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Aspar
02-03-18, 13:24
Hi there,
I recently found out that I belong to E-Y16729 haplogroup.
It seems that this haplogroup is very rare and until recently it was found in British and Arabs only.
Last year this haplogroup was found for the first time in the Balkans in a Bulgarian man.
Now I am the second one with this haplo in the Balkans.
Interestingly, I don't form a cluster with neither of those groups, nor with the Bulgarian.
My closest match on 67 str markers with genetic distance of 4 is a man with E-M35 haplogroup who had put both Albania and Greece as his ancestral homeland but unfortunately he isn't tested further.
Right now, I am E-Y16729* on the YFULL tree.
I would like to know more about the migration path of this haplogroup and how does it happen to be so widespread, from the Balkans to the British Isles and to the Persian gulf?

Shetop
03-03-18, 00:55
I don't have an answer to your question but I want to say that for me E-Y16729 is probably the most intriguing subbranch of E-V13.
If we would decipher history of E-Y16729 then it would be much easier to understand history of the whole E-V13.

Aspurg
06-07-18, 17:35
Hello, very interesting subclade this is. First it's rare. Secondly as you have mentioned before, you show matches with Aromanians from Dukasi and Stip (2006 study). I used to think these were S7461 (yet they still have other haplotypes that fit well there) until your clade showed up, the S7461 clade they have matches with is from England and in it's Balkan form from Bulgaria it has other non-matching values (like dys385), so considering that and your location these Aromanians seem to be Y16729.

More importantly your point of origin is village Konsko near Gevgelija, in 19th century. This village, according to known Bulgarian ethnographer Vasil Kanchov's book "Makedoniya", was in 1900 ethnically 100 % Vlach, along with neighboring villages Huma and Sermenin. Kanchov had a Bulgarian POV when it comes to Slavic population in Macedonia but he is very reliable when it comes to linguistic & religious composition.

Interestingly these are Megleno-Romanians. This study of Aromanians did not cover Megleno-Romanians but it would appear that they share some ancestry with other Aromanian groups.

Generally about this clade I would say that it does seem to have Central-Eastern affiliation on the Balkans. This Bulgarian also seems distant to you. Arab branch doesn't seem old but it was obviously present in that area at least in late antiquity. It is also interesting that the Isles branch Y16721 has 2 distant clades.

Aspar
12-07-18, 21:32
Hello, very interesting subclade this is. First it's rare. Secondly as you have mentioned before, you show matches with Aromanians from Dukasi and Stip (2006 study). I used to think these were S7461 (yet they still have other haplotypes that fit well there) until your clade showed up, the S7461 clade they have matches with is from England and in it's Balkan form from Bulgaria it has other non-matching values (like dys385), so considering that and your location these Aromanians seem to be Y16729.

More importantly your point of origin is village Konsko near Gevgelija, in 19th century. This village, according to known Bulgarian ethnographer Vasil Kanchov's book "Makedoniya", was in 1900 ethnically 100 % Vlach, along with neighboring villages Huma and Sermenin. Kanchov had a Bulgarian POV when it comes to Slavic population in Macedonia but he is very reliable when it comes to linguistic & religious composition.

Interestingly these are Megleno-Romanians. This study of Aromanians did not cover Megleno-Romanians but it would appear that they share some ancestry with other Aromanian groups.

Generally about this clade I would say that it does seem to have Central-Eastern affiliation on the Balkans. This Bulgarian also seems distant to you. Arab branch doesn't seem old but it was obviously present in that area at least in late antiquity. It is also interesting that the Isles branch Y16721 has 2 distant clades.

Hello there,

Sorry for my delayed response, I've been quite busy lately.

I have done some research myself and I am already on track about where my ancestors came from and also I can tell you much more about the Meglen Vlachs as I come from the same area!

First of all, the Meglen Vlachs don't call themselves Megleno-Romanians but just Vlachs.
The term 'Megleno-Romanians' is first applied by the German linguist Gustav Weigand who was specialist in Romanian and Aromanian.
He observed that the language that the Meglen Vlachs are speaking is closer to Daco-Romanian than Aromanian is, hence he started calling these people Megleno-Romanians.

