that branch (Balkan cluster) and based on that I make conclusion.


According to 3 different surnames, that are Kriçi related, they all turned out Y22059 branch, meaning that Kriçi tribe was most likely Y22059.
Kriçi is 12 century Montenegrin none Slavic tribe. If they were Vlachs or if they spoken Latin, that would be known as Latin was famous language.
What could they be if they were 12 century Montenegrin Pred-Slavic tribe ? Most likely of Illyrian/Albanian origin since there is not many options left.

We don’t know it yet because we don’t know migration of Y22059 peoples in that area(Bulgaria, Serbia, Albania etc)


So Y22059 is identified within 12 century Montenegrin tribe, and its TMRCA is 1000 years. Therefore most likely it originates in Montenegro also, where is found in highest percentages and with highest variations in area of Montenegro, Albania, Kosovo and Southwest Serbia.

For now we have no evidence for that, if you have evidence show genetic data.


They are of Albanian origin but slavicised. Also in Albania there is 4 different branches identified while Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia or Croatia have only Y22059 which is Illyrian/Albanian Montenegrin branch which we can find there because of slavicization of Montenegro and surrounding areas.

If Albanians have 4 branches then these mutations must also exist in the Croatian Serbs, where they are?
It is logical that this branch exist and migrate in that area( Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia or Croatia) if this branch only exist in that area.
However, once when we find out migration path of that branch then we will know more precisely.

In Bulgaria exist many branches of J2 haplotype so maybe source of this branch is there.


Almost all J2b-L283, and E-v13 in Montenegrins and Serbs is of Albanian origin. That can be easily seen even with subclades in Yfull where Montenegrins and Serbs share plenty of subclades or are direct brother clades to Albanians. Also all R1b-BY611 Montenegrins, Serbs or Croats are of Albanian origin.


No one has Albanian origin they have Vlachs origin, Albanians are not mentioned in Croatia at least not in large numbers. Whether these Vlachs were originally Albanian origin probable they are but not all, there are also migrations from Bulgaria, possibly other countries. Genetics will say that in the future.



We have Y22059 in Kosovo Albanians, Montenegro Albanians, and now recently in North Albanians from Shkodra that belong to Lohja tribe.
Also Shkodra Lohja sample seems to have unique DYS385 and it would be interesting if he does bigY.

As said Albanians have multiple branches of J2-M205, while in Serbia/Croatia/Montenegro its all Y22059 which is connected to Montenegrin Pred-Slavic tribe of most likely Albanian origin. presence of Y22059 in Croats, Serbs or Montenegrins is result of slavicization of their native territories and therefore of them.

Therefore you have no proof that branch Y22059 has its source in Albania.
The fact that this branch exists in Albania does not mean that it could not have come from Bulgaria to Albania. Vlachs probably came from area of Bulgaria as well, otherwise in southern Serbia Bulgarians are also mentioned, they probably brought and some genetics.


Yes, Serbs in Croatia (Krajina) and in Republika Srpska in Bosnia seem to have unusually high percentage of E-v13 and J2-M205 in compare to their Croat/Bosnjak/Slovene neighbors. Actually as far as i looked on subclades it seems as Croatian/Bosnian "Vlachs" are actually Albano/Illyrians in origin.

Probably yes but for now branch Y22059 points more to the Bulgarian direction of migration.


It makes sense since they were recorded to arrive somewhere from South Serbia and Montenegro in 14 century to defend against Ottoman Empire.

They did not come to defend against Ottoman Empire, they come with Turks.


So they dont fall in Vlach subclades, but actually in Albanian subclades : )

Written records mention Vlachs, and originally they may be Albanians, Bulgarians etc, we will know this more accurately in the future, but for sure they are mostly original Albanians.


In Croatia is mostly Serbs, even tho there is real Croats also. I explained to you in this post where and when they come from and what are they in origin.
In Bulgaria is all expansion from Montenegrin Pred-Slavic tribe with 1000 years TMRCA. Also its only few samples with no variations. It has absolutely no connection to Turkic languages as Bulgar or Slavic as modern Bulgarian.

First prove by written documents that someone migrates from Montenegro to Bulgaria, when you do it then I will answer.


Y22066 has its first relatives and is equal brother clade to subclades in Palestine, Iraq, Kuvait, Armenia, Greek from Turkey, France, England, Sardinia...

I'm interested in younger mutations this is old connection (formed 5700 ybp, TMRCA 4900 ybp)


They are separated 4900 years one from another but still closest relatives! Therefore Phoenician expansion makes much more sense then some Bulgarian or Romanian connection lol.

We are talking about migration in the Turkish era.


I dont see why is there need to connect subclade to Romanians or Bulgarians when simply it has no connection to them. We can find Y22059 in Italy, Greece, Albania, Kosovo, Sweden, but still it all has origin in Pred-Slavic Montenegrin population from 1000 years ago. And prior to that origin is clear by looking on Yfull:

For now there is an older mutation in Serbia and Bosnia (TMRCA), so for now it would be reverse direction of migration. That's why i say we still have to wait.

Kelmendasi
20-10-19, 23:23
You miss about 25 % there. I think there is chance that many of unclassified L283 samples will turn out PH1751. In future PH1751 might be over 51 %.
I wasn't aiming to give a complete breakdown of the J-L283 percentages, only PH1751+ and Y23094+ which is why I gave a more precise percentage for them. Some of the unclassified samples may turn out to be PH1751+ but some may also turn out to be Y23094+ such as the cluster (L283>Cluster A) found in Eastern Albania and Western Macedonia.

Dibran
20-10-19, 23:24
Well i am sure that PH1751 used to dominate way more before, there was few Hoti or unclassified samples but i believe it was way larger before in regard of percentage. However you are right, i didnt check statistics but i spoken out of a mind and as it seems few things have changed.

Albanian L283 is definitively connected to ancient DNA found in Dalmatia therefore i dont see how someone like Serbs you mention is trying to disapprove its Illyrian origin.

Anyways what i wanted to point is that percentage of some haplogroup does not tell how old it is. Even if its half of Albanian L283 it still expaned in only last 1200 years, so its valid example.




Actually J2-M205 has higher diversity among Albanians then J2-L283. Look in link you gave Y22066 samples are CTS1969+, while South Albanian samples are CTS1969-. CTS1969 is 8300 years old, therefore Albanian TMRCA of J2-M205 is 8300 years. While Albanian TMRCA of J2-L283 is 4900 years. Meaning Albanians belonging to J2-M205 have higher diversity then Albanians belonging to J2-L283.

Also there is fourth cluster which is identified in Tirana in public studies but we still dont have it in project.

But this is absolutely irrelevant since i think J2-L283 is older in Dalmatian coast, while J2-M205 expanded with Phoenicians or later.


I think you’re misconstruing how diverse it is and what that means in the way of Albanian ethnogenesis. Idk much about your lines origin. I’m not talking about ages of branches. We’re speaking of the false statement you made that there is little to no diversity and almost 100 percent PH1751.

J2b-L283 is not only more prevalent but more diverse than your line in Albanians. Age has nothing to do with diversity. I believe diversity has more to do with the abundance of different clades of the same branch. Regardless of their ages. So yea some diversity in a small group of your line. This is not however more diverse and more pivotal to Albanians than J2b-L283 is overall. I have no idea where you pulled that idea from.

If anything J1 in Albanians seems to be very diverse and forming a respectable 3% besides other minimal lineages, and can already see a breakdown of roughly 9-10 clusters, which shows an immense diversity for a small sample size.

none of them date to the ottoman period either and likely all arrived between the Bronze and very early Middle Ages if I’m not mistaken. Il defer to Kelmendasi on that as I am sure he’s done more research on the lineage.

Kelmendasi
20-10-19, 23:52
none of them date to the ottoman period either and likely all arrived between the Bronze and very early Middle Ages if I’m not mistaken. Il defer to Kelmendasi on that as I am sure he’s done more research on the lineage.
Based on current data, the J1 clades found in Albanians seem to have primarily arrived between the Late Bronze Age and Byzantine Period. So you are correct. Majority fall under P58 which is a major clade under J1. The clades under P58 include Z1884 (Z1884>L829 and Z1884>FGC11) and Y3081 (ZS241). Both of these clusters are best associated with the Central Semitic branch of Semitic, this branch is comprised of the NW branch (Canaanite and Aramaic), Arabic and some extinct languages such as Amorite. Y3081 itself is best linked to Canaanite, especially Jews or Hebrew speakers. Z1884 has branches which can be linked to the Arabs (FGC11+) as well as branches that can be linked to the Phoenicians (L829+). Should be noted that FGC11 was found in a Bronze Age sample from Sidon, Lebanon, so it is Pre-Arabic. The Albanian L829 seems pretty unique and possibly arrived during the Late Bronze Age, my Y3081 is also pretty unique but I think it's most likely that it arrived after the Iron Age (Probably Roman or Hellenistic period).

There is a clade that likely arrived during the Neolithic or earlier, this clade is J-Y19093 which is a CHG branch and comes from Y6305 which was found in Paleolithic Georgia. In Albanians so far it seems to be most common in Albanians from Malesi (Montenegro side). There are also clades under L620 and Z1828 which may have arrived during the Bronze Age or a little later.

Dema
20-10-19, 23:55
I think you’re misconstruing how diverse it is and what that means in the way of Albanian ethnogenesis. Idk much about your lines origin. I’m not talking about ages of branches. We’re speaking of the false statement you made that there is little to no diversity and almost 100 percent PH1751.

This is not true. You are now putting words into my mouth lol. I never mentioned L283 diversity but what i said is that more then 95 % of L283 is PH1751.
Well, what i should have said is majority of Albanian L283 is PH1751. But if you read posts prior to that my argument is still valid even tho its not 95 % but 50 % and still majority. I know about Albanian L283 TMRCA, its 4400 years.




J2b-L283 is not only more prevalent but more diverse than your line in Albanians. Age has nothing to do with diversity. I already mentioned there’s only 3 differences for 6 kits. So yea some diversity in a small group of your line. This is not however more diverse and more pivotal to Albanians than J2b-L283 is overall. I have no idea where you pulled that idea from.

You are forcing that L283 is more diverse among Albanian while M205 has higher TMRCA, lol.
If we have two group of organisms, and one group has TMRCA 8300 years, while another group has TMRCA 4400 years, which group is more diverse?

Logic, no?




If anything J1 in Albanians seems to be very diverse and forming a respectable 3% besides other minimal lineages, and can already see a breakdown of roughly 9-10 clusters, which shows an immense diversity for a small sample size.

none of them date to the ottoman period either and likely all arrived between the Bronze and very early Middle Ages if I’m not mistaken. Il defer to Kelmendasi on that as I am sure he’s done more research on the lineage.


J1 diversified since Paleolithic 18200 years ago, while J2-M205 8300 years ago.

Also J1 is not on same level as J2-M205. J1 is on J2 level, while J2-M205 is in fact J2>M102>M205.

Therefore we cant compare them at the same level, and J1 should definitively be compared and looked upon branch by branch.
Anyways i dont see why you started to speak about J1 now out of the sky : ) This is J2 Eupedia forum section, J1 is debated in J1 section.

Kelmendasi
20-10-19, 23:58
This is not true. You are now putting words into my mouth lol. I never mentioned L283 diversity but what i said is that more then 95 % of L283 is PH1751.
Well, what i should have said is majority of Albanian L283 is PH1751. But if you read posts prior to that my argument is still valid even tho its not 95 % but 50 % and still majority. I know about Albanian L283 TMRCA, its 4400 years.





You are forcing that L283 is more diverse among Albanian while M205 has higher TMRCA, lol.
If we have two group of organisms, and one group has TMRCA 8300 years, while another group has TMRCA 4400 years, which group is more diverse?

Logic, no?




J1 diversified since Paleolithic 18200 years ago, while J2-M205 8300 years ago.

Also J1 is not on same level as J2-M205. J1 is on J2 level, while J2-M205 is in fact J2>M102>M205.

Therefore we cant compare them at the same level, and J1 should definitively be compared and looked upon branch by branch.
Anyways i dont see why you started to speak about J1 now out of the sky : ) This is J2 Eupedia forum section, J1 is debated in J1 section.
Sorry about the off topic J1 post btw.

Dibran
21-10-19, 00:28
This is not true. You are now putting words into my mouth lol. I never mentioned L283 diversity but what i said is that more then 95 % of L283 is PH1751.
Well, what i should have said is majority of Albanian L283 is PH1751. But if you read posts prior to that my argument is still valid even tho its not 95 % but 50 % and still majority. I know about Albanian L283 TMRCA, its 4400 years.





You are forcing that L283 is more diverse among Albanian while M205 has higher TMRCA, lol.
If we have two group of organisms, and one group has TMRCA 8300 years, while another group has TMRCA 4400 years, which group is more diverse?

Logic, no?




J1 diversified since Paleolithic 18200 years ago, while J2-M205 8300 years ago.

Also J1 is not on same level as J2-M205. J1 is on J2 level, while J2-M205 is in fact J2>M102>M205.

Therefore we cant compare them at the same level, and J1 should definitively be compared and looked upon branch by branch.
Anyways i dont see why you started to speak about J1 now out of the sky : ) This is J2 Eupedia forum section, J1 is debated in J1 section.

Look, there’s no need to turn this into a needless argument. I didn’t put words into your mouth. You literally said 95 percent of Albanian J2b-L283 is all PH1751 and that your lineage is more diverse than L283 in Albanians. There’s a big difference between 95 percent and 48 percent.

L283 has 5-6 main clusters(dominated by PH1751) with plenty of other small sub-clusters. It is very diverse in Albanians.

now you’re claiming the TMRCA of your lineage some how makes your lineage more diverse and somehow more pivotal to the progenitors of Albanians?

You can’t really be that uninformed can you? Albanians weren’t even around then, and the diversity of a lineage has less to do with age and more to do with actually DIVERSITY of branches/clades within a given population and their relative spread. the diversity of your line is the eastern Mediterranean. Within Albanians, currently until we have more samples and more clusters forming, your line compared to L283 plays a lesser role and lesser diversity in Albanians.

Your line may have entered very early. No question. This doesn’t make it the main lineage responsible for albanian ethnogenesis nor does its age have anything to do with our ethnogenesis.

I’m not forcing anything. I’m stating the plain facts. Doesn’t matter how old your line is or even if it was there before illyrians. It is not more diverse than J2b-L283 where it concerns Albanians and their ethnogenesis.

yes it’s a J2b sub-forum. Wasn’t trying to turn it into J1. I merely was illustrating it has far more diversity in Albanians than J2b-M205 or even J-L283 for instance but that doesn’t say much where it concerns the later albanian ethnogenesis and which lineages were more successful.

maybe you delivered your statements differently than you meant to convey. I responded to what you wrote though.

Dema
21-10-19, 00:30
Sorry about the off topic J1 post btw.Np, i am very interested about J1 also. As its clear J1 and J2-M205 lived side by side since at least 2000 BCE since they were together found in Sidon. Also its possible they expanded together.

Sadly i have not explored J1 too much.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Dibran
21-10-19, 00:40
Based on current data, the J1 clades found in Albanians seem to have primarily arrived between the Late Bronze Age and Byzantine Period. So you are correct. Majority fall under P58 which is a major clade under J1. The clades under P58 include Z1884 (Z1884>L829 and Z1884>FGC11) and Y3081 (ZS241). Both of these clusters are best associated with the Central Semitic branch of Semitic, this branch is comprised of the NW branch (Canaanite and Aramaic), Arabic and some extinct languages such as Amorite. Y3081 itself is best linked to Canaanite, especially Jews or Hebrew speakers. Z1884 has branches which can be linked to the Arabs (FGC11+) as well as branches that can be linked to the Phoenicians (L829+). Should be noted that FGC11 was found in a Bronze Age sample from Sidon, Lebanon, so it is Pre-Arabic. The Albanian L829 seems pretty unique and possibly arrived during the Late Bronze Age, my Y3081 is also pretty unique but I think it's most likely that it arrived after the Iron Age (Probably Roman or Hellenistic period).

There is a clade that likely arrived during the Neolithic or earlier, this clade is J-Y19093 which is a CHG branch and comes from Y6305 which was found in Paleolithic Georgia. In Albanians so far it seems to be most common in Albanians from Malesi (Montenegro side). There are also clades under L620 and Z1828 which may have arrived during the Bronze Age or a little later.

Thank you. That says a lot. Seems to have been very active in our neck of the woods for a very long time.

Kelmendasi
21-10-19, 00:50
Np, i am very interested about J1 also. As its clear J1 and J2-M205 lived side by side since at least 2000 BCE since they were together found in Sidon. Also its possible they expanded together.

Sadly i have not explored J1 too much.


Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)
I think both had something to do with the expansion and ethnos of Semitic speakers. J2-M205 can be compared to J1-P58 as both have TMRCA ~8,400 years ago. J-Z2324 was also found alongside J-M205 in Early Bronze Age Jordan (Ain Ghazal), both were also found in Pre-Ptolemaic Egypt.

Dema
21-10-19, 15:21
You are turning this into a needless argument. There is no need to compare J2-M205 and J2-L283 in such a matter.
It was other guy if you read better who started to compare it and he got all the things wrong. In this post : https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34743-J2b1-M205-introduced-to-Eupedia/page14?p=588022&viewfull=1#post588022

Now you are just continuing to do the same. J2-L283 might have played this or that role, but for sure its not more diverse then J2-M205. Not that it means something, but simply it is how it is.



Look, there’s no need to turn this into a needless argument. I didn’t put words into your mouth. You literally said 95 percent of Albanian J2b-L283 is all PH1751 and that your lineage is more diverse than L283 in Albanians. There’s a big difference between 95 percent and 48 percent.

As i already said it was mistake since i spoken out of the head, i looked at J2-L283 situation long ago while there was maybe 100 or 150 Albanian samples, i am sure that PH1751 had way higher percentage in the past.
Now recently many people tested and there is over 800 samples and situation changed.

I admitted mistake and what now, you dont have to repeat it as a parrot. Other guy pulled out L283 saying that it has higher percentage therefore M205 is "foreign" and "recent".
It was a try to teach him that percentage is not important as you can see that half of that L283 expanded in last 1200 years.
Also that J2-M205 does not reach high percentage anywhere in the world, common is 0-1 %, therefore if we go by that logic M205 is foreign and recent in entire world.

Also he pulled out just as you that J2-L283 is more diverse in Albania then J2-M205, which is false again. J2-M205 has higher TMRCA therefore higher diversity in Albania.

What he (and you) didnt understand is that neither diversity and neither percentage have priority when trying to find origin, but rather ancient DNA.
Ancient DNA has priority and we can conclude that J2-L283 was present since at least 1600 BCE in Dalmatia as ancient DNA shows us. While J2-M205 was not yet found, but it was found in Middle East.



L283 has 5-6 main clusters(dominated by PH1751) with plenty of other small sub-clusters. It is very diverse in Albanians.

Yes i know, i tested few of Albanians who turned out various branches of J2-L283. Also i analyzed their results just as i did yours and discussed them with you if you remember.
My uncle line (which i also tested), is PH1751.

Albanian TMRCA of L283 is 4400 years in multiple subclades discovered so far.

I know way more and before you about Albanian J2-L283 even tho you corrected me about one mistake lol.



now you’re claiming the TMRCA of your lineage some how makes your lineage more diverse and somehow more pivotal to the progenitors of Albanians?

I never said this, lol, you are putting words into my mouth again. Why are you angry and why are writing these stuff Dibran?
I understand that you realised and corrected me about PH1751 percentage, which i admitted and thanked you. But the rest of argument is like you trying to invent things i never said or claimed and then argue with me about them.



your line compared to L283 plays a lesser role and lesser diversity in Albanians.

J2-M205 has high diversity and important impact on entire Mediterranean Sea since at least 2000 BCE which is confirmed thru ancient DNA and diversity. And probably since 6000 BCE by TMRCA.
Albanians are Mediterranean population, therefore i dont see what is not clear there?



Your line may have entered very early. No question. This doesn’t make it the main lineage responsible for albanian ethnogenesis nor does its age have anything to do with our ethnogenesis.

I’m not forcing anything. I’m stating the plain facts. Doesn’t matter how old your line is or even if it was there before illyrians. It is not more diverse than J2b-L283 where it concerns Albanians and their ethnogenesis.

Who even mentioned albanian ethnogenesis or anything. Are you drunk?

J2-M205 is more diverse then J2-L283 among Albanians. Because Albanians within J2-M205 have TMRCA 8300 years, while Albanians within J2-L283 have TMRCA 4400 years.

But nevertheless, Albanian language was brought by probably Indo-Europeans where J2-L283 was part of them, while J2-M205 spread with Semitic speaking populations like Phoenicians for example as ancient DNA testifies therefore its clear that regarding language J2-L283 played important role. But, still, J2-M205 is more diverse among Albanians. I hope you do understand this. And no one except you ever tried to compare who played more role in which period. That is childish way of thinking.

Dibran
21-10-19, 18:48
You are turning this into a needless argument. There is no need to compare J2-M205 and J2-L283 in such a matter.
It was other guy if you read better who started to compare it and he got all the things wrong. In this post : https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34743-J2b1-M205-introduced-to-Eupedia/page14?p=588022&viewfull=1#post588022

Now you are just continuing to do the same. J2-L283 might have played this or that role, but for sure its not more diverse then J2-M205. Not that it means something, but simply it is how it is.




As i already said it was mistake since i spoken out of the head, i looked at J2-L283 situation long ago while there was maybe 100 or 150 Albanian samples, i am sure that PH1751 had way higher percentage in the past.
Now recently many people tested and there is over 800 samples and situation changed.

I admitted mistake and what now, you dont have to repeat it as a parrot. Other guy pulled out L283 saying that it has higher percentage therefore M205 is "foreign" and "recent".
It was a try to teach him that percentage is not important as you can see that half of that L283 expanded in last 1200 years.
Also that J2-M205 does not reach high percentage anywhere in the world, common is 0-1 %, therefore if we go by that logic M205 is foreign and recent in entire world.

Also he pulled out just as you that J2-L283 is more diverse in Albania then J2-M205, which is false again. J2-M205 has higher TMRCA therefore higher diversity in Albania.

What he (and you) didnt understand is that neither diversity and neither percentage have priority when trying to find origin, but rather ancient DNA.
Ancient DNA has priority and we can conclude that J2-L283 was present since at least 1600 BCE in Dalmatia as ancient DNA shows us. While J2-M205 was not yet found, but it was found in Middle East.



Yes i know, i tested few of Albanians who turned out various branches of J2-L283. Also i analyzed their results just as i did yours and discussed them with you if you remember.
My uncle line (which i also tested), is PH1751.

Albanian TMRCA of L283 is 4400 years in multiple subclades discovered so far.

I know way more and before you about Albanian J2-L283 even tho you corrected me about one mistake lol.



I never said this, lol, you are putting words into my mouth again. Why are you angry and why are writing these stuff Dibran?
I understand that you realised and corrected me about PH1751 percentage, which i admitted and thanked you. But the rest of argument is like you trying to invent things i never said or claimed and then argue with me about them.




J2-M205 has high diversity and important impact on entire Mediterranean Sea since at least 2000 BCE which is confirmed thru ancient DNA and diversity. And probably since 6000 BCE by TMRCA.
Albanians are Mediterranean population, therefore i dont see what is not clear there?



Who even mentioned albanian ethnogenesis or anything. Are you drunk?

J2-M205 is more diverse then J2-L283 among Albanians. Because Albanians within J2-M205 have TMRCA 8300 years, while Albanians within J2-L283 have TMRCA 4400 years.

But nevertheless, Albanian language was brought by probably Indo-Europeans where J2-L283 was part of them, while J2-M205 spread with Semitic speaking populations like Phoenicians for example as ancient DNA testifies therefore its clear that regarding language J2-L283 played important role. But, still, J2-M205 is more diverse among Albanians. I hope you do understand this. And no one except you ever tried to compare who played more role in which period. That is childish way of thinking.

You're jumping into different subjects detracting from my simple straight forward point that you claimed all L283 is 95 percent PH1751(where you claimed I put words in your mouth for correcting you) and that there are more diverse clades and branches of M205 in Albanians than L283. That is utter hogwash. Its age is older sure, but that doesn't qualify as diversity. Many distantly related brother clades of varying ages and branches is what constitutes diversity over all. L283 is more diverse in Albanians. M205 being older in Albanians does not mean it is more diverse. That isn't what the current data we have shows.

The age has nothing to do with it. Using your logic, if TMRCA is the sole determination for diversity, the haplogroups that have highest TMRCA's among Albanians are J1 and J2a.

You probably meant to say your line is more diverse in the Mediterranean than J-L283. That would be true. This is not however the same as the statement that M205 is more diverse within the Albanians than L283 is. Is this beginning to sink in?

I brought up Albanian ethnogenesis because YOU are claiming your lineage is more diverse in Albanians than L283. 8300 years ago there were no Albanians, so why even refer to the broad TMRCA of your branch being older in Albanians? What does it have to do with Albanians when the ancient ancestors of Albanian M205 likely spoke Phoenician?

M205 does not have more subclades, sub-clusters in Albanians than L283 at the moment. Show the proof. I only see 6 Albanians with 3 clusters, none of which are fleshed out yet beside your clade(since you did bigy). Unless you have some other database with numerous Albanians and clades of M205 that all differ?

Show the proof instead of creating strawman arguments and claiming I put words in your mouth when I literally called you out on your false statements on L283 not being diverse.

Point remains, L283 has a diversity of clades, and sub-clades in Albanians, regardless of the macro branch M205 being older. Where is this in M205? This is all I see in the project. 4 clusters against 6 if not more within L283.


J2b-M205 General TMRCA 8300(not bigY tested)

J2b-M205 Cluster A(not bigy tested)

J2b-Y22063(formed 1000ybp, TMRCA 800ybp)

Also, after the latest YTree update, there may actually be a glitch in J-M205 TMRCA since it went from 5700 to 8300 ybp. If you click "info" next to J-CTS1969 TMRCA, one of its main branches, you will see a couple of samples on the bottom have unusually high TMRCA, hence I think this glitch 'artificially' rises the whole M205 TMRCA: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

Same way in my case the Sardinian L1029 is glitching by supposedly sharing over 140 SNPs with other L1029 which is simply not true.

Also, in regards to your own cluster, J-Y22059, it's closest matches are in the Levant at ~4900 ybp. Since it's TMRCA is quite low, I think odds are it only arrived here sometime between 3000 to 1000 years ago, perhaps during the Roman - Byzantine period. Also, I think the other J-M205 lineages in the South Albanians likely arrived through different migrations, perhaps Phoenicians/Romans and such, and are definitely not older than the Bronze Age.

So even if for arguments sake your line is "older" in Albanians than L283, it is certainly not more diverse.

Btw, don't you dare try and insult me and call me drunk, and childish. You're making baseless assumptions and over analyzing my statements and twisting them to appear a victim. The evidence is stacked against you. L283 is more diverse in Albanians than M205. The end and goodbye.

Dema
21-10-19, 20:47
You're jumping into different subjects detracting from my simple straight forward point that you claimed all L283 is 95 percent PH1751(where you claimed I put words in your mouth for correcting you) and that there are more diverse clades and branches of M205 in Albanians than L283. That is utter hogwash. Its age is older sure, but that doesn't qualify as diversity.

