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Angela
14-02-18, 02:33
Based on the STRS, the authors conclude he was R1a.

See:Judit Olasz et al
"DNA profiling of Hungarian King Béla III and other skeletal remains originating from the Royal Basilica of Székesfehérvár"

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-018-0609-7

"A few decades after the collapse of the Avar Khaganate (c. 822 AD), Hungarian invaders conquered the Carpathian Basin (c. 862–895 AD). The first Hungarian ruling dynasty, the Árpáds played an important role in European history during the Middle Ages. King Béla III (1172–1196) was one of the most significant rulers of the dynasty. He also consolidated Hungarian dominance over the Northern Balkans. The provostry church of the Virgin Mary (commonly known as the Royal Basilica of Székesfehérvár) played a prominent role as a coronation church and burial place of medieval Hungarian kings. The basilica’s building and graves had been destroyed over the centuries. The only royal graves that remained intact were those of King Béla III and his first spouse, Anna of Antioch. These graves were discovered in 1848. We defined the autosomal STR (short tandem repeat) fingerprints of the royal couple and eight additional individuals (two females and six males) found in the Royal Basilica. These results revealed no evidence of first-degree relationship between any of the investigated individuals. Y-chromosomal STR profiles were also established for all the male skeletons. Based upon the Y-chromosomal data, one male skeleton showed an obvious patrilineal relationship to King Béla III. A database search uncovered an existing Y-chromosomal haplotype, which had a single-repeat difference compared to that of King Béla. It was discovered in a person living in an area close to Hungary. This current male line is probably related paternally to the Árpád Dynasty. The control region of the mitochondrial DNA was determined in the royal couple and in the remains of the inferred relative. The mitochondrial results excluded sibling relationship between the King and the patrilineal relative. In summary, we successfully defined a Y-chromosomal profile of King Béla III, which can serve as a reference for the identification of further remains and disputed living descendants of the Árpád Dynasty. Among the examined skeletons, we discovered an Árpád member, whose exact affiliation, however, has not yet been established."

Messier 67
14-02-18, 03:08
My assumption for a long time is that the Magyars were R1a dominant/plurality. That should mean the whole Árpáds were R1a.

Do we know if it is Z93 like the Ottoman Sultans. That would be telling too. There is a minority of scholars who say the Hungarian language is related more to Turkic. This, especially if Z93 shows up could give some credence to their opinion.

hrvat22
14-02-18, 09:39
(It should be known) that the Croats who now live in the region of Dalmatia are descended from the unbaptized Croats, also called the‘white’, who live beyond Turkey and next to Francia,
White Croats, because they are constantly plundered by the Franks and Turks and Pechenegs.
The rest of the Croats stayed over Francia, and are now called the Belocroats, that is, the White Croats, and have their own archon; they are subject to Otto, the great king of Francia, which is also Saxony, and are unbaptized, and intermarry and are friendly with the Turks.De Administrando Imperio (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Administrando_Imperio)Turkey - Hungary

hrvat22
14-02-18, 16:13
The dynasty was named after Grand Prince (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_Hungary)Árpád (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%81rp%C3%A1d)...The beginning of the history of the dynasty begins with the Duke Arpad († 907), the son of Duke Almoas, led by seven Hungarian tribes who lead them over the River Don to the Pannonian Basin. There Arpad and his descendants founded the first political and state structures of a later strong Hungarian kingdom.


Bela III. (1148 - Gran, April 23, 1196), the Croat-Hungarian King (1172 - 1196) from the Arpadovic dynasty.


It is possible that this R1a Z93 proves this migration(Scythians) from Don River (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_River_(Russia)) because R1a Z93 probably exist in that area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians

kuzmosi
14-02-18, 20:33
I think, this is a very interesting and informative work in the subject.

http://doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/3794/1/Neparaczki_PhD.pdf

In the end, there is a shortened english version, but I think, it is also worth translating the hungarian text with a translator.

paul333
14-02-18, 20:55
Intresting as King Bella born 1148, died 18th April 1196 ?, is reputedly the ancester of the English Royal Family, through Edward II,marriage to Isabella of France. He was the GG/Grandson of Harold Godwinson, Died Hastings 1066, via his Daughter Gytha, and Vladimer II of Kiev.