Second, in his book called 'Vlacho-Meglen' he visited several villages in the area, however he didn't visit the village of Konsko or Koinsko(Coinsko) as my people are calling it.
He just reported that the village is a Vlach village!

Now, this was a surprise for me when I first start reading his book several years ago and which made me to test myself and search about my ancestry.
That's because no one from my family or from the old people of the village whom I knew, had ever said that we are Vlachs or that the people of the village have Vlach ancestry.
In fact, the people of the village were speaking Macedonian only while the neighboring village of Huma was a clearly a Vlach village and some people from the same village still speak Vlach, although only old people, the young ones are not speakers of Vlach anymore and are assimilated in the Macedonian corpus and sadly this language will die out soon.

However, when I read that Vasil Kanchov also reported that Koinsko is a Vlach village in an advanced stadium of slavicization, I had no doubt that the village itself was a clear Vlach village at some point, knowing that Kanchov himself was a Bulgarian and as you say, he had a 'Bulgarian POV when it comes to Slavic population in Macedonia'!

So after this, I've tested myself and now, looking at my own results, I have no doubt that I have a Vlach ancestry on my paternal side!

However, than I start wondering who were these people and were they of the same group of Vlachs as the Meglen Vlachs?
Also, I was in a doubt about the village of Koinsko being a Meglen Vlach village because my closest match was a man with origin from Northern Epirus in Albania, an orthodox man whose family are declaring themselves as Greeks!

However knowing the history of this area, I am confident that the real origin of this man is Vlach because there were hardly any real Greeks north and north-west of Grevena and Kozani, but most were Vlachs who for some reasons tend to be Hellenized and as Weigand himself said in his book 'Ethnography of Macedonia' if it was not for the Aromanians, there would of been hardly any Greeks in Macedonia and the Greek struggle for Macedonia would have been lost.

Many calculators I've tried show that TMRCA of me and that man, has lived between 1170AD and 1730AD!

The thing is, the Aromanians and the Meglen Vlachs are quite different and they probably have a very different origin as Gustav Weigand himself said, so I had to look about other clues, who were the people from the village of Koinsko!

Than, I find out about a book called 'Migratory paths of Bulgarians from Macedonia and Albania to the East Bulgarian lands from 15th to 19th century' from D.Yaranov, http://www.bulgari-istoria-2010.com/booksBG/D_Jaranav_Arnautsko_dvizjenie.pdf.

In the book, the author describes about people migrating to the Bulgarian lands which he calls them Bulgarians, however he says, some of them could have been real Albanians or Vlachs-Aromanians.
The author also says that these migrants tended to form their own villages ones they have settled and to name them by the old ones from the lands of origin.
Also, my grandpa used to tell me that the village of Koinsko is not an old village but rather new one with his inhabitants coming to the area from some other place but he didn't know exactly when this have happened!

Therefore, knowing about my close match and the other informations I knew, I've started looking on the map and I found out that there is a village on the Prespa lake, very close to North Epirus, with the exactly same name, Konsko!

I thought this is it, my ancestors were probably living there before the migration although I couldn't find any clues that the village itself was ever inhabited by Vlachs!

That was until I finally learned about the village of Galatini, Γαλατινή, in Western Macedonia in Greece.
If you can read Bulgarian, you can find out something more about this village on the Bulgarian Wikipedia, https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B8.

This village was called Konsko or Kontsiko, Kontsiokon before being renamed to Galatini in 1928!
The village is located in the Voio muncipality, which was known for it's large Vlach community.
Although in every statistics, including those of Kanchov, the inhabitants of the village are Greeks, I am quite sure that these people and their village was once a Vlach village which has been hellenized at some point.

Also there is a map by D.Yavorov in his book, for which I talked previously, showing the migratory paths.
Although D.Yavorov only shows the end point in Bulgaria for these migrants, he also says that these migrants have formed many villages in Macedonia as well, on the very path of the migrations.

https://s33.postimg.cc/lgmfiivv3/karta_na_preselnicheskoto_dvizhenie_ot_Albania_kum _Bulgaria-18-1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/image/izaob9byj/)image upload site (https://postimages.org/)

This is the map, and as you can see, pointed by me with red, are the two villages of Kontsikon or Konsko, now in Greece and Konsko in Rep. of Macedonia!