Dibran you are repeating that like a parrot again.. You said this like 4 times now that i said that over 95 % of Albanian L283 is PH1751, and i explained you like 4 times why i said it.
Nevertheless, majority of Albanian L283 is PH1751. With TMRCA 1200 years. While all Albanian L283 subclades together form TMRCA of 4400 ybp.



Many distantly related brother clades of varying ages and branches is what constitutes diversity over all. L283 is more diverse in Albanians. M205 being older in Albanians does not mean it is more diverse. That isn't what the current data we have shows.

You cant look at clade that achieves up to 25 % in some population, and compare it with clade that achieves 0,5 % and say look the one with 25 % has more subclades identified among modern people so it means its more diverse.

J2-L283 is very diverse within Albanians, in multiple subclades, achieving TMRCA 4400 years. However, J2-M205 also has very high diversity, in multiple subclades, achieving TMRCA 8300 ybp.

So, even tho J2-L283 is very diverse. J2-M205 is very diverse within Mediterranean Sea, but also among Albanians so far in 4 subclades (TMRCA minimum 8300 ybp).



The age has nothing to do with it. I already told you your line was probably in the Balkans before Indo-Europeans arrived. Show me where I said your line was a recent arrival. You can't because I never once said that. Now YOU are putting words in my mouth. All I said is its not more diverse than L283 in Albanians.

Its more diverse lol. All Albanians under J2b-L283 have TMRCA 4400 ybp. While all Albanians under J2-M205 have TMRCA 8300 ybp.



You probably meant to say your line is more diverse in the Mediterranean than J-L283. That would be true. This is not however the same as the statement that M205 is more diverse within the Albanians than L283 is. Is this beginning to sink in?

J2-M205 shows extreme diversity and low percentage among Albanians, so far i know for 12 samples from North to South in 4 different subclades (TMRCA 8300 years).
In compare to neighbouring countries with 0 % of J2-M205 like Slovenia, 1 % of J2-M205 in four different sublcades is extreme.





Where is this in M205? This is all I see in the project.

J2b-M205 General TMRCA 8300(not bigY tested)

J2b-M205 Cluster A(not bigy tested)

J2b-Y22063(formed 1000ybp, TMRCA 800ybp)



Both "General" and "Cluster A" clades are tested M205+ PF7321+ and CTS1969- SNPs in YSEQ.
While Y22063 as seen is CTS1969+. Since CTS1969 is 8300 years old (at the moment according to Yfull), you can already see that TMRCA of these three Albanian subclades is 8300 years.

Cluster A did WGS in Dantelabs and it will soon appear in Yfull, while "General" cluster has different STR values and might be brother clade to CTS1969 and "Cluster A". It would be nice if this sample would also do bigY.

And there is fourth branch identified in public study among Tirana Albanians but we didn't manage to get any of these in project yet. It might be Dema family from Zall Baster near Tirana that tested J2-M205 in 23andme or perhaps some other family.

Dema
22-10-19, 03:15
Also, after the latest YTree update, there may actually be a glitch in J-M205 TMRCA since it went from 5700 to 8300 ybp. If you click "info" next to J-CTS1969 TMRCA, one of its main branches, you will see a couple of samples on the bottom have unusually high TMRCA, hence I think this glitch 'artificially' rises the whole M205 TMRCA: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

Yes i know, its Palestine Jenin and Saudi Makkah samples, while some samples are not calculated at all or are under analysis.
I already mentioned this few pages back. There is chance that this is a glitch due to new version but we will see soon.




Same way in my case the Sardinian L1029 is glitching by supposedly sharing over 140 SNPs with other L1029 which is simply not true.


Where do you see this Sardinian that shares over 140 SNPs with other L1029? I see Cagliari Sardinian but looks like his TMRCA is not yet calculated.

Do you mean sample with ID ERS256947 ? I see he is not yet calculated into TMRCA, where you got that he shares 140 SNPs with other L1029?

Dema
22-10-19, 15:10
Where is source of that branch and where is the proof (which mutation)?

In Croatia exist that branch (Balkan cluster) and based on that I make conclusion.

We don’t know it yet because we don’t know migration of Y22059 peoples in that area(Bulgaria, Serbia, Albania etc)

For now we have no evidence for that, if you have evidence show genetic data.

In Croatia, its mostly Serbs, from "Krajina" to Dalmatia. However there are also original Croats.
I seen recently on Serbian DNA forum that they are claiming for Croat samples that they are actually Serbs in origin.
Which is funny to me, they were neither Serbs neither Croats. They are all of Pred-Slavic Montenegrin origin, and we all know what that is.

Source of mutation Y22066/Y22059 is Y22075, as i already told you: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22075/



If Albanians have 4 branches then these mutations must also exist in the Croatian Serbs, where they are?
It is logical that this branch exist and migrate in that area( Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia or Croatia) if this branch only exist in that area.
However, once when we find out migration path of that branch then we will know more precisely.

No, its not like that. There are bottlenecks happening all the time, so if we identify one branch within one territory or nation, it does not mean it has to be in nearby population also.
We have plenty of examples like this. You need to explore many various branches to realise this.



In Bulgaria exist many branches of J2 haplotype so maybe source of this branch is there.

J2 is not that significant in Bulgaria. Also J2-M205 dont have any varieties in Bulgaria. Its only few samples and they all belong to J2-M205>Y22059 (Balkan cluster).
All of them but one sample have DYS385 15-19, so no percentage neither diversity even in this one sublcade.
In region of Southwest Serbia and Montenegro also in Croatian Krajina/Dalmatia there is way higher percentage and variations then in Bulgaria/Romania.

Source of Bulgarian M205 samples is Montenegro within the last 1000 years as TMRCA testifies.





No one has Albanian origin they have Vlachs origin, Albanians are not mentioned in Croatia at least not in large numbers. Whether these Vlachs were originally Albanian origin probable they are but not all, there are also migrations from Bulgaria, possibly other countries. Genetics will say that in the future.


Well they are slavicized and live in Croatia and Bosnia for 600 years now. Its natural they have high percentage of also classic Slavic haplogroups. However what differentiate them from Croats, Bosnjaks or Slovens is extremely high percentage of E-v13 and J2-M205. Their E-v13 in some subclades matches Albanians like subclade i linked earlier, while all of their J2-M205 is Y22066 which is of Pred-Slavic Montenegrin origin so also possibly Albanian origin.
Im saying that its Albanian because 12 century tribe that belong to it was none-Slavic tribe native to Montenegro. If we identified tribe in Greece i would claim Greek origin or if we identified in Italy i would clame Roman but since tribe is identified in Pred-Slavic Montenegro population which was considered native i dont see what it could be except Albanian lol.





Therefore you have no proof that branch Y22059 has its source in Albania.
The fact that this branch exists in Albania does not mean that it could not have come from Bulgaria to Albania. Vlachs probably came from area of Bulgaria as well, otherwise in southern Serbia Bulgarians are also mentioned, they probably brought and some genetics.

I have proof that Y22059 was present among 12 century none-Slavic Montenegrin tribe that everyone recorded as natives.
Furthermore Y22059 has TMRCA 1000 years. It means that its main expansion happened within 1000 years somewhere in Montenegro and surrounding areas since only 100 years after its MRCA lived we have records of tribe that belonged to this haplogroup.

Regarding Vlachs i already told you about Bosch et al 2006 (major Aromun study), no Vlach or Aromun bears J2-M205 except one Vlach in Albania whos closest relatives are Albanian in Albania, Italian in Sicily and Greek in Greece. No Vlach relatives or connection whatsoever.




Probably yes but for now branch Y22059 points more to the Bulgarian direction of migration.


What points to Bulgaria lol ? based on what? On 6 samples out of 800 in Bulgarian project, while this 6 samples all belong to one Montenegrin branch and they have no variations but very similar STRs.
They are all recent emigrants from Montenegro. Other then that J2-M205 is none-existent in Bulgaria neither has any connection to Turkic languages al Bulgar neither Slavic as modern Bulgarian.




They did not come to defend against Ottoman Empire, they come with Turks.

They actually arrived to defend against Ottomans, read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Serbian_Krajina#Background




Written records mention Vlachs, and originally they may be Albanians, Bulgarians etc, we will know this more accurately in the future, but for sure they are mostly original Albanians.

I dont know yet for matches among Vlachs even tho its possible it needs to be verified, but matches among Albanians can be found.




First prove by written documents that someone migrates from Montenegro to Bulgaria, when you do it then I will answer.

I dont need document, highest diversity of Y22059 is in area of Montenegro and wider, TMRCA of this sublcade is 1000 years.
Also its identified within 12 century Montenegrin tribe. Facts speak for itself. Bulgarian samples are South Serbia, Montenegrin or Kosovo emigrants.




I'm interested in younger mutations this is old connection (formed 5700 ybp, TMRCA 4900 ybp)

We are talking about migration in the Turkish era.

There is no younger mutation neither connection. Closest link is multiethnic from Middle East to Mediterranean Europe with difference 4900 years.

If Y22059 was recent migration we would find closer links or it would be downstream of Middle Eastern subclades but fact is that Y22059 is strait equal brother clade to subclades spread in Middle East and Mediterranean Sea in timeframe of 4900 ybp.




For now there is an older mutation in Serbia and Bosnia (TMRCA), so for now it would be reverse direction of migration. That's why i say we still have to wait.

It all belongs to 12 century Montenegrin tribe with TMRCA 1000 years. MRCA of Y22059 was none-Slavic Montenegrin.

ShpataEMadhe
06-11-19, 23:52
Only 6 out of 839 albanians (less than 1%) so far have j2b m205 and most of it is found in the south

"According to Serbian DNA project, haplogroup J2b1 - M205 is represented with 5,86% (July, 2014.), or 31/529 tested persons"

It is definitely NOT albanian in origin, no idea what this guy is talking about. It is likely from ottoman conquest

Dema
07-11-19, 20:15
You are very new to this, i am fully tested 111 STRs, Big-Y, Yfull upload, autosomal. While you are not yet tested at all and you are exploring this for 3 days and now you think you can go around Eupedia and teach people about their results.. I seen your level of typing you are not even serious but still i will reply to you. You must be some bored kid?



Only 6 out of 839 albanians (less than 1%) so far have j2b m205 and most of it is found in the south

That is only 6 that are in project. But i have record of about 14 of them all together including public studies, 23andme, etc..
When i tested i was for quite some time the only J2-M205 Albanian, but after checking public studies i found more of them and also later we got them in project.

I was practically attacked by Serbs that J2-M205 does not exist in Albanians neither in public studies. While in fact i found J2-M205 among Albanians in public studies and we got them in project now.

1 percent in multiple subclades among Albanians is decent percentage for this haplogroup. It peaks in Cyprus with 6 % and then Balkans, but also possibly Oman and Yemen. According to main J2 admin, its main expansion happened in Middle East, more specific Fertile Crescent in time of 4000 - 3000 BCE going by Yfull age estimation.





"According to Serbian DNA project, haplogroup J2b1 - M205 is represented with 5,86% (July, 2014.), or 31/529 tested persons"

It all belongs to one branch J2-M205>Y22059. Which is connected with Pre-Slavic 12 century Montenegrin tribe Kriçi - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kri%C4%8Di
Also its found in North Albania in Lohja tribe, and in Kosovo (myself). Serb samples are first slavicized and later serbicized. Also majority of Serb samples are from Croatia and Bosnia, from place where they are known to arrive there in 16 century from South Serbia and Montenegro. Thru history they never declared themselves Serbs but Vlachs, its obvious that they were some kind of slavicized locals. Probably Albanians or very similar to Albanians (100 % Southeast autosomally)

They dont only have high J2-M205, but also high (in compare to neighbours) E-v13 which in some subclades matches Albanians. But also in some degree J2-L283, R1b, J1, and so on..

In Montenegro there is 30 % of E-v13, way higher then in other South Slavic countries and up to 10x higher then in Slovenia. Therefore as we already knew this, we are dealing with Albanians here. J2-M205 among Serbs is result of slavicization of Montenegrin population, where vast majority of Albanian haplogroups were also slavicized and not only specific branch J2-M205>Y22059 that we are talking about here.



It is definitely NOT albanian in origin, no idea what this guy is talking about. It is likely from ottoman conquest


You are like robot with freshly installed program, you dont even understand what i was saying.

I was speaking about Kriçi tribe, not about haplogroup. I said that Kriçi tribe since it was Pre-Slavic Montenegrin tribe it could be Albanian language they spoken. J2-M205 Is Middle Eastern and Mediterranean, while J2-M205>Y22059 subbranch is native Montenegrin with possibly Phoenician origin or later Roman period migration. But everything so far points more towards early Phoenician period.


J2-M205 is way older then Ottoman period, even Y22059 branch is connected to two tribes that have records prior to Ottomans so your theory immediately goes down.
One tribe is early Pre-Slavic Montenegrin tribe, and another is Albanian Northern tribe.



Also autosomally, in FTDNA calculator, even tho Serbs usually have way higher East component (Ukraine - Russia), in 4 Serb Y22059 samples as i can see on BigY Block Tree, Southeast (Albania Greece Italy) component prevails.

So not that only their paternal line J-Y22059 is most likely Albanian in origin, also their autosomal genetics is in most part made of Albanian autosomal components.

Furthermore i recently seen on Poreklo, they posted autosomal test of J2-M205>Y22059 Bulgar. Guy scores incredible 100 % Southeast Europe. Which even tho i seen many tests from many Balkan populations, 100 % Southeast can be usually seen only among Albanians.

So J2-M205>Y22059 branch is probably Phoenician expansion thru Greeks and Illyrians into Albanians and later thru slavicization into Montenegrins and then Serbs.

ShpataEMadhe
08-11-19, 11:40
You are very new to this, i am fully tested 111 STRs, Big-Y, Yfull upload, autosomal. While you are not yet tested at all and you are exploring this for 3 days and now you think you can go around Eupedia and teach people about their results.. I seen your level of typing you are not even serious but still i will reply to you. You must be some bored kid?
That is only 6 that are in project. But i have record of about 14 of them all together including public studies, 23andme, etc..
When i tested i was for quite some time the only J2-M205 Albanian, but after checking public studies i found more of them and also later we got them in project.
I was practically attacked by Serbs that J2-M205 does not exist in Albanians neither in public studies. While in fact i found J2-M205 among Albanians in public studies and we got them in project now.
1 percent in multiple subclades among Albanians is decent percentage for this haplogroup. It peaks in Cyprus with 6 % and then Balkans, but also possibly Oman and Yemen. According to main J2 admin, its main expansion happened in Middle East, more specific Fertile Crescent in time of 4000 - 3000 BCE going by Yfull age estimation.
It all belongs to one branch J2-M205>Y22059. Which is connected with Pre-Slavic 12 century Montenegrin tribe Kriçi - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kri%C4%8Di
Also its found in North Albania in Lohja tribe, and in Kosovo (myself). Serb samples are first slavicized and later serbicized. Also majority of Serb samples are from Croatia and Bosnia, from place where they are known to arrive there in 16 century from South Serbia and Montenegro. Thru history they never declared themselves Serbs but Vlachs, its obvious that they were some kind of slavicized locals. Probably Albanians or very similar to Albanians (100 % Southeast autosomally)
They dont only have high J2-M205, but also high (in compare to neighbours) E-v13 which in some subclades matches Albanians. But also in some degree J2-L283, R1b, J1, and so on..
In Montenegro there is 30 % of E-v13, way higher then in other South Slavic countries and up to 10x higher then in Slovenia. Therefore as we already knew this, we are dealing with Albanians here. J2-M205 among Serbs is result of slavicization of Montenegrin population, where vast majority of Albanian haplogroups were also slavicized and not only specific branch J2-M205>Y22059 that we are talking about here.
You are like robot with freshly installed program, you dont even understand what i was saying.
I was speaking about Kriçi tribe, not about haplogroup. I said that Kriçi tribe since it was Pre-Slavic Montenegrin tribe it could be Albanian language they spoken. J2-M205 Is Middle Eastern and Mediterranean, while J2-M205>Y22059 subbranch is native Montenegrin with possibly Phoenician origin or later Roman period migration. But everything so far points more towards early Phoenician period.
J2-M205 is way older then Ottoman period, even Y22059 branch is connected to two tribes that have records prior to Ottomans so your theory immediately goes down.
One tribe is early Pre-Slavic Montenegrin tribe, and another is Albanian Northern tribe.
Also autosomally, in FTDNA calculator, even tho Serbs usually have way higher East component (Ukraine - Russia), in 4 Serb Y22059 samples as i can see on BigY Block Tree, Southeast (Albania Greece Italy) component prevails.
So not that only their paternal line J-Y22059 is most likely Albanian in origin, also their autosomal genetics is in most part made of Albanian autosomal components.
Furthermore i recently seen on Poreklo, they posted autosomal test of J2-M205>Y22059 Bulgar. Guy scores incredible 100 % Southeast Europe. Which even tho i seen many tests from many Balkan populations, 100 % Southeast can be usually seen only among Albanians.
So J2-M205>Y22059 branch is probably Phoenician expansion thru Greeks and Illyrians into Albanians and later thru slavicization into Montenegrins and then Serbs.

Me not being tested has nothing to do with this. You keep dancing around the facts, it is found almost 6% in Serbs and less than 1% in albanians, it is NOT albanian in origin and has nothing to do with albanians. It is almost non existant in North albanians too and yet these are the ones who have the most j2b l283. So it is not ilyrian at all like you claim, it doesn't have a big enough base to be, it looks recent especially amongst the less than 1% albanians

Haplogroup is more important than autosomal, far more accurate far more specific, we are talking about your fathers tribe here. All of these krici and whatever you mention is all well and good but you can't know what happened to these people during ottoman era, we don't have enough written history, what we have is accurate dna tests. Even if you insist it isn't from ottoman even though most evidence says otherwise it still doesn't make it albanian. The percentage is just too low

Kelmendasi
08-11-19, 12:44
Interesting J-M205 find from the paper on Ancient Rome:
- R50, Centocelle, 135-244CE (Imperial Rome) belongs to J2b-M205>Y134194 https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18871-Ancient-Rome-A-genetic-crossroads-of-Europe-and-the-Mediterranean/page12

Dema
08-11-19, 14:13
Me not being tested has nothing to do with this. You keep dancing around the facts, it is found almost 6% in Serbs and less than 1% in albanians, it is NOT albanian in origin and has nothing to do with albanians. It is almost non existant in North albanians too and yet these are the ones who have the most j2b l283. So it is not ilyrian at all like you claim, it doesn't have a big enough base to be, it looks recent especially amongst the less than 1% albanians

Haplogroup is more important than autosomal, far more accurate far more specific, we are talking about your fathers tribe here. All of these krici and whatever you mention is all well and good but you can't know what happened to these people during ottoman era, we don't have enough written history, what we have is accurate dna tests. Even if you insist it isn't from ottoman even though most evidence says otherwise it still doesn't make it albanian. The percentage is just too low

You are like talking to bot. I already explained to you that Serb J2-M205 is all Y22059 its more northern branch of J2-M205 with Pre-Slavic Montenegrin origin. It has higher percentage because it had tribal expansion in area of Montenegro but later got slavicized just as 30 % of that E-v13 but also J2-L283, R1b, J1 and so on. It is actually 2-3 percent in Serbs and 4.8 percent by their project at the moment, you pulled out outdated data when they overtested Croatian and Bosnian Serbs that declared Vlach in the past. While in fact judging by haplogroups they were either Albanian or either Slavic.


J2-M205>Y22059 is identified in 2 tribes so far, Kriçi (North Montenegro) and Lohja (North Albania). While Kriçi could very easily spoken Albanian language therefore be of Albanian origin, Lohja is for sure of Albanian origin. MRCA of Y22059 was for sure not Slavic, but due to very distant relatives more recent history is unknown therefore Illyrian and ancient Greek hypothesis thru Phoenician expansion makes sense.

Percentage is not important at all, since you see all Montenegrin therefore Serb J2-M205 is from one tribal population that expanded in last 1000 years according to Yfull TMRCA. While Albanians have multiple subclades similar to Greeks and Italians testifying they had longer contact with J2-M205 since its present in multiple subclades that separated long time ago one from another. While Serbs have only none-Slavic, therefore very likely Albanian J2-M205>Y22059 subclade that is result of recent slavicisation of Montenegro and none-Slavic populations as Albanians.

Otherwise J2-M205>Y22059 subclade is most likely Phoenician expansion into Greek and Illyrian territories. So even it probably become Hellenic or Illyrian, it is for sure Middle Eastern in origin and expanded since Bronze Age or later.



Interesting J-M205 find from the paper on Ancient Rome:
- R50, Centocelle, 135-244CE (Imperial Rome) belongs to J2b-M205>Y134194 https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18871-Ancient-Rome-A-genetic-crossroads-of-Europe-and-the-Mediterranean/page12



Very good find, i was looking at this research earlier and seen J2-M12* samples that could have been M205 or Z1825/L283. Branch Y134194 if found in modern day Lebanon and Egypt TMRCA 3300 ybp - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y134194/


This is very good find for entire J2-M205. It would be better if it was some older sample. We already have sample with similar age found in Roman England gladiator.

So according to ancient bones so far we have J2-M205 confirmed in Canaanites/Phoenicians and Romans of Middle Eastern origin. Also in EBA I/II Jordan.

Yaan
08-11-19, 14:13
Me,my Mom, my Dad and my maternal Grandpa are all 100% Balkan on FF, it means nothing. I am one of the samples taken as basic for Balkan, so if you score 100% something it only means you are one of the core samples :) We have nothing to do with Albanians, except we have genes from Native Balkan people and Slavs like they do :) Ofc in different proportions :) Please guys you seem to understand Genetics either educate him or make him stop write BS :)

PS. A lot of Bulgarians are 100% or more then 90% Balkan on FF, it does not make it Bulgarian component, just like 100% sure it does not make it Albanian or Serb.

As for J2b1 it is the most common in Europe in Serbs, it does not make you Serb ofc, just like being E-V13 does not make you Albanian, not even a bit,it is the subclade which really matters. Haplogrouops belong to nobody and being from a nation is a mental and historical thing and has nothing to do with haplogrouops :)

Dema
08-11-19, 14:19
Me,my Mom, my Dad and my maternal Grandpa are all 100% Balkan on FF, it means nothing. I am one of the samples taken as basic for Balkan, so if you score 100% something it only means you are one of the core samples :) We have nothing to do with Albanians, except we have genes from Native Balkan people and Slavs like they do :) Ofc in different proportions :) Please guys you seem to understand Genetics either educate him or make him stop write BS :)



There is no Balkan category in FTDNA family finder.. Btw we just commented autosomal tests, not a big deal. Its clear that according to FTDNA calculator Southeast Europe is Albanian Greek and Italian cluster while East Europe is Slavic (Russia Ukraine) cluster.

FTDNA after version 2.0 does very good job in separating these clusters.



Show your FTDNA family finder result

Dema
08-11-19, 14:31
I googled for Bulgarian autosomal results, i found one example of FTDNA FF here:

Guy says: "I am from Bulgaria pretty much and all my recent ancestors are from here. Maternal grandmother from southwest Bulgaria, distant ancestors originally from Kilkis, Greece."
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?285419-Bulgarian-Autosomal-(very-differing)-Results


Does this looks like 100 % Southeast Europe to you ?


https://i.imgur.com/0oIMBVv.png

Yaan
08-11-19, 14:31
100 % South East Europe as I said for me, my Mom, my Dad and my maternal Grandpa and for a lot of other Bulgarians, but this is not the point, but how to stop the tro...l

The Southeast Europe cluster consists of present day populations from the areas of Italy, Greece, and the western Balkan states from Bulgaria to Croatia. Present day populations in the Southeast Europe cluster show some of the highest rates of genetic relatedness to the second wave of migration into Europe roughly 11,000 years ago. This wave of migration consisted of Neolithic farmers from the Fertile Crescent and expanded primarily into southern Europe, incorporating small scattered European hunter-gatherer communities along their path.

Yaan
08-11-19, 14:33
So what I already explained to you,who gets 100% something. Think how to stop the disgrace of Albania here my friend :)

Yaan
08-11-19, 14:40
The results,which you posted are from a guy who complained how made up his results are compared to other companies, as for Slavic component, this is non sense, Russians are heavily mixed with Finnic people, Poles and Czechs with Germanics and Celts Bulgarians and Serbs with Med people etc.etc :)

But lets not make offtopic. On the topic J2b1 is highest in Europe in Serbs, it is not Albanian or Serb component, there is not a single component in the world which is owned by a modern ethnicity. So you have a Big Y? Do you plan to make also for another J2b1 Albanians ?

Dema
08-11-19, 14:54
I am still not convinced that 100 % Southeast Europe is that common among Bulgarians. And if it is, it means that they are 100 % autosomally made of Thracian/Greek/Illyrian components rather then of Slavic as their modern language suggests. Or older Bulgar language of Tukic origin.


I have show you random FTDNA FF of Bulgarian example. He has higher East component which represents Slavic influence into modern Bulgars then Southeast which would be Thracian/Illyrian.

Other South Slavs also get similar to that result. You have not convinced me that you and your family, and many Bulgarians score 100 % Southeast Europe on FTDNA autosomal calculator.





The results,which you posted are from a guy who complained how made up his results are compared to other companies, as for Slavic component, this is non sense, Russians are heavily mixed with Finnic people, Poles and Czechs with Germanics and Celts Bulgarians and Serbs with Med people etc.etc :)

But lets not make offtopic. On the topic J2b1 is highest in Europe in Serbs, it is not Albanian or Serb component, there is not a single component in the world which is owned by a modern ethnicity. So you have a Big Y? Do you plan to make also for another J2b1 Albanians ?


Ukrainians, Poles, Russians get very high percentage of East Europe, above 80 %. In this thread you have Ukraine/Polish guy that posted his FTDNA autosomal he scores over 90 % of East Europe. Also i seen Polish guy scoring 100 % East Europe.


Only South Slavs get this ridiculous amount of Southeast Europe, but still its usually lower then East Europe. While Serbs and Montenegrins have higher Southeast component in compare to Croats, Bosnjaks or Slovens because of Albanian/Illyrian influence while Bulgarians have because of Thracian/Illyrian/Greek influence.


100 % Southeast Europe in FTDNA is very very rare so i simply dont believe that there is many Bulgarians and half of your family that score 100 % Southeast Europe.

Dema
13-11-19, 16:16
There is two J2-M205 samples identified so far in "Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean":

Sample R50, 135-244 CE.
Belongs to branch J-M205>Y134194 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y134194/ (TMRCA 3300 ybp, modern Lebanon and Egypt samples in Yfull)

Centocelle Necropolis, Rome (Suburbium)

The area of the ancient Centumcellae, in a south-eastern suburb of Rome, next to the Via Labicana (withinmodern day Centocelle, Rome), extends for more than 30 hectares and preserves a rich archaeologicalrecord ranging from the 6th century BCE to the 6th century CE. Among the many monuments and sites sofar investigated, the necropolis of Centocelle is associated with a Roman imperial Villa (Ad Duas Lauros)and is dated to the IV-V century CE.The necropolis consists of 61 inhumations and the individuals possibly pertained to the inhabitants of theVilla. The preliminary bioarchaeological survey is published in (124–127). Dietary analysis of theinhumated through compound specific isotope analyses (CSIA) performed on single amino acids iscurrently in progress. The human osteological material is currently stored at the Museo delle Civiltà inRome.



