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berun
20-11-17, 16:05
It seems the case after finding (http://www.laopiniondemurcia.es/municipios/2017/11/17/investigadores-universidad-autonoma-barcelona/876009.html)some steppe DNA in El Argar culture (southeastern Spain):


Researchers at the Autonomous University of Barcelona work with this theory in the absence of geneticists to complete the study of DNA
l. or. 18.11.2017 | 04:00

The key to the genetic origin of the Spaniards could be Murcia. And it is that the Argaric archaeological sites of La Bastida, located in Totana, and that of La Almoloya, of Pliego, `could have given rise to all the natives of our country.

Researchers from the Autonomous University of Barcelona who work in the fields contemplate it and assure that it is about to be confirmed by the geneticists who analyze the nuclear DNA samples from both sites, as reported by the Ser de Murcia chain on its website.

In the Almoloya, within the framework of the Argar culture, in the Bronze Age, the miscegenation that constitutes the current genetic basis of the entire population of the Iberian Peninsula, according to the researchers, took place.

According to the team of the Autonomous University of Barcelona, ​​the men who came from outside came from the south of present-day Russia. The change was not only genetic, because everything points, according to archaeological research, to the importance of women in that society of the Argar culture was much more socially and politically relevant than it was after.

The archaeologists of the Autonomous University of Barcelona (UAB) who have been digging up the secrets of the archaeological site of La Bastida (Totana) for nine years, the largest in Europe of the Argaric culture and known as 'La Troya de Occidente', are considering abandoning their work for lack of economic support by the regional government of Murcia. La Bastida was a walled city of about a thousand inhabitants, the largest of that time in Western Europe, which has only been excavated by 10 percent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Argar

the culture has some "Aegean" cultural relations, and by such epoch it's not known any continental migration towards the penninsula; and as we know now Portuguese R1b of the Bronze Age and Catalan R1b Bell Beakers had not steppe DNA, so... only sirens can explain the case!
:)

not kidding now: what about Mycaenians? Minoans?

bicicleur
20-11-17, 16:22
it seems to me that the El Argar culture originated in La Bastida, and that the founders of La Bastida came from elsewhere
they seem to have brought the bronze age to Iberia

it would be very interesting to have the DNA of these folks and to compare it with other anciant Iberian DNA and to try and find out where their DNA came from

guesswork without the DNA is rather pointless

berun
20-11-17, 17:26
well, if genetists say that the male outsiders came from south Russia must be because they have found R1a or R1b or CHG or CHG+EHG signals... but of course it is worth to wait the paper as many times conclusions are delivered taking proofs with no care at all.

bicicleur
20-11-17, 17:51
well, if genetists say that the male outsiders came from south Russia must be because they have found R1a or R1b or CHG or CHG+EHG signals... but of course it is worth to wait the paper as many times conclusions are delivered taking proofs with no care at all.

more precisely, it should be R1b-M269 as they claim
'In the Almoloya, within the framework of the Argar culture, in the Bronze Age, the miscegenation that constitutes the current genetic basis of the entire population of the Iberian Peninsula, according to the researchers, took place.'

berun
20-11-17, 18:03
deleted post

LeBrok
20-11-17, 19:31
deleted postWow, look at it. More indications of Steppe arrival in Iberia. You world is crumbling down fast. I wonder, if one day you will have a courage to admit you were wrong, or you just going to vanish in shame?

Angela
20-11-17, 20:56
This is a little strange.

I don't know what the y will show, but the big, recent study on ancient mtDna that just came out says the opposite. It says that:

"Around 2200 BCE, the emergence of El Argar groups was evidently preceded by a break in Chalcolithic cultural traditions in southeast Iberia. Yet there are no apparent new influences or signals of substantial population change on the mtDNA haplogroup level at this time, so that the observed changes may either be due to an upheaval of existing social structures or an influx of groups that cannot be distinguished from the local population at the present level of genetic resolution, e.g., from southeastern Europe, as previously proposed for El Argar. Unraveling these apparently contradictory data will certainly require further in depth analyses both on the archaeological and the archaeogenetic level."

See: Anna Szecsenyi-Nagy, Christina Roth, Brandt Guido, Wolfgang Haak, Kurt W. AltThe maternal genetic make-up of the Iberian Peninsula between the Neolithic and the Early Bronze Age

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/02/10/106963

Plus, the eastern part of Spain still spoke Iberian languages when the Romans arrived. The Celtic "Indo-European" steppe languages are on the other side of Iberia, the western side, which would make sense with an arrival from central Europe, probably France.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Iberia_300BC-en.svg/400px-Iberia_300BC-en.svg.png

Aaron1981
20-11-17, 21:34
It seems the case after finding (http://www.laopiniondemurcia.es/municipios/2017/11/17/investigadores-universidad-autonoma-barcelona/876009.html)some steppe DNA in El Argar culture (southeastern Spain):



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Argar

the culture has some "Aegean" cultural relations, and by such epoch it's not known any continental migration towards the penninsula; and as we know now Portuguese R1b of the Bronze Age and Catalan R1b Bell Beakers had not steppe DNA, so... only sirens can explain the case!
:)

not kidding now: what about Mycaenians? Minoans?

The Portugese R1b do show a shift to the steppe as some third parties like Davidski have shown, even though it is considerably smaller than central Europe. This is because the mithochondrial pool stayed largely the same, and we have an influx of males who took local mates. I'm not sure what is difficult to understand about that. Mycenae show a similar shift. Perhaps these were the same men?

Even today, a huge component of continental Europeans show plenty of admixture from EEF. Even the central European Bell Beaker graves demonstrate this. If you proxy these as hypothetical ancestors, and then combine it with local admixture with females in Spain and other regions of southern Europe, you will have considerably less steppe ancestry.

R1b-M269 hasn't turned up in any Neolithic graves nor anything before that. What exactly is up for debate here?

berun
20-11-17, 22:17
Wow, look at it. More indications of Steppe arrival in Iberia. You world is crumbling down fast. I wonder, if one day you will have a courage to admit you were wrong, or you just going to vanish in shame?
well, what to say?

9454

bicicleur
20-11-17, 22:25
http://dienekes.blogspot.be/2012/09/la-bastida-bronze-age-iberian-fortified.html
La Bastida was built 4 ka on a hill. There was a 200-year farmers village on this hill which was destroyed and burned down prior to the construction of La Bastida.
La Bastida brought many new elements that were not known in Iberia prior to 4 ka : bronze metallurgy, the La Bastida fortifications architecture reminiscent of the Levant and Troj and burials in jars.
It looks like they were not so friendly intruders from outside Iberia.
From here bronze metallurgy spread over Iberia.

Angela
20-11-17, 22:31
http://dienekes.blogspot.be/2012/09/la-bastida-bronze-age-iberian-fortified.html
La Bastida was built 4 ka on a hill. There was a 200-year farmers village on this hill which was destroyed and burned down prior to the construction of La Bastida.
La Bastida brought many new elements that were not known in Iberia prior to 4 ka : bronze metallurgy, the La Bastida fortifications architecture reminiscent of the Levant and Troj and burials in jars.
It looks like they were not so friendly intruders from outside Iberia.

Indeed, but it would have been a male mediated change given the results of the large ancient mtDna study. Where those males might have been from is another issue. I always favored either southeastern Europe and perhaps more specifically the Aegean for the El Argar culture, given the cultural signs and that this was a sea borne migration. I also thought that might have been the entry point for J2 lineages into Iberia. I guess we'll see.