It's very clear to me that Konsko in Rep. of Macedonia, was formed by these migrants from Kontsikon, now in Greece and is on the very path of these migrants from Western Macedonia and Thessaly!
Therefore, Konsko in Rep. of Macedonia who is formed by migrants from Konsko in Voio mountains, which is close to the village of Hocihst in Albania, where my match has origins from, is either a Vlach village who doesn't have anything to do with the Meglen Vlachs or the Meglen Vlachs are infact Vlachs from Voio mountains and surroundings who have settled in Paiak/Paiko mountain since long time ago and were assimilated to a great extent into the neighboring Slavic population that have changed to a great extent their customs, traditions and language!

Than again, Konsko in Rep. of Macedonia could have been formed by Vlachs with origins from Konica, Epirus in Greece, a town which also was a home to a large Vlach population!


This migrations are very similar to those of the Arvanites in Greece, and the Bulgarians, the same as the Greeks, called these people as Arnauts, which means Albanians!
In the book, D.Yavorov says that these migrants were called Arnauts because they were coming from the lands of the Arnauts, although obviously not all of them were coming from the Albanian lands and not all of them were Albanians!
Instead, he says that most of these people were Bulgarians!

Nevertheless, whatever is the origin for most of these people, they didn't have a hard time to assimilate into the new environment.
And that is because the Vlachs and other people during the medieval and Ottoman times, were polyglots!
They most probably knew both Greek and Bulgarian, since these were the languages of the two most influential empires in the Balkans right next door!

My theory is that, most of these people were not Bulgarians as D.Yavorov have stated, but were Vlachs-Aromanians and some Orthodoxs Albanians maybe.

Aspar
12-07-18, 23:24
And now what I think of E-Y16729!

There are already two clusters which are 4200 years apart in the Balkans, that's me and the Bulgarian with origins from Strandzha!

In the British isles, most of the people who carry this haplogroup are Scots and Irishmen as of now!
Also there is an Englishman who shares three SNP's with the rest of the British men!
Within the Scottish and Irish branch, there are few cluster with TMRCA around 800 ybp!
Therefore, we observe two clusters of the British Y16729 as of now, the Englishman on one side and the rest on the other side with TMRCA around 4200 ybp!
That being said, I think that this haplogroup is quite old in the British isles and might have to do something with Romans or Balkan troops that served in the British isles during Roman times!
I don't know the real ethnicity of this Englishman, but if he is of Scottish or Irish origins, or if some Scots and Irishmen show up within this branch sharing TMRCA around 4200 ybp, than I would say that this British branch is of Celtic origin.
It's enigma as of now, because the Irish and Scottish cluster with TMRCA of 800 ybp is not a very good indicator of Celtic origin!

The Arab branch is an interesting one!
TMRCA is 1700 ybp!
Around 1700 ybp in the Middle East, the Roman Empire was involved in war with the Sassanids!
We know that the Legio V Macedonica was involved in the war!
This unit was sent to Mesopotamia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia), where it successfully fought against the Sassanid Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassanid_Empire) in 296, and then to Memphis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memphis,_Egypt), where it remained until becoming part of the Byzantine army.

Also it is worth mentioning that Y16729 seems to have the same dispersal as S7461.
Both haplogroups are found in the Balkans, the British Isles and the Persian Gulf.

As of now, we still need more samples of this haplogroup, to make more clues!

Aspurg
01-08-18, 21:33
Hello there,

Sorry for my delayed response, I've been quite busy lately.

Hey sorry, I haven't been around much either.

Abour your clade, I haven't encountered such haplotypes in Albanians (scientific studies), generally the only similar ones were the Aromanians from Macedonia, but you know there is a clade of S7461 (brothers Wright subclade) with some similar STR values to yours, I think there is one Bulgarian who probably belongs to that subclade.


About Konsko, that is an interesting parallel with Kontsikon from Greece (modern Galatini). I was looking for this village Konsko in an Ottoman defter of 1570 of the Sanjak of Kustendil. And in the area of Doyran lake there was a certain village named "Kointsi". The author did not identify it with Konsko, and he said it cannot be identified today. But now because of similarity with "Kontsikon" I am thinking that this Kointsi from 1570 might be indeed modern Konsko and that it might be tied with Kontsikon. This would mean this village existed in 16th century, on the other hand if Konsko wasn't around in 16th century then it is newer and it might have been brought by migrants. In Kointsi most of the names were Slavic, I'm not sure these people were Aromanian/Vlach, on the other hand looking at names from Moskopol of that era, it is not easy at all to "spot" a Vlach population based on personal names like it is the case with Romanians. I found some names like Urban which might have been more specific of Vlachs, but there is still lots of work to be made there. Maybe the ratio of Christian/Slavic names might be of help.