There was an unsuccesfull attempt to identify remains in Bosham church ( Harolds estate, Boshan church is shown on the Tapestry ) through DNA testing of alledged descendants of King Harold a few years ago, who may of been buried there, as headless skeleton with a leg missing was found, matching his supposed injuries of the Battle. King Cnuts daughter is also reputedly buried there, and Harold was related to the Scandinavian royal family through his mother, Also named Gytha.

kuzmosi
14-02-18, 20:58
And just an additive.

I completed all of my 8 great-great-grandfathers Y-haplogroup definition, with the help of their direct male descendants, and the help from YSEQ.

The results:
E1b1b-V13-Z17107*
R1b-U106-DF98-S22069*
R1b-U152-L2-Z49-S8172*
I2A-L621-A1328*
R1a-M458-L260-YP415*
R1a-L664-S2852 (not complete yet)
I1A-L22-CTS11603 (not complete yet)
I2A-L621-Y4460 (not complete yet)

Until today, I thought, I haven't hungarian ancestors. But I read Angela's post, and I found the linked file from Neparaczki, and now I guess, through my german lines (R1a-L664, R1b-U106, I1A-L22) yet I found my hungarian roots. Strange...

ThirdTerm
14-02-18, 22:22
King Béla III was determined to belong to Y-DNA haplogroup R1a and mtDNA haplogroup H1b. Other male skeletons from the same Hungarian tomb belong to R1a (2), J1 (1), R1b (2), and E1b1 (1). Anna of Antioch, the first wife of King Béla III, had mtDNA haplogroup H.



There were three R1a and two R1b statistically predicted Y haplogroups among the male skeletons (Table 3). These are the most frequent and second most frequent haplogroups (25.6 and 18.1% respectively) in the present Hungarian population (Völgyi et al. 2009). King Béla III was inferred to belong to haplogroup R1a. The R1a Y haplogroup relates paternally to more than 10% of men in a wide geographic area from South Asia to Central Eastern Europe and South Siberia (Underhill et al. 2010).

The inferred mitochondrial haplogroups were H1b for Béla III, H (H1j8 or H1bz) for Anna of Antioch and T2b2b1 for person II/52 (Table 5). The mitochondrial haplogroup H occurs with a frequency of 46% in Europe as a whole (Richards et al. 2000). H1b is found throughout the area of haplogroup H, but more frequently in Eastern Europe and North Central Europe (7 and 5% of H, respectively) (Loogväli et al. 2004).

Dibran
15-02-18, 17:12
King Béla III was determined to belong to Y-DNA haplogroup R1a and mtDNA haplogroup H1b. Other male skeletons from the same Hungarian tomb belong to R1a (2), J1 (1), R1b (2), and E1b1 (1). Anna of Antioch, the first wife of King Béla III, has mtDNA haplogroup H.

If he came up Z280 or M458 it would really shake things up. Is there any ADNA for M458? or do we only have Z280? a lot of M458 supposedly popped up in Circassians. Perhaps some Steppe tribes carried basal M458.

Angela
15-02-18, 17:40
People are posting this info:

Bela III: R1a-Z93>Z2125>Z2123>Y934 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y934/)

Sample I/3G : J1-Z1842>Y4423>CTS1460 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS1460/)

I can't independently verify it.

Milan.M
15-02-18, 19:49
Like most "steppe" nomads very diverse,where many people join into tribal confederation.
But they seem to had "Indo-Aryan" or rather Turkic or Turkicizied elite as R1a-Z93 suggests,well Scythian from further east.

So much of their Uralic "N" haplogroup,which in fact also their language is just 21% Uralic,20% Slavic,11% German,Turkic 10% and most of it 30% uncertain origin.