Of course, that doesn't mean there weren't those migrations of Indo-European speakers from Central Europe, because there were. I have always thought that was a western Iberian thing more than an eastern European thing, and that it came from Central Europe, especially given the language distribution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Argar#Related_cultures


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Iberia_Bronze.gif

berun
20-11-17, 23:33
in the audio (http://cadenaser.com/emisora/2017/11/17/radio_murcia/1510906585_606724.html) the archaelogists explain what are getting geneticists..... they tested mtDNA and nuclear DNA, females were local EEF and males no, being surely outsiders from South Russia, akin to those in Balkans, Ireland and Portugal. The admixture of such females and males provided the actual gene pool in Spain.
And true, it's kinda strange to change your kurgan for a big jar or a cist below the floor of your home.

ROS
21-11-17, 00:04
Awesome!


But of course in Murcia part of "the bastida" (which is the most impressive found so far, with only 10% excavated) there are many Argar archaeological sites without investigating, given the evidence would be necessary an investigation no longer with funds of the autonomous community, but with State and even European funds.

I do not want to anticipate, but could it be the majority of the haplogroups Y R1B and mitochondrial H1 and a steppe mix of 25% after combining invaders and premises?



I think 25% is little, taking into account that it is supposed to be the origin of genetic pull in the Iberian peninsula, I would bet for 35% steppe.

LeBrok
21-11-17, 06:31
It might have been the first IE wave that reached Iberia, but not necessarily closely related with later Celts. We should jump into big conclusions yet.

davef
21-11-17, 07:23
So the Indo Europeans relied on deadly Greek mermaids with beautiful, sailor attracting voices to get them to Iberia? ;)

berun
21-11-17, 08:24
To me it's necessary to look at rough data, Minoans and pre-Mycaenians had a late CHG component, if it spread in SE Spain through colonies looking for ores, such signal could be taken as steppe-like, but far to be truly so.

bicicleur
21-11-17, 08:27
in the audio (http://cadenaser.com/emisora/2017/11/17/radio_murcia/1510906585_606724.html) the archaelogists explain what are getting geneticists..... they tested mtDNA and nuclear DNA, females were local EEF and males no, being surely outsiders from South Russia, akin to those in Balkans, Ireland and Portugal. The admixture of such females and males provided the actual gene pool in Spain.
And true, it's kinda strange to change your kurgan for a big jar or a cist below the floor of your home.

it seems IE entered Europe via many different routes, but only a few of them expanded inside Europe and replaced many others

the time frame seems to be right, 4 ka is the time the expanding Sintashta and Srubnaya was replacing the Yamna and Catacomb folks on the steppe

berun
21-11-17, 15:51
the time is that involving the occupation of Greece by the IE proto-Mycaenians, and that could trigger the migration of locals as refugees in colonies afar, if the Argar language was IE or Pelasgian it will depend if the admixture included some EHG, if done with CHG alone it would not be IE, but it could mimic an steppe admixture if found together with the high WHG component of Chalco Iberia.

LeBrok
21-11-17, 17:20
the time is that involving the occupation of Greece by the IE proto-Mycaenians, and that could trigger the migration of locals as refugees in colonies afar, if the Argar language was IE or Pelasgian it will depend if the admixture included some EHG, if done with CHG alone it would not be IE, but it could mimic an steppe admixture if found together with the high WHG component of Chalco Iberia. My admixtures calculation was showing that the first IE could have arrived to Iberia via Balkans (Hungarian Bronze Age), and not from North West Europe. Lets wait and see. Soon everything will be revealed.

berun
21-11-17, 21:11
By now I prefer to rely on archaeology: the first continental spreads are the Atlantic Bronze (from West France?) providing Lusitanian and Galaican (??), and Urnfield (S Germany - Austria) providing Celtiberian. By the way as far as I know there is no proof about any IE language in SW Spain prior to the Roman rule.

Olympus Mons
22-11-17, 01:25
Yes. Only portugal with lusitanian.

Pygmalion
23-11-17, 19:38
There is absolutely no evidence for direct contacts taking place during the El Argar phase between people from the Aegean and Iberians, there is only a handful of Mycenaean sherds dating back to 14-13th century bc in Iberia, so much later than the El Argar period.

Later there are some Cypriot objects found in Iberia belonging to an even later phase (12-9th century bc) that according to F.Lo Schiavo, Bernardini and other experts were actually Sardinian imitations or at least mediated by Sardinians.

There is absolutely no evidence for direct contact between Minoans and the people of El Argar, the Minoan culture ended during the 15th century bc due to the Mycenans taking over the island.

It is really unlikely that Minoans arrived in Iberia without leaving one pottery shred and bypassing Sicily and Sardinia, as I've said above the only few Aegean pottery shreds found in Iberia belong to the Mycenaean phase, and it's just a handful that could've arrived there non directly through a third party.

To my knowledge Minoans barely made it to Apulia and stop, and even then they didn't leave much traces compared to the later Mycenaeans.

The only Western culture that probably had contacts witht he El Argar people were the early Nuragics of Sardinia, which used a type of arsenical bronze swords (Sant'Iroxi) which was obviously influenced by the El Argar swords.

El Argar was a local development, which originated from the Los Millares culture, a culture by far older than even the pre-palatial Minoans, later alone Minoans proper, another note: their swords had nothing to do with Aegean swords, the fact that they were buried in cists is probably just a coincidence, that aside their material culture is completely different from the Aegean one, both pottery and weapons.

berun
23-11-17, 21:07
I'm aware about the lack of proofs for Aegean contacts, but there are things that after looking at papers about El Argar could support a colonist scenario: archaeologists are shy to say it but citadels are copies of Minoan palaces, also the previous Millares architecture is very different, Los Millares vanished by 2250, Argar pop up suddenly by 2200, apparition of bronze objects, end of colective burials under tumulus and start of individual burials under the floor on cist or jar, and ceramics are not so important if migration is male based (miners and smiths) as local women would have their own ceramics or traditions.

Pygmalion
23-11-17, 21:21
"and ceramics are not so important if migration is male based (miners and smiths) as local women would have their own ceramics or traditions."

Not really, any other migration (Greeks, Phoenicians) has left behind ample material proof, starting from thousands upon thousands of ceramics, even if they were male based.

"archaeologists are shy to say it but citadels are copies of Minoan palaces"

They don't see very shy to me, they seem too eager to prove this supposed connection which to me seems completely imagined, the appearance of cists burials doesn't mean much and could very well be a coincidence.

I don't see any particular resemblance between El Argar towns and Minoan ones, to mention that Minoan culture barely existed back in 2200 bc, it was its very first steps, and all its defining features (frescoes, massive palaces, written language) weren't still around.

It seems very weird to me that a group capable of displacing the locals didn't leave one single Aegean idol in Iberia, or any Minoan pottery shred or other Minoan like object, and the swords too are completely different from early Aegean swords.

I'm amazed that some archaeologists could make such an assertion upon a feature that could very be developed independently, I'm really amazed, when I looked up into the supposed proofs of this "Minoan colonization" and I found that there isn't any aside from features that could be explained locally I was speechless that some archaeologists really proposed this.

Just look at Phoenician colonization, just in Huelva Phoenicians left like 3,000 shreds in the very first phase of colonization

berun
23-11-17, 21:54
weapons are quite similar

http://www.elargar.com/caracterizacion/Artefactos/Objetos/?__locale=en

https://www.aegeussociety.org/en/index.php/image-database/entry/pendlebury-1939-115

berun
23-11-17, 21:57
ceramics were a luxury item traded by Phoenicians and Greeks, it is not the same case if you are a colonist or miner.

berun
23-11-17, 22:00
the same kind of palatial estructure is present in Sardinia, maybe it also is known in Crete, I don't know

http://www.ruta-argarica.es/la-almoloya/sala-de-audiencias/

Pygmalion
23-11-17, 22:21
Vaguely, like any other arsenical copper sword.

