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Alpenjager
24-02-18, 15:49
Among the several samples found in the recently published Mathieson et al study is found the sample of a Elite leader individual from the Varna Culture, this ruler was the priest-king of a powerful metallurgical civilisation (the earliest major assemblage of gold artifacts anywhere in the world), with male dominance and the first fully developed hierarchy.
His grave counts with around 1000 pieces of Gold like a War Axe, Bulls and a penis protection. This is the most richest grave in the world at this time period, as far as known.

He is found to be positive for T-M184 equivalent SNPs:
Y3804/FGC1231+
Z7767/FGC1179+

This sample: ANI152 / VAR43 is dated as 6495yBP and his mtDNA is U2

97779775977497739772

Alpenjager
24-02-18, 15:59
9781978297839795

Salento
24-02-18, 16:11
Golden Man
Hope this pic is Legit.
http://badamba.info/live/images/chalcolithic3.jpg

http://badamba.info/english/en_live/en_experimental_archeology.html

davef
24-02-18, 16:13
Hey I saw him as your avatar, salento! I was wondering who he was

Salento
24-02-18, 16:21
Hey I saw him as your avatar, salento! I was wondering who he was

That’s because people I’m my House think that he looks a bit like me.
Later I changed the Avatar again to an older one. (That’s me and Neandy by the way)

(I’m also Y T) [emoji4]

FIREYWOTAN
24-02-18, 16:44
Thank you for spelling out a connective tissue of both the Verna Culture and it's Priest- King. The ability to organizing the facts adds credibility to a search for a point of entry.
The hardest part of organizing my thoughts was answered.

Angela
24-02-18, 20:35
According to Genetiker the Varna "King" was "T~M184 (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-ani152/)".

Don't we have his autosomal make-up from Mathiesen? Ah, here we go...

Wait a minute, this Admixture chart doesn't have a Varna sample labeled ANI152, VAR 43, which is how Genetiker describes it. Is there new labeling in the official paper?

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/pca_west_yamna.png


https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/pca_west_yamna.png

Salento
24-02-18, 21:11
According to Genetiker the Varna "King" was "T~M184 (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-ani152/)".

Don't we have his autosomal make-up from Mathiesen? Ah, here we go...

Wait a minute, this Admixture chart doesn't have a Varna sample labeled ANI152, VAR 43, which is how Genetiker describes it. Is there new labeling in the official paper?

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/pca_west_yamna.png


https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/pca_west_yamna.png

Is it this maybe?
https://i.imgur.com/vCN2BWF_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

Angela
25-02-18, 00:28
Is it this maybe?
https://i.imgur.com/vCN2BWF_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

That's it! Thanks. I wasn't at my laptop and couldn't read it properly on my small device.

It looks to me like some steppe, and two kinds of "western" h/g, yes, but the total is perhaps under 20%?

In looking at the PCA, a Varna sample lands, again, on the Tuscans. I'm definitely going to start calling my Lunigiana and eastern Ligurian half "Tuscan". :) Varna, Globular Amphora, the Iron Age Thracian, and in the post Roman era, even some of the Pannonian locals (the southern ones), have been described as Tuscan like

I wonder if that's the King? Or, given how Tuscans are often modeled as 1/3 "Germanic" like, which I've always thought meant all the more steppe heavy northerners who moved south, maybe it's the Varna sample with more stepp?

On the other PCA in Mathiesen et al, where they put all the samples, am I reading it right and some land in Sicily? Maybe one of those is the "King".

I'm going to try to get a visual of it, but I'm not as good as you. :)

Salento
25-02-18, 03:54
That's it! Thanks. I wasn't at my laptop and couldn't read it properly on my small device.

It looks to me like some steppe, and two kinds of "western" h/g, yes, but the total is perhaps under 20%?

In looking at the PCA, a Varna sample lands, again, on the Tuscans. I'm definitely going to start calling my Lunigiana and eastern Ligurian half "Tuscan". :) Varna, Globular Amphora, the Iron Age Thracian, and in the post Roman era, even some of the Pannonian locals (the southern ones), have been described as Tuscan like

I wonder if that's the King? Or, given how Tuscans are often modeled as 1/3 "Germanic" like, which I've always thought meant all the more steppe heavy northerners who moved south, maybe it's the Varna sample with more stepp?

On the other PCA in Mathiesen et al, where they put all the samples, am I reading it right and some land in Sicily? Maybe one of those is the "King".

I'm going to try to get a visual of it, but I'm not as good as you. :)

In this context, every-time I read Tuscans, I always assume a share ancestry with Ancient Etruscans.

Those Numbers are very small. [emoji4]

davef
25-02-18, 07:08
Wait, what does Tuscan like actually mean? Don't Tuscans vary? Is being Tuscan like simply a matter of being genetically similar to any Tuscan group, whether Southern Tuscan, northern, or in between?

