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Jovialis
05-01-18, 05:35
This is something that someone had proposed to me a while ago, and it sort of stuck in my mind. What do you think?

-We are composed of matter that happened to come together to form who we are today.

-After we die and decompose, what is the chance of the same exact matter ever reforming exactly as it is supposed to be? Even the entire world and galaxy around us?

-Even if it was an unfathomably small chance, over the course of infinite-time it must happen again; It had to have happened already.

elghund
05-01-18, 07:47
This is something that someone had proposed to me a while ago, and it sort of stuck in my mind. What do you think?

-We are composed of matter that happened to come together to form who we are today.

-After we die and decompose, what is the chance of the same exact matter ever reforming exactly as it is supposed to be? Even the entire world and galaxy around us?

-Even if it was an unfathomably small chance, over the course of infinite-time it must happen again; It had to have happened already.

Maybe.

I like Alan Watts's musings on this subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqtORNdfbsM

LeBrok
05-01-18, 08:23
This is something that someone had proposed to me a while ago, and it sort of stuck in my mind. What do you think?

-We are composed of matter that happened to come together to form who we are today.

-After we die and decompose, what is the chance of the same exact matter ever reforming exactly as it is supposed to be? Even the entire world and galaxy around us?

-Even if it was an unfathomably small chance, over the course of infinite-time it must happen again; It had to have happened already.Perhaps only if you believe in infinite multiverse. Besides, at the time we are born we are composed of mostly different atoms that we die with. There is constant churn of atoms in our body.

davef
05-01-18, 09:43
A dead person won't ever unless somehow his/her decomposed corpse somehow ends up splitting off as an egg with the right genetic material (within a mother of said genetic material) and the sperm that successfully fertilizes it. What's the chance of that?

Where will that meat sack end up? Especially after a good part of it is maggot lunch? Why should it ever revive or exist again?

Jovialis
05-01-18, 14:23
Perhaps only if you believe in infinite multiverse. Besides, at the time we are born we are composed of mostly different atoms that we die with. There is constant churn of atoms in our body.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx7erWZ8TjA

I do think that such a thing as a multiverse may exist.

Maciamo
05-01-18, 15:16
This is something that someone had proposed to me a while ago, and it sort of stuck in my mind. What do you think?

-We are composed of matter that happened to come together to form who we are today.

-After we die and decompose, what is the chance of the same exact matter ever reforming exactly as it is supposed to be? Even the entire world and galaxy around us?

-Even if it was an unfathomably small chance, over the course of infinite-time it must happen again; It had to have happened already.

I thought about this with exactly the same argument (infinite time) when I was a teenager, and I haven't found anything to disprove it yet. It's just that the timescale involved would be so huge as to be completely unfathomable by humans. Out of the atoms that constitute our body, only those in the neurons are relevant, as the nervous system is what is responsible for our mind, senses and consciousness. However, there are close to no chances that these atoms recombine ever again on this Earth with the same DNA and all. That means that we will have to wait to our part of the Universe to come together again and re-explode as a Big Bang countless times until the conditions are similar enough to recreate the same Earth. As unlikely as that sounds, we would still need the very same atoms, and those atoms will eventually need to be exactly those used to recreate our second body's nervous system. The chances of all this happening being so infinitesimally tiny that there are just no number fitting in a human mind to imagine the time needed.

It gets more complicated if our universe is like a semi-closed system within a larger multiverse, and that multiple universes can in some way exchange energy and atoms.