Their material culture is vastly different, the emergence of individual burials could be easily explained with the local development of bronze technology

Pygmalion
23-11-17, 22:34
They weren't luxury item necessarily, Phoenicians and Greeks traveled with every kind of pottery from cooking pots to jars, in every single colonization the migrants brought a lot of pottery, not only that but they started making it themselves on the spot along with the local.

If we look at the Phoenicians colonization of Andalusia, every excavated Phoenician settlement presented thousands upon thousands of Phoenician pottery shreds and other Phoenician objects like looms, pendants, etc.

Same thing with the Greeks.

Colonization movements can be easily traced, no way on earth Minoan colonized Andalusia without bringing their material culture along, to me it's an obvious case of convergence.

ROS
23-11-17, 23:05
According to the professors of the Autonomous University, the men of the Algar culture have their origin in the steppes and come to the Iberian Peninsula through Ireland!, Galicia and Portugal, being the women of a more Neolithic mixture, that Does this have to do with the Minoics or Mycenaeans?

They also comment that while in central Europe the Neolithic invasion practically eliminated the previous hunter-gatherers, in the Iberian Peninsula there was a mixture between hunter-gatherers and Neolithic, where is this mixture of hunter gatherer today ?.

berun
24-11-17, 00:06
the archaeologists "translated" the genetic results got by geneticists after computing it with the actual Reichist steppemania.

for hunter gatherers I suppose that they rely on information about an increase of the WHG component in the Chalco.

ROS
24-11-17, 01:03
In this forum I recognize that it is possibly the one with the least academic training in these subjects, but my curiosity about history has led me to visit this and other forums, I know that here there are good professionals, also some agendas that eventually the truth always triumphs today, tomorrow, or in 20 or 40 years, hence they are wasting their time, because in these subjects one should try to shine the truth and only the truth.

But of course I am an amateur with curiosity about history, when I consider the view of the pre-Roman Iberian peninsula, it really is a puzzle, because we observe that the natural connection with Europe through the two Pyrenean coasts of the Basque and Catalan They meet with non-Indo-European, Basque and Iberian languages ​​and in the interior we find several Celtic and non-Celtic languages ​​but if Indo-European -> Lusitano and Ventn among others, how is this variety of non-Celtic Celtic proven Indo-European languages ​​cohabiting with languages ​​like the Iberian, tartsico, Basque, not Indo-European ?.

Iberian and Tartessian languages ​​with their own writing?

This puzzle can be explained in part by the condition of the Iberian peninsula of having collected atlantic, mediterranean and central european influences.

Lately it was thought that the Iberian peninsula was the origin and repopulation of Europe (I do not rule out that it was so after the glaciation), but that is ruled out, there were legends in Ireland that came from the Iberian Peninsula, that was ruled out, but great is that it is the reverse that part of the population of the Iberian peninsula comes from Ireland, this being true explains many things of the Iberian puzzle, for example change of language in the inner part of the peninsula (the Visigothic did not manage to change the language ) and in the natural steps towards Europe non-Indo-European language, the Q-Celtic languages of the peninsula, these did not come from France clearly, but I think from Ireland.


In short, this new contribution of the Catalan professors in the international research in which they are found has given me some light in the tunnel of the Iberian puzzle.

Sorry for the text so long, also with Google translations is a bit like what I want to say.



The only thing that does not fit into this history of Argaric culture is that architecture so brutal in this remote age coming from Ireland, surely the architects were Neolithic women.

Angela
24-11-17, 05:24
No Celts came from Ireland to populate Spain. That's as incorrect as the old idea that Iberians migrated to the British Isles. Pre or Proto Celtic spread from somewhere in central Europe. From there it went to the British Isles. From Central Europe it also went down through France and into Spain. There was no large scale migration from Ireland to Iberia. It didn't happen.

Tartessian:
"Tartessian is generally left unclassified, due to lack of data, or proposed to be a language isolate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_isolate) due to an absence of connections to the Indo-European languages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages).[20] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessian_language#cite_note-20)[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessian_language#cite_note-21) Some Tartessian names have been interpreted as Indo-European or more specifically as Celtic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages).[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessian_language#cite_note-22)However, the language as a whole remains inexplicable from the Celtic or Indo-European point of view; the structure of Tartessian syllables appears to be incompatible with Celtic or even Indo-European phonetics, and more compatible with Iberian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_language) or Basque (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_language); any Celtic elements are thought to be borrowings by some scholars.[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessian_language#cite_note-23)Since 2009, John T. Koch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_T._Koch) has argued that Tartessian is a Celtic language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_language) and that the texts can be translated.[24] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessian_language#cite_note-koch2009-24)[25] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessian_language#cite_note-koch2011-25)[26] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessian_language#cite_note-villarceltic-26)[27] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessian_language#cite_note-27) Koch's thesis has been popularised by the BBC TV series The Celts[28] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessian_language#cite_note-BBC_CELT-28) and the associated book by Alice Roberts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Roberts).[29] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessian_language#cite_note-Roberts2015-29) However, his proposals have been regarded with scepticism by academic linguists and the script, which is "hardly suitable for the denotation of an Indo-European language[,] leaves ample room for interpretation."[30] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessian_language#cite_note-BMCRZeilder-30)"


See also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_language

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Mapa_lleng%C3%BCes_paleohisp%C3%A0niques-ang.jpg


We have to distinguish between Los Millares and El Argar, and we'll have to wait for the release of the ancient dna to figure out who settled Los Millares and subsequently .
El Argar.

Archaeological evidence has not been very dispositive, but what there was seemed to indicate an origin somewhere to the east.

At the time of the emergence of Los Millares there were no steppe groups who were building settlements like this:


http://www.culturandalucia.com/ALMER%C3%8DA/Los_Millares_MS08_dibujo_reconst.1_texto_web.JPG

"Los Millares participated in the continental trends of Megalithism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalith) and the Beaker culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture). Analysis of occupation material and grave goods (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grave_goods) from the Los Millares cemetery (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cemetery) of 70 tholos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beehive_tomb) tombs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb) with port-hole slabs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port-hole_slab) has led archaeologists (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeologist) to suggest that the people who lived at Los Millares were part of a stratified, unequal society which was often at war with its neighbours. The Los Millares civilisation was replaced circa 1800 BC, with the arrival of Bronze (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age) by the El Argar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Argar) civilisation, whose successor culture is embodied in the contemporary culture of Vila Nova de São Pedro (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vila_Nova_de_S%C3%A3o_Pedro) in nearby Portugal.
Other Iberian settlements (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberians) in this region of a similar age to Los Millares include the settlement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_settlement) of Los Silillos (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Los_Silillos&action=edit&redlink=1) and Neolithic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic) finds at Cabrera (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sierra_de_Cabrera_(Almer%C3%ADa)&action=edit&redlink=1) (es (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierra_de_Cabrera_(Almer%C3%ADa))).[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Millares#cite_note-5)
Similarities between Los Millares architecture and the step pyramid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Step_pyramid) at Monte d'Accoddi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_d%27Accoddi) in Sardinia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinia) have been noticed."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Millares

If I'm remembering correctly, Jean Manco used to hold that Los Millares might have been built by prospectors and miners from the Balkans, i.e. Old Europe.

El Argar is 2200 BC. It is the beginning of the Bronze Age proper in Spain. I'm not aware of any steppe related groups at that time, and certainly not in 3000 BC who had a sea faring culture. Nor am I aware of them building anything remotely looking like this even in 2200 BC:
http://www.ruta-argarica.es/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/6_600x400.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Argar

"The collective burial tradition typical of European Megalithic Culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Megalithic_Culture) is abandoned in favor of individual burials. The tholos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beehive_tomb) is abandoned in favour of small cists (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cist), either under the homes or outside. This trend seems to come from the Eastern Mediterranean, most likely from Mycenaean Greece (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece) (skipping Sicily (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily)and Italy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy), where the collective burial tradition remains for some time yet).
From the Argarian civilization, these new burial customs will gradually and irregularly extend to the rest of Iberia.
In the phase B of this civilization, burial in pithoi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pithos) (large jars) becomes most frequent (see: Jar-burials (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jar-burials)). Again this custom (that never reached beyond the Argarian circle) seems to come from Greece, where it was used after. ca 2000 BC."