A bit confused

Salento
25-02-18, 14:00
Wait, what does Tuscan like actually mean? Don't Tuscans vary? Is being Tuscan like simply a matter of being genetically similar to any Tuscan group, whether Southern Tuscan, northern, or in between?

A bit confused
I spent over a year in Florence.
Appearance wise, IMO most Tuscans are a mix: 3/4 Mediterranean, 1/4 Celt.
Matteo Renzi - Former Italian PM, and Mayor of Florence.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Matteo_Renzi_2.jpg
Roberto Benigni
https://i.imgur.com/JbBLq3e_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

Salento
25-02-18, 15:41
Sile input in this Thread would be Highly Appreciated. He has extended Knowledge of the T-M184 Haplogroup!

Angela
25-02-18, 18:52
I spent over a year in Florence.
Appearance wise, IMO most Tuscans are a mix: 3/4 Mediterranean, 1/4 Celt.
Matteo Renzi - Former Italian PM, and Mayor of Florence.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Matteo_Renzi_2.jpg (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Matteo_Renzi_2.jpg)
Roberto Benigni
https://i.imgur.com/JbBLq3e_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

We have the genetics, no need to guess, unless you mean strictly in terms of appearance?

Matteo Renzi looks nothing like a Celt, and shows nothing of that influence, if that's what you were going for, and furthermore most of his ancestors are from the Marche, which is quite different. He looks really Central Italian to me, not specifically Tuscan.

Also, Benigni, whom I adore, is hardly "typical" of more "Mediterranean" looking Tuscans, although he's maybe a funnier looking version of Dante.
https://www.focus.it/fileflash/storia/images/Dante.jpg


There is certainly a range among Tuscans, however. These are the ones that immediately come to my mind.

Yves Montand:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5052/5462363979_8cc58cd757_z.jpg

Luigi Ugolini:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Luigi_Ugolini._poeta.scrittore.Fiorentino.jpg

Paolo Ruffini:
http://www.luccalive.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Paolo.jpghttps://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/519xdvHBvOL._SX300_QL70_.jpg


Gianna Nannini when she was young:
https://cdn2.greatsong.net/photo/ext/gianna-nannini-186861.jpg

Oriana Fallaci:
https://www.dead-people.com/static/people/images/2016/09/Oriana-Fallaci-Italian-journalist.jpg

Irene Grandi:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Irene_Grandi_2_cropped.jpg

Stefania Sandrelli:
https://78.media.tumblr.com/db5f71380f3ca6ba5b04e85b2412fbf3/tumblr_mmxarwSqgw1rij8i9o1_500.jpg

Massimiliano Allegri-maybe closer to Varna man?
http://www.litalianews.it/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/allegri-Juventus-ln101.jpg

Maybe more what you're thinking of when you say showing more of the "Celtic" influence? (although it could very well be Italic influence as well) It's my impression that these "types" are more common in the northwestern part of Toscana proper, like Livorno, Viareggio, etc., and that people get more "Mediterranean" as you go toward Lazio. However, that's not always the case. There are really no hard and fast rules for this sort of thing in Italy: you can always find exceptions. Zeffirelli, for example, was born around Firenze, while Allegri comes from the northwest.

Jovanotti:
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/4a/fd/8a/4afd8a6ae6e9c0fd2e4417364e9ccaf3.jpg

Marcello Lippi when he was young and a player:
http://golcalcio.it/Lippiqg3.JPG

Franco Zeffirelli:

https://www.biography.com/.image/t_share/MTE5NTU2MzE2NDEzMTk5ODgz/franco-zeffirelli-9540630-1-402.jpg

As for Sile, if he had the slightest modicum of civility, he would be still here, even if he has a reputation for posting material which is totally incorrect and confused.

Salento
25-02-18, 19:21
We have the genetics, no need to guess, unless you mean strictly in terms of appearance?


I do mean In Term of Appearances, not genetics.
Lorenzo De Medici:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4f/Lorenzo_de%27_Medici-ritratto_face.jpg
La Gioconda:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Mona_Lisa%2C_by_Leonardo_da_Vinci%2C_from_C2RMF_re touched.jpg/1200px-Mona_Lisa%2C_by_Leonardo_da_Vinci%2C_from_C2RMF_re touched.jpg

Pax Augusta
25-02-18, 19:29
I do mean In Term of Appearances, not genetics.
Lorenzo De Medici:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4f/Lorenzo_de%27_Medici-ritratto_face.jpg


If you think that portrait is realistic or you're either a ***** and just another anthrotard.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/29/Verrocchio_Lorenzo_de_Medici.jpg/1200px-Verrocchio_Lorenzo_de_Medici.jpg

Angela
25-02-18, 19:33
In this context, every-time I read Tuscans, I always assume a share ancestry with Ancient Etruscans.

Those Numbers are very small. [emoji4]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Varna and Globular Amphora are long before any proposed migration of people from Lydia to Toscana in the first millennium BC.

