I was mistaken: the steppe warriors rode sirens

berun

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It seems the case after finding some steppe DNA in El Argar culture (southeastern Spain):

Researchers at the Autonomous University of Barcelona work with this theory in the absence of geneticists to complete the study of DNA
l. or. 18.11.2017 | 04:00

The key to the genetic origin of the Spaniards could be Murcia. And it is that the Argaric archaeological sites of La Bastida, located in Totana, and that of La Almoloya, of Pliego, `could have given rise to all the natives of our country.

Researchers from the Autonomous University of Barcelona who work in the fields contemplate it and assure that it is about to be confirmed by the geneticists who analyze the nuclear DNA samples from both sites, as reported by the Ser de Murcia chain on its website.

In the Almoloya, within the framework of the Argar culture, in the Bronze Age, the miscegenation that constitutes the current genetic basis of the entire population of the Iberian Peninsula, according to the researchers, took place.

According to the team of the Autonomous University of Barcelona, ​​the men who came from outside came from the south of present-day Russia. The change was not only genetic, because everything points, according to archaeological research, to the importance of women in that society of the Argar culture was much more socially and politically relevant than it was after.

The archaeologists of the Autonomous University of Barcelona (UAB) who have been digging up the secrets of the archaeological site of La Bastida (Totana) for nine years, the largest in Europe of the Argaric culture and known as 'La Troya de Occidente', are considering abandoning their work for lack of economic support by the regional government of Murcia. La Bastida was a walled city of about a thousand inhabitants, the largest of that time in Western Europe, which has only been excavated by 10 percent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Argar

the culture has some "Aegean" cultural relations, and by such epoch it's not known any continental migration towards the penninsula; and as we know now Portuguese R1b of the Bronze Age and Catalan R1b Bell Beakers had not steppe DNA, so... only sirens can explain the case!
:)

not kidding now: what about Mycaenians? Minoans?
 
it seems to me that the El Argar culture originated in La Bastida, and that the founders of La Bastida came from elsewhere
they seem to have brought the bronze age to Iberia

it would be very interesting to have the DNA of these folks and to compare it with other anciant Iberian DNA and to try and find out where their DNA came from

guesswork without the DNA is rather pointless
 
well, if genetists say that the male outsiders came from south Russia must be because they have found R1a or R1b or CHG or CHG+EHG signals... but of course it is worth to wait the paper as many times conclusions are delivered taking proofs with no care at all.
 
well, if genetists say that the male outsiders came from south Russia must be because they have found R1a or R1b or CHG or CHG+EHG signals... but of course it is worth to wait the paper as many times conclusions are delivered taking proofs with no care at all.

more precisely, it should be R1b-M269 as they claim
'In the Almoloya, within the framework of the Argar culture, in the Bronze Age, the miscegenation that constitutes the current genetic basis of the entire population of the Iberian Peninsula, according to the researchers, took place.'
 
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Wow, look at it. More indications of Steppe arrival in Iberia. You world is crumbling down fast. I wonder, if one day you will have a courage to admit you were wrong, or you just going to vanish in shame?
 
This is a little strange.

I don't know what the y will show, but the big, recent study on ancient mtDna that just came out says the opposite. It says that:

"Around 2200 BCE, the emergence of El Argar groups was evidently preceded by a break in Chalcolithic cultural traditions in southeast Iberia. Yet there are no apparent new influences or signals of substantial population change on the mtDNA haplogroup level at this time, so that the observed changes may either be due to an upheaval of existing social structures or an influx of groups that cannot be distinguished from the local population at the present level of genetic resolution, e.g., from southeastern Europe, as previously proposed for El Argar. Unraveling these apparently contradictory data will certainly require further in depth analyses both on the archaeological and the archaeogenetic level."

See: Anna Szecsenyi-Nagy, Christina Roth, Brandt Guido, Wolfgang Haak, Kurt W. AltThe maternal genetic make-up of the Iberian Peninsula between the Neolithic and the Early Bronze Age

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/02/10/106963

Plus, the eastern part of Spain still spoke Iberian languages when the Romans arrived. The Celtic "Indo-European" steppe languages are on the other side of Iberia, the western side, which would make sense with an arrival from central Europe, probably France.

400px-Iberia_300BC-en.svg.png
 
It seems the case after finding some steppe DNA in El Argar culture (southeastern Spain):



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Argar

the culture has some "Aegean" cultural relations, and by such epoch it's not known any continental migration towards the penninsula; and as we know now Portuguese R1b of the Bronze Age and Catalan R1b Bell Beakers had not steppe DNA, so... only sirens can explain the case!
:)

not kidding now: what about Mycaenians? Minoans?

The Portugese R1b do show a shift to the steppe as some third parties like Davidski have shown, even though it is considerably smaller than central Europe. This is because the mithochondrial pool stayed largely the same, and we have an influx of males who took local mates. I'm not sure what is difficult to understand about that. Mycenae show a similar shift. Perhaps these were the same men?

Even today, a huge component of continental Europeans show plenty of admixture from EEF. Even the central European Bell Beaker graves demonstrate this. If you proxy these as hypothetical ancestors, and then combine it with local admixture with females in Spain and other regions of southern Europe, you will have considerably less steppe ancestry.

