Questionning about Anatolian languages

Hello, i recently tried by myself to theorized the spread of indo-european languages of the so-called Centum group, taking linguistic, anthropologic, genetic, archeologic and cultural reconstructed or not datas that we already know.

Whatever the original Urheimat, if there is one. The diffusion pattern that seems to go with all datas is the following.

1) A language that i'm gonna call here not Proto-Indo-European but Proto-Related-Celtic emerge somewhere in Pontic Steppe or Central Europe / Balkans between 3000 BC and 2000 BC. Creating a multicultural complex that we could call Central Europe Bell Beaker although i'm not sure of the denomination. If we stop here, we have two issues. Tocharians and Anatolians. Tocharians is not so much of an issue, recent genetic studies tell us that Afanasievo ( hypothetic proto-tocharians ) and Yamnaya ( hypothetic generic proto-indo-europeans ) are almost indistinguishable and Tarim Basin Mummies tell us that their both cultural ( tartan ) and physical ( red hair, light hairs, green eyes, light eyes ) traits, found an equivalent in ancient western europe ( Tarim Mummies do not necessarily need to be Tocharians, they could have been a melting pot with tocharians, iranians [ scythians ] and indigenous people ).


2) " Explosion of the Bell-Beakers Related People " For multiple and various reasons, the central european MCC, seems to have lived a large diffusion in western europe, both north-west and south-west, creating multiple chiefdoms, certainly heavily culturaly and linguisticaly related in the beginning. Now, here we have our first problem. How mingle all the archeological and genetic datas with linguistic. It is evident that, Italic, Germanic, Celto-Iberic, Venetic, Greek are all coming from one source, but at different stage and with some linguistic innovations. Those people diffuse from central european bell-beaker 2500-2000 BC until the beginning of the Iron Age in the Alps approximately 1200-1000 BC. They where certainly all mingle and physically different from each group, the first stage linguistic continuum were certainly no longer ( even if a certain intercomprehension could occur ) and the certainly not look at each other as brothers. So we have in a almost 1500 years gap, multiple migrations that we can now trying to hypothesized.


A first 2500 BC migration from central europe to north western europe, especially in the netherlands seems to be the origin of some Q-related celtic languages but also with y-dna haplogroup R1b ( R-L21 ).

A migration at an unknown date (maybe 2000-1500 BC ) seems to have bring some other Q-related celtic language or maybe already diversified dialect and also y-dna haplogroup R1b-DF27 in the Iberian Peninsula ( this migration could also occur in the later point ).

The real demographic explosion seems to have occured somehwere between 1500 and 1000 bc both in late bronze age and early iron age in central europe. This explosion is linked with various factors. Climatic ( hypothetic santorin eruption ), Technologic ( iron age for the late stage ) and Demographic ( i'm pretty sure that central european indo-european related people, encounter a new coming people or totally reinvente himself culturally ). From there, new elits developed. First people migrate from northern alps or central germany or netherlands into danemark and later scandinavia to create the Germanic language but also brings y-dha haplogroup R1b ( R-S21 ), an other tribe going into italy, creating a Q-related Italic language, maybe ancestor of both Latin and Falisc but also Venetic ( even if venetic is not directly related with the previous ) but also Greek related people especially Dorians and maybe Bryges > Phryges > Armenians if we believe in antic authors and modern theories that makes a relation between Greek and Armenian ( even if armenian is an extremally innovative language i believe ).

And then the 1200 BC explosion. Why ? Like said but certainly for way more reasons. A new elite seems to be born in the Alps and linked with various linguistic but also y-dna haplogroups ( R-S21, R-S28 and likely others y-dna haplogroups than R [ i think J2 ] ) but one linguistic particularity emerge is the innovation that the primal consonne K becomed a P, this is likely related with an intense contact with a totally different language ( Tyrsenian Languages ??? ). Both Celtic, Italic and Greek linguistic groups have this innovation.

The patriarcal indo-european cultural pattern theorized, explain the correlation between linguistic and ethnic people.

But, in all that ( very very simplified summary ). Anatolian language has absolutely not is place. Linguistically, we found innovations that even Centum / Satem split doesn't have. The D for the term Deus ( God wich evolved in T in germanic languages wich reinvolved in D with the second consonant mutation, is an S in hittite, to become Sius instead of Dius ). The D is on the contrary a T ( Daughter, Tuwatara ) but paradoxically, the initial T, that occurs in other indo-european languages like for exemple the T in ( Tarhuntassa, related with Thor or Taranis, but also Tri meaning Three exist ).

So, Anatolian languages are very mysterious, wonder why linguists consider it as archaic languages, more than an innovative ones. Even with the hypothesis that indo-european related group migrate from balkans or caucasus to anatolia, the innovations or archaisms in anatolian languages seems to tell us 2 primordial things.

1) Proto-Anatolian language separate somehow earlier from other indo-european languages ( as we already hypothesized ).

2) His power as a vehicular language most have been very restrained in an elit, wich have been very very influenced by mesopotamian ( semitic, hurrite ) and maybe previous anatolian languages.

I found this YouTube link about spoken Hittite and i can't help myself to think that it sound like a semitic language or something very oriental.


Please dont take the thread too hard and feel free to, develop, correct or give consistency if you feel that it needs to.

Thanks for the video, There are too much "sh"

Maybe it is because of Hattians and Hattic people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattic_language


How Ottoman's rose on Byzantine and Persian culture, Hittitans rose on Hatti Culture
They were living before Hittians

The Anatolian languages can be explained according theory with tottally different aproach and results.

the Q-P change I wrote many times in many posts that exists also in Greek in a strange way in Mycenean,
as also in Celtic
but with clear domination of P after the Dorian descent, around 900 BC,

HETTIT is a language wich is no SATEM NO CENTUM, and probably not Anatolian
and I think is connected with Indo-origins, considering Greco-Aryan and Indo-Aryan
And also does not follow the grammar and the genders of IE languages,

for me it is rather Q were imported from Anatolian and P from Yamnaa IE
I am not sure for that,
but seems as a possible solution to my eyes,

I think the Q-P change came from North and East Europe Yamnaans
and not from the Anatolian,
we still have missing links in IE theories,
and the best example is that Gibutas explaines very good Central and North Europe
but not Greek and Aryan, which especially after the last Lazarides papper
seems to be rather better explained, by Renfrew Anatolian Hypothesis, or Greco-Aryan theory,
and considering the connectivity of early Latin with Mycenean this go on more West,

As for Hattian language,
nobody knows,
but seems to be either a para-Semitic language, an evolute of Elam,
either a non IE non Sem, but another Caucasian (minor Asian) language that evolute to Thyrrenian, Etruscan, (personal view)
if the ancient Scholars were correct,
as for connectivity among Minoan and Etruscan,
hm I never found such a think,

fat Sh and H is mark of indo-Iranian, Indo-Aryan languages, I think


Cowgill suggests due to so many differences that Hettit was not an IE language,
but a parallel with IE language

Boreas said:

Thanks for the video, There are too much "sh"

Maybe it is because of Hattians and Hattic people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattic_language


How Ottoman's rose on Byzantine and Persian culture, Hittitans rose on Hatti Culture
They were living before Hittians

Click to expand...

Yes, those " SH, CH " also intrigue me, i wonder if it cognate with the french CH wich was originally a K. Like Chien, Canis or Cheval, Caballus. Don't know enough about linguistic to know if innovation there is. But it also make me think about the reconstructed Proto-Indo-European Schleicher's Fable wich i think is very " anglicized " maybe, they have " semitized " hittite language.

I know this is off topic but I loved to share this

Yetos said:

The Anatolian languages can be explained according theory with tottally different aproach and results.

the Q-P change I wrote many times in many posts that exists also in Greek in a strange way in Mycenean,
as also in Celtic
but with clear domination of P after the Dorian descent, around 900 BC,

HETTIT is a language wich is no SATEM NO CENTUM, and probably not Anatolian
and I think is connected with Indo-origins, considering Greco-Aryan and Indo-Aryan
And also does not follow the grammar and the genders of IE languages,

for me it is rather Q were imported from Anatolian and P from Yamnaa IE
I am not sure for that,
but seems as a possible solution to my eyes,

I think the Q-P change came from North and East Europe Yamnaans
and not from the Anatolian,
we still have missing links in IE theories,
and the best example is that Gibutas explaines very good Central and North Europe
but not Greek and Aryan, which especially after the last Lazarides papper
seems to be rather better explained, by Renfrew Anatolian Hypothesis, or Greco-Aryan theory,
and considering the connectivity of early Latin with Mycenean this go on more West,

As for Hattian language,
nobody knows,
but seems to be either a para-Semitic language, an evolute of Elam,
either a non IE non Sem, but another Caucasian (minor Asian) language that evolute to Thyrrenian, Etruscan, (personal view)
if the ancient Scholars were correct,
as for connectivity among Minoan and Etruscan,
hm I never found such a think,

fat Sh and H is mark of indo-Iranian, Indo-Aryan languages, I think


Cowgill suggests due to so many differences that Hettit was not an IE language,
but a parallel with IE language

Click to expand...

Interesting, so your hypothesis is that the Q-Indo-Hittite from, saying, anatolia or south caucasus, becomes the P-Proto-Indo-European in pontic steppe and then a double migration occurs from both anatolia and pontic steppe or that a first migration from anatolia in every direction bring Q-related-indo-european language and a second from pontic-steppe, bringing P-related-indo-european language ? It seems very complicated see like that.

IronSide said:

I know this is off topic but I loved to share this

Click to expand...

Straight into favorite. Music and Poetry definitely have something to do with spread of languages.

halfalp said:

Interesting, so your hypothesis is that the Q-Indo-Hittite from, saying, anatolia or south caucasus, becomes the P-Proto-Indo-European in pontic steppe and then a double migration occurs from both anatolia and pontic steppe or that a first migration from anatolia in every direction bring Q-related-indo-european language and a second from pontic-steppe, bringing P-related-indo-european language ? It seems very complicated see like that.

Click to expand...

in my eyes,
Q spread from Anatolia
P from Yamnaa
Mycenean is a non Yamnaa IE language
and the horse is Ικκος. Eqqos
but in Greek is Ιππος, Εppos
probably from the NW dialects
that is the only explanation I can give

and Hettit is not an Anatolian IE language, rather a indo-iranian steppe, but entered Anatolia



BUT
the possibility that Q was due a substractum of the previous language,
see Hattian and Etruscan could be parallel languages/dialects,
is open, and CAN ALSO EXPLAIN the oposite first P->Q and second back Q->P

qw to Q in Hattian and Etruscan substractum
qw to P/Ph to not Hattian

OR
qw to Q to Anatolian
qw to P/Ph to Yamnaan

offcourse any third view always accepted,

Yetos said:

in my eyes,
Q spread from Anatolia
P from Yamnaa
Mycenean is a non Yamnaa IE language
and the horse is Ικκος. Eqqos
but in Greek is Ιππος, Εppos
probably from the NW dialects
that is the only explanation I can give

and Hettit is not an Anatolian IE language, rather a indo-iranian steppe, but entered Anatolia



BUT
the possibility that Q was due a substractum of the previous language,
see Hattian and Etruscan could be parallel languages/dialects,
is open, and CAN ALSO EXPLAIN the oposite first P->Q and second back Q->P

qw to Q in Hattian and Etruscan substractum
qw to P/Ph to not Hattian

OR
qw to Q to Anatolian
qw to P/Ph to Yamnaan

offcourse any third view always accepted,

Click to expand...

But how do you explain the K / Q Tocharian Language, from anatolia through iran > central asia > tarim basin ? For me it seems that if that road would be take, those people might have various reasons to stop way before ( mesopotamia, iran, india ) than going in poor semi-arid desert in central asia. The Steppe hypothesis has the power to explain how but especially, why ancient related people in a same area ( occidental eurasian steppe, in his far extend ) would migrate. The Anatolia Hypothesis form me is way more Conquest-related that the steppe one, because it would stipulate, people going through rich countries just for the sake of conquest.

hmm

the bow in Greek is Τοξον Τοκ+σον Toxon Tok-son
Ptolemy names them as TοΞοι And Τοχαροι Toxi Toharoi
ΣΚυθες Schytes Skoda Skodra means shooters, archers,
we know that Tocharians were raiding Hellenistic kingdoms of far East
but were named under the wider term Scythians,

now why they moved?
I do not know,

A myth says about Dionysus catabasis to India and a campaign to Steppe,
many Historians say so but mention as a myth, not a certified story.
so it is rather to the sphere of fantasy.