Sample R1283, 771-974 CE.
Belongs to J-M205>PF7321* (no specific branch) https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF7321/

Cancelleria - The Basilica of San Lorenzo in Damaso

The Basilica of San Lorenzo was erected by Pope Damaso (366-384 CE) in south-western CampoMarzio, reusing part of an architectural complex in which it is possible to recognize the buildings of thefactio prasina, one of the four factions of the circus (109–111). The Basilica, with three naves, occupied alarge area largely coinciding with that of the courtyard of the Palazzo della Cancelleria, in one of the mostcentral areas of Rome, halfway between Piazza Farnese and Piazza Navona.Probably as early as the sixth century CE there are numerous burials (subsequently reworked severaltimes) that are carried out in the area of the church, in particular in a vast environment located close to thesouth side of the building (112).A radical transformation of the Basilica is recorded in the second quarter of the 11th century CEfollowing a fire, of which extensive traces have been found. In addition to conspicuous transformations ofa structural nature, the floor of all the sections of the Basilica was raised by about 1 m. In the church,starting from this date until its destruction, numerous burials were built including several masonryossuaries. New changes to the structure of the church were made during the second half of the fifteenthcentury. The numismatic artifacts found have allowed us to date, at the beginning of the last quarter of thefifteenth century, a large mass grave in which hundreds of burials were deposited (SU17, SU30 andSU471). In the way of organizing the burials it is likely to recognize the effects of a plague epidemicwhich we know to have struck the city between 1476 and 1479 CE, a hypothesis that would also beconfirmed by the study of skeletal remains. In 1489 CE the building of the Palazzo della Cancelleriabegins and the church is totally destroyed. The population of this necropolis covers most of the MiddleAges and is representative of the population of Rome of this period.

Mich Glitch
13-11-19, 16:40
I hope they put R1283 ​to YFull. Maybe with this cousin my sample will form new subclade.

Dema
13-11-19, 20:14
Sample R50, 135-244 CE.
Belongs to branch J-M205>Y134194 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y134194/ (TMRCA 3300 ybp, modern Lebanon and Egypt samples in Yfull)


Here is some interesting Gedmatch results for this sample:

Calculating Population Admixture - dv3 [K=12]

2.14% East_European
16.23% West_European
41.01% Mediterranean
0.00% Neo_African
28.51% West_Asian
0.00% South_Asian
0.14% Northeast_Asian
0.00% Southeast_Asian
0.07% East_African
11.84% Southwest_Asian
0.02% Northwest_African
0.04% Palaeo_African


Calculating Population Admixture - eurogenes [K=36]

0.00% Amerindian
1.95% Arabian
6.23% Armenian
0.00% Basque
0.00% Central_African
0.00% Central_Euro
0.00% East_African
0.00% East_Asian
4.87% East_Balkan
0.00% East_Central_Asian
0.13% East_Central_Euro
23.81% East_Med
0.00% Eastern_Euro
0.00% Fennoscandian
4.23% French
10.09% Iberian
0.00% Indo-Chinese
26.91% Italian
0.00% Malayan
9.25% Near_Eastern
0.00% North_African
0.22% North_Atlantic
0.00% North_Caucasian
0.00% North_Sea
0.00% Northeast_African
0.00% Oceanian
0.00% Omotic
0.00% Pygmy
0.00% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% South_Central_Asian
0.00% South_Chinese
0.00% Volga-Ural
0.00% West_African
4.64% West_Caucasian
7.67% West_Med


Calculating Population Admixture - globe13 [K=13]


0.01% Siberian
0.00% Amerindian
0.00% West_African
0.05% Palaeo_African
18.91% Southwest_Asian
0.00% East_Asian
38.66% Mediterranean
0.16% Australasian
0.00% Arctic
26.98% West_Asian
15.23% North_European
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% East_African

ShpataEMadhe
15-11-19, 13:15
You are like talking to bot. I already explained to you that Serb J2-M205 is all Y22059 its more northern branch of J2-M205 with Pre-Slavic Montenegrin origin. It has higher percentage because it had tribal expansion in area of Montenegro but later got slavicized just as 30 % of that E-v13 but also J2-L283, R1b, J1 and so on. It is actually 2-3 percent in Serbs and 4.8 percent by their project at the moment, you pulled out outdated data when they overtested Croatian and Bosnian Serbs that declared Vlach in the past. While in fact judging by haplogroups they were either Albanian or either Slavic.
J2-M205>Y22059 is identified in 2 tribes so far, Kriçi (North Montenegro) and Lohja (North Albania). While Kriçi could very easily spoken Albanian language therefore be of Albanian origin, Lohja is for sure of Albanian origin. MRCA of Y22059 was for sure not Slavic, but due to very distant relatives more recent history is unknown therefore Illyrian and ancient Greek hypothesis thru Phoenician expansion makes sense.
Percentage is not important at all, since you see all Montenegrin therefore Serb J2-M205 is from one tribal population that expanded in last 1000 years according to Yfull TMRCA. While Albanians have multiple subclades similar to Greeks and Italians testifying they had longer contact with J2-M205 since its present in multiple subclades that separated long time ago one from another. While Serbs have only none-Slavic, therefore very likely Albanian J2-M205>Y22059 subclade that is result of recent slavicisation of Montenegro and none-Slavic populations as Albanians.
Otherwise J2-M205>Y22059 subclade is most likely Phoenician expansion into Greek and Illyrian territories. So even it probably become Hellenic or Illyrian, it is for sure Middle Eastern in origin and expanded since Bronze Age or later.
Very good find, i was looking at this research earlier and seen J2-M12* samples that could have been M205 or Z1825/L283. Branch Y134194 if found in modern day Lebanon and Egypt TMRCA 3300 ybp - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y134194/
This is very good find for entire J2-M205. It would be better if it was some older sample. We already have sample with similar age found in Roman England gladiator.
So according to ancient bones so far we have J2-M205 confirmed in Canaanites/Phoenicians and Romans of Middle Eastern origin. Also in EBA I/II Jordan.

Whatever dude, j2b m205 has nothing to do with albanians, it is found much more in serbia and Middle East, less than 1% in Albanians meanwhile j2b l283 is almost 20%. Where it came from is the question and the answer will never be from albania. Romans is also unlikely because Serbs having it more than albanians wouldnt make sense, maybe it came from Jewish Romans as we know they took them as slaves initially but it could also be from early osman arabs

And yes percentage is absolutely the most important thing when determining the genetics of a population

11583

Dema
15-11-19, 17:39
Got to love these jelly trølls invading thread all the time with various theories but always trying to represent M205 as recent arrival or Vlach, Bulgar, Jewish slave, Serbian, Turkish, Ottoman....

Listen here you ShpataEmadhe little trøll boy,


Will you please answer to me why are you now typing in Latin alphabet?? That has roots in ancient Greek alphabet, which has roots in Phoenician (Semitic) alphabet ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_alphabet#Origins
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet#Origins


Do i have to remind you that J-M205 was found in ancient Sidon 1600 BCE, specifically where this alphabet originates?

https://i.imgur.com/A7AkvTe.jpg



+ add two new J-M205 samples from recent ancient Roman study.

Dema
15-11-19, 22:26
And btw no one ever said that J2-M205 has origin in Albanians. You have like intelligence problems.
It was said for one specific sublcade and not for its formed date but for its TMRCA. So J2-M205>Y22059, since Y22059 was identified in two tribes Kriçi (early pre-Slavic Montenegrin tribe), and Lohja (obvious North Albanian tribe).

J2-M205>Y22059 formed date 4900 ybp, TMRCA 1000 ybp.

So what i said is that MRCA (most recent common ancestor) of Y22059 most likely spoken Albanian language. More further origin then 1000 years is without doubt Roman or earlier Illyrian or Greek thru Bronze Age Middle East migration.



Also i dont know why this kind of stupidity is tolerated by Eupedia:


Whatever dude, j2b m205 has nothing to do with albanians, it is found much more in serbia and Middle East, less than 1% in Albanians meanwhile j2b l283 is almost 20%. Where it came from is the question and the answer will never be from albania. Romans is also unlikely because Serbs having it more than albanians wouldnt make sense, maybe it came from Jewish Romans as we know they took them as slaves initially but it could also be from early osman arabs

He says Romans is unlikely even tho J2-M205 now has multiple Roman samples. But then he concludes that its possible that is some "Jewish Roman slave" since it sounds bad enough so it satisfies him. Also J2-M205 almost does not exist among Jews, so far its identified in one branch. Its more likely of Canaanite origin.

Also he insists in Ottoman Arabs even tho J2-M205 has diversified all over Mediterranean Sea long before Ottoman or Common Era time. It peaks among Cypriot Greeks and its found in high diversity and many varieties along Mediterranean where most of subclades separated in time-frame of 4000-6000 years one from another. J2-M205 is very rare in Turkey and also its in so far only one identified branch. This guy has no bases for his claims.

Here (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/38771-a-sample-of-600-shows-that-71-of-Saudi-Arabians-carry-J1-M267-(J-P58-mutation)/page2?p=587033&viewfull=1#post587033) he says that Cypriot J2-M205 is also from Ottoman conquest.

Also j2b m205 definitely seems from osman conquest, it seems to have broken into cyprus

In Cyprus regarding J-M205, researchers say: "J2b-M205 may contribute also to the pre-Greek strata."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4750176/

Do you know what pre-Greek strata is ?

In other thread (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/38771-a-sample-of-600-shows-that-71-of-Saudi-Arabians-carry-J1-M267-(J-P58-mutation)/page2?p=588105&viewfull=1#post588105) he talks about drugs and needles and is obvious joker. Reported!

ShpataEMadhe
20-11-19, 23:46
Got to love these jelly trølls invading thread all the time with various theories but always trying to represent M205 as recent arrival or Vlach, Bulgar, Jewish slave, Serbian, Turkish, Ottoman....

Listen here you ShpataEmadhe little trøll boy,


Will you please answer to me why are you now typing in Latin alphabet?? That has roots in ancient Greek alphabet, which has roots in Phoenician (Semitic) alphabet ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_alphabet#Origins
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet#Origins


Do i have to remind you that J-M205 was found in ancient Sidon 1600 BCE, specifically where this alphabet originates?

https://i.imgur.com/A7AkvTe.jpg



+ add two new J-M205 samples from recent ancient Roman study.

Ok, so you finally admit it isn't Albanian it just became so like the i2s, question is was this male accepted into the community or did he rape a lady and she kept the boy?

I understand you showing me these points on the map and their reputed years but this doesn't tell where this haplogroup was during AD, did a tribe form later on somewhere? Tell me WHERE this specific haplogroup is found MOST, this is the most important thing here

Either way, it looks like it's either early Jewish with your map or arab but I'd still like to know where it is found most TODAY

Dema
21-11-19, 01:05
These are not "points on the map", its places and dates where J2-M205 ancient DNA was found. As i already told you ancient DNA is most important when looking at haplogroup origin.
J2-M205 would be best if designated as Middle Eastern and Mediterranean. Also J2-M205 is definitely Albanian since we find it from north to south in multiple branches.
Albanians are Mediterranean population and if we would not find J2-M205 among Albanians it would be very strange. J2-M205 was probably among first haplogroups that sailed Mediterranean Sea where Albanian shores are also part of that Mediteranean Sea. Therefore when Albanian ethnos formed, J2-M205 was already present with high technology within Mediterranean Sea and in one way or another it shaped Albanian nation just as it did all other nations of Middle East and Mediterranean Sea.


There is no point in debating with you because as seen your understanding capabilities are very low. Also you are trølling entire time with stupid jokes and broken English. In real life you are probably some pathetic kid.

To be honest with mentioning drugs and rape in forums like this you are just embarrassing your family and where you come from, and if you are Albanian at all which i doubt since you posted that Poreklo map that was uploaded only 2 hours before you posted it here, i would ask you to stop it and disable your account and stop embarrassing yourself further. Not even being tested, and hiding behind random name on forum then again displaying stupidity all over does not really impress me too much. You got a lot to work on yourself. With your mentality you are like half-human at the moment.

Btw reported again because of mentioning raping of woman in trølling fashion and other beautiful things that you are culturally enriched with.

Dema
21-11-19, 18:09
Anyways, regarding Albanians, our southern branch has done bigY and uploaded to Yfull recently. Even tho we first thought that its CTS1969 negative according to YSEQ SNP test, after doing FTDNA BigY it turned out CTS1969 positive.
Which is btw what we were expecting since beginning.

So far two Albanian J-M205 branches that are deeply tested belong to subclades:


North J2b-M205>PF7321>CTS1969>YP51>Y22075>Y22059*

South J2b-M205>PF7321>CTS1969*


There is also another southern branch in Albanian project labeled "General", which would be helpful if it would do BigY, and there is potentially fourth branch in Central Albania as i mentioned earlier from public studies but we still dont have them in project.


Also regarding J-M205 in general i see there is many interesting changes in Yfull but many of them are under analysis or they haven't been yet calculated therefore i will wait for new Yfull version to update so we can see what we can make out of these new samples.

So far most interesting are samples under CTS1969 with ID YF17356 and YF13211 which according to Yfull analysis have over 100 novel SNPs and therefore upping entire J2-M205 TMRCA from 5800 to 8300 ybp.
I am not sure is this current glitch in Yfull or realistic situation. I cant see such novel SNPs in FTDNA therefore these samples are either tested in Dante Labs or some other company or this is indeed a glitch.

Lets wait new version of Yfull then it will be more clear.

ShpataEMadhe
22-11-19, 22:19
These are not "points on the map", its places and dates where J2-M205 ancient DNA was found. As i already told you ancient DNA is most important when looking at haplogroup origin.
J2-M205 would be best if designated as Middle Eastern and Mediterranean. Also J2-M205 is definitely Albanian since we find it from north to south in multiple branches.
Albanians are Mediterranean population and if we would not find J2-M205 among Albanians it would be very strange. J2-M205 was probably among first haplogroups that sailed Mediterranean Sea where Albanian shores are also part of that Mediteranean Sea. Therefore when Albanian ethnos formed, J2-M205 was already present with high technology within Mediterranean Sea and in one way or another it shaped Albanian nation just as it did all other nations of Middle East and Mediterranean Sea.
There is no point in debating with you because as seen your understanding capabilities are very low. Also you are trølling entire time with stupid jokes and broken English. In real life you are probably some pathetic kid.
To be honest with mentioning drugs and rape in forums like this you are just embarrassing your family and where you come from, and if you are Albanian at all which i doubt since you posted that Poreklo map that was uploaded only 2 hours before you posted it here, i would ask you to stop it and disable your account and stop embarrassing yourself further. Not even being tested, and hiding behind random name on forum then again displaying stupidity all over does not really impress me too much. You got a lot to work on yourself. With your mentality you are like half-human at the moment.
Btw reported again because of mentioning raping of woman in trølling fashion and other beautiful things that you are culturally enriched with.

No one cares about your feelings, we are here to discuss j2b m205 and the proof is it has nothing to do with albanians. One being found there whatever years ago doesn't mean anything, the subclade is non existant amongst albanians, 5% more in Serbs and even more in middle east

Get over it and face the facts. Percentages are the only thing that matters, j2b m205 is a tiny outlier in Albania and therefore it is foreign, go look elsewhere for the origin, don't talk nonsense about my people. Also reported for avoiding swear filters, hypocrite

Kelmendasi
22-11-19, 22:39
Get over it and face the facts. Percentages are the only thing that matters, j2b m205 is a tiny outlier in Albania and therefore it is foreign, go look elsewhere for the origin, don't talk nonsense about my people. Also reported for avoiding swear filters, hypocrite
I really don't understand why you go around making statements when you know nothing about Y-DNA haplogroups, or genetics in general for that matter. Percentages mean nothing, provide evidence/explanations or stop yammering on.

What do you mean "my people"? He's an Albanian and that's that. Also, isn't your surname of Italian origin? Stop being insecure and test.

Dema
23-11-19, 01:40
It would be best to ignore this "person". He is most likely a Serb and not Albanian, all maps and links he posted are from Serbian forum and web Poreklo.


Its strange how Eupedia moderators are allowing this kind of behavior even tho i reported him multiple times.

Dema
23-11-19, 03:19
Regarding J2b-M205>CTS1969>YP51>Y22075>Y22059* formed 4900 ybp, TMRCA 1000 ybp.

So by new discoveries my opinion has changed, most recent common ancestor of Y22059 was most likely Albanian speaking person. Therefore origin of all Y22059 might be very likely Albanian.

Of course more distant origin is without doubt Middle Eastern but that might be 2000 or 3000 years ago which i am not debating about at this moment.
What i am debating is MRCA or most recent common ancestor of all Y22059 that lived 1000 years ago which seems to be more northern J2-M205 branch since majority of varieties and closest relatives of Y22059 are more south towards East Mediterranean.

My major proves for this claims are two tribes that belong to this haplogroup that out of all samples have earliest historical documents about their existence therefore at the moment out of all Y22059 samples most distant history can be traced with these two tribes. Btw since these are both old tribes dating to 13 and 14 century, its clear that these tribes have developed only about 300 years after MRCA of all Y22059 lived, therefore geographically it must have been very close, so around area of pre-Slavic Montenegro.

-According to three different tested families which surname is connected to word Kriçi, and they all turned out Y22059* therefore old north Montenegrin Kriçi tribe is supposed to be Y22059+.
Kriçi were 12-14 century pre-Slavic native Montenegrin tribe of unknown language but recorded as natives. If they spoken Latin that would be known since Latin was known language. Since they were pre-Slavic they most likely spoken Albanian language.

-According to Albanian Bloodlines Project that recently tested a lot of tribes that were not previously tested, north Albanian Lohja tribe turned out to be Y22059*.
Lohja is North Albanian tribe from district of Malesia e Madhe in northern Albania. Lohja is clearly Albanian tribe and its earliest records go to year 1354.

Why is there so much, or to be more precise about 3 % of Y22059 among modern Serbs but pretty rare among Albanians and pretty much all other nations is question that i will answer next.

-Answer is the same as why is there so much of E-v13 (primary Albanian haplogroup) among Serbs and Montenegrins, around 20 - 30 %. But also in addition haplogroup J2b2, J2a, J1, and R1b. Which in many subclades match Albanians. While in contrast to Serbs, Slovenians have only 3 % of E-v13.

-Also answer is the same as why is there J2b-L283>PH1602 Serbs and no PH1602 Albanians at all? PH1602 Serbs are closer to both Illyrian and Etruscan ancient samples then majority of Albanians that are under J2b-Z638 so their paralel brother clade. Because J2b-L283>PH1602 seems to be more northern branch of J2-L283 and therefore completely slavicised and today we can find it in Serbs but not in Albanians.

-Also answer is the same as why is there no E-v13>PH1246* Albanians while this subclade seems to be second most represented subclade in Serbs and Montenegrins?
Because as known this subclade is also identified in Montenegrin tribe which has same history and interacted with many Albanian tribes at the time. But after Slavicisation E-v13>PH1246 is today mostly find in Serbs.
But Albanians have managed recently to get first PH1246 sample and it comes from noble Dushmani family. There is no doubt that entire PH1246 Serbs and Vasojevici were Albanian speakers if we would go 1000 years backwards.

-There are also R1b>Z2705* Serbs that belong to subclades yet never found among Albanians, but when looking at such a young haplogroup and Albanian distribution its easy to conclude that they were Albanians before.

Well, specific subclade J2-M205>Y22059* as existing in more northern population then usual (Montenegro) went thru slavicisation of their territories where they lived and therefore today they declare either Serbs or Montenegrins in most cases. But as seen in samples that i mentioned in this post we can find this phenomenon inside of all other haplogroups and not only J2-M205.

Montenegrins and South Serbs share considerable amount of Albanian genetics (both autosomally but also regarding Y chromosome) which was contributed mostly in period of 1000 years ago to period of 50-100 years ago.

Since Y22059 was more northern J-M205 branch, it lived in tribal way of life just as most of north Albania and Montenegro did 800 to 600 years ago. Therefore with tribal expansion it achieved higher percentages then in other areas but later with slavicisation of their territories and in modern days they declare Serbs. This might explain percentage and origin of J2-M205>Y22059 Serbs.


Originally J2-M205 is of Canaanite, Akkadian and proto-Semitic origin. Here i debated one of clades, more specifically Y22059 and its most recent common ancestor that lived 1000 years ago. Which most likely expanded to Balkans with Phoenicians thru Greeks or later with Romans. Or possibly some other Bronze or Iron Age migration.

Mercurial
23-11-19, 10:44
Hey Dema, thanks for new inputs on the topic. Is there a new estimate on the arrival time of J2b1 in Europe?

Dema
24-11-19, 01:13
Hey Dema, thanks for new inputs on the topic. Is there a new estimate on the arrival time of J2b1 in Europe?



NP ! This is my humble opinion mostly based on so far given facts.


Regarding J2-M205 in general and Europe expansion by my opinion most of subclades have spread somewhere in time of 2000 BCE to 200 BCE with Phoenicians, and then second wave 200 BCE - 400 CE with Romans and Christians thru Middle East.

There is three routes J2-M205 could arrive to Europe after its successful expansion in Bronze Age Middle East:

Route 1, from Zagros to North Caucasus, from Volga to rest of Europe. Which is actually Bronze Age Indo-European route and J-M205 most certainly did not go this way to Europe.
Even tho i have to say we have so far one identified minor branch in Ukraine/Poland, and by my estimation is offshoot from Zagros to North Caucasus and then to modern day Ukraine. But other then this rare samples none of other clades seems to expand thru Caucasus. Also this clade seems to be isolated so far, meaning their expansion from Zagros to North Caucasus and then to Ukraine most likely happened in time of Bronze Age or Iron Age.

Route 2, from Fertile Crescent to Anatolia/Turkey and then to rest of Europe. This route is extremely unlikely giving that J2-M205 is almost none existent in Turkey and so far is identified only in one branch.
None of the branches found in Mediterranean Europe and Europe in general cannot be connected to Anatolia neither Caucasus. They all seem to expand to Europe but not stopping by in Turkey which leads us to possible Route 3.

Route 3, With Phoenicians to Mediterranean Europe where J2-M205 is found mostly today among European population. Also later with Roman Empire and with ancient Greeks like Alexander the Great.

Bellow i draw this 3 scenarios, where its clear that "Route 3", or Mediterranean thalassocratic route is most probable giving that J2-M205 was found among ancient Phoenician bones 1600 BCE in Sidon.
Also blue stars represent where J2-M205 is mostly found today in Europeans so as seen regarding Europe its mostly found towards the Mediterranean Europe and all the way to England where Phoenicians apparently also sailed.

There is few subclades that have Roman time TMRCA with Middle Easterners, but other then that most of subclades seem to separate much earlier, at least 1000 or 2000 years prior to Roman Empire which would fit Phoenician time. I dont believe that any J2-M205 expanded to Europe before this period.


https://i.imgur.com/0gU2yjq.jpg

ShpataEMadhe
30-11-19, 05:11
I really don't understand why you go around making statements when you know nothing about Y-DNA haplogroups, or genetics in general for that matter. Percentages mean nothing, provide evidence/explanations or stop yammering on.

What do you mean "my people"? He's an Albanian and that's that. Also, isn't your surname of Italian origin? Stop being insecure and test.

Percentages are everything, I follow gjenetika and other sites to understand why certain people look a certain way. Albanians clearly look different to most of their neighbours and so do their haplogroups, it is natural

Italian surname sure but if you read your history you would understand what was happening 500+ years ago. Kingdom of Naples were on Albania's side during the ottoman wars, even after Kastrioti. And don't forget about arbereshe, they had their names converted into italian/latin

Kelmendasi
30-11-19, 12:44
Percentages are everything, I follow gjenetika and other sites to understand why certain people look a certain way. Albanians clearly look different to most of their neighbours and so do their haplogroups, it is natural

Italian surname sure but if you read your history you would understand what was happening 500+ years ago. Kingdom of Naples were on Albania's side during the ottoman wars, even after Kastrioti. And don't forget about arbereshe, they had their names converted into italian/latin
Man just test will you... Maybe then we will take you seriously.

Dema
03-12-19, 00:21
Percentages are everything, I follow gjenetika and other sites to understand why certain people look a certain way. Albanians clearly look different to most of their neighbours and so do their haplogroups, it is natural

Italian surname sure but if you read your history you would understand what was happening 500+ years ago. Kingdom of Naples were on Albania's side during the ottoman wars, even after Kastrioti. And don't forget about arbereshe, they had their names converted into italian/latin


Dude you are clueless about genetics. You are also clueless about history giving that in other thread you were asking basic info about Dardani.
Now you are typing stupidity here which has nothing to do with genetics neither haplogroups or anything. Skenderbeg, oh really?

Why are you giving excuses about your surname origin in this thread? You say Arbereshe, so are you Arbereshe or you just used them as excuse? Do you know they have more Slavic Y-DNA then usual Albanians?

Do you even speak Albanian language?

ShpataEMadhe
04-12-19, 11:47
Dude you are clueless about genetics. You are also clueless about history giving that in other thread you were asking basic info about Dardani.
Now you are typing stupidity here which has nothing to do with genetics neither haplogroups or anything. Skenderbeg, oh really?
Why are you giving excuses about your surname origin in this thread? You say Arbereshe, so are you Arbereshe or you just used them as excuse? Do you know they have more Slavic Y-DNA then usual Albanians?
Do you even speak Albanian language?

Ti akoma flet si debile, ik ba na nji appointment me doktorin

Someone asked about my surname for some reason so I gave the response, what you on about excuses? You probably have a Muslim invader surname and come here with BS like j2b m205 is an albanian haplogroup when it is much less than 1%, speaking to me about Slavic when that haplogroup is 5 times more common in Serbs so actually you are Slavic or middle eastern

Did you even know Kastriotis family name was also changed to Italian when they moved there or was they arbereshe too? YOU need to learn your history not me, talk about stupidity

Dema
04-12-19, 22:20
Ti akoma flet si debile, ik ba na nji appointment me doktorin

Someone asked about my surname for some reason so I gave the response, what you on about excuses? You probably have a Muslim invader surname and come here with BS like j2b m205 is an albanian haplogroup when it is much less than 1%, speaking to me about Slavic when that haplogroup is 5 times more common in Serbs so actually you are Slavic or middle eastern

Did you even know Kastriotis family name was also changed to Italian when they moved there or was they arbereshe too? YOU need to learn your history not me, talk about stupidity


Dude you are like ultra moron and disgrace to Albanians. The only reason why i am polite with you its because this is international J2-M205 thread and i dont want to disgrace Albanians in front of others.
I have just seen stupidity this moment you were writing in Apricity in Albanian DNA thread and most of Albanians told you that you are imbecile also.


Look what you write:

" In the genetic studies done on 629 albanians a grand total of 0 have come out with J2b-M241, this obviously includes kosovars. Where are you getting your data from? Ethnic serbs? "
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?223765-Albanian-Y-DNA-Project&p=5873147&viewfull=1#post5873147

You thought that Albanians dont have J2b-M241 because in gjenetika.com its labeled J2b-L283 xD

You are like ultra beginner with trust me retarded philosophy, and now you come here speaking about J2b-M205 when i am fully tested 111 markers + BigY + Yfull upload + autosomal.
Plus i shared all this results for years now with gjenetika.com and Albanian DNA project and made them publicly visible since day 1.

