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Bachus
06-11-17, 16:54
https://scontent-frx5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23167995_503576813353823_9024406015234303920_n.jpg ?oh=665dbb397c1832fab410071359086b74&oe=5A6FAC54

hrvat22
06-11-17, 17:01
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/22Kangars/BesenyoGeneticsEn.htm

Bosnian Serbs have 13.6% R1a so this map is incorrect.

If you have scientific paper on which you base your map, you can freely attach it.

Bachus
06-11-17, 17:14
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/22Kangars/BesenyoGeneticsEn.htm

Bosnian Serbs have 13.6% R1a so this map is incorrect.

If you have scientific paper on which you base your map, you can freely attach it.

You are funny guy if you believe that Serbs from Bosnia have less R1a than Serbs from Serbia.

You research is not relevant because sample was small and and sample was from only few villages not from whole Bosnia where Serbs live.

You research is outdate, year 2005 was 12 years ago, a lot of Serbs was tested in period of 12 years.

Serbs from B&H have twice more R1a than Croats from B&H, deal wit it. :laughing:

hrvat22
06-11-17, 18:36
You are funny guy if you believe that Serbs from Bosnia have less R1a than Serbs from Serbia.

You research is not relevant because sample was small and and sample was from only few villages not from whole Bosnia where Serbs live.

You research is outdate, year 2005 was 12 years ago, a lot of Serbs was tested in period of 12 years.

Serbs from B&H have twice more R1a than Croats from B&H, deal wit it. :laughing:


http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1529-8817.2005.00190.x/full

Samples for the Serbs were taken from all over Bosnia and Herzegovina(where Serbs live in majority), the scientific work was done with rules prescribed by the profession and published in scientific journals.

Your data is from private portal without any scientific reference which is not proof of anything, except that in some areas exist these or those haplotypes.


Therefore my clame
Bosnian Serbs have 13.6% R1a so this map is incorrect is correct and deal wit it.

hrvat22
06-11-17, 18:39
Bachus (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/54831-Bachus)


Serbs from B&H have twice more R1a than Croats from B&H, deal wit it. :laughing:

As far as I know in Croatian area Serbs have R1a types that have Croats there, which means that these Serbs are probably Croatian origin.

Sile
06-11-17, 19:45
As far as I know in Croatian area Serbs have R1a types that have Croats there, which means that these Serbs are probably Croatian origin.

In a recent paper, there was 10% of R1a in Udine , Friuli, North East Italy in the time of pre-Roman Italy circa 700BC ...........Udine at that time was a mix of Venetic and Histri Illyrians.

so , understand that R1a was in the alps and most likely further west long before any slavs arrived

hrvat22
06-11-17, 20:06
In a recent paper, there was 10% of R1a in Udine , Friuli, North East Italy in the time of pre-Roman Italy circa 700BC ...........Udine at that time was a mix of Venetic and Histri Illyrians.

so , understand that R1a was in the alps and most likely further west long before any slavs arrived

We in Croatia have history of Serbs for about 400 years, if R1a mutations in today's Croatian Serbs are older than these 400 years everything is clear, there are Croat origin by male line and do not come to Croatia from south east Balkans.

Which Croatian R1a types are originally Croatian or Italian we'll see in the future.


In a recent paper

Which types of R1a?

Bachus
21-12-17, 19:40
We in Croatia have history of Serbs for about 400 years, if R1a mutations in today's Croatian Serbs are older than these 400 years everything is clear, there are Croat origin by male line and do not come to Croatia from south east Balkans.

Among Serbs from Lika it is more dominant M458 than Z280 (M458 is around 2/3, and Z280 is around 1/3).

Serbs from Kordun, Banija and Bosanska Krajina have more Z280 than M458.

Serbs from krajina which are R1a or any other haplogroup are not of Croatian origin, deal with it.

Bachus
29-01-18, 04:16
Y DNA of Bosnian Serbs

Sample 351

​I2 (117)​- 33,3%

R1a (88) - 25,1%

E1b (54) - 15,4%

I1 (21) - 6%

N2 (20) - 5,7%

J2b (19) - 5,4%

R1b (10) - 2,8%

J2a (10) -2,8%

J1 (7) -2%

G2a (3) - 0,9%

Q (2) - 0,6%

hrvat22
31-01-18, 21:00
Y DNA of Bosnian Serbs

Sample 351

​I2 (117)​- 33,3%

R1a (88) - 25,1%

E1b (54) - 15,4%

I1 (21) - 6%

N2 (20) - 5,7%

J2b (19) - 5,4%

R1b (10) - 2,8%

J2a (10) -2,8%

J1 (7) -2%

G2a (3) - 0,9%

Q (2) - 0,6%

This is not proof of anything, show me the latest scientific paper for Bosnian Serbs.

Bosnian Serbs have 13.6% R1a.

hrvat22
31-01-18, 21:08
Among Serbs from Lika it is more dominant M458 than Z280 (M458 is around 2/3, and Z280 is around 1/3).

Serbs from Kordun, Banija and Bosanska Krajina have more Z280 than M458.

Serbs from krajina which are R1a or any other haplogroup are not of Croatian origin, deal with it.

From where Serbs bring R1a Z280, and which specifically branches and subcladest they bring to Croatia?

R1a Z280 is old around 4500 years.

Jovialis
31-01-18, 22:33
Y DNA of Bosnian Serbs

Sample 351

​I2 (117)​- 33,3%

R1a (88) - 25,1%

E1b (54) - 15,4%

I1 (21) - 6%

N2 (20) - 5,7%

J2b (19) - 5,4%

R1b (10) - 2,8%

J2a (10) -2,8%

J1 (7) -2%

G2a (3) - 0,9%

Q (2) - 0,6%


This is not proof of anything, show me the latest scientific paper for Bosnian Serbs.

Bosnian Serbs have 13.6% R1a.

//

Please substantiate all claims with links to academic sources. It is the only way we can verify if they are correct; thus avoiding these kind of disputes.

hrvat22
31-01-18, 22:46
//

Please substantiate all claims with links to academic sources. It is the only way we can verify if they are correct; thus avoiding these kind of disputes.

Bosnian Serbs R1a 13.6%.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1529-8817.2005.00190.x/pdf

Bachus
01-02-18, 02:52
Bosnian Serbs R1a 13.6%.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1529-8817.2005.00190.x/pdf

Wrong, your source is old 7-8 years and it's based at the sample of around 50.

Here are results of 430 tested Serbs from Bosnia and Herzegovina
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CkH42U0Po_3trplZuaoFf2IUTDYQtZrt4_KDW2ZNnOs/edit#gid=1803888126

At the sample of 430 Serbs from Bosnia and Herzegovina have 103 R1a which is 24%, but Bosnian Serbs without Herzegovinian Serbs have 25,1% R1a​.

Deal with it!

Bachus
01-02-18, 03:15
At the sample of 213 (at the day March 3 2017) R1a was 33,33% (71 samples) among Serbs from Bosnia and Herzegovina, but at the sample of 430 R1a is 24% among Serbs from Bosnia and Herzegovina (25,1% among Serbs from Bosnia).

https://i.imgur.com/6qWOiVD.jpg

User hrvat22 use source which is old 7-8 years and when sample was much smaller than today.

I demand from moderators to protect me from user hrvat22, because he obvious tr.lling (source which is old 7-8 years is not relevant today because sample was much smaller).

hrvat22
01-02-18, 08:26
At the sample of 213 (at the day March 3 2017) R1a was 33,33% (71 samples) among Serbs from Bosnia and Herzegovina, but at the sample of 430 R1a is 24% among Serbs from Bosnia and Herzegovina (25,1% among Serbs from Bosnia).

https://i.imgur.com/6qWOiVD.jpg

User hrvat22 use source which is old 7-8 years and when sample was much smaller than today.

I demand from moderators to protect me from user hrvat22, because he obvious tr.lling (source which is old 7-8 years is not relevant today because sample was much smaller).


Obviously you have no proof (links to academic source) and that's why you manipulate with data from private portals.

Your data was not done with rules prescribed by the profession and published in scientific journals and therefore can not and should not serve as relevant evidence.

hrvat22
01-02-18, 08:32
Bachus (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/54831-Bachus)


From where Serbs bring R1a Z280, and which specifically branches and subclades they bring to Croatia?

R1a Z280 is old around 4500 years.

You did not answer my question so please, do it.

Jovialis
01-02-18, 16:02
@Bachus, providing a graphic or spreadsheet with no link to where it comes from is not sufficient. You will have to follow up with a link to the source of it's origin.

I will ask everyone in the thread to please show one another respect. Saying stuff like "deal with it" only serves to antagonize.

This is what eupedia has to say about R1a distribution:

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml
https://i.imgur.com/pV0bJC4.gif

hrvat22
01-02-18, 16:54
@Bachus, providing a graphic or spreadsheet with no link to where it comes from is not sufficient. You will have to follow up with a link to the source of it's origin.

I will ask everyone in the thread to please show one another respect. Saying stuff like "deal with it" only serves to antagonize.

This is what eupedia has to say about R1a distribution:

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml
https://i.imgur.com/pV0bJC4.gif

There is no link, only data which he has is from Serbian private portal. Research for Bosnian Serbs is what I quoting and that's only research we have for now.

Therefore his evidence is not relevant.

Bachus
01-02-18, 20:18
You did not answer my question so please, do it.

I'm afraid that I did not understand your question.

Do you sugest that Serbs from Croatia and Bosnia which are R1a-Z280 are of Croatian origin?

hrvat22
01-02-18, 21:08
I'm afraid that I did not understand your question.

Do you sugest that Serbs from Croatia and Bosnia which are R1a-Z280 are of Croatian origin?

You said
Serbs from Kordun, Banija and Bosanska Krajina have more Z280

but R1a Z280 is old around 4500 years, which specifically branches and subclades of the same they bring to Croatia and from where?

After you answer we will see whether these branches and subclades are autochthonous in Croatia ie. Croatian origin or they are from Serbia. For that reason your claim that



Serbs from krajina which are R1a or any other haplogroup are not of Croatian origin, deal with it. is not based on evidence and it is untrue.

Bachus
02-02-18, 00:38
You said

but R1a Z280 is old around 4500 years, which specifically branches and subclades of the same they bring to Croatia and from where?

After you answer we will see whether these branches and subclades are autochthonous in Croatia ie. Croatian origin or they are from Serbia. For that reason your claim that


is not based on evidence and it is untrue.

That is true Serbs from Bosanska Krajina and Banija have more Z280 than M458, and Serbs from Lika have more M458 than Z280.

Among Serbs from Bosanska Krajina, Lika and Banija sub-branches of Z280 are Y2613, YP237, YP4278 and Y2902, look here
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HUSlmKRESVe4eVWIB7awj72nygKQvww5LWek5M-TMns/edit#gid=1265546096

hrvat22
02-02-18, 08:18
That is true Serbs from Bosanska Krajina and Banija have more Z280 than M458, and Serbs from Lika have more M458 than Z280.

Among Serbs from Bosanska Krajina, Lika and Banija sub-branches of Z280 are Y2613, YP237, YP4278 and Y2902, look here
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HUSlmKRESVe4eVWIB7awj72nygKQvww5LWek5M-TMns/edit#gid=1265546096

Ok, for now we do not know from where and when this sub-branches come to Croatia, for that reason your clame
Serbs from krajina which are R1a or any other haplogroup are not of Croatian origin, deal with it. is not true. This does not mean that in the future it will not be true, this is for now.

However only on the basis of these sub-branches Y2613, YP237 and Y2902 we can assume that people with these sub-branches do not come from Serbia or with Serbs to Croatia because in Serbia prevail other sub-branches of R1a.

There is also this proof from Eupedia
Serbian R1a belongs for the most part to a young clade of CTS1211 (Y33>CTS8816>Y3300>Y5647>YP611>YP3987>YP3992 subclade; TMRCA 950 years), with a minority of older M458 (CTS11962>L1029 subclade; TMRCA 2200 years) and Z92 (Y4459>YP617 subclade; TMRCA 3400 years). Croatian R1a falls almost exclusively within CTS1211, but to another clade (Y35>CTS3402>Y2613>Y2608 subclade, TMRCA 1950 years), with a small minority of YP340>P278.2 (TMRCA 2100 years).

as well and evidence from a public database. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a?iframe=ymap

If at this moment your statement was true then and all Croatians with these sub-branches Y2613, YP237 and Y2902 are Serbian origin and that is not possible because Croats do not come from Serbia to Balkans. Unless you have other information from where this sub-branches Y2613, YP237 and Y2902 in Croatian Serbians come to Croatia or where descendants of his ancestors are in Serbia.

Bachus
02-02-18, 08:46
However only on the basis of these sub-branches Y2613, YP237 and Y2902 we can assume that people with these sub-branches do not come from Serbia or with Serbs to Croatia because in Serbia prevail other sub-branches of R1a.

Evidence that sub-branches Y2613, YP23 abd Y2902 does not exist in Serbia, please?

hrvat22
02-02-18, 09:06
Evidence that sub-branches Y2613, YP23 abd Y2902 does not exist in Serbia, please?Today's Serbs have been populated and from Lika, Dalmata etc., it is possible and that these branches also came with Slavs to the wider Balkan area but supposedly Serbs are coming to Croatia before 300, 200 years and this sub-branches Y2613, YP237 and Y2902 must exist at a higher percentage in Serbia if that migration is true. However in any case descendants of ancestors of peoples (Croatian Serbians) with sub-branches Y2613, YP237 and Y2902 must exist in Serbia, where are they?

Bachus
02-02-18, 09:55
Today's Serbs have been populated and from Lika, Dalmata etc., it is possible and that these branches also came with Slavs to the wider Balkan area but supposedly Serbs are coming to Croatia before 300, 200 years and this sub-branches Y2613, YP237 and Y2902 must exist at a higher percentage in Serbia if that migration is true. However in any case descendants of ancestors of peoples (Croatian Serbians) with sub-branches Y2613, YP237 and Y2902 must exist in Serbia, where are they?Present day Serbia is not same as Serbia in the middle age, borders of present day Serbia were created by Josip Broz Tito in year 1945.
Vast majority of Serbs from Croatia originated from eastern Herzegovina (part of Serbia in the middle age).
Among Herzegovinian Serbs of total R1a most dominant is Z280, which means that Serbs from present day Croatia which are R1a-Z280 came from eastern Herzegovina.

hrvat22
02-02-18, 10:39
Present day Serbia is not same as Serbia in the middle age, borders of present day Serbia were created by Josip Broz Tito in year 1945.
Vast majority of Serbs from Croatia originated from eastern Herzegovina (part of Serbia in the middle age).
Among Herzegovinian Serbs of total R1a most dominant is Z280, which means that Serbs from present day Croatia which are R1a-Z280 came from eastern Herzegovina.

Then all the Croats with R1a-Z280 come from eastern Herzegovina. R1a Z280 is old around 4500 years then all Slavs with that subclade are coming from eastern Herzegovina.

I'm asking you
descendants of ancestors of peoples (Croatian Serbians) with sub-branches Y2613, YP237 and Y2902 must exist in Serbia, where are they?

As far as eastern Herzegovina is concerned Croats are mentioned there, where are this Croats today?