Mycenaean Greece (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece): some cultural exchanges across the Mediterranean are very clear, with Argarians adopting Greek funerary customs (individual burials, first in cist and then in pithos), while Greeks also import the Iberian tholos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beehive_tomb) for the same purpose.


Still, the ancient dna will sort it out. Whatever it is, it is.

bicicleur
24-11-17, 09:19
the first settlement was La Bastida, the other El Argar settlements came later

the Iberian Celts - at least those that were in Iberia during the Punic wars are supposed to have arrived in the 6th cent BC - between Hallstadt and La Tene period

nevertheless, the report claims that mixture of incoming El Argar people with local population gave way to present day Iberian population

ROS
24-11-17, 10:26
@Angela what you explain is what was believed until now, that is why what these Catalan professors say is revolutionary.

Pygmalion
24-11-17, 11:21
In 2000-1800 bc Mycenaean Greece wasn't even a thing, they were not a significant power until the 15th century bc when they conquered Crete, it's pure speculation and I really doubt the semi tribal chiefdoms in what was then mainland Greece had the ability to launch a colonization campaign 1,000 kilometers away from their homeland.

Again, to anybody who is familiar with archaeological papers about prehistoric migrations, be it Greeks in the bronze age and iron age, Phoenicians in the iron age, etc. the colonizers leave behind a lot of material evidence, if a migration took place the evidence would be there, however there isn't any.

Things like rectangular buildings were common in all proto urban and urban societies, from the Levant, to Greece and to Italy, and can all be explained as a convergence phenomenon, as well as the burial in cists.

Even sporadic contacts without any colonization left behind a lot of material evidence in Italy, see for example those between Greeks and South Italy during the late bronze age, how could a full fledged colonization movement to Spain leave no proof behind?

berun
24-11-17, 16:03
if you apply all it to the demic expansion of the IE protolanguage I think you will face a big problem... take per example the Mycaeneans, from where they came? which material proofs can you provide?

Pygmalion
24-11-17, 17:34
if you apply all it to the demic expansion of the IE protolanguage I think you will face a big problem... take per example the Mycaeneans, from where they came? which material proofs can you provide?

To the IE Expansion?

There is loads of evidence for Helladic Greece receiving some outside influence from the IE cultures around the Danube basin, also it's not like the Myceneans "came" from God knows where, the Myceneans/Early greeks formed from the mixing of the IE migrants with the local people from early Helladic Greece.

You can apply my line of reasoning for every migration movement, from the IE people invading Britain and replacing their material culture with central European bell beaker culture, to the Greeks from Corinth settling Syracuse in Sicily and so on.

Of course it's a necessary but not sufficient condition, foreign materials do not necessarily imply a significant number of foreign migrants, let alone population displacement, but they are a requirement to postulate those thing..

berun
24-11-17, 19:17
some proof at all? leaving aside trade items, of course

Yetos
24-11-17, 19:57
GUYS

THINK ABOUT THIS

CASSITERIDES ISLES,

MINOANS AND MYCENEANS TRAVEL TILL BRITISH ISLANDS,
DO YOU THINK THEY DID NOT HAD ANY ALLY, OR AN EMPORIUM, AFTER S. ITALY?
TILL ALL THE WAY TO ATLANTIC and NORTH SEA?

A. Papadimitriou
24-11-17, 20:39
It seems the case after finding (http://www.laopiniondemurcia.es/municipios/2017/11/17/investigadores-universidad-autonoma-barcelona/876009.html)some steppe DNA in El Argar culture (southeastern Spain):https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Argarthe culture has some "Aegean" cultural relations, and by such epoch it's not known any continental migration towards the penninsula; and as we know now Portuguese R1b of the Bronze Age and Catalan R1b Bell Beakers had not steppe DNA, so... only sirens can explain the case!:)not kidding now: what about Mycaenians? Minoans?Depends on the type of the relations. Basically I have said that Mycenean 'tombs' are more similar in concept with W/NW European megalithic 'tombs'.According to ancient Greek writers Greek element existed in the South in the regions which later became Phoenician (and among the Phoenicians later), for example in Tartessos (@Angela which is a possible entry point for J2 lineages but not the only one).In Eastern Spain we had a non-IE language (Iberian). I think there was contact between Greeks (likely Ionians) and Iberians of Murcia certainly during or before the 5th century BC (but maybe not much before).(One good question -maybe not much important or not related- is what haplogroups existed in North Western Africa at that time and earlier, because E-M81 expanded in most of Maghreb the last 2000 years)

A. Papadimitriou
24-11-17, 20:52
One possible scenario is that the people who brought the 'steppe' admixture spoke a pre-proto-Iberian language and not Celtic.

Angela
24-11-17, 20:55
So, what "steppe" group had a sea faring culture in 2600 BC? If, according to the Catalan professors the steppe element entered Spain from the southeast, and not from the north and over the Pyrenees as all other theories have proposed, that's how they arrived.

That's the question for the Catalan professors.

This is roughly the time of Corded Ware and Bell Beaker in Europe, but there's no evidence they took to the sea. Minoan Crete wouldn't have "steppe", and neither would the Phoenicians.

That leaves displaced Balkans groups with some steppe and Aegean peoples perhaps from the coast of Turkey who also had some steppe? I don't know. What was Cyprus like at that time, or Sardinia?

This culture didn't just grow up independently. It brought Bronze technology and a stratified culture to Spain, as well as the knowledge to build a sophisticated settlement and defensive walls. Interestingly, that architecture didn't make it past the confines of El Argar, apparently.

Now, if they were locals in contact with the eastern Mediterranean, they could have built this culture. You wouldn't need gene flow. The most recent example of GAC shows us that. However, they're saying these people had a steppe element. That narrows the possible scenarios.

Unless, perhaps the steppe element had filtered down to these people from the north and the culture part came from the east.

They need to contact the Reich Lab and turn over the skeletal material. Also, very little of it has been excavated.

bicicleur
24-11-17, 21:54
La Bastida itself is a rather recent finding.
The invading group were warriors, but it must have been a relatively small group, as La Bastida was their only such settlement.
Some warrior group that had lost a battle somewhere and was on the run looking for a new place to stay.
Also IE groups could be able to travel along the Mediterranean shores.
The Usatovo 5.5 - 4.5 ka would have had quite an extensive trade network, part of the transport was probably done by rowing longboats.
4 ka is before the time of the larger Minoan vessels with sails. And till the bronze age collapse, 3.2 ka regular traffic by boat was confined to the eastern Mediterranean.

Somehow this whole story reminds me of the Moorish conquerors of Andalusia and Iberia who came all the way from Baghdad, where they had lost a battle against a competing dynasty.

If we were to rely just on archeology, where would we have traced the origins of the Moorish?
No, we need DNA.

Pygmalion
24-11-17, 22:35
I still don't understand the chronology of the El Argar culture very well, anyway Los Millares already was a proto urban settlement with walls back in 3025 bc according to C14 analysis, so way before any steppe admixture got to Spain, then it is likely to conclude that those proto urban features were developed independently, 3025 bc, that's even earlier than the oldest Aegean proto urban settlements like Poliochne.

