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Northener
27-12-17, 17:38
Hypothesis: from the fifth until eight century AD Friesland was a "Nordic plant". It was some sort of outlier of the Scandinavian world.


The power configuration at that time was according to JAW Nicolay (2006):
https://www.mupload.nl/img/s07b81w.png

Gudme (https://en.natmus.dk/historical-knowledge/denmark/prehistoric-period-until-1050-ad/the-late-iron-age/gudme-gold-gods-and-people/)(with star) in Denmark was that days power center (of the North).


This is partly based on the Scandic bracteate that played an important part in the confirmation of the power network (JAW Nicolay 2006):
https://www.mupload.nl/img/ycyil7odk1d.31.21.png


How come?


In the aftermath of the Roman Empire the Frisian coastal area had a severe population decline. Archeologist are still arguing how fare this was the case. The communis opinion of the last few years is that the more we go to the west in the Frisian coastal area (Dutch and German) the more population decline.
The part of Friesland which was most affected was (later on) called Westergo (https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westergo#/media/File:Westergo.jpg)
Some stated about Westergo in the fourth century: 'you could only hear the seagulls cry.'

But in the fifth and sixth century this changed, there was an influx of two upstreams:
a. in the first half fifth century (or earlier) of the Saxons (Chauci) and Angles;
b. in the second half of the fifth century the Southern Scandinavians.

Again Nicolay (2006):
https://www.mupload.nl/img/njpm2sk3.png

This migrations, especially the last one, pulled Friesland in the Scandic/Germanic world. And especially the previously abandoned Westergo developed as a major stronghold of the Southern Scandinavian/ Danish world. The most Scandic related findings are to be found in this area. The Frisians began in this period for the first time to use runes etc.

See this work of Nicolay (in English) with the striking title: Odin in Friesland!


https://www.academia.edu/35420221/Odin_in_Friesland._Scandinavian_influences_in_the_ southern_North_Sea_area_during_the_Migration_and_E arly_Merovingian_periods


This break between the Frisii of the Roman period and the Frisians afterwards is still not 100% in the collective Dutch mind. In the first half of the twentieth century when Prof. Boeles did a suggestion, based on pottery, of this influxes the patriotic Frisians could keelhaul him, because this ment some sort of discontinuity in the Frisian history. But nowadays it's more and more accepted (but not overall).


Recently I have tested my (and my parents) autosomal DNA, and David of Eurogenes plots me and my father in the corner of the early Anglo-Saxons and the modern Danes (the blue crosses):


https://www.mupload.nl/img/74245vd0.png

My fathers' side is mostly from the North Sea coast districts (my mother is slightly on distance, her ancestors are more from inland North Dutch). Anyhow it shows for me the deep impact of the Nordic influx on the North Dutch.

The relevance for the discussion here is that the Frisians in the fifth, sixth and seventh century AD are to bee seen in 'Southern Scandinavian' context. Until now they are in this respect (the very early middle ages) mostly seen in the Frisian context as such, not as a Danish/Southern Scandinavian derivative (what certainly was the case).


What could be the consequence of that. We can look with another eye to for example Beowulf.

Gregory of Tours (c. 538–594 AD) mentions a Danish king Chlochilaichus who was killed there while invading Frankish territory in the early 6th century. From the early republishing of Beowulf this is seen as the equivalent of Hygelac a personage in Beowulf. Hygelac, as shown by A.S Christensen (http://www.historisktidsskrift.dk/summary/105_78.html), this personage in Beowulf is not to be seen as Chlochilaichus. When Hygelac is to be seen as king, or chieftain, of the Geats he was probably someone in the power networks as shown by Nicolay. When he, as part of the Southern Scandinavian power network, belonged to the Frisian allies, he could shown bravery to fight the 'enemy' : the Franks in their Rhineland territory. But that's my interpretation.

Chlochilaichus himself could indeed be the Danish king, he had a major stronghold in Friesland. From the Frisian territory Northern France is within reach. The Frisian-Frankish controversy was for centuries a major struggle. In the end the Franks were victorious. As a result of that the Frisians were pulled into a Western-European context in stead of a Nordic one.

Finn Folcwalding, the first Frisian king, is most likely a Frisian chieftain also of the Southern Scandinavian entourage, as mentioned in Beowulf 'he must honor the Danes' (the Danish king!?).

But Beowulf is in the first place not to be seen as the work of a nowadays historian. It's poetic. It aims not to be historically precise but is more a epic tale, a inspiring tale of heros from the past. De n'importe quoi if it's sixth or seventh or eight century. Some tribes were 'confused'.

May be we can look with other eyes to the work of Bede (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bede) too.

In the end it stays pretty confusing the "North Sea people amalgam" was in the beginning of the middle ages such a "plate of spaghetti" that it's not always easy to pinpoint exactly.

But one thing looks clear : the Frisians of the early middle ages (fifth-eight century AD), were part of the Nordic world. Only after the subjection to the Franks they became part of the West-European world.....

MOESAN
29-12-17, 16:15
Interesting. I ignored this.
the 'th-' to 't-' evolution in Frisian like in Scandinavian, in place of 'd-' ??? some link?

Northener
29-12-17, 19:34
Interesting. I ignored this.
the 'th-' to 't-' evolution in Frisian like in Scandinavian, in place of 'd-' ??? some link?

May be, but I'am not a linguistic expert....