If they're really like Tuscans, then the Etruscans would be basically autochthonous.

Salento
25-02-18, 19:42
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Varna and Globular Amphora are long before any proposed migration of people from Lydia to Toscana in the first millennium BC.

If they're really like Tuscans, then the Etruscans would be basically autochthonous.

I meant the Numbers in the picture are very small, and hard to read. We couldn’t see it. lol

Pax Augusta
25-02-18, 19:43
I spent over a year in Florence.
Appearance wise, IMO most Tuscans are a mix: 3/4 Mediterranean, 1/4 Celt.

Florence has now not less non-native people than other big and medium Italian cities, becoming more similar to Rome or Milan or Turin, or any other Italian city that has received large migrations, especially from southern Italy. The Italian demography north of Naples has changed everywhere in Italy in the last 50-70 years due to domestic migrations. Tuscans do have more Mediterranean types than north Italians from the the Alps and Prealps, but it's much less noticeable with north Italian people from the Po Valley.

Anthropological maps realized shortly after the unification of Italy and then before the great demographic changes occurred in Italy in the last 150 years. According to the first map, there is a bit more blondism in Tuscany and other central Italian regions than in the eastern part of Emilia-Romagna, lower north Italian Po Valley.

Blondism in Italy

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/BiasuttiMappa.png/643px-BiasuttiMappa.png


https://i.imgur.com/KKV8IbP.png

https://i.imgur.com/3j5V6nA.gif

Height in Italy 1879-1883

http://b2.ifrm.com/67/29/0/p524781/Daniele_Malanima_stature_ottocento.jpeg

Roberto Benigni is a comedian, hardly comedians are average faces. Roberto Benigni with his wife who is a north Italian actress from Romagna. Anyway, Benigni is not a Med type.

https://i.imgur.com/91IUqyD.jpg

Angela
25-02-18, 19:51
Florence has now not less non-native people than other big and medium Italian cities, becoming more similar to Rome or Milan or Turin, or any other Italian city that has received large migrations, especially from southern Italy. The Italian demography north of Naples has changed everywhere in Italy in the last 50-70 years due to domestic migrations. Tuscans do have more Mediterranean types than north Italians from the the Alps and Prealps, but it's much less noticeable with north Italian people from the Po Valley.

Anthropological maps realized shortly after the unification of Italy and then before the great demographic changes occurred in Italy in the last 150 years. According to the first map, there is a bit more blondism in Tuscany and other central Italian regions than in the eastern part of Emilia-Romagna, lower north Italian Po Valley.

Blondism in Italy

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/BiasuttiMappa.png/643px-BiasuttiMappa.png


https://i.imgur.com/KKV8IbP.png

https://i.imgur.com/3j5V6nA.gif

Height in Italy 1879-1883

http://b2.ifrm.com/67/29/0/p524781/Daniele_Malanima_stature_ottocento.jpeg

Roberto Benigni is a comedian, hardly comedians are average faces. Roberto Benigni with his wife who is a north Italian actress from Romagna. Anyway, Benigni is not a Med type.

https://i.imgur.com/91IUqyD.jpg

Exactly right, Pax.

Salento
25-02-18, 19:53
If you think that portrait is realistic or you're either a ***** and just another anthrotard.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/29/Verrocchio_Lorenzo_de_Medici.jpg/1200px-Verrocchio_Lorenzo_de_Medici.jpg
I had not intention to offend anybody, and I don’t believe I did.
Che cosa ho detto per meritare questo?
(What did I say to merit this?)
Va bè dai, non fa niente.
(It’s ok, it doesn’t matter.)

Ygorcs
25-02-18, 19:59
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Varna and Globular Amphora are long before any proposed migration of people from Lydia to Toscana in the first millennium BC.

If they're really like Tuscans, then the Etruscans would be basically autochthonous.

This - that they were basically autochthonous, though not necessarily from Tuscany originally, maybe somewhere north or east from it - looks an increasingly promising hypothesis IMO.

Angela
25-02-18, 20:00
I meant the Numbers in the picture are very small, and hard to read. We couldn’t see it. lol

That wasn't the part of your post to which I was referring. It was this:


In this context, every-time I read Tuscans, I always assume a share ancestry with Ancient Etruscans.

I didn't know what you meant by it.

As I said, Varna and Globular Amphora are thousands of years before any proposed migration of Lydians to Toscana in the first millennium BC.

So, if those people were really already "Tuscan" like, then that might indicate that if any such migration did take place, it didn't change the genetics of the people very much.

Pax Augusta
25-02-18, 20:08
Matteo Renzi looks nothing like a Celt, and shows nothing of that influence, if that's what you were going for, and furthermore most of his ancestors are from the Marche, which is quite different. He looks really Central Italian to me, not specifically Tuscan.

Really? Never heard of Renzi who has ancestors from Marche.