While you dont dare to test because you are Albanian only by mother's side, while by father side you are kopil. You are lying that you dont have 50 $ for test and spending time on genetic forums while in fact your insecurities are the main reason.

J2b-M205 is probably most none-Slavic haplogroup among all Balkan haplogroups. Its found only in small percentages among South Slavs, in contrast to most of Balkan haplogroups that are found in higher percentages among North and East Slavs while J2-M205 is almost none-existent there.

Also J2-M205 is probably the only Balkan haplogroup that cannot be found among the Balkan Ashkalies and Gabels, but also Balkan Vlachs.

Only the rare can bear J2-M205 and the reason why Serbs have it today is because Illyrians lost 80 % of their territories to Slavs, but also Albanians later to Serbs and Montenegrin Slavs.

Skenderbegs brothers and sisters had Serbo-Slavic names, like his oldest brother Stanisha. Which is not a big surprise giving that his mother was a Serb too.
Also he slayed Muslim Albanians from Kruja region. I am what i am. This is the cards i was dealt, but before everything i am Albanian!

Arbereshe have strait 20 % of Slavic Y-DNA and 10 % of Afro-Semitic E-M123. While 20 % of Slavic Y lines is contribution of seventh century Slavic migrations towards Balkans. Afro-Semitic E-M123 is almost none-existent among Albanians therefore is most likely Italian influence.


So to conclude, you are Albanian kopil but your father is not of Albanian origin. I guess this is the reason why you asked me was male accepted into society or he raped a lady.
Is this exactly a case within your family?



Furthermore your Albanian language is even more broken then your English. Only God knows what origin are you and where are you from.

Eqrem Çabej from the South Albania and Lohja and Kriçi tribes from the North are J2-M205, while you are kopil given in Italy to be raised and thought that he is Albanian.



So what if Albanians have less then 1 % of J2-M205 moron. Albanians have less then 1 % of G2a also as you can see in gjenetika.com, but its older and has longer European presence then most of major lines you find in Albanians and Balkan these days.

Imperial Romans had more then 50 % of J haplogroup, Including J2-M205.




J2-M205 is Zagros Paleolithic, Akkadian, Canaanite, Phoenician, Imperial Roman, Roman Gladiator in England, while you are bastard Albanian only by mothers side given into Italy.

Ta qift gabeli motren ty.

Dema
05-12-19, 11:55
Hahaha look what this clown wrote here, i knew its because of insecurities and complexes :

"I may do the y-dna one day but am slightly worried about it because of my surname being Italian."https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?223765-Albanian-Y-DNA-Project&p=5845264&viewfull=1#post5845264




Dude i would say there is over 75 % chance that you are not Italian neither Albanian. At least regarding Y-DNA. And culturally you are not 100%

Also Albobalboa has already explained you everything very well. He also told you that you are Serb and that you work only in contribution of Albanian enemies and i would agree with him.

Can you open your own thread and continue your stupidity there and stories that your "italian dad" has told you?

Dema
06-12-19, 06:30
I just double checked Arberesh results, its just as i said above. Average for Arberesh is 10 % I2a-CTS10228, 10 % R1a-M198, 10 % E1b-M123, 10 % I2a-M223.
Interestingly they have only 2.7 % of J2b all together. Also their E-v13 is also somewhat low, only 13 %.


Also interestingly i found new Albanian J-M205 sample among Calabria Arberesh.

Sample ID ISN59 ARB_CAL J-M12+
He has interesting set of markers (14 24 14 9 16-20 ) which is so far fifth identified branch of J2-M205 among Albanians. Also there is a chance that this branch is CTS1969 negative.

This markers are atypical for Balkan and there is chance he falls into Saudi/Yemen/Oman branch J-Y45447, now whether did he arrive with Albanians from Balkans or he was already in Italian Peninsula and become Arberesh giving that he has no Balkan relatives is still unclear to me.

Dema
08-12-19, 04:41
Information (R. Elsie) about Lohja tribe that turned out J2-M205>CTS1969>Y22059

Also interestingly its mentioned that they had lots of interactions with Reçi tribe, and when i look at genetika.com i see that Reçi are so far tested J2a-M410, which is just as J2-M205 more rare in North Albania but more common in South Albania, Greece and Italy.





The Lohja Tribe


Location of Tribal Territory

The small Lohja (or Lohe) tribal region is situated in the upper valley of the Proni I thatë (Dry Creek) in the District of Malësia e Madhe in northern Albania, around the village of Dedaj on the southern side of the valley. It borders on the traditional tribal regions of Shkreli and Kastrati to the west and north, and Reçi and Rrjolli to the south. The main settlements of this tribe are Lohja e Poshtme (Lower Lohja) and Lohja e Sipërme (Upper Lohja), about 15 kilometers northeast of Koplik.

Population

The term Lohja occurs, according to Edith Durham, in a Serbian document in 1348 as Loho. The form Loeia is mentioned in the ecclesiastical report of Pietro Stefano Gaspari in 1671. On the 1688 map of the Venetian cartographer Francesco Maria Coronelli, the region is called Loheia, and in an ecclesiastical report in 1703 the Catholic Archbishop of Bar [Antivari], Vincentius Zmajevich, records two forms Locheia and Loheia.
The Lohja, initially with two bajraks, formed one bajrak with the neighboring and equally small Reçi tribe, which lived slightly farther down the valley. It was of polyphyletic origin and was thus not a fis in the sense of a tribe claiming descent of the male side from one common ancestor.
Lohja was originally a Catholic tribe. It later turned Muslim, though it retained a large Catholic minority. The apostolic visitor to Albania, Pietro Stefano Gaspari, who travelled through the region in 1671-2, reported:
The village Loeia [Lohja], 6 miles from Riolo, is the site of the church of Saint Nicholas, that seems to be roofless. There are 20 homes here, and 183 souls. 30 scudi would be needed to repair the church. Needed in this village are a set of vestments and an icon of Saint Nicholas.

Edith Durham described Lohja as one bajrak, consisting of 80 Moslem and 40 Catholic houses.
It had a mosque and hodza, and shares a priest with Rechi, the tribe next door – also mostly Moslem. Rechi-Lohja is of mixed stock, mainly originating from Pulati and Slaku, and was originally all Catholic.

In the first reliable census taken in Albania in 1918 under Austro-Hungarian administration, the population statistics of the Lohja tribe were given as follows: 94 households with a total of 709 inhabitants.
French consul Hyacinthe Hecquard regarded the Lohja, together with the neighbouring Reçi, as a particularly intelligent tribe. Their renown was such that their chiefs and elders were almost always consulted by the other tribes in matters of war or when important decisions were to be taken, and the opinion of this tribe was generally followed. Because of their intelligence and fidelity, they were also much sought after as servants for large Muslim families and pashas.
The Lohja tribe shared pastureland on the coast on the slopes of Mali I Rrencit with Shkreli, Rrjolli and Kelmendi, where they were wont to spend their winters with the herds.

Tribal legendry, Ancestry and History

Edith Durham states that the Lohja were mixed descent from Shllaku and Pulati. ¨Probably families flowed down into this more fertile district not far from the lake when Serb rule broke up, for “Loho” and its mills are mentioned in 1348 by Stefan Dushan among the districts which are given to the Church.¨
Baron Nopcsa estimated that they arrived in their present tribal territory in about 1590, which was equivalent to 11 generations before his time (ca. 1907).

https://i.imgur.com/9VfxRHd.jpg
Photo by Kel Marubi, 1910.






https://i.imgur.com/KnSGVAK.jpg

Kelmendasi
08-12-19, 13:08
Information (R. Elsie) about Lohja tribe that turned out J2-M205>CTS1969>Y22059

Also interestingly its mentioned that they had lots of interactions with Reçi tribe, and when i look at genetika.com i see that Reçi are so far tested J2a-M410, which is just as J2-M205 more rare in North Albania but more common in South Albania, Greece and Italy.





The Lohja Tribe


Location of Tribal Territory

The small Lohja (or Lohe) tribal region is situated in the upper valley of the Proni I thatë (Dry Creek) in the District of Malësia e Madhe in northern Albania, around the village of Dedaj on the southern side of the valley. It borders on the traditional tribal regions of Shkreli and Kastrati to the west and north, and Reçi and Rrjolli to the south. The main settlements of this tribe are Lohja e Poshtme (Lower Lohja) and Lohja e Sipërme (Upper Lohja), about 15 kilometers northeast of Koplik.

Population

The term Lohja occurs, according to Edith Durham, in a Serbian document in 1348 as Loho. The form Loeia is mentioned in the ecclesiastical report of Pietro Stefano Gaspari in 1671. On the 1688 map of the Venetian cartographer Francesco Maria Coronelli, the region is called Loheia, and in an ecclesiastical report in 1703 the Catholic Archbishop of Bar [Antivari], Vincentius Zmajevich, records two forms Locheia and Loheia.
The Lohja, initially with two bajraks, formed one bajrak with the neighboring and equally small Reçi tribe, which lived slightly farther down the valley. It was of polyphyletic origin and was thus not a fis in the sense of a tribe claiming descent of the male side from one common ancestor.
Lohja was originally a Catholic tribe. It later turned Muslim, though it retained a large Catholic minority. The apostolic visitor to Albania, Pietro Stefano Gaspari, who travelled through the region in 1671-2, reported:
The village Loeia [Lohja], 6 miles from Riolo, is the site of the church of Saint Nicholas, that seems to be roofless. There are 20 homes here, and 183 souls. 30 scudi would be needed to repair the church. Needed in this village are a set of vestments and an icon of Saint Nicholas.

Edith Durham described Lohja as one bajrak, consisting of 80 Moslem and 40 Catholic houses.
It had a mosque and hodza, and shares a priest with Rechi, the tribe next door – also mostly Moslem. Rechi-Lohja is of mixed stock, mainly originating from Pulati and Slaku, and was originally all Catholic.

In the first reliable census taken in Albania in 1918 under Austro-Hungarian administration, the population statistics of the Lohja tribe were given as follows: 94 households with a total of 709 inhabitants.
French consul Hyacinthe Hecquard regarded the Lohja, together with the neighbouring Reçi, as a particularly intelligent tribe. Their renown was such that their chiefs and elders were almost always consulted by the other tribes in matters of war or when important decisions were to be taken, and the opinion of this tribe was generally followed. Because of their intelligence and fidelity, they were also much sought after as servants for large Muslim families and pashas.
The Lohja tribe shared pastureland on the coast on the slopes of Mali I Rrencit with Shkreli, Rrjolli and Kelmendi, where they were wont to spend their winters with the herds.

Tribal legendry, Ancestry and History

Edith Durham states that the Lohja were mixed descent from Shllaku and Pulati. ¨Probably families flowed down into this more fertile district not far from the lake when Serb rule broke up, for “Loho” and its mills are mentioned in 1348 by Stefan Dushan among the districts which are given to the Church.¨
Baron Nopcsa estimated that they arrived in their present tribal territory in about 1590, which was equivalent to 11 generations before his time (ca. 1907).

https://i.imgur.com/9VfxRHd.jpg
Photo by Kel Marubi, 1910.






https://i.imgur.com/KnSGVAK.jpg
The Lohja themselves are heterogeneous in terms of origin and are divided into two main Bajraks which are unrelated to one another. The two Bajraks are the Lohja e Poshtme and Lohja e Siperme. If I recall correctly, this J-Y22059 guy is from Lohja e Poshtme. Lohja e Poshtme is more heterogeneous than Lohja e Siperme, with many families within the Bajrak claiming origin from different places. For example, some families claim to hail from the tribal territory of Gruda whilst others claim to hail from other tribal regions such as Pult or Dukagjin.

The Lohja e Siperme however primarily claim origin from the tribal territory of Kuci. Most of the families claim to descend from three brothers; Koc Gjoka, Ul Gjoka and Iv Gjoka who all came from Kuci. From Koci the Kocaj brotherhood was formed, from Ul the Ulaj and from Iv the Ivaj. These brotherhoods ended up co-existing with the native brotherhood of the region, the Vukcaj. The Vukcaj had close ties to the Xhaj of Shkreli who are also an anas family, so perhaps they are related. http://zanimalsise.com/lohja-e-vogel-me-histori-te-madhe-prejardhja-e-banoreve-ublat-dhe-shirgji/

Would be best to test more families from this tribe and see whether they do indeed have separate origins from each other. Should also find someone from the Vukcaj.

Dema
08-12-19, 15:01
The Lohja themselves are heterogeneous in terms of origin and are divided into two main Bajraks which are unrelated to one another. The two Bajraks are the Lohja e Poshtme and Lohja e Siperme. If I recall correctly, this J-Y22059 guy is from Lohja e Poshtme. Lohja e Poshtme is more heterogeneous than Lohja e Siperme, with many families within the Bajrak claiming origin from different places. For example, some families claim to hail from the tribal territory of Gruda whilst others claim to hail from other tribal regions such as Pult or Dukagjin.

The Lohja e Siperme however primarily claim origin from the tribal territory of Kuci. Most of the families claim to descend from three brothers; Koc Gjoka, Ul Gjoka and Iv Gjoka who all came from Kuci. From Koci the Kocaj brotherhood was formed, from Ul the Ulaj and from Iv the Ivaj. These brotherhoods ended up co-existing with the native brotherhood of the region, the Vukcaj. The Vukcaj had close ties to the Xhaj of Shkreli who are also an anas family, so perhaps they are related. http://zanimalsise.com/lohja-e-vogel-me-histori-te-madhe-prejardhja-e-banoreve-ublat-dhe-shirgji/

Would be best to test more families from this tribe and see whether they do indeed have separate origins from each other. Should also find someone from the Vukcaj.

I have read this text from zanimalsise, its interesting.
Yes as it can be seen from text i posted from R Elsie book, Lohja was first divided into two bajraks but then together with Reçi tribe united under one bajrak.
Our sample in project comes from Lohja e Poshtme (Lower Lohja). Also i am pretty sure that Idriz Lohja from photo is also from Lohja e Poshme and that they are J2-M205.
It would be good to test Lohja surname to verify this.

Regarding Lohja e Siperme (Upper Lohja), it would be good to test them and confirm are they really from Kuci and where are they from.

However as i said both upper and lower Lohja later united together with Reçi under one bajrak.
Reçi is tested as J2a-M410>M67

I agree that Vukcaj (the anas family) should be tested also.

Kelmendasi
08-12-19, 15:32
I have read this text from zanimalsise, its interesting.
Yes as it can be seen from text i posted from R Elsie book, Lohja was first divided into two bajraks but then together with Reçi tribe united under one bajrak.
Our sample in project comes from Lohja e Poshtme. Also i am pretty sure that Idriz Lohja from photo is also from Lohja e Poshme and that they are J2-M205.
It would be good to test Lohja surname to verify this.

Regarding Lohja e Siperme, it would be good to test them and confirm are they really from Kuci and where are they from.

However as i said both upper and lower Lohja later united together with Reçi under one bajrak.
Reçi is tested as J2a-M410>M67

I agree that Vukcaj (the anas family) should be tested also.
From what I have gathered (and what is shown on the map), only Lohja e Poshtme was later included within the Bajrak of Reci. Lohja e Siperme seems to have remained separate.

I'm not too sure as to where Idriz Lohja was from, he may have been from Lohja e Poshtme but there isn't any info surrounding him (that I'm aware of). He could be J-M205, but could also belong to some other group considering the fact that most families of this area have different origins for the most part. The surname Lohja can be found in cities like Lezhe and Shkoder, but also in places such as Velipoje and Koplik. Though, I don't believe that every family which has the surname Lohja is related. It just signifies origin from Lohje.

I think it's possible that the families from Lohja e Siperme that claim descent from Kuci, may actually belong to a different haplogroup than the Kuci from Montenegro. This is mainly based on how other tribes whom claim descent from Kuc end up belonging to different haplos. Examples include the Suma and Kiri.

Reci is interesting as well, oral tradition states that they arrived as Catholics from the village of Rec which is located NW of Velipoje.

Anyways, my bad if this is off-topic. It's just that this tribe has a pretty interesting history.

Dema
08-12-19, 16:52
Its like that in map, but according to various registers Lohja was registered together with Reçi. And when Edith Durham visited North Albania she said that Lohja operates under one bajrak:
"The Lohja, initially with two bajraks, formed one bajrak with the neighboring and equally small Reçi tribe, which lived slightly farther down the valley. "
"Edith Durham described Lohja as one bajrak, consisting of 80 Moslem and 40 Catholic houses.
It had a mosque and hodza, and shares a priest with Rechi, the tribe next door – also mostly Moslem. Rechi-Lohja is of mixed stock, mainly originating from Pulati and Slaku, and was originally all Catholic."
Maybe she was speaking about lower Lohja? giving that she didnt mention any tradition from Kuci or from Montenegro?

I agree about Upper Lohja might not turn out Kuci cluster, for that reason is even more interesting to test them and to see what is their origin.
No its strait on topic. I agree that its interesting, finally got new material for exploration : )

J2-M205>Y22059 was identified in older North Montenegrin Kriçi tribe from Durmitor mountains, therefore its possible that our Lohja Y22059 sample is also expansion from the area of Montenegro, which is very close to North Albania.


EDIT:

I just got info that Idriz Lohja is probably from Upper Lohja, and there is chance i will get Upper Lohja member to test. However we will see how everything will turn out, we cant know until we test them.
I wonder what our Lohja e Poshme sample says regarding his origin? Also if i remember Leki said they are with origin from Montenegro, so same as Upper Lohja?

Kelmendasi
08-12-19, 19:33
Its like that in map, but according to various registers Lohja was registered together with Reçi. And when Edith Durham visited North Albania she said that Lohja operates under one bajrak:
"The Lohja, initially with two bajraks, formed one bajrak with the neighboring and equally small Reçi tribe, which lived slightly farther down the valley. "
"Edith Durham described Lohja as one bajrak, consisting of 80 Moslem and 40 Catholic houses.
It had a mosque and hodza, and shares a priest with Rechi, the tribe next door – also mostly Moslem. Rechi-Lohja is of mixed stock, mainly originating from Pulati and Slaku, and was originally all Catholic."
Maybe she was speaking about lower Lohja? giving that she didnt mention any tradition from Kuci or from Montenegro?

I agree about Upper Lohja might not turn out Kuci cluster, for that reason is even more interesting to test them and to see what is their origin.
No its strait on topic. I agree that its interesting, finally got new material for exploration : )

J2-M205>Y22059 was identified in older North Montenegrin Kriçi tribe from Durmitor mountains, therefore its possible that our Lohja Y22059 sample is also expansion from the area of Montenegro, which is very close to North Albania.


EDIT:

I just got info that Idriz Lohja is probably from Upper Lohja, and there is chance i will get Upper Lohja member to test. However we will see how everything will turn out, we cant know until we test them.
I wonder what our Lohja e Poshme sample says regarding his origin? Also if i remember Leki said they are with origin from Montenegro, so same as Upper Lohja?
I think Edith Durham was just stating what she believed was the origin of the locals. She also states that the Reci are also of mixed origin from Pulti and Dukagjin (Shllaku). However, these traditions aren't present among the locals as far as I am aware. Perhaps they are present among some families, not too sure.

I think it's trickier to pin point the origin of the families from lower Lohja as they seem to be very mixed. I do know that there are some families who claim to stem from Grude. I think we should ask the J-Y22059 guy what his family say in regards to their origin. I believe Leki said that they are far more heterogeneous than Upper Lohja and that some claim descent from Montenegro.

We should try and contact some of the more prominent families from Upper Lohja. The Brahimaj come to mind. This family were the Bajraktars of Lohja and included individuals such as Nike Luli and his son Gjoke Nike Luli. There are also the Kotaj, Brulaj and Kelaj. The Kelaj seem to have remained Catholic.

Dema
09-12-19, 04:48
In link you posted they say: "Origjina e Lohjaneve te sotem sillet ne mes asaj te Kucit, Shllakut, e Pultit, rradh edhe nga Plava e Gucia, ndersa nga Gruda thuajse nuk trashegohet asgje. Me sa duket ka ndonje ngaterrese me ndonje fis te Lohes se Poshtme qe thone se e kemi origjinen nga Gruda."

So basically what they are saying is most of families from Lohje today call origin from either Kuci, Shllaku or Pulat, but they also mention Plava and Gucia. Also they say some families from Lower Lohja mention origin from Grude but they are dismissing Gruda option.
So what most of them are saying is what Edith Durham said so Shllaku and Pulat, but also they mention Kuci (Montenegro) as most probable origin.

As far as i remember Leki said that our J2-M205 sample is even tho living in Shkoder, with origin from Montenegro. Also he mentioned differences between upper and lower Lohja.

Well, tbh origin from Montenegro is best suitable for Y22059 MRCA, giving that he probably comes from there. We cant know without testing them and it would be good to hear more from our Lower Lohja guy.

ShpataEMadhe
22-12-19, 01:18
Dude you are like ultra moron and disgrace to Albanians. The only reason why i am polite with you its because this is international J2-M205 thread and i dont want to disgrace Albanians in front of others.
I have just seen stupidity this moment you were writing in Apricity in Albanian DNA thread and most of Albanians told you that you are imbecile also.
Look what you write:
" In the genetic studies done on 629 albanians a grand total of 0 have come out with J2b-M241, this obviously includes kosovars. Where are you getting your data from? Ethnic serbs? "
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?223765-Albanian-Y-DNA-Project&p=5873147&viewfull=1#post5873147
You thought that Albanians dont have J2b-M241 because in gjenetika.com its labeled J2b-L283 xD
You are like ultra beginner with trust me retarded philosophy, and now you come here speaking about J2b-M205 when i am fully tested 111 markers + BigY + Yfull upload + autosomal.
Plus i shared all this results for years now with gjenetika.com and Albanian DNA project and made them publicly visible since day 1.
While you dont dare to test because you are Albanian only by mother's side, while by father side you are kopil. You are lying that you dont have 50 $ for test and spending time on genetic forums while in fact your insecurities are the main reason.
J2b-M205 is probably most none-Slavic haplogroup among all Balkan haplogroups. Its found only in small percentages among South Slavs, in contrast to most of Balkan haplogroups that are found in higher percentages among North and East Slavs while J2-M205 is almost none-existent there.
Also J2-M205 is probably the only Balkan haplogroup that cannot be found among the Balkan Ashkalies and Gabels, but also Balkan Vlachs.
Only the rare can bear J2-M205 and the reason why Serbs have it today is because Illyrians lost 80 % of their territories to Slavs, but also Albanians later to Serbs and Montenegrin Slavs.
Skenderbegs brothers and sisters had Serbo-Slavic names, like his oldest brother Stanisha. Which is not a big surprise giving that his mother was a Serb too.
Also he slayed Muslim Albanians from Kruja region. I am what i am. This is the cards i was dealt, but before everything i am Albanian!
Arbereshe have strait 20 % of Slavic Y-DNA and 10 % of Afro-Semitic E-M123. While 20 % of Slavic Y lines is contribution of seventh century Slavic migrations towards Balkans. Afro-Semitic E-M123 is almost none-existent among Albanians therefore is most likely Italian influence.
So to conclude, you are Albanian kopil but your father is not of Albanian origin. I guess this is the reason why you asked me was male accepted into society or he raped a lady.
Is this exactly a case within your family?
Furthermore your Albanian language is even more broken then your English. Only God knows what origin are you and where are you from.
Eqrem Çabej from the South Albania and Lohja and Kriçi tribes from the North are J2-M205, while you are kopil given in Italy to be raised and thought that he is Albanian.
So what if Albanians have less then 1 % of J2-M205 moron. Albanians have less then 1 % of G2a also as you can see in gjenetika.com, but its older and has longer European presence then most of major lines you find in Albanians and Balkan these days.
Imperial Romans had more then 50 % of J haplogroup, Including J2-M205.
J2-M205 is Zagros Paleolithic, Akkadian, Canaanite, Phoenician, Imperial Roman, Roman Gladiator in England, while you are bastard Albanian only by mothers side given into Italy.
Ta qift gabeli motren ty.

Wah wah wah

You respectful hahaha. You are clearly a jevg trying to give albanians a bad name on the internet. It is 0.7% amongst albanians, 5% more amongst Serbs and more in middle east. Why would it be more amongst Serbs yet albanians have more ev13, r1b and l283, because it is not ilyrian. Also j2b m205 is not j2b m241, clown. You try to say that it remained amongst Serbs because they took ilyrian land yet why did it not remain in Albania? Because it is not ilyrian, why would it be wiped out from albania and not serbia? Go find yourself a brain

My grandad was blonde and only spoke albanian, that is where my Y genes come from. Keep talking nonsense though and make a fool of yourself, how dare you talk shit about Kastrioti, he was 100% albanian. Albanians didn't have muslim names before osmans showed up so of course he nor his family didn't either. He killed Muslim albanians? Good riddance, I would have killed even more at the time. He lived amongst the osmans after they kidnapped him so everything he did he did for the good of shqiptaret, he knew what racc e poshter the osman arabs were and didn't want his people to have anything to do with them

There is nothing you can say that affects my race, I have blonde cousins, aunts, uncles and an Italian surname what are you so upset about? Learn your history about albanian/Italian allegiance during osman era. Arberesh are only half the story

blevins13
22-12-19, 01:51
Wah wah wah

You respectful hahaha. You are clearly a jevg trying to give albanians a bad name on the internet. It is 0.7% amongst albanians, 5% more amongst Serbs and more in middle east. Why would it be more amongst Serbs yet albanians have more ev13, r1b and l283, because it is not ilyrian. Also j2b m205 is not j2b m241, clown. You try to say that it remained amongst Serbs because they took ilyrian land yet why did it not remain in Albania? Because it is not ilyrian, why would it be wiped out from albania and not serbia? Go find yourself a brain

My grandad was blonde and only spoke albanian, that is where my Y genes come from. Keep talking nonsense though and make a fool of yourself, how dare you talk shit about Kastrioti, he was 100% albanian. Albanians didn't have muslim names before osmans showed up so of course he nor his family didn't either. He killed Muslim albanians? Good riddance, I would have killed even more at the time. He lived amongst the osmans after they kidnapped him so everything he did he did for the good of shqiptaret, he knew what racc e poshter the osman arabs were and didn't want his people to have anything to do with them

There is nothing you can say that affects my race, I have blonde cousins, aunts, uncles and an Italian surname what are you so upset about? Learn your history about albanian/Italian allegiance during osman era. Arberesh are only half the story

Being blonde doesn’t say anything in relation with Albanians.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

ShpataEMadhe
22-12-19, 02:16
Being blonde doesn’t say anything in relation with Albanians.
Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

You are right but that idiot won't stop talking about personal shit. This isn't about him or me, this is about facts and statistics. He ignores them and makes stupid claims about j2b m205 and getting personal about it, you can't beat statistics. This isnt about individuals, its about the bigger picture

"L283 is almost non-existent in North Africa [one Sephardim from Morocco] while J-M205 has been found in ancient Egyptians"

Dema
22-12-19, 06:04
Omg this stupid guy again : D I swear for a long time i didnt see a dumber person.
Do you know what your problem is? That you claim various things but you never give any proof for them. And when you are given proofs which contradict you, you dont admit it but you just run away.
You are classic weak person. Lets try to have conversation....





