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Angela
22-11-17, 21:00
This is from a poster of a recently presented paper by C. Eduardo Amorim

See:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sgvuxv3h2p09aju/poster_hinxton.pdf?dl=0

This is another one where I'm going to need the actual paper to figure out what's going on.

Did they find that the Langobard samples from Hungary already included samples much like Finns and other far north and northeastern Europeans and also ones that were already very "Italian like". One of those Hungary samples lands practically on my head going by it's placement on the map of Italian variation.

Is the exact same thing true for the samples found in the Lombard sample in western Piemonte?

As to the former I suppose it makes sense as a sign that the Langobards mixed with still very EEF like populations in Iron Age Hungary.

However, if that's the case, then how can any estimates be made of how much impact the Langobards had on northern and Central Italian genetics?

9459

Also, what do they mean about all these CEU samples in northern Italy. Didn't they use anything other than 1000 genomes? What they may be picking up is "Celtic" samples from the Celtic migrations into Northern Italy that first arrived around 400 BC.

Also, what place and time period does that lone "Roman" sample come from? It seems to place at the meeting point between Spanish and Northern Italian populations. "Roman" meant different things at different time periods. Is it a local sample from Piemonte from the same time as the Langobard settlement?

Any insights would be greatly appreciated.

Also, if you can get bigger and clearer pictures of the various graphics in the poster that would be great.

Pax Augusta
22-11-17, 21:55
This is from a poster of a recently presented paper by C. Eduardo Amorim

See:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sgvuxv3h2p09aju/poster_hinxton.pdf?dl=0

This is another one where I'm going to need the actual paper to figure out what's going on.

Did they find that the Langobard samples from Hungary already included samples much like Finns and other far north and northeastern Europeans and also ones that were already very "Italian like". One of those Hungary samples lands practically on my head going by it's placement on the map of Italian variation.

Is the exact same thing true for the samples found in the Lombard sample in western Piemonte?

As to the former I suppose it makes sense as a sign that the Langobards mixed with still very EEF like populations in Iron Age Hungary.

However, if that's the case, then how can any estimates be made of how much impact the Langobards had on northern and Central Italian genetics?

9459

Also, what do they mean about all these CEU samples in northern Italy. Didn't they use anything other than 1000 genomes? What they may be picking up is "Celtic" samples from the Celtic migrations into Northern Italy that first arrived around 400 BC.

Also, what place and time period does that lone "Roman" sample come from? It seems to place at the meeting point between Spanish and Northern Italian populations. "Roman" meant different things at different time periods. Is it a local sample from Piemonte from the same time as the Langobard settlement?

Any insights would be greatly appreciated.

Also, if you can get bigger and clearer pictures of the various graphics in the poster that would be great.

What is SK in the PCA? Roman with southern French or north-western Italians?

Angela
22-11-17, 22:38
What is SK in the PCA? Roman with southern French? Oh, right. Eduardo Amorim sounds so Atlantic facade.

No, it means Slovakia. That's a sample which somehow was labeled Slovakian in the original Novembre study, I think, but clearly is not. It's been wrong ever since. Novembre would have to be the one to correct the PCA by removing it. Just ignore it. They're just using it to plot the ancient samples on a broadly European dataset.

Do you have any idea what's going on with those samples?

If this was a thread about Levantine samples found in Southern Italy there would be 100 posts by now! :)

Bollox79
23-11-17, 04:54
Any Y-DNA results with these samples???

bicicleur
23-11-17, 09:57
is the TSI component also the result of import from Hungary to Italy, or is this 3-component model to simple to make a differentiation?

Promenade
23-11-17, 12:07
Are these all from the same era? If so it's clear this was no longer a homogenous population by the time they came to Italy and the same can be applied to the Roman sample as a Roman at that time could refer to anyone from Britian to the Levant. I'm guessing we'd see the same thing for the Avars since these two look essentially like Slavs, these weren't homogenous tribes but multi ethnic confederations varying similarly as the Roman Empire did.

Angela
23-11-17, 14:36
is the TSI component also the result of import from Hungary to Italy, or is this 3-component model to simple to make a differentiation?

I have no idea, really, since all I know is what's on the poster to which I linked, and I can't even make out some of the graphs.

