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Dema
22-10-17, 22:27
I dont know have most of you noticed, but there has been new J2b1 text added to Eupedia and J2b1 has been more properly introduced on Eupedia.
It would be nice if we would focus on J2b1 in this thread regarding j2b1 and his development on Eupedia but also outside it.
So all constructive arguments, questions or comments regarding J2b1 and its current status on Eupedia are welcome!


First i would like to thank Maciamo for adding J2b1 on J2 section of Eupedia. Now lets see how our J2b1 :heart: story will further develop.


Text of J2b1 as it stands on Eupedia today with 22 October of 2017:

https://i.imgur.com/rFBuH1n.jpg



Map of J2b1-M205 as it stands on Eupedia today on 22 of October in 2017:

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b1.png

Dema
22-10-17, 22:30
There are two major branches of J2b1 in Balkans and these are J2b1>? (Mediterranean coastal branch) and J2b1>PH4306>Y22059 (Balkan mainland branch).

Yfulls: Balkan J2b1 - https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y22059/ J2b1-M205 overall - https://yfull.com/tree/J-M205/


As it can be seen its two different branches when split happened more then 6000 years ago. Mediterranean branch is longer present in Europe as it straches in multiple various ethnicities including Greeks and Italians also it has high TMRCA. While Balkan one is more focused on inner mainland, its pretty much grouped and its TMRCA is very low of only 900-1200 years and no close relatives except themselves suggesting more recent also sudden arrival from direction of Levant.


Here it can be seen that Balkan branch Y22059/Y22066 is brother clade to PH1089 (Levantines), also there is one more brother clade in Palestine:
https://j2-m172.info/2016/10/possibly-j2b1-m205-basal-structure-defined-cts1969-cts5338-yp13-ph4306-ph1089-y22066/

Also note that all closest relatives of Balkan branch (TMRCA 900-1200 years) except themselves are Levantines (Lebanon, Jordan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Emirates, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Cyprus..).

https://i.imgur.com/ck64B1b.jpg

bicicleur
22-10-17, 22:53
the split, 6.1 ka is to old to be bronze age

and 6.1 ka it was a split in 5 : M205*, Y22059, Y22037, YP13*, PF7300
which means a major expansion at that time

Dema
22-10-17, 23:03
the split, 6.1 ka is to old to be bronze age

and 6.1 ka it was a split in 5 : M205*, Y22059, Y22037, YP13*, PF7300
which means a major expansion at that time

Yes, good perception : ) Age of entire j2b1 is 15900 years while its TMRCA is only 6100 years.

Furthermore then there is more groups of J2b1 where every single each of them is 6100 years old with 6100 years TMRCA except Balkan group that is also 6100 years old but its the only one with low TMRCA (900-1200 years) and no closer relatives then Levantines (who are 6000 years distant).


Maybe we can draw some conclusions from this? I agree that split must have been around 6100 years ago.

Dema
22-10-17, 23:19
Regarding text on Eupedia about J2b1 i see that there is missing one of our very important ancient DNA samples.

Its Roman gladiator found in England, York. He is J2b1 and autosomally ploted near Jordan Bronze Age sample.

https://j2-m172.info/2016/01/exogenous-roman-era-york-3drif-26-is-j2b1-m205-and-likely-middle-eastener/


Also i dont agree that J2b1 is most represented in Balkan countries, this is simply not true. By researches its most represented in Cyprus with almost 6% while in Serbia by researches it goes 2-3% by public researches. And i think that is max for Serbia 2% and that is questionable. While among South Slavs in general should be even less, not sure will there be even 1%. For example Slovenia absolutely lacks it.

So i think entire map should be reworked and questioned again.

Trojet
22-10-17, 23:33
Yes, good perception : ) Age of entire j2b1 is 15900 years while its TMRCA is only 6100 years.

Furthermore then there is more groups of J2b1 where every single each of them is 6100 years old with 6100 years TMRCA except Balkan group that is also 6100 years old but its the only one with low TMRCA (900-1200 years) and no closer relatives then Levantines (who are 6000 years distant).


Maybe we can draw some conclusions from this? I agree that split must have been around 6100 years ago.

The "Balkan Cluster" (J-Y22059,Y22066) phylogeny currently goes something like this: J2b1-M205>CTS1969>PH4306>Y22066. So this cluster is also under the CTS1969 branch. The reason why YFulll doesn't have it under CTS1969 is because this SNP is not well covered by the BigY, and the two samples have no-call for this SNP. Below CTS1969, the "Balkan Cluster" also shares PH4306 and Y22075 with scientific NGS samples from the Levant area, and a BigY sample from Qatar who hasn't uploaded to YFull, as can be seen here: http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b1

So the "Balkan Cluster" (J-Y22066,Y22059) does not form a "distinct" J2b1-M205 branch as suggested by the YTree (due to CTS1969 being no call and other samples not at YFull), but at the same time, currently it has no close relatives.

Dema
22-10-17, 23:50
@Trojet You are absolutely correct Trojet thanks for input. I have mistaken it for PH1089 in previous posts. Thanks for pointing it out, i have made corrections.

Also you are correct, in Eupedia it should be probably written that Balkan clade is brother clade to Levantines and not a distinct line. As for sure there are more further clades under J2b1 and Balkan clade doesn't have anyone closer then Levantines.

Btw also marker wise, except ourselves (1000-1200 years TMRCA) all our closest matches are in Levant.
For example, except guys from Balkan who all fall under 1200 years TMRCA, my closest relative is guy you mentioned, Albeshri from Qatar on GD 11/37.
Who is ofc out of our clade formed 6000 years ago, but still marker wise he is for example so far my closest relative outside Balkan on 37 markers compared.

Dema
23-10-17, 11:51
J2b1 phylogenic tree as it stands today with 23 October of 2017:

https://i.imgur.com/L5m4m5P.jpg

http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b1

Dema
26-10-17, 04:29
I edited out text that Greeks are PH4306, i simply dont know to what branch Greeks go under and i dont know for any bigY that someone of Greeks took.

So far as it can be seen Levantines PH1089+, Balkan branch Y22059+, and one more line in Palestine PH1417+ are brother clades all under PH4306.

There are Italians, English guy and Spaniards tested with bigY but none of them is PH4306+ so far.

Dema
04-11-17, 18:05
As i stated earlier when i say Levantines we know for sure so far that its Lebanon, Jordan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Emirates, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Cyprus, Egypt, Armenia, Turkey,, All PH1089+

Why is map displaying like half of these countries lack j2b1 when there is j2b1 reported in all these places and it can be seen in public databases and researches. Also one more time appeal on J2b1 map which is totally wrong regarding both Levant. Also Balkan which is falsely represented higher then it really is.

Also since j2b1 is 16 000 years old with quite few groups, it would be nice if text on Eupedia would correctly say that Balkan mainland branch Y22066/Y22059 is brother clade to Levantines, and even tho separation is 6000 years old. With one more line in Palestine they are closest ones one to another from all tested people so far there is no one closer. So, brother clades. TMRCA 4000 BC.

Mercurial
01-12-17, 16:06
Hello Dema. J2b1 is actually underrepresented in Serbia (I don't know about whole Balkans) because currently available data does not include much of the Šopluk region where J2b1 is abundant (that sample, that I have also been a part of as J2b1, as I've heard should be published soon, maybe early next year). It is present in abundance from Svrljig to Trgovište. Do you perhaps know something about Sarakatsani origins of Balkan J2b1? In my family there is a story that we come from a Greek tribe. It is not mentioned that it is specifically Sarakatsani though. I wonder if anybody knows if there ever was Y-DNA test done on any Sarakatsani people.

Dema
03-12-17, 13:55
Hello Dema. J2b1 is actually underrepresented in Serbia (I don't know about whole Balkans) because currently available data does not include much of the Šopluk region where J2b1 is abundant (that sample, that I have also been a part of as J2b1, as I've heard should be published soon, maybe early next year). It is present in abundance from Svrljig to Trgovište. Do you perhaps know something about Sarakatsani origins of Balkan J2b1? In my family there is a story that we come from a Greek tribe. It is not mentioned that it is specifically Sarakatsani though. I wonder if anybody knows if there ever was Y-DNA test done on any Sarakatsani people.Hello Mercurial, best regards, how you mean J2b1 is underrepresented in Serbia? In most public studies on Serbs that i seen there is 1 - 3 percent of M205.
For example in Todorovic et al. (2014) that tested 85 Serbs near Aleksandrovac that is also in southern part it showned only 2 persons out of 85 to belong to J2b1:
http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0350-0861/2014/0350-08611401245T.pdf
or Reguiero et al. (2012) where among 103 Serbians only 2,9% had J2b with J2b, J2b1 and J2b2 combined.
Then Mirabal 2010 which had sample of 318 Montenegrins, where only 5 had j2b1. And in same research there was also 173 Serbs tested and only 3 had J2b1 which would be 1,7 percent.


There are two hot spots in Balkan with higher concentration of J2b1, one is as you mentioned in South Serbia and partially in Montenegro, while other is in Bosnia in parts of RS and down to Croatia in Knin (Krajina). But out of these hot spots J2b1 frequency falls down. For example around Belgrade area and more north i doubt that J2b1 will reach over percent.

Regarding origin, when we speak about our branch - J2b1-M205>CTS1969>PH4306>Y22059/Y22066 we dont really see some connection with Greeks but rather it looks like sudden arrival from direction of Levant. Even tho we have one Greek in our group with interesting location:

https://s25.postimg.org/qbdsfry0v/Greek_Phoca.jpg

Our TMRCA based on ten Y111 tests is around 1200 years. Also with most people falling in this group being Orthodox Christians also being pretty rare among Vlachs or Albanians i think its pretty safe to asume it was arrival in time of Byzant. Most likely as mercenaries or administration. Then there is question did we all develop out of a single guy who lived 1200 years ago. Or rather from one big family that emigrated here in time of Byzant. But with having major expansion in Balkan and not yet a single example in Middle East, it looks like family has developed here from indeed a single guy who arrived around 1200 years ago, who was powerful enough to raise such a big family.


Furthermore outside our group that seems focused in Balkan mainland areas with 1200 years TMRCA, all our closest relatives are in Levant with Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Arab Emirates looks like being closest (but this will additionally cleared out when more people in Levant will get tested esspecially with bigY tests).

For example, as text inside says this is pure theory about our forefather arrival based on TMRCA, closest relatives, and what is very important ancient DNA:


https://i.imgur.com/1MwnIvj.png

Dema
03-12-17, 13:59
Ancient DNA:


https://i.imgur.com/A7AkvTe.jpg

Mercurial
25-12-17, 15:50
Sorry for the late reply, I don't come to this forum too often.
I meant it is underrepresented because there haven't been big studies done in this region, which is not the case with this new study that should come out soon, and the samples from it should raise j2b1 presence in Serbia. I think it was SANU research, not even sure. I basically only have the information that I belong to J2b1, no branches, nothing, since the study isn't out yet. Regarding the Greek origin, it is just something that has been spoken of in the family, and most people in my village speak of us as Greeks and Novoselci. My paternal ancestors lived in Novo Selo (near Predejane) some 300-400 years ago before moving to Orasac (near Leskovac).
Only thing I know further is that my haplotype has 15-20 combination on marker 385ab.

Dema
29-01-18, 05:36
Sure Mercurial, same here. I barely follow any genetic threads lately, but from time to time i check some forums and eventually i look at Yfull to see is there any movements on a J2b1 section. Let me know when you get your full results we can compare each other but i should have around 1000 years distance from most samples in our group.

As Trojet mentioned earlier on Foleja, with release of new version of Yfull (v6.01) there have been some changes. We have been finally correctly placed on their phylogenetic tree. We are now CTS1969+ and PH4306+ same as on Chris tree from J2-M172 project.

To make things even better, we have found our father line in Palestine, and since i asked Trojet earlier i got confirmation that its not same sample from the Christian Rottensteiner tree. So we practically now have father line in Palestine and Qatar and also brother line in Palestine.

Then there just popped up a Qatar sample also as PH4306+, looking to also be a father line or at least PH4306+ brother line.
What is good about this is that our father and brother lines are found exactly or around where our ancient DNA was found. We could have easily be back-migration and downstream of England or Spain samples, even Italian or Greek ones, or even an Ukrainian sample which i believe is very distant migration from Caucasus, however as things are slowly revealing looks like our ancestor indeed arrived from area of around where our closest relatives and ancient DNA was found. So we are kinda line that spread from Caucasus (J2 originated in Caucasus and J2b was already found in Neolithic Iran) to Fertile Crescent (around Fertile Crescent is believed that we are born from our father line >J2B, then had some kind of expansion there and we are sons of one of them that migrated from direction of around Fertile Crescent to Balkan in about 1000 - 1500 years, looks like 1250 to go by average.

So we PH4306 overall don't have 6000 years TMRCA as believed before but somewhat lower but that can also change, still we have somewhat higher TMRCA then our ancient DNA samples so i believe there could be some more ancient DNA discoveries in future.

Overall very good stuff and interesting discoveries.

Yfull tree: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

J2 M172 project tree: http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b1

Much more similar now.
(http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b1)

Also regarding J2b1 and Balkan population that are still unknown where J2b1 has somewhat chance to appear are Gorani people, if Gorani people score some J2b1 it will be very interesting to see what is their haplotype but regarding other populations we more or less know what is situation and what are genetic differences, and as things look like, it seems that whoever today bears this haplotype is assimilated in modern ethnicity it belongs to.

We are all assimilated in time frame of at most of 1000 years, where most likely we all come out of a single guy who arrived on Balkan not long before that.

i am also interested to hear if anyone has some theories or opinions or something we can debate about, so everything is welcome. Best regards.

Bachus
29-01-18, 07:38
Albanian Krič!

I did not know that some Kriči were albanized.

Dema
29-01-18, 21:42
Albanian Krič! I did not know that some Kriči were albanized.Yes, yes.. Im sure you didnt know anything but you come in by accident. Anyways, we dont know was Krici tribe J2b1 dominant or actually are the modern people surnamed Krickovic/Kricka related with old Krici tribe. That is a pure speculation based on two surnames. Who says there was no E-v13, J2a or G2a among Krici also? Furthermore for all we know, Dema surname dominates J2b1 as we have 3 surnames Dema related tested positive for J2b1. Dema from near Tirana in Albania, then me Dema from Kosovo, and there is Demic, i believe he is Orthodox from Croatia. Then what do we actually know about Krici tribe? Except for a fight with Drobnjak tribe and rest of Slavs, if we know anything about them its that they were non Slavic tribe. Did you know that? Furthermore even if Krici theory is true, which is a pretty long ball if you ask me, my line for sure didnt take place in that tribe as there is modelar Krici haplotype where most of people are closely related, even within a few hundred years while i dont have modelar "Krici" haplotype therefore seems like separation happened few hundred years before Krici tribe was actually formed.You can call entire haplotype "Krici" but if you ask me, that is not really accurate name for this haplotype as its questionable how much it had to do with Krici tribe since 99% of people bearing this haplotype dont have any connection with Krici and they never heard of it until they tested, so yea there is kinda a lot of holes in this Krici theory.

Look what Croatian wiki says about Krici:

"Kriči, staro neslavensko pleme neutvrđenog, možda španjskog porijekla, sa područja uz rijeku Taru u Crnoj Gori. Svoje katune Kriči su imali na planini Sinjajevini i u kraju poznatom kao Jezera. Kriči su se održali do sredine 12. stoljeća a izginuli su po dolasku Slavena u neprekidnim borbama sa crnogorskim plemenom Drobnjak koji su ih protjerali preko rijeke Tare. O uzroku sukoba se nagađa, a jedan od njih su pašnjaci za stoku. Prema nekom krvavom sukobu između Kriča i Drobnjaka jedan izvor vode iznad sela Gornja Bukovica prozvan je Krvavac." https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kri%C4%8Di

Bachus
29-01-18, 22:14
Yes, yes.. Im sure you didnt know anything but you come in by accident. Anyways, we dont know was Krici tribe J2b1 dominant or actually are the modern people surnamed Krickovic/Kricka related with old Krici tribe. That is a pure speculation based on two surnames. Who says there was no E-v13, J2a or G2a among Krici also? Furthermore for all we know, Dema surname dominates J2b1 as we have 3 surnames Dema related tested positive for J2b1. Dema from near Tirana in Albania, then me Dema from Kosovo, and there is Demic, i believe he is Orthodox from Croatia. Then what do we actually know about Krici tribe? Except for a fight with Drobnjak tribe and rest of Slavs, if we know anything about them its that they were non Slavic tribe. Did you know that? Furthermore even if Krici theory is true, which is a pretty long ball if you ask me, my line for sure didnt take place in that tribe as there is modelar Krici haplotype where most of people are closely related, even within a few hundred years while i dont have modelar "Krici" haplotype therefore seems like separation happened few hundred years before Krici tribe was actually formed.You can call entire haplotype "Krici" but if you ask me, that is not really accurate name for this haplotype as its questionable how much it had to do with Krici tribe since 99% of people bearing this haplotype dont have any connection with Krici and they never heard of it until they tested, so yea there is kinda a lot of holes in this Krici theory.

Look what Croatian wiki says about Krici:

"Kriči, staro neslavensko pleme neutvrđenog, možda španjskog porijekla, sa područja uz rijeku Taru u Crnoj Gori. Svoje katune Kriči su imali na planini Sinjajevini i u kraju poznatom kao Jezera. Kriči su se održali do sredine 12. stoljeća a izginuli su po dolasku Slavena u neprekidnim borbama sa crnogorskim plemenom Drobnjak koji su ih protjerali preko rijeke Tare. O uzroku sukoba se nagađa, a jedan od njih su pašnjaci za stoku. Prema nekom krvavom sukobu između Kriča i Drobnjaka jedan izvor vode iznad sela Gornja Bukovica prozvan je Krvavac." https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kri%C4%8Di

Kriči were Vlach tribe which lived around Durmitor mountain in territory where Drobnjak clan live today.
Drobnjaci came from Herzegovina or Bosnia in late 14th century and expelled Kriči.

Demić is Serb from Banija region in Croatia.

Croat from Duvno which was tested recently belong to J2b-M205 (Kriči cluster).

Serb from Brus near Kopaonik which is also tested recently is J2b-M205 and his last name is Kričak (is written Кричак - number 5)
https://dnk.poreklo.rs/tabela-pojedinacne-grupe/?grp-filter=J2bM205

Dema
30-01-18, 01:20
Kriči were Vlach tribe which lived around Durmitor mountain in territory where Drobnjak clan live today.
Drobnjaci came from Herzegovina or Bosnia in late 14th century and expelled Kriči.

Demić is Serb from Banija region in Croatia.

Croat from Duvno which was tested recently belong to J2b-M205 (Kriči cluster).

Serb from Brus near Kopaonik which is also tested recently is J2b-M205 and his last name is Kričak (is written Кричак - number 5)
https://dnk.poreklo.rs/tabela-pojedinacne-grupe/?grp-filter=J2bM205


I am not sure that you entirely read or understood text and quantity of information that i provided in previous post that you quoted? I think i elaborated pretty well to you that this haplotype is older then Krici tribe and its expansion happened almost to all modern Balkan ethnicities and even out of Balkan region like Italy, Germany, Turkey (Greek nationality), etc...

So as stated earlier most likely from a single guy who lived around 1200 - 1300 years ago.

Perhaps some of them or one brotherhood also later took part in Krici tribe but as Krici were 12 century tribe, you could speculate that for these that are related within 800 or less years to Kirckovic/Kricka samples. They must have be majority, and therefore that is how modelar haplotype is created. But as i stated earlier to you, there are people whos genetic distance is further and therefore, me for example could not be part of a 12 - 14 century tribe if i dont match these Krici supposed to be samples closer then 800 years. :confused2:

Yes i thought that i made that obvious that Demic modern ethnicity is Serbian since he is Orthodox from Croatia? His current nationality is not even important, what is important is that we have so far 3 Dema related surnames within a J2b1 where one of them only took SNP testing up to M205+. And two of us are very closely related in compare to others on 111 markers.

Anyways as now one of Bosnian Vlachs - Lakic bigY is about to be uploaded to Yfull, there will be some new branches and sub branches formed and perhaps there could be more precise "Krici cluster identified" but i have to repeat again that these would be only people who match Krici and Kricka to 800 years or closer, while our real expansion seems to happened somewhere in Byzantine empire 1200, 1300 years before present, with our closest relatives in area of Palestine, Qatar, United Arab emirates,,, Also with aDNA on places as shown on image above.

My best bet would be mercenery or administration arrived in time of Byzant and someone who was powerful enough to raise such a big family.

Mercurial
30-01-18, 22:26
Thanks for the information! :) I will be coming back to this thread to see weather you have new information, since you are very adept at this subject. Cheers!

Dema
31-01-18, 10:13
No problem, next im gonna take bigY, im just waiting price to drop a bit : )
Also if Albeshri haven't yet uploaded to Yfull, and if he is not this Qatar sample i might also message him to do so.

haplogroup_king
24-02-18, 09:28
No problem, next im gonna take bigY, im just waiting price to drop a bit : )
Also if Albeshri haven't yet uploaded to Yfull, and if he is not this Qatar sample i might also message him to do so.


hello Dema

Regarding about Albsheri, he uploaded his bigY result at YFULL.


you can see him under the branch J-Y22075

haplogroup_king
24-02-18, 09:31
one more thing

there is sample has the same cluster with Albsheri

he is waiting his Big Y result

he is from Qatar too

for more information don't feel hesitate to ask me

my regards

haplogroup_king
24-02-18, 10:14
[QUOTE=Dema;530975]Sure Mercurial, same here. I barely follow any genetic threads lately, but from time to time i check some forums and eventually i look at Yfull to see is there any movements on a J2b1 section. Let me know when you get your full results we can compare each other but i should have around 1000 years distance from most samples in our group.

As Trojet mentioned earlier on Foleja, with release of new version of Yfull (v6.01) there have been some changes. We have been finally correctly placed on their phylogenetic tree. We are now CTS1969+ and PH4306+ same as on Chris tree from J2


I have a simple query

I see there are many samples of j2b1 haplogroup in Balkans and because I do not know very well in your tribes and community in the Balkans, do you have any heritage that says you are from Kinda?

I will be glad to get the answer to my query

Dema
28-02-18, 13:47
hello DemaRegarding about Albsheri, he uploaded his bigY result at YFULL.you can see him under the branch J-Y22075Hello Hapologroup_king, best regards! Very good info! I have actually send him message over Ysearch before, as he is one of our distant matches from direction of Levant. So i asked him to upload to Yfull if that is possible, but i got a error message back and i am not sure did message went thru. However, its very good to hear that he has uploaded to Yfull and that he is confirmed Y22075/PH4306+, so same as most of Balkan samples : )

This was important for Balkan branch: J2b1>Y22075>Y22066, to achieve a link with other Y22075+ samples to try to find more about our distant origin.

So far we have Albeshri from Qatar and one more sample from Palestine. In future i expect more countries to join up, like Lebanon, Cyprus,Iran, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Jordan,,
Also there is somewhat connection with French J2b1 samples, so potentially that could also be some brother line expansion from Levant to territory of France.




one more thing

there is sample has the same cluster with Albsheri

he is waiting his Big Y result

he is from Qatar too

for more information don't feel hesitate to ask me

my regards

Very good, so we are getting another sample from Qatar who is PH4306+.




I have a simple query

I see there are many samples of j2b1 haplogroup in Balkans and because I do not know very well in your tribes and community in the Balkans, do you have any heritage that says you are from Kinda?

I will be glad to get the answer to my query


Not really, it is somewhat connected with one old Vlach tribe - Krici. But no one really knows what language these "Vlachs" spoken prior to their Latinization/Hellenization or even after it.
Only thing that is somewhat known about their language is that it was not Slavic. Everything is very mysterious.
What is Kinda? Is it this? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kindah

Ek Thom
02-03-18, 21:03
Hello

Please have you got more explainations about that :

"Also there is somewhat connection with French J2b1 samples, so potentially that could also be some brother line expansion from Levant to territory of France."

Mercurial
03-03-18, 18:06
I wanna add to the "Greek" origin narrative that is spoken of in my village and family. It could be simply that they used to call everyone that's Byzantine a Greek back then, so when my forebears moved into Europe, it could have stuck. Anyway, it's also not unheard of the fact that there were Greek colonies in Levant and especially Anatolia (assimilation might have happened). Just a few thoughts : ]

haplogroup_king
05-03-18, 08:27
The Byzantine Empire ruled the Levant for a long time to rule out that there were Tribs of the Levant in brackets (Arab) migrated to Europe

Arnguth
12-03-18, 11:50
Hi everyone. I'm from Venice zone, Veneto, Italy, and I'm J-M205.
Here in italy this aplogroup is REALLY uncommon. Venice history is connected to the balkan zone as much as Greece. We have some Byzantine heritage, but it's only about other clades of j1 and j2. The M-205 is really rare. I think that my paternal line comes from Istria or the Balkan adriatic thanks to the Republic of Venice (my autosomals has Balkan, Eastern Euro and East med in significant percentage).

Don't know if this can help your research. I'm very ignorant about genetic and I'm trying to figure out from where my line comes from.

Sorry for bad english

Arnguth
12-03-18, 12:03
Also, my family has no connection with sicily or southern italy.

Pax Augusta
12-03-18, 20:18
Hi everyone. I'm from Venice zone, Veneto, Italy, and I'm J-M205.
Here in italy this aplogroup is REALLY uncommon. Venice history is connected to the balkan zone as much as Greece. We have some Byzantine heritage, but it's only about other clades of j1 and j2. The M-205 is really rare. I think that my paternal line comes from Istria or the Balkan adriatic thanks to the Republic of Venice (my autosomals has Balkan, Eastern Euro and East med in significant percentage).

Don't know if this can help your research. I'm very ignorant about genetic and I'm trying to figure out from where my line comes from.

Sorry for bad english

Hi Arnguth, welcome to Eupedia.

I've met a couple of Serbians who are J-M205.

The J-M205 Yfull tree

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

(https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/)Some maps that could help you.


http://s2.postimg.org/yt3ygdfpl/J_M205.gif

http://i.imgur.com/EuWSbA0.jpg

http://s14.postimg.org/xxdfc9fww/J2b_M205.jpg

(https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/)

Arnguth
12-03-18, 20:47
Hi Arnguth, welcome to Eupedia.I've met a couple of Serbians who are J-M205.thanks!Sorry for my ignorance. From the link it seems that every J-m205 around Europe is from a different clade? Does it mean that the italians J m205 have another origin and common ancestor, not the same of the serbs ?

Azzurro
13-03-18, 00:30
Hi everyone. I'm from Venice zone, Veneto, Italy, and I'm J-M205.
Here in italy this aplogroup is REALLY uncommon. Venice history is connected to the balkan zone as much as Greece. We have some Byzantine heritage, but it's only about other clades of j1 and j2. The M-205 is really rare. I think that my paternal line comes from Istria or the Balkan adriatic thanks to the Republic of Venice (my autosomals has Balkan, Eastern Euro and East med in significant percentage).

Don't know if this can help your research. I'm very ignorant about genetic and I'm trying to figure out from where my line comes from.

Sorry for bad english

Hi Arnguth, welcome to Eupedia.

Before we can find out the history of your line, what test did you take? Was it National Geographic or Living DNA? You should transfer your results to ftdna and get the Y37 test to see under which subclade of M205 you cluster with, and from there pursue to either test for specific snps or buy BigY which is expensive but is worth it.

The maps and website that Pax Augusta sent to you can be very helpful. Yfull has all the splits and snps under J2b-M205.

I will send you the link to Ftdna's J-M172 project

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J2-M172?iframe=yresults

Where you can see others who have tested positive for J2b-M205.

It looks like you are the first from region of Veneto to be positive for this subclade, which is probably due to sample bias not enough people from Veneto who tested on these public dna companies.

As you wrote that you think that perhaps your direct paternal ancestry is from Istria it would increase your chances of being under J-Y22059 which is the Balkan branch of J-M205, the first map that Pax sent correlates with J-Y22059, and you can see that J-Y22059 is around 2-3% in Istria which would make a fairly common subclade in the area. At the moment the history of J-Y22059 remains unknown and is a fairly young branch with the ancestor of this branch living around 1100 AD or 900 ybp (years before present).

