Agate seal found in Griffin Warrior's tomb

Angela

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I agree with the authors of the article. The artistry in this probably Minoan produced carving equals the work of the great Renaissance masters.

See:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/...-warrior-archaeology-homer.html?smid=tw-share

"The seal stone’s image, a striking depiction of one warrior in battle with two others, is carved in remarkably fine detail, with some features that are barely visible to the naked eye. The image is easier to appreciate in a large-scale drawing of the original. “The detail is astonishing, especially given the size. Aesthetically, it’s a masterpiece of miniature art,” said John Bennet, director of the British School at Athens, an archaeological institute. “The stunning combat scene on the seal stone, one of the greatest masterpieces of Aegean art, bears comparison with some of the drawings in the Michelangelo show now at the Metropolitan Museum of Art,” said Malcolm H. Wiener, an expert on Aegean prehistory and a trustee emeritus of the Met."

"The seal stone presents two mysteries. One is how and why it was engraved in such detail. The other is whether its battle scene, strongly evocative of those in Homer’s “Iliad” and “Odyssey,” depicts an event that contributed to the oral tradition behind the works of Homer.The seal stone’s owner, known as the Griffin Warrior after the mythical animal depicted in his grave, was buried around 1450 B.C. He lived at a critical period when the Minoan civilization of Crete was being transferred to cities of the Greek mainland.
Local chieftains, as the Griffin Warrior may have been, used precious items from Crete to advertise their membership in the Greek-speaking elite of the incipient Mycenaean civilization, the first on mainland Europe. Their descendants, a century or so later, built the great palaces at Pylos, Mycenae and Tiryns, places mentioned by Homer.
Dr. Davis and Dr. Stocker believe that the seal stone, like other objects in the Griffin Warrior’s grave, was made on Crete. Work of such quality was not being produced anywhere on the Greek mainland at the time. The detail is so fine that it seems the engraver would have needed a magnifying glass, as would admirers of his work.
Yet no magnifying implements have been found on Crete from this era. Perhaps the engraver was nearsighted, the two archaeologists suggest."

"The seal, carved on a hard stone known as agate, shows a victorious hero slaying an adversary while a third warrior lies dead in the foreground. The seal stone is mounted so that it can worn on the wrist, and indeed the hero is wearing just such an item, as if it were a wristwatch.

The two defeated warriors seem to belong to the same group, because both are wearing patterned kilts whereas the hero sports a codpiece. The scene evidently represents some event that would have been familiar to the Minoans who made the seal stone and to the Griffin Warrior’s community."

"“We’re not saying this is a representation from Homer,” Dr. Stocker said of the tableau on the seal stone, while admitting it would be “fun to believe” the hero is Achilles. Rather, the image “is part of a cycle of stories familiar to both Mycenaeans and Minoans.”"


35-archaeologis.jpg


36-archaeologis.jpg


We've discussed him and the tomb before:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-of-southern-Greece?highlight=Griffin+warrior
 
.

What boost our heartbeats? -The gold or the "old"..;


griffinwarrior26.jpg



an amazing necklace and details


griffinwarrior31.jpg



from http://www.griffinwarrior.org/griffinwarrior-burial.html


By the way -Griffin- seems to be the "heartbreaker of the Aegean"... A Bronze Age playboy;
such fine jewellery and luxury for a man, a Bronze age warrior, testing well our perceptions for their life...
The bronze mirror..?
Are presents of his "amore" summertimes; or it is just items of a seafaring looting industry (piracy)? Maybe -his-
proposal about fashion?


Centuries after we learned that hardtrained Spartans well grooming their selves before their "last supper"... to Hell.
Pretty (&) intriguing !

(for Agate stone)
I am amazed from the "move", such delicate and free from norms performance. (remember the sword with the lion hunters) All these "character" will retard and deployed again centuries later
in a more structured frame intaligence of the Classics. Check for example the perspective of the Homeric Hero and the 5th century Iron Age Hoplite which have to stay in... Line at battle in contrast with the bronze age hero who is motivate from his mania.
 
Jawdropping. The sword and scabbards seem like we should be able to match them to a culture.

The Victor looks like those minoan noble paintings Angela previously posted.
 
The more I look at it, the more amazing I find it. It's an extraordinary artistic and artisanal accomplishment.

If you look carefully the victorious warrior seems to be wearing a seal himself.

@I1a3 Young,
I didn't think of it before, but he does look like the Minoan warriors; that broad-shouldered yet small waisted, lean and graceful build is exactly the same.
960faab8ba43b586abe2dd92ad91b9e0.jpg


Minoan boxing figures:
7a9fe5e0582ac1397d622424025d42c0.jpg


The shield doesn't look familiar to me, but the helmut looks more Mycenaean than anything else.
394fc63a96cf2214ee6182bd0f4e1016--trojan-war-greek-history.jpg


Maybe the scholar who suggested it might be an earlier representation of Hector might be right? Would a Mycenaean lord want such a depiction, however?