I doubt there were any Tuscans in Pannonia, though, so I have a feeling perhaps it's that people pretty similar to modern Tuscans were still living in Pannonia all the way into the post Roman era? Perhaps it's like the fact that Globular Amphora people were pretty close to modern Tuscans, or Spain Chalcolithic?

This may be a problem having to do with only using 1000 genomes populations. That's how they wound up with CEU people in Italy too.

@Bollox,
I don't know

@Promenade,
I don't know. This is becoming a theme, isn't it? :) It would seem so to me. I mean, it makes sense for the Italian cemetery, but some of those samples are clearly labeled as coming from the cemetery in present day Hungary.

I think we'll have to wait for the paper, but it certainly is intriguing.

Bollox79
25-11-17, 16:00
Angela,

Looks like an earlier paper was done on the same population? Or is it the same paper? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25369022

Angela
25-11-17, 16:31
Angela,

Looks like an earlier paper was done on the same population? Or is it the same paper? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25369022

I think it's a new paper. The same group has been studying those samples forever. They're slow as molasses in January, almost as bad as the group in Bolzano working on Otzi.

Sile
25-11-17, 17:36
Angela,

Looks like an earlier paper was done on the same population? Or is it the same paper? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25369022


2014 paper....link below is the full paper


http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0110793

Wonomyro
25-11-17, 18:42
Could this be helpful:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Romance

Angela
25-11-17, 19:21
Could this be helpful:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Romance

How interesting. I knew nothing of this culture.

I wonder if it's indeed possible that the Lombards, who seem to have originally been a very northern even northeastern group could have absorbed these people while in Pannonia?

The red marker is Szolad, the Lombard settlement. Look how close it is to Keszthely to its west.

Click to enlarge.
9462

I wonder if the dates match, though?

Well, I did say one of those Szolad samples lands virtually on my head. :)

Wonomyro
25-11-17, 20:29
How interesting. I knew nothing of this culture.

I wonder if it's indeed possible that the Lombards, who seem to have originally been a very northern even northeastern group could have absorbed these people while in Pannonia?

The red marker is Szolad, the Lombard settlement. Look how close it is to Keszthely to its west.

Click to enlarge.


I wonder if the dates match, though?

Well, I did say one of those Szolad samples lands virtually on my head. :)

I can imagine that Langobards picked most of romanized locals from Panonia and Noricum to repopulate northern Italy:


Following this victory, Alboin decided to lead his people to Italy, which had become severely depopulated and devastated after the long Gothic War (535–554) between the Byzantine Empire and the Ostrogothic Kingdom there.

Such scenario could fairly explain the PCA plot. After most of the Panonian Romans fled to Italy, Slavs from Slovakia and Ukraine repopulated the deserted land.

These Keszthely people were the Roman survivors in Panonia:


Under the Avars, the Roman castle of Fenékpuszta near Keszthely and the surroundings were not occupied, so the original Romanized inhabitants lived on undisturbed. They paid food and artisan goods for peace from the Avars. After 568 new Christian Romanized Pannonians arrived here, probably from the destroyed Aquincum (modern Budapest).

Angela
26-11-17, 02:50
I can imagine that Langobards picked most of romanized locals from Panonia and Noricum to repopulate northern Italy:



Such scenario could fairly explain the PCA plot. After most of the Panonian Romans fled to Italy, Slavs from Slovakia and Ukraine repopulated the deserted land.

These Keszthely people were the Roman survivors in Panonia:

Personally, I no longer take what the ancient authors say all that literally any more. Genetics has already proved them wrong a lot of times. So often, annals in the past were just to inflate the ego of the general or leader. The same thing happened with the Ligures. If you were to believe the Roman reports, all the Apuani were either exterminated or exiled to Sabine lands. Meanwhile , there's no sign of them there, and the mountains of Liguria are full of signs that they fled there and returned later.

In regard to the Lombards, in particular, according to isotope analysis in the first paper by this group they spent only one generation in Pannonia. I don't think there was any triumphant conquest going on: these people were stressed physically, especially the children.