So in 1570 in nahiya of Doryan lake there was a village named "Kointsi/Koinci".

Aspar
06-08-18, 23:34
Hey sorry, I haven't been around much either.

Abour your clade, I haven't encountered such haplotypes in Albanians (scientific studies), generally the only similar ones were the Aromanians from Macedonia, but you know there is a clade of S7461 (brothers Wright subclade) with some similar STR values to yours, I think there is one Bulgarian who probably belongs to that subclade.


About Konsko, that is an interesting parallel with Kontsikon from Greece (modern Galatini). I was looking for this village Konsko in an Ottoman defter of 1570 of the Sanjak of Kustendil. And in the area of Doyran lake there was a certain village named "Kointsi". The author did not identify it with Konsko, and he said it cannot be identified today. But now because of similarity with "Kontsikon" I am thinking that this Kointsi from 1570 might be indeed modern Konsko and that it might be tied with Kontsikon. This would mean this village existed in 16th century, on the other hand if Konsko wasn't around in 16th century then it is newer and it might have been brought by migrants. In Kointsi most of the names were Slavic, I'm not sure these people were Aromanian/Vlach, on the other hand looking at names from Moskopol of that era, it is not easy at all to "spot" a Vlach population based on personal names like it is the case with Romanians. I found some names like Urban which might have been more specific of Vlachs, but there is still lots of work to be made there. Maybe the ratio of Christian/Slavic names might be of help.

So in 1570 in nahiya of Doryan lake there was a village named "Kointsi/Koinci".


Hi there again...

Thank you for your interest.

I found your informations valuable and helpful to me in tracing my ancestry!

Yes, my haplotype shows similarity with the Aromanians but not only in Macedonia but with the Aromanians in Dukasi, Albania as well!

The Macedonian Aromanians in the Bosh's study that show similarity with me are three Aromanians from Stip in Macedonia.

The Aromanians in Stip are Gramostians in origin, they settled in Stip in the 19th century!

Also, my closest match is a man from USA who identify himself as Greek from Northern Epirus in Albania!

That's why I've looked at some studies done on the Greek population and found one study called "Y-chromosomal STR haplotypes in a population sample from continental Greece, and the islands of Crete and Chios"!

In that study(although not many markers analysed), I've found some samples that are analysed for the markers DYS19 DYS389-I DYS389-II DYS390 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS385, who show closeness with one and two marker difference!

There are two samples(1 from Macedonia and 1 from Peloponnese) with haplotype: 13 12 29 24 10 11 13 16,18

And there are five samples(2 from Epirus and 3 from Peloponnese) with haplotype: 13 13 30 24 10 11 13 16,19

Also there is one sample in the Greek dna project(who i guess is with origins from Macedonia because he is a member of the Macedonian dna project also) with the haplotype: 13 13 29 24 10 11 13 16,18

The last one is tested on 37 markers and I've tried to run his haplotype on the Nevgen calculator and the result was around 50% chance to be S7461!

This is rather telling, because when I first got my 111-y-STR results, I've run my haplotype at Nevgen calculator and has predicted me as S7461(around 50%)!

However, later I've got my SNP results(Big Y) and turn different subclade!

This is because Y16729 and S7461 have similar haplotypes I think!

So, some of these Greeks from Epirus, Macedonia and Peloponnese might turn out to be Y16729!

All of this(coupled with my investigation about the migrations of my ancestors) rather tells me that my haplotype has south-western affiliation in the Balkans, which is interesting and strange at the same time because as you said, this haplotype and this subclade of mine, haven't showed up in the Albanians as of yet!

Now about Konsko!

I don't know if you've been looking in the right place first of all, because the region where the village of Konsko is, was known as Karadjova during the Ottoman times and was in the sanjak of Selanik/Thessaloniki!