Why would it be more amongst Serbs yet albanians have more ev13, r1b and l283, because it is not ilyrian.

Are the Illyrians the only ancient people you ever heard of? I think i told you like 10 times already that J2-M205 is Akkadian, Canaanite, Phoenician..
Ancient Greeks and Romans were heavily influenced by Phoenicians, even Greek and Roman alphabets have origin in Phoenician alphabet.

So i dont know which part of it you dont understand? You do know that even tho Phoenicians thought Greeks and Romans how to write easily, Illyrians refused writing system and remained illiterate for many centuries to come. Actually the only Illyrian written texts we can find are either on Greek or Latin alphabet and its usually names on graves.




Also j2b m205 is not j2b m241, clown.

You are the only clown here...

So what, are you jealous : D J2a-M410, J2b-M205, J2b-M241, even J1, we are all J-M304 brotherhood and we will always be closer one to another via direct paternal line then to any other haplogroup.

J2b-M241 is more common only in North Albania. In Greece, Italy and South Albania J2a is more common, so what now ?




You try to say that it remained amongst Serbs because they took ilyrian land yet why did it not remain in Albania? Because it is not ilyrian, why would it be wiped out from albania and not serbia? Go find yourself a brain

This is exactly what im saying. Its same as with J2b-L283>PH1602. Explain to me why is there PH1602 Serbs and no PH1602 Albanians?
J2b2>PH1602 Serbs are closer to Illyrian sample found in ancient Dalmatia then any Albanian is.
Do you understand this? answer pls?

And btw there are J2-M205 Albanians in 5 different subclades that i managed to identify so far. From north to south and east to west.




My grandad was blonde and only spoke albanian, that is where my Y genes come from.


Your grandad was blondie and she spoken Albainan? Do you know that Albanians are in vast majority brown haired and brown eyed with pale skin?

Features you are describing could easily be Vandal, Slavic or Goth. Maybe Hungarian or something like that.
Italians are also not the blondest people in the world lol. Its not that they are scandinavians lol. For both Albanians and Italians being blond is somewhat atypical.
You would never dare to join Albanian DNA project and put your results to be public even before they show up, just as i did. Even if you test, you will first do it secretly and then join if you are ok with results. Because of insecurities.

You even admitted that you are a bit afraid of testing because you have Italian surname and you dont know your origin. Do you want me to quote you again ?



Keep talking nonsense though and make a fool of yourself, how dare you talk shit about Kastrioti, he was 100% albanian. Albanians didn't have muslim names before osmans showed up so of course he nor his family didn't either. He killed Muslim albanians? Good riddance, I would have killed even more at the time. He lived amongst the osmans after they kidnapped him so everything he did he did for the good of shqiptaret, he knew what racc e poshter the osman arabs were and didn't want his people to have anything to do with them

bla bla bla then you would have to kill 80 % of Albanians since 80 % is Muslim, btw Albanian Muslims and Christians always colived in peace, you are outsider you should not talk about things you dont understand. Stanisha Kastrioti, Skenderbegs oldest brother and Voisava his mother probably from Voislava are both classic Slavic names. I dont say that Skenderbeg was Serb, his father was Albanian, but he was not really a important figure for Albanian history. For all we know best Albanian prosperity was in Ottoman Era in 4 Albanian Vilayets. The only problem is we could not unite these Vilayets after Ottoman Empire fall down but we were grabbed land by Greeks, Serbs, Montenegrins, and so on... You should learn your history imbecile



There is nothing you can say that affects my race, I have blonde cousins, aunts, uncles and an Italian surname what are you so upset about? Learn your history about albanian/Italian allegiance during osman era. Arberesh are only half the story

You were already told by others that your blondie cousins are most likely of Slavic origin. Like for example 20 % of Arberesh are. Which is nothing wrong really, some really cool Albanians i seen online had Slavic haplogroups. Your Italian surname is just so you can assimilate easier and have same rights in Italy like Italians even tho you are outsider with unknown origin.


So lets repeat again, J2-M205 was found in England gladiator from Roman time. It was found in Imperial Roman from Rome. J2-M205 was found in Phoenicians grave 1700 BCE in Sidon.

While you set foot in Italy probably in last 100-200 years of Albanian emigration and you say something about J2-M205 : D

ShpataEMadhe
22-12-19, 13:10
Omg this stupid guy again : D I swear for a long time i didnt see a dumber person.
Do you know what your problem is? That you claim various things but you never give any proof for them. And when you are given proofs which contradict you, you dont admit it but you just run away.
You are classic weak person. Lets try to have conversation....
Are the Illyrians the only ancient people you ever heard of? I think i told you like 10 times already that J2-M205 is Akkadian, Canaanite, Phoenician..
Ancient Greeks and Romans were heavily influenced by Phoenicians, even Greek and Roman alphabets have origin in Phoenician alphabet.
So i dont know which part of it you dont understand? You do know that even tho Phoenicians thought Greeks and Romans how to write easily, Illyrians refused writing system and remained illiterate for many centuries to come. Actually the only Illyrian written texts we can find are either on Greek or Latin alphabet and its usually names on graves.
You are the only clown here...
So what, are you jealous : D J2a-M410, J2b-M205, J2b-M241, even J1, we are all J-M304 brotherhood and we will always be closer one to another via direct paternal line then to any other haplogroup.
J2b-M241 is more common only in North Albania. In Greece, Italy and South Albania J2a is more common, so what now ?
This is exactly what im saying. Its same as with J2b-L283>PH1602. Explain to me why is there PH1602 Serbs and no PH1602 Albanians?
J2b2>PH1602 Serbs are closer to Illyrian sample found in ancient Dalmatia then any Albanian is.
Do you understand this? answer pls?
And btw there are J2-M205 Albanians in 5 different subclades that i managed to identify so far. From north to south and east to west.
Your grandad was blondie and she spoken Albainan? Do you know that Albanians are in vast majority brown haired and brown eyed with pale skin?
Features you are describing could easily be Vandal, Slavic or Goth. Maybe Hungarian or something like that.
Italians are also not the blondest people in the world lol. Its not that they are scandinavians lol. For both Albanians and Italians being blond is somewhat atypical.
You would never dare to join Albanian DNA project and put your results to be public even before they show up, just as i did. Even if you test, you will first do it secretly and then join if you are ok with results. Because of insecurities.
You even admitted that you are a bit afraid of testing because you have Italian surname and you dont know your origin. Do you want me to quote you again ?
bla bla bla then you would have to kill 80 % of Albanians since 80 % is Muslim, btw Albanian Muslims and Christians always colived in peace, you are outsider you should not talk about things you dont understand. Stanisha Kastrioti, Skenderbegs oldest brother and Voisava his mother probably from Voislava are both classic Slavic names. I dont say that Skenderbeg was Serb, his father was Albanian, but he was not really a important figure for Albanian history. For all we know best Albanian prosperity was in Ottoman Era in 4 Albanian Vilayets. The only problem is we could not unite these Vilayets after Ottoman Empire fall down but we were grabbed land by Greeks, Serbs, Montenegrins, and so on... You should learn your history imbecile
You were already told by others that your blondie cousins are most likely of Slavic origin. Like for example 20 % of Arberesh are. Which is nothing wrong really, some really cool Albanians i seen online had Slavic haplogroups. Your Italian surname is just so you can assimilate easier and have same rights in Italy like Italians even tho you are outsider with unknown origin.
So lets repeat again, J2-M205 was found in England gladiator from Roman time. It was found in Imperial Roman from Rome. J2-M205 was found in Phoenicians grave 1700 BCE in Sidon.
While you set foot in Italy probably in last 100-200 years of Albanian emigration and you say something about J2-M205 : D

Blonde is Slavic? If you mean south Slavic then it confirms your stupidity. There are more blonde albanians than south slavs in terms of ratio, it has nothing to do with South slavs which typically look like djokovic or mitrovic. Also I am not blonde but my grandad was, so I fall under "typical" albanian looks according to you but I see a lot of albanian blondes too but it has been thinned out thanks to Slavic invasion and others. Arberesh are dark haired, try again

South slavs having pH whatever doesnt mean they are ilyrian, albanians were ilyrians and south slavs took their land. Like I said before the genetics and ratio is what makes a race. Serbs have much less ilyrian dna than albanians

I have never said I am afraid of testing because of Italian surname, Italian people are proud of their history. I was making a joke since it was an Albanian topic, I am happy either way

You are a clown first spewing garbage about ilyrians and now Kastrioti, he was 100% albanian, his daughters having "serb" influenced names at the time means nothing genetically, just like there being Greek influence and Italian influence in albanians at different periods, he spoke albanian and returned to albania not serbia. Or do you also suggest that your 80% claim are not albanian but osmans? There goes your logic again

Kastrioti knows more about the osman than you ever will, he lived with them and was desperate to destroy them completely. And very few albanians are Muslim today, maybe only in your area they visit mosques or whatever, nowhere else. The few that do are only partly albanian if even that and have arab surnames, it's mostly jevg that are muslim

You stupid clown no one gives a shit for vilayet, osmans took albanian lands and made us a poor country which we still haven't recovered from, they then tried to remove the albanian language and history after converting their religion, they didn't care about European or ilyrian history, they only cared for Arab history. Why do you think so many albanians moved out from cities and lived in mountains and countrysides? To get aware from these osman, thus leaving behind houses, land, connections, businesses. This is why albania became poor and here you are defending these ugly bastards. Enver was one of the best things to happen in Albania, I commend him for destroying most of the mosques and getting rid of the muslims. And he did this whilst having a Muslim name

Now back to the topic at hand since you love to go off topic. J2b m205 can be found on planet Mars for all I care and it still doesn't make a difference, it is not albanian. 0.7% are the numbers. Get that through your head and stop talking shit about Shqiptaret you serb or arab jevg

Dema
22-12-19, 15:32
Blonde is Slavic? If you mean south Slavic then it confirms your stupidity. There are more blonde albanians than south slavs in terms of ratio, it has nothing to do with South slavs

How do you know there is more blond Albanians then South Slavs? Did you count them or you seen some research somewhere?
Where do you live? I doubt that you know anything about Albanians or South Slavs except what you read on internet. You dont want to say where you live even tho most likely in Italy or you just have Italian surname? I hope they didnt deport you : D There is no point to argue who is more blond Slavs or Albanians when its clear that Slavs being more northen are more blond while Albanians, Italians and Greeks being Mediterranean population are typically with brown or darker hair and eyes. I know that there are blond Albanians, but its not typical for Mediterranean population. Its probably northern admix, as i said Slavs, Goths, Vandals, Normans and so on...

So you claiming that you are Albanian because one of your family members was blond really sounds stupid.





Also I am not blonde but my grandad was, so I fall under "typical" albanian looks according to you but I see a lot of albanian blondes too but it has been thinned out thanks to Slavic invasion and others. Arberesh are dark haired, try again


According to study that tested many Arberesh families they have in average 10 % of I2a-CTS10228 and 10% R1a, but not even 3 % of J2b-L283. How do you comment this ?
You told me earlier that Albanians have almost 20 % of J2b-M241 and only tiny 0.7 % J2b-M205. Now i tell you that Arberesh have 20 % of Slavic lines and only tiny not even 3 % of J2b-M241, how do you comment on that?



South slavs having pH whatever doesnt mean they are ilyrian, albanians were ilyrians and south slavs took their land. Like I said before the genetics and ratio is what makes a race. Serbs have much less ilyrian dna than albanians

What are J2b2-PH1602 Serbs? They are most likely locals (Illyrian or similar), picked up by Serbs. Otherwise we would find J2b2-PH1602 Slovens also. Slovens and Serbs share same Slavic haplogroups but as far as i know there is no J2b2-PH1602 Slovens. Also how do you explain up to 30 % of E-v13 in South Serbs and Montenegrins ? In many subclades matching Albanians. There are even Albanian clans slavicised in Montenegro like Kuçi or Palbardhi.
While Slovens have only 3 % of E-v13.

J2b2-PH1602 Serbs are closer to Illyrian ancient sample then most of Albanians are, which are under Z638, so their parallel brother clade.




I have never said I am afraid of testing because of Italian surname, Italian people are proud of their history. I was making a joke since it was an Albanian topic, I am happy either way

you said:
"I may do the y-dna one day but am slightly worried about it because of my surname being Italian."

You typed this on apricity forum and you admitted that you are worrying because of your Italian surname and what DNA test might say.
If you were real Albanian you would not worry whatever test says. Even if its something you dont want. But you are classic pussy boy.



You are a clown first spewing garbage about ilyrians and now Kastrioti, he was 100% albanian, his daughters having "serb" influenced names at the time means nothing genetically, just like there being Greek influence and Italian influence in albanians at different periods, he spoke albanian and returned to albania not serbia. Or do you also suggest that your 80% claim are not albanian but osmans? There goes your logic again

I know probably 100x more about Illyrians then you will ever know in your life. You are internet learner and you only read what you want to read, you are not realistic. People like you cant be taken seriously by no means.

Skenderbegs mother being Serb and his sisters and brother having Slavic names is not a really big deal. You should not give excuses for it. As i said he was not really important character in Albanian history. Also after he lost there was a big prosperity and advancement of Albanians within the Ottoman system. Also albanian clans prospered and expanded out of their regular borders to further Ottoman borders. like from Scutari Vilayet to Kosovo Vilayet. Also dont forget that Kosovo was under Serbian control until Ottomans arrived, Brankovic family. And before them Nemanjic.





Kastrioti knows more about the osman than you ever will, he lived with them and was desperate to destroy them completely. And very few albanians are Muslim today, maybe only in your area they visit mosques or whatever, nowhere else. The few that do are only partly albanian if even that and have arab surnames, it's mostly jevg that are muslim

This is complete BS, as i work and travel often i am very often in North Albania and Kosovo. I interact with Albanians daily. Albanians are 80 % Muslim. I dont want to even mention Macedonian Albanian who are like more extreme Muslim. Kosovo Albanians where i am from are more mild. Also North Albainans are mostly Muslims. I dont know in what planet do you live but most of Albanians are Muslims, around 80 %.
If you look Albanian heroes in last 500 years most of them were Muslims. Skenderbeg was later pulled out of a dust and made into a myth. Skenderbeg never controlled any large territory except his mountain and eventually he lost while Albanians seen really big prosperity in this time after he lost. I would say this was probably best time for Albainans since Illyrian Kingdoms. Ottomans treated Albanians better then Romans did Illyrians so i cant really complain. For all im seeing in history if Ottoman empire would not arrive, Albanians would probably be wiped out by Slavs and Greeks. If Albanians managed to unite 4 Albanian Vilyets after 1913 into one big state it would be best thing ever happened to Albanians.



You stupid clown no one gives a shit for vilayet, osmans took albanian lands and made us a poor country which we still haven't recovered from, they then tried to remove the albanian language and history after converting their religion, they didn't care about European or ilyrian history, they only cared for Arab history. Why do you think so many albanians moved out from cities and lived in mountains and countrysides? To get aware from these osman, thus leaving behind houses, land, connections, businesses.

Ottomans never settled Balkans and they were not even interested in this land in means of living here. Ottomans never took any Albanian land neither you have Turks living here, maybe some minorities here and there.
How can you say no one gives a shit for Vilayet? When for example there was mostly Albanian settled Janina Vilayet. Its all Albanians that Greeks expelled into Albania from their lands with excuses they were fighting Muslim Ottomans. Btw these Greeks sounded pretty much as you do, all same arguments. Do you know that Janina was very important Albanian center and these people were expelled by Greeks and their lands were grabbed. Same happened in the North where Montenegrins and Serbs took over most of Northern lands after Ottoman empire went down.

Albanians had businesses and companies before Ottoman Empire arrived???, yea right, you live in dreams dude. Before Ottomans it was many Serb and Albanian families ruling territory separately and before them it was Nemanjic family so again a Serbian rule. This was Middle Ages, very brutal ages, you dont know what are you talking about.


This is why albania became poor and here you are defending these ugly bastards. Enver was one of the best things to happen in Albania, I commend him for destroying most of the mosques and getting rid of the muslims. And he did this whilst having a Muslim name

Actually Enver Hoxha is the reason why Albania is poor, and his communist socialist regime. I mean i cant blame Albanians for that. Communism and Enver Hoxha is a result of loss in second world war. He was installed as a Russian-Stalin marionette. North Korea regime is like modern USA or Canada if you compare it to Enver regime. He was ultra Stalinist and pro-Russian. Also in his time Albanian people probably suffered worst ages in their history.
Which Albanians are aware of, otherwise they would not destroy all his statues and piss on him after taking down his regime.




Now back to the topic at hand since you love to go off topic. J2b m205 can be found on planet Mars for all I care and it still doesn't make a difference, it is not albanian. 0.7% are the numbers. Get that through your head and stop talking shit about Shqiptaret you serb or arab jevg


You are kopil of unknown origin, you know that? J2-M205 is found in two northern highland tribes of which one is Albanian clan and another is from old layer of 12 century clans and is also pre-Slavic but specific language is unknown even tho its very possible its Albanian. Also in South Albania in Gjirokaster region we have cluster of Albanians that share CTS1969 SNP with us, and famous Albanian person Eqrem Cabej belongs to it.


You have extreme complexes about yourself, your surname, your identity and your people religion. Go heal your complexes somewhere else, weirdo.

blevins13
22-12-19, 16:00
How do you know there is more blond Albanians then South Slavs? Did you count them or you seen some research somewhere?
Where do you live? I doubt that you know anything about Albanians or South Slavs except what you read on internet. You dont want to say where you live even tho most likely in Italy or you just have Italian surname? I hope they didnt deport you : D There is no point to argue who is more blond Slavs or Albanians when its clear that Slavs being more northen are more blond while Albanians, Italians and Greeks being Mediterranean population are typically with brown or darker hair and eyes. I know that there are blond Albanians, but its not typical for Mediterranean population. Its probably northern admix, as i said Slavs, Goths, Vandals, Normans and so on...

So you claiming that you are Albanian because one of your family members was blond really sounds stupid.






According to study that tested many Arberesh families they have in average 10 % of I2a-CTS10228 and 10% R1a, but not even 3 % of J2b-L283. How do you comment this ?
You told me earlier that Albanians have almost 20 % of J2b-M241 and only tiny 0.7 % J2b-M205. Now i tell you that Arberesh have 20 % of Slavic lines and only tiny not even 3 % of J2b-M241, how do you comment on that?



What are J2b2-PH1602 Serbs? They are most likely locals (Illyrian or similar), picked up by Serbs. Otherwise we would find J2b2-PH1602 Slovens also. Slovens and Serbs share same Slavic haplogroups but as far as i know there is no J2b2-PH1602 Slovens. Also how do you explain up to 30 % of E-v13 in South Serbs and Montenegrins ? In many subclades matching Albanians. There are even Albanian clans slavicised in Montenegro like Kuçi or Palbardhi.
While Slovens have only 3 % of E-v13.

J2b2-PH1602 Serbs are closer to Illyrian ancient sample then most of Albanians are, which are under Z638, so their parallel brother clade.




you said:
"I may do the y-dna one day but am slightly worried about it because of my surname being Italian."

You typed this on apricity forum and you admitted that you are worrying because of your Italian surname and what DNA test might say.
If you were real Albanian you would not worry whatever test says. Even if its something you dont want. But you are classic pussy boy.



I know probably 100x more about Illyrians then you will ever know in your life. You are internet learner and you only read what you want to read, you are not realistic. People like you cant be taken seriously by no means.

Skenderbegs mother being Serb and his sisters and brother having Slavic names is not a really big deal. You should not give excuses for it. As i said he was not really important character in Albanian history. Also after he lost there was a big prosperity and advancement of Albanians within the Ottoman system. Also albanian clans prospered and expanded out of their regular borders to further Ottoman borders. like from Scutari Vilayet to Kosovo Vilayet. Also dont forget that Kosovo was under Serbian control until Ottomans arrived, Brankovic family. And before them Nemanjic.





This is complete BS, as i work and travel often i am very often in North Albania and Kosovo. I interact with Albanians daily. Albanians are 80 % Muslim. I dont want to even mention Macedonian Albanian who are like more extreme Muslim. Kosovo Albanians where i am from are more mild. Also North Albainans are mostly Muslims. I dont know in what planet do you live but most of Albanians are Muslims, around 80 %.
If you look Albanian heroes in last 500 years most of them were Muslims. Skenderbeg was later pulled out of a dust and made into a myth. Skenderbeg never controlled any large territory except his mountain and eventually he lost while Albanians seen really big prosperity in this time after he lost. I would say this was probably best time for Albainans since Illyrian Kingdoms. Ottomans treated Albanians better then Romans did Illyrians so i cant really complain. For all im seeing in history if Ottoman empire would not arrive, Albanians would probably be wiped out by Slavs and Greeks. If Albanians managed to unite 4 Albanian Vilyets after 1913 into one big state it would be best thing ever happened to Albanians.



Ottomans never settled Balkans and they were not even interested in this land in means of living here. Ottomans never took any Albanian land neither you have Turks living here, maybe some minorities here and there.
How can you say no one gives a shit for Vilayet? When for example there was mostly Albanian settled Janina Vilayet. Its all Albanians that Greeks expelled into Albania from their lands with excuses they were fighting Muslim Ottomans. Btw these Greeks sounded pretty much as you do, all same arguments. Do you know that Janina was very important Albanian center and these people were expelled by Greeks and their lands were grabbed. Same happened in the North where Montenegrins and Serbs took over most of Northern lands after Ottoman empire went down.

Albanians had businesses and companies before Ottoman Empire arrived???, yea right, you live in dreams dude. Before Ottomans it was many Serb and Albanian families ruling territory separately and before them it was Nemanjic family so again a Serbian rule. This was Middle Ages, very brutal ages, you dont know what are you talking about.



Actually Enver Hoxha is the reason why Albania is poor, and his communist socialist regime. I mean i cant blame Albanians for that. Communism and Enver Hoxha is a result of loss in second world war. He was installed as a Russian-Stalin marionette. North Korea regime is like modern USA or Canada if you compare it to Enver regime. He was ultra Stalinist and pro-Russian. Also in his time Albanian people probably suffered worst ages in their history.
Which Albanians are aware of, otherwise they would not destroy all his statues and piss on him after taking down his regime.





You are kopil of unknown origin, you know that? J2-M205 is found in two northern highland tribes of which one is Albanian clan and another is from old layer of 12 century clans and is also pre-Slavic but specific language is unknown even tho its very possible its Albanian. Also in South Albania in Gjirokaster region we have cluster of Albanians that share CTS1969 SNP with us, and famous Albanian person Eqrem Cabej belongs to it.


You have extreme complexes about yourself, your surname, your identity and your people religion. Go heal your complexes somewhere else, weirdo.

Just to set the record straight.
Gjergj Kastrioti (aka Skenderbeg) did not lose, he died of old age (62 years). His enemies (Ottomans), open his grave after his death and made amulets from his bones to become invincible.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

ShpataEMadhe
23-12-19, 15:06
How do you know there is more blond Albanians then South Slavs? Did you count them or you seen some research somewhere?
Where do you live? I doubt that you know anything about Albanians or South Slavs except what you read on internet. You dont want to say where you live even tho most likely in Italy or you just have Italian surname? I hope they didnt deport you : D There is no point to argue who is more blond Slavs or Albanians when its clear that Slavs being more northen are more blond while Albanians, Italians and Greeks being Mediterranean population are typically with brown or darker hair and eyes. I know that there are blond Albanians, but its not typical for Mediterranean population. Its probably northern admix, as i said Slavs, Goths, Vandals, Normans and so on...
So you claiming that you are Albanian because one of your family members was blond really sounds stupid.
According to study that tested many Arberesh families they have in average 10 % of I2a-CTS10228 and 10% R1a, but not even 3 % of J2b-L283. How do you comment this ?
You told me earlier that Albanians have almost 20 % of J2b-M241 and only tiny 0.7 % J2b-M205. Now i tell you that Arberesh have 20 % of Slavic lines and only tiny not even 3 % of J2b-M241, how do you comment on that?
What are J2b2-PH1602 Serbs? They are most likely locals (Illyrian or similar), picked up by Serbs. Otherwise we would find J2b2-PH1602 Slovens also. Slovens and Serbs share same Slavic haplogroups but as far as i know there is no J2b2-PH1602 Slovens. Also how do you explain up to 30 % of E-v13 in South Serbs and Montenegrins ? In many subclades matching Albanians. There are even Albanian clans slavicised in Montenegro like Kuçi or Palbardhi.
While Slovens have only 3 % of E-v13.
J2b2-PH1602 Serbs are closer to Illyrian ancient sample then most of Albanians are, which are under Z638, so their parallel brother clade.
you said:
"I may do the y-dna one day but am slightly worried about it because of my surname being Italian."
You typed this on apricity forum and you admitted that you are worrying because of your Italian surname and what DNA test might say.
If you were real Albanian you would not worry whatever test says. Even if its something you dont want. But you are classic pussy boy.
I know probably 100x more about Illyrians then you will ever know in your life. You are internet learner and you only read what you want to read, you are not realistic. People like you cant be taken seriously by no means.
Skenderbegs mother being Serb and his sisters and brother having Slavic names is not a really big deal. You should not give excuses for it. As i said he was not really important character in Albanian history. Also after he lost there was a big prosperity and advancement of Albanians within the Ottoman system. Also albanian clans prospered and expanded out of their regular borders to further Ottoman borders. like from Scutari Vilayet to Kosovo Vilayet. Also dont forget that Kosovo was under Serbian control until Ottomans arrived, Brankovic family. And before them Nemanjic.
This is complete BS, as i work and travel often i am very often in North Albania and Kosovo. I interact with Albanians daily. Albanians are 80 % Muslim. I dont want to even mention Macedonian Albanian who are like more extreme Muslim. Kosovo Albanians where i am from are more mild. Also North Albainans are mostly Muslims. I dont know in what planet do you live but most of Albanians are Muslims, around 80 %.
If you look Albanian heroes in last 500 years most of them were Muslims. Skenderbeg was later pulled out of a dust and made into a myth. Skenderbeg never controlled any large territory except his mountain and eventually he lost while Albanians seen really big prosperity in this time after he lost. I would say this was probably best time for Albainans since Illyrian Kingdoms. Ottomans treated Albanians better then Romans did Illyrians so i cant really complain. For all im seeing in history if Ottoman empire would not arrive, Albanians would probably be wiped out by Slavs and Greeks. If Albanians managed to unite 4 Albanian Vilyets after 1913 into one big state it would be best thing ever happened to Albanians.
Ottomans never settled Balkans and they were not even interested in this land in means of living here. Ottomans never took any Albanian land neither you have Turks living here, maybe some minorities here and there.
How can you say no one gives a shit for Vilayet? When for example there was mostly Albanian settled Janina Vilayet. Its all Albanians that Greeks expelled into Albania from their lands with excuses they were fighting Muslim Ottomans. Btw these Greeks sounded pretty much as you do, all same arguments. Do you know that Janina was very important Albanian center and these people were expelled by Greeks and their lands were grabbed. Same happened in the North where Montenegrins and Serbs took over most of Northern lands after Ottoman empire went down.
Albanians had businesses and companies before Ottoman Empire arrived???, yea right, you live in dreams dude. Before Ottomans it was many Serb and Albanian families ruling territory separately and before them it was Nemanjic family so again a Serbian rule. This was Middle Ages, very brutal ages, you dont know what are you talking about.
Actually Enver Hoxha is the reason why Albania is poor, and his communist socialist regime. I mean i cant blame Albanians for that. Communism and Enver Hoxha is a result of loss in second world war. He was installed as a Russian-Stalin marionette. North Korea regime is like modern USA or Canada if you compare it to Enver regime. He was ultra Stalinist and pro-Russian. Also in his time Albanian people probably suffered worst ages in their history.
Which Albanians are aware of, otherwise they would not destroy all his statues and piss on him after taking down his regime.
You are kopil of unknown origin, you know that? J2-M205 is found in two northern highland tribes of which one is Albanian clan and another is from old layer of 12 century clans and is also pre-Slavic but specific language is unknown even tho its very possible its Albanian. Also in South Albania in Gjirokaster region we have cluster of Albanians that share CTS1969 SNP with us, and famous Albanian person Eqrem Cabej belongs to it.
You have extreme complexes about yourself, your surname, your identity and your people religion. Go heal your complexes somewhere else, weirdo.