Regarding your other question, about Sardinia and Cyprus during the time of the El Argar culture, Sardinia had developed a proto urban culture known as the Monteclaro culture (2700-2100 bc), they had some cists burials too like the El Argar people, the settlements had rectangular buildings and were encircled by massive stone walls, the most notable one being Monte Baranta (2500-2200 bc):

http://i1.wp.com/www.sardegnadies.it/wp-content/gallery/olmedo/MonteBarantaEvento3.jpg


https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/09/10/7c/e8/complesso-megalitico.jpg


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-hAsNlg0koJg/V2P9CvUknoI/AAAAAAAACRI/WK0JVt1W2qEYeQGbsN7NVew9ExJBjNv1gCK4B/s1600/2.JPG


While in Cyprus too rectangular houses start to be come widespread during the early bronze age, the Philia (2400-1600 bc) culture had interesting features and their idols display some similarities with the Aegean ones

https://static.cambridge.org/resource/id/urn:cambridge.org:id:binary:20161117114859146-0178:9781139028387:76688fig8_4.png?pub-status=live

ROS
24-11-17, 23:42
La Bastida itself is a rather recent finding.
The invading group were warriors, but it must have been a relatively small group, as La Bastida was their only such settlement.
Some warrior group that had lost a battle somewhere and was on the run looking for a new place to stay.
Also IE groups could be able to travel along the Mediterranean shores.
The Usatovo 5.5 - 4.5 ka would have had quite an extensive trade network, part of the transport was probably done by rowing longboats.
4 ka is before the time of the larger Minoan vessels with sails. And till the bronze age collapse, 3.2 ka regular traffic by boat was confined to the eastern Mediterranean.

Somehow this whole story reminds me of the Moorish conquerors of Andalusia and Iberia who came all the way from Baghdad, where they had lost a battle against a competing dynasty.

If we were to rely just on archeology, where would we have traced the origins of the Moorish?
No, we need DNA.

The Argaric culture at least in Murcia, which is what I know, is a culture whose remains are everywhere, and there are many unexplored archaeological sites, a culture that has influenced the rest of the Iberian Peninsula, that is, not we are talking about minutiae, La Bastida is one more (impressive but one more).


Argaric culture has been known for a long time, as I say there are remains everywhere in Murcia at least, but I think it needs to be investigated more systematically.


What is new is that genetic tests are done on human remains, and someone says (university professors in an international study) that what we find there is the genetic mixture of the entire Iberian Peninsula, this is the new thing.


And if science says that all Iberians are Moors, well said, is it bad? The problem is when they tell you that you are a Moor without being only because of prejudice towards the Iberians.

North of Africa is 13 kilometers from the Iberian Peninsula, but of course science tells us that there is a great genetic difference, I would say of the most important in so few kilometers, I consider myself anti-racist and anti-prejudice and seeker of the truth of things first of all.


How are we not going to have a certain North African component if they are our neighbors? It is normal, nothing happens, now we are basically Europeans.

Pygmalion
25-11-17, 00:49
The arsenical bronze swords from the middle El Argar culture have often been compared to those of early bronze age Sardinia (1700-1650 bc)

El Argar swords:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f2/a4/71/f2a47172b9c1d12d1d504fddcadb7423.jpg

https://echino.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/11-argar-e1-a.jpg

Sardinian Sant'Iroxi swords


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Fig._18_Le_spade_Sant_Iroxi_in_rame_arsenicato.jpg

https://scontent-sea1-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/s480x480/e35/22344911_1572945212765563_6847956256867483648_n.jp g?ig_cache_key=MTYyMzI3OTgxNjc3NzY0MjEyNg%3D%3D.2

ROS
25-11-17, 01:14
You take out a dagger from the Middle Ages, you take off the handle and it also looks like it.

Pygmalion
25-11-17, 01:31
That's what the experts of the bronze age Western mediterranean have concluded: http://www.academia.edu/1138694/LE_SPADE_DEL_BRONZO_ANTICO_E_MEDIO_DELLA_SARDEGNA_ E_DEL_SUD-EST_SPAGNOLO_ANALOGIE_DIFFERENZE_E_POSSIBILE_DEREI VAZIONE_DAI_PUGNALI_CAMPANIFORME._2012Also Also I don't think daggers can be 70 cms long.

I too was doubtful but if F.Lo Schiavo and Parronda, who are major experts in that field have concluded that, they probably have their reasons.

We know for certain that direct contacts between Andalusia and Sardinia did happen later in the final bronze age and early iron age, as testified both by a huge variety of bronze objects (tripodes, axes, swords) and by a considerable number of Nuragic pottery shards having been found in Andalusia and even reproduced locally there in some occasions, some of them were also found in pre-Phoenician contexts:

http://www.academia.edu/29053155/Ripensando_i_contatti_fra_Sardegna_e_Penisola_Iber ica_all_alba_del_I_millennio_a.C._Vecchie_e_nuove_ evidenze

http://www.raco.cat/index.php/CuadernosArqueologia/article/viewFile/276368/392932

So I wouldn't be surprised if some contacts happened earlier in the early and middle bronze age

Angela
25-11-17, 03:14
@Pygmalion,
Cyprus and/or Sardinia seem a lot more likely as the source of the culture given the similarities in the material culture, the architecture, the burials, and the documented contacts from later on.

The Ozieri Culture in Sardinia already showed influence from Crete and Malta in 3200 BC. It would only increase.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozieri_culture

The professors may have confused a chunk of WHG plus a bit of CHG for "steppe" ancestry.

We won't know unless the samples are checked by people who know what they're doing.

A shame that all these Southern European cultures have not been more extensively excavated and studied. I'd love to know more about Los Millares and El Argar.

@Ros,
No, it wouldn't be bad if all Iberians were Moors, but that isn't the case. Has there been some gene flow? Yes, it seems there has, but these are two different populations, which have been subject to different gene flows from different areas. The North Africans, in particular, have been changed by a lot of gene flow from SSA which didn't affect Spain and Portugal anywhere to that degree. They don't have EHG, for another. Even their amount of WHG, which would have come from Spain, is less than is present in Iberia, from what I remember. So, as I said, two very different populations.

The same has happened everywhere in Europe. At borders there is always some amount of gene flow in both directions. It's, as you say, normal.

bicicleur
25-11-17, 08:45
@Pygmalion,
Cyprus and/or Sardinia seem a lot more likely as the source of the culture given the similarities in the material culture, the architecture, the burials, and the documented contacts from later on.



or Cyprus, Sardinia and El Aragar have some common source

bicicleur
25-11-17, 08:51
The Argaric culture at least in Murcia, which is what I know, is a culture whose remains are everywhere, and there are many unexplored archaeological sites, a culture that has influenced the rest of the Iberian Peninsula, that is, not we are talking about minutiae, La Bastida is one more (impressive but one more).


Argaric culture has been known for a long time, as I say there are remains everywhere in Murcia at least, but I think it needs to be investigated more systematically.



La Bastida is the oldest settlement, the rest came later.
It seems to me La Bastida was built and inhabited by the newcomers, while in the other fortifications an elite of newcomers lived to controll the surrounding local population, and their resources (fertile lands and trade routes).

berun
25-11-17, 09:18
some plates about such lost civilization:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/echino.wordpress.com/2009/09/28/antas-cerca-del-rio-el-argar2/amp/

ROS
25-11-17, 11:32
Argar and Los Millares are not the same, two basic distinctive notes:


The Millares: Community life, collective burials.
El Argar: Strongly hierarchical life, individual burials.