The Karagiova region was divided between the kaza's of Gevgeli, Voden/Edessa and Yenidze Vardar/Yannitsa!

Therefore, looking in the defter of the kaza of Doiran and finding the names of some neighboring villages of Konsko like Uma/Huma and Sirminina/Sermenin might give some clues, if not, than you are looking at the wrong defter!

I don't know how do you find those Ottoman defters about the population because I can't find anything!

The only thing I have found so far is a memoir from Zograph(3-ти Зографски поменик блг.) 1527 - 1728, containing the names of the villages and towns who have donated money for the monastery of Zograph!

In the memoir, you can find the names of the villages of Uma(Huma) and Sirminina(Sermenin) among the names of the villages who donated money but no mentioning of Konsko!

This might indicate that Konsko didn't exist back than in the Karadjova plain and was only formed later!

There were many migrations of Vlachs in the 18th century to modern day Macedonia caused by the arbitrariness of Ali Pasa Tepelena!

ELIOV13
06-02-19, 00:05
hello, I received the test yesterday and unexpectedly belong to haplogroup Y16729. Dress in northern Italy and my ancestors come from the Emilia Apennines near the Liguria region. They are well attested already in the XIII century and probably have a long history in that region. It is an intriguing haplogroup because it indicates to us not a history of migration of peoples, but a history of military migrations. So it seems .... Byzantines?

Aspar
06-02-19, 04:06
hello, I received the test yesterday and unexpectedly belong to haplogroup Y16729. Dress in northern Italy and my ancestors come from the Emilia Apennines near the Liguria region. They are well attested already in the XIII century and probably have a long history in that region. It is an intriguing haplogroup because it indicates to us not a history of migration of peoples, but a history of military migrations. So it seems .... Byzantines?

Hello there...
I've noticed you since yesterday while browsing through the new "Block tree" feature and I was very happy to see a new member of Y16729!
I have found your STR values in the e-v13 project and I can tell you that me and you probably don't share any SNP below Y16729 as it seems we are very distant!
You seem to share DYS393 = 12 with one of the two British branches under Y16729 however you are still on 20+ genetic distance compared to the members of that branch on 67 str markers!
Closest to you appears the Bulgarian on YFULL: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y16729/, who is gd of 20 on 67 str markers with you, but it seems to me that you will be another Y16729*!
May I ask you, did you test with Big Y-500 or with a SNP panel?
If you have Big Y-500, than you might want to upload your BAM file to YFULL for only 49$ and they will analyse your raw data.
Otherwise, contact the e-m35 project administrators and they might tell you if you form a branch with someone or not.
Imo, the subclades under E-V13 did migrate with people ever since the LBA and that the military expansion of the Roman empire is not the only source!
For example, the two British branches under Y16729 share two SNP's among each other with the defining SNP being Y16721, TMRCA of 3800 ybp while TMRCA of Y16729 id 4000 ybp according to YFULL!
That indicates to me that Y16729 is in the British isles since LBA/MBA, long time before any Romans!
I think there are two possible ways how it ended up in the British isles, one is Unetice culture group migrating to the British isles. We know of trade links between the Unetice culture and the Wessex culture in Britain.
The other possible way are the Goidelic Celts. These were the first Celtic groups that arrived in Britain probably around MBA/LBA!
The Celts might be again the source population for Y16729 in Italy.
There are many Sardinian samples on YFULL from a past study I think and there were many subclades under E-V13 found in Sardinia but interestingly no Y16729 was observed!
No Y16729 in South Italy as well as of yet and that now we have one in North Italy might be telling that some proto-Celtic groups are indeed the source!
Anyway, welcome in the club...

ELIOV13
06-02-19, 22:29
Hello, thanks for the help to the understanding of the result. I have done the analysis with a "panel SNP" then I will follow the way you indicated. I come from a notoriously Ligurian area, where the concentration of V13 is noticeable and where conquered SNP could be anything, Liguri, (among the most ancient people in Europe), I might even descend from Greeks Focei, Celts, Etruscans, and ... why not, since the ancient limes ran right there, Bizantini.I Goti does not seem to have done so much in Liguria. Each region of Italy is a melting pot of peoples and untangling the skein with the few data we have is very difficult. Let's say in other detailed results to add something more. The theme is exciting.