1. It is common knowledge that there are more blonde albanians than south slavs by ratio, serbs are not more northern, they came from south Russia into Europe a long time after albanians, albanians are indo european. Albanian blonde genes have nothing to do with Serbs but serb blonde genes may have come from albanians in addition to Germans of course but you are too thick to understand this

2. You are claiming that this 0.7% haplogroup subclade is albanian only because you carry it. Leave your genes out of this discussion, it's about a haplogroup not about you. This haplogroup is found in middle east today and much more in serbs than albanians. These are the facts

3. I don't claim to be albanian, I am albanian. All my past family members were born there and only speak albanian, some of them are blonde and you seem to have problems accepting that a fair amount of albanians are blonde

4. This haplogroup we are discussing is not ilyrian, it is more common in middle east than Europe. Ilyrian can be some ev13, r1b, i1, maybe l283, the ones found in albanians and other balkan people today

5. I am the pussy boy because you don't understand a joke you utter fag? I said I am happy either way, albanian or Italian haplogroup because I understand the connection between the two

6. Kastriotis mother (not skenderbeg that's a Turkish given name) was albanian, there was Slavic influence in the balkans at the time within byzantine empire just like there was osman influence in names later on. Kastrioti didn't lose anything, he died of a disease at an old age and he is the hero and God of albanian people you utter disgrace. No one gives a shit about some pervert arab named mohamed or a jew named jesus. Kastrioti is a real hero, he defended his people with his own 2 arms

7. No albanians visit mosques, only jevg like yourself. Albanians who know their history are not muslim, only traitors and brainwashed arabs. If you want to be an Arab go to one of their many countries that they ruined, albanians are indo european ilyrians

8. Osmans took albanians land, houses, monuments etc a lot of albanians fled and left it behind. They took children by force and made everyone pay taxes. They closed down schools and banned albanian language. You are obviously not albanian, you are either a jevg who came into the country after envers regime because your family wasn't allowed earlier or not even from albania at all, just some muslim idiot trying to annoy albanians on the internet

9. Greeks were almost wiped out by osmans in Turkey as were armenians so try again, byzantine empire was much better time than osman empire for albanians. Serbs nor greeks could "wipe out" albanians nor did they attempt conquests, albanians always had strong connections with Italians. In 1912 albania was left in a far worse state than rest of Europe thanks to shit osman empire

10. J2 m205 can be found in Sweden or on the moon for all I care, it has nothing to do with albanians or ilyrians. 0.7%, get it through your head

ShpataEMadhe
23-12-19, 15:12
Just to set the record straight.
Gjergj Kastrioti (aka Skenderbeg) did not lose, he died of old age (62 years). His enemies (Ottomans), open his grave after his death and made amulets from his bones to become invincible.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

I think the guy is just trying to annoy us. Must be a serb or a turk trying to give a bad name on the Internet to us albanians like any of us actually give a shit for osmans or the religion of arabs. That is still the religion of terrorists and victims today, we should be saving the poor middle eastern people from this awful culture, not bringing it into Europe as well

Dema
23-12-19, 16:57
Eupedia administrators are the responsible for this trash posting since i reported him many times.

Just look what he writes, he has some serious psychological problems.

Kelmendasi
23-12-19, 17:34
Eupedia administrators are the responsible for this trash posting since i reported him many times.

Just look what he writes, he has some serious psychological problems.
Exactly, some of the admins here claim to be so adamant on banning those who derail threads with nonsense. But yet, this guy hasn't even been warned.

Progon
23-12-19, 17:48
It was probably present but very rare among Phoenicians and other Semitic people.

torzio
23-12-19, 19:22
I do not know why you guys bring up religion and ethnicity ... has nothing to do with Genetics or what marker you are or not

Dema
23-12-19, 20:49
1. It is common knowledge that there are more blonde albanians than south slavs by ratio, serbs are not more northern, they came from south Russia into Europe a long time after albanians, albanians are indo european. Albanian blonde genes have nothing to do with Serbs but serb blonde genes may have come from albanians in addition to Germans of course but you are too thick to understand this

Oh really it is common knowledge ?? Where, in what planet? Since i live in Croatia and i work in Tirana and Pristina i watch Croats/Bosnjaks/Serbs but also Albanians on daily bases. Where is that common knowledge??
But you still dont want to say where you live because you are hiding behind some anonymous account, and anyone can register anonymous account like you did and trash post like that.
In all threads you were posting you were corrected by other people and pointed to your mistakes. Almost everything you say is utter trash and stupidity. Stop embarrassing Albanians and ruining this thread you pathetic son of a ugly w**re.

Where did you get that Serbs are from South Russia lol? They are just as all South Slavs from region on Poland/Ukraine, from where Slavs expanded to Balkans.
They are genetically also close to Belorussians. These people are all like 500x more blond then Albanians lol.

You say Serbs are from Russia but Albanians are Indo-European ?? Dont you know that Russia is East Europe, therefore also Europe. And Slavic language is also Indo-European so same as Albanian in that regard?
How you mean Serbs are from Russia while Albanians are Indo-Europeans? Slavs are also Indo-Europeans imbecile. You learn Indo-European word but you still didn't learn what it means.
Let me help you, here you can see IE language tree and perhaps learn something - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages#/media/File:IndoEuropeanTree.svg

Albanian blond genes ? Dont make me laugh. Neither Illyrians, neither Romans and neither ancient Greeks were blond. These are northern features, like Goths, Vandals, Franks, Slavs, Normans, Vikings, Russians and so on......



2. You are claiming that this 0.7% haplogroup subclade is albanian only because you carry it. Leave your genes out of this discussion, it's about a haplogroup not about you. This haplogroup is found in middle east today and much more in serbs than albanians. These are the facts

I claim what facts say. While you dont have any facts.
Among first things that main Albanian administrator told me about my haplogroup is that its not Slavic in origin. Therefore i conclude that Serbs carrying it are most likely assimilated.
Since we find it from North to South in multiple subclades in Albanians with high TMRCA, Phoenician origin might be plausible.
Subclades in Middle East are 5000 years far away from us, so its not something recent.





3. I don't claim to be albanian, I am albanian. All my past family members were born there and only speak albanian, some of them are blonde and you seem to have problems accepting that a fair amount of albanians are blonde

You are degenerate Albanian. Disgrace for our poor nation. Albanians would probably smash your teeths and dirty mouth but you would never dare to say these shits real life, you only eat shit online because of your complexes.





4. This haplogroup we are discussing is not ilyrian, it is more common in middle east than Europe. Ilyrian can be some ev13, r1b, i1, maybe l283, the ones found in albanians and other balkan people today


Learn to spell Illyrian, imbecile. I1 is Norman, might be very well source of these blond Albanians you are claiming. Also there is quite a few R1b sublcades, i would not classify them all as Illyrian.




5. I am the pussy boy because you don't understand a joke you utter fag? I said I am happy either way, albanian or Italian haplogroup because I understand the connection between the two

Its one thing to be happy with what you would like to get and its another things what you will get. You have complexes and you said that you are insecure to test because of your Italian surname. Why else would you not enter in Albanian project? Peak of your intelligence and how you use Albanian project is to look who has Muslim surnames. Is that really the best use you can make of it ? Picking on people surnames while you dont dare to test yourself and put your surname there. Pathetic, really pathetic guy.

Who said that you will get Italian haplogroup because you have Italian surname moron? You will most likely not get neither Albanian or neither Italian haplogroup.

I said you are pussy boy because you are eating shit here about other people haplogroups while you dont dare to test at all and you are kopil (bastard) of unknown origin.



6. Kastriotis mother (not skenderbeg that's a Turkish given name) was albanian, there was Slavic influence in the balkans at the time within byzantine empire just like there was osman influence in names later on. Kastrioti didn't lose anything, he died of a disease at an old age and he is the hero and God of albanian people you utter disgrace. No one gives a shit about some pervert arab named mohamed or a jew named jesus. Kastrioti is a real hero, he defended his people with his own 2 arms

Skenderbeg is God of Albanian people ? hahahha I never heard Albanian who say these crap like you in my life.

BTW why would there be Slavic influence thru Byzantine Empire ? Byzantines were not Slavs and reason why Skenderbegs mother was Serb and his brothers and sisters had Serbian names and he was breastfed by his Serbian mother has nothing to do with Byzantine Empire you ridiculous clown. It has with fact that his father was allied with Serbs and thats why they married to strengthen relationships.



7. No albanians visit mosques, only jevg like yourself. Albanians who know their history are not muslim, only traitors and brainwashed arabs. If you want to be an Arab go to one of their many countries that they ruined, albanians are indo european ilyrians

I am not complexed as you are so to count how many Albanians visit mosques lol. People are free to visit either churches and mosques and whatever they want.
Why should i deny someone to go in church or mosque if he wants? I guess many Albanians go to mosque, its their personal thing, you should not involve into other people religion and personal things.

I told you that most of Albanians are Muslims lol. Look Albanians praying in main square and they covered Skenderbeg so he cant be visible during these days - https://www.rrokum.tv/?p=148021



8. Osmans took albanians land, houses, monuments etc a lot of albanians fled and left it behind. They took children by force and made everyone pay taxes. They closed down schools and banned albanian language. You are obviously not albanian, you are either a jevg who came into the country after envers regime because your family wasn't allowed earlier or not even from albania at all, just some muslim idiot trying to annoy albanians on the internet

The only thing that Osmans took is your mother : D and she born a kopil son as we can see by your example.



9. Greeks were almost wiped out by osmans in Turkey as were armenians so try again, byzantine empire was much better time than osman empire for albanians. Serbs nor greeks could "wipe out" albanians nor did they attempt conquests, albanians always had strong connections with Italians. In 1912 albania was left in a far worse state than rest of Europe thanks to shit osman empire

Its funny how you defend Serbs and you say they didn't attempt conquest when its known that both Serbs and Montenegrins conquested most of Albania in 1912-13 when Ottoman Empire fall down. Serbs and montenegrins captured most of north and central Albania while Greeks as i told you earlier also captured south parts.
Google Siege of Scutari, Albanians and Ottomans were fighting side by side against Serbs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Scutari_(1912%E2%80%9313)

Yes, Greeks and Serbs are victims and your friends, Ottomans and Middle Easterners are evil and enemies and Skenerbeg is your God. I got your point of view.
Anything else to add ?



10. J2 m205 can be found in Sweden or on the moon for all I care, it has nothing to do with albanians or ilyrians. 0.7%, get it through your head


J2-M205 is not found in Sweden, but its found in entire Mediterranean Sea. Percentage means nothing. As i told you Arberesh have 20% Slavic lines but not even 3 % of J2b-M241. That does not mean that I2a-CTS10228 is longer in Italy or in Albania because Arberesh have more of it. It simply means Arberesh are more Slavic influenced, and that's it. But you ignored when i told you this and started your trash talk about religion, Ottomans and rest of things. I really hope when you test that you will get some true Ottoman haplogroup. But the deal is that we will never find out about it because you are pussy boy and you will never join Albanian project.

If we go by this logic then I2a-CTS10228 is probably oldest Bakan haplogroup and true Illyrian haplogroup since it goes up to 60-70 % in Balkans, no other haplogroup reach these percentages, specifically in Hercegovina in Bosnia. Place that was known for Illyrian inhabitants. But this logic makes no sense since we know that its medieval Slavic arrival. You looking only at maps without understanding without knowing subclades, TMRCA or ancient DNA only by looking map is really retarded.



You can explode if you want but Albanians have 26 % of haplogroup J-M304 including J2b-M205, and 80 % of Albanians are Muslims. Not that it matters but i'm simply stating it since you seem to have big problem with it and trying to twist facts.

Dema
23-12-19, 21:02
I do not know why you guys bring up religion and ethnicity ... has nothing to do with Genetics or what marker you are or not


This guy is constantly making racist statements against Middle Easterners and Muslim Albanians.

Also falsely trying to represent Albanians as blond nation whos God is some half Serb from Middle Ages.
I reported him like 100x because this is not thread for this BS but seems none of the admins are reacting and they are pretending as they dont see the issue.



He lives some nordic dream where he is trying to say that Albanians are dark because of Ottoman Empire influence, when we know that Albanians are not influenced by Ottomans.


And retarded stuff like that..... As you can see

Dema
23-12-19, 22:26
I think the guy is just trying to annoy us. Must be a serb or a turk trying to give a bad name on the Internet to us albanians like any of us actually give a shit for osmans or the religion of arabs. That is still the religion of terrorists and victims today, we should be saving the poor middle eastern people from this awful culture, not bringing it into Europe as well


You are traitor trying to divide Albanians all the time by religion but also by haplogroups and physical look.
Both Christian and Muslim Albanians would tell you that you are traitor scum, i know it because i know both groups very well.


All you doing is insulting most of Albanians which are Muslims yet claiming that you are Albanian yourself. You dont know your origin and you speak broken Albanian since you were not able to formulate one sentence.
Sentence was completely wrongly formulated and its clear you dont even speak Albanian language and you dont even know Albanians.

All you trying to do is steal Albanian identity and twist it in a way so its suitable for you to represent yourself in Italy in a way you think its appropriate for you.

You are not connected with Arberesh but you didnt say how come that you have Italian surname. You are most likely some Gabel who took Albanian identity emigrate to Italy and later change it to Italian as it suits his needs.

Stop spamming this thread with your trash and with your fairy tales. Everyone knows truth, even Italians and Greeks know 100x more about Albanians so there is no need to lie and manipulate as you do.

And spare me of stories of blond Albanians and I1 Illyrian haplogroup.

ShpataEMadhe
23-12-19, 23:11
Oh really it is common knowledge ?? Where, in what planet? Since i live in Croatia and i work in Tirana and Pristina i watch Croats/Bosnjaks/Serbs but also Albanians on daily bases. Where is that common knowledge??
But you still dont want to say where you live because you are hiding behind some anonymous account, and anyone can register anonymous account like you did and trash post like that.
In all threads you were posting you were corrected by other people and pointed to your mistakes. Almost everything you say is utter trash and stupidity. Stop embarrassing Albanians and ruining this thread you pathetic son of a ugly w**re.
Where did you get that Serbs are from South Russia lol? They are just as all South Slavs from region on Poland/Ukraine, from where Slavs expanded to Balkans.
They are genetically also close to Belorussians. These people are all like 500x more blond then Albanians lol.
You say Serbs are from Russia but Albanians are Indo-European ?? Dont you know that Russia is East Europe, therefore also Europe. And Slavic language is also Indo-European so same as Albanian in that regard?
How you mean Serbs are from Russia while Albanians are Indo-Europeans? Slavs are also Indo-Europeans imbecile. You learn Indo-European word but you still didn't learn what it means.
Let me help you, here you can see IE language tree and perhaps learn something - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages#/media/File:IndoEuropeanTree.svg
Albanian blond genes ? Dont make me laugh. Neither Illyrians, neither Romans and neither ancient Greeks were blond. These are northern features, like Goths, Vandals, Franks, Slavs, Normans, Vikings, Russians and so on......
I claim what facts say. While you dont have any facts.
Among first things that main Albanian administrator told me about my haplogroup is that its not Slavic in origin. Therefore i conclude that Serbs carrying it are most likely assimilated.
Since we find it from North to South in multiple subclades in Albanians with high TMRCA, Phoenician origin might be plausible.
Subclades in Middle East are 5000 years far away from us, so its not something recent.
You are degenerate Albanian. Disgrace for our poor nation. Albanians would probably smash your teeths and dirty mouth but you would never dare to say these shits real life, you only eat shit online because of your complexes.
Learn to spell Illyrian, imbecile. I1 is Norman, might be very well source of these blond Albanians you are claiming. Also there is quite a few R1b sublcades, i would not classify them all as Illyrian.
Its one thing to be happy with what you would like to get and its another things what you will get. You have complexes and you said that you are insecure to test because of your Italian surname. Why else would you not enter in Albanian project? Peak of your intelligence and how you use Albanian project is to look who has Muslim surnames. Is that really the best use you can make of it ? Picking on people surnames while you dont dare to test yourself and put your surname there. Pathetic, really pathetic guy.
Who said that you will get Italian haplogroup because you have Italian surname moron? You will most likely not get neither Albanian or neither Italian haplogroup.
I said you are pussy boy because you are eating shit here about other people haplogroups while you dont dare to test at all and you are kopil (bastard) of unknown origin.
Skenderbeg is God of Albanian people ? hahahha I never heard Albanian who say these crap like you in my life.
BTW why would there be Slavic influence thru Byzantine Empire ? Byzantines were not Slavs and reason why Skenderbegs mother was Serb and his brothers and sisters had Serbian names and he was breastfed by his Serbian mother has nothing to do with Byzantine Empire you ridiculous clown. It has with fact that his father was allied with Serbs and thats why they married to strengthen relationships.
I am not complexed as you are so to count how many Albanians visit mosques lol. People are free to visit either churches and mosques and whatever they want.
Why should i deny someone to go in church or mosque if he wants? I guess many Albanians go to mosque, its their personal thing, you should not involve into other people religion and personal things.
I told you that most of Albanians are Muslims lol. Look Albanians praying in main square and they covered Skenderbeg so he cant be visible during these days - https://www.rrokum.tv/?p=148021
The only thing that Osmans took is your mother : D and she born a kopil son as we can see by your example.
Its funny how you defend Serbs and you say they didn't attempt conquest when its known that both Serbs and Montenegrins conquested most of Albania in 1912-13 when Ottoman Empire fall down. Serbs and montenegrins captured most of north and central Albania while Greeks as i told you earlier also captured south parts.
Google Siege of Scutari, Albanians and Ottomans were fighting side by side against Serbs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Scutari_(1912%E2%80%9313)
Yes, Greeks and Serbs are victims and your friends, Ottomans and Middle Easterners are evil and enemies and Skenerbeg is your God. I got your point of view.
Anything else to add ?
J2-M205 is not found in Sweden, but its found in entire Mediterranean Sea. Percentage means nothing. As i told you Arberesh have 20% Slavic lines but not even 3 % of J2b-M241. That does not mean that I2a-CTS10228 is longer in Italy or in Albania because Arberesh have more of it. It simply means Arberesh are more Slavic influenced, and that's it. But you ignored when i told you this and started your trash talk about religion, Ottomans and rest of things. I really hope when you test that you will get some true Ottoman haplogroup. But the deal is that we will never find out about it because you are pussy boy and you will never join Albanian project.
If we go by this logic then I2a-CTS10228 is probably oldest Bakan haplogroup and true Illyrian haplogroup since it goes up to 60-70 % in Balkans, no other haplogroup reach these percentages, specifically in Hercegovina in Bosnia. Place that was known for Illyrian inhibitors. But this logic makes no sense since we know that its medieval Slavic arrival. You looking only at maps without understanding without knowing subclades, TMRCA or ancient DNA only by looking map is really retarded.
You can explode if you want but Albanians have 26 % of haplogroup J-M304 including J2b-M205, and 80 % of Albanians are Muslims. Not that it matters but i'm simply stating it since you seem to have big problem with it and trying to twist facts.

Confirmed serb *****, of course you would live in croatia thanks for confirming

Serbs have less blonde hair ratio than albanians. They have much less r1a than north/west slavs you stupid **** also much less German dna like north/west slavs likes poles which is why a lot of North slavs have blonde hair, their i2a2 is most prominent and probably comes from Starcevo–Koros–Cris culture:

"Ancient DNA tests have shown that Starčevo people had fair skin, brown eyes and dark hair"

Illyrians definitely had blonde, they mixed with celts and northern europeans early on:

"When the Celts came to the Balkans in the 3rd century B.C. some of the Illyrian tribes mixed with them. In the same century, the Illyrian King Agron from the Ardaei tribe organised the first Illyrian state."

I "say this shit" all day to all albanians I know, they love to take the piss out of muslims too because it is a joke culture as are you, you stupid piece of shit how dare you speak bad about kastrioti

You are clearly a jevg trying to annoy albanians, 80% of albanians have no religion and 100% of albanians call 100% blooded albanian Kastrioti as their one and only hero, we keep statues and flags in our homes meanwhile you read about a pervert named mohamed

J2b m205 is not j2b l283, it is middle eastern and also found in serbians

ShpataEMadhe
23-12-19, 23:16
You are traitor trying to divide Albanians all the time by religion but also by haplogroups and physical look.
Both Christian and Muslim Albanians would tell you that you are traitor scum, i know it because i know both groups very well.
All you doing is insulting most of Albanians which are Muslims yet claiming that you are Albanian yourself. You dont know your origin and you speak broken Albanian since you were not able to formulate one sentence.
Sentence was completely wrongly formulated and its clear you dont even speak Albanian language and you dont even know Albanians.
All you trying to do is steal Albanian identity and twist it in a way so its suitable for you to represent yourself in Italy in a way you think its appropriate for you.
You are not connected with Arberesh but you didnt say how come that you have Italian surname. You are most likely some Gabel who took Albanian identity emigrate to Italy and later change it to Italian as it suits his needs.
Stop spamming this thread with your trash and with your fairy tales. Everyone knows truth, even Italians and Greeks know 100x more about Albanians so there is no need to lie and manipulate as you do.
And spare me of stories of blond Albanians and I1 Illyrian haplogroup.

HA! I am the traitor, says the jevg who hates Kastrioti, our god

You call me a gabel, with a blonde communist exclusively albanian speaking grandad?

You are the jevg, the jevg who supports osman arab culture who tried to erase albanian language and made the country poor. Get back on your knees and pray to the pervert mohamed you traitor

Dema
24-12-19, 00:07
Hahahaha i wish you would be right once so i dont have material to reply but with each reply your stupidity annoys me so much that i have to reply.




Confirmed serb *****, of course you would live in croatia thanks for confirming

Yes i live in Croatia, geographically most beautiful country in the world. Even tho i dont mention it online, i dont have why. I am Albanian not Croat.
Most of old members from project know my identity and i even meet some of them in real life, i hide nothing, unlike you.
People usually tell me that i am very good example for Albanians. I doubt anyone would tell you that.

However, whats wrong with living in Croatia, its all top destinations where Illyrians lived. Also its on Mediterranean Sea, so my paternal line is present in these waters for at least 4000 - 5000 years.



Serbs have less blonde hair ratio than albanians. They have much less r1a than north/east slavs like poles you stupid **** also much less German dna like north/east slavs which is why a lot of North slavs have blonde hair, their i2a2 is most prominent and probably comes from Starcevo–Koros–Cris culture:

Dont you teach me about Serbs and how they look moron, i know them my entire life.

Their I2 is in wast majority I2a1-CTS10228 not I2a2 as you said. It arrived from Poland/Ukraine, also it has ancient DNA there, its young haplogroup with most diversity in Poland and common ancestor that lived 3800 years ago.
Serbs/Croats/Bosnjaks having more I2a1 is just a result of medieval expansion. They mostly fall in subclades with TMRCA 1600-1800 years. Meaning that majority of them expanded to these numbers after reaching Balkan. When original Slavs arrived they probably had more R1a. Slovens who are also South Slavs and share same language and have same Slavic haplogroups like Serbs have more R1a then I2a. It means that Croats/Bosnjaks/Serbs probably got majority of their I2a1 percentage somewhere around Bosnia where it peaks about 70 %, while Slovens are a bit further and they did not. Dinaric Alps and Bosnia were probably center of Slavic I2a tribes and there they had highest expansion reaching up to 60 %.



"Ancient DNA tests have shown that Starčevo people had fair skin, brown eyes and dark hair"

Wrong again.
Starcevo was tested, neither Albanians and neither Serbs have anything with them. Lets assume they are "older people".



Illyrians definitely had blonde, they mixed with celts and northern europeans early on:

"When the Celts came to the Balkans in the 3rd century B.C. some of the Illyrian tribes mixed with them. In the same century, the Illyrian King Agron from the Ardaei tribe organised the first Illyrian state."

Illyrians for sure did not have blonds, maybe some skinsick or Albino person. They were Mediterranean population, similar to Greeks and Romans.
For them being blond was exotic. You live in your pathetic dreams.

Trying to say that Illyrians were blond because they mixed with Celts is really ridiculous. Even if that would be true it still means its not Illyrian neither Mediterranean genetics but they mixed with north population to get these features.



I "say this shit" all day to all albanians I know, they love to take the piss out of muslims too because it is a joke culture as are you, you stupid piece of shit how dare you speak bad about kastrioti

No Albanian would ever say things you say except some mentally retarded. What i said about your half-serb God ? You should know his family since you cherish him so much, his family names like Stanisha Vojislava Jelena Vlajka are all ultra Serb names and he was breastfed by his Serb mother named Vojislava which is obvious Slavic and Serbian orientated name.



You are clearly a jevg trying to annoy albanians, 80% of albanians have no religion and 100% of albanians call 100% blooded albanian Kastrioti as their one and only hero, we carry statues and flags in our homes meanwhile you read about a pervert named mohamed

You have mental issues. Albanians are religious people. Mostly Muslim with Christian minority. Your half-Serb mini God is irrelevant. You use him only so you can get deeper in Italian ass and represent yourself as defender of Christianity just as Skenderbegs title was, while 80 % of your people are Muslim. haha You are stuck in shitty position. But i dont see why are you worrying since Albanian Muslims and Christians always colived in peace as i said.





J2b m205 is not j2b l283, it is middle eastern and also found in serbians

All Albanian haplogroups are found in Serbs. Like 30 % of E-v13 found in Serbs and Montenegrin Slavs. Even in subclades that we cant find in Albanians, like J2b-L283>PH1602 which is closer to Illyrian ancient sample in Dalmatia then Albanian J2b-L283 is. Seems your tiny brain cant comprehend this information.

J2b-M205 had empires like Akkadian one 2500 BCE, while Romans managed to get similar empires only 2500 years later.


Here you can see in Paris museum victory stele of Akkadian Empire how their soldiers escort prisoners of war.
Similar victory stale Romans had, where you can see how they escort captured Illyrians and others as prisoners of war but 2700 years later, they mostly copied earlier Mesopotamian civilizations:



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Prisoners_on_the_victory_stele_of_an_Akkadian_king _circa_2300_BCE_Louvre_Museum_Sb_3.jpg

Dema
24-12-19, 00:12
HA! I am the traitor, says the jevg who hates Kastrioti, our god

You call me a gabel, with a blonde communist exclusively albanian speaking grandad?