Some people say that consciousness is merely an illusion anyway. It may not be necessary for the atoms to remain the same in our brain. In fact, even though most neurons remain the same throughout our life, many of them die day after day as we age, as new ones are sometimes created. Besides, neurons are constantly modified every time they fire or create new synaptic connections. Atoms of Na+ and K+ are absorbed and evacuated during depolarisation and repolarisation when ion channels open and close as the membrane reaches the threshold potential and fires, in response to a signal from another neuron. So even our neurons are not stable in terms of atoms. Consciousness is one of the most difficult things to understand. I am still looking for an explanation as to how I can feel a few seconds or minutes in advance when a close relative or friend is going to call me (and vice versa sometimes). Why is it that I can often feel that I have received an email when my phone is off, and when I check on my PC I just received it at that moment? But it only works with people I know well. It's like our minds are connected somehow. How does that fit in our understanding of consciousness?

Jovialis
05-01-18, 15:47
^^Once I had sent someone a very extensive text message, asking them a detailed question. They responded within a few seconds of it being sent, with a detailed response. For the time it would have taken to read it, think of the response and type it, seemed too fast. It was very bizarre.

Johane Derite
05-01-18, 15:55
Physical reincarnation/resurrection is irrelevant.

Hypothetically, if an instant clone machine existed, and you stepped into it and
out came a identical clone with every single neuron and cell in the same position and everything as you (including your memories) that clone
would still not be you technically. They would feel exactly the same as you and have all the same memories, but their history would be
different on the causal chain from yours. You would not be inhabiting the same consciousness as the clone of yourself, thus he would be an "other".

Same goes for a reincarnation scenario, if a person 1 million years from now wakes up with all your memories and body, he would still be "other" to you.

Unless there is an immortal element that is attached to the continuity of individual consciousness (like a soul) then reincarnation/resurrection is eternally
irrelevant and self undermined. I think brain trauma victims who lose their memory and thus their identity are testaments to the lack of such an element.

Jovialis
05-01-18, 16:15
Physical reincarnation/resurrection is irrelevant.

Hypothetically, if an instant clone machine existed, and you stepped into it and
out came a identical clone with every single neuron and cell in the same position and everything as you (including your memories) that clone
would still not be you technically. They would feel exactly the same as you and have all the same memories, but their history would be
different on the causal chain from yours. You would not be inhabiting the same consciousness as the clone of yourself, thus he would be an "other".

Same goes for a reincarnation scenario, if a person 1 million years from now wakes up with all your memories and body, he would still be "other" to you.

Unless there is an immortal element that is attached to the continuity of individual consciousness (like a soul) then reincarnation/resurrection is eternally

irrelevant and self undermined. I think brain trauma victims who lose their memory and thus their identity are testaments to the lack of such an element.

Yes, but that would be a duplicate. In this scenario, it's exactly your original parts reassembling. But even so, we would have no recollection of the past life.

davef
05-01-18, 17:42
You'd have to reincarnate through reproduction. That matter that makes up your dead body would have to be picked up by and exist within other people. This same matter did exist outside other organisms before, maybe before the first living thing came to be I guess, so perhaps the same chain of events that passed it along from the first micro organisms to your parents and finally yourself would have to repeat. My two pennies

paul333
05-01-18, 18:18
Not sure about re-incarnation, but I read somewhere that carbon from human cremations in the UK, was traced and found on leaves or trees in America, not sure if carbon contains any evidence or chemical remains of an individual, but if plants such as trees etc use carbon for growth, then it opens a door for continuity in some form.

Maciamo
05-01-18, 21:23
Physical reincarnation/resurrection is irrelevant.

Hypothetically, if an instant clone machine existed, and you stepped into it and
out came a identical clone with every single neuron and cell in the same position and everything as you (including your memories) that clone
would still not be you technically. They would feel exactly the same as you and have all the same memories, but their history would be
different on the causal chain from yours. You would not be inhabiting the same consciousness as the clone of yourself, thus he would be an "other".

That's true. But what makes us feel like we are us and not someone else? Jovialis was saying that it might be the atoms themselves, and not just the DNA or position of the neurons in the brain. After all the brain reshapes itself all the time based on our everyday experiences, but we still feel like we are ourselves. Identical twins share the same genome but feel like separate individuals. Nevertheless, it seems that identical twins feel much more "connected" with one another than with other individuals. They can feel each others' pain and emotions, and many experience some sort of intuition about the other at a distance, like when I explained above that I can feel when someone is about to call me. So it may be that DNA can somehow link people "wirelessly" as if the two consciousness were gently interconnected. I can't explain it yet. It may have something to do with brain waves, at least when they are physically close to each other. No idea what it could be over distances of dozens or hundreds of kilometres.

Maciamo
05-01-18, 21:31
Not sure about re-incarnation, but I read somewhere that carbon from human cremations in the UK, was traced and found on leaves or trees in America, not sure if carbon contains any evidence or chemical remains of an individual, but if plants such as trees etc use carbon for growth, then it opens a door for continuity in some form.

It's much easier for our body's atoms and molecules to be recycled by other life beings. It fact, that is what happens when we eat something as it is always organic matter from another life being. When we die, unless we are cremated, our bodies are decomposed by bacteria and worms, which in turn find their way in other organisms. That's the cycle of life. But I doubt that any form of consciousness can survive the experience, even if say all the atoms of the part of the brain hosting consciousness (thalamus?) were to find their way into an animal's egg and then that the equivalent part of the brain of that foetus. I just can"t see how consciousness could be stored in atoms. But as the brain changes all the time and twins can share identical DNA, neither the genome nor the brain are the answer to our feeling of uniqueness. There is still a lot we don't know.

FBS
07-01-18, 18:04
Human arrogance (ego, separation, identity, or whichever way we like to think of it) has discontected us from one another. Otherwise we are all connnected on the quantum level and not only humans, but we lost these senses since we consider ourselves superior to other species and we are extremely influenced by the “memes”. Actualy we are the best vessel (our brains) for memes (information). So, reincarnation,.... naaahhh, it’s just another meme helping us not to loose our minds when realizing that we are used by “something” else, same as the belief in god and the like, ....it sounds a bit like “matrix” all over, I know...

Jovialis
07-01-18, 18:15
Human arrogance (ego, separation, identity, or whichever way we like to think of it) has discontected us from one another. Otherwise we are all connnected on the quantum level and not only humans, but we lost these senses since we consider ourselves superior to other species and we are extremely influenced by the “memes”. Actualy we are the best vessel (our brains) for memes (information). So, reincarnation,.... naaahhh, it’s just another meme helping us not to loose our minds when realizing that we are used by “something” else, same as the belief in god and the like, ....it sounds a bit like “matrix” all over, I know...

We are literally made from stardust (https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/01/150128-big-bang-universe-supernova-astrophysics-health-space-ngbooktalk/), thus we are part of the universe trying to understand itself.

We are basically the universe becoming self-aware.

Carlos
18-01-18, 10:56
As I like to have experiences I made a series of regressions to past lives with a professional, and results are obtained but as humans we have such an imaginative mind I do not know to what point we are wrapping the situations in a movie from another life or it is really true what of reincarnation.

aleph
17-02-19, 07:54
I do not think think that "reincarnation" as a re-emergence of a similar form of matter would make sense, since you body, like every other physical object would be going through many different changes on a fundamental structure- ie, in terms of how we can quantum mechanically describe all information in your body. So, even if matter were re-structured as being similar to what the information of your body was at the time of your birth, it can undergo drastically different evolution because of randomness both in the environment and the body itself (like the exact positions of molecules at any given point of time).

Now what about the idea of the state (like the fundamental arrangement) of your brain and the information/memories in it getting randomly replicated in another brain or a thought center. Will these two brains still think differently, or will it be like somehow being in two places at once? This isn't reincarnation, but still kind of an interesting thought.

Getting back to the topic though- reincarnation or any kind of "life after this one" scenario would have to involve some metaphysical concept. If none exist then there would be no reincarnation either.

AnnLee21
01-03-19, 11:05
As for me, I believe in life after death and in the eternal life of our souls, in reincarnation too.