"The child mortality rate of 22.7% exhibited by the age group infans I (0–6 y.) appears higher than that of contemporaneous cemeteries in south-western Germany [26] (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4219681/#pone.0110793-Lohrke1), for instance, but may be a reflection of different burial customs. While the risk of contracting infection and complications generally increases at the end of the nursing period due to the introduction of solid food, many active periosteal lesions of children at Szólád point to additional chronic infectious and deficiency diseases or anaemia which led to a number of infant deaths. Because these findings primarily occur among children with Sr isotope ratios in range II, who, we assume, were born at Szólád, the increased child mortality rate is unlikely to have been caused by a mobile lifestyle. Malnourishment, however, due to the fact that the farming economy had not yet been fully established in the new place of residence, could possibly explain the phenomenon. Both the rich offerings of weaponry in some of the male burials and the recurring evidence of interpersonal violence point to the difficult political situation during the Migration Period."

It looks more like a stop to regroup and gather strength to me, although it's clear the elites had rich grave goods.

"An initial patrilocal group with narrower male but wider female Sr isotope distribution settled at Szólád, whilst the majority of subadults represented in the cemetery yielded a distinct Sr isotope signature. Owing to the virtual absence of Szólád-born adults in the cemetery, we may conclude that the settlement was abandoned after approx. one generation.

I think we're probably looking at a situation where a group of marauding males from far northern Europe picked up women along the way, creating a group with a very wide assortment of mtDna. Poor women, they weren't treated very well. They seem to have been knocked around and to have not had the same diet as the elite males.
" Sex-specific patterns point to social inequality as reflected in the men's preferred access to animal-derived foodstuffs. This is especially remarkable among the well-furnished burials, which probably represent higher social ranks. The collagen stable isotope data do not point to an extensive consumption of freshwater fish, which would have been readily available from Lake Balaton nearby. Whilst further confirmation could be obtained from sulphur isotope data [66] (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4219681/#pone.0110793-Nehlich1), [94] (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4219681/#pone.0110793-Nehlich2), this observation supports the notion that the community had not long arrived in the locality and suggests that they adhered to the sociocultural traditions that had previously been established in areas where fish was less readily available."

Once the paper is released we'll know more, as we can check whether the samples from Hungary with the "CEU" autosomal signature and the "Southern" signature are often women. If the elite males also had varied autosomal signatures we'll know whether they incorporated men from the areas through which they traveled too.

"They have yielded evidence of funerary customs and characteristics of material culture that are comparable to those in the surrounding areas and the regions around the postulated route of migration. This has raised questions and hypotheses regarding the identification and social structure of the Lombards as well as the impact of residential relocation. Despite snippets of information from written records and archaeological evidence it still remains unclear whether any migrations of larger groups took place, or whether the sources were biased by military interests and thus possibly exaggerated the role played by mass movement.:"

"The biological evidence suggests that the residents of Szólád were not a close reproductive community. This is in agreement with the notion of a partnership of convenience that resembled Germanic tribe formations with people of different cultural backgrounds maintaining regular contact with other contemporary gentes. Influence from several different European regions is supported archaeologically by the grave constructions that included ledge graves and graves with straight walls, some of which were surrounded by rectangular or circular ditches. The stylistic analysis of the grave goods, such as brooches and weaponry, revealed parallels to south-western and central Germany, Moravia and the middle Danube as well as to Italy. The latter also indicates the possible presence of members of the Roman population of Pannonia, who had settled the area prior to the Lombard period. "

That reminds me...The use of the word "Romanized" for this Hungarian group gives the impression that they are local people who were just Romanized as to culture. However, take a look at where some of the "Szolad" samples land in Italy. Some of them are very far south. Either this was a refuge area for people who were still largely EEF, or there was a lot of Roman colonization around there.

davef
26-11-17, 06:28
We do have the modern equivalent of those ancient authors you no longer trust; they're the anthro-forum t-rolls and nationalistic blogging nutcases (eurogenes, anyone?).

bicicleur
26-11-17, 09:56
We do have the modern equivalent of those ancient authors you no longer trust; they're the anthro-forum t-rolls and nationalistic blogging nutcases (eurogenes, anyone?).

why only them? they are just a few marginals
we have the climate lobby
we have political correctness

there is fake news and self-declared experts everywhere, also in accepted mainstream and also in traditional media

bicicleur
26-11-17, 10:03
Could this be helpful:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Romance

it there some historical connection between these guys and Noricum?

srdceleva
26-11-17, 10:54
No, it means Slovakia. That's a sample which somehow was labeled Slovakian in the original Novembre study, I think, but clearly is not. It's been wrong ever since. Novembre would have to be the one to correct the PCA by removing it. Just ignore it. They're just using it to plot the ancient samples on a broadly European dataset.