You are the jevg, the jevg who supports osman arab culture who tried to erase albanian language and made the country poor. Get back on your knees and pray to the pervert mohamed you traitor


You are Gabel Jevg, and you admit now that your father is communist and blond. Both Russian features.
How can he be communist and blond like Russian but then take Italian surname ? haha it just doesn't go together, nature has mistaken somewhere in your case. It explains your complexes and mental issues.


What God is Skenderbeg, why would some half-serb from Middle Ages be anyone's God, do you have mental issues?

Im telling you, communism messes up your brain. Americans also knew this, its why they are so afraid of it. Look what your family did to you. Looks like you are another brainwashed victim of communism.
Anyways, im leaving you to your stupidity since i see that you have brain infection and its probably not curable.

ShpataEMadhe
24-12-19, 01:37
Hahahaha i wish you would be right once so i dont have material to reply but with each reply your stupidity annoys me so much that i have to reply.
Yes i live in Croatia, geographically most beautiful country in the world. Even tho i dont mention it online, i dont have why. I am Albanian not Croat.
Most of old members from project know my identity and i even meet some of them in real life, i hide nothing, unlike you.
People usually tell me that i am very good example for Albanians. I doubt anyone would tell you that.
However, whats wrong with living in Croatia, its all top destinations where Illyrians lived. Also its on Mediterranean Sea, so my paternal line is present in these waters for at least 4000 - 5000 years.
Dont you teach me about Serbs and how they look moron, i know them my entire life.
Their I2 is in wast majority I2a1-CTS10228 not I2a2 as you said. It arrived from Poland/Ukraine, also it has ancient DNA there, its young haplogroup with most diversity in Poland and common ancestor that lived 3800 years ago.
Serbs/Croats/Bosnjaks having more I2a1 is just a result of medieval expansion. They mostly fall in subclades with TMRCA 1600-1800 years. Meaning that majority of them expanded to these numbers after reaching Balkan. When original Slavs arrived they probably had more R1a. Slovens who are also South Slavs and share same language and have same Slavic haplogroups like Serbs have more R1a then I2a. It means that Croats/Bosnjaks/Serbs probably got majority of their I2a1 percentage somewhere around Bosnia where it peaks about 70 %, while Slovens are a bit further and they did not. Dinaric Alps and Bosnia were probably center of Slavic I2a tribes and there they had highest expansion reaching up to 60 %.
Wrong again.
Starcevo was tested, neither Albanians and neither Serbs have anything with them. Lets assume they are "older people".
Illyrians for sure did not have blonds, maybe some skinsick or Albino person. They were Mediterranean population, similar to Greeks and Romans.
For them being blond was exotic. You live in your pathetic dreams.
Trying to say that Illyrians were blond because they mixed with Celts is really ridiculous. Even if that would be true it still means its not Illyrian neither Mediterranean genetics but they mixed with north population to get these features.
No Albanian would ever say things you say except some mentally retarded. What i said about your half-serb God ? You should know his family since you cherish him so much, his family names like Stanisha Vojislava Jelena Vlajka are all ultra Serb names and he was breastfed by his Serb mother named Vojislava which is obvious Slavic and Serbian orientated name.
You have mental issues. Albanians are religious people. Mostly Muslim with Christian minority. Your half-Serb mini God is irrelevant. You use him only so you can get deeper in Italian ass and represent yourself as defender of Christianity just as Skenderbegs title was, while 80 % of your people are Muslim. haha You are stuck in shitty position. But i dont see why are you worrying since Albanian Muslims and Christians always colived in peace as i said.
All Albanian haplogroups are found in Serbs. Like 30 % of E-v13 found in Serbs and Montenegrin Slavs. Even in subclades that we cant find in Albanians, like J2b-L283>PH1602 which is closer to Illyrian ancient sample in Dalmatia then Albanian J2b-L283 is. Seems your tiny brain cant comprehend this information.
J2b-M205 had empires like Akkadian one 2500 BCE, while Romans managed to get similar empires only 2500 years later.
Here you can see in Paris museum victory stele of Akkadian Empire how their soldiers escort prisoners of war.
Similar victory stale Romans had, where you can see how they escort captured Illyrians and others as prisoners of war but 2700 years later, they mostly copied earlier Mesopotamian civilizations:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Prisoners_on_the_victory_stele_of_an_Akkadian_king _circa_2300_BCE_Louvre_Museum_Sb_3.jpg

You are clearly a serb trying to annoy albanians or a jevg muslim who hates 100% albanian hero Kastrioti, there is no albanian in the world who speaks like you only a few jevg or turks

I2a1 is almost non existant in poles and north slavs you utter clown, they have i1 and R1b and triple r1a over Serbs. That's why poles can be blonde, they have a lot of northern European genes (i1 and R1b), Serbs have very little. Albanians have more blondes than Serbs by ratio

Starcevo had a lot of I2a1 and inhabited the area that Serbs do today this is why South slavs have this and others above do not, learn your history

Kastrioti was 100% albanian:

"Johann Georg von Hahn (1811–1869), an Austrian expert in Albanian studies, had several theses on the genealogy of Albanian noble families in Albanesische Studien (1854). In Reise durch die Gebiete von Drin und Wardar (1867/69), he theorized that if one of Vrana Konti's descendants held the title "Marchese di Tripalda", that Vrana and Voisava Tripalda were related by blood."

Her surname was tripalda which is albanian. Like I said names were influenced by slavs at the time too because they became part of byzantine. As proof for your stupidity Gjegj Arianiti also had a daughter named Vojsava and he had an Albanian and Italian wife:

"With the death of his first wife, Gjergj married Pietrina Francone, an Italian aristocrat. His two wives bore him ten children, three of which were boys.[5]
The first was called Lady Andronica (also known as Donika), the second Lady Voisava, the third Lady Chiranna, the fourth Lady Helena, the fifth Lady Despina, the sixth Lady Angelina, the seventh Lady Comita and the eighth Lady Catherine."

As you can see albanians had different names before osman so another point for me

Now as for religion, albanians don't give a shit for it, very very few visit mosques. I don't care about a pervert arab nor a peasant jew, they have nothing to do with God nor ilyrian history. Any albanian who cares about islam TODAY is the traitor the traitor who forgets that these osman tried to block albanian language and made the country poor, so try again

Ilyrians for sure had blondes, they mixed with celts early on, before even having any sort of state/civilisation, this could be why there is a lot of r1b, i1 and North european i2a2 present today

All albanian haplogroups are found in Serbs yes at smaller ratio than albanians but serbs have MUCH more j2b m205 than albanians therefore it is foreign

Dema
24-12-19, 02:52
You are clearly a serb trying to annoy albanians or a jevg muslim who hates 100% albanian hero Kastrioti, there is no albanian in the world who speaks like you only a few jevg or turks


You are 100 % I2a1 Serb. All this crap about blond Albanians and Illyrian I1 and I2a1 and praising of communism while hating Albanian Muslims pretty much tells everything about you.
I dont hate Skenderbeg, i dont hate anyone. I dont have reason to hate anyone. Skenderbeg is irrelevant to me.

In this thread many pages back you can read Serb guy "Bachus" saying all same things like you about Northern blond Serbs, praising I1 and I2 haplogroup and blond people and all same things.
You are same as this Bachus just Albanian version.




I2a1 is almost non existant in poles and north slavs you utter clown, they have i1 and R1b and triple r1a over Serbs. That's why poles can be blonde, they have a lot of northern European genes (i1 and R1b), Serbs have very little. Albanians have more blondes than Serbs by ratio

I2a1 has highest diversity in Poland and Ukraine, There is probably more I2a1-CTS10228 Russians then all Balkan I2a together, no matter that it goes 60 % in Balkan. Russia is very big and with small percentages they can achieve high numbers. Your argument that Poles are blond because of German influence is too stupid.





Starcevo had a lot of I2a1 and inhabited the area that Serbs do today this is why South slavs have this and others above do not, learn your history

Serbian I2a-CTS10228 has nothing with Starcevo I2a. And why are you lying that Starcevo had a lot of I2a1. There was maybe one sample and it could be Sardinian I2a1 not CTS10228 for sure. Where do you get these lies ???




Kastrioti was 100% albanian:

He was half Serb half Albanian, while you are fully Serb.
Their Slavo-Serbic names didnt fall from the sky. They got these names because of their Serb mother. No matter the exhibitions you pull your mini God was half-Serb : D




Ilyrians for sure had blondes, they mixed with celts early on, before even having any sort of state/civilisation, this could be why there is a lot of r1b, i1 and North european i2a2 present today

Albanian R1b is not Celtic where did you pull this out? xD also Albanian I1 is in most cases very modern, like Norman or so...




All albanian haplogroups are found in Serbs yes at smaller ratio than albanians but serbs have MUCH more j2b m205 than albanians therefore it is foreign

Not really,

-J2b2-PH1602 is none existed among Albanians but its found in Serbs and its closer to Illyrian ancient sample in Dalmatia then any Albanian is.
-E-v13 splits into two major clades CTS5856 and PH1204, Albanians are mostly CTS5856, while we find PH1204 in Serbs and Montenegrins because of Vasojevici clan which has probably Albanian origin but since its slavicised in Montenegro this haplogroup cannot be find among Albanians. We have only one sample falling in this haplogroup.
-Then R1b-Z2705* Serb samples that cant be find in Albanians clades.
You dont know what bottleneck is.

So i just gave you proofs and examples of main 3 Albanian haplogroups and how they were probably Illyrian but dont exist among Albanians today but we find them in Montenegrin Slavs and Serbs.
So similar like J2-M205, just J2-M205 Serbs have only in one subclade that they assimilated in Monenegro, while Albanians have in multiple subclades because its old in Albanians.

Dema
24-12-19, 10:18
I2a1 is almost non existant in poles and north slavs you utter clown, they have i1 and R1b and triple r1a over Serbs. That's why poles can be blonde, they have a lot of northern European genes (i1 and R1b), Serbs have very little. Albanians have more blondes than Serbs by ratio

Starcevo had a lot of I2a1 and inhabited the area that Serbs do today this is why South slavs have this and others above do not, learn your history


So you are saying now that Serbian I2a1 is almost non existent in Polish and Ukraine people ? Also you say that Serbian I2a1 is from Starcevo and that they are present in Balkan since Neolithic and its not Slavic arrival?

So that is reason why there is more I2a1 in Serbia and Balkan then in Poland and Ukraine by percentage ????
Answer to me where did you get that Starcevo had a lot of I2a1, you lying little worm. You are some I2a1 Serb, we already had Serbs pretending that they are Albanian, you are not the first. Everyone knows me and they know i am not fake while you are 100 % fake and most of Albanians told you that you are Serb.
Starcevo had a lot of I2a1 and this is reason why Serbs have it, and i should learn my history ?

This imbecile is some I2a1 Serb trölling entire time....



Also this moron send me some messages in Albanian language in private, its clear that idiot is using google translator lol. He cant formulate one normal sentence.

Dema
24-12-19, 11:30
Is it possible that moderators clean this thread of this imbecile trash. Also all posts where he insults other nations, religions and where he makes racist insults towards others.

I mean this is not thread for this shit and this guy is obviously not Albanian since no one knows him and he is not part of Albanian DNA project.


He is fake person trölling entire time, please just read what this imbecile writes

Yaan
24-12-19, 12:11
Yes, there needs to be done something

ShpataEMadhe
24-12-19, 13:14
You are 100 % I2a1 Serb. All this crap about blond Albanians and Illyrian I1 and I2a1 and praising of communism while hating Albanian Muslims pretty much tells everything about you.
I dont hate Skenderbeg, i dont hate anyone. I dont have reason to hate anyone. Skenderbeg is irrelevant to me.
In this thread many pages back you can read Serb guy "Bachus" saying all same things like you about Northern blond Serbs, praising I1 and I2 haplogroup and blond people and all same things.
You are same as this Bachus just Albanian version.
I2a1 has highest diversity in Poland and Ukraine, There is probably more I2a1-CTS10228 Russians then all Balkan I2a together, no matter that it goes 60 % in Balkan. Russia is very big and with small percentages they can achieve high numbers. Your argument that Poles are blond because of German influence is too stupid.
Serbian I2a-CTS10228 has nothing with Starcevo I2a. And why are you lying that Starcevo had a lot of I2a1. There was maybe one sample and it could be Sardinian I2a1 not CTS10228 for sure. Where do you get these lies ???
He was half Serb half Albanian, while you are fully Serb.
Their Slavo-Serbic names didnt fall from the sky. They got these names because of their Serb mother. No matter the exhibitions you pull your mini God was half-Serb : D
Albanian R1b is not Celtic where did you pull this out? xD also Albanian I1 is in most cases very modern, like Norman or so...
Not really,
-J2b2-PH1602 is none existed among Albanians but its found in Serbs and its closer to Illyrian ancient sample in Dalmatia then any Albanian is.
-E-v13 splits into two major clades CTS5856 and PH1204, Albanians are mostly CTS5856, while we find PH1204 in Serbs and Montenegrins because of Vasojevici clan which has probably Albanian origin but since its slavicised in Montenegro this haplogroup cannot be find among Albanians. We have only one sample falling in this haplogroup.
-Then R1b-Z2705* Serb samples that cant be find in Albanians clades.
You dont know what bottleneck is.
So i just gave you proofs and examples of main 3 Albanian haplogroups and how they were probably Illyrian but dont exist among Albanians today but we find them in Montenegrin Slavs and Serbs.
So similar like J2-M205, just J2-M205 Serbs have only in one subclade that they assimilated in Monenegro, while Albanians have in multiple subclades because its old in Albanians.

You thick turd, you carry a middle eastern and Serb haplogroup and are annoying albanians. Of course Kastrioti is irrelevant to you because you aren't albanian, just some jevg on the internet. I just gave you proof with Arianiti that vojsava was a common albanian girl name at the time, he had an Albanian and Italian wife, not Serb. This argument is already over, I won. By you shit logic names cannot be influenced by other people yet why do your ugly ass family have osman arab names? Or do you confirm that you are a turk?

I2a1 has nothing to do with blonde, i1, i2a2, some r1b does. I2a1 is almost non existant in North slavs you stupid shit, Serbs typically look like mitrovic. They don't look like poles who have 3x r1a and more German dna
J2b2-PH1602 has never been confirmed to be ilyrian

Also for defending osmans, the worst thing to ever happen in the balkans and albania:
"In an interview by the Daily Telegraph in 1928, King Zog declared that “we are centuries behind Europe in civilization… It is my determination to civilize my people and make them as far as possible adopt Western habits and customs” (cited in Fischer, 1995 : 22). During his rule, Albania adopted the civil, penal and commerce legal codes of European countries, a central bank was established, a land reform was attempted, many public works were accomplished throughout the country a system of primary and secondary schools covered nearly all the country, foreign instructors were brought in to train a modern army, and efforts were made to change the traditional ways of living and to introduce Western modernity in education and cultural spheres.
Nevertheless, the costs of these reforms made Zog more and more dependent on Italy. He thought that he could take the Italian money and use it to strengthen the Albanian economy, in order to create a national unity that would deny the Italians the political control of the country (ibid. : 37). This policy succeeded until 1939, when Mussolini decided to invade the country. Despite the many failures, the regime of Zog provided Albania with a central government, the contours of a modern state, and unity for enough time to establish a strong national identification among the cultural elite, as this is demonstrated by the lively intellectual debates on the development of the country."

You can't understand my messages because you dont understand albanian and use translator to convert it, also you messaged me first you ugly rape victim. Now get back on your knees and pray to that arab pervert you fake Internet wannabe albanian

Dema
24-12-19, 14:15
Look the crap this moron writes.....

Why are you copy pasting irrelevant stupidity from internet now, and not answering what i asked? Reply rather how is Serb I2a1 not from Poland and Ukraine, and where you seen many I2a1 examples in Starcevo culture that you are connecting with Serbian I2a1?


Why is so important for you to represent Albanians as blond people and I1 and I2a1 as Illyrian and even older Starcevo culture ?

Like 5 Albanians told you that you are Serb... So far... Do you want me to quote all Albanians that told you that you are Serb there is at least 4 or 5 of them?

I am not using google translator for your Albanian but i see that you used google translator because only google formulates sentence like that. Also you were addressing me in plural.
Also you could not understand my Albanian because i have written on purpose so google translator cant help you.

This scumbag says he cares about Albanian language while he does not speak Albanian language. Also most Albanian told him that he is Serb and no one knows him and he is not in Albanian DNA project.


Eupedia moderators why is this trash being allowed

Dema
24-12-19, 15:18
,,,,



You are insulting other people look all the time calling them jevegs and so on, while you dont dare to show your photo.
Guy with nicknames "Shpataemadhe" meaning big sword, and Kastriotiblood, is afraid to test. And is afraid to show his own photo and is afraid to show his family photo.


My parents look ultra Albanian and i have earliest photo from my family from years 1950s. They all look ultra Albanian. I show my family and my foto 100x on forums because i dont have complexes. You are insulting other people by look while you have a brain of a size of peanut. If you are so brave to insult other people haplogroups and looks then why are you afraid to test and to show your own foto or your family.

Because its you who is Jewg and fake Albanian. That is the reason. Pathetic guy. Show photo if you have balls like to throw insults online, classic pussy boy.

Dibran
25-12-19, 16:26
......

You’ve been reported several times. It’s likely matter of time before you are permanently banned. Then you’ll likely create another sock puppet account to annoy everyone with the lack of understanding in genetics you clearly demonstrate daily since your joining.

I don’t have the time to address every single point of ignorance you spewed about haplogroups. However on the matter of I2a1, you really know nothing. You demonstrate how much of nothing you know by the simple fact that you can’t distinguish between ancient I2a1(some 30000 years old) and modern I2a1b-Y3120( a subclade whose descendants all go back to only one man between 100BC-100AD).

furthermore, Y3120 makes up nearly 100 percent of all modern I2a1 cases in the Balkans and entirety of Eastern Europe. Additionally, Y3120 has far more diversity in Poland, Ukraine, Belarus and Russia than its does in Soithern Slavs. It is diversity, not frequency, that indicated likeliness of origin based on the grounds of diversity indicated a diverse pool of progeny that endured.

whereas in the south it is owed to bottlenecks and founder effects from one or a few men no earlier than the Middle Ages. There is a gap of millennia between starcevo and Y3120. The earliest ancestor of Y3120 was only found in Motala, and his direct parent around France.

It was likely already incorporated into proto slavs long before the migration and sometime in the mid to late Iron Age.

your correlation with haplogroups and features are also a demonstration of how very little(if that) you actually know.

you have yet to test, yet to share your Ydna, and have no participation in the Albanian Bloodlines project. You’re likely not Albanian. If you are though, you’re obviously afraid and insecure to find out you may belong to the very haplogroups you claim to act educated about with regards to their origins.

Scientists know far more on these matters than you do. So don’t expect your basement dwelling “knowledge” on the matter to sway people Whose qualifications far supersede yours.

if you go back far enough no Ydna has anything to do with any ethnicity or culture. So, referencing starcrvo just shows your lack of understanding.

Dema
30-12-19, 21:12
Some of these Romanian/Albanian/Serbian trölls really need to get a life. Its just few outcasts but still they are annoying with their stupidity, everything they say is wrong and they are always proven to be wrong by facts but they still believe they are right, like some zombies.


Luckily the brainless guy was banned but his slime is left all over the thread. Last 5 pages of this thread should be sent into some Balkan Wars or whatever thread. Cant believe the amount of trash some of these brainless creatures can spew..

Dema
31-12-19, 11:55
Imagine the brain of this guy. He attacks me that there is more J2b-M241 then J2b-M205 Albanians, but when i point him to the fact that there is more J2a-M410 in Italy, Greece and South Albania, J2b-M241 is more common only in North Albania then he says nothing.

Then i show him J2-M205 ancient DNA trying to teach him to take ancient DNA into consideration also but then he says:

"These are only dots on maps, who knows where this tribe lived". Basically refusing to take ancient DNA into consideration.

But then i point him out that there is way more I2a1-CTS10228 in Arberesh then J2-M241, then he says I2a1 was found in many samples in Starcevo culture in Serbia and north Slavs dont have I2a1 and Serbian I2a1 is from Starcevo culture xDDDD


Interestingly, all the suddenly he understands ancient DNA and its not irrelevant anymore and its not "dots on map".

Also not to mention as Dibran has also pointed out that starcevo had 1 out of 14 samples that were I2a1, and its basal clade I2a1-PF3581 formed 21300 ybp, TMRCA 18400 ybp, and not I2a1-Y3120 formed 3800 ybp, TMRCA 2100 which is 99 % of Balkan I2a1. There is probably 18 000 years distance with them and this Starcevo ancient sample.

Which basically means that 60 % of Muslim Bosnjaks, 40 % of Croats, 30 % of Serbs, 20 % Slovens, share same common ancestor within 2100 years with many Ukrainians, Polaks, Slovaks and Russians.
Also going by diversity its obvious that Polaks and Ukrainians have way more diversity then Balkan does. And there is also ancient DNA found.

And this insulting without understanding anything, just strait disrespect is really low and childish. I understand that some of them are immature and they are still developing into personalities, i was also young but i never displayed such arrogance and behavior. It is simply not a way to do it properly.

Mercurial
01-01-20, 14:46
Well this was cancerous to read through x) I wish all my cousins a happy new year :D I hope there will be no more value based assertions with regards to dominance of haplogroups or ethnic peoples.

My two cents on this whole mess: J2b-M205 is 99% of middle eastern origin. If the TMRCA is correct with regards to some of it's subcalades, the arriving ancestor might have assimilated in either: Albanian, Greek, Latin or Slavic population at the time. It is neither Greek, Albanian, Latin nor Slavic (Serbian) in origin. Dema seems to be certain that Vlachs (especially Kriči tribe) in areas around Montenegro are actually members of Albanian speaking population at the time. This hypothesis is most probable. However, I would really like someone who is quite knowledgeable on topics of all Vlachs in south-east Europe to give his perspective on this. Why would someone in the 15th century call Albanian population that became slavicized Vlach when it was already an established identity (either an Albanian or Slavic)?

Also some thoughts on phenotypes of ancient European population. I think whole of Europe, especially before bronze age was 99% blonde. During the bronze age, due to some intermixing, I think mostly the tint of blonde was starting to shift to darker. Even later accounts of Roman kings' hair colour give us as far as I can remember from reading around 50% blonde or dark blonde hair. Blonde hair genes, while recessive, were definitely still dominant even in the south of Europe around the beginning of the first millennium.

Random interesting thing about hair my hair colour: Both my parents and four of my grandparents have pitch black hair, and have had since birth. I was born with brownish hair that turned into blonde in the sun, and up until 6 years old it was mostly blonde and red, and later developed into pitch black, and is now in my 30's getting lighter again... My sister had like super light blonde hair up until 10-12 years, and then she turned brownish with some blonde strains.

Trojet
10-01-20, 14:32
Since there are so many subclades discovered for J2b-M205 since first analysed four years ago, I recently analysed the BAM file of Roman era York gladiator (3DRIF-26) (https://j2-m172.info/2016/01/exogenous-roman-era-york-3drif-26-is-j2b1-m205-and-likely-middle-eastener/), who had autosomal affinities of a Middle Easterner. He is PF7321+ and negative on SNPs that were covered for every current J-PF7321 subclade, including negative on the Private SNPs of the Ukrainian J-PF7321*, except for CTS1969 which has no reads. So he is at J-PF7321* or J-CTS1969* in case CTS1969+
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

Below are some important SNP calls:

PF7321 2T+
Y3163 1G+
Y101509 2A-
YP51 1C-
CTS1969 ?? (no reads)
Y45447 2T-
Y27394 2G-
BY88216 2G-
CTS10179 2T-
Y22521 1T-
FT45285 1G-
Y134194 1G-
Y134202 1G-
FT45279 2T-

Dema
19-01-20, 16:01
Since there are so many subclades discovered for J2b-M205 since first analysed four years ago, I recently analysed the BAM file of Roman era York gladiator (3DRIF-26) (https://j2-m172.info/2016/01/exogenous-roman-era-york-3drif-26-is-j2b1-m205-and-likely-middle-eastener/), who had autosomal affinities of a Middle Easterner. He is PF7321+ and negative on SNPs that were covered for every current J-PF7321 subclade, including negative on the Private SNPs of the Ukrainian J-PF7321*, except for CTS1969 which has no reads. So he is at J-PF7321* or J-CTS1969* in case CTS1969+
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

Below are some important SNP calls:

PF7321 2T+
Y3163 1G+
Y101509 2A-
YP51 1C-
CTS1969 ?? (no reads)
Y45447 2T-
Y27394 2G-
BY88216 2G-
CTS10179 2T-
Y22521 1T-
FT45285 1G-
Y134194 1G-
Y134202 1G-
FT45279 2T-


Too bad that he has no read on somewhat important SNP CTS1969. However this confirmed that gladiator is M205+ and PF7321+ and so far not closer to any other branch downstream.
In contrast as it was believed before that our Ukraine sample is closer to Roman gladiator. I think Chris has mentioned this in his article long ago.

Trojet, since you have private SNPs of our Ukraine sample can you check him against Roman sample found in recent Roman study : Sample R1283 (ftp://ftp.sra.ebi.ac.uk/vol1/run/ERR355/ERR3555046/R1283.bam), 771-974 CE.