MOESAN
25-11-17, 21:31
I agree El Argar seem the result of a new elite (males?) relatively brutal or quick introgression in S-E Iberia. The loose cultural links with Hellad could be the due to the fact that Hellad received new inputs from the same culture who sent colonizers to some Western Europe places? (I already red this and take it for my account too). I some of the Central Europe cultures of the same time or just a bit after this kind of sepulture existed if I red well surely in synthetical cultures where IE intruders and Old Europe (or rather new people from Anatolia autosomally still close enough to Old Europe people) took part : by instance in Unetice: heterogenous modes of burying, but someones in Jars like in El Argar, and evident influence of Syria/Anatolia, what is not the sign in Unetice of a pop dominantly come from there!? It could explain the links and the imperfect aspect of these links?

berun
25-11-17, 23:20
another convergence:

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/83/aa/4a/83aa4a79284bd7c8ebbe5bdccf0d8dae--mycenaean-minoan.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Museo_Arqueológico_Nacional_-_1962-9-1_-_Espada_de_Guadalajara_01.jpg

MOESAN
26-11-17, 20:24
Thanks for the links and pictures but I'm not archeologist; what ties with what do these swords or cutlasses show?

MOESAN
26-11-17, 20:26
BTW the elite burials in El Argar were in cists under tumuli -

ROS
26-11-17, 20:52
Archaeological site Argrico "La Almoloya", in Pliego (Murcia):


During the last archaeological campaign, which ended in September, dozens of tombs have been found, most of them provided with offerings. The burials are located in the basement of the same dwellings, as the researchers Emeterio Cuadrado and Juan de la Cierva already proved in the forties. A tomb stands next to the main head of the audience room, inside which the remains of a man and a woman in a flexed position have been found, accompanied by thirty rich offerings made of noble metals and semiprecious stones. One of the most relevant pieces is a silver diadem that encircles the skull of the woman, especially considering that the last ones were discovered more than 130 years ago in El Argar, and none of them is preserved today in Spain. Four ear dilators have also been found, two of solid gold and two of silver, in addition to rings, earrings, bracelets and silver nails that held the handle of a beautiful copper dagger. Also noteworthy is a ceramic cup covered by thin sheets of silver and a metal punch with a copper tip and a handle forged entirely in silver.

bicicleur
26-11-17, 21:02
another convergence:

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/83/aa/4a/83aa4a79284bd7c8ebbe5bdccf0d8dae--mycenaean-minoan.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Museo_Arqueológico_Nacional_-_1962-9-1_-_Espada_de_Guadalajara_01.jpg

how old is the El Argar sword?
this must be one of the oldest

Pygmalion
26-11-17, 21:51
The sword you have posted, berun, does not belong to the El Argar culture

berun
27-11-17, 11:17
how old is the El Argar sword?
this must be one of the oldest

https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espada_de_Guadalajara

not the oldest...

berun
27-11-17, 11:18
BTW the elite burials in El Argar were in cists under tumuli -
under tumuli? how that if the cist where placed under the floor of their homes?

Pygmalion
27-11-17, 12:49
El Argar swords are older, but they're made of arsenical copper, not bronze.

berun
27-11-17, 13:47
El Argar survived till 1400. The sword was made with copper, it is in the file of the museum where it's exhibited.

Pygmalion
27-11-17, 14:21
Yes, but those swords date back to 1700 bc.

bicicleur
27-11-17, 14:50
El Argar survived till 1400. The sword was made with copper, it is in the file of the museum where it's exhibited.

if it is just copper, not bronze, it is useless in battle, it is just for parade

ROS
27-11-17, 15:26
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesoro_de_Villena

Pygmalion
27-11-17, 17:27
if it is just copper, not bronze, it is useless in battle, it is just for parade

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenical_copper

It was made of arsenical copper, so it was could be used as a weapon, most swords were made of arsenical copper since 3200 bc before they used actual bronze for swords

MOESAN
30-11-17, 01:05
under tumuli? how that if the cist where placed under the floor of their homes?
Sorry Berun I made a medley, maybe, by too much shorting; here under translation of Jacques BRIARD in my bad english:
"the buryings, now, are often individual inhumations under tumulus - sometimes double: mother and child or husband and wife, united in eternity as during life - where the corpses are sprinkled with ocre, very long lasting rite. In the tumulus center, skeletons are buried into pits or little coffers 85cm of length for the biggest ones, what implies a strange gymnastic to push/force the poor corpses into them. Never the term of "forced position" will be so justified.
But it's worst in another rite, more widespread: inhumation in jars. The dead person was pushed, as it came, its head afore, in a big egg-shape urn 40 to 70 cm of height, with funerary offerings..." (jars: an Eastern Mediterranean rite, but known at low level in Unetice)
it could prove the funerary habits were not uniform and that different elites could have met there during this culture genesis? Changes of supremacy??? Jars from South-East, Tumuli from North or Northwest? only lowcost bets of mine.

ROS
30-11-17, 01:19
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Argar
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Argar)
versus

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilizaci%C3%B3n_mic%C3%A9nica (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Argar)

It is possible that "El Argar" has influenced the Mycenaean civilization?, because if we look at the chronology:

Argar beginning: 2200 before Christ.
Mycenaean beginning: 1600 before Christ.

I do not think so, but neither did the Mycenaean civilization influence "El Argar".

That there have been commercial and even cultural exchanges? in the safe Mediterranean, in the epoch in which they coexisted, but of course the "Argrica" culture in 600 years before the Mycenaean.

I'm sorry for my English, I say my English, what Google translates from my Spanish and I hope that what I say is understood, although I'm not sure.

I already believe that I am understanding the Indo-European within this puzzle that is the Iberian Peninsula, now it is about revealing the mystery of the theoretically non-Indo-European areas and with more R1b of the branch theoretically coming from the steppe, starting from the south, the Tartessian Is it Celtic or is it not ?, following the east and northeast of the Iberian-Basque-Aquitanian, when the wise in the matter will be able to unveil this mystery? for the moment I do not see answers to this mystery.

berun
30-11-17, 18:54
@MOESAN

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-P9zTZc5e-DI/UPgor6u-CJI/AAAAAAAAA4E/ZdBEVYAB5Os/s1600/P1010211.JPG

surely it is a bad interpretation by the author, it's not logic to make a tumulus in your floor.

The tradition of jar burials was in use in Anatolia, surely by people with CHG admixture. So Argar burials could be a casual convergence or a fashion that spread with cists and after some centuries it was majoritary.

MOESAN
30-11-17, 21:03
@MOESAN

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-P9zTZc5e-DI/UPgor6u-CJI/AAAAAAAAA4E/ZdBEVYAB5Os/s1600/P1010211.JPG

surely it is a bad interpretation by the author, it's not logic to make a tumulus in your floor.

The tradition of jar burials was in use in Anatolia, surely by people with CHG admixture. So Argar burials could be a casual convergence or a fashion that spread with cists and after some centuries it was majoritary.

I doubt this author made so a mistake, so i rather think that some variance was among El Argar burials as already mentioned (timing?) - a precise survey can focuse on a very spotty settlement and not to be representative of the whole? I don't know, I need more readings about it. I don't put your proper affirmation ni doubt.

berun
01-12-17, 08:19
Relaciones Mediterráneas de la Cultura de El Argar by HERMANFRID SCHUBART is online, I don't know if there is a more up to date similar paper.