Do you have any idea what's going on with those samples?

If this was a thread about Levantine samples found in Southern Italy there would be 100 posts by now! :)The Slovakian sample was from a slovak Jewish guy. It was corrected later by the authors. Real slovaks placed a bit nore north east than czechs

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

Wonomyro
26-11-17, 12:54
it there some historical connection between these guys and Noricum? Yes, they were two neigbouring Roman provinces:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/Roman_provinces_of_Illyricum%2C_Macedonia%2C_Dacia %2C_Moesia%2C_Pannonia_and_Thracia.jpg

This too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hallstatt_LaTene.png

Wonomyro
26-11-17, 13:05
That reminds me...The use of the word "Romanized" for this Hungarian group gives the impression that they are local people who were just Romanized as to culture. However, take a look at where some of the "Szolad" samples land in Italy. Some of them are very far south. Either this was a refuge area for people who were still largely EEF, or there was a lot of Roman colonization around there.

They seem to represent Roman Empire average. The question is were there also any indigenous Panonians or Dalmatians among them.

If yes, which of the circles could belong to them or be the closest match?

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9459

davef
26-11-17, 14:58
why only them? they are just a few marginals
we have the climate lobby
we have political correctness

there is fake news and self-declared experts everywhere, also in accepted mainstream and also in traditional media

Why only them? I wasn't saying they're the only equivalents. It was just a joke post not to be taken seriously and I wanted to choose a group relevant to anthro forums.

Angela
26-11-17, 17:06
They seem to represent Roman Empire average. The question is were there also any indigenous Panonians or Dalmatians among them.

If yes, which of the circles could belong to them or be the closest match?

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9459

I don't think there was any "Roman average". We have "gladiator" or "soldier" samples from the Roman era in Britain, and they're pretty similar to modern day Brits and Dutch, Belgian, and northern French people. The one "outlier" is clearly from either the Levant or Arabia.

In some areas you do have Roman colonies of veterans, so you would get some admixture, but after a hundred years the signature would start to wash out because of intermarriage with the much larger surrounding population. Anyway, there don't seem to be very many in Pannonia, at least not in the second century, so that part of my speculation upthread is probably wrong.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Romancoloniae.jpg


I think it's far more likely that these "Italian" plotting people are the "native" people of the area. This was densely populated EEF territory. There wasn't the large effect from the Indo-European migrations that we see further north in Europe. Remember the results in Mathiesen et al, where even in the Iron Age the "steppe" component in most of the samples was about 10%, and some of the samples also looked quite "Tuscan" like. Let's not forget that the GAC had many of the hall marks of an Indo-European culture, but they were just MN European farmers genetically. Language change apparently took more, but 10-20% seems to have been enough.

The closest ancient population to modern Italians is often the Hungarian Bronze Age, which also isn't very "steppe". Actually, a lot of this is starting to fall into place for me.

As for the "CEU" type samples, I'm not sure why the authors are surprised. The area had experienced its own "Celtic" migrations, similar to what had happened in Northern Italy and all the way down to Rome. I would think there might be "Celtic" settlements, as there was a "Lombard" one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonia

Sile
26-11-17, 17:29
2014 paper....link below is the full paper
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0110793
from Pannonia to Italy
http://real.mtak.hu/37597/1/The_Lombards_move_to_into_Italy_Posan_La.pdf

..

..

about Gepids
The Gepids (Latin: Gepidae, Gipedae) were an East Germanic tribe. They were closely related to, or a subdivision of, the Goths.

Sile
26-11-17, 17:37
roman empire based prior to 400AD , before Lombard, Gepid or Avar invasion.
Diocese ( provinces ) split by ethnic race by Roman standards....................note that the Dacians escaped from their homeland in Romania to seek refuge south of the Danube river.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diocese_of_Pannonia#/media/File:Illyricum_%26_Dacia_-_AD_400.png