There is slim chance but anything is possible. He expressed this wish here : https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34743-J2b1-M205-introduced-to-Eupedia/page15?p=590294&viewfull=1#post590294

Mich Glitch
19-01-20, 16:24
Let me remind my privates SNPs:

Vendor Name hg19 hg38 Reference Derived Q Qual Reads
BigY700 FT73186 3500997 3632956 C G 100 Best 19 - 0
BigY700 FT73233 4716019 4847978 A C 100 Best 5 - 0
BigY700 FT73248 5023098 5155057 G A 100 Best 19 - 0
BigY700 FT73253 5076255 5208214 C T 100 Best 19 - 0
BigY700 FT73264 5327319 5459278 G A 100 Best 11 - 0
BigY700 FT73266 5371065 5503024 C G 100 Best 19 - 0
BigY700 FT73270 5470569 5602528 C T 100 Best 16 - 0
BigY700 Y38687 6847413 6979372 A G 100 Best 27 A 2
BigY700 Y38711 6895756 7027715 A C 100 Best 12 - 0
BigY700 Y38713 6896130 7028089 A G 100 Best 25 A 2
BigY700 Y170579 7301315 7433274 C T 100 Best 19 - 0
BigY700 Y39000 7571509 7703468 T A 100 Best 28 T 1
BigY700 Y39072 7706239 7838198 G T 100 Best 25 G 1
BigY700 Y170690 8062232 8194191 T A 100 Best 22 - 0
BigY700 Y39355 8197067 8329026 G A 100 Best 29 G 1
BigY700 Y39369 8217800 8349759 C G 100 Best 15 - 0
BigY700 Y170823 8693060 8825019 C T 100 Best 26 C 1
BigY700 Y170673 13986294 11865588 T A 100 Best 23 - 0
BigY700 Y40427 14308755 12188049 C T 100 Best 11 - 0
BigY700 Y40428 14308756 12188050 G T 100 Best 11 - 0
BigY700 Y40429 14308757 12188051 T G 100 Best 11 - 0
BigY700 Y40670 14813725 12701796 A G 100 Best 25 - 0
BigY700 Y40872 15204261 13092347 T C 100 Best 23 - 0
BigY700 Y40891 15250380 13138466 A G 100 Best 24 A 1
BigY700 Y170751 15370287 13258407 G C 100 Best 28 - 0
BigY700 Y40953 15371455 13259575 C G 100 Best 27 - 0
BigY700 Y41014 15502872 13390992 G T 100 Best 25 G 1
BigY700 Y41808 17031211 14919331 G C 100 Best 18 - 0
BigY700 Y42016 17422876 15310996 T C 100 Best 20 - 0
BigY700 Y170827 17440656 15328776 A G 100 Best 16 A 1
BigY700 18001131 15889251 C G 100 Best 17 - 0
BigY700 Y170674 18154415 16042535 G T 100 Best 17 - 0
BigY700 Y42596 18643236 16531356 A G 100 Best 27 - 0
BigY700 Y42740 18909248 16797368 C G 100 Best 19 C 1
BigY700 Y42756 18936140 16824260 C T 100 Best 28 C 1
BigY700 Y42902 19187078 17075198 C T 100 Best 18 C 1
BigY700 Y170608 21283280 19121394 C T 100 Best 20 C 1
BigY700 Y43477 21676801 19514915 T C 100 Best 18 T 1
BigY700 Y43523 21772909 19611023 T G 100 Best 16 T 1
BigY700 Y43653 22020501 19858615 T C 100 Best 20 T 3
BigY700 Y43687 22096841 19934955 A G 100 Best 16 - 0
BigY700 Y43722 22180121 20018235 T A 100 Best 16 - 0
BigY700 Y43739 22200999 20039113 C T 100 Best 21 - 0
BigY700 Y43757 22216229 20054343 C T 100 Best 17 - 0
BigY700 22321602 20159716 C A 100 Best 20 - 0
BigY700 Y43918 22721203 20559317 T C 100 Best 28 - 0
BigY700 Y44029 22904559 20742673 A T 100 Best 21 A 2
BigY700 Y44233 23254636 21092750 A G 100 Best 18 - 0
BigY700 Y44455 23650943 21489057 A G 100 Best 13 - 0
BigY700 Y44541 23988658 21842511 A C 100 Best 17 - 0
BigY700 Y44584 24431820 22285673 G A 100 Best 24 - 0
BigY700 24460060 22313913 G A 100 Best 14 - 0
BigY700 Y170659 28527295 26381148 A C 100 Best 13 A 1
BigY700 Y170645 28637934 26491787 T C 100 Best 21 - 0
BigY700 Y41778 16984627 14872747 C T 99 Acceptable 22 C 1
BigY700 Y43816 22536727 20374841 T A 100 Acceptable 3 T 1
BigY700 Y170826 22782005 20620119 G T 99 Acceptable 28 G 2
BigY700 BY147406 23753002 21591116 A G 95 Acceptable 29 - 0
BigY700 Y170585 28526063 26379916 G T 99 Acceptable 24 - 0
BigY700 17826645 15714765 C A 89 Ambiguous 21 C 1
BigY700 FT73161 3012238 3144197 C T 80 Low 14 - 0
BigY700 FT73305 6070213 6202172 G A 82 Low 23 - 0
BigY700 Y43778 22298712 20136826 T A 73 Low 27 - 0
Dante FT73237 4835908 4967867 A G 100 Best 60 - 0
Dante Y174629 13535255 11379579 G A 100 Best 6 - 0
Dante Y174692 13541006 11385330 G A 100 Best 6 G 1
Dante Y181210 11643854 G T 100 Best 15 - 0
Dante FT73408/Y174630 16490486 14378606 G T 97 Acceptable G 1
Dante 22624058 20462172 T A 100 Ambiguous 2 - 0
Dante 14566015 12454215 T C 1 One reading! 1 - 0
Dante 14635624 12523693 T C 1 One reading! 1 T 2
Dante 15175901 13063987 T C 1 One reading! 1 T 1
Dante 21770397 19608511 C T 1 One reading! 1 - 0
Dante 22168195 20006309 G T 1 One reading! 1 - 0
Dante 23372818 21210932 T C 1 One reading! 1 - 0
Dante 23983309 21837162 G T 1 One reading! 1 - 0

Dema
19-01-20, 16:28
Well this was cancerous to read through x) I wish all my cousins a happy new year :D I hope there will be no more value based assertions with regards to dominance of haplogroups or ethnic peoples.

My two cents on this whole mess: J2b-M205 is 99% of middle eastern origin. If the TMRCA is correct with regards to some of it's subcalades, the arriving ancestor might have assimilated in either: Albanian, Greek, Latin or Slavic population at the time. It is neither Greek, Albanian, Latin nor Slavic (Serbian) in origin. Dema seems to be certain that Vlachs (especially Kriči tribe) in areas around Montenegro are actually members of Albanian speaking population at the time. This hypothesis is most probable. However, I would really like someone who is quite knowledgeable on topics of all Vlachs in south-east Europe to give his perspective on this. Why would someone in the 15th century call Albanian population that became slavicized Vlach when it was already an established identity (either an Albanian or Slavic)?

Also some thoughts on phenotypes of ancient European population. I think whole of Europe, especially before bronze age was 99% blonde. During the bronze age, due to some intermixing, I think mostly the tint of blonde was starting to shift to darker. Even later accounts of Roman kings' hair colour give us as far as I can remember from reading around 50% blonde or dark blonde hair. Blonde hair genes, while recessive, were definitely still dominant even in the south of Europe around the beginning of the first millennium.

Random interesting thing about hair my hair colour: Both my parents and four of my grandparents have pitch black hair, and have had since birth. I was born with brownish hair that turned into blonde in the sun, and up until 6 years old it was mostly blonde and red, and later developed into pitch black, and is now in my 30's getting lighter again... My sister had like super light blonde hair up until 10-12 years, and then she turned brownish with some blonde strains.


Kriçi were most likely Albanian language speakers. Being a native highland Montenegrin tribe they were probably not distinguishable from Albanian highland tribes. Their autosomal from tribal time 800 years ago was probably 100 % Southeast Europe, or extremely close to it. Which would be very similar to Albanian autosomal.

Since we could not find J2-M205 among Albanians in the beginning i also believed in Vlach theory. I simply believed that Kriçi were Latin speakers or that they at least considered themselves Vlach or Aromun. However things are not always as they seem and truth seems to be somewhat different. I was simply forced to completely abandon Vlach theory because after further analysis and gathering of proofs like Bosch et al results (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16759179)which tested enormous number of Albanian Vlachs, Romanian Vlachs, Macedonian Vlachs, Aromuns, Romanians and specifically targeted Vlach and Aromun population. And the only J2-M205 Vlach sample in that entire study is from Albania, and his closest relatives are among Albanians in Gjirokaster, Greeks in Greece and Italians in Sicily. He has no connection to Vlachs whatsoever. And J2-M205 is virtually none existed among Vlachs.

So not only that Kriçi were not a Vlach tribe, but J2-M205 is none existent in Vlachs and Aromuns. Furthermore check statistics of Albanian project on www.gjenetika.com (http://www.gjenetika.com), there are 7 Vllah results but again same as in Bosch et al, we cannot find M205 among Vlachs, but even these few samples in various branches that we have, they are all Albanian.

J2-M205>Y22059, given by all facts and closest relatives and their disperse over Mediterranean Sea gives strong signal of being of Phoenician or Roman time expansion. We know that we were either Phoenician and Roman 2500 - 2000 years ago, but our tribal MRCA that lived 1000 ybp lost these memories long ago. His descendants considered themselves natives and they probably integrated with local population wich in these territories of Montenegro were clearly albanophone prior to slavicisation.

Albanian language was unknown prior to 10 century CE, but that does not mean it was not present before. Since Kriçi were Montenegrin native highland tribe of Durmitor mountains, i dont see what else could they be?

Latin was known language and if they spoken Latin that would be known, but fact that they were recorded as natives of unknown language pretty much pinpoints to Albanians.

Mich Glitch
19-01-20, 16:29
BTW,

I've asked the YFull guys. The quality of the R1283 doesn't allow to put in in the tree.

But certainly you can check it manually.

Mich Glitch
19-01-20, 16:36
One Molgen.org user already checked my samples.
Here is staistics.

He used 75 SNPs to check.
26 in R1283 were read.
49 are not read at all.
All read SNPs for R1283 are with reference values.

I.e. there is not any new branch for me and R1283.

*** But I am still the closest match for this London gladiator.

Mich Glitch
19-01-20, 16:38
TMRCA is not less than 3000 ybp.

Mich Glitch
19-01-20, 16:42
Oh, sorry!

My mistake.

This is the results for Mediaval Roman sample. Not for gladiator.

Dema
20-01-20, 13:48
One Molgen.org user already checked my samples.
Here is staistics.

He used 75 SNPs to check.
26 in R1283 were read.
49 are not read at all.
All read SNPs for R1283 are with reference values.

I.e. there is not any new branch for me and R1283.

*** But I am still the closest match for this London gladiator.




You are 5700 years away from gladiator just as everyone else under J2-M205, i think Trojet analysis just confirmed this.
So, since you were already compared to R1283 and you dont share any private SNP with him also, i would say that your line is still unknown.
Most likely Bronze Age migration from Zagros/Middle East to North Caucasus and then to northern Black Sea shores.
There is possibility that your line is also Roman expansion to Black Sea shores where Romans expanded and defeated Scythians, Sarmatians, etc.
I would say migration happened anywhere from Bronze Age to Roman time.

Dema
28-01-20, 15:02
Since some things were going on with Albanian DNA project and many samples were sadly withdrawn from project, as it looks there was a loss of about half of samples.
Also this loss of samples hardly hit haplogroup J2-M205 where our Gjirokaster cluster was sadly completely wiped out. We are left only with two J2-M205 samples in project.

Therefore i decided to post all Albanian J2-M205 samples that i managed to collect thru this time of few years of research : )
So, there is 14 samples in 5 different branches with Y22059 dominating in the north and Gjirokaster cluster dominating in the south, both of them are CTS1969+.


23andme Dema, Zall-Bastar, central Albania. J2b-M205 SNP.
23andme (probably Y22059) Gjenashaj, Shestan, Montenegro J2b-M205 SNP.

1. Haziri/Dema brotherhood Kosovo, Vulaj north Albania, Hyseni Kosovo. CTS1969+ Y22059+

2. Celo, Cabej, Ruca, Tosk (Ferri et al), Tosk (Sarno et al), Gjirokaster Albania, CTS1969+, Gjirokaster cluster

3. Gogo, Gjirokaster, Albania. 175 Bosch et al Andon Poci Aromun Albania, CTS1969 ?

4. Tirana, central Albania Albanian (Bosch et al), DYS388=12 M205+

5. Arbereshe Italia ISN59 ARB_CAL POL_AREA J-M12+ M205+

saversiplm
27-04-20, 22:57
Nothing new boys?

Dema
20-05-20, 14:21
There is some new things. Like our English-Irish-Canadian branch (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y64012/) got their distant relatives in Yemen with who they share TMRCA 2300 years before present which fits Punic Wars very good and time of Roman-Phoenician wars. But usually news arrive very slowly therefore i think some major news will arrive every 1 year in average.
For now we know much more about J2-M205 then before. What is characteristic for J2-M205 is that it has TMRCA 5900 ybp. Therefore all J2-M205 come from one man who lived 5900 years ago. Also our oldest ancient DNA found is from Jordan 4500 ybp and Lebanon 3600 ybp.

-Therefore we can assume that MRCA of all J2-M205 lived and expanded in Middle East since 4000 BCE.

-I connect expansion of J2-M205 line with Akkadians, Canaanites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Phoenicians, Greeks, and finally Romans.

For such a small haplogroup not only that we have confirmed by ancient DNA most of these origins but also whenever ancient Roman bones tested J2-M205 was present among them with most likely earlier Phoenician or other Middle Eastern origin.

Kelmendasi
20-05-20, 21:07
@Dema: I saw on the Serbian Y-DNA Project forum that it was mentioned that you form a cluster under Y22063>BY162742 with a mainland Greek from a particular study. Thought I should inform you of this since it's about you.

Dema
22-05-20, 13:08
@Dema: I saw on the Serbian Y-DNA Project forum that it was mentioned that you form a cluster under Y22063>BY162742 with a mainland Greek from a particular study. Thought I should inform you of this since it's about you.


Aha, thanks for letting me know, i also just seen what they are writing. Well that does not surprise me because just as ancient Greeks had strong interactions with Phoenicians, M205 is pretty strong within Greeks. Highest percentage of J2-M205 in the world is among Cypriot Greeks and Greeks for sure have quite a few various sublcades that would be interesting for further testing.
This is a good read - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Wars
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Guerre_greco-puniche_Greek-punic_wars_1.0.jpg

Its quite possible that we (Y22059) had Hellenic identity rather then Roman one after losing Phoenician identity and settling Balkan. That is why in previous post i mentioned both Greeks and Romans.

Problem is that we dont have a single Greek in Yfull and most of these that tested did very few markers and did not advance tests.
The only Greek on Yfull is mr. Porfiriadis also Y22075+ with Turkish flag but with clearly Greek ethnicity living in what is now Turkey. I would recommend him to put Greek flag rather then Turkish one since he is obviously a Greek and that is personal choice of preference. But also Italians are problem because they have also some very interesting subclades which are not yet properly tested. Perhaps in future this will change.

Regarding this Greek from study sharing one of my private SNPs its very interesting but does not tell us too much, lets hope we find that sample in FTDNA and make some advance tests.

Y22059 is most likely ancient (at least 2000 years old) in these waters because if it was recent we would find recent connection. :wary2:

Dema
22-05-20, 15:01
It means that me and that continental Greek from study (GR99-151) had same ancestor in time of 600-800 years ago and that we form new subclade under Y22063 of course.
But since he is from study we dont have any additional information about him. It would not be bad idea to extract his autosomal from bam file and see where he plots and do we even match on some segments.

Also i see that in same study Serbs discovered that sample TBS19 from Turkish Black Sea Coast shares one SNP with Y22059 meaning he splits entire Y22059 but its most likely very distant connection. As i understood bam file is not of good quality and therefore all SNPs cant be checked. Sharing one out of 30 SNPs can be distant over 5000 years.

This sample TBS19 is designated to live in Turkish Black Sea Coast but its not clear to me is he Turk or Greek?
Anyways, whatever his ethnicity is, he is most likely of previous Canaanite/Phoenician origin.

Look what Wikipedia says about South Black Sea shores:

"Early into the Iron Age, the Phoenicians established ports, warehouses, markets, and settlement all across the Mediterranean and up to the southern Black Sea. Initially led by Tyre, colonies were established on Cyprus, Sardinia, the Balearic Islands, Sicily, and Malta, as well as the fertile coasts of North Africa and the mineral rich Iberian Peninsula."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia#Ascendance_and_high_point_(1200%E2%80%93 800_BCE)

Study: A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-25912-9)

Dema
23-05-20, 17:29
@Dema: I saw on the Serbian Y-DNA Project forum that it was mentioned that you form a cluster under Y22063>BY162742 with a mainland Greek from a particular study. Thought I should inform you of this since it's about you.


Just downloaded bam files to see for autosomal data but these files are so small that its possible that they contain only Y chromosome information.
I will see for this later. However i checked this Cont. Greek and Turkish Black Coast individual for my private SNPs and it seems Serbs have made little unintentional mistake, so its not BY162742 that we share but as it seems its BY162370.


Also i found that continental Greek and Turkish Black Coast person both share my private SNP BY162370.

Also in this study there is continental Italian which is positive to SNP A11525 which is probably on Y22059 level and all these samples are positive to this SNP.


So, its something like this:

J2-M205>Y22075>A11525>? Cont. Italian (RCG24) (TMRCA 3000-5000 ybp)
J2-M205>Y22075>A11525>Y22059>Y22063>BY162370 Dema Kosovo, Cont. Greek (GR99-151), Turkish Black Sea Coast sample (TBS19) (TMRCA 600-800 ybp)


I will have to check all this few more times but im pretty sure its right.

This is great discovery, i will think more about it later

Dema
24-05-20, 00:58
I have double checked the situation within mentioned study, also i asked Albanian administrator Flor Veseli and he show me some mistakes that i made but looks like Serbs have also made many mistakes. Also Flor has said to double check everything in Monday.

Therefore i double checked everything again and new results say that mentioned continental Greek does not share any of my novel SNPs. However he is positive for Y22063. Therefore most likely Y22063*.

In this study there are 3 samples very interesting for Y22059 (Balkan cluster of J2-M205). There is Cont. Italian (RCG24), Cont. Greek (GR99-151), and person labeled by location Turkish Black Sea (TBS19) with high chance to belong to Greek ethnicity.

So, as it looks by results Turkish guy shares one SNP (A11525) with us and negative to at least 12.
Italian guy shares 1 SNP (A11525) with us and negative to 1 (Y24810).
And Greek guy is positive to Y22063 therefore his results are pretty clear, he is very close to us.


According to this new phylogeny will be something like this:

J2-M205>Y22075>A11525>Turkish Black Sea guy (TMRCA 4000-5000 ybp)

J2-M205>Y22075>A11525> Cont. Italian (TMRCA 1500 - 5000 ybp)

J2-M205>Y22075>A11525>Y24810>Y22063 Cont Greek (TMRCA 1000 ybp)

Since we are all positive for A11525 that will probably become our new branch designation and probably one of oldest SNPs within these 30ish novel SNPs our group has.

Both Italian and Turkish guy split our clade with high TMRCA but Italian guy has really low coverage while Turkish guy has somewhat better. There is no coverage on many SNPs therefore we cant know very precisely but without doubt these are further connections that Y22059 Balkan cluster has looked for long time and it found them in Central Italy and Turkish Black Sea, with potential TMRCA 4000-5000 ybp.

Here is results i got for SNPs on Y22059 level against these 3 samples from study:

Y22059 nocov


Y22079 nocov GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


Y22062 nocov


Y22060 nocov


Y22074 nocov


Y22061 nocov


Y22066 nocov


Y22067 positive GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


Y22064 positive GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


Y22065 positive GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


Y22071 nocov GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


Y22080 nocov


A11525 positive GRE positive ITA positive TUR


Y22081 nocov GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


Y22073 nocov GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


Y22083 nocov GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


Y22068 positive GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


Y24805 nocov


Y24806 nocov


Y24809 nocov


BY40885 nocov


BY40913 nocov


Y24808 nocov


Y22078 nocov GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


Y24811 nocov


Y24807 nocov


Y22077 nocov


FT238853 nocov


Y24810 positive GRE negative ITA negative TUR


FGC55083 nocov GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


Y188611 nocov


Y24804 nocov


Y22063 positive GRE negative ITA negative TUR

Dema
25-05-20, 01:32
Just checked all J2b samples from given study A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-25912-9)
and results are next:

GR99-3 Cont. Greece J2b-M12>M205+

PAL03 Cont. Italy J2b-M12>M205+

RCG24 Cont. Italy J2b-M12>M205>Y22075>A11525+

GR99-151 Cont. Greece J2b-M12>M205>Y22075>A11525>Y24810>Y22063+

TBS19 Turkish Black Sea coast J2b-M12>M205>Y22075>A11525+

GR99-2 Cont. Greece J2b-M12>M241>L283>Z600>Z638+

TWM9744 West Turkey J2b-M12>M241>L283>Z600>Z638+

BRI001 Cont. Italy J2b-M12>M241>L283>Z600>Z638+

Dema
25-05-20, 13:15
Bad and good news, just redownloaded GR99-151 again and rechecked and seems he really shares one of my private SNPs, so as Serbs said BY162742 / Y153290.

Maybe file was corrupted or something.

It means that this Cont. Greek is yet my closest relative but sharing only one of my SNPs it can be probably 600-900 years away.

Now i go recheck rest of SNPs again.....

Dema
25-05-20, 14:08
Anyways, just triple checked everything, looks like everything is good just as in previous post except fact that Cont. Greek from this study really shares one of my SNPs.

So, this is really big news for me personally but for entire Y22059/Y22066 Balkan cluster of J2-M205.


Let me try to define new Y22059 Balkan cluster phylogeny one more time based on new finds:


J2-M205>Y22075>A11525+ Turkish Black Sea (TMRCA 4000-5000 ybp)
J2-M205>Y22075>A11525+ Cont. Italian (TMRCA 1500 - 5000 ybp)
J2-M205>Y22075>A11525>Y24810>Y22059+ Balkan (TMRCA 1000 ybp)
J2-M205>Y22075>A11525>Y24810>Y22059>Y22063>BY162742/Y153290+ Albanian and Greek (TMRCA 600 - 700 ybp)




Triple checked snps (RCG24 ITA, TBS19 TUR) from study (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-25912-9):


Y22079 ITA nocov TUR negative

Y22062 nocov

Y22074 nocov

Y22060 nocov

Y22061 nocov

Y22066 nocov

Y22067 ITA nocov TUR negative

Y22064 ITA nocov TUR negative

Y22065 ITA nocov TUR negative

Y22071 ITA nocov TUR negative

Y22080 nocov

A11525 ITA positive TUR positive

Y22081 ITA nocov TUR negative

Y22073 ITA nocov TUR negative

Y22083 ITA nocov TUR negative

Y22068 ITA nocov TUR negative

Y24805 nocov

Y24806 nocov

Y24809 nocov

BY40885 nocov

BY40913 nocov

Y24808 nocov

Y22059 nocov

Y22078 ITA nocov TUR negative

Y24811 ITA nocov TUR negative

Y24807 nocov

Y22077 nocov

FT238853 nocov

Y24810 ITA negative TUR negative

FGC55083 ITA nocov TUR negative

Y188611 nocov

Y24804 nocov

Y22063 ITA negative TUR negative

Dema
25-05-20, 15:45
lol i got tired of this.. Looks like Italian file i downloaded only had 50mb but somehow it was showing it as fully downloaded bam file. Therefore thats why i got all these no reads instead of positive/negative.
I realised my file has only 50mb and when i redownloaded then it had 200mb. Probably the same thing happened with Greek file and thats why i could not get positive read on my private SNP.
Anyways since i worked with one of corrupted files before now i did it all again. The only difference is where i had no read on Italian before now i mostly get NEGATIVE same as Turkish sample.



Therefore i made few mistakes in previous phylogeny and this should be definitive good one:


J2-M205>Y22075>A11525+ Turkish Black Sea (TMRCA 4000-5000 ybp)
J2-M205>Y22075>A11525+ Cont. Italian (TMRCA 4000 - 5000 ybp)
J2-M205>Y22075>A11525>Y22059+ Balkan (TMRCA 1000 ybp)
J2-M205>Y22075>A11525>Y22059>Y22063>BY162742+ Albanian and Greek (TMRCA 600 - 700 ybp)


Therefore Turkish Black Sea sample and Continental Italian split our clade (Y22059/Y22066) in same way with overall TMRCA of around 4000-5000 years.


Here is definitive SNP call list (RCG24 ITA, TBS19 TUR) from study (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-25912-9):


Y22079 ITA NEGATIVE TUR NEGATIVE

Y22062 NOCOV

Y22074 NOCOV

Y22060 NOCOV

Y22061 NOCOV

Y22066 NOCOV

Y22067 ITA NEGATIVE TUR NEGATIVE

Y22064 ITA NEGATIVE TUR NEGATIVE

Y22065 ITA NEGATIVE TUR NEGATIVE

Y22071 ITA NEGATIVE TUR NEGATIVE

Y22080 NOCOV

A11525 ITA POSITIVE TUR POSITIVE

Y22081 ITA NEGATIVE TUR NEGATIVE

Y22073 ITA NEGATIVE TUR NEGATIVE

Y22083 ITA NEGATIVE TUR NEGATIVE

Y22068 ITA NEGATIVE TUR NEGATIVE

Y24805 NOCOV

Y24806 NOCOV

Y24809 NOCOV

BY40885 NOCOV

BY40913 NOCOV

Y24808 NOCOV

Y22059 NOCOV

Y22078 ITA NEGATIVE TUR NEGATIVE

Y24811 NOCOV

Y24807 NOCOV

Y22077 NOCOV

FT238853 NOCOV

Y24810 ITA NEGATIVE TUR NEGATIVE

FGC55083 ITA NEGATIVE TUR NEGATIVE

Y188611 NOCOV

Y24804 NOCOV

Y22063 ITA NEGATIVE TUR NEGATIVE

Dema
26-05-20, 14:47
What is interesting about these results is that both Cont. Italian and Turkish Black Sea sample have same reads against Y22059/Y22066 level of SNPs.

19 not covered, 12 negative, and 1 positive.


Since they are positive to exactly same SNP (A11525) and negative to all same 12 other SNPs from Y22059 lvl i think there is decent chance they belong to relatively same or close branch.
Also since there is 12 negatives and only 1 positive i think the negative trend would continue within the rest of 19 not covered SNPs, even tho there is chance they would share few more SNPs with us except A11525.


Therefore its safe to say that Balkan clade Y22059/Y22066 has TMRCA at least 4000-5000 years ago with their closest cousins in continental Italy and Turkish Black Sea.

Mercurial
18-06-20, 21:28
Hey Dema! Any input on the possibility of Greek ethnos after Phoenician? You remember the story I told you way back, does it make more sense now with regards to the new findings?

Dema
19-06-20, 02:04
Hey Dema! Any input on the possibility of Greek ethnos after Phoenician? You remember the story I told you way back, does it make more sense now with regards to the new findings?Hello Mercurial, best regards!
I remember your story of Greek origin and with new finds of Y22063 Greek which shares TMRCA 600-700 years with me. Also with new Italian and possibly Anatolian Greek or Turk samples which share TMRCA over 4000 years with us. But also because of high diversity among Greeks and actually highest percantage of J2-M205 in the world among Cypriot Greeks, it makes me believe that many subclades spread with Greeks after lossing Phoenician/Canaanite identity.

I definitely believe that J2-M205>Y22059 spread with Greeks and is more northern J2-M205 line, unlike most of its brother clades being more south towards Greece, Italy, Mediterranean Sea, and Middle East.

Also i asked two Albanian admins recently for opinion and they both said it's probably Greek expansion.

Also what i think is because of no close relatives and closest ones being few thousand years far from us, we are not that recent arrival. Maybe we arrived with very early Greek colonies which started since 800 BCE. Like for example Albanian city Durrës which actually started as a Greek colony in 600 BCE. Or Island Pharos which was also Greek colony, and so on.. I would say Y22059 arrived in Balkans earliest with Greek colonies around 600 BCE or latest with Roman Empire.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Mercurial
27-07-20, 23:28
Thank you for the response Dema!

I have just a little bit more information. Above my village there there are many highlands and there exists a place that was called "Grčke trle" (Greek stables) within what is known as "Čuka" region and the road that leads to there and beyond was called the Greek road. Me and my broad family own a lot of forests in this area and we even found some old ruins in one of the parcels. Like an entrance to the building with bricks. I've learned that trla means a stable, but I got that from the internet. I will investigate further.