MOESAN
01-12-17, 15:14
OK Berun, I 'll read. Thanks

MOESAN
07-12-17, 20:55
@Berun
I red it. If I understood correctly, the first El Argar center had rather sepultures in Pithos, so big urns, with the head in the bottom of it, contrary to other pithos tradition of Creta, by instance; and not in external necropole but among the population.
And in this frist center, there were no tumulus; tumuli were found rather more in North like in San Antôn de Orihuela, closer to Valencia, with dubious datations?
and the western zone (Granada) had kept on with ancient modes of burying, before adoption of urns in later phases?
The closer burying ways would have been found in Continental Greece, and not in Creta or in Sicilia, though in Greece there were occurrences of pithos under tumuli sometimes, what was not the case in the very Center of propragation of El Argar?
Where does this dark brown almost undecorated pottery come from? Were there not something like that in Greece at some time of History, replacing more beautiful pottery? I'm rather poor concerning archeology...
&: Valencia region could have been, IMO, an entry spot for some of the Y-R1b (L51/L11?) at some point; could it have had a concern with the tumuli there around those times? Only questions.

berun
08-12-17, 08:50
By sure the paper might be updated with new findings, per example in Greece:
http://www.archaeology.wiki/blog/2015/06/08/archaeological-research-middle-haliakmon-valley-part-4/
such cists and tholoi were used much more time before the Middle Helladic incinerations or cists under tumuli, and much more than the Mycaenian royal tombs.

halfalp
08-12-17, 16:55
I think because Kura-Araxes migrating in north-western ( Balkans ) direction at the same time indo-european migrating from balkans to anatolia might skewd our perception of the migration processus. Because Kura-Araxes and their siblings used cremation, we would never found a lot about the migration process but likely Yamnaya -> R1b -> Indo-Europeans / Kura-Araxes -> J2 -> Something maybe first anatolian iron age.

Brennos
23-12-17, 14:53
Any new about those statements?

berun
10-01-18, 20:05
by now waiting till september to hear what says Haak in Barcelona.

https://www.e-a-a.org/EAA2018/Programme.aspx?WebsiteKey=35414e88-a032-42d3-9e9b-d34ff524c79a&hkey=9ba73740-1809-47c0-bd96-13055196e087&Program_ContentCollectionOrganizerCommon=3

berun
10-01-18, 20:25
Title & Content

Title:
El Argar and the European Bronze Age – Rise and fall of the first state society in the western Mediterranean
Content:
El Argar is a unique socio-economic and political entity in the West Mediterranean between ca. 2200-1550 cal BCE. Archaeologically, it is chiefly characterized by hilltop settlements, with specialised workshops, storage rooms, large water reservoirs and other monumental buildings, as well as a very particular intramural burial ritual, organised along rather strict sex, age, and social class divides. The Argaric society went through a series of changes that led to larger and architecturally more complex urban or proto-urban centres controlling a territory of ca. 35.000 km2. Until recently, our understanding of El Argar was mainly based on the funerary evidence recovered by the Belgian engineers Henri and Louis Siret at the end of the 19th century. During the last years, large scale excavations at settlements such as La Bastida and La Almoloya are providing a much more complete picture of this society. Research carried out in the mining districts of the eastern part of Sierra Morena, as well as excavations in settlements located at the eastern fringes of the El Argar territory are also providing a better understanding of the internal differences in this vast area. Lastly, bio-anthropological evidence from isotope and ancient DNA work provides first insights into mobility, demography, kinship, and populations affinities. The aim of the session is to provide an overview of this recent research and to discuss the socio-economic and political organisation of El Argar. Contributions to this session should refer to the over-regional connections between El Argar and other contemporary Bronze Age societies.
Keywords:
El-Argar, Early-Bronze-Age, Southeast Iberia
Session associated with MERC:
no
Session associated with CIfA:
no
Session associated with SAfA:
no
Organisers

Main organiser:
Prof. Dr. Roberto Risch (Spain) 1
Co-organisers:
Group leader Molecular Anthropology Wolfgang Haak (Germany) 2
Visitant Professor Cristina Rihuete-Herrada (Spain) 1
Full Professor Vicente Lull (Spain) 1
Full Professor Rafael Micó (Spain) 1
Affiliations:
1. Autonomous University of Barcelona
2. Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History (Jena)

Angela
11-01-18, 01:37
Title & Content

Title:
El Argar and the European Bronze Age – Rise and fall of the first state society in the western Mediterranean
Content:
El Argar is a unique socio-economic and political entity in the West Mediterranean between ca. 2200-1550 cal BCE. Archaeologically, it is chiefly characterized by hilltop settlements, with specialised workshops, storage rooms, large water reservoirs and other monumental buildings, as well as a very particular intramural burial ritual, organised along rather strict sex, age, and social class divides. The Argaric society went through a series of changes that led to larger and architecturally more complex urban or proto-urban centres controlling a territory of ca. 35.000 km2. Until recently, our understanding of El Argar was mainly based on the funerary evidence recovered by the Belgian engineers Henri and Louis Siret at the end of the 19th century. During the last years, large scale excavations at settlements such as La Bastida and La Almoloya are providing a much more complete picture of this society. Research carried out in the mining districts of the eastern part of Sierra Morena, as well as excavations in settlements located at the eastern fringes of the El Argar territory are also providing a better understanding of the internal differences in this vast area. Lastly, bio-anthropological evidence from isotope and ancient DNA work provides first insights into mobility, demography, kinship, and populations affinities. The aim of the session is to provide an overview of this recent research and to discuss the socio-economic and political organisation of El Argar. Contributions to this session should refer to the over-regional connections between El Argar and other contemporary Bronze Age societies.
Keywords:
El-Argar, Early-Bronze-Age, Southeast Iberia
Session associated with MERC:
no
Session associated with CIfA:
no
Session associated with SAfA:
no
Organisers

Main organiser:
Prof. Dr. Roberto Risch (Spain) 1
Co-organisers:
Group leader Molecular Anthropology Wolfgang Haak (Germany) 2
Visitant Professor Cristina Rihuete-Herrada (Spain) 1
Full Professor Vicente Lull (Spain) 1
Full Professor Rafael Micó (Spain) 1
Affiliations:
1. Autonomous University of Barcelona
2. Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History (Jena)

This is great. When will this take place?

berun
11-01-18, 01:39
as provided in the link above this september in Barcelona

berun
29-04-18, 22:39
Worth to read (it's in Spanish), but if having problems with that the second part of the paper deals with comparative figures and photos.

http://e-spacio.uned.es/fez/view/bibliuned:master-GH-MTAIHAG-Jacarrillo

it's very clear that Argar Culture was instrusive, even if the author only admits cultural exchanges after looking that there are not Aegean pots (and what about Italian pots?).

CrazyDonkey
04-05-18, 00:29
It seems the case after finding (http://www.laopiniondemurcia.es/municipios/2017/11/17/investigadores-universidad-autonoma-barcelona/876009.html)some steppe DNA in El Argar culture (southeastern Spain):



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Argar

the culture has some "Aegean" cultural relations, and by such epoch it's not known any continental migration towards the penninsula; and as we know now Portuguese R1b of the Bronze Age and Catalan R1b Bell Beakers had not steppe DNA, so... only sirens can explain the case!
:)

not kidding now: what about Mycaenians? Minoans?

Nah, it was so-called "reflux Bell Beakers" from central Europe who were R1b Indo-Europeans and unrelated genetically to Iberian Bell Beakers. The "miscegenation [a loaded term] that constitutes the current genetic basis of the entire population of the Iberian Peninsula" simply means that it was a male-biased migration that resulted in most now in Iberia being R1b, when before they weren't. Mt-dna wouldn't show it, because the invaders/migrants were mostly males who married/interbred with local females.

berun
04-05-18, 14:30
The case is that 5 R1b Bronze Age Iberians have 0 steppe, you can argue it was lost after mating Spanish brunettes, but it's an option, a second one after Catalan BB R1b with low coverage and 0 steppe also. No matter, there are more BB samples in German lab, it works much better by sure.

