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Olympus Mons
18-01-18, 22:29
It just has been published the R1b-M343 (xP312xU106) Y-DNA tree by Sergey Malyshev.
(https://kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b_xP312xU106_V.38.1.pdf)

I don’t really know them, don’t know how credible this things are. However two things are remarkable.
a. They, like Genetiker, put ATP3 as M269 and,
b. most amazingly, add MC337A, Monte Canelas (Portugal), Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic also as R1b-M269.
c. Atp3 in north Spain 3400-3100 bc and MC337 is 3200-2900bc in the most remote southwestern point of Europe.


Remember that Martiniano et al published several Portugal Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic individuals as I2a1b giving the impression they dominate this Period in Portugal and MC337A as nothing reported for him. Then, the following period, middle bronze age, as full of R1b1a2a1a2 (so, P312). Hence the arrival of Steppe (or Balkan east bell beakers) R1b timeline mantra. Though, these 3 bronze age P312 actually had no Steppe component to them. But it did not deter the narrative.

If, I repeat If, this turns out to be correct then we have In Portugal, further way as one gets from steppe. 3200BC (M269) ------- son 1800BC (P312) ----- grandson R1b-DF27 (without Z195, so no East to west cline). In the same 100 miles area.

Not really the story we are been told, is it?

bicicleur
18-01-18, 23:52
it is early Iberian chalcolithic
these people came clearly from elsewhere
but where?

Olympus Mons
19-01-18, 00:47
it is early Iberian chalcolithic
these people came clearly from elsewhere
but where?

What would be your bet? :)

I personally think that is not serious to see a vast amount (as Katie Manning as shown) of people disappear from the Green Sahara turning into Sahara desert due to the 5.9 Kiloyear event .... at the same time an almost wasteland such as iberia sees its population spike to a point where a city such as porto torrao a few hundreds later has as much people as cities like the Mesopotamian UR-- And not connect the dots!

Or maybe people came from several parts... maybe the arrival of such amount from N. Africa also attracted others from other parts (southern france?) ... we will see.

For katie Manning Mp4, see at the end of her paper....http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277379114002728

bicicleur
19-01-18, 01:09
What would be your bet? :)

I personally think that is not serious to see a vast amount (as Katie Manning as shown) of people disappear from the Green Sahara turning into Sahara desert due to the 5.9 Kiloyear event .... at the same time an almost wasteland such as iberia sees its population spike to a point where a city such as porto torrao a few hundreds later has as much people as cities like the Mesopotamian UR-- And not connect the dots!

Or maybe people came from several parts... maybe the arrival of such amount from N. Africa also attracted others from other parts (southern france?) ... we will see.

For katie Manning Mp4, see at the end of her paper....http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277379114002728

I don't have a clue, but I wouldn't think people introducing copper melting into Iberia came from the Green Sahara.
It could be the Balkans, but there no such early R1b-M269 has been sampled.

Olympus Mons
19-01-18, 01:31
I don't have a clue, but I wouldn't think people introducing copper melting into Iberia came from the Green Sahara.
It could be the Balkans, but there no such early R1b-M269 has been sampled.
Yes, dificult to grasp.
*However Egypt Badarians (4400bc 4000bc) already were melting copper... Do you think it was people from the Balkans?
*and would not be surprise if also find copper with merimde, because they brought all other traits to the region....
Up until not that long ago, Because ivory in chalc portugal was from there, portuguese archeology papers connected chalc with Badarian ...
Things might be more complicated...
..

Govan
19-01-18, 02:53
They are late Neolithic though , basically Calcholithic. By that time branches of M269 reached Central Europe , and already about to diversify into subclades.

Genetiker
19-01-18, 04:47
I missed that MC337A was male back when I analyzed the Portuguese samples. It isn’t R1b-M269. It’s H2a1~FGC3846. I’ve added a link to its calls on my post (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017/08/04/y-snp-calls-from-prehistoric-portugal/) on the Portuguese samples.

bicicleur
19-01-18, 08:55
Yes, dificult to grasp.
*However Egypt Badarians (4400bc 4000bc) already were melting copper... Do you think it was people from the Balkans?
*and would not be surprise if also find copper with merimde, because they brought all other traits to the region....
Up until not that long ago, Because ivory in chalc portugal was from there, portuguese archeology papers connected chalc with Badarian ...
Things might be more complicated...
..

I have no clue.
If they came from the Balkan, I guess we should have found the R1b-M269 there too.