As for him being a dandy, that would be appropriate I think. Ancient Greek warriors oiled and perfumed their long hair didn't they?

They all seem to already have the "classical" profile too.
 
The shield doesn't look familiar to me, but the helmut looks more Mycenaean than anything else.
It looks to me and I say maybe is those "eight figure" sheilds, at horizontal position while the warrior falls defeated.I speculate that the artist wish not to spend "more space" for the shield, which allready occupies a lot.Maybe.
 
that dirt, that 'stone'

o-THE-PYLOS-COMBAT-AGATE-570.jpg


contained the beauty, !!!!!!


A Mycenean 8 style shield

reconstructed-mycenaean-fresco-of-a-figure-of-eight-shield.jpg
 
Great comments guys.

The grave goods seem to suggest that this guy was something of a prince and or a great hero warrior.

I notice the guy in the grave has the sword of the 1st slain warrior on the floor.
Why would you create a work of art to show you losing or getting killed.
Maybe he survived it and escaped ? Like troy and the founding of rome or Britain.

Somebody mentioned hector i was thinking along these lines aswell and thought the
winner on the Stone Minoan/Greek looks like achilles, even the downward thrust in his
opponents neck looks like the scene from the movie with brad pit lol.

Im waiting for more on the so called exotic stuff, Amber and beads, The gold leaf on his
sword. The results of were they came from should be a few weeks away no ?
 
10 post :)

I havent looked into it but could this maybe point to a major battle goin on before 1450bc ?
Why does everything seem to lead to Egypt - pharoahs - Hyksos - Akenaten - and the Zodiac.
bull worship to the ram and the destruction of temples. its all the same stuff over and over.
All roads lead to Egypt. A family that must have produced maybe 10s of thousands of children.
it would be silly to think some didnt make it to europe or Back to europe ?
 
Legend

The following summary of the Trojan War follows the order of events as given in Proclus' summary, along with the Iliad, Odyssey, and Aeneid, supplemented with details drawn from other authors.
Origins of the war

Plan of Zeus

According to Greek mythology, Zeus had become king of the gods by overthrowing his father Cronus; Cronus in turn had overthrown his father Uranus. Zeus was not faithful to his wife and sister Hera, and had many relationships from which many children were born. Since Zeus believed that there were too many people populating the earth, he envisioned Momus[9] or Themis,[10] who was to use the Trojan War as a means to depopulate the Earth, especially of his demigod descendants.[11]
These can be supported by Hesiod's account:
"Now all the gods were divided through strife; for at that very time Zeus who thunders on high was meditating marvelous deeds, even to mingle storm and tempest over the boundless earth, and already he was hastening to make an utter end of the race of mortal men, declaring that he would destroy the lives of the demi-gods, that the children of the gods should not mate with wretched mortals, seeing their fate with their own eyes; but that the blessed gods henceforth even as aforetime should have their living and their habitations apart from men. But on those who were born of immortals and of mankind verily Zeus laid toil and sorrow upon sorrow."[12]

Zeus was a pharoah and a hyksos one at that.


 
Legend

The following summary of the Trojan War follows the order of events as given in Proclus' summary, along with the Iliad, Odyssey, and Aeneid, supplemented with details drawn from other authors.
Origins of the war

Plan of Zeus

According to Greek mythology, Zeus had become king of the gods by overthrowing his father Cronus; Cronus in turn had overthrown his father Uranus. Zeus was not faithful to his wife and sister Hera, and had many relationships from which many children were born. Since Zeus believed that there were too many people populating the earth, he envisioned Momus[9] or Themis,[10] who was to use the Trojan War as a means to depopulate the Earth, especially of his demigod descendants.[11]
These can be supported by Hesiod's account:
"Now all the gods were divided through strife; for at that very time Zeus who thunders on high was meditating marvelous deeds, even to mingle storm and tempest over the boundless earth, and already he was hastening to make an utter end of the race of mortal men, declaring that he would destroy the lives of the demi-gods, that the children of the gods should not mate with wretched mortals, seeing their fate with their own eyes; but that the blessed gods henceforth even as aforetime should have their living and their habitations apart from men. But on those who were born of immortals and of mankind verily Zeus laid toil and sorrow upon sorrow."[12]

Zeus was a pharoah and a hyksos one at that.



I'm sorry, but this is the kind of wild comment which has no basis whatsoever in history or genetics. The pantheon of Greek gods was very similar to that of the Romans, and derives from an Indo-European centered view of the cosmos. It is quite different from anything Egyptian, although because of contact with the farmers whom they encountered the Greek speakers did adopt other elements into their religion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion

It's true, of course, that the Egyptians had a great influence on the civilization of Crete, but that is to be expected as there were extensive trade contacts spanning hundreds of years. That is what happens: trade sparks cultural exchange.


The title of this Scientific American article is wrong, but the findings in the body of the paper are correct and have been confirmed by subsequent papers, most particularly the Lazaridis paper on the Mycenaeans and Minoans, which I encourage you to read. Crete was one of the first areas settled by Neolithic farmers coming from the area of present day Turkey and northern Syria. It was not settled by Egypt, although Egypt was also settled by farmers from the Near East.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/minoan-civilization-origin-europe-not-egypt/

The carving may represent a scene from the Trojan War, as it was part of the oral tradition in the Aegean long before Homer wrote about it. However, if the victor is indeed standing over someone carrying a Mycenaean shield of the "8" type, then he couldn't be Achilles or any other Mycenaean who is the victor. He would have to represent Hector or some other Trojan. I emphasize the "if" in that comment. One could wonder if a Mycenaean lord such as the Griffin Warrior would want a carving of a Trojan defeating a Mycenaean, although Hector was greatly respected. If that's the case, the Cretans may have portrayed Hector as much like themselves, for whatever reason, although it's natural for people to represent heroes in their own likeness.

There's another very important fact to consider, and that's the dating. As the link to the thread about the Griffin Warrior shows, the tomb is dated to around 1500 BC.The date a lot of people accept for the Trojan War is in the 12th century BC, because at that level there is evidence of a great fire at Troy, so that would be out of joint with any theory that this represents the Trojan War.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-of-southern-Greece?highlight=Griffin+warrior

The Trojan War was probably actually about economics, land, and trade, like most wars. Troy, because of its strategic position, controlled the trade from the Aegean into the Black Sea. That's what made it wealthy. The Mycenaean Greeks wanted to expand their territory. A story about an abducted queen is much more romantic, and poets love romance. This is an object lesson in not taking the ancient authors too literally. :)
 
Hi @o Neil, There is no relation with Hector, Achilles, and Troy in general. The post about Gods and Egypt is an other issue and I will not expand at the moment cause is irrelevant
The grave of the Griffin Warrior dated if I remember well, about to 1450 BCE so probably is earlier from the Trojan War; -if that war, ever was or we like to name that, as it was- and also earlier from the siege; of Pylos itself.
Actually, the author of the atricle well mention about all that. His point is that the image is describing a heroic ethos simillar of the men of bronze Age.

The hero is almost unprotected without armour; against his enemy... alone with his sword only and -"as usually when he is on nervous"-, cleared all of his enemy and made it a story to say it today... Very typical common trend -among the elites- of that time. That I suspect, and all that is at the field of the post-proscesual Archaelogy. See at my previous post not to repeat myself further -as usually- in short terms.


I speculate also that the Victor is Minoan as the seal itself. The defeated warrior are not so "elite" like the minoan attacker,
they have the same cloth which -probably showing us that they are soldiers;- is different from the minoan hero, and enough different from other mycenean cloth as I have seen.
The hair style are different, the minoan is very characteristic.
The helmet and the swords I believe is not an issue. The interaction beetween communities from early Bronze Age should lead them to some common trends to arm fashion; I also suspect allthough that the story of the shields always had more local heredity.


Anyway, how this seal ended to Griffin's tomb and who is depicted is on debate... "Sorry Griffin but maybe that seal is not yours...", but then why is it into his tomb. -Is it a seal of an Anax? That is field of prosecual Archaelogy


(The eight figure shield)
It was big ~1.30-1.50cm; So if it was in vertical position as should be then will almost fully covered the slaughtered warrior... unfortunatelly he kneeling after the shock and release his ability to properly defend himself.
It was deep the cupolla; the arch; the dome; and once somewhere I read that it was the strategic advantage to avoid the the -possibly- thrusting trough opponent strikes. We can see the size of it profile at the depicted Agate seal.(*)
I have also strong belief that leather was from male; goat and not from a bull, the colouring print on them is very indicative that probably came from one animal the external side.
Tear off the skin. Stretch it and lay it down, remove part of the skin of the legs and from thesoft skin of the belly Left and right (Λάπα) and you have the first material for an abstract pre mattured, eight sheild figure.