The actual "steppe" came late, with Celtics from Central Europe, nothing new with that.

berun
04-05-18, 14:35
you say: Mt-dna wouldn't show it, because the invaders/migrants were mostly males who married/interbred with local females."
wow! females mated R1b blonde and musculated warriors and daughters didnt get any steppe fraction in autosomes!
Just wondering what does steppitis. :laughing:

Olympus Mons
05-05-18, 11:57
The case is that 5 R1b Bronze Age Iberians have 0 steppe, you can argue it was lost after mating Spanish brunettes, but it's an option, a second one after Catalan BB R1b with low coverage and 0 steppe also. No matter, there are more BB samples in German lab, it works much better by sure.

The actual "steppe" came late, with Celtics from Central Europe, nothing new with that.

Send those samples to davidski at eurogenes and he will extract loads of steppe from them. I think his minimum guarantee is15%.

Olympus Mons
05-05-18, 21:00
I Keep on asking because there is no proper answer I ever get here or anywhere, and I guess some of you guys should be able to...

Question is: If Iron gates and nearby locations in Mathieson paper for southeastern europe show that those can be modeled as WHG/EHG (in various proportions), especially noticeable is the the Romanian HG (I2534) that is actually almost half/half but other are something like 80/20.... then why would the same CHG/IranN that went to Steppe, coming into these locations in southeastern europe and mixing with this EHG... would not be "falsely" represented as "steppe"?

Does anyone knows the answer?

Ailchu
05-05-18, 21:39
I Keep on asking because there is no proper answer I ever get here or anywhere, and I guess some of you guys should be able to...

Question is: If Iron gates and nearby locations in Mathieson paper for southeastern europe show that those can be modeled as WHG/EHG (in various proportions), especially noticeable is the the Romanian HG (I2534) that is actually almost half/half but other are something like 80/20.... then why would the same CHG/IranN that went to Steppe, coming into these locations in southeastern europe and mixing with this EHG... would not be "falsely" represented as "steppe"?

Does anyone knows the answer?

also had the same question in other threads. the paper that looked at myceneans also tried to model them with populations from armenia and not yamnas so i think there is a certain uncertainty about this.

Olympus Mons
05-05-18, 23:40
also had the same question in other threads. the paper that looked at myceneans also tried to model them with populations from armenia and not yamnas so i think there is a certain uncertainty about this.
Yes. But armenians wont cut it.
Local romenia/Bulgaria 5th millenium will. :)

CrazyDonkey
06-05-18, 01:09
you say: Mt-dna wouldn't show it, because the invaders/migrants were mostly males who married/interbred with local females."
wow! females mated R1b blonde and musculated warriors and daughters didnt get any steppe fraction in autosomes!
Just wondering what does steppitis. :laughing:

I said nothing about autosomal DNA. Since when is auDNA part of mtDNA?

berun
06-05-18, 13:03
The paper section refered and my post was about autosomal results, you might know.

MOESAN
11-05-18, 20:45
it's the problem of admixture and complicated modelings and fst distances and all this stuff I don't master ; what certainty?
maybe IBD approach could tell us more?

berun
11-09-18, 11:03
THE GENETIC HISTORY OF EL ARGAR AND CONTEMPORANEOUS GROUPS OF THE SOUTHERN IBERIAN
PENINSULA
Author(s): Haak, Wolfgang (Max-Planck-Institute for the Science of Human History) - Rihuete-Herrada, Cristina - Oliart, Camila - Fregeiro
Morador, Maria-Inés - Lull, Vicente - Micó, Rafael - García Atiénzar, Gabriel - Barciela, Virginia - Hernández, Mauro - Jiménez
Echevarría, Javier - Salazar-García, Domingo C. - Risch, Roberto - Krause, Johannes (-)
Presentation Format: Oral
The unique position of the El Argar society in Iberia’s Early Bronze Age is well attested by archaeological research. Recent paleo-genomic studies have shed light on the genetic prehistory of the Iberian Peninsula, mainly focussing on the Mesolithic and Neolithic periods. However, the biological profiles of prehistoric individuals attributed to the El Argar and contemporaneous groups from the southern coastal regions of the peninsula have not yet been described genetically. Here, we present genome-wide data from over 70 individuals from a micro-transect through time ranging from the Late Chalcolithic to the Late Bronze Age. We observe a striking shift in the ancestry profile from the Chalcolithic to the Early Bronze Age, which is explained by the arrival of steppe ancestry in this region. The particular type of ancestry was first described in pastoralist groups from the Eurasian steppes around 5000 years ago and has subsequently spread across central and western Europe, reaching northern France and the British Isles around 2200 calBCE, where it replaced substantial parts of the local genetic ancestry. Our results show that steppe ancestry can be found in very few individuals attributed to the Bell Beaker phenomenon in the centre and north of Iberia, but in all individuals dated to El Argar and subsequent Bronze Age periods in the south. This finding not only corroborates the transformative powers of the Early Bronze Age period in the Iberian Peninsula but show that the genetic profiles of the populations in Iberia today were largely shaped during this time.

As it will pop up sometime a biorxiv doc about the case let's do some spoiler for the waiting-bored: they have tested some 100 individuals of the Bronze Age all over the Iberian Peninsula (well, in the map Fuente Celada appears near Barcelona but it's in Central Spain), from such 100 people only 50 samples were good enough to provide profitable info: all males (some 25) were R1b, and for autosomals, they found a 5% steppe component in Neolithic samples, some 40% in BB decreasing as time went on (the most recent samples, those of Late Bronze Age samples of Minorca diplay some 20%, as do actual Spaniards).

Well, if I got the state-of-the-art situation, from somewhere south of the Caucasus spread the CHG component to the steppe and Yamnaya, the males were all R1b-Z2103 (or older clades) and mixed there with EHG blondies, no L51, no R1a; then, without any archaeological evidence, they went north to stablish the CWC, which were all R1a; then from SW Iberian peninsula expanded the BB culture with no DNA but it was mastered fully in an unknown place by CWC people (all being R1b-L51 there otherwise and with less steppe), thereafter such L51 people expanded all over West Europe, reaching the Iberian Peninsula whitout any archaeological evidence and where many lost there their IE language by unkown reasons for a Vasconic-like one... and also loosing their steppe component quickly by vampire local women as three papers didn't find out such component except if running supervised admixtures. I suppose I'm not smart enough to catch all it and accept willingly this scenario...

bicicleur
11-09-18, 11:41
As it will pop up sometime a biorxiv doc about the case let's do some spoiler for the waiting-bored: they have tested some 100 individuals of the Bronze Age all over the Iberian Peninsula (well, in the map Fuente Celada appears near Barcelona but it's in Central Spain), from such 100 people only 50 samples were good enough to provide profitable info: all males (some 25) were R1b, and for autosomals, they found a 5% steppe component in Neolithic samples, some 40% in BB decreasing as time went on (the most recent samples, those of Late Bronze Age samples of Minorca diplay some 20%, as do actual Spaniards).

Well, if I got the state-of-the-art situation, from somewhere south of the Caucasus spread the CHG component to the steppe and Yamnaya, the males were all R1b-Z2103 (or older clades) and mixed there with EHG blondies, no L51, no R1a; then, without any archaeological evidence, they went north to stablish the CWC, which were all R1a; then from SW Iberian peninsula expanded the BB culture with no DNA but it was mastered fully in an unknown place by CWC people (all being R1b-L51 there otherwise and with less steppe), thereafter such L51 people expanded all over West Europe, reaching the Iberian Peninsula whitout any archaeological evidence and where many lost there their IE language by unkown reasons for a Vasconic-like one... and also loosing their steppe component quickly by vampire local women as three papers didn't find out such component except if running supervised admixtures. I suppose I'm not smart enough to catch all it and accept willingly this scenario...

when is this study due for publication?
do they mention the subclades of R1b in EBA Iberia?

berun
11-09-18, 13:47
some 2-3 years
all U106

berun
11-09-18, 13:48
just kidding :)

their next work is to check subclades, hum.