Olympus Mons
19-01-18, 10:37
I missed that MC337A was male back when I analyzed the Portuguese samples. It isn’t R1b-M269. It’s H2a1~FGC3846. I’ve added a link to its calls on my post (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017/08/04/y-snp-calls-from-prehistoric-portugal/) on the Portuguese samples.

But on the calls you have for him it shows positive for M269...

halfalp
19-01-18, 13:36
Yes, dificult to grasp.
*However Egypt Badarians (4400bc 4000bc) already were melting copper... Do you think it was people from the Balkans?
*and would not be surprise if also find copper with merimde, because they brought all other traits to the region....
Up until not that long ago, Because ivory in chalc portugal was from there, portuguese archeology papers connected chalc with Badarian ...
Things might be more complicated...
.. So there was Chalcolithic in Africa ? I fought they jumped directly from Late Neolithic to Iron Age.

Olympus Mons
19-01-18, 17:57
So there was Chalcolithic in Africa ? I fought they jumped directly from Late Neolithic to Iron Age.
Yes. Badarian had copper awls, beads, etc.
However, I think the story is different. All other “Caucasian” traits (types of grains, pastoral, dogs, etc.) were brought by Merimde beni salama people (4700BC-4000BC), so I think they brought copper melting with them to the region. If & when they are sampled there will be a surprise.
Badarian were more south and not the same phenotype as Merimde which were taller and with a bigger cranial vault.
The resulting people (Badarian/Merimde) might have been Maadi culture (4000-3500BC). Cranial(ly) they were a mix. And had lots of copper. Even copper adzes. And domesticated donkeys.

….and then… why do we have a 2300BC African donkey in Portugal, when everybody assumed they had been introduced much later? Weirdly on a bell beaker site.

halfalp
19-01-18, 18:29
Yes. Badarian had copper awls, beads, etc.
However, I think the story is different. All other “Caucasian” traits (types of grains, pastoral, dogs, etc.) were brought by Merimde beni salama people (4700BC-4000BC), so I think they brought copper melting with them to the region. If & when they are sampled there will be a surprise.
Badarian were more south and not the same phenotype as Merimde which were taller and with a bigger cranial vault.
The resulting people (Badarian/Merimde) might have been Maadi culture (4000-3500BC). Cranial(ly) they were a mix. And had lots of copper. Even copper adzes. And domesticated donkeys.

….and then… why do we have a 2300BC African donkey in Portugal, when everybody assumed they had been introduced much later? Weirdly on a bell beaker site.

I know that western egypt had native copper and meteoric iron that could have been a proto-metallurgy but looking at Badarian, it looks way more eastern egypt.

Olympus Mons
19-01-18, 18:48
I know that western egypt had native copper and meteoric iron that could have been a proto-metallurgy but looking at Badarian, it looks way more eastern egypt.

Yes, that is why, to me at least, badarian is a puzzling. I think badarian overrun Merimbiens. But the Merimdian/El-omari were the ones that brought/have it and not the Badarian that just stole and kick them out. Maadi is a mix.
Just because it has not yet been found at their sites, merimde, does not mean it wasn't them. The German team found this year that Merimde was actually much bigger. so they have authorization to excavate further.... lets see what comes out.

holderlin
19-01-18, 21:12
I'm not trying to push any narrative, but I had thought that the first P312 in Iberia did have a small measure of "steppe".

halfalp
19-01-18, 21:17
Until they found 1 or 2 outliers with 75% Steppe, archeogenetic is a non-static science that can change by perspective to a study through another.

Ygorcs
20-01-18, 00:24
So the R1b was M269 or not? Genetiker himself states that one of the supposed samples was actually a H2. Before speculating about the best hypotheses, shouldn't we be totally sure that we do have several R1b-M269 there in the first place?

Olympus Mons
20-01-18, 01:01
So the R1b was M269 or not? Genetiker himself states that one of the supposed samples was actually a H2. Before speculating about the best hypotheses, shouldn't we be totally sure that we do have several R1b-M269 there in the first place?

Replace MC337 by ATP3 (3400bc) that both genetiker and Malyshev say is M269 and you can postulate the same.
I was using MC because than all samples are from a 100 miles region....

Olympus Mons
20-01-18, 01:05
I'm not trying to push any narrative, but I had thought that the first P312 in Iberia did have a small measure of "steppe".
Interesting. So a steppe R1b can get to Portugal with minuscule Steppe and its game on, but an Iberian getting to germany with minimal Iberian neolithic invalidates 50 years of archaeology stating the origins of Bell beakers in Portugal, therefore as the source of their patrilineage?