Aspar
30-08-20, 11:46
Well Z5018 although all share only one SNP per SNP age is actually MBA (Z5018 are unable to produce that many SNP's below Z5018 level to reach 4000 ybp) , and its spread is very large.

Z5017 is interesting. There are some Z5017 clades not at YFull that are very interesting:
E-Z5017>FT350463 Polish and Irish share only 2 SNP's so their TMRCA is over 4000 ybp.

E-Z5017>BY4642 only 2 SNP's, TMRCA over 4000 ybp
E-Z5017>BY4642>BY40492 Scotland, Ireland
E-Z5017>BY4642>Z38334, TMRCA should be around 3000 ybp, Norway, Russia, Sweden, Denmark. All these Scandinavians and Russian seem 3000 years apart..

Its clear these have nothing to do with the Roman legionaries.

I see Aspar has a new distant cousin. Russian E-Y16729 , Y16733- (SNP Pack). He is 10/37 with Aspar, 11/37 with Bulgarian. Might be distantly related to Germans dys393=12, but he is lso 11/37 with them.
Actually I can see he is most likely distantly related to an Italian (N.Italy). 9/37 but shares 3 slow STR's, 393=12, 607=13, 442=12.. probably LBA range at least..

I just saw your comment so I will answer you here.
Yes, I saw that Russian Y16729. He comes from the far east, from Tomsk region of Russia. I don't know the history of that region nor how long this person can trace his ancestors to Tomsk region however it's getting interesting with all these E-V13 subclades that appear in the far east such as Siberia, China etc.
As you noted he is probably not that close to me or the other person from the Balkans, the Bulgarian. He somehow looks closer to our Italian friend who participates in this thread, probably LBA as you say. The only Y16729* so far probably will remain only the Balkan samples which gives hint as to where the source of this subclade is, probably the Central Balkans and the Carpathian Basin as is probably for all BY3880.
If ELIOV13 and this Russian are indeed LBA match to each other as you say, then this might give hint as to what period these lineages moved to North Italy and Russia. Infact it might turn out that during the late Terramare and early proto-Villanovan culture indeed there was a lot of Balkan influence that included migration of people from the Central Balkans.
From The Elusive Etruscans: The Quest for the Origins of the Etruscan Civilization (https://www.mcgill.ca/classics/files/classics/2006-7-04.pdf):

The Terramara peoples of the Balkans and northern Italy spread down the peninsula, bringing with them their tradition of cremation. The main advocate of this theory was Hugh Hencken. Hencken argued for the similarities between central European urn fields and the urn fields in Etruria: “It seems to me that true Villanovan contains some rather fundamental elements traceable to the central Balkans.”12 He sees the break in funerary practice between inhumation and cremation as evidence of an intervening culture in Etruria.

Moreover, we do have a proto-Villanovan sample(RMPR1) and it's qpAdm model suggests Balkan origin (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/11/open-analysis-and-discussion-thread.html) for this sample:

The Proto-Villanovan singleton is also a key part of the models. Dating to the Bronze Age/Iron Age transition, she appears to be of western Balkan origin. Moreover, her steppe ancestry is probably derived directly from the Yamnaya horizon.

ITA_Proto-Villanovan
HRV_Vucedol 0.677±0.031
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara 0.323±0.031
chisq 10.397
tail prob 0.661174
Full output (https://drive.google.com/open?id=124m-TkIyLdxk6CD-yjJYYU1dbDQBHzwn)
If we add up on top of this that there is an J-CTS6190 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190) Etruscan:
Phylogeographer (https://phylogeographer.com/eleven-j-l283-lineages-of-poland)


This lineage has been found in an ancient context in Etruscan Italy dating to 600-700 BC. Since there appear to be no remnants of J-CTS6190 in the Balkans but high diversity in Italy it's plausible that the migration to Italy occurred sometime during the bottleneck from 1700-1100 BC.
https://phylogeographer.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/J-CTS6190-haplotree2.png (https://phylogeographer.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/J-CTS6190-haplotree2.png)J-CTS6190 from the FTDNA Haplotree, April 1 2020. Augmented by YFull TMRCA date estimates. Ancient Etruscan found to share private SNP with Virginian sample by Flor Veseli.