RajvoSa
15-02-18, 19:59
Inner and Central Asia is an overlap zone for the R1a1-Z280 and R1a1-Z93 lineages [which] implies that an early differentiation zone of R1a1-M198 conceivably occurred somewhere within the Eurasian Steppes or the Middle East and Caucasus region as they lie between South Asia and Central- and Eastern Europe."
Pamjav, Horolma; Fehér, Tibor; Németh, Endre; Pádár, Zsolt (2012), "Brief communication: new Y-chromosome binary markers improve phylogenetic resolution within haplogroup R1a1", American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 149 (4): 611–615, doi:10.1002/ajpa.22167, PMID 23115110

Milan.M
15-02-18, 20:09
I bet if they test some Avar DNA from Pannonian basin they will find similar make up,steppe confederation of "Scythian Tatar,Uralic" R1a,R1b and N,with others



Tatars

R1a: 33% (Z282: 19%, Z93: 14%)
R1b1b2: 6,0%
N1c1: 13,0%
E1b1a: 4,0%
I2a1: 5%


And many others melting pot.

Interesting they also carry E-V13,which betray a Balkan migration there.

Dibran
16-02-18, 01:09
People are posting this info:

Bela III:R1a-Z93>Z2125>Z2123>Y934 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y934/)

Sample I/3G : J1-Z1842>Y4423>CTS1460 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS1460/)

I can't independently verify it.

Yea I cant confirm it either. The source link never mentions subclade. Hopefully we get some confirmation,.

Zulca
16-02-18, 18:30
R1a is from Scythians, Huns in Hungarian royal line. Árpád dinasty never existed it was Turul dinasty. With Atila the Hun. Turul is a mythical bird from Atilas and Árpáds symbol. Version of iranian Simorgh or mesopotamian Turullu.
3. Bélas mother was Kijevan Rurikid and she has MtDNa h1b.

mszenczi
23-02-18, 13:41
STR loci
King Béla III
my results


DYS19
16
17


DYS 385 a,b
11,13
14,14


DYS 389 I
13
13


DYS 389 II
33
18



DYS 390
25
25


DYS 391
11
11


DYS 392
11
11


DYS 393
13
13


DYS 439
10
10








In the above table I compared my results with the published results of King Béla III (link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-018-0609-7)

So out of the 10 markers I have 6 identical, 2 near hits (19, 385b), only two different: 385a and 389 II.
The scriptures says that the royal family was very tall, in my paternal line everybody is above 190cm.
They say R1A is slavic, but it rather looks like Huns/Avars/Hungarians had a lot of children with slavic women...

My full results were:

According to the report in the Geno 1.0 in 2010 my parental line belong to "R1a1 (m198) haplogroup"



Y Haplogroup,R1a


Terminal Y SNP,L63,


Y SNPs


ysnp,L63,+


Y STRs


ystr,DYS439,10


ystr,DYS426,12


ystr,DYS393,13


ystr,DYS392,11


ystr,DYS391,11


ystr,DYS390,25


ystr,DYS389II,18


ystr,DYS389I,13


ystr,DYS388,12


ystr,DYS385b,14


ystr,DYS385a,14


ystr,DYS19,17

RVBlake
23-02-18, 14:04
One of your ggrandfathers was L-664>S2852? That's very close to my own L-664>S2857. German, you say?

kuzmosi
23-02-18, 17:57
RVBlake!

Now I know the exact position: R1a-L664-S2859. So, my ggrandfather was S2857+ too. The line of descendant is: S2857>S2858>S2852>S2859.

Dear cousin. Do you know your exact position in the YTREE?

I think it is a proto-german origin in my bloodline. The family name is Simon. The earliest known ancestor this line was István (Stephanus) Simon was born 1750 Rimaszombat, Hungary (today is Rimavska Sobota, Slovakia) He was a calvinist priest. I think my earlier Simon ancestors came from somewhere in the North See coast. Maybe from the Netharlands. (The dutch is a calvinist nation too)

Do you know the origin your paternal ancestors?