bicicleur
26-11-17, 18:49
I don't think there was any "Roman average". We have "gladiator" or "soldier" samples from the Roman era in Britain, and they're pretty similar to modern day Brits and Dutch, Belgian, and northern French people. The one "outlier" is clearly from either the Levant or Arabia.
In some areas you do have Roman colonies of veterans, so you would get some admixture, but after a hundred years the signature would start to wash out because of intermarriage with the much larger surrounding population. Anyway, there don't seem to be very many in Pannonia, at least not in the second century, so that part of my speculation upthread is probably wrong.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Romancoloniae.jpg
I think it's far more likely that these "Italian" plotting people are the "native" people of the area. This was densely populated EEF territory. There wasn't the large effect from the Indo-European migrations that we see further north in Europe. Remember the results in Mathiesen et al, where even in the Iron Age the "steppe" component in most of the samples was about 10%, and some of the samples also looked quite "Tuscan" like. Let's not forget that the GAC had many of the hall marks of an Indo-European culture, but they were just MN European farmers genetically. Language change apparently took more, but 10-20% seems to have been enough.
The closest ancient population to modern Italians is often the Hungarian Bronze Age, which also isn't very "steppe". Actually, a lot of this is starting to fall into place for me.
As for the "CEU" type samples, I'm not sure why the authors are surprised. The area had experienced its own "Celtic" migrations, similar to what had happened in Northern Italy and all the way down to Rome. I would think there might be "Celtic" settlements, as there was a "Lombard" one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonia
you shouldn't overestimate these colonies

e.g. the Roman impact in Belgium was limited to the fertile loess plateaus, just south of the road between Cologne and Calais
and yes, probably populated mainly by veterans, the Romans themselves didn't like so much coming to these areas

I see many blanc spaces on the map

Ygorcs
26-11-17, 18:56
Inoffensive newbie question: before the Romanization of Pannonia, do we really know the ethnic composition of those lands? Were they overwhelmingly Celtic, or perhaps Balto-Slavic tribes were already present on the margins? Did Illyrians settle as north as present-day Hungary or did they basically "stop" at the highlands of Croatia and Slovenia?

Angela
26-11-17, 19:02
you shouldn't overestimate these colonies

e.g. the Roman impact in Belgium was limited to the fertile loess plateaus, just south of the road between Cologne and Calais
and yes, probably populated mainly by veterans, the Romans themselves didn't like so much coming to these areas

I see many blanc spaces on the map

That's what I said, Bicicleur. Residents of "Italia" at that time didn't migrate to those areas. It was colonies of veterans who had been granted land at the end of their long years of service. These weren't big folk migrations, and at the end of a hundred or two hundred years those people would have admixed and blended, although leaving behind perhaps some uniparental dna.

Angela
26-11-17, 20:41
Inoffensive newbie question: before the Romanization of Pannonia, do we really know the ethnic composition of those lands? Were they overwhelmingly Celtic, or perhaps Balto-Slavic tribes were already present on the margins? Did Illyrians settle as north as present-day Hungary or did they basically "stop" at the highlands of Croatia and Slovenia?


The only thing we can go by are ancient samples and we need more of them.

However, we know, for example, that this was EEF central during the Neolithic.

We know what Early Neolithic Hungary looked like...they were more southeastern than the Sardinians
See:Gamba et al


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xPGV13M4lSM/VEaknJoP-jI/AAAAAAAAJ0I/XmX-S48tr2A/s1600/ncomms6257-f2.jpg

Then it was a Linear Pottery area...

Look at the yDna...
http://s2.postimg.org/zebg23dw9/Y_DNA_8_do_5_kya.png"
Mesolithic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesolithic) sites are rare, but start to appear after systematic surveys (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeological_field_survey), especially in the Jászság (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A1szs%C3%A1g) area (Latin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin)Jazygia) in northern Hungary (Jászberény I (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=J%C3%A1szber%C3%A9ny_I&action=edit&redlink=1)). Neolithic settlement begins with the Criş Körös culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star%C4%8Devo_culture), carbon-dated to around 6200 BC. The Middle Neolithic sees the Western Linear Pottery (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Pottery_Culture) culture in Transdanubia and Satu-Mare (Szatmar) and Eastern Linear pottery (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eastern_Linear_pottery&action=edit&redlink=1) (called "Alföld Linear Pottery" in Hungary) in the East, developing into Želiezovce (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeliezovce) (Slovakia) and Szakálhát (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Szak%C3%A1lh%C3%A1t&action=edit&redlink=1) and Bükk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%BCkk), respectively. The Late Neolithic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic) Tisza culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tisza_culture) is followed by the Eneolithic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalcolithic) Tiszapolgár (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiszapolg%C3%A1r) and Bodrogkeresztúr (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodrogkereszt%C3%BAr) cultures.We can then move on to Baden, which is Chalcolithic or Copper Age. Gimbutas was sure that they were an Indo-European group, as Anthony was sure Remedello was Indo-European. However, although there was some steppe influence in Baden, they were still mostly Late Neolithic farmer, which across Europe averaged out at about 75% AN and 25% WHG.

Take a look at the Haak PCA below. Click and it will expand a lot. The modern populations on which the samples land are also labelled.

The Neolithic samples from Hungary are labeled Gamba EN. They plot with Sardinians, who are the "Mediterranean" cluster in a lot of calculators. Baden is labeled Gamba CA or Copper Age. It's still just west of modern day Sardinians. You can see the Bronze Age samples are somewhat French like. Again, these are eilte samples. Only in Gamba IA or Iron Age do we get a really "Northern" sample. I doubt that this was the autosomal signature of the majority of the locals.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-f-kkQdPqKmE/VN2QquPvw8I/AAAAAAAAC5A/6NFEE9Edboo/s1600/HaakPCA.png

Go to this link to enlarge it even more.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-f-kkQdPqKmE/VN2QquPvw8I/AAAAAAAAC5A/6NFEE9Edboo/s1600/HaakPCA.png

I think that in the past people assumed that if a group spoke an Indo-European language then they were some sort of "pure" Indo European. We know now that's not the case.

I'd have to go back and read the paper carefully to get the date of that Iron Age sample. At any rate, in the Balkans the Iron Age sample was even less "steppe" than the Bronze Age samples. In the last few centuries of the first millennium BC, which is also Iron Age, you have the Celts moving in, as happened in Italy.

Later on in history, of course, you have the Magyars, who seem to have left little genetic trace but did change the language, and then lots of movement from Germanic peoples to the west.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hungary_before_the_Hungarian_Conquest

This is from the Mycenaean paper. Look at how far "south" some of the Europe Late Neolithic/Bronze Age people plot.



Also, go take a look at page ten of the Mathiesen paper. The "ethnic" breakdown of the samples can be found there. https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/05/09/135616.full.pdfhttp://i.imgur.com/H0lwXeD.png

Wonomyro
26-11-17, 21:29
This could be helpful too. Dalmatian Bronze age women from Jazinka Cave plots in the middle of present day Bulgarian cluster:

9464

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303044230_Preliminary_results_of_a_prehistoric_hum an_ancient_DNA_time_series_from_coastal_and_hinter land_Croatia

Jovialis
27-11-17, 01:51
Also, if you can get bigger and clearer pictures of the various graphics in the poster that would be great.

https://i.imgur.com/cJJeWZI.png

https://i.imgur.com/kFZtvb1.png

https://i.imgur.com/bNj82Cc.png

https://i.imgur.com/FFubFj4.png

https://i.imgur.com/q2UrK0L.png

https://i.imgur.com/mMR1hE1.png

https://i.imgur.com/uGBjLGp.png

Angela
27-11-17, 20:47
^^Thanks Jovialis, I appreciate it.

When the paper is published I may find out this is all wrong, but it looks to me based on the admixture analysis in that poster that the Lombards brought a lot of Northwestern and Tuscan looking people (in terms of genotype) with them to Italy.

I have no idea why they would have used only 1000 genomes for comparisons. For goodness' sakes, why didn't they compare to ancient samples?

Pax Augusta
28-11-17, 03:03
^^Thanks Jovialis, I appreciate it.

When the paper is published I may find out this is all wrong, but it looks to me based on the admixture analysis in that poster that the Lombards brought a lot of Northwestern and Tuscan looking people (in terms of genotype) with them to Italy.

I have no idea why they would have used only 1000 genomes for comparisons. For goodness' sakes, why didn't they compare to ancient samples?

They use only 1000 genomes for comparisons because it's cheap and has no cost. But 1000 genomes also have a limited number of populations.

Unfortunately most of the studies are very low budget.

alexfritz
17-12-17, 04:31
the nomadic tribes of the migration-era all have their own structure and dynamic with the longobards being unique in possessing a certain class with arms-bearing[warrior] and land-owning rights with the 'arimanni' as truly reflected in the tombs of szolad/collegno yet an important feature of szolad/collegno is also that both NEA/SEA (germanic-lombards/roman-provincials) did intermix with each other as by family-f[collegno] and family-c[szolad] and other burials; paulus diaconus mentioned noricans and pannonians as part of the trek and indeed amorim et al per sr-isotope determines all of the same trek 'migrate together' and in an upcoming/published paper on the alamanni burial of niederstotzingen a further feature is revealed in that roman-provincials (PCA akin to amorim et al pannonians/noricans and modern south-europeans) in alamanni society even possessed the right to bear arms as revealed by 'reihengrab' grave-3 [2/3 SEA 1/3 NEA one a native[raetian] and the other a non native per sr-isotope];

mlukas
18-12-17, 02:05
They use only 1000 genomes for comparisons because it's cheap and has no cost. But 1000 genomes also have a limited number of populations.

Unfortunately most of the studies are very low budget.
I have on my disk many free public datasets with ancients. It's not the explanation. They have some agenda rather, why they use only 1000 genomes data.

Zanatis
18-12-17, 04:35
I have no idea, really, since all I know is what's on the poster to which I linked, and I can't even make out some of the graphs. I doubt there were any Tuscans in Pannonia, though, so I have a feeling perhaps it's that people pretty similar to modern Tuscans were still living in Pannonia all the way into the post Roman era? Perhaps it's like the fact that Globular Amphora people were pretty close to modern Tuscans, or Spain Chalcolithic? This may be a problem having to do with only using 1000 genomes populations. That's how they wound up with CEU people in Italy too.
Sorry for bringing this up only now, but I don't think it's strange the fact that Pannonians were similar to Tuscans since they were mostly Illyrians after all.

Having said that, aren't Albanians similar to Tuscans?

I know some will be rightfully suspicious/cautious of such a connection due to the distance between Albania and Pannonia, but to anticipate that I'd like to add that the Northernmost Albanian settlements (modern Serbia) aren't that far from Pannonia, in addition to the fact that they were continuously pushed further South during the centuries.

I don't think it's that far-fetched as an explanation.

Angela
18-12-17, 05:12
Sorry for bringing this up only now, but I don't think it's strange the fact that Pannonians were similar to Tuscans since they were mostly Illyrians after all.

Having said that, aren't Albanians similar to Tuscans?

I know some will be rightfully suspicious/cautious of such a connection due to the distance between Albania and Pannonia, but to anticipate that I'd like to add that the Northernmost Albanian settlements (modern Serbia) aren't that far from Pannonia, in addition to the fact that they were continuously pushed further South during the centuries.

I don't think it's that far-fetched as an explanation.

On PCAs, Albanians plot like "eastern shifted" Tuscans. Perhaps we have two very EEF like populations, but one was a bit impacted by northeastern populations at later periods, and one more by northwestern populations. Of course, that's a very big simplification.

If there are no Albanian samples in a calculator, some Albanians get Tuscans as the first population, but of course at a much longer genetic distance than Tuscans would get.

I just think it's interesting how way into the Iron Age we have a quite "Tuscan like" Thracian, and now, perhaps, some "Tuscan like" people in Pannonia. I think some people expected populations in Europe to be pretty homogeneous by the Iron Age, and certainly by the Migration Period, but it doesn't seem the case.

So a lot of commentary to the effect, for example, that Central European genetics was pretty much set by the Bronze Age would actually be incorrect.

Ygorcs
18-12-17, 05:34
In my opinion, the hypothesis that Albanians are actually descendants of an offshoot of Daco-Thracians from around present-day Serbia is quite likely (in the sense of "worhy of further research and discussion"). If Albanians are connected with Dacians, then there is also a high possibility that Albanian-like tribes existed in eastern Pannonia near the Carpathians, where Dacians existed historically and possibly also descended to the lower hillfoots.

Zanatis
18-12-17, 07:55
On PCAs, Albanians plot like "eastern shifted" Tuscans. Perhaps we have two very EEF like populations, but one was a bit impacted by northeastern populations at later periods, and one more by northwestern populations. Of course, that's a very big simplification.

If there are no Albanian samples in a calculator, some Albanians get Tuscans as the first population, but of course at a much longer genetic distance than Tuscans would get.

I just think it's interesting how way into the Iron Age we have a quite "Tuscan like" Thracian, and now, perhaps, some "Tuscan like" people in Pannonia. I think some people expected populations in Europe to be pretty homogeneous by the Iron Age, and certainly by the Migration Period, but it doesn't seem the case.

So a lot of commentary to the effect, for example, that Central European genetics was pretty much set by the Bronze Age would actually be incorrect.
Well, it makes sense.

Could it be that the later Celtic admixture made the Pannonians more Tuscan-like than Albanians? After all, both Pannonia and Po Valley experienced the Celtic expansion/migration so we could have had the case of 2 very similar populations influenced by the same wave, producing again a similar result in the end.

But as always, waiting is the answer.


In my opinion, the hypothesis that Albanians are actually descendants of an offshoot of Daco-Thracians from around present-day Serbia is quite likely (in the sense of "worhy of further research and discussion"). If Albanians are connected with Dacians, then there is also a high possibility that Albanian-like tribes existed in eastern Pannonia near the Carpathians, where Dacians existed historically and possibly also descended to the lower hillfoots.
Don't go there bro. The wolves are waiting at the door. Then Albanians will get defensive and involved, followed by a series of infractions and a closed thread.

Pax Augusta
18-12-17, 08:26
I have on my disk many free public datasets with ancients. It's not the explanation. They have some agenda rather, why they use only 1000 genomes data.

This can be true for any study though, peer-reviewed or not peer-reviewed.

Jovialis
18-12-17, 15:28
I have on my disk many free public datasets with ancients. It's not the explanation. They have some agenda rather, why they use only 1000 genomes data.
Just because it's free to the public, doesn't mean you can use it for "commercial purposes", i.e. publishing it to an academic journal, receive compensation. You would probably have to procure the use of it first.


https://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/public-domain/welcome/
The term “public domain” refers to creative materials that are not protected by intellectual property laws such as copyright, trademark, or patent laws. The public owns these works, not an individual author or artist. Anyone can use a public domain work without obtaining permission, but no one can ever own it.

An important wrinkle to understand about public domain material is that, while each work belongs to the public, collections of public domain works may be protected by copyright. If, for example, someone has collected public domain images in a book or on a website, the collection as a whole may be protectable even though individual images are not. You are free to copy and use individual images but copying and distributing the complete collection may infringe what is known as the “collective works” copyright. Collections of public domain material will be protected if the person who created it has used creativity in the choices and organization of the public domain material. This usually involves some unique selection process, for example, a poetry scholar compiling a book—The Greatest Poems of e.e. cummings.

mlukas
18-12-17, 17:10
Just because it's free to the public, doesn't mean you can use it for "commercial purposes", i.e. publishing it to an academic journal, receive compensation. You would probably have to procure the use of it first.

I'm not sure if they earn something from publication. Those days usually YOU must pay to the journal for acceptation of paper, for example 500 $, and there are poor-quality journals from India or Africa.

Jovialis
18-12-17, 17:26
I'm not sure if they earn something from publication. Those days usually YOU must pay to the journal for acceptation of paper, for example 500 $, and there are poor-quality journals from India or Africa.
The fact remains that someone is making a profit from it.

Kiltie
01-07-19, 18:22
Do we have haplogroups for Lombard DNA? I have a family line (terminal SNP) which is downstream of R-Z43 and Z56. Two samples are UK and five are all Italian surnames and four are in Italy.

torzio
01-07-19, 20:00
Do we have haplogroups for Lombard DNA? I have a family line (terminal SNP) which is downstream of R-Z43 and Z56. Two samples are UK and five are all Italian surnames and four are in Italy.

give us the 4 italian surnames and we will see

italouruguayan
01-07-19, 20:31
Do we have haplogroups for Lombard DNA? I have a family line (terminal SNP) which is downstream of R-Z43 and Z56. Two samples are UK and five are all Italian surnames and four are in Italy.

From what I see, you share a line with other Italians. On the other hand, in group U106 L 44 of the R1b U106 Project I am with British and Germans, and in Yfull I am with a Czech; There are no Italians. But in Anthrogenica I met a man from Bergamo, who has occasionally participated in Eupedia (Sirto), which is also L44. And my family, although it's from Veneto, has a distant origin in the valleys of Bergamo ...