This posting of Pratt underlines the close ties between the Danes and North Dutch....



Genetically, if they are really Swiss Germans and not some recent German migration to Switzerland, Swiss Germans are somewhat closer to Swiss Italians rather than to Danes, and Swiss Germans do share more cultural traits (Alpine culture, Swiss history and national identity) with Swiss Italians rather than with Danes. Linguistically and ethnographically Swiss Germans are Germanic just as Danes, but quite in the opposite side of the Germanic world.


https://i.imgur.com/5PbeSA7.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/yXs3Tzf.jpg

Ed the Red
30-12-17, 09:59
How do you know if the Frisians weren't some of the first tribes to invade England? They are basically akin to the Anglo-Saxons are they not?

I1a3_Young
30-12-17, 19:42
How do you know if the Frisians weren't some of the first tribes to invade England? They are basically akin to the Anglo-Saxons are they not?There was probably movement across the channel on some scale on a constant basis.The Roman reports said the Kent inhabitants were the Cantiaci who were exclusively a water-based society. It would be nearly impossible for an exclusively sea-faring culture to not have links across the channel.

Northener
01-01-18, 16:41
How do you know if the Frisians weren't some of the first tribes to invade England? They are basically akin to the Anglo-Saxons are they not?

The old Frisii, so during and before the Roman period, could certainly have moved to England.
See for example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuneus_Frisionum
But during the fourth century the (western) part of Friesland had a severe population decline. Filled up by the Nordics.

These Nordics/Anglo Saxons are most probably 'distant cousins' of the old Frisii but are not to be seen a totally equal.

Northener
04-01-18, 21:02
Interesting. I ignored this.
the 'th-' to 't-' evolution in Frisian like in Scandinavian, in place of 'd-' ??? some link?

Just did some phasing with my parents samples and mine.

On my fathers' side there is a direct connection with the influx of West-Norwegians to the North Dutch coastal districts!
Eurogenes K15 (my fathers' side in my auDNA):
1 West_Norwegian 4.9= heartland/departure of the Nordic colonist of Friesland fifth century AD
2 Orcadian 5.21= likewise a Norwegian plant
3 Danish 6.06 = Jutish colonist
4 West_Scottish 6.08= likewise a Norwegian plant
5 North_Dutch 6.14= 'destination' population

IMO a very accurat description of the Nordic plant in North Dutch!

And Moesan may be some phenotype influence too!? With my bizygomatic breadth of 160mm.... ;)

MOESAN
05-01-18, 23:23
The old Frisii, so during and before the Roman period, could certainly have moved to England.
See for example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuneus_Frisionum
But during the fourth century the (western) part of Friesland had a severe population decline. Filled up by the Nordics.

These Nordics/Anglo Saxons are most probably 'distant cousins' of the old Frisii but are not to be seen a totally equal.

Not to disprove the global statement, but this pop decline would not be linked to departures towards England? maybe 4°Cy is to early? Just a question

Northener
06-02-18, 21:42
Not to disprove the global statement, but this pop decline would not be linked to departures towards England? maybe 4°Cy is to early? Just a question

Moesan, a late reply, excuse! The decline is archeological placed in the fourth century AD, may be partly because some Frisii went to Northern France as well ;) Probable there was a relationship with the decline of the Roman empire.....Not certain. The only thing we know is that in the fourth century the most western parts of Friesland (later on called Westergo (https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westergo#/media/File:Westergo.jpg)) became invisable on the archeological radar, it's still disputed if the abandonment was total or there was a small residu population, the more eastward you went the less depopulation....(in Oostergo, Groningen and East-Friesland).

Saillant: Westergo became the major stronghold of the new germanic elite!

See also this magnificent paper, Odin in Friesland! (https://www.academia.edu/35420221/Odin_in_Friesland._Scandinavian_influences_in_the_ southern_North_Sea_area_during_the_Migration_and_E arly_Merovingian_periods)

RVBlake
07-02-18, 21:04
This is a fascinating topic...My haplogroup is R1a1a1>L-664, the Northwestern European group, and my earliest recorded paternal ancestor, from the 16th Century, was southern English. I read "Odin in Friesland" a couple of times, and didn't see anything about Scandinavian settlement in Friesland after the depopulation in the 3rd Century. Unless I missed something, I interpreted the author to say that the new Anglo-Saxon elites in Friesland adopted cultural Scandinavian motifs to counter the looming Frankish presence. In other words, no Scandinavian genetics among the new Frisian elites, just adoption of Scandinavian culture. Perhaps I missed something? Regards.

Northener
09-02-18, 16:53
This is a fascinating topic...My haplogroup is R1a1a1>L-664, the Northwestern European group, and my earliest recorded paternal ancestor, from the 16th Century, was southern English. I read "Odin in Friesland" a couple of times, and didn't see anything about Scandinavian settlement in Friesland after the depopulation in the 3rd Century. Unless I missed something, I interpreted the author to say that the new Anglo-Saxon elites in Friesland adopted cultural Scandinavian motifs to counter the looming Frankish presence. In other words, no Scandinavian genetics among the new Frisian elites, just adoption of Scandinavian culture. Perhaps I missed something? Regards.

Yes I guess you missed something, but that's no wonder because he has written more about this subject in Dutch....keyfigure:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/l2jinjcfq.png

As you can see there are two migration to Friesland in the fifth century:
- an early anglo saxon one
- a later on jutish/norwegian one