As for J2b-M205 in general has been found in 4 ancient samples, 1 in Bronze Age Jordan, 1 in Bronze Age Lebanon, 2 from Iron Age Egypt (1 actually in Egypt and the other was found in a Gladiator from England who autosomally clusters with Egyptians).

nntaleb
15-03-18, 21:56
As a statistician I would say the Levant, Iraq, and Arabia are oversampled compared to the rest so I would not read much into the presence there.

Guido Anselmi
16-03-18, 09:13
As a statistician I would say the Levant, Iraq, and Arabia are oversampled compared to the rest so I would not read much into the presence there.

LOL, who is play-acting as Taleb?

Dema
16-03-18, 14:53
HelloPlease have you got more explainations about that :"Also there is somewhat connection with French J2b1 samples, so potentially that could also be some brother line expansion from Levant to territory of France."Hello, sorry for late reply, i seen the posts but i was traveling.. : )Regarding question, basically, when we look at our specific Balkan group of J2b1>CTS1969>PH4306>Y22066 markerwise we get some relatively distant matches from Middle East that are connected with us, like already mentioned Albeshri from Qatar, or sample from Palestine. And actually many more,,, But there are also French matches at about same genetic distance. Its surnames Blais and Lamy from France, and Blair from Canada who are all very close to each other so for sure same group under the J2b1. Then now when i look at French project i see that actually one of them took bigY, its a guy that i for example match at GD 25/67, Lamy from France.So just as i suspected, he is also positive for PH4306 and most likely some brother clade to Balkan samples.So some of French samples (Close to Lamy) are J2b1>CTS1969>PH4306>BY40879, while Balkan samples are confirmed J2b1>CTS1969>PH4306>Y22066.Furthermore, it would be nice if Lamy would upload his results to Yfull se we can see their analysis and where he will be placed on Yfull.Also hoping to get some Italian and Greek samples tested with bigY so we can see what is their situation within a J2b1 line. Hope this helped, also i see that you guys made many replies, im happy because of that, ill try to answer also to others : )

Dema
16-03-18, 15:09
I wanna add to the "Greek" origin narrative that is spoken of in my village and family. It could be simply that they used to call everyone that's Byzantine a Greek back then, so when my forebears moved into Europe, it could have stuck. Anyway, it's also not unheard of the fact that there were Greek colonies in Levant and especially Anatolia (assimilation might have happened). Just a few thoughts : ]


Definitively possible as Greek was later official in Byzant, also since arriving from direction of Levant, we must have had contact with Greeks first.
Also dont forget our Greek match:

https://s25.postimg.org/qbdsfry0v/Greek_Phoca.jpg

J2b1 generally as a particularly Mediterranean haplogroup for sure had contact with Greeks long ago. If not even with pre Greek populations but as there is more J2b1 clades this will clear out with more bigY results as there is also one other line of J2b1 that seems to colonize Greece and Balkan much earlier then we - Byzantine Levantines did.

Dema
16-03-18, 15:29
The Byzantine Empire ruled the Levant for a long time to rule out that there were Tribs of the Levant in brackets (Arab) migrated to EuropeIts possible, but you have to know that J2b>J2b1 spread from Caucasus to Levant and then further South to Arabia and all down to Oman and Yemen, however when we speak about this expansion we still dont know what exactly our ancestor might have been. He was for sure Levantine, and most likely started his journey somewhere from Palestine or Lebanon - Sidon as that was advance part of Levant in that time controlled by Byzantines, but also today we have higher percentages of J2b1 there, especially Cyprus nearby with probably highest J2b1 percentage in population. Furthermore there is also our ancient DNA so everything is pointing to area of Palestine, Jordan and Lebanon. Also with TMRCA of 1200 years and all closest relatives in Levant except ourselves its very easy possible that we (Y22066 Balkan) all come from one single guy, perhaps a soldier, merchant or administration..We J2b1, are practically found in entire Middle East, except in Israel and among Jewish people. So i would say anything is possible except for Jewish origin.Also J2b1 is 15800 years old but all groups have highest TMRCA of 6100 years what would suggest expansion at that time after a solid bottleneck.That expansion could possibly be in Pre-Semitic period, even tho haplogroup today clearly has strong signal in some Semitic groups like Arabs. Even if we connect it with Semitic expansion it would be some very early ones like Akkadians or Babylonians.Hopefully more Ancient DNA testing will tell us even more detailed story in future..

Dema
16-03-18, 16:19
Hi everyone. I'm from Venice zone, Veneto, Italy, and I'm J-M205.
Here in italy this aplogroup is REALLY uncommon. Venice history is connected to the balkan zone as much as Greece. We have some Byzantine heritage, but it's only about other clades of j1 and j2. The M-205 is really rare. I think that my paternal line comes from Istria or the Balkan adriatic thanks to the Republic of Venice (my autosomals has Balkan, Eastern Euro and East med in significant percentage).

Don't know if this can help your research. I'm very ignorant about genetic and I'm trying to figure out from where my line comes from.

Sorry for bad english


Hello Arnguth, congrats on this awsome haplogroup : )

Where did you test? Do you have your markers also or just basic SNP test like 23andme? And do you know to what branch you might fall under J2b1, as that would help you to know more about your specific history?
That is the best place to start, best regards.



thanks!Sorry for my ignorance. From the link it seems that every J-m205 around Europe is from a different clade? Does it mean that the italians J m205 have another origin and common ancestor, not the same of the serbs ?

I havent seen this post. J-M205 among Serbs is result of recent assimilation of Byzantine leftovers in Balkan.

As most Ethnicities in Balkan separate themselves based on religion, most of people that were historically known as Christian Orthodox Vlachs were later asimilated into Serbian ethnos based on their religion. Esspecially in Croatia and Bosnia and partially Montenegro where we today find highest percentages of J2b1 among South Slavic speaking people.

Also reason why they called them Vlachs is because they didnt actually know what they were as they were clearly not Slavic, but today thanks to genetics we know they were Byzantine Levantines autosomally mixing with native Balkan woman.

You need to test STR markers or do advance SNP test like bigY to know to what branch you belong to.

twocla
17-03-18, 00:10
Hi,I´m new at this forum. My Mother, who was a Dane, always refused to tell me who my Father was. I´m born in Germany 1949. My Mother is dead since 30 Years. Recently I took an Y-test at FTAdna and, for me, the results surprisingly showed that I´m a J-M172 M205. All my matches haveSerbian or Croatian name. Now I have no clue to continue my research, anybody who has an idea ?

Dema
17-03-18, 00:21
Hi,I´m new at this forum. My Mother, who was a Dane, always refused to tell me who my Father was. I´m born in Germany 1949. My Mother is dead since 30 Years. Recently I took an Y-test at FTAdna and, for me, the results surprisingly showed that I´m a J-M172 M205. All my matches haveSerbian or Croatian name. Now I have no clue to continue my research, anybody who has an idea ?Hello, im sorry for your loss, welcome to M205, if you get these matches displayed on FTDNA then there is almost no doubt that you fall in Balkan branch of J2b1>PH4306>Y22066 where all of us are related within a maximum of 1200 years and with more distant Levantine origin. I have written plenty about this HG on this thread. Did you join any public FTDNA project and made your results visible or uploaded your STRs on Ysearch so i can look at them and give you more specific opinion? Best regards : )

EDIT: But since you see matches displayed directly on FTDNA its also very likely that you are close to modelar haplotype, so unlike me, you could probably find some closer match.
You need to compare genetic distance between you and your closest match in order to see when common relative might have lived. You can do this even with build in calculator directly on FTDNA, button near your match.

I would probably see you as a match, but reason i dont is because i have some unique differences and therefore i dont get a single match on FTDNA. Not even on 12 markers compared.
Do you get matches on 37 or 67 markers compared?

haplogroup_king
18-03-18, 13:31
[QUOTE=Dema;535299]Its possible, but you have to know that J2b>J2b1 spread from Caucasus to Levant and then further South to Arabia and all down to Oman and Yemen, however when we speak about this expansion we still dont know what exactly our ancestor might have been. He was for sure Levantine, and most likely started his journey somewhere from Palestine or Lebanon}

I agree with all points you mentioned, it really makes sense.

haplogroup_king
18-03-18, 14:03
http://c.up-00.com/2018/03/152137317859221.jpg (http://www.up-00.com/)

Dema
18-03-18, 14:43
http://c.up-00.com/2018/03/152137317859221.jpg (http://www.up-00.com/)



Interesting tree, but im little confused, what would red numbers represent? TMRCA?

Also, its very basic, but i see there are Oman and Yemen branches added which are CTS1969+? Hmm im not sure how accurate is this tree :)

twocla
18-03-18, 16:55
thx for your kind answer, I got matches, cousin level 2 &3, on 37 markers. I have ordered a 110 test

Dema
18-03-18, 17:15
thx for your kind answer, I got matches, cousin level 2 &3, on 37 markers. I have ordered a 110 test


Yes, then you are most likely closely related to these people. Probably from a Balkan Vlach layer that was later assimilated into a Serb ethnos.
Since you get these matches so closely your ancestor might have identified himself as a Serb at that time of 1948 based on his Eastern Orthodox religion and Slavic speaking language but not necessarily from Serbia.

GD 2 and 3 is pretty close, as it means that most of 37 markers are identical with you.

I would suggest to join this project where you will also see many of us there and possibly be grouped: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/j2-m172/about/background

I have also done 111 markers and i have joined project so we can even practically compare each other to see when common ancestor might have lived, by my rough estimation it was somewhere before 900 and 1200 years.

haplogroup_king
18-03-18, 19:16
the age of mutations are not accurate as you said but I guess the new YFull update will be similar of this one, In other hand J-CTS1969 mutation has many arab samples and J-BY40909 is a new mutation, In all lines belong J-CTS1969 have arab samples.

J-BY37657 located between yemen and oman and all samples below it from arab samples which can be a pure mutation of arabs

haplogroup_king
18-03-18, 19:19
yes as u said TMRCA of the mutations

twocla
18-03-18, 22:47
thx both to Dema and King, you are so kind

Dema
19-03-18, 19:05
the age of mutations are not accurate as you said but I guess the new YFull update will be similar of this one, In other hand J-CTS1969 mutation has many arab samples and J-BY40909 is a new mutation, In all lines belong J-CTS1969 have arab samples. J-BY37657 located between yemen and oman and all samples below it from arab samples which can be a pure mutation of arabsThere are quite a few various mutations and groups, i see these that you mentioned and put on a tree. So CTS1969>BY40909 from Palestine and BY40909>Y22037+ from Spain. With separation from other groups with distance greater then 6100 years but Spanish samples with TMRCA of only 1100 years. Then YP13 found in Qatar and all the way northwest to Italy and England also with separation of 6100 years and TMRCA of 6100 years also there is J2b1 distant group in Ukraine that might be expansion directly from Caucasus. Or Y22075 that also become out as a solid line with solid expansion. Therefore i would say main expansion of J-M205 and of J-M205>CTS1969 happened in Pre-Arabic times somewhere near territory of modern Caucasus and Iran then with expansion to modern Levant and then more South all the way to Oman and Yemen and even few points of India. Even tho we can connect its expansion with some early Semitic cultures, and of some modern like Arabs, its origin is still remained to be seen. So except these ancinent DNAs, there is also found a extinct brother clade of J2b1 and J2b2 in Early Neolithic Iran and ancient DNA is most important when looking at ancient history. - https://j2-m172.info/2016/07/ancient-zagros-j2b-iran-abdul-hosein-early-neolithic-broushaki-et-al/
https://i.imgur.com/A7AkvTe.jpg





thx both to Dema and King, you are so kindNo problem, good luck in further investigation : )

Dema
19-03-18, 19:51
As for J2b-M205 in general has been found in 4 ancient samples, 1 in Bronze Age Jordan, 1 in Bronze Age Lebanon, 2 from Iron Age Egypt (1 actually in Egypt and the other was found in a Gladiator from England who autosomally clusters with Egyptians).We have only one late sample from Egyptian mummy (769 - 560 BCE pre-Ptolemy), and in that time Egypt was conquered by Assyria where Nubian kings that held Egypt were expelled. Roman gladiator (3DRIF-26) plots right in between Copts and Sarmatians, just near Early Bronze Age J2b1 sample from ancient Jordan:

https://j2-m172.info/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2016/06/PCAtest2_Eurogenes_2016-06-23_detail-Levant.png

haplogroup_king
19-03-18, 22:11
The origin of the J2b1 not from Iran, it is from {Fertile Crescent}

History of the Fertile CrescentMost scholars believe that the Fertile Crescent was the birthplace of human civilization. The first human beings to farm and domesticate animals lived in the fertile crescent around 10,000 BCE. A thousand years later, farming was prevalent; by 5,000 BCE farmers in the fertile crescent had developed irrigation systems and raising sheep for wool.





Because the area was so fertile, it encouraged farming of a broad range of crops. These include wheat, rye, barley, and legumes.
By 5400 BCE, early human cities developed in Sumer (https://www.thoughtco.com/an-introduction-to-sumer-121074) including Eridu (https://www.thoughtco.com/eridu-iraq-earliest-city-in-mesopotamia-170802) and Uruk (https://www.thoughtco.com/uruk-period-mesopotamia-rise-of-sumer-171676). Some of the first decorated pots, wall hangings, and vases were created, along with the world’s first brewed beer. Trade began, with the rivers used as “highways” to transport goods. Highly decorative temples rose to honor many different gods.
From about 2500 BCE, great civilizations arose in the fertile crescent. Babylon (https://www.thoughtco.com/babylon-iraq-ancient-capital-170193) was a center for learning, law, science, and mathematics as well as art. Empires arose in Mesopotamia (https://www.thoughtco.com/fast-facts-about-mesopotamia-119955), Egypt (https://www.thoughtco.com/ancient-egypt-predynastic-period-43712), and Phoenicia. The Bible stories of Abraham and Noah take place around 1900 BCE; while the Bible was once believed to be the oldest book ever written, it is clear that many great works were completed long before Biblical times.

https://www.thoughtco.com/fertile-crescent-117266

http://c.up-00.com/2018/03/152148994525891.jpg (http://www.up-00.com/)


http://c.up-00.com/2018/03/152148994614542.jpg (http://www.up-00.com/)

Dema
20-03-18, 00:33
The origin of the J2b1 not from Iran, it is from {Fertile Crescent}History of the Fertile CrescentMost scholars believe that the Fertile Crescent was the birthplace of human civilization. The first human beings to farm and domesticate animals lived in the fertile crescent around 10,000 BCE. A thousand years later, farming was prevalent; by 5,000 BCE farmers in the fertile crescent had developed irrigation systems and raising sheep for wool.Because the area was so fertile, it encouraged farming of a broad range of crops. These include wheat, rye, barley, and legumes.By 5400 BCE, early human cities developed in Sumer (https://www.thoughtco.com/an-introduction-to-sumer-121074) including Eridu (https://www.thoughtco.com/eridu-iraq-earliest-city-in-mesopotamia-170802) and Uruk (https://www.thoughtco.com/uruk-period-mesopotamia-rise-of-sumer-171676). Some of the first decorated pots, wall hangings, and vases were created, along with the world’s first brewed beer. Trade began, with the rivers used as “highways” to transport goods. Highly decorative temples rose to honor many different gods.From about 2500 BCE, great civilizations arose in the fertile crescent. Babylon (https://www.thoughtco.com/babylon-iraq-ancient-capital-170193) was a center for learning, law, science, and mathematics as well as art. Empires arose in Mesopotamia (https://www.thoughtco.com/fast-facts-about-mesopotamia-119955), Egypt (https://www.thoughtco.com/ancient-egypt-predynastic-period-43712), and Phoenicia. The Bible stories of Abraham and Noah take place around 1900 BCE; while the Bible was once believed to be the oldest book ever written, it is clear that many great works were completed long before Biblical times.https://www.thoughtco.com/fertile-crescent-117266 http://c.up-00.com/2018/03/152148994525891.jpg (http://www.up-00.com/)http://c.up-00.com/2018/03/152148994614542.jpg (http://www.up-00.com/)
Yes i would agree and i know most of these things, i ment more distant origin of J2b - Caucas, and Iran (J2b-M102* - extinct brother clade of J2b1 and J2b2 from Early Neolithic Zagros), while J2b1 clearly has nearby Fertile Crescent origin and expansion. Everything is pointing out that way. Cities you mentioned Urok and Eridu were Sumerian, and Sumerians spoken Language Isolate - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_isolate While their neighbors and also conquerors Akkadians unlike Sumerians were Semitic speakers.On Sumerian ruins Babylon has rise - Semitic culture with Sumerian elements,, Our Early Bronze Age Jordan ancient DNA (2500 - 2300 BCE) corresponds with these cultures.

Dema
21-03-18, 21:48
Also regarding theory of ancient origin of J2b in Caucasus is based on that Early Neolithic Zagros Sample as also Maciamo says on Eupedia and many people agree with him:
The oldest known J2b sample comes from the Pre-Pottery Neolithic site of Tepe Abdul Hosein in western Iran, dating from approximately 10,000 years ago. This is the strongest evidence that J2b actually originated in the mountains of the Zagros or the Caucasus, rather than in the plains of the Fertile Crescent.But this sample is already fully developed J2b - J2b-M12(xcts560,Z620) So probably one of J2b1s and J2b2s brother clades with expansion to territory to West Iran, Zagros mountains. But when looking at Yfull tree, particularly samples from Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq and furthermore entire Middle East show more diversity and higher formed date and TMRCA rather then Caucasus or Iranian samples.Therefore i would say more therall ancient DNA testing is needed to be able to complete this story but i would not be surprised if entire J2 has origin in Middle East rather then in Caucasus/Iran.Also about J2b1:
J2b1's origins remain unclear, but it probably originated in the South Caucasus and/or Iran and might have spread to the Levant, Cyprus and Greece with the Kura-Araxes culture during the Bronze Age. The branch found in the western Balkans (Y22069) is distinct from the East Mediterranean and Caucasian branch. It seems to have formed 6,000 years ago, but its TMRCA is very young at 900 years before present, suggesting a medieval founder effect.Its clear that J2b1 has Levant origin as highest diversity and all of our ancient DNA is found there rather then in Caucasus or Iran. Also in modern day living people highest percentage of J2b1 along with highest diversety is found in area of Fertile Crescent, especially Lebanon, Palestine and Jordan. With strong signal in some Semitic groups like Arabs. This also testifies about Middle Eastern origin rather then Caucasian or Iranian one to J2 as a whole. https://www.yfull.com/tree/J2/ - formed 31600 ybp, TMRCA 27700 ybp. Also i think its pretty clear that Balkan branch of J2b1 is closely related to Middle Eastern samples like Palestinian and Qatar one rather then being a "distinct" line as was already said in first page of this thread.Open for debate? :wary2:

haplogroup_king
22-03-18, 12:40
Open the link, it shows the formation of Arabian Gulf for 15,000 years https://youtu.be/i92bGbZhqz0


1

http://c.up-00.com/2018/03/152171469836861.png (http://www.up-00.com/)



2

http://c.up-00.com/2018/03/152171480387511.jpg (http://www.up-00.com/)


3

http://a.up-00.com/2018/03/15217149550331.jpg (http://www.up-00.com/)

4

http://a.up-00.com/2018/03/152171495522472.jpg (http://www.up-00.com/)


5

http://a.up-00.com/2018/03/152171495539693.jpg (http://www.up-00.com/)

Dema
22-03-18, 19:00
Well, paragroup GHIJK was spread from Middle East all the way to Caucasus and Zagros. With possible origin in West Asia 50k ybp:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Western_Asia_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg/200px-Western_Asia_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg.png

haplogroup_king
23-03-18, 07:10
I think that, it should be helpful for who doesn't know the fact

haplogroup_king
23-03-18, 07:30
look at this video and focus on the Arabian peninsula

https://youtu.be/uLahVJNnoZ4

haplogroup_king
25-03-18, 19:41
new sample from Qatar under J-Y22075* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22075*/) https://www.yfull.com/tree/j2/

Dema
26-03-18, 16:19
new sample from Qatar under J-Y22075* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22075*/) https://www.yfull.com/tree/j2/


Yes, cool. So, J2b1>CTS1969>PH4306>PH1089>B247>PH2514 or J2b1b1a.
There are also Turkish and Armenian samples that are under the same subclade, and also most likely some of Saudi Arabian, United Arab Emirates, Iraqi and Lebanon samples fall under the same branch. While there is Jordan sample PH1089+ but B247- and PH2514-.

Dema
01-04-18, 12:35
There have been two J2bs found in Western Neolithic Iran at Hajji Firuz Tepe site. 6016-5899 BCE and 5887-5724 BCE https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/03/31/292581 Most likely J2b*, as there was J2b* already found in Western Early Neolithic Iran that was fully developed (J2b-M12(xcts560,Z620)) and most likely extinct brother clade of J2b1 and J2b2. However, there is chance that these samples could be positive for J-M205 or J-Z1825, it remains to be seen after data is made public. Not really a big deal for J2b since we already have that older sample (8205–7756 BCE) from nearby area of the family of some of the first farmers of Iran from Tepe Abdul Hosein, but this just refortifies founding that some branches of already fully developed J2bs have been present in West Iran since Early Neolithic times.

Dema
01-04-18, 13:09
Anyways, i would like to bring focus on J-M205 and probably the most informative paper when it comes to researching J2b1 from probably one of most knowledgeable people when it comes to J-M172 research:
So the most likely M205 expansion origin seems to be the Western Fertile Crescent. For the subclades CTS5338, Y22524, CTS10179 +13 seems from Iberic Middle Ages, YP13, YP51 +4 is probably not much younger then M205 and still of Fertile Crescent origin while PH4306, {Y22075} is only slightly younger then M205 and likely has the same origin and expansion.
Document: https://j2-m172.info/2016/10/possibly-j2b1-m205-basal-structure-defined-cts1969-cts5338-yp13-ph4306-ph1089-y22066/

Dema
03-04-18, 14:26
New version of Yfull has arrived yesterday. There have been some changes all over. J-M205 got its formed date changed to 16000 ybp and TMRCA to 6000ybp.Also Oman, Lebanon, Yemen, Saudi and Ukraine samples have been placed under J-PF7321 with TMRCA 6000 years.Now it looks like this:

https://i.imgur.com/U6Kb6sR.jpg

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/


Also, its interesting to see that J2b-Z1825>Y31143 where there was 5 Palestininans and 1 Armenian before, grouped with 12200 years TMRCA, now Palestinians have been placed under the Armenian sample where Palestinians have only 250 years TMRCA while Armenian 12000 years TMRCA.https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y31143/ I believe this could be proof of J2b2 having Caucasus origin, while J2b1 still seems to have Fertile Crescent origin of expansion.

So after this changes and all additional things i believe that haplogroup J2 was spread all the way from Fertile Crescent to Caucasus and Zagros Mountains. While J2b2 could have Caucasus expansion while J2b1 Levantine one. At least when it comes to two major lines, while there is extinct j2b* line found in Neolithic Zagros.So, something like this:

https://i.imgur.com/9HSV275.jpg

Mich Glitch
03-04-18, 16:35
Hi guys,
I (YF01501) am J-PF7321*.
FTDNA didn't read CTS1969. But YSEQ has read it as negative.
I'm almost sure YF12907, YF12115, YF11699, YF11632 have the same situation.
Check CTS1969 for more information.

Mich Glitch
03-04-18, 18:12
Because our age estimation methodology isn't adapted to process Big Y VCF files and many of our YTree branches now consist of samples based on VCF files, we wish to consider whether our methodology can be improved to include VCF file data.

For this purpose, we would like to study Hg 38 VCF files of customers who joined YFull by initially submitting Hg19 BAM files. Our age estimation methodology will be adjusted, for test purposes, to accommodate data from the Hg38 VCF files. Results from using the adjusted methodology with VCF files will be compared to the existing Hg19 age estimation results.

If you manage one or more Big Y Hg19 BAM samples that are already in our database, with completed results, we ask that you please send us the Hg38 VCF files for your samples, for use in our test. Submit the Hg38 VCF files by first getting them from FTDNA and then submitting them to us via using one of these links: https://www.yfull.com/upload-vcf-for-age/ or https://yfull.com/upload-vcf-for-age/

The study database will close when we have received 1000 Hg38 VCF files or on April 30, 2018, whichever occurs first.

Comparison reports will be available only during the month of May 2018.

Please join this test!

Dema
05-04-18, 11:53
Hi guys,I (YF01501) am J-PF7321*.FTDNA didn't read CTS1969. But YSEQ has read it as negative.I'm almost sure YF12907, YF12115, YF11699, YF11632 have the same situation. Check CTS1969 for more information.Hello, best regards! Can you tell us more about your paternal line, or your discoveries? If i remember correctly, you were the first sample tested negative for CTS1969?
Yes, this group is interesting, but its very distant when looking geographically. Its spread from South - Yemen and Oman, all the way to North - Ukraine? I think some SNP expert needs to make some sense out of all this new bigYs that we got into a J-M205 lately. Perhaps crew from J2-M172 (https://j2-m172.info/) project will make some new analysis.

Mich Glitch
05-04-18, 16:58
- Can you tell us more about your paternal line, or your discoveries?
- My paternal line from Poland (modern Ukraine) since 1700.

- If i remember correctly, you were the first sample tested negative for CTS1969?
- I've tested in 2007, so maybe I was the first. But now we have a lot samples CTS1969-. And unfortunately some tested persons have this position non-read.

Mich Glitch
05-04-18, 17:04
Main hypothesis for now is the way via Ottoman Empire by numerous invasions to my ancestors' area.
Something in 14th - 17th cc.

But the case of the Roman gladiator from England tells us there are many other possibilities.

Mich Glitch
05-04-18, 17:06
I've ordered WGS test in Dante Labs, so I hope to improve my data.

haplogroup_king
06-04-18, 14:12
You can not judge on the J2b2 because there is sample located in the top of it.

For your information

The Armenian sample has Syrian origin which is from Kasab village.

so I think we need more samples to be more accurate.

haplogroup_king
06-04-18, 14:23
Kasab Village

https://goo.gl/maps/VNnx93YkWyK2

Dema
06-04-18, 16:14
You can not judge on the J2b2 because there is sample located in the top of it. For your information The Armenian sample has Syrian origin which is from Kasab village.so I think we need more samples to be more accurate.

Im not judging based on one sample, but this group is very interesting as it has one of higher TMRCAs within the J2b2. Well this info is very interesting, if origin of Armenian sample is from Armenian populated town in Syria that completely changes the story... Since this TMRCA predates IE languages and goes all the way to very beginning of Early Neolithic.
Thank you for these valuable informations.

For me researching J2b2 along with J2b1 has few interests, as J2b2 is brother clade of J2b1. Then my maternal (uncle) Ydna is J2b2, and also J2b2 is one of primary lines within the Albanian population, along with E-v13 and R1b.
J2b2 for sure had Indo-European expansion, but origin is still remained to be seen. There is a chance J2b2 could originate around Syria, Palestine, Iraq, Kuwait,, its an alternate theory to Caucasus or Iranian one.

Mich Glitch
06-04-18, 16:55
By the way.
I have another ancestral line from Poland too. J2b2. I'm still waiting for BigY results.
The most distant known ancestor is Piotr Włostowic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piotr_W%C5%82ostowic) (c. 1080 – 1153), or Peter Wlast.

There are many haplotype variants for his descendants (look here (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Dunin/default.aspx?section=yresults)). It's normal for deep pedigrees, unforunately.

Dema
06-04-18, 17:40
By the way.
I have another ancestral line from Poland too. J2b2. I'm still waiting for BigY results.
The most distant known ancestor is Piotr Włostowic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piotr_W%C5%82ostowic) (c. 1080 – 1153), or Peter Wlast.

There are many haplotype variants for his descendants (look here (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Dunin/default.aspx?section=yresults)). It's normal for deep pedigrees, unforunately.

Im going little offtopic here, i would say your uncle is J2b2>Z1825>M241>L283>Z638>Z1296>Z1297>Z631+
Maybe J-Y29718 as it was already found in Poland.


While my uncle one is J2b2>Z1825>M241>L283>Z638>Z1296>Y20899>PH1751


Funny coincidence that we have similar paternal and maternal Ydnas :)
It is for sure from Bronze age Indo-European expansion into Europe.


I will reply later regarding your Ydna and my opinion since im still doing some hobby research in that direction, hopefully soon.
Im interested to hear would you consider maybe more distant Jewish origin of your paternal haplogroup rather then Ottoman Empire one?
It might be connected with Yemenite Jews, together with Roman gladiator sample that is somewhat connected to you.