Have you notive now that is given in "certain circles" that bellbeakers r1b is from... balkans?

I1a3_Young
20-01-18, 01:26
I think as usual the spread of R1b is confusing and probably came in many waves with possible multiple sources. Putting it into one source would be hard unless we can pinpoint exactly where M269 originated, which is extremely difficult using ancient samples.

Ygorcs
20-01-18, 05:02
Interesting. So a steppe R1b can get to Portugal with minuscule Steppe and its game on, but an Iberian getting to germany with minimal Iberian neolithic invalidates 50 years of archaeology stating the origins of Bell beakers in Portugal, therefore as the source of their patrilineage?

Have you notive now that is given in "certain circles" that bellbeakers r1b is from... balkans?

The only problem with this very possible narrative is that the Y-DNA and the autosomal DNA of Portuguese Bell Beakers (those few that were analyzed, of course) were clearly very different from Central European Bell Beakers. I could understand very few autosomal DNA from them surviving after generations of mixing in Central Europe, but also none of the typical Portuguese Bell Beaker Y-DNA that were found? Could we really presume from 1 Neolithic (not even Bronze Age, much less in a clearly Bell Beaker context) R1b that Bell Beakers from Portugal spread all the R1b-M269 that we know?

Olympus Mons
20-01-18, 15:07
None of the portuguese samples were bell beakers. They were in the region but bell beakers people were not thrown into caves like the samples they used....

Milan.M
20-01-18, 16:32
So R1b M269 was already in Iberia in Neolithic?
Also i am confused that in "Yamnaya" until now is only found the eastern branch of R1b-Z103.

ROS
20-01-18, 17:32
@Olympus Mons

That is to say that all the tests collected to verify this phenomenon of massive invasion of the steppe, are non-objective tests and chosen on purpose to accommodate them to a previously conceived theory?

I do not think it was like that


If it is true that apart from these comments that in iberia were only tested neolithic and not true campaniformes, also in France it is observed that the few tests they perform are very close to Germany.

MOESAN
20-01-18, 19:01
@Olympus Mons
None of the portuguese samples were bell beakers. They were in the region but bell beakers people were not thrown into caves like the samples they used.... "
:
Possible indeed but are you so sure?To try to reconciliate all these contradictions, we can imagine a first borderline pop initiating the BB cultural phenomenon in CSW Portugal SW Spain, and becoming accepted by a certain Chalco elite, creating kind of a (religious) mode accaparated later by this Chalco elite and spred around by it in other places (BTW let's keep in mind the BB phenomenon, even in it strongest phase, did not cover all the territories where it dived its places) - an elite with power and controle of commercial "highways" could have boosted the circulation of this new (religious) mode ? Hypothesis...
THat said, an eastern origin (East carpathians) cannot be excluded, and first Y-R1b not more - but I regret we have not more serious samples for supposed Iberian BB's, as you.

Olympus Mons
20-01-18, 21:27
@Olympus Mons
None of the portuguese samples were bell beakers. They were in the region but bell beakers people were not thrown into caves like the samples they used.... "
:
Possible indeed but are you so sure?To try to reconciliate all these contradictions, we can imagine a first borderline pop initiating the BB cultural phenomenon in CSW Portugal SW Spain, and becoming accepted by a certain Chalco elite, creating kind of a (religious) mode accaparated later by this Chalco elite and spred around by it in other places (BTW let's keep in mind the BB phenomenon, even in it strongest phase, did not cover all the territories where it dived its places) - an elite with power and controle of commercial "highways" could have boosted the circulation of this new (religious) mode ? Hypothesis...
THat said, an eastern origin (East carpathians) cannot be excluded, and first Y-R1b not more - but I regret we have not more serious samples for supposed Iberian BB's, as you.

This conundrum does not have a solution anymore.
Once Martiniano and Olalde published what they did, even though they make some warnings about samples, but after what they published…. Its over at least for a while. No point in arguing against.
See, its not easy to fix the Portuguese bell beakers problem now. Remember.
a. Oldest BB ever, ever, was the one in Hut FM (or Hut3) at the doorsteps of the leceia fortress. We have stratigraphy that show that for hundreds of years, generation after generation, the Hut FM were bell beakers and the hut 300 meters away never went to bell beaker. Different pottery. And they lived in the same 500 meters for centuries. So, different people that did not mix! .
b. To figure who bell beakers were, one would need to sample either Zambujal or VNSP. Who were the people that made fine “copos” (beakers), that were just one steppe away from bell shape…
c. Martiniano and olalde are comparing proper bell beakers, buried in individual graves with all the traits of a proper bell beaker, with Portuguese late neolithic people thrown at caves? Does it strike you as serious?
d. Perdigoes in the south Portugal is treasure trove. So, some proper Bell beakers there…. But, but, are late 3rd milenia. Those samples are being collected for adna …. But see, whatever comes out will be read as, oh, the eastern bell beakers arrived…. And if they do not exhibit large amounts of steppe, is just generation admix with locals that diluted it.