Aίγα=Goat
Αιγίς=Shield


Yiassou @Yetos
Thanks for the photo. (I didn't had time...yesterday)


(*) I find amazing that we have see the backs of the depicted warriors, which I cannot recall any image or any other simillar of that age and region and at any culture as -I at least-,I have ever seen or remember.
Such free move with so many directions still amazes me. Allthough the Victor have an egyptian breeze at his pattern poze, which is not strange cause cultural interaction of that time, as I mentioned above, but that is field of History of Art as well among other approaches.


We have all the ingredients -to say the approaches- on the table but to define them and create Food is an other thing.


Happy to be here.
 
The tools of the artist, the alloy, the blend of metals and their shape would be interested to know...
He must had different tools for every other stone, hard, medium, soft .etc
 
One of the Mycenaean lord's rings:
methode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2Ff73bc226-8c97-11e6-aa51-f33df6df2868.jpg


Another one...
ASCA_ARXAIOLOGIKO_Fig.-20.-SN24-702.-Top.-DSC_4365-reduced.jpg


They both look as if they were produced in Crete.

Another sword:
janfeb2017_l01_greekwarrior-wr.jpg


There were 150 seals within the tomb, of which this is one. Extraordinary workmanship and artistry in this one too:
22575201329_988bb831e4.jpg


burial14-V.jpeg


This is an engraved ivory plaque with a griffin, but I've yet to see a representation of the one found in the Mycenaean lord's tomb and which gave him his appellation. This one is from the Near East, but I assume the Greek one would be similar.
b30ad3cee47636483b73f526f44f83e8--ancient-mesopotamia-phoenician.jpg
 
It truly is amazing that they were able to produce this type of craftsmanship. I think its also interesting that they perhaps utilized nearsightedness as a means to create the detailed jewel. What a way to turn a negative trait, to your advantage; pretty ingenious.
 
All fair comments
I got carried away and was thinking aloud. lol
Great images guys, im truly amazed with this
Griffin dude. Well more so his artist, Were was
his workshop and how far did his materials come
from ? Ivory, amber, gold and silver. Bronze and
the agates, its an interesting mix but could it tell us
in which direction the warrior came from ? Maybe.
I dont buy troy in turkey as far as i know theres nothing
that links it to turkey and there wasnt a great deal going
on in Greece either if you move the date back to 1500bc.
allso i think it was more like a world war 1 then a little
tiff on the beach in turkey.
Place names often get called a name from were people have
come from. So i believe thats why the confusion and the moving
of the date to fit the place.
Climate change and sea level never gets a mention either historians
are not geologist. they just leave out the fact the bronze age coast is
under about 50 feet of water.
Thats my opinion at this stage anyway but were not likely to find
out anytime soon :)


the sea level stabilised around 7 ka
that is before the bronze age
 
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I'm starting to wonder if it's not actually a sheild, and rather a cloak. In the gem, it sort of looks like it has folds in the middle. Also, looking at the head of the person getting stabbed, it's to his back somewhat. Just a thought.
 
It says it's a stone, so I doubt it was a cloak.
 
Huh, stone??? I know it's a jewl, I'm talking about illustration on it.

jQBE3TM.jpg


I think its a cloak like the Mycenaeans wore; look at the folds in the middle, it's not as clear in the illustration.

Oh right, sorry about that. I see your point
 
I'm starting to wonder if it's not actually a sheild, and rather a cloak. In the gem, it sort of looks like it has folds in the middle. Also, looking at the head of the person getting stabbed, it's to his back somewhat. Just a thought.


8 shield in horizontal position.
8 shield was not a flat shield,
in the middle axis (vertical) there was either a multi wooden fiber stick,
either a stick of metal,

shield8b.jpg


mycenaean-soldier_figure%2B8%2Bshield_ivory%2Bplaque_c.%2B1300%2BBC_%2BArchaeological%2BMuseum_Delos.jpeg

usually according class,
8 shield for low class was made by wooden strings, combined by a ' tailor'
and above they cover it with fleece or skin, a tanner work,
the 2 centers were tied by a vertical axis
8 shield of higher class used mettalic components to be more strong, and even a golden leaf covering the skin
but made it heavier

8 shield when you walk by your side
could cover most of body and since no flat reached and covered even the neck.


@ Angela
Here is a Greek Griffin
his name is ΓΡΥΠΑΣ
a Mycenean one

cf87cf81cf85cf83cf8ccf82-cf83cf86cf81ceb1ceb3ceb9cf83cf84ceb9cebacf8ccf82-ceb4ceb1cebacf84cf8dcebbceb9cebfcf82.jpg



A minoan Γρυπας from knossos Crete

250px-Knossos_fresco_in_throne_palace.JPG


the Αβδηρα Γρυπας (democritos homeland)

ABDERA%2C_Tetradrachm_473%E2%80%93448_BC.jpg



and here is Makedonian Sphinx and Grypas

image003.jpg
 

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