It has been recently revealed that Franco Zeffirelli in his paternal line is one of the Leonardo Da Vinci's descendants.

http://www.play4movie.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Franco-Zeffirelli-%C3%A8-discendente-di-Leonardo-Da-Vinci.jpg

http://www.adnkronos.com/rf/image_size_1280x960/Pub/AdnKronos/Assets/Immagini/zeffirelli_franco_inf.jpg

Salento
25-02-18, 20:11
That wasn't the part of your post to which I was referring. It was this:



I didn't know what you meant by it.

As I said, Varna and Globular Amphora are thousands of years before any proposed migration of Lydians to Toscana in the first millennium BC.

So, if those people were really already "Tuscan" like, then that might indicate that if any such migration did take place, it didn't change the genetics of the people very much.

In this context, It only meant that when somebody mention Tuscans it’s not always easy to understand f they also mean Etruscans too.
Sorry from my part for not been clear.

Salento
25-02-18, 20:21
Really? Never heard of Renzi who has ancestors from Marche.

It has been recently revealed that Franco Zeffirelli in his paternal line is one of the Leonardo Da Vinci's descendants.

http://www.play4movie.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Franco-Zeffirelli-%C3%A8-discendente-di-Leonardo-Da-Vinci.jpg

http://www.adnkronos.com/rf/image_size_1280x960/Pub/AdnKronos/Assets/Immagini/zeffirelli_franco_inf.jpg
Nobody knows how Leonardo looks like for sure. All the Portraits out there are speculations.

Angela
25-02-18, 20:23
This - that they were basically autochthonous, though not necessarily from Tuscany originally, maybe somewhere north or east from it - looks an increasingly promising hypothesis IMO.

Another possibility is that the elites of the first millennium BC were a mix of prior elites with a more "northern" orientation because of input from various prior "Indo-European" speaking migrants from over the Alps, locals absorbed over time, and perhaps some input from the southeast. I'm definitely not sure that this input, perhaps including J2, of which there is quite a bit in Toscana, came in the first millennium BC.

I have been saying for years that I think it will turn out that J2 (and bearers of other haplogroups as well) who carried more Caucasus like ancestry started entering Europe long before the first millennium BC, starting, indeed in the late Neolithic.

I think I may be right, although when precisely this reached Italy has to wait for some more ancient dna from Italy.

From Roy King:
"Focusing on the Eastern Mediterranean and Aegean areas: The late Neolithic Peloponnese samples are shifted toward BA Anatolia and Chalcolithic Anatolia with presumptive CHG input. The earlier Neolithic sample from the Peloponnese aligns with the early Greek Neolithic samples. The later samples are about 4000 BCE in dating and also cluster with Minoan Crete samples. The one Minoan--I9130--who is G2a in Y chromosome looks like the Early Greek Neolithic samples; the rest cluster with the late Peloponnese and the late Anatolian (Chalcolthic/BA) samples. The data strongly suggest a movement circa 4000 BCE from Anatolia to mainland Greece, perhaps associated with J2a1 and the pre-Greek substrate languages (-ss- and -nth1 toponyms).

This would explain why some of these samples are "like" modern Tuscans despite the fact that modern Tuscans supposedly have excess "Caucasus".

Angela
25-02-18, 20:29
Sorry, content deleted.

Pax Augusta
25-02-18, 20:41
Nobody knows how Leonardo looks like for sure. All the Portraits out there are speculations.

This is widely accepted as self portrait of Leonardo da Vinci.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Leonardo_self.jpg

and this is accepted as a portrait of Leonardo done by his pupil Francesco Melzi.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Francesco_Melzi_-_Portrait_of_Leonardo_-_WGA14795.jpg

Angela
25-02-18, 21:02
This is widely accepted as self portrait of Leonardo da Vinci.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Leonardo_self.jpg

and this is accepted as a portrait of Leonardo done by his pupil Francesco Melzi.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Francesco_Melzi_-_Portrait_of_Leonardo_-_WGA14795.jpg

Thank you for interjecting some sanity, here.

Marcello Lippi should have someone do his genealogy and see if he's a descendent of Fra Lippo Lippi. :)

Self portrait of Filippino Lippi:
http://media.kunst-fuer-alle.de/img/41/m/41_00575081~fra-filippo-lippi_selfportrait.jpg

http://static.weltsport.net/bilder/spieler/gross/5497.jpg

I did see it in an article that Renzi has ancestry from the Marche, but I can't find it now. Maybe the author was wrong.

eastara
26-02-18, 01:32
Varna samples do not fall over modern Tuscans, but at no man land of modern Europeans, where most of the Neolithic samples are. As far as I can see Varna are the red outlined orange squares and probably only Varna outlier, who has more Yamnaya falls over the Tuscans. In fact the Balkan Bronze age (blue filled red circles) is all over the Tuscans.

https://media.nature.com/lw926/nature-assets/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/images_supplementary/nature25778-sf1.jpg

Regarding the racial type, Genetiker just released the pigmentation from the published genomes. Again only Varna outlier is blond/blue eyed, the other was normal dark hair/brown eyes for the EEF. However there are other Neolithic samples that are blue eyed and even blond. Not sure if it is from admixture with local WHD/EHD or it already existed in Western Anatolia before migrating to Europe.
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018/02/24/pigmentation-of-ancient-southeastern-europeans/

Angela
26-02-18, 02:37
Varna samples do not fall over modern Tuscans, but at no man land of modern Europeans, where most of the Neolithic samples are. As far as I can see Varna are the red outlined orange squares and probably only Varna outlier, who has more Yamnaya falls over the Tuscans. In fact the Balkan Bronze age (blue filled red circles) is all over the Tuscans.

https://media.nature.com/lw926/nature-assets/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/images_supplementary/nature25778-sf1.jpg

Regarding the racial type, Genetiker just released the pigmentation from the published genomes. Again only Varna outlier is blond/blue eyed, the other was normal dark hair/brown eyes for the EEF. However there are other Neolithic samples that are blue eyed and even blond. Not sure if it is from admixture with local WHD/EHD or it already existed in Western Anatolia before migrating to Europe.
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018/02/24/pigmentation-of-ancient-southeastern-europeans/

Thanks, Eastara,

Yes, I wondered upthread if maybe the Varna outlier with quite a bit of Yamnaya was the one who landed near Tuscans, given the genetic make-up of modern Tuscans, and not the "King" or chieftan or wealthiest man, however we would define him.

I need someone who isn't slightly colorblind to read these for me. :)

Which WHGs would have been near Varna? Would it have been Ukraine samples? Does Genetiker have pigmentation data for them?

I know there was a blonde, blue-eyed Neolithic sample that Gamba et al showed quite a while ago. KO1 would have been the WHG in the area, yes?
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/e2/f5/86/e2f58637e92f5766da4525af77d1cc0e--iron-age-communication.jpg

I know there was at least one in Anatolia.

Then there are all the Globular Amphora ones. I don't know which particular hunter-gatherers they would have encountered.

All of this said, I don't know what algorithm Genetiker is using, with how many snps.

davef
26-02-18, 04:21
Varna samples do not fall over modern Tuscans, but at no man land of modern Europeans, where most of the Neolithic samples are. As far as I can see Varna are the red outlined orange squares and probably only Varna outlier, who has more Yamnaya falls over the Tuscans. In fact the Balkan Bronze age (blue filled red circles) is all over the Tuscans.

https://media.nature.com/lw926/nature-assets/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/images_supplementary/nature25778-sf1.jpg

Regarding the racial type, Genetiker just released the pigmentation from the published genomes. Again only Varna outlier is blond/blue eyed, the other was normal dark hair/brown eyes for the EEF. However there are other Neolithic samples that are blue eyed and even blond. Not sure if it is from admixture with local WHD/EHD or it already existed in Western Anatolia before migrating to Europe.
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018/02/24/pigmentation-of-ancient-southeastern-europeans/

There's a Sicilian like Iron Age Balkan as well, it's the red dot with the green dot inscribed in it. The other Iron Age balkans are, um, with the various Neolithic farmers directly below the Sicilians? My eyes hurt

Angela
26-02-18, 04:56
Has anyone checked the burial context of those Iron Age Balkan samples? Did Mathiesen et al provide it in the paper? Maybe I'm spoiled by Amorim et al, but without something like that how do we know how they fit in that time and place?

One of them was included in a prior paper. He was buried in a pit and it seems as if he was some type of sacrifice. At the time I speculated he was a local enslaved by the incoming Indo-Europeans.

As I say, I don't know anything about the context of the others.

Alpenjager
26-02-18, 07:47
All of you should relativize these Mathieson et al autosomal results.

If you take a look into the numbers of the genomes, you will see quickly that Varna Outlier have 14 times more information than Varna Elite Leader. We can't talk about autosomal "FACTS" with a BAM file with less than 30k SNPs and mostly 1-2 reads/SNP

The Varna Outlier female is in fact a reliable genome, ~400k but not the autosomal results of Varna Elite leader. He still could be blond perfectly because most of his linked SNPs have not been sequenced yet.

eastara
26-02-18, 09:36
Has anyone checked the burial context of those Iron Age Balkan samples? Did Mathiesen et al provide it in the paper? Maybe I'm spoiled by Amorim et al, but without something like that how do we know how they fit in that time and place?

One of them was included in a prior paper. He was buried in a pit and it seems as if he was some type of sacrifice. At the time I speculated he was a local enslaved by the incoming Indo-Europeans.

As I say, I don't know anything about the context of the others.

Yes, a detailed context with original photos of the excavations are given in the Supplementary Data:
https://media.nature.com/original/nature-assets/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/nature25778-s2.pdf

It seems the Bulgarian Iron Age was accidentally included into the Neolithic/Chalcolithic samples from Dzhulyunitza. No indication this young woman could be a sacrifice.

The Early Neolithic settlement of Dzhulyunitsa-Smardesh is located in north central Bulgaria,near the slanting northern slopes of the Pre-Balkan, where it is conterminal with the Danubianplain. This area is part of the Middle Yantra river valley which belongs to the Lower Danubecatchment. The site is situated on the first unflooded terrace, in a field called Smardesh, at analtitude of between 70 and 77 m. It is 4 km south of the current location of the Yantra and 2-3km west of its tributaries - the rivers Stara and Zlatarishka. The Early Neolithc site occupies approximately 10 hectares, decreasing in its final phase to ~0.5 ha.4,5 Dzhulyunitsa-Smardeshhas been excavated from 2001 up to present, revealing that the terrace was inhabited throughall periods. Graves were unearthed dating to the Late Iron Age, Early Bronze Age, LateChalcolithic and Early Neolithic. The Late Chalcolithic graves probably belong to anecropolis situated SE of the Chalcolithic settlement.

Ÿ I5769 / No 8 (Iron Age, grave 9)Sub-adult female. This Iron Age burial was found in an oval pit in sq. 3611. The skeleton inflexed position and is turned to the east. Orientation of the body is SE-NW, with the head toSE. The grave inventory consists of ornamental beads and 21 metal (probably copper)ornaments smaller than 5 mm.

Angela
27-02-18, 14:18
I went back and re-read that section. I don't understand why some people have concluded this sample represents a new wave of migrants from Anatolia or other areas of the Mid-east. There's nothing in the archaeological context to indicate that from what I can see.

Salento
28-02-18, 22:28
Migration Map of T-M184
(Thread of The genomic history of Southeastern Europe-Mathiesen need/s this little map too - imho)
https://i.imgur.com/qbESOwz_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium
What’s Interesting is that at some point split in 4. It goes To Europe, Asia, and goes back towards North Africa, and the Horn of Africa.

Alpenjager
28-02-18, 22:55
Migration Map of T-M184
(Thread of The genomic history of Southeastern Europe-Mathiesen need/s this little map too - imho)
https://i.imgur.com/qbESOwz_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium
What’s Interesting is that at some point split in 4. It goes To Europe, Asia, North Africa, and towards the Horn of Africa.

This is an outdated map. There is nothing like a split in 4. please see my tree: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Haplogroup_T-M184_tree.png

Even is thought that T1a1 and T1a2 are splited separated from T1a3.

Salento
28-02-18, 23:01
This is an outdated map. There is nothing like a split in 4. please see my tree: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Haplogroup_T-M184_tree.png

Even is thought that T1a1 and T1a2 are splited separated from T1a3.

Migrations vs Subclades Mutations.
Got this from 23andme V5 more o less couple of month ago as part of my results.
Thanks (Your tree Shows me as Europe Middle Bronze Age) [emoji2]
This is what NatGeo Helix got.
https://i.imgur.com/i9DE14i_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

Alpenjager
01-03-18, 19:22
Migrations vs Subclades Mutations.
Got this from 23andme V5 more o less couple of month ago as part of my results.
Thanks (Your tree Shows me as Europe Middle Bronze Age) [emoji2]
This is what NatGeo Helix got.
https://i.imgur.com/i9DE14i_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

Al of these maps has a very poor research behind it. Too limited references. Don't take into account them. I have talked with 23andMe team some years ago and they use close to nothing to make these maps. Genographic project also have outdated maps.

FIREYWOTAN
01-03-18, 21:42
The amount of information that we currently have at our fingertips seems to open our minds to a field of possibilities. I'm starting my second month and all I can say is thank you for sharing the high and lows of knowing about where to start.

Salento
03-03-18, 16:36
Wait, what does Tuscan like actually mean? Don't Tuscans vary? Is being Tuscan like simply a matter of being genetically similar to any Tuscan group, whether Southern Tuscan, northern, or in between?

A bit confused
IMO, a Tuscan mean: an Individual with more or less North/Center Italy + Etruscan Ancestry.
Some on my results specifically single out the Tuscans, asserting that I match the reference DNA from Tuscans individuals with Italian Ancestry. (In other results I also match the Center and South Italians.)
https://public.ch.files.1drv.com/y4pPjNjSrtW2YS6rq7k-A4h2tMzxIQjoVyJ5vmcOwk3Hul-xOSXsvXtxgoW0FDWt1y1F6P0oBwhubPY9xHhHiGttSK3kQpLMZ JGbxLNVSqycUmSungyKBpqta_xa_arOvI3gS7lyvz0dP54kPvm QbbSXntxwyoUtK_68Tzxt3St0ppe3yLiejhZYbdXs8DNBSq1/IMG_5747.jpg?psid=1

Angela
03-03-18, 17:52
You mean these Etruscans? :)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1rfyRUeQKSE/VUp1FtC48DI/AAAAAAAAKE0/aprJv89-94k/s1600/etruscans.jpg

Salento
03-03-18, 18:15
I don’t Know, it’s all confusing to me, all DNA companies seems to a degree to contradict themselves. I give up, and go away for a while!
[emoji4]

Angela
03-03-18, 18:38
I don’t Know, it’s all confusing to me, all DNA companies seems to a degree to contradict themselves. I give up, and go away for a while!
[emoji4]

Stick with academic papers and you'll be fine. :)

Alpenjager
20-03-18, 21:20
I got GEDmatch autosomal results for Var43 Unreliable really, because there are less than 11k SNPs, but anyway and as a curiosity I will post here:

GEDROSIA Near East Neolithic K13 Admixture Proportions

Anatolia-Aegean Neolithic------------------36%
East European HG---------------------------29%
Iran Neolithic-----------------------------------15%
Natufian-----------------------------------------11%
Karitiana------------------------------------------8%

Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Anatolia_ChL 22.89

Salento
20-03-18, 21:56
I got GEDmatch autosomal results for Var43 Unreliable really, because there are less than 11k SNPs, but anyway and as a curiosity I will post here:

GEDROSIA Near East Neolithic K13 Admixture Proportions

Anatolia-Aegean Neolithic------------------36%
East European HG---------------------------29%
Iran Neolithic-----------------------------------15%
Natufian-----------------------------------------11%
Karitiana------------------------------------------8%

Single Population Sharing:
#Population (source)Distance
1Anatolia_ChL22.89

Do you know the Gedmatch Kit Numbers of var43 and the others that you posted on the Y T in Germany ? Thanks a lot if you post them.

Alpenjager
20-03-18, 22:21
Do you know the Gedmatch Kit Numbers of var43 and the others that you posted on the Y T in Germany ? Thanks a lot if you post them.



Z002783
ANI152 (VAR43)






Z017041
I0700 Malak Preslavets





Z113504
I1108 Malak Preslavets

Salento
20-03-18, 22:23
Z002783
ANI152 (VAR43)






Z017041
I0700 Malak Preslavets





Z113504
I1108 Malak Preslavets



Thanks for the Kit numbers Alpenjager. :)

Salento
20-03-18, 22:55
Golden Man (Var43) Eurogenes K36 Results. As Alpenjager stated earlier the Kit has only 11K snp’s, Just for Curiosity. [emoji3]
https://public.ch.files.1drv.com/y4pKYeK0JMFyQjcY4UEm0SJdp8lns2m_zG2lQKABjh4OSOpnxZ PBhVLX8-AwKHDgvIyz5aAchrGlvADyNkIVApNm3G_x2Hh01U2m0hcQ-ex2Lwdc4TwRsHd1-ZUbm3frJRZcjySw_rAni5m_SlXLJ5JADDffeaprr0XCf3Bz1QF U40uF_rL2aH5mOjaAIIXfZot/IMG_5976.jpg?psid=1

Salento
20-03-18, 22:59
Golden Man (Var43) Eurogenes K36 Results. As Alpenjager stated earlier the Kit has only 11K snp’s, Just for Curiosity. [emoji3]
https://public.ch.files.1drv.com/y4pKYeK0JMFyQjcY4UEm0SJdp8lns2m_zG2lQKABjh4OSOpnxZ PBhVLX8-AwKHDgvIyz5aAchrGlvADyNkIVApNm3G_x2Hh01U2m0hcQ-ex2Lwdc4TwRsHd1-ZUbm3frJRZcjySw_rAni5m_SlXLJ5JADDffeaprr0XCf3Bz1QF U40uF_rL2aH5mOjaAIIXfZot/IMG_5976.jpg?psid=1

lol this Fossil scores more Italian than me. (I’m 27.65 IT on K36)

Salento
21-03-18, 04:00
https://public.ch.files.1drv.com/y4pXH0Dx3FvdsmUvK7AV0zj4kiRSSYPCguCAh1DgWEqJZseH1G uYh3bAyqS8JHx_QiZt1MRq4pwVFONd4ty1Bp7L4ZrsNWQywVyg w997_IjZi2rzUZjbllwqb6qiVlAvcTEoq8onuw1AU3_773Tohl gloFF_4-cVZH-jGEoYmHQrRT8Mz5qgmFPF7Qdl7Q8OrrX/IMG_5655.JPG?psid=1Golden Man var43 puntDNAL K10 Ancient
Kit Z002783 (11K SNP’s only - limited accuracy)

Admix Results (sorted):

#PopulationPercent
1ENF60.72
2WHG29.03
3CHG10.25

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source)Distance
1Sardinian10.58
2Sicilian18.4
3Italian_South21.11
4Sephardic_Jew21.34
5Tuscan22.18
6Spanish_Southwest22.31
7Ashkenazi_Jew24.14
8Italian_North24.33
9Albanian25.63
10Spanish_Northeast25.71
11Moroccan26.32
12Greek26.38
13Tunisian26.64
14Cypriot26.97
15Lebanese30.55
16Egyptian30.67
17Basque_Spanish30.75
18Jordanian31.13
19Algerian31.16
20Bulgarian31.35

Sile
20-04-18, 23:45
a bit on the varna gold

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2nf52u

Salento
21-04-18, 04:12
a bit on the varna gold

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2nf52u

Interesting video. After the Flood, the few survivors spread all over. Just like the Y T.

nancyburson
13-03-19, 21:27
How do you know Zeffirelli is a J2? I have heard that he is only related to Da Vinci by marriage.

Thank you

BMW
22-11-19, 22:11
Among the several samples found in the recently published Mathieson et al study is found the sample of a Elite leader individual from the Varna Culture, this ruler was the priest-king of a powerful metallurgical civilisation (the earliest major assemblage of gold artifacts anywhere in the world), with male dominance and the first fully developed hierarchy.
His grave counts with around 1000 pieces of Gold like a War Axe, Bulls and a penis protection. This is the most richest grave in the world at this time period, as far as known.

He is found to be positive for T-M184 equivalent SNPs:
Y3804/FGC1231+
Z7767/FGC1179+

This sample: ANI152 / VAR43 is dated as 6495yBP and his mtDNA is U2

97779775977497739772

Hello to all!

I have the above mentioned Y3804/FGC1231+ and Z7767/FGC1179+ SNPs in my Y Tree.
What significance should I read into that?

Salento
22-11-19, 22:58
Hello to all!

I have the above mentioned Y3804/FGC1231+ and Z7767/FGC1179+ SNPs in my Y Tree.
What significance should I read into that?

All y Ts should be positive with Golden Man,

T-M184 is the Top Dog, the Father of all of us, I think.

Papà below: lol

http://badamba.info/live/images/chalcolithic1.jpg

BMW
23-11-19, 00:04
All y Ts should be positive with Golden Man,

T-M184 is the Top Dog, the Father of all of us, I think.

Papà below: lol

http://badamba.info/live/images/chalcolithic1.jpg

ooooo my Papaaaaa :77: :innocent:

BMW
23-11-19, 00:26
http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html appears to have CTS8489 right where the Elite leader of the Varna Culture ( western Black sea coast ) would have been.

BMW
23-11-19, 13:59
"All y Ts should be positive with Golden Man,

T-M184 is the Top Dog, the Father of all of us, I think..."

Wouldn't it be just as probable for him to be a brother or uncle of the "Golden Man"?...or am I missing something?

Salento
23-11-19, 14:59
"All y Ts should be positive with Golden Man,

T-M184 is the Top Dog, the Father of all of us, I think..."

Wouldn't it be just as probable for him to be a brother or uncle of the "Golden Man"?...or am I missing something?

The Varna sample is way too young to be directly related to the first T-M184, by thousands of years.

The T-M184 that you posted is the Golden Man from the Varna culture.

the image I posted is supposedly from a real recreation.

Golden Man is the nickname of ANI152 VAR 43

... Elite leader individual from the Varna Culture ...

... The oldest gold treasure in the world, dating from 4,600 BC to 4,200 BC ...


http://badamba.info/live/images/chalcolithic0.jpg

http://badamba.info/live/images/chalcolithic1.jpg


http://badamba.info/live/images/chalcolithic3.jpg


http://badamba.info/english/en_live/en_experimental_archeology.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_Necropolis

BMW
23-11-19, 18:54
I get all of that....for the most part.
Just wondering if sharing SNPs with him tends to favor more towards him being a direct ancestor....as opposed to an incredibly distant "cousin".

BMW
23-11-19, 21:28
This deals with the subject of Anatolia, in reference to Varna:

https://indo-european.eu/tag/varna/

torzio
23-11-19, 22:00
This deals with the subject of Anatolia, in reference to Varna:

https://indo-european.eu/tag/varna/

You need to include this
https://indo-european.eu/2019/02/the-genetic-and-cultural-barrier-of-the-pontic-caspian-steppe-forest-steppe-ecotone/

The wallacian plain has a few ydna T from the neolithic , not including varna

BMW
23-11-19, 22:24
You need to include this
https://indo-european.eu/2019/02/the-genetic-and-cultural-barrier-of-the-pontic-caspian-steppe-forest-steppe-ecotone/

The wallacian plain has a few ydna T from the neolithic , not including varna

Thanks for that, torzio.

torzio
17-12-19, 06:02
There is still no morereads on Golden man except M184 snp

There is reads on the third neolithic karsdorf T sample KARS537.....using BWA MEM

he is the same as the other 2 samples I0795 and I0797 ...which is T-Y63197 ( x Y152024)