So, unless its tested proper Bell beakers in Portugal and later proper burial in Galicia, and so forth we will never know. Because even the Spanish meseta central bell beakers are later, and later who knows, van already be admix with central euope people coming back, something we know they did at some point.
And unless the 1300 years of Perdigoes burials brings a surprise (like pure 3000bc as r1b) we will never get to the bottom of it.

Note: seems VNSP land owner (the daughter) has came to an agreement with authorities (150 euros a month…..WTF!!) so, archeologists are going to be back to dig some more after 40 years. Lets see what they get. First survey showed it was much bigger.

Olympus Mons
20-01-18, 21:40
@Olympus Mons

That is to say that all the tests collected to verify this phenomenon of massive invasion of the steppe, are non-objective tests and chosen on purpose to accommodate them to a previously conceived theory?
I do not think it was like that

If it is true that apart from these comments that in iberia were only tested neolithic and not true campaniformes, also in France it is observed that the few tests they perform are very close to Germany.

Ros,
the world is not made of conspirators, is made of self interest.
Samples were chosen due to the probability of yielding good DNA. So, the colder and dampest the better. And yes, coldest and dampest does fall perfectly on their believes.

Having said that…. Everybody, everybody knows for decades that the Bell beakers had a huge exchange with Cwc in that region and that they were the ones moving to northern Europe and Netherland, Denmark ( and UK). Since Nmdental traits done on bell beakers, everybody knew they were the half breeds and that there was something kinky with exogamy between Bell beakers males and CWC women (ok and the other way around). That is not part of the paper (olalde) narrative, is it?

So, if they (and not saying they were) were original Iberians BB with 5 generations per century of local admix, after 15 generations when they admix with CWC, how do you think they would look like?

MOESAN
21-01-18, 13:47
wait and see but I'm as hungry as you for more serious data in Iberia; the first ones are the ones who interests me...

CrazyDonkey
01-02-18, 03:01
it is early Iberian chalcolithic
these people came clearly from elsewhere
but where?

"The Zagros farmers domesticated goats as well as cereals such as emmer, whereas their counterparts to the west had their own crops, including barley and wheat. Around 9,500 years ago, these traditions began spreading around the Middle East, Rogers says, noting that the two populations of farmers may have mixed in eastern Turkey while seeking out sources of obsidian, which was useful for making tools. By the time farmers in present-day Turkey began migrating to Europe, they carried a 'Neolithic toolkit' that included crops, animals and tools from both farming traditions."

-- "Farming invented twice in Middle East, genomes study reveals", Nature, June 20, 2016 ("Google" - can't post links yet).

Zagros farmers were R1b. Source of Yamnaya R1b? Was M269 originally from NW Iran, then spread with Neolithic expansion? R1b also found in Cyprus and Crete. Did they island hop?

MOESAN
09-02-18, 20:37
"Zagros farmers were R1b."
@CrazyDonkey

for me Zagros mountains open on the Mesopotamian region and are not too open to Central Asia. I think personally that if Y-R1b was South the Caucasus before to be North the Pont, it would have arrived from East along the South-Caspian shores regions. But it is still an hypothesis. Don't forget R1b ancestors were before surely around Penjab or South Central Asia... and the plain would have been more attractive than the Zagros mountains, except if they were only poor caprins and ovins pastors, what is not so sure, if they began the IE boosters...

Brennos
12-02-18, 09:55
The sample from Portugal is H2, as Genetiker said, because its calls lead to H2 without holes... the call on M269 seems lonely put in the pot, sort of false positive.

MOESAN
25-02-18, 00:27
R1b M269 is an old stage of R1b; without downstream SNP's it doesn't help too much,I think. If we should find huge amouts of M269 it could signify something but to date? some little groups of M269 and/or close SNP's in the tree could have taken a lot of roads on every direction with very different autosomes makings, due to the fact they were small groups.

Parafarne
19-08-18, 17:26
If we see hg G and J2's route in settling in Europe they toke the southern highway and danube river route so maybe m269 too toke several routes, so now the question should be which group which route resulted in their successful colonization? of course the more ancient the better!