Dema
07-04-18, 15:38
I played little with calculators and STRs yesterday, trying to see genetic difference within PF7321+ and CTS1969- where we have Ukraine, Oman, Yemen, Saudi and Lebanon samples.

So IDs, 364868 Oman, 214400 Yemen, M6123 UAE, N53374 Ukraine, 779972 Lebanon, 755698 Saudi. (Please let me know if i got any of sample wrong)

Yemen and UAE samples are pretty close, GD 7/111 and they show TMRCA of only 400 years.
With Oman sample TMRCA goes up to 1650 years. Adding Lebanon sample TMRCA went up to 2900 years.
Then adding Saudi sample it goes 3,350 years. And finally adding Ukraine sample we got 4300 years TMRCA.

It is not much different from what Yfull estimated = 6000 years, these variations are normal, it is just to see relative genetic distance.

So i think we are getting brother clade of CTS1969 developed here. And regarding STRs, Ukraine sample is still isolated with no one really close and it might be distant migration, probably before Common Era.
So i believe Yfull tree will further change in future and some samples will be regrouped.

What we need is some expert SNPs and STRs analysis again. (I will probably learn SNPs after i take bigY)

Regarding Roman Gladiator there has been article before, where also our Ukraine sample have been mentioned:


For the analysis currently 15 M205+ chrY NGS results are available with varying coverage and data access. Those results so far build 10 subhaplogroups (some tentative) mostly without more then two equivalent SNPs. See tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b1 (http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b1)3DT26.chrY.bam was ancestral to some of them (PH4306, M280, PF7315/Z1621, YP154, YP56, YP22/Z28761, YP7) many had no-call/s (YP17/Z8764, CTS1969, Y18947, PF7320, PF7370, Z38486, PH1089, PH2734, PH2514, PF7342, YP106).
A non-exhaustive check of novel/private SNPs was also done with no shared derived variant except an ambigous result for Hg19,b37 8197067, G->A, YFS090749, 1G- 1A+ which is derived in N53374/YF01501 Vinnytsia Ukraine 44A+. So unfortunately no more informative matches substream to M205 seem to exist currently to further reconstruct the origin and ancestry of 3DRIF-26 with the following conclusions:


the low-coverage and short chrY length of 3DRIF-26 could fail to detect a relation to some of this basal subhaplogroups, especially the samples derived for Y18947 and the gre-3 Greek Hallast et al 2014 sample also having restricted sequence lenght.
The lineage of 3DRIF-26 could have died out
Any sample being M205+ and negative for YP17/Z8764 and CTS1969 (including subgroups) is particularly interesting for further Y-NGS testing, especially if having British paternal lineage ancestry to exclude a relation to 3DRIF-26.
A NGS resequencing of 3DRIF-26 with higher read depth could facilitate the discovery of shared subhaplogroups of M205
A standard Y-STR DYS marker sequencing (at least a Y23 panel, preferably the Y37 FTDNA panel) could allow to scan Y-haplotype databases for possibly interesting matches



Well, now we have some new bigY tests so it would be nice to analyse them too as they are also CTS1969-


Discoveries and statements by Ted Kandell (OGF) (http://www.open-genomes.org/) about 3DRIF-26:
an extinct mtDNA H5* C5349T C6041T and H5* isn’t found in Arabia or Egypt.
[Davidski/Eurogenes (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/) qpAdm (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2015/03/modelling-yamnaya-with-qpadm.html):] His Anatolian Neolithic is 52.8%, extremely high, the same as Sardinians who are 50%-60%. His next best fit, pretty close, is Samaritan 94% Yoruba 6%. After that the chi squared gets much higher and the probability rapidly decreases.
Also, he wasn’t beheaded but his head was bashed in the “coup de grace” given to defeated gladiators. He wasn’t buried with grave goods, either.


“J2e” M314/M12 xM241 was found by Shen et al. (2004) in 2 of 20 (10%) of Yemenite Jews

Full article: https://j2-m172.info/2016/01/exogenous-roman-era-york-3drif-26-is-j2b1-m205-and-likely-middle-eastener/


It probably exists among Yemenite Jews, but that is normal as entire M205 is somewhat proto Semitic, and potentially pre Semitic.
Today generally, haplogroup is spread much or less in entire Middle East, but to be honest i barely know any Jew that belongs to J2b1.
Even tho it looks like its present in some isolated Jewish groups;

There are two samples that i know of, one is Mumbai Jew from India, and another is maybe Sephardi Jew from Spain (still need confirmation) but generally J2b1 is very rare, and almost none-existent among modern Jews, but its presence is highest among all other populations of Middle East

Mich Glitch
07-04-18, 18:48
Here is my nearest cousins. It's logical to see J-PF7321 and J-PF7321* only:

9970

Mich Glitch
07-04-18, 18:59
For STR markers I have only this:

9971

and that:

9972


All other samples are with genetic distance more than 0.25.

Mich Glitch
07-04-18, 19:05
There are two reasons why those samples shown above are the nearest to me even with different subclades:

1. Homoplasy.

2. Infinite alleles model. For big GD (genetic distances) more logically to use stepwise mutation model.

Mich Glitch
07-04-18, 19:11
The last word.

I find funny two things:

1. To attribute all J2b samples to Jews.

2. To attribute the origins of all possible subclades to Albania.

Mich Glitch
07-04-18, 19:27
0.1 GD (by Infinite alleles model) it's approximately 2000 YBP.

Mich Glitch
07-04-18, 19:30
0.08 it's about 1000 YBP.

Dema
07-04-18, 22:54
The last word.

I find funny two things:

1. To attribute all J2b samples to Jews.

2. To attribute the origins of all possible subclades to Albania.

Who attributed all J2b samples to Jews and who attributed all possible subclades to Albania?

Im not sure that we understood each other properly, perhaps an communication problem. Maybe my English is not clear enough.

I simply asked you did you consider more distant Jewish origin of your paternal line since that is one way how it might arrive to Poland as region has history with Jews. On the other hand i stated very clearly that J2b1 is almost none existent among modern Jews even tho we find it in some isolated Jewish groups like: Yemenite Jews, Sephardi or Mumbai Indian Jews.

Your line is for sure very interesting for research as it is mysterious.

Regarding Albania, we were talking about our maternal Ydna, so J2b2, i simply took a shoot on classifying your uncle based on STR markers. When his WGS arrives, you will see was i right or not.



For STR markers I have only this:

9971

and that:

9972


All other samples are with genetic distance more than 0.25.

cannot open files "Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator (https://www.eupedia.com/contact/)"

But i already seen your STRs as you gave me your FTDNA id. You have most diverse STRs, among the people within the PF7321+ and CTS1969-.
Which would suggest early separation, but still within the 6000 years TMRCA and still within our primary expansion after the bottleneck.

So most likely more distant Middle Eastern origin.

Dema
07-04-18, 23:05
Here is my nearest cousins. It's logical to see J-PF7321 and J-PF7321* only:

9970



There are two reasons why those samples shown above are the nearest to me even with different subclades:

1. Homoplasy.

2. Infinite alleles model. For big GD (genetic distances) more logically to use stepwise mutation model.


Interesting.. I will think about it, thanks for sharing!

Mich Glitch
08-04-18, 00:16
- I simply asked you did you consider more distant Jewish origin of your paternal line since that is one way how it might arrive to Poland as region has history with Jews.
- 6000 YBP. This is my subclade age. No Jews yet.

Mich Glitch
08-04-18, 00:21
Problem to insert images.
Next try.
3 links to images:

1 (http://i2.imageban.ru/out/2018/04/08/73f60af2ca87983c5614d11a4ed0600b.jpg).

2 (http://i1.imageban.ru/out/2018/04/08/2646dd149f07f7695cc585b10defa87b.jpg).

3 (http://i2.imageban.ru/out/2018/04/08/c877f77f10cf88e5a7c055f1c3e9afc0.jpg).

Dema
08-04-18, 18:14
Problem to insert images.
Next try.
3 links to images:

1 (http://i2.imageban.ru/out/2018/04/08/73f60af2ca87983c5614d11a4ed0600b.jpg).

2 (http://i1.imageban.ru/out/2018/04/08/2646dd149f07f7695cc585b10defa87b.jpg).

3 (http://i2.imageban.ru/out/2018/04/08/c877f77f10cf88e5a7c055f1c3e9afc0.jpg).


That French "closest" STR match should be due to convergence, as we know that he is PF7321>CTS1969>PH4306+ and you are PF7321+ and CTS1969-, however you should share a SNP or two with him as you do with entire J-PF7321 that is on Yfull.

Your closest matches should be these that you share most SNPs with or assumed shared, so PF7321, Oman, Yemen, Lebanon and Saudi but still pretty distant and most likely isolated. Also its possible that you are pumping groups TMRCA to 6000 years, even tho after you, Saudi sample also shows significant distance.

Mich Glitch
08-04-18, 18:27
I've received the results for J2b2. BigY + YFull (VCF).
Here is the tree (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z631/) (ID: YF13147).

*** This is not for J2b1 thread, but anyway.

Mich Glitch
08-04-18, 18:30
- most likely isolated
- Not necessary. It may be a rare subclade. That's all.

Mich Glitch
08-04-18, 18:38
Two different paradigms:

1. Isolated. I.e. there is a closed and stable autochthonous group.

2. Rare. Infrequent. No too much descendants. It could be from anywhere. Even something like this: Fertile Crescent - Lebanon - Egypt - Roman Empire - England - Poland. Who knows.

:)

Dema
08-04-18, 18:53
I've received the results for J2b2. BigY + YFull (VCF).
Here is the tree (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z631/) (ID: YF13147).

*** This is not for J2b1 thread, but anyway.


I think you owe me a drink, as i guessed the subclade before the bigY:


Im going little offtopic here, i would say your uncle is J2b2>Z1825>M241>L283>Z638>Z1296>Z1297>Z631+
Maybe J-Y29718 as it was already found in Poland.


While my uncle one is J2b2>Z1825>M241>L283>Z638>Z1296>Y20899>PH1751



Two different paradigms:

1. Isolated. I.e. there is a closed and stable autochthonous group.

2. Rare. Infrequent. No too much descendants. It could be from anywhere. Even something like this: Fertile Crescent - Lebanon - Egypt - Roman Empire - England - Poland. Who knows.

:)


I ment isolated from the rest of M205 samples. But still with closest matches in: Lebanon, Saudi, Qatar, Oman and Yemen.

But then again, strongest theory (backuped by modern people DNA and also ancient DNA) about M205 (TMRCA 6000 years) is that it has Fertile Crescent origin of expansion.
So as i already said earlier, there is no doubt that somewhere in the past you participated in ancient civilizations of Mesopotamia.

haplogroup_king
14-04-18, 07:17
New sample at YFULL from Palestine

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS1969/

Dema
15-04-18, 17:57
Found this paper, i think it is relevant for our Early Bronze Age I-II Ain Ghazal sample:

https://www.tandfonline.com/na101/home/literatum/publisher/tandf/journals/content/ylev20/1987/ylev20.v019.i01/007589187790212149/20151224/007589187790212149.fp.png_v03


https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1179/007589187790212149

haplogroup_king
15-04-18, 20:36
Ain Ghazal

1 Top View

https://www.google.ae/maps/place/Ayn+Ghazal,+Amman,+Jordan/@32.0001328,35.9787583,2501m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x151b60d9167f62bf:0x5 d81c404ad4c5a22!8m2!3d31.9987934!4d35.9802504 (https://www.google.ae/maps/place/Ayn+Ghazal,+Amman,+Jordan/@32.0001328,35.9787583,2501m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x151b60d9167f62bf:0x5 d81c404ad4c5a22!8m2!3d31.9987934!4d35.9802504)

2 Graveyard

http://books.openedition.org/ifpo/docannexe/image/7708/img-1.jpg (http://www.google.ae/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjV9NCh77zaAhUJnRQKHbUHChwQjRx6BAgAEAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.openedition.org%2Fifpo%2F77 08&psig=AOvVaw2s1UQvDeHKF_25WO1KnhqS&ust=1523901939843570)


3 Statue

http://www.ammanalyoum.com/images/c66d6b37c51d35daa8de9ba8f3f9a112.jpeg/300/300/0 (http://www.google.ae/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj2ioCQ8LzaAhUH0xQKHQOlCUUQjRx6BAgAEAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ammanalyoum.com%2Farticle%2F5 0767%2F%25D8%25A8%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D8%25B5%25 D9%2588%25D8%25B1-%25D9%2585%25D8%25AA%25D8%25AD%25D9%2581-%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D9%2584%25D9%2588%25D9%2581 %25D8%25B1-%25D9%258A%25D8%25B7%25D9%2584%25D8%25A8-%25D9%2585%25D9%2586-%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D8%25A7%25D8%25B1%25D8%25AF %25D9%2586-%25D8%25A7%25D8%25B3%25D8%25AA%25D8%25B9%25D8%25A7 %25D8%25B1%25D8%25A9-%25D8%25AA%25D9%2585%25D8%25AB%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584-%25D8%25B9%25D9%258A%25D9%2586-%25D8%25BA%25D8%25B2%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584-%25D9%2584%25D9%2585%25D8%25AF%25D8%25A9-5-%25D8%25B3%25D9%2586%25D9%2588%25D8%25A7%25D8%25AA-.html&psig=AOvVaw2s1UQvDeHKF_25WO1KnhqS&ust=1523901939843570)


4 DNA

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRMosKRWAAEdqZT.jpg:large

Dema
16-04-18, 17:04
3 Statue

http://www.ammanalyoum.com/images/c66d6b37c51d35daa8de9ba8f3f9a112.jpeg/300/300/0 (http://www.google.ae/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj2ioCQ8LzaAhUH0xQKHQOlCUUQjRx6BAgAEAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ammanalyoum.com%2Farticle%2F5 0767%2F%25D8%25A8%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D8%25B5%25 D9%2588%25D8%25B1-%25D9%2585%25D8%25AA%25D8%25AD%25D9%2581-%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D9%2584%25D9%2588%25D9%2581 %25D8%25B1-%25D9%258A%25D8%25B7%25D9%2584%25D8%25A8-%25D9%2585%25D9%2586-%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D8%25A7%25D8%25B1%25D8%25AF %25D9%2586-%25D8%25A7%25D8%25B3%25D8%25AA%25D8%25B9%25D8%25A7 %25D8%25B1%25D8%25A9-%25D8%25AA%25D9%2585%25D8%25AB%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584-%25D8%25B9%25D9%258A%25D9%2586-%25D8%25BA%25D8%25B2%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584-%25D9%2584%25D9%2585%25D8%25AF%25D8%25A9-5-%25D8%25B3%25D9%2586%25D9%2588%25D8%25A7%25D8%25AA-.html&psig=AOvVaw2s1UQvDeHKF_25WO1KnhqS&ust=1523901939843570)


These monuments are from Neolithic site, our J2b1 sample is from EBA I-II site that was discovered nearby, but its possible that there was cultural continuity:

A number of monumental lime plaster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lime_plaster) and reed statues (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue) dated to the Pre-pottery Neolithic B (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-pottery_Neolithic_B) period have been discovered in Jordan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan), at the site of Ayn Ghazal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Ghazal_(archaeological_site)). A total of 15 statues and 15 busts were discovered in 1983 and 1985 in two underground caches, created about 200 years apart.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Ain_Ghazal_Statues#cite_note-3)Dating to between the mid-7th millennium BC and the mid-8th millennium BC, the statues are among the earliest large-scale representations of the human form, and are regarded to be one of the most remarkable specimens of prehistoric art from the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B period.They are kept in the Jordan Museum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jordan_Museum) in Amman.


Something else to round up this story:

J2b1 = 16000 years old
Overall TMRCA = 6000 years
Oldest ancient sample = EBA I-II Ain Ghazal, Jordan, 4000 - 4500 years old.
Second oldest ancient sample = Lebanon, ancient Sidon (https://www.ancient.eu/sidon/) (Canaanite burial site (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan)) 3600 years old.
Highest diversity of J2b1 among modern people: Middle East.
Highest percentage of J2b1 among modern people: Cyprus (6%).

Yfull tree: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

Map: There is still no correct map of J2b1

Things are much clearer now, then they were like few years ago,, And story will further develop as more people will do WGS/bigY tests, and with additional ancient DNA testing.

Dema
16-04-18, 23:01
J2b1 TMRCA:

https://i.imgur.com/QgPhjku.jpg



Mesopotamia timeline:


https://i.imgur.com/LOHfE5l.jpg



https://www.ancient.eu/timeline/Mesopotamia/


General timeline:

https://i.imgur.com/gVZq3eQ.jpg

https://www.ancient.eu/timeline/

Dema
17-04-18, 17:09
Uruk period
The Uruk period (ca. 4000 to 3100 BC) existed from the protohistoric Chalcolithic to Early Bronze Age period in the history of Mesopotamia, following the Ubaid period and succeeded by the Jemdet Nasr period. Named after the Sumerian city of Uruk, this period saw the emergence of urban life in Mesopotamia. It was followed by the Sumerian civilization. The late Uruk period (34th to 32nd centuries) saw the gradual emergence of the cuneiform script and corresponds to the Early Bronze Age; it may also be called the Protoliterate period. It was during this period that pottery painting declined as copper started to become popular, along with cylinder seals.



Dating and periodization
Periodization is after archaeological layers at Uruk. Thus, Uruk XVIII–XIV are not part of the "Uruk period" proper but are comprised by the Ubaid period. The Uruk period proper corresponds to the layers Uruk XIV–IV, with the late phase Uruk IV lasting ca. 3300–3100 BC. This is followed by Uruk III, which reaches into the Early Dynastic period of Uruk ca. 2800 BC. The dating and periodization of the Late Uruk period is further clarified in connection with the beginning of the Jemdet Nasr period.



Uruk expansion
Around 3600 BC, during the Middle Uruk period, Uruk trade networks started to expand to other parts of Mesopotamia, and as far as North Caucasus. According to archaeologist Konstantine Pitskhelauri, this expansion started even earlier, at the end of the 5th millennium BC, and continued in the 4th millennium.


Large masses of Uruk migrants settled in the South, and later in the North Caucasus. The sites in this general area include Habuba Kabira in Syria, and Arslantepe in Turkey. Uruk expansion to the northeast included sites like Godin Tepe in Iran. Tepe Gawra, in northwest Iraq, is another important site with deep stratigraphy that includes the Uruk period in later layers. Hamoukar is a large site in northeastern Syria that has been recently excavated; it includes Uruk and pre-Uruk layers.


Uruk enclaves have also been identified at Tell Brak and Nineveh in northern Mesopotamia, and on the Syrian Euphrates at Qrayya, and Jebel Aruda. On the Euphrates in Anatolia, Uruk enclaves were found at Hassek Hoyuk, Samsat, and Tepecik (Elazığ Province, near Keban Dam).


https://i.imgur.com/RCl4RnJ.png

haplogroup_king
17-04-18, 18:56
https://youtu.be/7EkMmw71Zy4

Dema
25-05-18, 12:02
There have been some major changes all over Yfull. Some of you might check your clades to see if anything changed.

Regarding J-M205, we can see that Ukraine and Lebanon samples have been grouped under PF7321 with 6000 years TMRCA, then Saudi sample follows with 5100 years TMRCA and Oman and Yemen samples have been moved under with 2900 years TMRCA.

This pretty much fits with my previous calculations within this group. Also it could testify about this group having expansion from territory of modern Lebanon, Palestine, Saudi Arabia and then expanding more south to Yemen and Oman.

Then within CTS1969 we have Y22037 with 1200 years TMRCA (it will change, after Yfull upload), YP13 6000 years TMRCA, and Y22075 4500 years TMRCA. Also there is brother clade in Palestine with 6000 years TMRCA.

Regarding Balkan mainland branch (Y22059/Y22066), we can see that sample from Bosnia, RS, Lakic bigY was done and uploaded,
he is classified as Y22059* on Yfull and Y22066 on FTDNA. Then other two samples are Y22066>Y22063.
TMRCA went up to 1050 years. So a bit closer to our estimations of around 1200, 1300 years.

And last but not least, i have taken bigY test. Based on STR markers i already know that i am Y22066+, but it will be interesting to see bigY and Yfull analysis and perhaps learn something new.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

Dema
25-05-18, 12:10
Also bump for Maciamo, i think its time he takes a better look at J2b1. Many things changed and text on Eupedia about J2b1 should update too.

Mich Glitch
25-05-18, 18:44
I should be PF7321* because Y45447 is negative and CTS1969 negetive too (checked by YSEQ).

Dema
28-05-18, 18:44
I should be PF7321* because Y45447 is negative and CTS1969 negetive too (checked by YSEQ).


Can you explain, why should you be PF7321* since Y45447 and CTS1969 are negetive?

Mich Glitch
28-05-18, 19:22
Yes. Sure.

If you have at least one non-read low SNP (in my case Y45447 or CTS1969), you don't have * after SNP name.
So, I'm shown as PF7321 'cause my CTS1969 is not read by FTDNA. I've checked it in YSEQ. It is negative as Y45447 too.

I.e. I am PF7321*.

Mich Glitch
28-05-18, 19:26
Almost sure, that YF12115 has one or two non read SNPs.

Trojet
28-05-18, 19:54
Yes. Sure.
If you have at least one non-read low SNP (in my case Y45447 or CTS1969), you don't have * after SNP name.
So, I'm shown as PF7321 'cause my CTS1969 is not read by FTDNA. I've checked it in YSEQ. It is negative as Y45447 too.
I.e. I am PF7321*.

Correct!

I explained the issue with CTS1969 at the beginning of this thread a while ago (not read by BigY), but apparently some didn't bother to read or pay attention to it. Turns out the "Balkan Cluster" (J-Y22059,Y22066), is now correctly placed under CTS1969 at YFull, just like I said it should be.


The "Balkan Cluster" (J-Y22059,Y22066) phylogeny currently goes something like this: J2b1-M205>CTS1969>PH4306>Y22066. So this cluster is also under the CTS1969 branch. The reason why YFulll doesn't have it under CTS1969 is because this SNP is not well covered by the BigY, and the two samples have no-call for this SNP. Below CTS1969, the "Balkan Cluster" also shares PH4306 and Y22075 with scientific NGS samples from the Levant area, and a BigY sample from Qatar who hasn't uploaded to YFull, as can be seen here: http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b1
So the "Balkan Cluster" (J-Y22066,Y22059) does not form a "distinct" J2b1-M205 branch as suggested by the YTree (due to CTS1969 being no call and other samples not at YFull), but at the same time, currently it has no close relatives.

Dema
29-05-18, 00:48
Correct!

I explained the issue with CTS1969 at the beginning of this thread a while ago (not read by BigY), but apparently some didn't bother to read or pay attention to it. Turns out the "Balkan Cluster" (J-Y22059,Y22066), is now correctly placed under CTS1969 at YFull, just like I said it should be.

Yes its for a while like that but also new update recently happened, we were talking about Balkan branch back then, which is apparently more correctly placed now but here we are talking about his results.
So he is CTS1969- and Y45447- and it was nowhere said that if you dont have SNP or two correctly covered Yfull does not put * (asterisk) behind your terminal SNP.
Also how come that Yfull was able to then correctly place for example Balkan branch while it still cant confirm that he is negative for CTS1969 and perhaps some other SNP so it can assign him asterisk sign at least?

Is this only temporary situation on Yfull and will it change in future? Also what is needed for him to know more precise subclade? Does he has to wait for someone who is closer to him so his branch downstream of PF7321 could be identified after sharing a same SNP? Also can there be anything else found in his SNP list, isn't there a SNP to which only he is positive?

As you know im not expert in SNPs, i hope ill understand them better after my bigY arrives. This SNP coverage looks a bit messy, hopefully technology will improve in future.

haplogroup_king
29-05-18, 21:01
https://c.top4top.net/p_879b54131.jpg (https://up.top4top.net/)

Dema
31-05-18, 01:35
Almost sure, that YF12115 has one or two non read SNPs.


Going by STRs, i am much more sure about him that he is PF7321* then you are.
But going by logic you should be too. I only didnt understand technical situation by Yfull.


Yes. Sure.

If you have at least one non-read low SNP (in my case Y45447 or CTS1969), you don't have * after SNP name.
So, I'm shown as PF7321 'cause my CTS1969 is not read by FTDNA. I've checked it in YSEQ. It is negative as Y45447 too.

I.e. I am PF7321*.

I understand, thanks. Also i have been able to find some kind of explanation in Yfull faq that i believe has to do something with your results being shown temporary as they are:



* Not used for analysis - This phrase appears after certain SNPs located with the Check SNPs tool. These SNPs will not have a star rating because they are not used for sample analysis for a variety of reasons, such as being located in a homological region or because YFull has no, or only one, sample showing the SNP.


* Localization - the determination that a Novel SNP lies within a particular haplogroup. The phrase "Additional localizations for variant" followed by a red number, as used in the Ambiguous tab of Novel SNPs, means that the SNP was observed in one or more additional haplogroups.

Dema
02-07-18, 11:18
I got my BigY 500 results.

FTDNA has assigned me as Y22063. I have some novel and none matching variants. According to our project admin Trojet, i should form a new third parallel line with other two samples under Y22063, so i am Y22063* so far. TMRCA of Y22063 could increase. But to confirm all this i need to upload on Yfull, which i will do.

My BAM file is currently being generated.

Fustan
13-07-18, 20:38
Serbian, obviously.

Gash
14-07-18, 09:09
Serbian, obviously.
You have Serbian ancestry, obviously.

Fustan
14-07-18, 12:36
Keep stalking me boy. You will be disappointed when you find out I have no drugs on me, narcoman.

Gash
14-07-18, 15:46
^


Nobody is stalking you, junkie. Time to leave your mothers apartment.

Dema
14-07-18, 16:12
You have Serbian ancestry, obviously.


I think you are up to something as Dibran has also noticed lol:


I pointed out once to Fustan on Apricity that his autosomal was more Slavic shifted than normal for Albanians, and that is when he became vehement and started his drivel towards me. I also didn't know much about autosomal then(but we live and we learn).


Fustan clearly plots away from us, when looking autosomally. If i remember correctly he was one of most Slavic shifted, going way out of our Albanian plotting circle.
Hes closest match (autosomally which are his close relatives lol) is Bosnian Slavicized Vlach (J2b1), and there is also I2a close Serb match as you noticed.
He hangs with Serbs all the time in discord, he backups them, and he does not speak a word of Albanian language. He is outcast as much as one can be.
Even tho i have 18% East (Balto Slavic), i still plot within Albanian plotting circle (a bit Tuscany shifted), and nothing like this outcast.

Regarding him calling you Narco, i will just say lol because you are like 100x more athlete then he will ever be in his miserable life.

If Fustan likes it, i have nothing against his Serbian connection, but if possible leave me out of it, and dont infect my threads with your psychological problems. Rather go work, help you mom, help your neighbor then wasting life being sour and hating everything.
I wish if i could debate with him, or argue about anything, but guy is such a low-iqer that its impossible to argue anything with him. His intention is just to provoke and act like some gnom, which again proves he has nothing better to do in life lol.

Gash
14-07-18, 16:48
I think you are up to something as Dibran has also noticed lol:




Fustan clearly plots away from us, when looking autosomally. If i remember correctly he was one of most Slavic shifted, going way out of our Albanian plotting circle.
Hes closest match (autosomally which are his close relatives lol) is Bosnian Slavicized Vlach (J2b1), and there is also I2a close Serb match as you noticed.
He hangs with Serbs all the time in discord, he backups them, and he does not speak a word of Albanian language. He is outcast as much as one can be.
Even tho i have 18% East (Balto Slavic), i still plot within Albanian plotting circle (a bit Tuscany shifted), and nothing like this outcast.

Regarding him calling you Narco, i will just say lol because you are like 100x more athlete then he will ever be in his miserable life.

If Fustan likes it, i have nothing against his Serbian connection, but if possible leave me out of it, and dont infect my threads with your psychological problems. Rather go work, help you mom, help your neighbor then wasting life being sour and hating everything.
I wish if i could debate with him, or argue about anything, but guy is such a low-iqer that its impossible to argue anything with him. His intention is just to provoke and act like some gnom, which again proves he has nothing better to do in life lol.

He is a good Swedish boy. ;)

Fustan
14-07-18, 18:26
https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b1.png

Not only is this haplogroup most common and diverse among Serbs, but Serbian ethnographers who studied your village revealed to us that your family were Serbs who became Albanized because they converted to Islam.

You can cope how much you want and do all sorts of mental gymnastics but anyone who sees that 2+2=4 will know the truth of this haplogroup.

Also, to Dibran, my paternal line has been Albanian since the ethnos started, kidnapping slavic brides while yours (R1a) and Demas (J2b1) paternal ancestor came into our lands in Huno-Avaric cages speaking broken Serbian (Dema knowing this language fluently today ironically).

Bachus
14-07-18, 18:53
Even tho i have 18% East (Balto Slavic)

You are heavy Slavic influenced autosomally for Albanian standards! LOL

Fustan
14-07-18, 18:55
You are heavy Slavic influenced autosomally for Albanian standards! LOL

man I'm dying laughing, Dema is hilarious

how far will a man go to deny his paternal heritage?

Bachus
14-07-18, 19:11
man I'm dying laughing, Dema is hilarious

how far will a man go to deny his paternal heritage?

His haplogroup is more common among Serbs than among Albanians.
Serbs have 4-5% J2b-M205, and Albanians less than 1%.
I have seen Croatians and Bulgarians which carry J2b-M205.

This Croatian nationalistic activist is J2b-M205. His name is Frane Čirko.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6pV0CTp3A4
https://srbin.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/frano-cirko.jpg?lang=lat
https://srbin.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/frano-cirko.jpg?lang=lat
https://srbin.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/frono-cirko.jpg?lang=lat

Does he look like Dema? :thinking:

Both of them, Dema and this Croatian dude are descendants of this Vlach tribe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriči

Angela
14-07-18, 21:08
This thread is closed. Once again some of our Balkan members prove they can't communicate without personal attacks.

I will consider when to re-open it.

Dema
23-07-18, 18:12
https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b1.png

Not only is this haplogroup most common and diverse among Serbs,

J-M205 entered in Serb and South Slav ethos only since they managed to Slavicize their native territories in Montenegro and surrounding areas, in fight with Serbicized Drobnjaks, and in Late Middle Ages acording to Ottoman defter from 1475 following Krici tribe names. Just as many other clades did, probably as Albanian in origin E-v13>PH1246 also did.


Map that you quoted is J-M205, J1b1a, previously known as J2b1. This haplogroup is neither most common neither most diverse among Serbs as you say. All Serb samples have brother clades with higher TMRCA in Palestine, Qatar, Jordan, Armenia. Most of them have TMRCA of 800 years and no Slavic relatives anywhere in the world going upstream the genetic tree. If you would bother to read as was already explained many times on Foleja (http://www.foleja.net/index.php?topic=371.msg1152#msg1152 also here http://www.foleja.net/index.php?topic=14.msg5371#msg5371 ) but also in this thread, rather then being barely interested, you would understand these things. J2-M205/J2b1a is most common in Cypruss, 6 per cent according to public / annonymus researches. Also its found in entire Middle East all the way south, in Oman and Yemen. This map showing Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Egypt like there is no J2-M205 is just lack of information avialable also probably one of first tries of Maciamo to make more precize map of this haplogroup.
Actually we have Albanian found in both Gheg area of Albania, and Tosk area, also me in Kosovo. Where these 3 Albanians have higher diversity then all Serbian J-M205 sampels.


J2-M205 is most diverse in Middle East, where practically all major clades have Middle Eastern samples that split at some point. Two oldest M205 ancient DNA were found in Middle East, Jordan and Lebanon. https://j2-m172.info/2016/10/possibly-j2b1-m205-basal-structure-defined-cts1969-cts5338-yp13-ph4306-ph1089-y22066/


Serbs were overhyping this haplogroup among them for some time, but after bigY test and more Y67s it was clear its recent arrival among them. Haplogroup is not distributed among Serbs or South Slavs, either on Balkans as this map suggests but rather very isolated in two hot spots, Croatian Krajina known for Vlach population, and Montenegro known for Albanian and Latin speaking population. As mentioned above J-M205 is Middle Eastern native, and not Serbian. Even tho there is more groups in Balkan, looks like this one arrived recently thru Byzantine provinces of Middle East. Most likely Lebanon, Palestine and surroundings.

I form brother clade to all these assimilated Vlachs (Y22066), where separation time happened probably around 1000 years ago (waiting Yfull to finish). Which is time when these people were Byzantine Romans or Latin speaking Montenegrins so Vlachs at best. None of them falls into my sublcade inside of Y22063, and Serbian TMRCA cannot be confirmed in my case.



but Serbian ethnographers who studied your village revealed to us that your family were Serbs who became Albanized because they converted to Islam.
You can cope how much you want and do all sorts of mental gymnastics but anyone who sees that 2+2=4 will know the truth of this haplogroup.


It is not "coping", but going by facts, its simple STRs, SNPs, genetic distance and history. Not that i want to degrade you, but to be honest it is not something that you proven so far to understand very well. Better if you hanged and asked questions in Foleja, then in discord with Serbs.

In my region but also wider my family as brotherhood were probably among the first Islam acceptors, which allowed them to take control over lands. We later joined with clanish arriving Catholic Albanians, but they were for sure not alien to us, neither we to them. Later it become fully Muslim community, but it was ethnically pure Albanian. Only Albanian language was spoken. No one becomes Albanian because he becomes Muslim lol.

Book is issued by ethographer that you mention in year 1930, where it had to get thru vast Yugoslavian anti Albanian propaganda and cenzorship. Ethographer (Urosevic) just as his books claims that Kosovo was 100 % ethnically Serbian prior to 17 century, prior to North Albanian clanish Gheg expansion supported by Ottomans. Also he describes Albanians as thief's and animals. Therefore ethnographer was only recording arriving Albanians that emigrated from North Albania into Kosovo as Albanians. All others were put in Serb category. Truth is that there was a good portion of Catholic Albanians. But also even more Orthodox Albanians and Vlachs, with Slavic names due to their prior Bulgarian but also later Serbian Orthodox church but they never spoken Serb language at home which at the end defines their ethnicity. There was a good portion of Kosovar Albanians that joined with arriving clans and my family is just one of these cases.

Serbian historians argue that all Kosovo Albanians that do not belong to clan are Albanised Serbs. My family is nothing special in that book, as there is great deal of Kosovar Albanians recorded as Serbs in that book, in fact all families that lived in Kosovo prior to 17 century were recorded as Serbs with shady or no explanation at all. In my case, they concluded that i am from old family therefore i was Orthodox so that was enough for them. I am just the first of them tested. As genetic results say, maybe i cannot yet prove that i was Albanian long ago (because of my rare line, and not yet many Albanians tested), which is not even relevant in this case, but what i can prove is that my line was never Serbian neither Serb speaking.

Due to a genetic fact that only i have medium mutation markers DYS389II 27 and DYS448 20, and only i identify with Albanians, while none of them has these values there and not much variations there and none of them identifies with Albanians. Even tho Serbs tested 10x more people then Albanians did. Simply split between me and Serbs happened 1000 years ago, when they were not Serbs, and not in last 200 years like Serbian ethnographer suggests. Krici the Latin speaking tribe is most likely brother clade to me, Serbs assimilating them does not mean that i am also automatically Serb lol.




Also, to Dibran, my paternal line has been Albanian since the ethnos started, kidnapping slavic brides while yours (R1a) and Demas (J2b1) paternal ancestor came into our lands in Huno-Avaric cages speaking broken Serbian (Dema knowing this language fluently today ironically).

At times when my Roman Levantine ancestor arrived both Illyrians and Slavs were put in Avar cages, i have been thinking about it. He must have found entire Balkan savage and rude at that time, just as i find it today :)
To be honest Avars were no joke, good that we got rid of them.


His haplogroup is more common among Serbs than among Albanians.
Serbs have 4-5% J2b-M205, and Albanians less than 1%.


I have explained everything to you since you contacted me on private, dont post here since it was obvious you knowledge regarding this haplogroup and facts were very weak.
Even tho i explained you TMRCA, clades and separations you still make same mistakes in conclusions. Simply as i understand you think that all Y22066 had to be Serb at one point. Which is ridiculous.

You tell me on private that i should listen to Petar Demic, Nebojsa Novakovic, Fustan and Dibran, while its three guys whos genetic results were at some point analysed by me.
Fustans results i recently analysed on Foleja, Dibrans results i analysed on our FTDNA page and on anthrogenica, also Nebojsha results since he was not understanding simple phylogeny when looking at Yfull lol.
Dibran is good guy and fast learning, i dont recall he ever mentioned J2b1, also give my best regards to Petar Demic. Its time he accepts facts also, i was telling him that he should do autosomal long ago since its also important and he was saying that its useless only Ydna matters, as i see that you are into autosomals, maybe you can explain him that autosomal is very interesting and not usless as he thinks.

If ill listen to anyone it will be Albanian admins Flor and Leki, also ill listen to myself lol, and not these that you mentioned. TBH Fustan is among least knowledgeable people in our project, why the hell should i ever listen to him?



Here are my FTDNA matches, i dont see a single Serb there. Calculating distance, these that i match (1000 years ago) were not Serbs at that time. Tomorrow they can become Chinese just as they recently become Serbs, will that make me Chinese also?


https://i.imgur.com/aAy0pBK.png

Dema
23-07-18, 18:17
Also for these that want to better understand Kosovo history, North Albanian clans, Orthodox and Catholic Kosovar Albanians, but also later Muslim ones, also events that followed its best for begging to read Noel Malcolm book, British academic and historian: Kosovo, A Short History.

I have retyped important part from his book regarding this discussion:


Early Ottoman Kosovo, 1450s-1580s
By the time of Patriarchate was re-established at Peć, the town of Peć itself may already have gained an absolute majority of Muslims. At the same time, there is an increasing volume of evidence that parts of Western Kosovo had a significant Albanian population, evidence which goes beyond anything that can be demonstrated for the medieval period. Some modern Albanian scholars have put these phenomena together - the growth of Islam and the apparent growth of an Albanian population - to argue that what er are seeing in both cases is the emergence of a previously invisible mass of ethnic Albanians, who had been disguised in the records under Slav Orthodox names. It is claimed that the loss of authority by the Peć Patriarchate in this area between 1455 and 1557 had made t possible for these Albanian to detach themselves from Serbian control; and that white ethnic Serbs would have felt a continuing (and, after 1557, a revived) attachment to their Church which would have prevented the from turning to Islam, the ethnic Albanians would have felt no such scruples about adopting this new religion. Thus, it is suggested, the people who became Muslims were nearly all of them ethnic Albanians, and the creation of a Muslim majority was the same time merely the revelation of an already existing Albanian majority.

Some aspects of this argument are unconvincing on a priori grounds. Ethnic Albanian are unlikely to have felt estranged from the Serbian Church merely because it was not their 'national' Church; this is to project a modern idea of 'national' loyalties a little too far into the past. Orthodox Albanians in southern Albania and Greece, for example, remained loyal to the Greek Church and its liturgy for many generations, even though they may spoken only Albanian in the home. Nor, conversely, were Slavs incapable of converting to Islam: it was happening all the time in the neighboring territories of Macedonia and Novi Pazar, as well as in Bosnia and Hercegovina. (As early as 1580 the 6,000-odd households of the Novi Pazar district were almost entirely Muslim.) Many of Albanian names which crop up in the early Ottoman registers for Kosovo are Catholic Albanian Christian names, such as 'Gjin' (john) and 'Doda' (a diminutive of Dominic); and it is not clear why Albanian who had long been Serbian Orthodox should have regarded the Catholic Church, with its Latin liturgy and Italian-trained priests, as more deserving of 'national' loyalty than a Church based in their own locality.

On all these grounds, one might feel tempted to reject this argument entirely. Those who do so (and this includes almost all Serbian historians) explain the growth of an Albanian population in Kosovo during the early Ottoman period in terms of physical immigration: it is suggested that Albanian from the Malësi were encouraged by the Ottomans to settle in Kosovo, that many of these turned to Islam to gain advantages of superior status, and that those Slavs who became Muslims were not merely Islamicized but, sooner or later, Albanianized as well.

Although the Albanian historians argument seems unconvincing for general reasons, it nevertheless comes buttressed with some intriguing evidence from the Ottoman registers. The Ottoman officials usually noted which heads of the family were 'new arrivals' in their places of the residence: out of 121 new arrivals in the nahiye of Peć in 1485, the majority had Slav names. In the sancak of Prizren in 1591, only five new arrivals out of forty-one bore Albanian names; and in a group of Kosovo towns in the 1580s and 1590s there were twenty-five new Albanian immigrants and 133 with Slav names - several of them described as coming from Bosnia. This evidence counts strongly against the idea a mass immigration from northern Albania. Other more general arguments against that idea are based of relative population sizes and rates of growth. The population of Kosovo during this period was much bigger than that northern and central Albanian, and its rate of growth was actually lower. This is not what one would expect if a large overflow from the Albanian Malësi were flooding into Kosovo. All arguments which depend on identifying Slav or Albanian names are of course subject to doubts about whether the names really did indicate ethnic-linguistic identity - which is, of course, one of the key points at issue. In a previous discussion of this question it was suggested that although names are not very trustworthy in any particular case, the broad pattern probably does indicate both the nature of the dominant culture and the direction of flow of any tendencies to assimilation.On that basis it is reasonable to say that a Serbian Orthodox culture was overwhelmingly dominant in Eastern Kosovo: the first Ottoman register, of 1455, yields only a small minority of Albanian names, and many of these involve an Albanian-named father and a Slav Orthodox-named son ('Radislav, son of Djon'; Radovan , son of Djin'). 'Arnaud', which suggests that their Albanian identity was a distinguishing feature, setting them apart from the most od the surrounding population. In the 1570s there was a mahalle (quarter) of Janjevo called 'Arbanas'; roughly half of its heads of families had Slav or mixed Slav-Albanian names. According to some Albanian historians, this shows that many apparent Slavs were really Albanian-speaking Albanians. Simpler explanation, surely, would be that the small Albanian minority in Janjevo was gradually being assimilated to the Serbian-speaking majority.

On the other hand, there is clear evidence of Orthodox names appearing in Albanian-language forms - which implies that adherence to the Orthodox Church did not necessarily involve assimilation to a Serbian-language culture. While the majority of the Albanian names in Western Kosovo were Catholic, a significant minority were Orthodox, including several of the fifteen Orthodox families that constituted the entire Orthodox population of Peć in the 1590s. (Also in Western Kosovo in this period were 'Gjon, son of an Orthodox priest', and 'Gjonja, an Orthodox monk'). Again, Albanian historians argue from this that most of the Orthodox population in Kosovo was in fact Albanian; it would surely be simpler to suppose the the majority of the Orthodox (who do have Slav names) were Serbian-speaking and a minority Albanian-speaking, and that the Albanians were not assimilated linguistically because there was also a significant population of Catholic Albanians in Western Kosovo - as the other Albanian names clearly show.

The evidence scrupulously presented by one leading Albanian historian, Selami Pulaha, does not really support the argument which he then tries to build on it. in 1591, for example, in the nahiye of Hoça (north of Prizren), there were 883 heads of family with Slav or other orthodox names, 196 with mixed Albanian-Slav names and 248 with purely Albanian names; Pulaha's conclusion is that the area was 'completely Albanian'. A group of Kosovo towns in the same period yields 330 purely Slav Orthodox names and 217 mixed Albanian-Slav or purely Albanian; Pulaha deduces that the urban population was 'almost completely Albanian'. Similarly, the claim that only Albanians became Muslims can be argued only on the basis of the prior assumption that all people with Slav names were really Albanians. Of the Muslims of Hoça in 1591, fifty-four had Albanian names and nineteen Slav names; of those in the Has district (near Gjakova) in 1571, 166 had Albanian names and 37 Slav names. What this suggests is not that Slavs never became Muslims, but that a higher proportion of Albanians did so; and the reason for that catholic Albanians were even less well supplied with priests in the early Ottoman period than they had been under Serbian rule. What a straightforward reading of this evidence would suggest is that there were significant reservoirs of a mainly Catholic Albanian-speaking population in parts of Western Kosovo; and evidence from the following century suggests that many of these eventually became Muslims. Whether Albanian-speakers were a majority in Western Kosovo at this time seems very doubtful, and it is clear that they were only a small minority in the east. On the other hand, it is also clear that the Albanian minority in Eastern Kosovo predated the Ottoman conquest.

Finally, one other social process was taking place in this period which is also relevant to arguments about the migration of Albanians into Kosovo: the formation of the northern Albanian clans. As was mentioned in the first chapter, these clans appear to have been formed out of groups of pastoral families in the Malësi from the late Middle Ages onward: the main stimulus must have been the requirement of self-protection after the old system of powerful land-owning families (Balshas, Dukagjins, and so on) had been broken up by the Ottoman invasions and the disruptions of the fifteenth-century revolts. Dome of the oldest clans preserve detailed family trees in their oral tradition, going back to founder-ancestors in the fourteenth or fifteenth centuries; other were formed from sub-branches of these older clans.

The key development, it seems, was the adaptation of the social structures of pastoral life to the purposes of territorial self-defenses, with several of the clans of the northern Malësi, the process by which vëllazëris (brotherhoods) came together to form clans can be traced through Venetian and Ottoman documents, to the period between 1455 and 1485: what happens in these cases was that the members of the dominant brotherhood would impose their name on the whole clan, and on the territory which the clan defended. And at some time in the sixteenth century the Ottoman authorities gave up even trying to impose their normal administrative or feudal system in those areas, letting the clans run their own affairs in virtual 'zones of self-government' instead. Curiously, the development of the clan system in Scotland was taking breakdown central power and feudal structures in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries. Scottish clans also developed the idea of common ancestry: 'at first this relationship might clearly be seen as fictitious or honorary, but in time the metaphor of kinship tended to be converted into belief that real blood kinship existed.

Thus, increasingly, Albanian from the Malësi would bear the name of their clan as a kind of surname: Berisha, Këlmendi, Shala and so on.There are many people with these names in modern Kosovo, and it is clear that, from the early seventeenth century onward at least some of their ancestors must have come into Kosovo as immigrants from the Malësi. ('At least some' is a necessary qualifications, because we cannot assume that the process of agglomeration - of people joining a clan and taking its name - never took place on Kosovo soil.) However, there are also many Kosovo Albanian who do not bear clan names. Serbian writers sometimes argue that all these Albanian must therefore be Albanianized Serbs, as if all genuine Albanians would originally have belong to clans. but since we know that there were non-clan Albanian in Kosovo as early as the fifteenth century, that clans were only formed in areas which (unlike Kosovo) lacked governmental security, and indeed that many of the clans in the Malësi were still only in the process of formation at that time, this particular version of the argument about 'Albanianized Serbs' can simply be dismissed.

pages 111 - 115, Kosovo, a short history. N. Malcolm.

Dema
23-07-18, 18:41
Also regarding Krici tribe, as Serbs labeled this entire cluster, problem is that their Krici surnamed members dont have any serious STR or SNP test.
Therefore they cant even identify Krici cluster. My advice is to test Krici surnames members at higher resolution, before bringing conclusions.

As it looks our overall TMRCA goes prior to Krici tribe, therefore expansion could have happened before Krici tribe. But probably not far away from Montenegro and surrounding areas.

Bachus
24-07-18, 01:18
Dema's ancestors before albanization were Serbs. This is the fact.
Dema deny own Serbian origin and claim that his ancestors were Vlachs.

Dema has 18% Eastern Europe autosomally because his ancestors were Serbs and that is heritage from Dema's Serbian ancestors.

Dema
24-07-18, 04:51
Dema's ancestors before albanization were Serbs. This is the fact.

Repeating something 1000 times like parrot does not make it a fact. For facts you need facts. There is not a single genetic fact, even if i wanted to believe this, as explained above genetic research does not agree with it.


Dema deny own Serbian origin and claim that his ancestors were Vlachs.

I am clearly Albanian, i say we were Vlachs because when looking genetically, looks like we arrived thru Roman Empire Fertile Crescent provinces and surroundings. Also Krici tribe that is Y22066+, are also recorded as Montenegrin Latin speaking tribe, so Vlachs.
All tested Y22066 so far were Latin speakers at one point, that is the only thing what connects them with other Vlachs like Aromuns.
Actually Y22066, is what separates Serbs in Croatian Krajina and RS in Bosnia from Croats and Bosnjaks where they are historically known as Vlachs, its Vlach element in them :) But also significant E-v13. E-v13, which can be directly from Albanians.


Dema has 18% Eastern Europe autosomally because his ancestors were Serbs and that is heritage from Dema's Serbian ancestors.

I remember we already discussed this :bored: - https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/36038-New-map-of-Slavic-Y-DNA/page8?p=549366&viewfull=1#post549366
Serbs dont Plot with Croats and Slovens because of Albanian, Vlach and Bulgarian influence is pulling them South.

I plot just fine with Albanians:
(Eurogenes v2 K15)
http://i68.tinypic.com/s3kaqw.jpg

Bachus
24-07-18, 06:13
Again: Krajina Serbs are the most norther shifted Serbs.
More northern shifted = less Vlach influence, deal with it!
Krajina Serbs ploting same northern as Bosnian muslims and Croatians.

There are Kriči among Bosnian Muslim such as for example muslim family Tetarić from Banja Luka J2b1-M205 (cyrillic Тетарић)
https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=1193.msg95850#msg95850

New Krajinian Serbs R1a
Bižić (Бижић) from Kordun
https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=1193.msg95853#msg95853
Obradović (cyrillic Обрадовић) from Bruvno (cyrillic Брувно) in Lika
https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=1193.msg95833#msg95833
Sudar and Roksandić (cyrillic Судар / Роксандић)
https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=1193.msg95861#msg95861
Roksandić is from Banija or Slavonia. Sudar is Krajina Serbs we don't know from which region yet. Surname Sudar exist among Serbs from Dalmatia, Lika and Kordun.

Krajina Serbs have more R1a than Serbs from Serbia.

There are also plenty of new results of Krajina Serbs which are I2a in the last 7-8 days.

Wonomyro
24-07-18, 11:37
@Dema, we should take into account that there are two distinct Serb populations, autosomally.

One is Serbs from Serbia. These are the "real" Serbs as they origin from the population of medieval Serbia. During the Ottoman invasion some of them moved north into Syrmia and Banat. These Serbs hold significant paleobalkan admixture as they plot near Romanians and Albanians.

Second group is the Serb minority of Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, popularly called "western Serbs". In the past they were called "Vlachs". However, autosomally they can’t be distinguished from their neighbors: Croats and Bosniaks.

So "western" Serbs probably can't be of "real" Vlach origin because they plot away from Romanians (Vlachs) and Albanians. However, it seem that they partly descend from Vlachs as they poses an elevated frequency of E1b haplogroup, comparing to Croats and Bosniaks. However, that "Vlach" signal was not sufficient to significantly change their autosomal profile.

@Bachus, your argument that - the “western Serbs” can’t be of Vlach origin because they are autosomally distant from Vlachs - is correct, but neither can they be of Serb origin, using the same criteria. ;)

Bachus
24-07-18, 17:42
@Dema, we should take into account that there are two distinct Serb populations, autosomally.

One is Serbs from Serbia. These are the "real" Serbs as they origin from the population of medieval Serbia. During the Ottoman invasion some of them moved north into Syrmia and Banat. These Serbs hold significant paleobalkan admixture as they plot near Romanians and Albanians.

Second group is the Serb minority of Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, popularly called "western Serbs". In the past they were called "Vlachs". However, autosomally they can’t be distinguished from their neighbors: Croats and Bosniaks.

So "western" Serbs probably can't be of "real" Vlach origin because they plot away from Romanians (Vlachs) and Albanians. However, it seem that they partly descend from Vlachs as they poses an elevated frequency of E1b haplogroup, comparing to Croats and Bosniaks. However, that "Vlach" signal was not sufficient to significantly change their autosomal profile.

@Bachus, your argument that - the “western Serbs” can’t be of Vlach origin because they are autosomally distant from Vlachs - is correct, but neither can they be of Serb origin, using the same criteria. ;)

His claim about Vlachs origin of Krajina Serbs is nonsense.
If he said that Montenegrins or Serbs from southern/eastern Serbia are of Vlach origin this would make more sense but still not be completely true.
We don't have samples of medieval Serb to compared to modern Serbs. Migtht be that western Serbs are closer autosomally to medieval Serbs than Serbs from Serbia.
Western Serbs are autosomally closer to Croatians not just than to Romanians/Bulgarians but also than to Serbs from Serbia and Montenegrins.

E-V13 amomg Bosnian Serbs is about 14% and anong Krajina Serbs 12-13%. Both Bosnian and Krajina Serbs have less E-V13 than Serbs from Serbia and quite less than Montenegrins.
Among Krajina and Bosnian Serbs the strongesst is I2a, than R1a and E-V13 is on the third place. Among Serbs from Serbia I2a is the strongest and R1a and E-V13 are prertty elevated. In some regions of Serbia is stronger R1a and ib some E-V13, but if we look whole Serbia these haplogropups has very similar %.

Wonomyro
24-07-18, 19:06
We don't have samples of medieval Serb to compared to modern Serbs. Migtht be that western Serbs are closer autosomally to medieval Serbs than Serbs from Serbia.

Might be, but we can't judge based on something that is just a speculation.

But you know that the Serbs from Serbia are the majority of all Serbs. In case you were right, and the Serbs from Serbia realy changed after the medieval times, then what genetic signal, and how strong, could have been to shift almost entire Serbian population to another autosomal cluster? If you take a look into the PCA plot, you could see that the gap is quite big.

Could we identify that genetic signal betwen 15th and 19th century?

Wonomyro
24-07-18, 19:30
His claim about Vlachs origin of Krajina Serbs is nonsense.

Well, the fact is that these people were called "Vlach" in almost all historical sources. On the other hand, it is also the fact that genetics do not see them as "real" Vlachs. Maybe only part of them were of a real Vlach origin, and others were just locals who switched to the Vlach lifestyle or got the Vlach status.

So what is the real origin of Croatian Vlachs? If we favour genetic and linguistic criteria, the answer is simple.

Bachus
24-07-18, 20:22
Well, the fact is that these people were called "Vlach" in almost all historical sources. On the other hand, it is also the fact that genetics do not see them as "real" Vlachs. Maybe only part of them were of a real Vlach origin, and others were just locals who switched to the Vlach lifestyle or got the Vlach status.

So what is the real origin of Croatian Vlachs? If we favour genetic and linguistic criteria, the answer is simple.

They were just in a "vlach status", same as Cathlolic Bunjevci. They are genetically far away from real ethnic Vlachs such as Aromanians.
Even Krajina Serbs who are E and J were not Latin speakers when they arrived to Krajina. They were Serbian speakers (and autosomally same as I2a/R1a Serbs) because they assimilated in the middle age by I2a and R1a Serbs.
Interesting thing about genetic of Krajina Serbs is the presence of R1a-Z280>Y2613. This haplogroup almost does not exist among Serb east of Vrbas river, but among Serbs west of Vrbas river has solid %.
Krajina Serbs mostly originater from eastern Herzegovina. But there are significant % of natives of Donji Kraji (western Bosnia) among them. Natives of Donji Kraji lingustiocally were assimilated by eastern Herzegovinians in western Bosnia. Natives of western Bosnia were ikavians and eastern Herzegovinians were ijekavians. Many Serbian Krajina families originated from natives of western Bosnia and they were ikavians in the past. Ancestors of Nikola Tesla originated from Kupres, they are cousins with Serbian families Svitlica, Orelj and Milinović from Kupres. Slava of all of them is Đurđevdan.

In this document from the year 1596 Serbian leaders from Pounje (western Bosnia) wrote to Austrians. Reason is fight against the Ottoman. Serbs from Pounje wanted to be allies of Austrians against the Ottomans.
It's written in cyrillyc in ikavian dialect. These Serbs were in the "vlach status" but Austrian call them Serben (Serbs).
Bishof Radoslav und undere Hautpleute der Serben von Pounje schreiben Erzherzog Ferdinand wegen gemeinsamer Aktion gege die Türken - Bishof Radoslav from Pounje and other leaders of Serbs write to herzeg Ferdinand because of common action against the Turks.
As you can see Serbs from western Bosnia were in a "vlach status" but their real ethnicity were Serbian and Austrian confirmed this. Dema pretend that don't understand the difference between "vlach status" (social category) and Vlach as nation - Latin speaking paleo-Balkanites.
https://i.imgur.com/Cy9cJR5.jpg

Wonomyro
24-07-18, 21:33
They were just in a vlach status, same as Bunjevci. They are genetically far away from eaql Vlachs such as Aromanians.
Even Krajina Serbs who are E and J were not Latin speakers when they arrived to Krajina. They were Serbian soeakers because they serbized in middle age by I2a and R1a Serbs.
Krajina Serbs mostly origuinater from eastern Herzegovina. But there are significant % of natives of Donji Kraji (western Bosnia) among them. Natives of Donji Kraji lingustiocally were assimilated by eastern Herzegovinians in western Bosnia. Natives of western Bosnia were ikavians and eastern Herzegovinians were ijekavians. Many Serbian Krajina families originated from natives of western Bosnia and they were ikavians in the past. Ancestors of Nikola Tesla originated from Kupres, they are cousins with Serbian families Svitlica, Orelj and Milinović. Slava of all of them is Đurđevdan.

These natives in Donji Kraji, even the ones from Herzegovina were not called "Serbs" before they became Serb Orthodox. Present day Western Bosnia was even called "Turkish Croatia" long after the Ottoman occupation, only later to be renamed to "Bosnian Krajina". Many of the locals converted to Islam, some became Serb Orthodox due to the lack of Catholic priests and monks after the destruction of the churches.

It is not surprise that the people of that area are genetically and linguistically closest to present day Croats because the change of the religion does not affect genes. Only those who converted to Serb Orthodoxy later called themselves Serbs (19th century). In a similar manner the Muslim population of the area started to call themselves Bosniaks (as of 1992).

Wonomyro
24-07-18, 21:55
In this document from the year 1596 Serbian leaders from Pounje (western Bosnia) wrote to Austrians. Reason is fight against the Ottoman. Serbs from Pounje wanted to be allies of Austrians against the Ottomans.
It's written in cyrillyc in ikavian dialect. These Serbs were in the "vlach status" but Austrian call them Serben (Serbs).
Bishof Radoslav und undere Hautpleute der Serben von Pounje schreiben Erzherzog Ferdinand wegen gemeinsamer Aktion gege die Türken - Bishof Radoslav from Pounje and other leaders of Serbs write to herzeg Ferdinand because of common action against the Turks.
As you can see Serbs from western Bosnia were in a "vlach status" but their real ethnicity were Serbian and Austrian confirmed this. Dema pretend that don't understand the difference between "vlach status" (social category) and Vlach as nation - Latin speaking paleo-Balkanites.
https://i.imgur.com/Cy9cJR5.jpg

The text is written in ikavian (Croatian) dialect. Real Serbs were using different language ("Old Serbian").

Hopefully I can read it and in the text it says: "vlaški sinovi" ("Vlach sons"). It is obvious that they called themselves Vlachs, not Serbs. In the original record it was written - "Wallachen" (bottom of the page).

Next indicative word is “biškup” which means “bishop” in Croatian. It is typical Catholic and Croatian word, never used by Serb Orthodox Church.


The German text which "translates" vlachs to "Serbs" is obviously from more recent times. Some western sources, especially Austrian, were "classifing" all Cyrilic texts as "Serbian" according to the level of their "knowledge".

Bachus
24-07-18, 22:56
The text is written in ikavian (Croatian) dialect. Real Serbs were using different language ("Old Serbian").

Hopefully I can read it and in the text it says: "vlaški sinovi" ("Vlach sons"). It is obvious that they called themselves Vlachs, not Serbs. In the original record it was written - "Wallachen" (bottom of the page).

The German text which "translates" vlachs to "Serbs" is obviously from more recent times. Some western sources, especially Austrian, were "classifing" all Cyrilic texts as "Serbian" according to their "knowledge".

That is the knowledge of 19th century. Serbs on this forum stacked in 19th century.

They were proud to be in a "vlachs status" and because of that they called thmselves "vlach sons." In that time "vlach status" = more freedom.
Serben is not written in recent time this is your fantasy. Austrians are not "Serbian mythomans" to falsify history.
People from that document were Orthodox Serbs and their language were Serbian shtokavian ikavian. In the document name of priest is Radoslav, and names of other Serbian leaders are Miloš, Dojčin, Rak, Bogdan, Vranješ, Manojlo, Tomaš, Radohna, Radoje, Živko, Vojin.. there is no Vlach names. All of this names are Serbian, only Tomaš can be also Croatian.
People from document have nothing to do with real Latin speking paleo-Balkanite Vlachs.

Question for you: This people were not real Latin speaking Vlachs, it's but obvious. What they were Serbs or Orthodox Croatians?

Bachus
24-07-18, 23:16
Priest Radoslav called themself first protopop and than biškup.
Priest Radoslav was an Orthodox priest and leader of 30 priest. Od hristijanskih sinov, mi protopopa Radoslav, biškup pounskih i poglavnik i zapovidnik trideset popov i pravitelj hristijanske vire...
Document is written on cyrillic and Croatians never used cyrillic, especially not in year 1596.
In 16th century a lot of Orthodox Serbs were ikavians in western Bosnia, later they ijekavized by eastern Herzegovinian Serbs. Until 25 years ago ikavian Serbs still exist around Kupres, Livno and in some parts of Dalmatia.
My origin is from Dalmatia, from 100% Serbian village. My ancestor often used the phrase " Isu krsta mi" such is written in this document by priest Radoslav.

Wonomyro
24-07-18, 23:22
They were proud to be in a "vlachs status" and because of that they called thmselves "vlach sons."

That is nonsense.


Serben is not written in recent time this is your fantasy.

Then, when is the German text written? There is the source mention below the fascimile which mentions Wallachians.



Austrians are not "Serbian mythomans" to falsify history.

Oh, yes, they were financing the Serbian language reform in 19th century. They were actively creating the Serb nation according to their agenda. They were financing the creation of the first Serbian dictionary based on the older Croatian ones. Read more about the work of Jernej Kopitar and others who used their power and "discrete right" to decide what should be called "Serbian" and what not.


People from that document were Orthodox Serbs and their language were Serbian shtokavian ikavian. In the document name of priest is Radoslav, and names of other Serbian leaders are Miloš, Dojčin, Rak, Bogdan, Vranješ, Manojlo, Tomaš, Radohna, Radoje, Živko, Vojin.. there is no Vlach names. All of this names are Serbian, only Tomaš can be also Croatian.
People from document have nothing to do with real Latin speking paleo-Balkanite Vlachs.

The names are Slavic, what makes you think that they can't be Croatian? Ikavian dialect is Croatian without any doubt. The Croatian medieval texts were mostly written in ikavian dialect, also in ijekavian. Serbian texts before 19th century were using so called "Old Serbian" which was similar to Bulgarian. Serbian culture was a completely different bird.


Question for you: This people were not real Latin speaking Vlachs, it's but obvious. What they were Serbs or Orthodox Croatians?

The word used in the text for a church leader is “biškup”, which means “bishop” in Croatian. It is typical Catholic and Croatian word, never used by Serb Orthodox Church. I can't say whether they were already Orthodox then, but the context of the document indicates the they were Catholic soon before the event. The Serb Orthodox word is "episkop".

Bachus
24-07-18, 23:36
There was no Catholics in Pounje in year 1596. Catholics from this area disappeared in period 1522-1536.
Priest Radoslav call themselves biškup because he speak with Austrians. When Tito arrived Africa he represents self among African tribes as "tribal chief of Yugoslavia."
My ancestors always spoke biškup and never biskup. Village Biskupija near Knin was known as Biškupija in speach of local Serbian population.
People from document were not Catholics, not in year 1596 in that part of Bosnia. Even if their ancestors once were Catholic, they were Orthodox in 1596 when is document written.
One name from document is knez Vranješ. Surname Vranješ exist among Serbs from western Bosnia, Dalmatia and Kordun.

Wonomyro
25-07-18, 00:05
There was no Catholics in Pounje in year 1596. Catholics from this area disappeared in period 1522-1536.
Priest Radoslav call themselves biškup because he speak with Austrians. When Tito arrived Africa he represents self among African tribes as "tribal chief of Yugoslavia."

That is another nonsense. Austrians speak German. The text is written in Croatian!!!!


My ancestors always spoke biškup and never biskup. Village Biskupija near Knin was known as Biškupija in speach of local Serbian population.
People from document were not Catholics, not in year 1596 in that part of Bosnia. Even if their ancestors once were Catholic, they were Orthodox in 1596 when is document written.
One name from document is knez Vranješ. Surname Vranješ exist among Serbs from western Bosnia, Dalmatia and Kordun.

You “serbified” complete Croatian history and culture. :D

Read this:


The shrine of Our Lady of Biskupija, or St. Mary of Croatia, is situated in the village of Biskupija, 5 km southeast of Knin, the former church and cultural centre of the Croatian state in the Middle Ages. Archaeologists have discovered the foundations of five churches in that village, dating from the period of Croatian rulers from the 9th to the 11th century. St Mary's church was the residence of the Bishop of Knin, who was Bishop of Croatia from 1040 to 1522. The earliest known figure of Our Lady in Croatian art was discovered by archaeologists in that same church on a part of the stone partition wall, which separated the shrine from the church nave. It is still venerated as Our Lady of the Great Croatian Vow.

Bachus
25-07-18, 05:58
That is another nonsense. Austrians speak German. The text is written in Croatian!!!!



You “serbified” complete Croatian history and culture. :D

Read this:

Orthodox Serbs with Serbian names wrote text in cyrillil in Croatian language in region where in 1596 there was no any Catholic Caroatian. Tell me more about this, it's very funny to me! :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

Mich Glitch
25-07-18, 07:25
Is it possible divide the thread?
J2b1 section and "balkan" section?
Honestly, I am really tired listening your neighborhood conversations.

:)

Dema
25-07-18, 08:41
@Dema, we should take into account that there are two distinct Serb populations, autosomally.

So "western" Serbs probably can't be of "real" Vlach origin because they plot away from Romanians (Vlachs) and Albanians. However, it seem that they partly descend from Vlachs as they poses an elevated frequency of E1b haplogroup, comparing to Croats and Bosniaks. However, that "Vlach" signal was not sufficient to significantly change their autosomal profile.

Wonomyro, autosomal components can drastically change thru few generations. We cannot expect west Serbs to plot near Aromanians or Albanians. Not that Krajina and RS Serbs have only higher E1b in compare to Croats, Bosnjaks and Slovenians, but what i already explained in addition to E1b there is significant J2-M205 portion in them. J2-M205>Y22059 is connected to Montenegrin Latin speaking tribe Krici, it is clear Middle Eastern Roman signal that for sure was Latin speaking Vlach prior to identify with Serb.

What is interesting is that there is almost no J-M205>Y22059 in Croats, Bosnjaks and Slovens while majority of Serbian J2-M205>Y22059 is found exactly in Croatia and RS in Bosnia. According to Serb project J2-M205 and Ev13 are 30% in Lika. They must have been Orthodox Vlachs, who because of their religion later identified with Serbs rather then with Catholic Croats.
Also note that Slavic haplogroups could eventually always come in while Vlach ones could not. Even this Vlach signal that we find today in them is significant. Its not enough to call them Vlachs for sure, but enough to verify that at least one part of these people was Vlach before.

Look at J2-M205 samples from Serb project, its not evenly distributed among them but rather on two hot spots both known for Vlach settlements.

https://i.imgur.com/dNyCvbO.png

Dema
25-07-18, 08:43
Is it possible divide the thread?
J2b1 section and "balkan" section?
Honestly, I am really tired listening your neighborhood conversations.

:)


I agree with Mich Glitch, this is not place to debate Serbian and Croatian language differences, even me posting that Kosovo history post was too much. I would like to ask all to direct their conversation into debating J2-M205 and things relevant for this haplogroup

Bachus
25-07-18, 09:01
Wonomyro, autosomal components can drastically change thru few generations. We cannot expect west Serbs to plot near Aromanians or Albanians. Not that Krajina and RS Serbs have only higher E1b in compare to Croats, Bosnjaks and Slovenians, but what i already explained in addition to E1b there is significant J2-M205 portion in them. J2-M205>Y22059 is connected to Montenegrin Latin speaking tribe Krici, it is clear Middle Eastern Roman signal that for sure was Latin speaking Vlach prior to identify with Serb.

What is interesting is that there is almost no J-M205>Y22059 in Croats, Bosnjaks and Slovens while majority of Serbian J2-M205>Y22059 is found exactly in Croatia and RS in Bosnia. According to Serb project J2-M205 and Ev13 are 30% in Lika. They must have been Orthodox Vlachs, that because of their religion later identified with Serbs rather then with Catholic Croats.
Also note that Slavic haplogroups could eventually always come in while Vlach ones could not. Even this Vlach signal that we find today in them is significant. Its not enough to call them Vlachs for sure, but enough to verify that at least one part of these people was Vlach before.

Look at J2-M205 samples from Serb project, its not evenly distributed among them but rather on two hot spots both known for Vlach settlements.

https://i.imgur.com/dNyCvbO.png


You a are total idiot whith you claim.
Why you deny presence of J2b1-M205 among Croatians and Bosnian muslims? I showed you muslim family Tetarić from Banja Luka which is J2b1-M205, and there is more Bosnian muslims which are J2b1-M205. I know several Croatians who are J2b1-M205.
Even if Lika Serbs are 30% E + J it's still minority of their total haplogroup. Majority of Like Serbs belong to Slavic+Germanic (northern) haplogroups. N-Y7313 is Slavic according to Poreklo.

Albanians have about 25% Slavic haplogroups and Aromanians have over 30% Slavic haplogroups and nobody from the Serbian side claim that Albanians/Aromanians are of Slavic origin.
All south Slavs have paleo-Balkanic influence, and paleo-Balkanites such as Albanians, Greeks, Romanian and Aromanians have Slavic influence, it's from middle age.

Dema
25-07-18, 09:19
There is maybe 2 Croats and 2 Bosnjaks with J-M205>Y22059
Cirko and Jurcevic are Croats. Other Bosnjak that you mention is Porovic, btw he plots near Bulgarians.

All others are Serbs, who actually used to be Vlachs. They are Serbs, only because of Slavicization of their native territories and because of their Orthodox religion which later made them identify with Serbs.

They become Slavs and they were Orthodox so what else could have they become except for Serbs?

Its same with Sandzak Albanians, their territories were Slavicized recently so because of their Slavic language and Muslim religion they say they are Bosnjaks.

Krajina Serbs and RS Serbs are Serbs just as much Sanzdaks are Bosnjaks. Serbs are heavily Vlach influenced you like it or not.

Bachus
25-07-18, 09:27
There is maybe 2 Croats and 2 Bosnjaks with J-M205>Y22059
Cirko and Jurcevic are Croats. Other Bosnjak that you mention is Porovic, btw he plots near Bulgarians.

All others are Serbs, who actually used to be Vlachs. They are Serbs, only because of Slavicization of their native territories and because of their Orthodox religion which later made them identify with Serbs.

They become Slavs and they were Orthodox so what else could have they become except for Serbs?

Its same with Sandzak Albanians, their territories were Slavicized recently so because of their Slavic language and Muslim religion they say they are Bosnjaks.

Krajina Serbs and RS Serbs are Serbs just as much Sanzdaks are Bosnjaks. Serbs are heavily Vlach influenced you like it or not.

Comparation of Krajina Serbs and Sandžaklije is idiotic. Sandžaklije have +70% Alabanian haplogroups and they were Albanian speakers until few decades. Autosomal of Sandžaklije is pure Gheg Albanian.
Krajina Serbs are have predominantly Slavic haplogroups, and there are autosomally the closest to Croatians and Bosnian muslims.
I know 5-6 Croatians which are J2b1-M205.

Are Krajina Serbs who are I2a, R1a, I1 and N2 also Vlachs?

You remind me to one Romanian idiot from Serbian one forum who claim that south Slavs are 97% Vlach and 3% Slavic. According to him even I2a and R1a south Slavs are of Vlach origin.
Behavior of you and that Romanian dude is very Gypsy.
If you are a Vlach than go back to Romania, stop pretend to be Albanian! :laughing:

Dema
25-07-18, 09:50
Comparation of Krajina Serbs and Sandžaklije is idiotic. Sandžaklije have +70% Alabanian haplogroups and they were Albanian speakers until few decades. Autosomal of Sandžaklije is pure Gheg Albanian.
Krajina Serbs are have predominantly Slavic haplogroups, and there are autosomally the closest to Croatians and Bosnian muslims.
I know 5-6 Croatians which are J2b1-M205.

Are Krajina Serbs who are I2a, R1a, I1 and N2 also Vlachs?

You remind me to one Romanian dude from Serbian one forum who claim that south Slavs are 97% Vlach and 3% Slavic. According to him even I2a and R1a south Slavs are of Vlach origin.
Behavior of you and that Romanian dude is very Gypsy.


Do you know what your problem is? That when you lose in argument you start to twist, go off topic and insult people.
I have asked you specifically not to post spam here since its J2-M205 thread, and what you do? You start spamming it even more.
I have reported your insults now, also im not debating with you anymore until you grow up and until you will psychologically be ready to accept facts without insulting people or act like that.

Comparation between Krajina Serbs and Sandzaklije is not stupid. They both claim they are something which they are not, based on their Slavicization and religion.

Read one more time what i wrote and im not going to reply anymore to you since you cant either behave or debate on respectful way but on some barbaric way, and i wont allow you to pull me also on that level.


Even this Vlach signal that we find today in them is significant. Its not enough to call them Vlachs for sure, but enough to verify that at least one part of these people was Vlach before.

Bachus
25-07-18, 09:55
Do you know what your problem is? That when you lose in argument you start to twist, go off topic and insult people.
I have asked you specifically not to post spam here since its J2-M205 thread, and what you do? You start spamming it even more.
I have reported your insults now, also im not debating with you anymore until you grow up and until you will psychologically be ready to accept facts without insulting people or act like that.

Comparation between Krajina Serbs and Sandzaklije is not stupid. They both claim they are something which they are not, based on their Slavicization and religion.

Read one more time what i wrote and im not going to reply anymore to you since you cant either behave or debate on respectful way but on some barbaric way, and i wont allow you to pull me also on that level.

Krajina Serbs are not predominantly of Vlach origin. They are less Vlachs influenced than Serbs from the other regions. Claim of same Croatians that Krajina Serbs are serbized Croatians have more sense than your idiotic claim about their Vlachs origin. If Krajina Serbs are Vlachs than Bosnian muslim and Croatian are also Vlachs, because Krajina Serbs are autosomaly identical as Bosnian muslims and Croatians.
On the other hand vast majority of Sandžaklije are of Albanian origin.
Case of Sandžaklije is similar as case of Arvanites in Greece.

You did not answered to me. Are Krajina Serbs who are I2a, R1a, I1 and N2 Vlachs?
I2a, R1a, I1 and N2 together are over 70% among Krajina Serbs.

Wonomyro
25-07-18, 10:51
Orthodox Serbs with Serbian names wrote text in cyrillil in Croatian language in region where in 1596 there was no any Catholic Caroatian. Tell me more about this, it's very funny to me!

It is "funny to you" because your knowledge is poor.

Catholic church was using Cyrilic script (western type) in Croatia and Bosnia (especially Franciscans) when using Croatan language.

The region of Pounje mentioned above is the region near Una river (thus the name). The main city in the region is called Hrvatska Kostajnica (Croatian Kostajnica). The Croats were living there all the time.


During the early 18th century two schools are opened in the city. One school was operated by Catholic Missionary Church of “St. Antun Padovinski”, while the second schools was run as a Serbian Public School.


Kostajnica suffered greatly during the Croatian War of Independence. A large part of the Croatian population were expelled or killed by rebel Serbs in 1991 and the city was incorporated into the Republic of Serbian Krajina. Houses and buildings belonging to Croats were burned and looted, including the baroque church, the medieval apothecary, and the eighteenth-century Franciscan monastery. The only piece of the city's cultural heritage left was the castle by the river built by the Frankopans. Kostajnica was put back in Croatian control following military victories by the army in August 1995, and the Croat population expelled slowly began returning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrvatska_Kostajnica
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrvatska_Kostajnica)
(Others, sorry if this looks like an off topic. I'll try to get back to the subject)

Bachus
25-07-18, 11:02
It is "funny to you" because your knowledge is poor.

Catholic church was using Cyrilic script (western type) in Croatia and Bosnia (especially Franciscans) when using Croatan language.

The region of Pounje mentioned above is the region near Una river (thus the name). The main city in the region is called Hrvatska Kostajnica (Croatian Kostajnica). The Croats were living there all the time.





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrvatska_Kostajnica

Why people from document have Serbian or Orthodox names such as: Radoslav, Miloš, Radoje, Vranješ, Vujica, Manojlo, Živko, Vojin, Slavuj...?
Those people were Orthodox without doubt. Priest Radoslav call themself proto-pop. Pop is Orthodox priest, and Castholic priest is fratar.

As I said Vranješ is quite common surmame among Krajina Serbs. Vranješi are probably R1a-M458, because they are of same origin as Serbian Krajina families Bursać, Tankosić and Bauk and all of these families are R1a-M458.
Bursać (cyrillic Бурсаћ)
https://www.poreklo.rs/2012/02/14/bursać/

Wonomyro
25-07-18, 11:16
Wonomyro, autosomal components can drastically change thru few generations.

Yes, but not simultanuously on the large scale. If one population lacks the cretain component it can't get it out of the blue. There must be another much larger population to mix with.


We cannot expect west Serbs to plot near Aromanians or Albanians. Not that Krajina and RS Serbs have only higher E1b in compare to Croats, Bosnjaks and Slovenians, but what i already explained in addition to E1b there is significant J2-M205 portion in them. J2-M205>Y22059 is connected to Montenegrin Latin speaking tribe Krici, it is clear Middle Eastern Roman signal that for sure was Latin speaking Vlach prior to identify with Serb.

What is interesting is that there is almost no J-M205>Y22059 in Croats, Bosnjaks and Slovens while majority of Serbian J2-M205>Y22059 is found exactly in Croatia and RS in Bosnia. According to Serb project J2-M205 and Ev13 are 30% in Lika. They must have been Orthodox Vlachs, who because of their religion later identified with Serbs rather then with Catholic Croats.
Also note that Slavic haplogroups could eventually always come in while Vlach ones could not. Even this Vlach signal that we find today in them is significant. Its not enough to call them Vlachs for sure, but enough to verify that at least one part of these people was Vlach before.

Look at J2-M205 samples from Serb project, its not evenly distributed among them but rather on two hot spots both known for Vlach settlements.

https://i.imgur.com/dNyCvbO.png

I agree the there is a noticeable signal of Vlachs ancestry in the Croatian and Bosnian Orthodox. It is very likely that The "real" Vlachs were those who initialy brought the Orthodox religion to the westen parts. The rest were obviously the later assimilated locals from the Ottoman side of the border.

Mich Glitch
25-07-18, 11:17
Unsubscribe this s..t.
Eat each other my friends.

Bachus
25-07-18, 11:26
Dema is an manipulator. His posts are cherry-picking. I2a and R1a are much stronger among Krajina Serbs than E1b and J2b.
He is obsessed with haplogroups. Haplogroup is less than 0,1% of total human DNA. Autsomal is much more important, and Krajina Serbs are the more nothern shifted Serbs.
If Krajina Serbs are paleo-Balkanites how is possible that they shifted more nothern than other Serbs? Whether their ploting with Bosnian muslims and Croatians fell from the sky.

Bachus
25-07-18, 11:34
Here are photos of Banija Serbs (they are Krajina Serbs)
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?248218-Serbs-from-Banija-(main-phenotypes-and-where-they-can-fit)

Most of votes is for option that they look like Croatians.
Polish user said that all of them can pass as Poles.

I2a+R1a among Banija Serbs are over 60%, also Banija Serbs look pretty Slavic for Balkan standards.

Dema
25-07-18, 11:38
I agree, all this should be moved to some Balkan thread. Lets continue with J2B1

Wonomyro
25-07-18, 12:49
Dema is an manipulator. His posts are cherry-picking. I2a and R1a are much stronger among Krajina Serbs than E1b and J2b.
He is obsessed with haplogroups. Haplogroup is less than 0,1% of total human DNA. Autsomal is much more important, and Krajina Serbs are the more nothern shifted Serbs.
If Krajina Serbs are paleo-Balkanites how is possible that they shifted more nothern than other Serbs? Whether their ploting with Bosnian muslims and Croatians fell from the sky.

In you question there is an answer.

Got it now? ;-)

Bachus
25-07-18, 13:11
In you question there is an answer.

Got it now? ;-)

Bosnian and Krajina Serbs very rare mixed with Bosnian muslims and Croatians, because of religion.
Autosomal DNA of Bosnian and Krajina Serbs is from their own haplogroups. Peleo-Balkanite haplogroups among Krajina Serbs are in minority towards the Slavic and northern haplogroups in general. There is more paleo-Balkanite haplogroups among Vojvodinian Serbs than among Krajina Serbs. Banat is especially influenced with high % of paleo-Balkanite haplos.

Wonomyro
25-07-18, 13:17
Bosnian and Krajina Serbs very rare mixed with Bosnian muslims and Croatians, because of religion.
Autosomal DNA of Bosnian and Krajina Serbs is from their own haplogroups. Peleo-Balkanite haplogroups among Krajina Serbs are in minority towards the Slavic and northern haplogroups in general.

Autosomal DNA from haplogroups? :petrified:


There is more paleo-Balkanite haplogroups among Vojvodinian Serbs than among Krajina Serbs. Banat is especially influenced with high % of paleo-Balkanite haplos.

That's according to the expectations. Serbs of Banat mostly descend from the medieval Serbian population. That migration is well documented.

Bachus
25-07-18, 13:26
Autosomal DNA from haplogroups? :petrified:

I mean Krajina Serbs mixed mostly among themselves, they mixed very rare with Croatians. Fact is that Krajina Serbs are most northern shifted Serbs is not because they married Croatian women. If they were Vlachs their autosomal should be same as Albanian or Romanian and is not the case. Krajina Serbs are genetically the farthest from Albanians and Romanians of all Serbs.

Wonomyro
25-07-18, 13:32
I mean Krajina Serbs mixed mostly among themselves, they mixed very rare with Croatians. Fact is that Krajina Serbs are most northern shifted Serbs is not because they married Croatian women. If they were Vlachs their autosomal should be same as Albanian or Romania and is not case. Krajina Serbs are genetically the farthest from Albanians and Romanians of all Serbs.

But why are they "northern shifted" then?

Why are they autosomally identical to Croats, not to the rest of Serbs?

Bachus
25-07-18, 13:41
But why are they "northern shifted" then?

Why are they autosomally identical to Croats, not to the rest of Serbs?

Probably because Serbs from Serbia and Montenegrins got extra paleo-Balkanite genes in the last few centuries. Do you know than in eastern Serbia almost all Vlachs are assimilated/serbized. There is about 40 000 Vlachs in eastern Serbia and their real number is probably over 300 000.
Southern Serbs (Torlakians) are quite Vlach influenced. In the middle age Vlachs were numerous in southern Serbia. Torlakian dialect has paleo-Balkanite influence.
Western Serbs probably are genetically closer to medieval Serbs, because they migrated early from eastern Herzegovina to northwest. Some natives of western Bosnia were probably absorbed by Herzegovinian Serbs which migrated to western Bosnia in 16th century.

Wonomyro
25-07-18, 13:59
Probably because Serbs from Serbia and Montenegrins got extra paleo-Balkanite genes in the last few centuries. Do you know than in eastern Serbia almost all Vlachs are assimilated/serbized. There is about 40 000 Vlachs in eastern Serbia and their real number is probably over 300 000. Western Serbs probably are genetically closer to medieval Serbs, because they migrated early from eastern Herzegovina to northwest. Some natives of western Bosnia were probably absorbed by Herzegovinian Serbs which migrated to western Bosnia in 16th century. But that was Herzegovina, not medieval Serbia. The center of Serbian medieval state was more to the east in Kosovo and Raška. However, it seems that the population of medieval Herzegovina was also "Croatian like" autosomally...

Bachus
25-07-18, 14:41
Autosomal DNA from haplogroups? :petrified:



That's according to the expectations. Serbs of Banat mostly descend from the medieval Serbian population. That migration is well documented.

Y DNA of Serbs from Banat (I2a+R1a is only 40,5%)
I2 - 24,32%
E-V13 - 18,92%
R1a - 16,22%
R1b - 10,81%
I1 - 10,81%
J2b-M205 - 8,11%
J2a - 5,4%
Q - 2,7%
N2 - 2,7%


https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=1836.msg80603#msg80603

Torlakian Serbs from southern Serbia also have about 40% I2a+R1a.

Dema
26-07-18, 22:13
Dema is an manipulator. His posts are cherry-picking. I2a and R1a are much stronger among Krajina Serbs than E1b and J2b.

Where i said that there is less I2a or R1a in Croatian Krajina or RS in Bosnia? then E1b and J2?
You have personal issues connected to this being Croatian Serb you have something to prove, which does not hold water.

For the third time look what i said:



Also note that Slavic haplogroups could eventually always come in while Vlach ones could not. Even this Vlach signal that we find today in them is significant. Its not enough to call them Vlachs for sure, but enough to verify that at least one part of these people was Vlach before

There is obvious Vlach signal in Krajina Serbs and in RS Serbs that is primary followed by J2-M205 which lacks in Croats, Bosnjaks, Slovens. But also it is followed by higher percentage of E-v13 then already in mentioned neighbors.

Stop posting rows of copy pasted statistics and spam that no one cares about in J2-M205 thread. Open your thread if you have something to prove.

Wonomyro
26-07-18, 23:44
Sorry for a digression, just wanted to help us to get sense of proportions.

According to 1981 census, Croatian Serbs comprised 11.6% of total population of Croatia and only 6,53% of all Serbs in Yugoslavia.

Bachus
27-07-18, 01:55
Where i said that there is less I2a or R1a in Croatian Krajina or RS in Bosnia? then E1b and J2?
You have personal issues connected to this being Croatian Serb you have something to prove, which does not hold water.

For the third time look what i said:



There is obvious Vlach signal in Krajina Serbs and in RS Serbs that is primary followed by J2-M205 which lacks in Croats, Bosnjaks, Slovens. But also it is followed by higher percentage of E-v13 then already in mentioned neighbors.

Stop posting rows of copy pasted statistics and spam that no one cares about in J2-M205 thread. Open your thread if you have something to prove.

Stop ******ng me, you clown!
You said that Krajina Serbs are predominantly of Vlach origin, and is not true. You campared them with Sandžaklije who have +70% Albanian haplos (E-V13, J2b2 and R1b-BY611). Krajina Serbs are much much more Slavic than Sandžaklije, in terms of haplos and autosomal. I expect autosomal results of Banija Serbs, they are probably most northern shifted Serbs, probably even more northern than average for Krajina Serbs. Banija Serbs are one of the lightest pigmented Serbs on average, and majority of them look central European. Until now there is no published results of Banija Serbs. One Banija Serbs who live in Germany got 47% North European at K12 dodecad (that is Slovenian average), but his results are not published yet. I got imformation of one Banija Serb guy, because man who is tested in Germany is his cousin. Banija guy with 47% North European is I2-PH908.
Serbs from southern Serbia, Kosovo, Montenegro, Šumadija and Banat have more "Vlach" haplos than Krajina Serbs.
If Krajina Serbs are Vlachs than what are Serbs from southern Serbia, Kosovo, Montenegro, Šumadija and Banat? Maybe super Vlachs?
In reality Croatians and Slovenians have 40% non-slavic haplogroups, but you deny this fact and your pretend that Croatians and Slovenians have 100% Slavic haplos.
In reality J2b1-M205 is poor among Albanians and real Vlachs - Aromanians.

I have seen 2 autosomal results of Lika Serbs. One guy is J2b1-M205, other is I2-PH908.

J2b1-M205 (80% East Europe)
https://i.imgur.com/sfKQmmy.png

I2-PH908 (63% East Europe)
https://i.imgur.com/a66M1h2.png

Both of these Lika Serbs guy are genetically more Slavic than for example Croatian girl Stearsolina (Feeichy) from TA and her Hungarian boyfriend. She got 52% East Europe. They are much more genetically Slavic than Sinan Zirić (Bosniensis), he got 42% East European.
For Wonomyro: Stersolina is Mala Rijeka on forum.hr, you know her if you are present on forum.hr.
Question for you: Who is genetically more Slavic, J2b1-M205 or I2-PH908 guy?
In my opionion J2b1-M205 guy is more Slavic, because East Europe = Slavic genetic. Who cares for haplo. Haplogroup means nothintg.
J2b1-M205 guy is probably more Slavic genetically than R1a lika Serbs. 80% East Europe is extremly high for south Slavs. He do9es not havge recent east Slavic or east European influence, I checked.
You wannane Slavic is not it? You have a fetish on Slavic genetic! :laughing: Be proud ofg you 18% East Europe (aka Slavic DNA), that is very much for Albanian. :laughing:

Wonomyro
27-07-18, 02:48
Both of these Lika Serbs guy are genetically more Slavic than for example Croatian girl Stearsolina (Feeichy) from TA and her Hungarian boyfriend. She got 52% East Europe. They are much more genetically Slavic than Sinan Zirić (Bosniensis), he got 42% East European

You are cherrypicking all the time.

Bachus
27-07-18, 02:55
You are cherrypicking all the time.

Guy with 63% East Europe is average for Krajina and Bosnian Serbs (other guy has to much East Europe for all Balkan Slavs).
I know his other results, this is his K12 dodecad
https://i.imgur.com/QurAEqu.png

What is your problem?
There is only 2 published autosomal of Lika Serbs, guy with 63% and with 80% East Europe.
If there is 5 or 10 published results of Lika Serbs I would put them all, but there is only 2.

Dema
27-07-18, 03:00
This Vlach completely lost his mind. Look at the craps he is posting.
BTW J2b1 sample is much more Vlach, he has clear Vlach Ydna and 5 % of Middle Eastern autosomal, While I2 guy scores Siberian and he is from Slavic migrations so Slav.

BTW Sanxhaks and Krajina/RS Vlachs are very good comparison. They both claim they are something they are not based on their religion and Slavicization. Also they are both not living in community they are claiming they belong to.
I know Sanxhaks have much higher Albanian DNA then Krajina Vlachs have Vlach one, but wait. Sanxhaks are assimilated only recently while Krajina Vlachs long ago. Sanxhaks genetics might not look in few hundred years like it looks today. Just as probably Krajina Vlach genetics has most likely recently take over with Slavic dominance, it must have been much more Vlach before. Because as i explained you, new Vlachs were not coming in while Slavs did.

Krajina and RS vlachs are much more Vlachs then Croats, Bosnjaks or Slovens.

They are recorded as Vlach in all documents, they get Vlach DNA, so its pretty clear.

Your explanations are ridiculous like they were proud to be in Vlach status so they called themselves sons of Vlachs, hahahha did you travel with time machine there so they told you that? Your imagination and complexes are unbelievable.

Dema
27-07-18, 03:10
Orthodox Vlachs with Slavic names wrote text in cyrillil in Croatian language in region where in 1596 there was no any Catholic Caroatian. Tell me more about this, it's very funny to me! :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


Fixed. Now it makes more sense.

Wonomyro
27-07-18, 03:15
Guy with 63% East Europe is average for Krajina and Bosnian Serbs (other guy has to much East Europe for all Balkan Slavs).
I know his other results, this is his K12 dodecad

What is your problem?
There is only 2 published autosomal of Lika Serbs, guy with 63% and with 80% East Europe.
If there is 5 or 10 published results of Lika Serbs I would put them all, but there is only 2.

Can't you understand that these "western" Serbs have been mixing for centuries with Croats?

Bachus
27-07-18, 03:22
Can't you understand that these "western" Serbs have been mixing for centuries with Croats?

No, mixing with Croatians eas very rare because of different religion.
Religion was very important in the past. Vast majority of Orthodox people married for Orthodox, and vast majority of Catholics married for Catholics.

Dema
27-07-18, 03:23
Can't you understand that these "western" Serbs have been mixing for centuries with Croats?

No he claims they didnt, he is sure they didnt take Croatian or Bosnian wifes and they didnt mix.

They plot closer to Croats then to Serbia Serbs because they were always more Northern shifted, their higher Vlach Ydna is just accident.


I mean Krajina Serbs mixed mostly among themselves, they mixed very rare with Croatians.

Bachus
27-07-18, 03:24
No he claims they didnt, he is sure they didnt take Croatian or Bosnian wifes and they didnt mix.

They plot closer to Croats then to Serbia Serbs because they were always Northern shifted, their higher Vlach Ydna is just accident.

You will be reported now for ******** and lying.

Dema
27-07-18, 03:31
You will be reported now for ******** and lying.

I quoted your post where you claim that lol. You must have been candle holder prior to first night marriage consummation, so you know what wifes and from where were they taking. Also we already know you have time machine.

Wonomyro
27-07-18, 03:34
No, mixing with Croatians eas very rare because of different religion. Religion was very important in the past. Vast majority of Orthodox people married for Orthodox, and vast majority of Catholics married for Catholics.

How did they become Serb Orthodox in the first place? In 11th century there were no Orthodox Church in Croatia nor in Bosnia and Herzegovina, not even in Montenegro:

https://cdn.britannica.com/300x300/38/196138-004-982D2CE5.jpg

The Orthodox existed only in Serbia, but wait ... did they all come from Serbia?

Bachus
27-07-18, 03:39
I quoted your post where you claim that lol. You must have been candle holder prior to first night marriage consummation, so you know what wifes and from where were they taking. Also we already know you have time machine.

I don't have time mashine, but I have the registers for few Orthodox villages in northern Dalmatia from 1770 to late 19th century. There was no marriages with Catholic women.
Listen, I know my maternal line 250 years in the past and I don't have Catholic maternal ancestors. By paternal line I know my ancestors 400 years in the past.

Wonomyro
27-07-18, 03:48
I don't have time mashine, but I have the registers for few Orthodox villages in northern Dalmatia from 1770 to late 19th century. There was no marriages with Catholic women.
Listen, I know my maternal line 250 years in the past and I don't have Catholic maternal ancestors. By paternal line I know my ancestors 400 years in the past.

But look what Tesla wrote in his diary:


I'm glad that also Croats think that I belong to them because my ancestors are from Croatian noble family Draganići from Zadar. As the Croatian nobles in the 16th century, they came to Lika and stayed. Into Lika my ancestors got via Novi Vinodolski. My mother's ancestors, the Kalinić's, are also Croatian noblemen from Novi Vinodolski. My great-grandfather due to circumstances had to leave to the Bosnian Krajina and there he married an Orthodox girl and converted to Eastern Orthodoxy. He had the protruding front teeth so people called him Tesla to the tools with which one process wood and from that comes my current surname of Tesla. It is actually a nickname. My grandfather was an officer in the Lika Regiment, and my father, an Orthodox priest.

That was the typical case...

Bachus
27-07-18, 04:32
But look what Tesla wrote in his diary:



That was the typical case...

How Tesla can be of Croatian origin when Dema claim that Krajina Serbs are "Vlachs"? :laughing:
How any western Serb can be of Croatian origin when Dema claim that they are "Vlachs"? :laughing:

Read this (but carefully) about origin of Nikola Tesla
www.poreklo.rs/2013/02/21/pleme-nikole-tesle/?lang=lat
Tesla family from Lika with R1a-M458>L1029 is not genetically conected with Croatians which carry this haplogruop. They mach only with Serbs which carry this haplogroup.

https://i.imgur.com/rStn9hL.jpg

Dema
27-07-18, 05:26
I dont say they are Vlach but that they are more Vlach influenced then Croats, Slovens and Bosnjaks.
And that they for sure were more Vlach before then today.

I dont get it what you have against Vlachs. You trying to deny Vlach influence in Serbs is just ridiculous.

Btw thanks for making nice J2b1 research thread into a trash.

Bachus
27-07-18, 05:37
I dont say they are Vlach but that they are more Vlach influenced then Croats, Slovens and Bosnjaks.
And that they for sure were more Vlach before then today.

I dont get it what you have against Vlachs. You trying to deny Vlach influence in Serbs is just ridiculous.

Btw thanks for making nice J2b1 research thread into a trash.

People which you call "Vlachs" never called themselves with that name. "Vlachs" is a Slavic synonym for all Balkan sheperds, regardless if they are Latin, Slavic, Greek or any other language speakers. "Vlachs" = sheperd in the Balkans and central Europe, and nothing else. Word "Vlach" originated from Slavic god Veles, protector of sheperds
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veles_(god)
Sarakatsani are ethnic Greeks and Greek speakers, but they are "Vlachs" because they are semi-nomadic sheperds. Their lifestyle is "Vlachic."
Latin speakers of Balkans call themselves Romani, Rumâni, Armâni, Rrâmânji... but never Vlachs.

You now claim that Krajina Serbs have only "Vlach" influence, and before 2 messages you claimed that they are same "case" as Sandžaklije.
Paleo-Balkanic infuence is not same thing as predominantly paleo-Balkanic. Sandžaklije are predominantly paleo-Balkanic, and Krajina Serbs are predominantly Slavic. There is no similarity with them. Case of Sandžaklije is like case Arvanites in Greece.
Majority of Krajina Serbs were always Serbian speakers, even ancestors of those who have paleo-Balkanic haplogroups are Serbian speakers at least 600 years. On the other hand vast majority of Sandžaklije were Albanian speakers 100 years ago.

LABERIA
27-07-18, 06:03
People which you call "Vlachs" never called themselves with that name. "Vlachs" is a Slavic synonym for all Balkan sheperds, regardless if they are Latin, Slavic, Greek or any other language speakers. "Vlachs" = sheperd in the Balkans and central Europe, and nothing else. Word "Vlach" originated from Slavic god Veles, protector of sheperds
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veles_(god)
Sarakatsani are ethnic Greeks and Greek speakers, but they are "Vlachs" because they are semi-nomadic sheperds. Their lifestyle is "Vlachic."
Latin speakers of Balkans call themselves Romani, Rumâni, Armâni, Rrâmânji... but never Vlachs.
You now claim that Krajina Serbs have only "Vlach" influence, and before 2 messages you claimed that they are same "case" as Sandžaklije.
Paleo-Balkanic infuence is not same thing as predominantly paleo-Balkanic. Sandžaklije are predominantly paleo-Balkanic, and Krajina Serbs are predominantly Slavic. There is no similarity with them. Case of Sandžaklije are like case Arvanites in Greece.
Majority of Krajina Serbs were always Serbian speakers, even ancestors of those who have paleo-Balkanic haplogroups are Serbian speakers at least 600 years. On the other hand vast majority of Sandžaklije were Albanian speakers 100 years ago.
This is Deretiç pseudoscience.

Wonomyro
27-07-18, 10:35
How Tesla can be of Croatian origin when Dema claim that Krajina Serbs are "Vlachs"? :laughing: How any western Serb can be of Croatian origin when Dema claim that they are "Vlachs"? :laughing: Read this (but carefully) about origin of Nikola Tesla
www.poreklo.rs/2013/02/21/pleme-nikole-tesle/?lang=lat Tesla family from Lika with R1a-M458>L1029 is not genetically conected with Croatians which carry this haplogruop. They mach only with Serbs which carry this haplogroup

These stories from Poreklo are just the fairy tales. Serbs from Lika are autosomally identical to their Croat neighbours. Given that these Serbs were called "Vlachs" in the past, the Croatian genetic input must have been dramatic durring the last 300 or more years.

Bachus
27-07-18, 11:01
These stories from Poreklo are just the fairy tales. Serbs from Lika are autosomally identical to their Croat neighbours. Given that these Serbs were called "Vlachs" in the past, the Croatian genetic input must have been dramatic durring the last 300 or more years.

Tesla was 100% Romanian, everyone know that R1a is pure Vlachic hapgroup. :laughing:

His family came to Lika from Sibiu, and his real name was Nicolae Teslae. :laughing:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Tyh7BQG-Xk&t=1s

Wonomyro
27-07-18, 11:12
Tesla was 100% Vlach, everyone know that R1a is pure Vlachic hapgroup. :laughing: His family came to Lika from Sibiu, and his real name was Nicolae Teslae. :laughing: Haplogroup is not what determines your ethnicity. In case of Serbs it is the religion that plays the role.

Bachus
27-07-18, 11:19
Haplogroup is not what determines your ethnicity. In case of Serbs it is the religion that plays the role.

You can speak only in Croatian name that thing. It's well known that there is no Croatian nation without Catholicism. Croatians which are not Catholics don't exist and never existed.

Croatian nation was created in 19th century due to Catholic church.

Wonomyro
27-07-18, 11:46
Croatians which are not Catholics don't exist and never existed.

You are constantly demonstrating ignorance on this forum. Croats are mostly Catholoc but:

There were protestant Croats, not only catholic. They were famous for printing books in Croatian language.

There were also muslim Croats. This is the list of Ottoman pashas who were Croats:

Dilaver-paša Hrvat (=Croat)
Sijavuš-paša Hrvat
Pijale-paša Hrvat
Sinan-paša Hrvat
Rustem-paša Hrvat
Mural-paša Hrvat
Memi-paša Hrvat
Memi-paša Hrvat
Mahmut-paša Hrvat
Tahvil-paša Kulenović Hrvat
Junus-paša Hrvat
...

The Croat ethnonym was never used to name any Church, faith nor believers of any religion group.


Croatian nation was created in 19th century due to Catholic church.

That is not possible because Catholic Church in 19th century was promoting panslavistic ideas, not Croatian ethnogenesis. One of the most famous and influental Croatian bishop of 19th century was J. J. Strossmayer:


Strossmayer supported the union of all south Slavic peoples under the aegis of the Habsburgs, and promoted religious unification through the use of the Slavonic rite both in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. He served as the papal nuncio for Serbia and visited that country seven times between 1852 and 1886, and he also helped establish the concordat between the Holy See and the state of Montenegro in 1866.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josip_Juraj_Strossmayer

You should stop spreading false information.

Dema
27-07-18, 21:55
People which you call "Vlachs" never called themselves with that name. "Vlachs" is a Slavic synonym for all Balkan sheperds, regardless if they are Latin, Slavic, Greek or any other language speakers. "Vlachs" = sheperd in the Balkans and central Europe, and nothing else. Word "Vlach" originated from Slavic god Veles, protector of sheperds

Krajina Vlachs specifically called themselves Vlachs. Even after Slavicization, they still knew their true origin. No matter of your complexes and personal issues.

Etymology
The word "Vlach" is etymologically derived from the ethnonym of a Celtic tribe,[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-FOOTNOTETanner2004203-8) adopted into Proto-Germanic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages) *Walhaz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walhaz) which meant "stranger", from *Wolkā-[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-Ringe_2009-9)(Caesar's Latin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language): Volcae, Strabo and Ptolemy's Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Ouolkai). [10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-NuorluotoLeiwo2001-10) Via Latin, in Gothic, as *walhs, the ethnonym took on the meaning "foreigner" or "Romance-speaker",[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-NuorluotoLeiwo2001-10) and was adopted into Greek Vláhi (Βλάχοι), Slavic Vlah, Hungarian oláh and olasz, etc.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-11)[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-12) The root word was notably adopted in Germanic for Wales (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales)and Walloon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walloons) (German (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language): Welsch),[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-FOOTNOTETanner2004203-8) and in Poland Włochy became an exonym for Italians.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-NuorluotoLeiwo2001-10) Via both Germanic and Latin, the term started to signify "stranger, foreigner" also in the Balkans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans), where it in its early form was used for Romance-speakers, but the term eventually took on the meaning of "shepherd, nomad".[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-FOOTNOTETanner2004203-8) The Romance-speaking communities themselves however used the endonym (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endonym) (they called themselves) "Romans".[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-13) During the early history of the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans, there was a social class of Vlachs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlach_(Ottoman_social_class)) in Serbia and Macedonia, made up of Christians who served as auxiliary forces and had the same rights as Muslims.[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-14) In Croatia, the term became derogatory, and Vlasi was used for the ethnic Serb (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serb) community.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-FOOTNOTETanner2004203-8)
Romanian scholars have suggested that the term Vlach appeared for the first time in the Eastern Roman Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Roman_Empire) and was subsequently spread to the Germanic- and then Slavic-speaking worlds through the Norsemen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsemen) (possibly by Varangians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangians)), who were in trade and military contact with Byzantium (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium) during the early Middle Ages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Middle_Ages) (see also Blakumen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blakumen)).[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-15)[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-16)
Nowadays, the term "Vlachs" (also known under other names, such as Koutsovlachs, Tsintsars, Karagouni, Chobani, Vlasi, etc.[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-17)) is used in scholarship for the Romance-speaking communities in the Balkans, especially those in Greece, Albania and Macedonia.

We know that J2b1 but also Krici tribe were Latin speakers, and that is exactly what we find in Krajina and RS Serbs, but very rare in Bosnjaks, Croats or Slovens. Its clear Latin speaking signal in Krajina and RS Serbs. accompanied with higher Ev13 which also most likely got thru Latin speakers of native Balkan origin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#Medieval_usage

Medieval usage


6th century

Byzantine historians used the term Vlachs for Latin speakers.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#6th_century



In year 1642, when Krajina Vlachs sent letter to Zagreb bishop, where they say: "da bi Laških sinov ne bilo, puste bi Kraine bile". Even tho in old dialect i think that you understand it very well, but im still going to translate it. They say: If there was no sons of Vlachs, Krajina would be empty.

https://bs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pravoslavlje_u_Hrvatskoj#Historija

Wonomyro
28-07-18, 01:22
Bishop of Zagreb Franjo Ergelski in 1635 stated that, among Orthodox Vlachs, almost half of were former Catholics, who escaped and joined Vlachs, abandoned Catholic, and converted to the Orthodox faith.


Zagrebački biskup Franjo Ergelski je 1635. tvrdio da je među pravoslavnim Vlasima bila gotovo polovica katolika (..) Isti biskup se ujedno žalio kako su mnogi kmetovi koji su pobjegli među Vlahe napuštali katoličku vjeru i prelazili na pravoslavlje.

Vlach status was a better option then the serfdom. The migrations were permanent during the entire 17th century. Some were leaving their wives, marrying the Vlach women and converting to the Orthodox faith.

http://povijest.net/o-vlaskom-pitanju/

Dema
29-07-18, 19:35
There have been some changes on Yfull regarding J2-M205. General TMRCA was crippled from 6100 years to 5300 years. Formed 15900 ybp, TMRCA 5300 ybp.
Lets hope we dont get any other major hits like this on our overall TMRCA.

Also Balkan mainland branch Y22059 TMRCA has fallen down. According to Flor it was because of my bigY test. Because only 3 out of my 6 novels (3 best quality, 3 acceptable) fall into comBED region that are used to calculate TMRCA.

Their previous calculation within this group of Y22059>Y22063* was 800 years TMRCA. But with my test they have come up to 550 years. Which is frankly impossible because we know based on STR markers that difference for sure has to be higher and not lower. Also not that lower. By Flor it should be around 750 even with my only 3 comBED out of 6 and not 550 which is a bit puzzling.
I was at first disappointed on Yfull, after all precise TMRCA calculation is why i payed them in first place. But Albanian and J2 administrator Flor has convinced me that its not Yfull mistake because they use same methodology for all sampoles, but bigY test also has inconsistent coverage and that is reason why we see these swings on clades with little tested samples. It should rise when more people do NGS test.

Also apparently in future they should include STR calculation into their TMRCA estimation which will help with younger clader with little tested samples.
Lets wait few days and see if there is any change, also when i click on Age estimation tab on Yfull i dont see any info there so lets just wait and see what they will come up with.

Except that there is no other major news.

Dema
30-07-18, 19:05
Anyways as this actual Yfull SNP calculation within Y22063* is obviously wrong, i believe it would be safer to consider their STR calculation at the moment.
By their STR calculation where they compared my 353 STR markers with other 2 members inside of Y22066>Y22063*, average distance is 0.085.

If we base on this post that Mich Glich has previously posted that is about 1000 years. Which should be more realistic.

So my average distance from other two samples inside of Y22063 should be 1000 years, which should automatically also be realistic TMRCA of Y22063 with this 3 samples that are present.



0.1 GD (by Infinite alleles model) it's approximately 2000 YBP.


0.08 it's about 1000 YBP.

Dema
01-08-18, 17:26
Looks like i have none typical situation where only 50 % of my novels fall into comBED region which Yfull uses to calculate TMRCA. Therefore thats why they have come up with incorrect result.

So far what i seen people usually get 80 % or more of comBED novels. Im asking few more people to see thier situation with comBED and how many they get within their novels. Also i wonder other two samples inside of Y22063* how many comBED novels they have out of their best quality and acceptable novels..

I might contact Yfull also for explanation, but ill just wait some time and see does anything changes.

Dema
05-08-18, 20:48
Regarding J2b1>Y22059 and Vlach question, i have to make it clear one more time, that when we say Vlach we mean exclusively Roman Empire remains and Latinophones.
There is so many various meanings for word Vlach that its confusing to use it. Specifically J2b1>Y22059, that we are debating here about, is almost none existent in Aromuns.
So it was clearly some other wave of Roman time migrants, perhaps Byzantine one judging by TMRCA 1000 - 1300 years.

So J2-Y22059 is most likely from Roman Empire migrations from Levantine provinces. So to make it short we just say Vlach, because in Balkan they were Latinophone. And some of them like specifically J2b1>Y22059* also later developed into Latinophone 12 century Montenegrin tribe known as Krichi.

There is no connection with J2b1 and other Vlach groups except of same adopted Latin language they spoken. Because of Orthodox religion and Slavicization of their territories most of J2b1>Y22059 members later identified with Serbs.
I believe about 90 or 95 per cent identifies with Serbs, even tho we were all clearly Latinophones not so long ago, and before that native Levantines and Semitic speakers.

Bachus
06-08-18, 14:59
Regarding J2b1>Y22059 and Vlach question, i have to make it clear one more time, that when we say Vlach we mean exclusively Roman Empire remains and Latinophones.
There is so many various meanings for word Vlach that its confusing to use it. Specifically J2b1>Y22059, that we are debating here about, is almost none existent in Aromuns.
So it was clearly some other wave of Roman time migrants, perhaps Byzantine one judging by TMRCA 1000 - 1300 years.

So J2-Y22059 is most likely from Roman Empire migrations from Levantine provinces. So to make it short we just say Vlach, because in Balkan they were Latinophone. And some of them like specifically J2b1>Y22059* also later developed into Latinophone 12 century Montenegrin tribe known as Krichi.

There is no connection with J2b1 and other Vlach groups except of same adopted Latin language they spoken. Because of Orthodox religion and Slavicization of their territories most of J2b1>Y22059 members later identified with Serbs.
I believe about 90 or 95 per cent identifies with Serbs, even tho we were all clearly Latinophones not so long ago, and before that native Levantines and Semitic speakers.

Latin speaking Balkanites never call themselves Vlachs. They call themselves Rramâni, Armâni, Români, Rumâni, Rumeri... They always indentified themselves with Rome.
Only people which call themselves "Vlachs" were sheperds of Slavic blood (sheperd caste). They celebrated Slavic god Veles (Volos) protector of sheperds
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veles_(god)
Vlachs = Slavic sheperd
Latin speaking Balkanites = Rrâmani, Armâni, Români, Rumâni, Rumeri...

Czech sheperds were known as Valašsi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valašská_Senice

Guido Anselmi
07-08-18, 00:41
Latin speaking Balkanites never call themselves Vlachs. They call themselves Rramâni, Armâni, Români, Rumâni, Rumeri... They always indentified themselves with Rome.
Only people which call themselves "Vlachs" were sheperds of Slavic blood (sheperd caste). They celebrated Slavic god Veles (Volos) protector of sheperds
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veles_(god)
Vlachs = Slavic sheperd
Latin speaking Balkanites = Rrâmani, Armâni, Români, Rumâni, Rumeri...

Czech sheperds were known as Valašsi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valašská_Senice

Vlach means different things at different times. Just because the Aroumanians referred to themselves Armani doesn't mean that they weren't Vlachs.

Vlach refers to various groups of Balkans, not necessarily related to one another, who spoke Vulgar Latin and often practised transhumance. Later on in SOME parts of the Balkans, but not all, the term Vlach was applied as a social category rather than an ethnic one.

This shouldn't be that difficult to understand.

One of the main streets in Zagreb is Vlaska Ulica (Vlach Street) named as such not because of shepherds nor a Balkan social class but rather because Italian shopkeepers and traders set up on that street.

There are histories beyond that of what Serbians are taught. That doesn't mean that Serbian history is always wrong (it isn't). Try and do some comparative research, it'll help you understand and play catch up.

LABERIA
07-08-18, 01:14
Vlachs" is a Slavic synonym for all Balkan sheperds, regardless if they are Latin, Slavic, Greek or any other language speakers. "Vlachs" = sheperd in the Balkans and central Europe, and nothing else. Word "Vlach" originated from Slavic god Veles, protector of sheperds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veles_(god)

Only people which call themselves "Vlachs" were sheperds of Slavic blood (sheperd caste). They celebrated Slavic god Veles (Volos) protector of sheperds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veles_(god)
Vlachs = Slavic sheperd

https://youtu.be/J3AxvQlWkN4

Bachus
07-08-18, 01:57
https://youtu.be/J3AxvQlWkN4

Deretić is right for origin of word vlach. :good_job: Vlachs = Slavic sheperds which celebtated Slavic god Veles. VELES = VLACHS.

Romanians are mix of vulgar Latin speaking imigrants from Epirus, Thessaly, Macedonia and Bulgaria which arrived to modern Romania from 12th to 14th century, and Slavs which lived in modern Romania since early middle age, plus minor Turkic influence (from Cumans, Pechenegs and Tatars).
Vlachs from eastern Serbia are originally Rumâni, they adopted Slavic name Vlachs from Serbs in the last 100-150 years.
Majority of Latin speaking population of Epirus, southern Albania, Theassaly and Macedonia always call themselves Rramâni and Armâni, and never Vlachs.
Megleno-Vlachs are only Latin speaking Balkanites which call themselves Vlachs, because they were under strong Slavic influence and they adopted Slavic word Vlachs for ethnic name. Megleno-Vlachs were always farmers, unlike other Latin speaking Balkanites which were semi-nomadic sheperds, that is also Slavic legacy among Megleno-Vlachs.

Vast majority of people which call themselves Vlachs in the middle age were genetically Slavic and Slavic speakers. Vlachs = Slavic sheperd caste (name originated from slavic god Veles).

Johane Derite
07-08-18, 08:55
Bachus its good to know that you're an official Deretic subscriber (serbs are aliens that created civillization and that started the white race theory blah blah)

The origin of the term Vlachs is not a mystery and is well recorded and documented. No need for you to make it up


LINK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs

Vlachs (English: /ˈvlɑːk/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/English) or /ˈvlæk/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/English), or rarely /ˈvlɑːx/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/English)), also Wallachians (and many other variants[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-Significance-1)), is a historical term from the Middle Ages which designates an exonym (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exonym) (a name given by foreigners) used mostly for the Romanians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanians) who lived north and south of the Danube (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube).[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-2)

The word Vlach/Wallachian (and other variants such as Vlah, Valah, Valach, Voloh, Blac, Oláh, Vlas, Ilac, Ulah, etc.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-Significance-1)) is etymologically derived from the ethnonym of a Celtic tribe,[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-FOOTNOTETanner2004203-8)adopted into Proto-Germanic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages) *Walhaz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walhaz) which meant "stranger", from *Wolkā-[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-Ringe_2009-9) (Caesar's Latin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language): Volcae, Strabo and Ptolemy's Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Ouolkai). [10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-NuorluotoLeiwo2001-10) Via Latin, in Gothic, as *walhs, the ethnonym took on the meaning "foreigner" or "Romance-speaker",[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-NuorluotoLeiwo2001-10) and was adopted into Greek Vláhi (Βλάχοι), Slavic Vlah, Hungarian oláh and olasz, etc.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-11)[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-12) The root word was notably adopted in Germanic for Wales (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales) and Walloon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walloons) (German (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language): Welsch),[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-FOOTNOTETanner2004203-8) and in Poland Włochy or in Hungary olasz became an exonym for Italians.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-NuorluotoLeiwo2001-10)[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-Significance-1)
Historically, the term was used primarily for the Romanians.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-Significance-1)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-en-3) Testimonies from the 13th-14th centuries show that, although in the European (and even extra-European) space they were called Vlachs or Wallachians (Oláh in Hungarian, Vláchoi (βλάχοι) in Greek, Volóxi (воло́хи) in Russian, Walachen in German, Valacchi in Italian, Valaques in French, Valacos in Spanish), the Romanians used for themselves the endonym (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endonym) "Rumân/Român", from the Latin "Romanus" (in memory of Rome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome)).[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-Significance-1)
Via both Germanic and Latin, the term started to signify "stranger, foreigner" also in the Balkans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans), where it in its early form was used for Romance-speakers, but the term eventually took on the meaning of "shepherd, nomad".[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-FOOTNOTETanner2004203-8) The Romance-speaking communities themselves however used the endonym (they called themselves) "Romans".[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-13)
During the early history of the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans, there was a social class of Vlachs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlach_(Ottoman_social_class)) in Serbia and Macedonia, made up of Christians who served as auxiliary forces and had the same rights as Muslims.[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-14) In Croatia, the term became derogatory, and Vlasi was used for the ethnic Serb (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serb) community.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-FOOTNOTETanner2004203-8)
Romanian scholars have suggested that the term Vlach appeared for the first time in the Eastern Roman Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Roman_Empire) and was subsequently spread to the Germanic- and then Slavic-speaking worlds through the Norsemen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsemen) (possibly by Varangians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangians)), who were in trade and military contact with Byzantium (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium) during the early Middle Ages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Middle_Ages) (see also Blakumen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blakumen)).[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-15)[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-16)
Nowadays, the term Vlachs (also known under other names, such as "Koutsovlachs", "Tsintsars", "Karagouni", "Chobani", "Vlasi", etc.[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-17)) is used in scholarship for the Romance-speaking communities in the Balkans, especially those in Greece, Albania and Macedonia.[18] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-FOOTNOTEDemirta%C5%9F-Co%C5%9Fkun2001-18)[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-FOOTNOTETanner2004-19) In Serbia the term Vlach (Serbian Vlah, plural Vlasi) is also used to refer to Romanian speakers, especially those living in eastern Serbia.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-en-3) Aromanians themselves use the endonym "Armãn" (plural "Armãni") or "Rãmãn" (plural "Rãmãni"), etymologically from "Romanus", meaning "Roman". Megleno-Romanians designate themselves with the Macedonian form Vla (plural Vlaš) in their own language.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-en-3)

Dema
16-08-18, 21:19
Albanian Bloodlines Project (http://www.gjenetika.com/) got another J2b1a. At the moment he cannot be further classified then J2b1-M205>? but seems he might be connected with one of clades that is also found in Greece but with higher TMRCA, according to ungrateful Y37 calculation, TMRCA is around 1500 years or GD 9/37 with that Greek sample.

I would call it South Albanian - Greek branch of probably Phoenician or Roman migration.

Dema
17-08-18, 16:58
Also, since now i can see 3 tested Krichi surnames, i am more ready to accept Krichi theory. Krichi tribe was for sure predominantly J2b1a and probably expansion of all J2>Y22059+ was not far away from Montenegro area.

Mercurial
20-08-18, 19:19
First of all, all of this was really cancerous to read : D I thought that ban would last longer, so I haven't been visiting the thread. I'd just like to add a few things that are not too related to genetics, but to geography of my bloodline, and also to Vlach derivative names around the place where I live. I currently live in Leskovac, but my ancestors came from Novo Selo, which was near Mlaciste (which was also known for having a large amount of Sarakatsani [Karakačani, which could have also been called Vlasi or Vlachs due to their shepherding]). I will post a few pictures of places that are near my town that bear the name of Vlachs. These include Vlase no.1 (Village near the Kosovo boreder), Vlase no.2 (Village near Leskovac), Vlasotince (a small town near Leskovac), Vlasina (a river flowing through Vlasotince) and last, but not the least, Vlasinsko jezero (a south east of Leskovac). All of these names of places clearly show an abundant influence of Vlachs in this area. In my village (Orasac, east of Leskovac) there is a story that we come from Greeks (Sarakatsani), but as I concluded before with Dema, it might be that most J2b1 migrants were called Greeks because of the influence of Eastern Roman Empire and Greek language in Levant. I also can't help but notice that Dema keeps saying that our J2b1 forebears must have spoken Latin. I think it's more likely that Greek was an official language in Levant back then, since the cultural and language barrier was the major influence behind the division between East and West Roman Empire.


Take care y'all :)

P.S. I can't post links or pictures since I don't have enough posts here -.-' If you want the link or the picture, dm me.

dyusupova
23-08-18, 00:41
Hi to everyone. I just wanted to mention that there is a small town Qirmizi Qasaba in Azerbaijan with population over 10000 people and all of them are J2b1. I will be very thankful to any respond on this subject.

Dema
23-08-18, 17:44
Hi to everyone. I just wanted to mention that there is a small town Qirmizi Qasaba in Azerbaijan with population over 10000 people and all of them are J2b1. I will be very thankful to any respond on this subject.


Hello, i see that you put designation MtDNA: J2b1. We are debating here about Y-DNA J2b1-M205 paternal haplogroup.
I just want to make sure there is no confusion because i know there is also J2b1 MtDNA.


Best regards.

Dema
23-08-18, 18:22
First of all, all of this was really cancerous to read : D I thought that ban would last longer, so I haven't been visiting the thread. I'd just like to add a few things that are not too related to genetics, but to geography of my bloodline, and also to Vlach derivative names around the place where I live. I currently live in Leskovac, but my ancestors came from Novo Selo, which was near Mlaciste (which was also known for having a large amount of Sarakatsani [Karakačani, which could have also been called Vlasi or Vlachs due to their shepherding]). I will post a few pictures of places that are near my town that bear the name of Vlachs. These include Vlase no.1 (Village near the Kosovo boreder), Vlase no.2 (Village near Leskovac), Vlasotince (a small town near Leskovac), Vlasina (a river flowing through Vlasotince) and last, but not the least, Vlasinsko jezero (a south east of Leskovac). All of these names of places clearly show an abundant influence of Vlachs in this area. In my village (Orasac, east of Leskovac) there is a story that we come from Greeks (Sarakatsani), but as I concluded before with Dema, it might be that most J2b1 migrants were called Greeks because of the influence of Eastern Roman Empire and Greek language in Levant. I also can't help but notice that Dema keeps saying that our J2b1 forebears must have spoken Latin. I think it's more likely that Greek was an official language in Levant back then, since the cultural and language barrier was the major influence behind the division between East and West Roman Empire.


Take care y'all :)

P.S. I can't post links or pictures since I don't have enough posts here -.-' If you want the link or the picture, dm me.


Mercurial best regards,

looks like our branch Y22059,Y22066 is one of most northern Balkan branches of J2-M205. Other branches are more south, like in South Albania and Greece. Then Sardinia or Cyprus.
Since we agreed that Kriçi tribe was predominantly J2-M205>Y22059*, and since we know based on many tests that current TMRCA of all Y22059 is around 1200 years so that is like 300 or 400 years prior to Kriçi tribe we assume that our MRCA lived somewhere around Montenegro, and that one of brotherhoods later formed Kriçi tribe.

Going geographically, our ancestor was for sure Latin speaker and prior to that Semitic. Also looks like Kriçi were part of larger Mataruge population so again they were for sure Latin speakers.
After Slavicization most of them identified with Serbs. Going by Ottoman census, Kriçi have Slavic names first time in 15 century.

Going by SNPs and STRs, our closest matches except ourselves (1200 years TMRCA) are in Middle East and not Greece or South Albania.
Our first matches are in Palestine, Qatar, Jordan, then second wave goes Palestine and Qatar again.

They are 4800 years away tho. and we have only 1200 years TMRCA. So anyone can fill the vacuum. In future we might find haplotype that will fall into our branch but with higher separation, he might be Greek, but looks like Palestine, Lebanon and Jordan are best places to look for so far. Also its possible that our closer matches vanished in bottleneck, which would again leave Middle Eastern ones as our closest ones.

Unfortunately we could not confirm J2b1-M205 at Minoans who were J2a mostly. Looks like most of J2b-M205 spread in Balkan with Phoenicians and Romans, and perhaps some clades with Byzantines like specifically our clade looking at all the evidence so far.


Also note about these Vlach groups connected with Greece, that there was already major study on Balkan Vlachs and only one had J2b1, he is from South Albania, and he is not connected to our branch but rather some South Albanian - Greek branch.
We cannot know who was shepherd or not, but we can know that we were Latin speakers with Levantine origin arrived in Balkan. Most likely in Roman times. New Ancient DNA find can change all this but so far it looks just like that.

Mercurial
28-08-18, 22:17
Greetings Dema, yeah, I don't doubt the Levant hypothesis. I am just not certain how are you so sure our forebears spoke Latin and not Greek? They may have spoken Latin for a certain time, when the Roman Empire was whole, but after the separation, Byzantium/East Roman Empire took up Greek as an official language, so that must have been the case in Levant. Or am I wrong here? Krici may have been Latin speakers, but they were much closer to the West Roman Empire border. I am talking about the time in Levant, they surely spoke Semitic, then Latin for a few hundred years, and then Greek for few hundred years during the Byzantium, and only after migration into Balkans adopted the regional languages? I think this hypothesis has good grounding. I am not claiming J2b1 is Greek or anything like that, just that many of our forebears spoke Greek at some point. I am also very curious as to weather there have been any Y haplogroup studies done on Sarakatsani?

Dema
02-09-18, 00:25
Greetings Dema, yeah, I don't doubt the Levant hypothesis. I am just not certain how are you so sure our forebears spoke Latin and not Greek? They may have spoken Latin for a certain time, when the Roman Empire was whole, but after the separation, Byzantium/East Roman Empire took up Greek as an official language, so that must have been the case in Levant. Or am I wrong here? Krici may have been Latin speakers, but they were much closer to the West Roman Empire border. I am talking about the time in Levant, they surely spoke Semitic, then Latin for a few hundred years, and then Greek for few hundred years during the Byzantium, and only after migration into Balkans adopted the regional languages? I think this hypothesis has good grounding. I am not claiming J2b1 is Greek or anything like that, just that many of our forebears spoke Greek at some point. I am also very curious as to weather there have been any Y haplogroup studies done on Sarakatsani?

Because all of us tested with Y-111 plus, so far have TMRCA around 1200 years, and we have tribe identified with this haplogroup that is dating 900 years back in northern Montenegro. They were Latin speakers. Based on that we assume that our MRCA who lived 1200 years ago also lived nearby or in Montenegro region. More south are Albanians on mountains, they were also under Latin influence.

We cannot identify this branch in Greekophone areas. There is other J2b1 branches more South in Albania and Greece and we dont know almost anything about them or where they belong since none of them did more serious tests.

I dont know about Y-dna studies on Sarakatsani, they were not included in this Vlach Latin speaking Balkan groups in Bosch et al.
Byzantine hypothesis is based mostly on TMRCA. We actually dont know how long are we in Balkan. Byzantine time is minimum.


For what we can conclude so far is that you are much closely related to Latin speaking Kriçi tribe then Greek speaking Sarakatsani ethnic group. Even tho i dont know your precise results but i assume that you are Y22059+ and that your haplotype is not far away from modal haplotype.

My best regards :)

Dema
04-09-18, 18:13
There has been some important update on Yfull, it seems they fixed important glitch were some results would have extremely low acceptance of valid SNPs that would be considered into a TMRCA calculation.
As a result of this fix, some samples like myself but also some other samples and branch TMRCAs changed, into more accurate one for sure.

Now when looking at Y22063, we can see that instead of 1 accepted SNP, now i have 5.2 calculated TMRCA SNPs, and by my line TMRCA of Y22063 is 840 years.
I think this is much closer to reality, and it should be perhaps 50 - 150 years higher but i am happy even with this, because previous calculation was very wrong.
Novakovic has 6.8 SNPs, and Batocanin 3.2. As it looks now, it seems that Batocanin result is actually bringing TMRCA down as it should for sure be at least 1000 years.

These changes of mostly my results also upped the Y22059+ general TMRCA to 1100 years.

We can see same thing happened also in one of main Albanian R1b branches where Greek sample now has 7 SNPs accepted instead of 1 before (same like me), so as a result of that change TMRCA of entire group went up from 1000 to 1200 years - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/


I would also like to say that there is 6 Albanians so far identified with J2b1-M205. Two from public researches, two from 23andme, and two from Albanian Bloodlines Project (http://www.gjenetika.com/)
Where we have at least 3 different branches among them, and one of them has DYS388 12 which is very unique and interesting variation, he can be whole separate branch.


EDIT: There is also new sample from Serbia added to Yfull (YF14966), his result has not yet been accepted into TMRCA calculation. We will see how will he change TMRCA after his novel SNPs are accepted.

dyusupova
11-09-18, 01:23
hello Dema,yes you are right it is MtDNA , but my paternal DNA even more confusing it is J-L24. have you heard anything about that haplogroup. Sincerely

Dora

Dema
11-09-18, 22:01
hello Dema,yes you are right it is MtDNA , but my paternal DNA even more confusing it is J-L24. have you heard anything about that haplogroup. Sincerely

Dora


Hi Dora, i have not heard something specific about it but i haven't yet explored many lines and so far none of J2a lines, where your paternal line also falls in.

J2a, and J2b split from the same father 27 800 years ago, according to Yfull. J2a diversified since Mesolithic and each subclade needs to be looked at specifically.
Maciamo says: J2a1-L24 is the most widespread subclade of J2a, with a distribution ranging from the Middle East to Europe, North Africa and South Asia.
(I guess you father falls in some Middle Eastern branch?)

In Yfull i see some similarities with J2b1.

You can see it here in Yfull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L24/ so its J2a-M410>L24>?
It has many branches, now it depends where your paternal line falls in. It would be best to do at least 67 marker test (in FTDNA?) to try to identify more precise subclade and Y-DNA relatives if there is any.


Best regards, Dema.

Dema
13-09-18, 20:16
EDIT: There is also new sample from Serbia added to Yfull (YF14966), his result has not yet been accepted into TMRCA calculation. We will see how will he change TMRCA after his novel SNPs are accepted.


I see that his SNPs have been accepted by Yfull calculation today, he has below average number of novel SNPs under Y22059*, TMRCA by his line is 860 years, as a result of that TMRCA of Y22059* went down from 1100 to 1000 years.
And since he is Y22063 negative, TMRCA of Y22063 remained unchanged - 800 years.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22059/

Lenab
19-10-18, 02:24
Deretić is right for origin of word vlach. :good_job: Vlachs = Slavic sheperds which celebtated Slavic god Veles. VELES = VLACHS.

Romanians are mix of vulgar Latin speaking imigrants from Epirus, Thessaly, Macedonia and Bulgaria which arrived to modern Romania from 12th to 14th century, and Slavs which lived in modern Romania since early middle age, plus minor Turkic influence (from Cumans, Pechenegs and Tatars).
Vlachs from eastern Serbia are originally Rumâni, they adopted Slavic name Vlachs from Serbs in the last 100-150 years.
Majority of Latin speaking population of Epirus, southern Albania, Theassaly and Macedonia always call themselves Rramâni and Armâni, and never Vlachs.
Megleno-Vlachs are only Latin speaking Balkanites which call themselves Vlachs, because they were under strong Slavic influence and they adopted Slavic word Vlachs for ethnic name. Megleno-Vlachs were always farmers, unlike other Latin speaking Balkanites which were semi-nomadic sheperds, that is also Slavic legacy among Megleno-Vlachs.

Vast majority of people which call themselves Vlachs in the middle age were genetically Slavic and Slavic speakers. Vlachs = Slavic sheperd caste (name originated from slavic god Veles).

You speak of South Romanians regarding the Vlach.

Dema
27-10-18, 16:11
You speak of South Romanians regarding the Vlach.



Regarding Vlachs there was already major Y-DNA study about Aromuns/Vlachs in Balkan, Bosch et al 2006.

They tested Albanians, Greeks, Macedonians, Romanians from Constanta, Romanians from Ploiesti, Aromuns from Dukasi in Albania, Aromuns from Andon Poci in Albania, Aromuns from Krusevo in Macedonia, Aromuns from the Stip region in Macedonia and Aromuns from Romania.

The only two J2-M205 samples from this study were found in Albania. One at Aromun in Andon Poçi and another one at Albanian in Tirana. So at least from year 2006 we know there is J2-M205 presence at Albanians in Tirana.


We cannot classify J2-M205 as "Vlach haplogroup", even tho some clades were obviously Latinized. My best educated guess based on Ancient DNA, TMRCA and distribution would be that most of J2-M205 clades spread into the Europe with Canaanites like Phoenicians (confirmed by aDNA) and later Romans (also confirmed by aDNA). Therefore its normal we find it in all Mediterranean populations.


J2-M205 is Mediterranean and Middle Eastern haplogroup.


J2-M205>CTS1969>PH4306>Y22059, having two brother clades in Palestine and also Sardinia, England and Spain shows high possibility of being of Phoenician migration or later Roman one from territories of once ancient Phoenicia.

There is also Qatar samples more upstream of Y22059 but downstream of Palestine sample with TMRCA 1600 years. I would guess that they are also migrants with origin from Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan or surrounding areas.

I will comment soon more about J2-M205, there is also J-Y45447 branch much clearer now, a branch that extended south to Oman and Yemen, and perhaps also with more distant origin (1000 BCE) from direction of Saudi Arabia and prior to that more north Lebanon, Palestine and surrounding areas.

Dema
14-01-19, 21:06
I would like to address this post to some of my previous theories, primarily to the one regarding the branch where i also fall in, J2-M205>Y22059 so known "Balkan branch" and Byzantine theory. I was focused too much only on TMRCA before when i made this Byzantine arrival theory.
Also i didnt have experience in observing various clades as i do now. Major mistake i made was that i only focused on TMRCA as main indicator of time of arrival which is wrong, and i didnt look at other facts like closest relatives which could actually more then TMRCA indicate the time of separation and arrival.

Futhermore observing our autosomal tests, but also closest Y-dna relatives which are as we know in Qatar, Palestine, Sicily, Sardinia, England, France and so on.. But also potentially Albania, Italy, Greece, Cyprus but J2-M205 is not yet properly explored among them so we are expecting new discoveries in future.

Therefore as Balkan branch J2-M205>CTS1969>PH4306>Y22059 has first wave of relatives dispersed mostly around Mediterranean sea, being far as 4900 ybp. Brings me to the conclusion that this clade might have also spread with some sea people just as its brother clades from East Mediterranean all the way to England primarily falling into CTS1969. Having Sidonian 1700 BCE confirmed ancient DNA, Phoenicians are best candidates.


Trivial video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvzXRtAe0Mw

Dema
15-01-19, 02:49
Just went thru research of about 500 Lebanon samples, found seven J2-M205 samples which would be about 1.4 per cent. There is more then one branch found but i haven't yet analyse STRs.
This is solid number of tested people so i would conclude that average number of M205 among Lebanese people is from 1 to 2 per cent.

This contradicts researches that try to take false conclusions like this one tried: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-25912-9
Saying : "No J2b-M12 carriers were found among 35 modern Lebanese, as contrasted to one of two ancient specimens from the same region"

Got a love these "researchers" that try to deny M205 in Lebanese people when they tested only 35 samples and they bring conclusions based on that, lol.
As we see J2-M205 is found 1 - 2 % in Lebanon, so they would need at least 100 people to perhaps catch a sample or even two if they are lucky.

Also went thru Italians and seems J2-M205 is present there also in multiple branches from North to South (incl Sardinia).
Among Greeks i managed to find only one sample but we know from other studies that it has strong presence in Greece also.

One more interesting thing, we just got J2-M205 sample into our Albanian project.
From Eqrem Cаbej relative, he is confirmed J2-M205 and we will see about the branch where he falls in, i would call it so far South Albanian M205 branch as its represented there and we actually have it in 4 samples so far from South Albania.

Eqrem Çabej (6 August 1908 – 13 August 1980) was an Albanian historical linguist and scholar who, through the publication of numerous studies gained a reputation as a key expert in the research into Albanian-language, literature, ethnology and linguistics.
https://gazetavatra.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/eqerem_cabej.jpg

Gash
16-01-19, 21:34
How related to you are those branches in South Albania ? very interesting.

Dema
16-01-19, 23:23
How related to you are those branches in South Albania ? very interesting.

I dont know, we never had a chance to further test Albanian M205 samples as they are pretty rare and hard to find.
We know about Italian, Greek, Cyprus samples but also none of them has also done any SNP test or serious testing, its usually up to 37 markers with no SNP tests.
So no one knows where they fall in.

Both South Albanian branches are being upgraded to CTS1969 SNP then we see after that.
If they are positive to CTS1969 then under that highest chances are YP13 or Y22075:

http://i63.tinypic.com/oksmcx.jpg




They will most likely be some kind of brother clade to us. But there is really multiple possibilities.

Gash
17-01-19, 00:50
Ok. Very interesting. Cool to see another Albo test J2b1 and that a Cabej. Will keep myself updated on this.

Dema
17-01-19, 01:56
Regarding M205 at Albanians,

Very interesting, our both branches from South Albania turned out to be CTS1969 negative.
Looks like M205 has high diversity in Mediterranean Sea and simply there is many branches that dont have relatives within thousands of years, rather then all of us belonging to same branch.

So, one of our South Albanian branches has been already identified in Greece with SNP test CTS1969-, so we could have knew that one of these will be CTS1969 negative but its also always good to double check.
Looks like a small branch so far, one Greek from Greece, one Albanian from South, one Aromun from South Albania, and one Sicilian are falling into this cluster of J2-M205.

While into our another South Albanian branch we have 4 Tosks from South Albania, where Cabej also falls in.

Its worth to mention there is also third still unidentified M205 branch with high diversity in Tirana in Albania but we didnt manage yet to get any of these in our project.

And i fall into our fourth branch, where i still dont have anyone closer then about 800 - 1000 years. And i share same TMRCA with all samples who are under Y22059/Y22066 within range of about 1000 - 1200 years.
As this group was native Montenegrin, today its partially slavicized and mostly found among Serbs.
But our both Albanian 23andme samples, one from Central Albania and one from Montenegro have high chances to fall into this group.
Also we have Greek and Italian samples falling into this group.

Mercurial
18-01-19, 02:11
Thanks for new inputs Dema! I swear I read earlier that there were already samples found in Levant of m205. I don't know where you read that it cannot be found. Still, 1-2% is still too small of a percentage. Anyways, I got some tiny amount of new info on my sample. They tested me only for 17 markers, but I don't have all the markers. I only know SNP 385ab has a value 16-20. I fall under Y22059/Y22066, and probably Y22063+. The study I was referring to earlier is still not published or done... and it's been almost 3-4 years. They are really slacking it seems : )

Dema
18-01-19, 18:49
Thanks for new inputs Dema! I swear I read earlier that there were already samples found in Levant of m205. I don't know where you read that it cannot be found. Still, 1-2% is still too small of a percentage.

No problem, its fun to explore M205.

Its found in entire Middle East, with much smaller percentage in modern Israel then in their surrounding neighbors. I am currently in depth exploring M205 and i will have much more info in future.
1 - 2 % in Lebanon is not small percentage but excellent percentage. As that is average percentage so far for J2b-M205 in Middle East and Mediterranean Sea , with Cyprus being highest 5.9 % and our clade Y22059 had solid founder effect expanding to 1-3 % on some specific areas.



Anyways, I got some tiny amount of new info on my sample. They tested me only for 17 markers, but I don't have all the markers. I only know SNP 385ab has a value 16-20. I fall under Y22059/Y22066, and probably Y22063+. The study I was referring to earlier is still not published or done... and it's been almost 3-4 years. They are really slacking it seems : )

Looks like they got results long ago but its taking them ages to analyse results and bring some conclusion they want to bring.. Do you know what is study name?

STR value DYS385ab 16-20 is not that common as you can see in J2-M172 project. Closest to that am i with DYS385ab 16-19 and Bulgars with value 15-20.

Regarding our branch Y22059 - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22059/, its clear that all samples downstream of Y22059 share same TMRCA - 1000 years, currently by Yfull.
So no matter are you Y22063 or Kriçi clade for example that is Y22063- (negative), we all share same ancestor (Y22059) who lived probably around 1200 years ago (1000 by Yfull so far).

For example looks like i specifically separated from rest of Y22059 about 800 - 1000 years ago, but that is also time when our MRCA lived (most recent common ancestor).
Therefore even tho i dont have anyone closer then 800 - 1000 years, all of us who are Y22059 arrived from the same place and from a same brotherhood or person 1000 - 1200 years ago.