RVBlake
24-02-18, 14:19
Cousin, my position on the YFull tree is YP943, under L-664. Family Tree DNA lists me as YP5320, downstream from YP943, but the administrators at YFull disagree...I just go with YFull. I have only one match under YP943...He is one of 5 of my Big Y matches at FTDNA. We are all of English origin. My earliest paternal ancestor was John Blake, born in southeastern England app. 1590 and dying there app. 1650. His son came to the U.S. in 1660, starting my American line. It's interesting that you mention Dutch...Martin Voorwinden, who runs the L-664 section at FTDNA's R1a Project, informed me that we share a Most Recent Common Ancestor of app. 1900 BCE, probably in Germany somewhere. Martin is Dutch, and I show several Dutch/Flemish matches at FTDNA's Family Finder. Martin tells me that the earliest L-664 find to date was at the Bergrheinfeld site in Germany, dated to 2500 BCE. The find was L-664>S3479.

kuzmosi
24-02-18, 22:44
Thanks for the information dear cousin. According the YFULL, our last common male ancestor lived 1400 BC (S2857).

So, in the Age of Ehnaton and Tutanhamon, somewhere between Danmark and the Netherlands, on the coast of the North See, lived a man. Some of his sons became english, another sons became dutch, and had a son, who became hungarian for today. Very interesting. I'm grateful for all the information you share on the L664.

I just see it now:We have another contact point. My MtDNA: H16f, but my paternal grandfather was: H4a1a4b.....

RVBlake
24-02-18, 23:22
We (L-664) are an exclusive bunch...Not many of us around. There's a group of them bunched in southwestern England, don't know if they have a common source or not. I show some STR markers that are traditionally Norse, particularly DYS19 and DYS594, unusual for English L-664s. And I have a bunch of Norwegian/Swedish distant matches on YFull, so maybe some Norse mixed there as well.

kuzmosi
25-02-18, 10:42
If I send to you the results, can you tell me which group do I stand closer to?

RVBlake
25-02-18, 13:24
Cousin, I looked over your results and your DYS19 reading is the same as mine. The late Dr. Kalik Wiik asserts that this reading is indicative of Norse ethnicity. I didn't see any reading for DYS594, which reading Dr. Wiik states is a reliable determinant for Scandinavian ethnicity. You may want to Google Dr. Wiik's paper, called "R1a Maps and Tables."

Gyula
28-02-18, 21:57
Hello,
Where does the information: Z93>Z2125>Z2123 come from? The original paper does not refine R1a. Is it from some prediction algorithm??? I am interested in any further information.

mszenczi
07-03-18, 20:06
We Hungarians think about slavs as a rather homogenic set of people, but it is not necessarily true:

"The first written use of the name "Slavs" dates to the sixth century, when the Slavic tribes inhabited a large portion of Central and Eastern Europe. By that century, native Iranian ethnic groups (the Scythians, Sarmatians, and Alans) had been absorbed by the region's Slavic population.[2][3][4][5]
On the south and east, it borders the area of Iranian river names (including the Dniester, the Dnieper and the Don).[49] A connection between Proto-Slavic and Iranian languages is also demonstrated by the earliest layer of loanwords in the former;[43] the Proto-Slavic words for god (*bogъ), demon (*divъ), house (*xata), axe (*toporъ) and dog (*sobaka) are of Scythian origin.[50] The Iranian dialects of the Scythians and Sarmatians influenced Slavic vocabulary during the millennium-long contact between them and early Proto-Slavic.[51]
The eighth-to-third-century BC Chernoles culture, sometimes associated with Herodotus' "Scythian farmers", is "sometimes portrayed as either a state in the development of the Slavic languages or at least some form of late Indo-European ancestral to the evolution of the Slavic stock."[98]"
(source: en_wikipedia_org_wiki_Early_Slavs)

This could explain that the Árpád House kings (III. Béla) belonged to R1A haplogroup which is frequent in Slavic nations too (Ukrain, Poland, Slovakia) thus could mean the relatedness between Hungarians and Scythians/Alans/Sarmatians who were Slavonised

kuzmosi
10-03-18, 19:46
mszenczi

I completely agree with you. I have polish(polak) with my maternal branch (Y chr: R1a-M458-L260-YP415) and many polish people think that they are descendants of the sarmatians or the scythians. The linguistics and the genetics also support his.