R1b-M269 hasn't turned up in any Neolithic graves nor anything before that. What exactly is up for debate here?
 
Wow, look at it. More indications of Steppe arrival in Iberia. You world is crumbling down fast. I wonder, if one day you will have a courage to admit you were wrong, or you just going to vanish in shame?
well, what to say?

View attachment 9454
 
http://dienekes.blogspot.be/2012/09/la-bastida-bronze-age-iberian-fortified.html
La Bastida was built 4 ka on a hill. There was a 200-year farmers village on this hill which was destroyed and burned down prior to the construction of La Bastida.
La Bastida brought many new elements that were not known in Iberia prior to 4 ka : bronze metallurgy, the La Bastida fortifications architecture reminiscent of the Levant and Troj and burials in jars.
It looks like they were not so friendly intruders from outside Iberia.
From here bronze metallurgy spread over Iberia.
 
http://dienekes.blogspot.be/2012/09/la-bastida-bronze-age-iberian-fortified.html
La Bastida was built 4 ka on a hill. There was a 200-year farmers village on this hill which was destroyed and burned down prior to the construction of La Bastida.
La Bastida brought many new elements that were not known in Iberia prior to 4 ka : bronze metallurgy, the La Bastida fortifications architecture reminiscent of the Levant and Troj and burials in jars.
It looks like they were not so friendly intruders from outside Iberia.

Indeed, but it would have been a male mediated change given the results of the large ancient mtDna study. Where those males might have been from is another issue. I always favored either southeastern Europe and perhaps more specifically the Aegean for the El Argar culture, given the cultural signs and that this was a sea borne migration. I also thought that might have been the entry point for J2 lineages into Iberia. I guess we'll see.

Of course, that doesn't mean there weren't those migrations of Indo-European speakers from Central Europe, because there were. I have always thought that was a western Iberian thing more than an eastern European thing, and that it came from Central Europe, especially given the language distribution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Argar#Related_cultures


Iberia_Bronze.gif
 
in the audio the archaelogists explain what are getting geneticists..... they tested mtDNA and nuclear DNA, females were local EEF and males no, being surely outsiders from South Russia, akin to those in Balkans, Ireland and Portugal. The admixture of such females and males provided the actual gene pool in Spain.
And true, it's kinda strange to change your kurgan for a big jar or a cist below the floor of your home.
 
Awesome!


But of course in Murcia part of "the bastida" (which is the most impressive found so far, with only 10% excavated) there are many Argar archaeological sites without investigating, given the evidence would be necessary an investigation no longer with funds of the autonomous community, but with State and even European funds.

I do not want to anticipate, but could it be the majority of the haplogroups Y R1B and mitochondrial H1 and a steppe mix of 25% after combining invaders and premises?



I think 25% is little, taking into account that it is supposed to be the origin of genetic pull in the Iberian peninsula, I would bet for 35% steppe.
 
It might have been the first IE wave that reached Iberia, but not necessarily closely related with later Celts. We should jump into big conclusions yet.
 
So the Indo Europeans relied on deadly Greek mermaids with beautiful, sailor attracting voices to get them to Iberia? ;)
 
To me it's necessary to look at rough data, Minoans and pre-Mycaenians had a late CHG component, if it spread in SE Spain through colonies looking for ores, such signal could be taken as steppe-like, but far to be truly so.
 
in the audio the archaelogists explain what are getting geneticists..... they tested mtDNA and nuclear DNA, females were local EEF and males no, being surely outsiders from South Russia, akin to those in Balkans, Ireland and Portugal. The admixture of such females and males provided the actual gene pool in Spain.
And true, it's kinda strange to change your kurgan for a big jar or a cist below the floor of your home.

it seems IE entered Europe via many different routes, but only a few of them expanded inside Europe and replaced many others

the time frame seems to be right, 4 ka is the time the expanding Sintashta and Srubnaya was replacing the Yamna and Catacomb folks on the steppe
 
the time is that involving the occupation of Greece by the IE proto-Mycaenians, and that could trigger the migration of locals as refugees in colonies afar, if the Argar language was IE or Pelasgian it will depend if the admixture included some EHG, if done with CHG alone it would not be IE, but it could mimic an steppe admixture if found together with the high WHG component of Chalco Iberia.
 
the time is that involving the occupation of Greece by the IE proto-Mycaenians, and that could trigger the migration of locals as refugees in colonies afar, if the Argar language was IE or Pelasgian it will depend if the admixture included some EHG, if done with CHG alone it would not be IE, but it could mimic an steppe admixture if found together with the high WHG component of Chalco Iberia.
My admixtures calculation was showing that the first IE could have arrived to Iberia via Balkans (Hungarian Bronze Age), and not from North West Europe. Lets wait and see. Soon everything will be revealed.
 
By now I prefer to rely on archaeology: the first continental spreads are the Atlantic Bronze (from West France?) providing Lusitanian and Galaican (??), and Urnfield (S Germany - Austria) providing Celtiberian. By the way as far as I know there is no proof about any IE language in SW Spain prior to the Roman rule.
 

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