As Kriçi tribe is recorded in 12 century in Montenegro and they share this SNP, i have chosen Montenegro for being a place of our primary expansion and possibly further more distant origin.

http://i68.tinypic.com/ou71ao.jpg

Mercurial
18-01-19, 19:23
I don't know, but SANU (Serbian academy of science and arts) is doing the research... and trough some internal info m205 seems to be abundant from Trgovište to Svrljig. I know we share common ancestor. I don't know why you pointed that out. It's possible that Montenegro is the origin, but who knows. I know that in the 15th, 16th century, my ancestors were still in south of Serbia, specifically Novo Selo, we carry a nickname of sorts "Novoselci", or people who came from Novo Selo. It is possible that some of our ancestors adopted Bogomilism and were therefore expelled to Bosnia where they branched out. I don't know the timeline of Bosnian samples... It's a possibility still, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Dema
18-01-19, 19:41
I don't know, but SANU (Serbian academy of science and arts) is doing the research... and trough some internal info m205 seems to be abundant from Trgovište to Svrljig. I know we share common ancestor. I don't know why you pointed that out. It's possible that Montenegro is the origin, but who knows. I know that in the 15th, 16th century, my ancestors were still in south of Serbia, specifically Novo Selo, we carry a nickname of sorts "Novoselci", or people who came from Novo Selo. It is possible that some of our ancestors adopted Bogomilism and were therefore expelled to Bosnia where they branched out. I don't know the timeline of Bosnian samples... It's a possibility still, I'd like to hear your thoughts.


Because some other people seemed not to understand this, i am sorry if i stated the obvious : )


With this SNP Y22059 you can assume history 1200 years back, probably Montenegrin origin. For more recent and detailed history you first need to compare all of your 17 markers from that research with other Y22059 samples and see do you maybe have some recent closer match.
For example if you match 15/17 markers with someone and these two are faster mutating markers its possible that you guys could form TMRCA of 500 years or so or even you could get 17/17 match, then you could potentially know more recent history by analyzing the guy you split from lets say 500 or 300 years ago.

It will be hard to bring such conclusions only on 17 markers. I would say 37 is minimum so you can be sure of somewhat accurate distance. Even 67 or 111 is recommended.

It all depends on your closest matches and how far are they. When research will be published let me know, i would like to take a look at it.

saversiplm
19-01-19, 21:09
Hello guys sorry for my stupid question:I took and ancestery dna and used other tools to find my haplogtoup and they say its j2b1.Are those tools pretty accurate?I am from Arad,Romania.Maybe at some point i will update but not this year for sure

Dema
20-01-19, 12:17
Hello guys sorry for my stupid question:I took and ancestery dna and used other tools to find my haplogtoup and they say its j2b1.Are those tools pretty accurate?I am from Arad,Romania.Maybe at some point i will update but not this year for sure

This kind of tests are ideal for beginners to waste their money, sadly. However, i would say that your haplogroup prediction is accurate. It would be best if you test 37 or 67 markers at FTDNA for beginning.
There was ideal opportunity now for holidays i think it was 90$ for Y-37. Wait for such opportunities you can get it in half price.


Best regards : )

Mercurial
22-01-19, 01:29
Ok, so new updates. I do have 15-20 on 385ab, I was mistaken. Now i will present the 17 markers.

DYS393 12
DYS390 23
DYS19 15
DYS391 10
DYS385a 15
DYS385b 20
DYS439 12
DYS389i 12
DYS392 12
DYS389ii 28
DYS458 15
DYS437 14
DYS448 19
YGATAH4 12
DYS456 14
DYS438 9
DYS635 20


Furthermore, I looked deeper into historical data and found that Stojanovics (my last name) in Novo Selo moved there from Bulgaria a long time ago. So 15-20 on 385ab does correlate with "Bulgars"... as you mentioned above. Also, Novo Selo is near Mlaciste where Sarakatsani (Karakacani) came at one point from Bulgaria, and south western Bulgaria (Rila and Samokov towns) has a lot of Sarakatsani, so it is still a possible theory that we do indeed come from Sarakatsani (which are native Greek) at one point, even though we do come from Levant looking further back. It would be interesting to compare if there are any M205 Bulgars from that area and if they might have Sarakatsani heritage. It also correlates with people calling us "Greeks" in Orasac. The place where Stojanovics moved after Novo Selo. We also gained a nickname Novoselci when we moved there. I thought this might be interesting. Cheers.

Mercurial
22-01-19, 02:13
I found one Bulgarian sample so far with same markers so far. Atanas Petko Harizanov(1880-1959) Ditchin (Tesal)

P.S. I have no idea how to attach pictures so i will post a link: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/bulgariandna/default.aspx?section=yresults

Dema
22-01-19, 11:32
Hello, i will look at this, very interesting, thanks for sharing. I think you named one marker wrong by accident i dont know which marker it is? "DYS45 14"

Mercurial
22-01-19, 12:31
Yeah, it's DYS456 14

Dema
23-01-19, 01:38
Hello, i have looked at situation.

Bulgar with DYS385ab 15-20 is atypical among Bulgars as almost all of them have values 15-19 there.
Also this specific Bulgar did only 12 markers therefore we cannot be sure where he branches out.

Your closest match is Ostojic from Podunavski Okrug, you two match at GD 3/17. Within these 3 differences (DYS458, GATAH, DYS456) two are fast mutating markers.
Therefore i would say that TMRCA with you and Ostojic is probably 300 - 600 years. Since you two live 80km approximately one from another, and you two share speculative TMRCA of 300 - 600 years, i would say that you both live at this area at least that long as much your TMRCA is.
Since you two are confirmed in Montenegro 1200 years ago, and now you are confirmed in Podunavski Okrug - Novo Selo relation for about 500 years ago. I dont see how this leaves time for participation among Sarakatsani, Greeks or something else.

Looks like you are Kriçi tribal that is living not far away from Montenegro where Kriçi tribe originates from.


Also note that Ostojic did bigY test and he is Y22063 negative. Therefore i would assume that you are negative as well.

Note also that there is Hungarian with these values DYS385ab 15-20 that matches you and Ostojic 12/12 but on 37 markers him and Ostojic are not that close as you and Ostojic are.
Therefore i would conclude that only you and Ostojic fall into same group, and these that are at similar or lower distance if there is any.

Mercurial
23-01-19, 02:56
Yeah, I was resting on the assumption that 15-20 is typical for Bulgars, as you've said. Novo Selo is not approximately 80 km from Podunavski okrug, there is at least 200km, but still, I see your point. I was alluding to pre-Krici period for Sarakatsani. Well I thought it made sense, it fit well with everything I read and knew about migration of my ancestors. I guess we'll never know why they call us Greeks x)

Thanks for the input!

Dema
23-01-19, 08:25
There is few roads in between Podunavski Okrug and Novo Selo, but i measured air line, which would be 80 km. Which is not that really far away, also when you look at map. No probs, have fun.

Mercurial
23-01-19, 15:41
It's 170km from the closest dot of Podunavski Okrug to Novo Selo.
https://imgur.com/a/uvvza5i Here's the picture.

There are many villages called Novo Selo in Serbia. I am referring to the one in the image, near Mlaciste...

Mercurial
25-01-19, 00:31
Where do you find matches? Like Ostojic and that Hungarian? Someone told me that Ostojici are from Novi Glog (Vranjsko Pomoravlje), and not Podunavski okrug.

Dema
25-01-19, 15:05
Where do you find matches? Like Ostojic and that Hungarian? Someone told me that Ostojici are from Novi Glog (Vranjsko Pomoravlje), and not Podunavski okrug.


They are both in official FTDNA J2-M172 project where most of J2 are. Me included. He stated as his ancestral surname to be Ostojic, maybe its not his modern surname.
I dont know. Also as i already said he did bigY and you can see he uploaded to Yfull when you put mouse over his sample it says location: Serbia, Podunavski Okrug - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/
It would be best if you contact Petar Demic as he seems fair guy when explaining things, also i am sure that he will know the answers to your questions.

Dema
26-01-19, 00:06
nvm i repost tomorrow with better pics

Dema
26-01-19, 13:31
As i said yesterday, there is new feature available in FTDNA for these that did BIG-Y test. Its called The Big Y Block Tree.


The Big Y Block Tree is a vertical-block diagram of the Y-DNA Haplotree showing the relationships between you and other Big Y testers. This tool helps you visualize how the paternal lineages of you and your matches are related to each other. You will also be able to see your matches’ branches and discover which autosomal origins and Paternal Countries of Origin have been reported for your branch and others. Please note that Big Y test is an exploratory test that is constantly discovering previously unknown SNPs. As new SNPs are discovered and added to the Y-DNA haplotree, this will alter the structure of the branches, and potentially move your branch further downstream. In addition, as more people test, it can help to refine SNPs currently thought to be equivalent to build an ever increasingly accurate SNP lineage. The Origins section is displayed at the top of the information card. This section displays the number of autosomal origins (myOrigins) related to that branch.

Basically we can look at Y-DNA phylogeny to understand it better also we can see autosomal components which are present at certain branches.
*Note that this takes into account only these that did BIG-Y + autosomal (family finder) test at FTDNA.

When looking at Y22066*/Y22059* and Y22063 sub-branches, its interesting because Southeast component is most prevailing.
Regarding Balkan and more specifically Montenegro in this case, Southeast represents Albanian or Paleo-Balkan autosomal components.
While East represents Slavic autosomal components. Its interesting to see even this sub-branch is currently made of 4 South-Slavs and 1 Albanian (all with 1200 ybp Montenegrin Y-DNA origin), Southeast component is most prevailing.



https://i.imgur.com/7vJa3f6.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/L1GHHnQ.jpg



Also when looking J2-M205 generally Southeast is significant with 15 %, with Asia Minor being the same percentage.
This results could change as more people do autosomal (family finder test). It would be good if other members from Middle East and under designations PF7321 and M205, if they would also do autosomal tests to get more complete picture.

https://i.imgur.com/k48n395.jpg






Just for compare and example, this is how situation stands within I2a-CTS10228* that we know is Slavic in origin and peaks in Bosnia and Hercegovina:

https://i.imgur.com/DzlREgm.jpg

Mercurial
20-02-19, 15:03
I did not respond to this comment since I still don't understand what all of this means and I don't have a lot of time to research. Is there a simpler explanation? :D

Dema
21-02-19, 08:06
We got our first Saudi Arabian sample who is CTS1969 positive!
Looks like he upped the entire J2-M205 TMRCA to 6000 years together with CTS1969 TMRCA, also looks like he is basal CTS1969?

As it can be seen on Yfull he is from Mekkah, Saudi Arabia. Mashallah! https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

Dema
24-02-19, 06:34
I did not respond to this comment since I still don't understand what all of this means and I don't have a lot of time to research. Is there a simpler explanation? :D


Have you done autosomal family finder test? It analyses your complete DNA 2000 years back. After 2.0 update things in Balkan regarding Albanian and Slavic populations are very clear.
East Europe component represents Slavic autosomal DNA, while Southeast Albanian one.

So we can take a extra peak into peoples autosomal results these way, partially at least to get somewhat of idea. For example if there is German into some branch and he scores 100 % West and Central Europe, and there is also Polish guy into a same branch and he scores 100 % East Europe in autosomal test. When they both do bigY test, their branch will be represented as 50 % West and Central Europe and 50 % East Europe by autosomal components.
Now as you can see on pictures above, there is actually branch I2a-S20602 where there is only one German and one Polish guy that have done familyfinder + bigY at FTDNA. So by their results, when you look on picture above, they partially score West and Central Europe, East Europe, and small percentage of Southeast Europe. Now when we look at that branch on Yfull, we can see that there is also plenty of Greeks and some Bulgars, Lithuanians, so if they all would do bigY and familyfinder at FTDNA these results would change.


Look for family finder test at FTDNA you can get it for low as 30 $ when all coupons and holiday discounts are applied. Because in addition when you look for Y-dna relatives, its also interesting to see your autosomal relatives and components.

Bachus
24-02-19, 08:40
Have you done autosomal family finder test? It analyses your complete DNA 2000 years back. After 2.0 update things in Balkan regarding Albanian and Slavic populations are very clear.
East Europe component represents Slavic autosomal DNA, while Southeast Albanian one.

So we can take a extra peak into peoples autosomal results these way, partially at least to get somewhat of idea. For example if there is German into some branch and he scores 100 % West and Central Europe, and there is also Polish guy into a same branch and he scores 100 % East Europe in autosomal test. When they both do bigY test, their branch will be represented as 50 % West and Central Europe and 50 % East Europe by autosomal components.
Now as you can see on pictures above, there is actually branch I2a-S20602 where there is only one German and one Polish guy that have done familyfinder + bigY at FTDNA. So by their results, when you look on picture above, they partially score West and Central Europe, East Europe, and small percentage of Southeast Europe. Now when we look at that branch on Yfull, we can see that there is also plenty of Greeks and some Bulgars, Lithuanians, so if they all would do bigY and familyfinder at FTDNA these results would change.


Look for family finder test at FTDNA you can get it for low as 30 $ when all coupons and holiday discounts are applied. Because in addition when you look for Y-dna relatives, its also interesting to see your autosomal relatives and components.

Family finder is commercial bs.
The best autosomal calculator is Eurogenes K13.

This is average Eurogenes K13 of 23 tested Serbs from various regions.
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=534211&d=1550928449

The highest Baltic score of these 23 Serbs have one Serb from Lika (I2-PH908) 33.79%.
On the second place is Serb from Banija (I2-PH908) with 33.25% Baltic.

Dema
27-02-19, 16:50
Family finder is commercial bs.
The best autosomal calculator is Eurogenes K13..


Who have told you this? Its not true. Have you done autosomal test? Family Finder is just one of tests offered by FTDNA. Family Finder then branches out into Matches, Chromosome Browser, Linked Relationships, myOrigins, ancientOrigins, and Wellness Report categories. Family finder also includes a labaratory DNA testing of your sample and provides you with raw data. What you wanted to say is probably about myOrigins category under Family Finder test. Its true that myOrigins is just a calculator, but with all due respect, out of all actual testing companies FTDNAs myOrigin is for sure most precize and well updated calculator. Currently myOrigin is very precize regarding Balkans and i would for sure take it into consideration.

The Eurogenes K13 is only one of free calculators offered by Gedmatch (free open data personal genomics database). Not an actual testing company. You can upload your raw data from Family Finder into Gedmatch to see how other calculators react on your raw data. There is plenty of useful and good calculators offered by Gedmatch and not only K13. There is newer calculator under Eurogenes project Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15. Then there are K9, K12, K36.
Also try MDLP K16 Modern, MDLP K23b, puntDNAL K10 Ancient, puntDNAL K12 Modern, puntDNAL K13 Global, puntDNAL K15, Ancient Eurasia K6, Gedrosia K3.
I have already run all these calculators and Albanians have actually mapped themselves long ago on K15 DNA map.
Also i would suggest uploading raw data to DNA Land as they also offer very interesting calculation for free. And dont only look at components that Gedmatch calculators displays but also look at population similarities and genetic distance from various populations.

It is important to understand difference between testing company and various calculators that work based on raw data produced by testing laboratories.

Gedmatch K13 is for sure good calculator but far away from being perfect or best. All of calculators work based on similarity and when realistically looking at all these calculators FTDNAs myOrigin is without doubt one of most accurate calculators out there. Then of course for more advance approach or some precise targeted area its good to run specific Gedmatch calculators.

This is few of Albanians from DNA community on Gedmatch K15 Eurogenes pca plotting map made long time ago:


http://i68.tinypic.com/s3kaqw.jpg

hrvat22
01-04-19, 15:47
How much I follow public DNA base for J2b M205 it is interesting that Albanians this branch does not have much. This branch is located in the area of Croatia where Vlachs are coming and it is very likely that comes from direction of Bulgaria or Serbia.

J2b M205 probably has nothing to do with arrival of Slavs but considering that Albanians have M205 less it is possible that this is a Bulgarian Vlach connection which would go from direction of Bulgaria possibly Romania through Serbia to the Croatia bypassing Albania, but it's strange that J2b M205 in Albanians is not in higher percentage considering that this is still a Balkan branch and they had to mix if they lived as neighbors(Albania-Bulgaria etc).

Dema
01-04-19, 20:35
How much I follow public DNA base for J2b M205 it is interesting that Albanians this branch does not have much. This branch is located in the area of Croatia where Vlachs are coming and it is very likely that comes from direction of Bulgaria or Serbia.

J2-M205 is classic Mediterranean and Proto-Semitic Cannanite haplogroup. We know that it is not Slavic in origin neither it arrived here with 7 century Early Slavs so it is pointless to even mention it.

Most spread branch in Balkan is one where i also fall in, Y22059. It is found among Krajina Croatian and Bosnian Serbs, but much rarer at Croats or Muslim Bosnjaks, and no existent in Slovenia.
Also at near Montenegro Serbia Serbs and at Montenegrins from Montenegro. With Serbs testing different Krici/Kricka related surnames they all turned out J2-M205>Y22059* therefore that is why we have basis to claim that Krici tribe was Y22059 dominant. Kriçi are 12 century early North Montenegrin tribe that everyone recorded as none Slavic natives. Also all of us falling in Y22059 clade have TMRCA around 1200 years, 1000 at a moment by Yfull. Which still goes in tribal time when Kriçi tribe was expanding or not much earlier. Montenegrins assimilated Kriçi into Montenegrin therefore Serb ethnos along side majority of that extraordinary Montenegrin 30 % of E-v13 and clades like J2b2, R1b and few others.

But there is multiple different branches of M205 in Balkans and more specifically in Albania, Greece, Italy, France, England, Cyprus, Lebanon and so on where most of branches have separation time 5000 - 6000 years one from another.
M205 is old Mediterranean haplogroup and even tho some Serbs were lying that its none existent among Albanians, after i went thru some studies i found Albanian samples exactly in studies where they claimed that there is none, one of them is my Y-DNA relative N Novakovic, Serbian administrator who lied about these things but when i arrived on lvl to double check his work analyzing STRs in studies where he claimed that there is no Albanians i managed to find them.


J2b M205 probably has nothing to do with arrival of Slavs but considering that Albanians have M205 less it is possible that this is a Bulgarian Vlach connection which would go from direction of Bulgaria possibly Romania through Serbia to the Croatia bypassing Albania, but it's strange that J2b M205 in Albanians is not in higher percentage considering that this is still a Balkan branch and they had to mix if they lived as neighbors(Albania-Bulgaria etc).

J2-M205 is a bit lower at Albanians then it supposed to be, but actually when comparing Italians, Greeks, Spaniards and so on, J2-M205 is just solid in Albania.
I have managed to find 10 Albanians so far, we have 4 different branches and TMRCA 6000 years. Our branch Y22059 included and its nothing special in comparing to other Mediterranean M205 branches.

Serbs have abnormal presence of M205, only because of assimilation of one complete developed Montenegrin tribe, which their TMRCA also shows, 1000 years.
Same as they did with Vasojevici, another Montenegrin E-v13 tribe and its clade is also missing among Albanians, but we have found it finally and looks like it separated about 800 years earlier then Vasojevici and Croatian clades combined.

Origin of M205 is not Bulgaria neither they have percentage neither variations, but rather all Mediterranean countries where it peaks at Cyprus. Ancient DNA is from 2500 BCE Jordan and 1700 BCE Lebanon Sidon.
We have one Branch of M205 that has spread from Lebanon Palestine all south to Oman and Yemen, incl some Mumbai Jews.


Best candidates for spread of M205 on Mediterranean Sea are Phoenicians because we clearly have Phoenician 1700 BCE Sidon ancient DNA and most of branches are for thousands of years one from another. Exception for few branches like Spanish-Puerto Rico branch that shares TMRCA with Palestine and Saudis 2000 years so we could speculate about Roman migration, most of branches are much older.

hrvat22
01-04-19, 22:04
Dema (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/54609-Dema)

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J2-M172?iframe=ymap

J2-M172 Project shows that J2b M205>CTS1969>PH4306>Y22066 Balkan cluster have Croatian Serbs, Serbians and Bulgarians, considering that for Croatian and Bosnian Serbs exist historical data and that they migrated from somewhere excludes possibility that this Balkan cluster have origin in Croatia, since some Romanian Vlachs possible also Bulgarian are also mentioned in writing that come to Croatia possibly that this is part of that genetics, it is possible that some of these Vlachs also going towards Albania.

We need to know the Vlachs coming from all sides to Croatia and someone (Vlachs from Bulgaria, Romania) goes and to Albania, Greece etc. Not all Vlachs coming from direction of Albania, Macedonia, Greece to Croatia because the Romanians and Bulgarians are also mentioned in Croatia at least linguistically. This is and logic because it does not only Albanians escape from Turks and others fleeing.

In my opinion this is a Bulgarian conection, but as I said in the future we will know more concretely.

Dema
01-04-19, 22:49
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J2-M172?iframe=ymap

J2-M172 Project shows that J2b M205>CTS1969>PH4306>Y22066 Balkan cluster have Croatian Serbs, Serbians and Bulgarians, considering that for Croatian and Bosnian Serbs exist historical data and that they migrated from somewhere excludes possibility that this Balkan cluster have origin in Croatia, since some Romanian Vlachs possible also Bulgarian are also mentioned in writing that come to Croatia possibly that this is part of that genetics, it is possible that some of these Vlachs also going towards Albania.

Yes this is true that we have few Bulgarian, Romanian, even ethnic Croat or Muslim Bosnjak samples inside of this clade. But by my free judgment Serbs must have over 80 or 90 % of this subclade distribution. Which all again with its TMRCA 1000 years points out at Montenegrin Kriçi tribe. After slavicization they identified with Serbs because of their Orthodox religion just like big majority of Montenegrin and South Serb E-v13 did. I dont think M205>Y22059/Y22066 has anything to do with Vlachs and we cannot connect it with any Vlach group. But rather with Montenegrin native tribe of probably Illyrian origin if they were native to Montenegro and managed to expand so well. But of course going more further back in history, of probably Phoenician Semitic origin. I was considering this Vlach theory long ago but simply it does not hold water. You can read many pages back, i was considering Byzantine arrival theory from Middle East in 10 century CE, but i dropped down all these theories since with gaining more experience i realized that i was foolish.


We need to know the Vlachs coming from all sides to Croatia and someone (Vlachs from Bulgaria, Romania) goes and to Albania, Greece etc. Not all Vlachs coming from direction of Albania, Macedonia, Greece to Croatia because the Romanians and Bulgarians are also mentioned in Croatia at least linguistically. This is and logic because it does not only Albanians escape from Turks and others fleeing.

In my opinion this is a Bulgarian connection, but as I said in the future we will know more concretely.

J2-M205 is none existent in Vlachs, as i went thru Bosch et al 2006 major Vlach/Aromun study. M205 is connected with Proto-Semites, Mediterraneans, and Canaanites.

They tested Albanians, Greeks, Macedonians, Romanians from Constanta, Romanians from Ploiesti, Aromuns from Dukasi in Albania, Aromuns from Andon Poci in Albania, Aromuns from Krusevo in Macedonia, Aromuns from the Stip region in Macedonia and Aromuns from Romania.

The only two J2-M205 samples from this study were found in Albania. One at Aromun in Andon Poçi and another one at Albanian in Tirana.

We have plenty of J2-M205 in Greece, and more south but none at Aromuns/Vlachs or their groups.

Dema
10-04-19, 02:37
Regarding Croatian and Bosnian so called "Vlachs", in fact today Orthodox Serbs. There is no doubt that they were recorded as such, and that they are a bit genetically different from their Croatian, Bosnian Muslim/Catholic, Slovenian and so on neighbours, but mostly in higher percentage of E-v13 haplogroup which is regularly in these areas accompanied with J2-M205 haplogroup. I would use these two signals as most important one to differentiate them. But of course there are also other haplogroups in smaller percentage like J2b2 and R1b.


So regarding J2-M205 but probably also many clades of E-v13 like also found E-v13>Y30991, we can connect them with native Balkan people of Montenegro South Serbia population rather then with Vlachs.


Bosch et al 2006, which did a wonderful work studying Vlachs proved that they are just standard Balkan population, only a bit isolated.
They are mostly Latinised remains of Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians, Greeks with also later Slavic influence mostly noticeable in I2a-CTS10228 and R1a haplogroups.

Bachus
10-04-19, 18:48
Regarding Croatian and Bosnian so called "Vlachs", in fact today Orthodox Serbs. There is no doubt that they were recorded as such, and that they are a bit genetically different from their Croatian, Bosnian Muslim/Catholic, Slovenian and so on neighbours, but mostly in higher percentage of E-v13 haplogroup which is regularly in these areas accompanied with J2-M205 haplogroup. I would use these two signals as most important one to differentiate them. But of course there are also other haplogroups in smaller percentage like J2b2 and R1b.


So regarding J2-M205 but probably also many clades of E-v13 like also found E-v13>Y30991, we can connect them with native Balkan people of Montenegro South Serbia population rather then with Vlachs.


Bosch et al 2006, which did a wonderful work studying Vlachs proved that they are just standard Balkan population, only a bit isolated.
They are mostly Latinised remains of Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians, Greeks with also later Slavic influence mostly noticeable in I2a-CTS10228 and R1a haplogroups.

Kriči tribe are tiny minority among Serbs from Bosnia and Croatia. They joined to I2a and R1a Serbian Slavic majority, like you ancestors joined to Albanians.

Here is Dalmatian Serb y dna:
I2a-Din - 39%
I1 - 24%
E-V13 - 13%
R1a - 8%
J2b - 6%
N - 4%
J1 - 4%
R1b - 3%

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?280270-Dalmatian-serb-Y-dna

Kriči are only 6% among Dalmatian Serbs.


K15 Eurogenes of full Dalmatian Serb (I2-PH908).

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 19.04
2 Baltic 18.7
3 North_Sea 17.96
4 Eastern_Euro 12.11
5 East_Med 10.61
6 West_Med 10.37
7 West_Asian 7.21
8 Red_Sea 3.52
9 South_Asian 0.41

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance:
1 Serbian 4.26
2 Austrian 5.88
3 Croatian 6.36
4 Romanian 6.71
5 Hungarian 6.92
6 Moldavian 7.03
7 Bulgarian 9.26
8 East_German 10.65
9 South_Polish 12.58
10 Ukrainian_Lviv 12.66
11 Ukrainian 13.62
12 Polish 14.87
13 Russian_Smolensk 15.56
14 South_Dutch 15.63
15 French 16.11
16 Ukrainian_Belgorod 16.33
17 West_German 16.73
18 Southwest_Russian 16.73
19 Greek_Thessaly 16.81
20 Southwest_Finnish 16.99

You cheep propaganda is debunked!

Mich Glitch
10-04-19, 18:56
My samples from BigY (top) and Dante Labs (bottom):

https://i4.imageban.ru/out/2019/04/10/9cd2d72ce6a1524579a18687ed7b2151.jpg

Mich Glitch
10-04-19, 19:00
Dante's results are better. I've checked J-CTS1969 in YSEQ. It's negative. So, I am J-PF7321*.

I'm waiting for results from Big Y-700. And I've ordered Dante Labs Long Read test.

Bachus
10-04-19, 19:02
Krajina Serb from Banija (I2-PH908) from Dvor na Uni, K15 map and K36 map.

https://i.imgur.com/v6uFZFT.png

https://i.imgur.com/mJ4SS9v.png

He is the closest to Austrians on K15 Eurogenes and to Slovenians on K36.

More details about results of this Krajina Banija Serb are here on page 15
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?277615-Krajina-Serb-(from-Banija)-results&p=5887747&viewfull=1#post5887747

Dema
10-04-19, 19:12
My samples from BigY (top) and Dante Labs (bottom):

https://i4.imageban.ru/out/2019/04/10/9cd2d72ce6a1524579a18687ed7b2151.jpgVery good, yes i realized that this might also be your result. But i thought that its from bigY-500 to bigY-700 upgrade. Looks like Dante had better coverage and now you are confirmed PF7231*, what are your closest relatives STR wise, do you get any Ukraine closer match? Did you find these Ukraine J2b1s from public studies and compare your markes to them, they probably fall in your cluster

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Mich Glitch
10-04-19, 19:13
Here is my neighborhood by 111 Y-STR markers (my sample in red):

https://i6.imageban.ru/out/2019/04/03/0865b388915164b0400e5782475d065c.jpg