Bollox79
20-05-18, 12:44
And just an additive.

I completed all of my 8 great-great-grandfathers Y-haplogroup definition, with the help of their direct male descendants, and the help from YSEQ.

The results:
E1b1b-V13-Z17107*
R1b-U106-DF98-S22069*
R1b-U152-L2-Z49-S8172*
I2A-L621-A1328*
R1a-M458-L260-YP415*
R1a-L664-S2852 (not complete yet)
I1A-L22-CTS11603 (not complete yet)
I2A-L621-Y4460 (not complete yet)

Until today, I thought, I haven't hungarian ancestors. But I read Angela's post, and I found the linked file from Neparaczki, and now I guess, through my german lines (R1a-L664, R1b-U106, I1A-L22) yet I found my hungarian roots. Strange...

kuzmosi,

I noticed R1b-U106 - DF98 in one of your great grandfather's y-lines? The DF98 group is called the King's Cluster (because it contains the House of Wettin from Thuringia from Germany - but the DF98 mutation is an old relation - Bronze Age - to put it in perspective - but still a cool relation! I am in that group because I carry the DF98 mutation etc) and the subject of this pdf maintained by Dr. Iain McDonald here if you didn't know about it. Your GGF is probably in there? If not have whoever is the carrier of that line to join the U106 DNA project at FTDNA and U106 yahoo forum! We need many more testers from Europe and especially Eastern Europe (for example a descendant of DF98 - a burial in the early Unetice culture of near Prague - is DF98 and SNPs S1911 and S1894/S1900 under that)... note this link is to the update... Dr. Iain is still working to update the Wettin part of this document: http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/kings-cluster-draft.pdf

kuzmosi
20-05-18, 21:55
Bollox79!

Thank you, but I know. I talked to Iain about it.

My oldest known ancestor this S22069 line is Janos Dobi born: 1758 (I don't know where) died 26. 01. 1799. Balkany, Szabolcs county, Hungary. I found another Dobi family, also in Balkany. I made a test with a male member of this family, and he was S22069+ too. It means the relationship between the two Dobi family is real, and older than 1758.

We talking to Iain about making a BigY or a Whole Genom Sequence, but it is too expensive for me. If will be a major price reduction, or somebody gets into a part of the cost, I make one. Unfortunately donors are not interested in such things. I'm glad they were willing to give samples. They liked them when I said that: we have a 3000 years old common father with King George V.

I hope to succeed soon.

kuzmosi
21-05-18, 22:38
I just see that Iain placed us on the map. Page 11. Dobi family. It feels good to see the results of my work.

XipeTotek
22-05-18, 18:19
uralic/turkic tribes assimiliated to scythians inside

and we must be know Hungarians and Turks dont have asian genetic today. because asian males dont choice by girls. dominant and high testosterone males always going high on populations.


i think this is reason hungarians and turkey turks why not have y-dna connection with their ancestors

this is same happened in america. latin and black population gonna be more dominant and high on the future.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxpVwBzFAkw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxpVwBzFAkw)

on the future european and american people dont see any connection with their ancestors like us today. middle eastern dominant males, and immigration going to everywhere today europe and all the world going mix

Zulca
01-09-18, 12:15
Hello,
Where does the information: Z93>Z2125>Z2123 come from? The original paper does not refine R1a. Is it from some prediction algorithm??? I am interested in any further information.

it was 3.Béla's SNP, STR subgroup. From a bronze aged Srubna man, found in 2015 near to Volga river . A pre-Scythian mutation, find in Karacaj, balkar , South-Osethia, Afganistan, Volga tatar, India, C. Asia, E Anatolia, N Caucasus:good_job: