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View Full Version : Entry point for R1b-L21 into the British Isles?



eurogenes
16-12-17, 04:34
I am wondering what route R1b-L21 took from the continent into the Isles.

What modern counties in England (presumably) absorbed the first arrivals carrying R1b-L21?

Ed the Red
30-12-17, 10:09
I'm an enthusiast about this part of history especially. This will be another topic heading soon but there is a long standing myth of the Irish/Scots Gaelic tribes sailing from Spain to the isles. I don't know how much you've researched this but the Scots even included this history in their own claim of Independence from England when Robert the Bruce defeated them at Bannockburn. They wrote to the Pope claiming their independence in 1314 and it has paragraphs that state they travelled from Spain. Since the L-21 is extremely dominant in Ireland and the Scottish Highlands the story really starts to not be just a story but more factual. Since the Scottish and Irish were Gaelic brethren it seems very plausible that they sailed from Spain to Ireland and then spread from Ireland to what is now the western shores of England and Scotland. If you look on this site it will have maps and a description of the settlements. Just look for the history of Y-dna and then choose the R1b haplogroup you will scroll through all the R1b and will find the R1b-L21.

Ed the Red
30-12-17, 10:12
As what counties absorbed it first I can't say but it is now on the fringes of England like wales and only dominant in Ireland and the Highlands of Scotland

Ed the Red
30-12-17, 10:38
So is it more likely that they were in Ireland first and only raided the coasts and didn't penetrate much? Or is it that the oncoming Anglo-Saxons drove them from deep inland to the fringes?
In everything I have read I choose the first explanation, but I am no authority on it.

Eochaidh
30-12-17, 16:42
I am wondering what route R1b-L21 took from the continent into the Isles.

What modern counties in England (presumably) absorbed the first arrivals carrying R1b-L21?
Dr Joe Flood is a mathematician, economist and data analyst. In his pre-print "The phylogenealogy of R-L21: four and a half millennia of expansion and redistribution", he analyzed large sets of data and suggests that L21 arose in the tin mining areas of Cornwall/Devon in the early Bronze Age.


The distributional evidence for a British origin for L21 around 2500 BC is compelling. Most likely the mutation originated in the large Beaker colony in south-west Britain, where many old lineages still survive. From that spread point it was carried rapidly by sea into north-west France, Ireland, north-west Spain and the Middle Rhine, which today have a high incidence of L21, and into Northern England and Scotland. Of about 45 known early Bronze branches or subclades of L21, almost all are found in Britain or in the English-speaking Diaspora. We are able to identify most of the larger subclades of L21 as ‘Atlantic’—spread throughout the Atlantic Beaker range with a distinct presence in Cornwall-Devon in the early Bronze. Continental R-L21 has origins in small random samples from the extensive English distribution. While many studies have tried to identify continental contributions to Isles populations, here we suggest that the reverse was much greater, at least in the early Bronze Age.

The global distribution of L21 subclades is almost exactly Pareto, showing an entirely random expansion from an initial point of time, however that point is much later than the early Bronze. Around 100 BC a second major R-L21 expansion from a severe bottleneck was initiated in Ireland and Scotland, when a dozen residual ‘deep’ sub-branches sprang to life and came to dominate L21.


Two datasets from FTDNA were compiled for the project in this way. A general European ‘origins’ dataset to calculate incidence of L21 and other haplogroups was obtained by combining all the European geographic projects with all the haplotype projects for Europe and eliminating duplicates. To the commercial core was added the databases of a few research studies where these contained L21 typing—which has helped to improve the measures of incidence in Spain and Italy. A total of 27264 records are in this European Origins database.
The second dataset is the L21 database, which is entirely from FTDNA projects with the addition of the 1000 Genomes set (as this has been analysed for subclades of L21). It includes STR markers, and is much more thoroughly cleaned than the European Origins dataset.

MOESAN
30-12-17, 23:04
Thanks Eochaid - very interesting and seemingly sensible -
does your name contain a link with 'horse' in its meaning?

HGMIVL
30-12-17, 23:53
I just had a friend who tested and he came back as R1b-L21. His paternal line and surname is Scottish - although his father says Irish - so I'm keen to learn a little more about this very common line in Britain.

Ed the Red
31-12-17, 07:00
If L-21 did arise originally in Cornwall it would've been from the early megalithic populations of Britain that mixed and caused a hybridization with the waves of oncoming Celts

MOESAN
31-12-17, 15:32
If L-21 did arise originally in Cornwall it would've been from the early megalithic populations of Britain that mixed and caused a hybridization with the waves of oncoming Celts

some months ago I have this thought among others as a possibility - but the anDNA we have recently for Iberia and The Isles seems pointing to a very dominant Y-I2a2 and I2a2 among elites of Megalithers in West, so I think R1b-L21 was rather among the first I-Eans speaking some kind of Occidental I-Ean pre/proto-celtic in first place.

OkTex
31-12-17, 23:58
Dr Joe Flood is a mathematician, economist and data analyst. In his pre-print "The phylogenealogy of R-L21: four and a half millennia of expansion and redistribution", he analyzed large sets of data and suggests that L21 arose in the tin mining areas of Cornwall/Devon in the early Bronze Age.

I'm 8th generation American "mutt"...y Haplo l-1065/fgc10117; Ancestry recently tagged me at 57% Br Isles, 14% W Euro, 10% Irish, Scots, Welch, etc. Ancestry appears to have set its baseline Br Isles from heavily mixed folks in SE England. Maybe that's why I tested out so heavily Brit??

Eochaidh
01-01-18, 06:01
Thanks Eochaid - very interesting and seemingly sensible -
does your name contain a link with 'horse' in its meaning?
Yes, Eochaidh (Owey) was a popular name 1000 years ago. It is derived from something like Eche (Ockey) which means Steed-like and is from the early (not later) Irish for horse and cognate with the Latin Equus.

Jarrodshumway
06-02-18, 05:18
Hello everyone i have been going through troves of info on r1b1a1 L21 and rm269 i havnt had my dna done. this is on my mothers side my great grandparents were J.V. Page and Ruby Bolton two very ancient and noble houses both L21 or so i believe my family was close in 1200's pages were knights and expert longbow archers the boltons made arrows and bows in the war of the black prince