It get's crystal clear that there was a Balkan migration for sure to Northern Italy and lineages of E-V13 and J-L283 traveled together from the Balkans, while other lineages of the same haplogroups took an eastern direction.
Plus it's interesting this hotspot of Y16729 in North Italy as there is another sample from academic paper that recently was uploaded to YFULL and formed a branch with Gulf Arabs. There is no doubts that the Gulf Arabs are descendants of a Roman that in turn was a descendant of an Etruscan.
This also shows that E-V13 in Italy have multiple sources and ancient Greeks are probably not the main source of E-V13 as some have claimed in the previous years. In fact I will argue that the main sources of E-V13 in Italy are the Etruscans and other people of LBA who migrated to Northern Italy and the Illyrians for Southern Italy. The ancient Greeks have nothing to do with E-V13 except some assimilated lineages such as E-Z17264 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z17264) who are probably assimilated Thracians or Brygians.

In addition, I expect the Brazilian E-Y16729 of Portuguese origin also to be related to this westward expansion of Balkan people towards the Central and Western Mediterranean.

That leaves me and the Bulgarian. as the only E-Y16729*. Although I know who my relatives are in the last thousand years and the path of my lineage to Central Macedonia, still there is a big hole to be filled up namely between 4100 BCE to 1000 CE. I wonder where my distant relative before 1000 CE will pop up. I am on the opinion that before the Romanisation, my pre-Roman ancestor was probably part of some Paeonian-Thracian tribe.

Progon
01-09-20, 15:01
The only way to know for sure is if Etruscans show atleast 20% of E-V13. That means E-V13 was speaking EEF language until late. Etruscans came from Central Europe, there is a chance since their culture was derived from Urnfield.

Aspurg
08-09-20, 22:50
The only way to know for sure is if Etruscans show atleast 20% of E-V13. That means E-V13 was speaking EEF language until late. Etruscans came from Central Europe, there is a chance since their culture was derived from Urnfield.

Well some clades might have been but it is not likely Etruscans had plenty of E-V13. One reason being, there is no Italian E-V13 clade with multiple clades in EIA/LBA Italy where one could say such clade was Etruscan like in age and spread. Italian E-V13's usually seem isolated, for some Etruscan E-V13 clade one needs multiple Italians having EIA connections.. J-CTS6190 on the other had was found in Etruscans and all of its branches seem rather Etruscan/non-Balkan. So J-CTS6190 in LBA was a man speaking proto-Etruscan language. I think there should be more on Etruscans in coming papers, I heard of even Etruscan I1..

Also it seems EEF G2a clades were a bit more common in LBA/EIA aDNA around Balkans/Pannonian than there are today.

Aspurg
08-09-20, 23:43
I just saw your comment so I will answer you here.
Yes, I saw that Russian Y16729. He comes from the far east, from Tomsk region of Russia. I don't know the history of that region nor how long this person can trace his ancestors to Tomsk region however it's getting interesting with all these E-V13 subclades that appear in the far east such as Siberia, China etc.
As you noted he is probably not that close to me or the other person from the Balkans, the Bulgarian. He somehow looks closer to our Italian friend who participates in this thread, probably LBA as you say. The only Y16729* so far probably will remain only the Balkan samples which gives hint as to where the source of this subclade is, probably the Central Balkans and the Carpathian Basin as is probably for all BY3880.
If ELIOV13 and this Russian are indeed LBA match to each other as you say, then this might give hint as to what period these lineages moved to North Italy and Russia. Infact it might turn out that during the late Terramare and early proto-Villanovan culture indeed there was a lot of Balkan influence that included migration of people from the Central Balkans.
From The Elusive Etruscans: The Quest for the Origins of the Etruscan Civilization:




Moreover, we do have a proto-Villanovan sample(RMPR1) and it's qpAdm model suggests Balkan origin for this sample:
If we add up on top of this that there is an J-CTS6190 Etruscan:
Phylogeographer




It get's crystal clear that there was a Balkan migration for sure to Northern Italy and lineages of E-V13 and J-L283 traveled together from the Balkans, while other lineages of the same haplogroups took an eastern direction.
Plus it's interesting this hotspot of Y16729 in North Italy as there is another sample from academic paper that recently was uploaded to YFULL and formed a branch with Gulf Arabs. There is no doubts that the Gulf Arabs are descendants of a Roman that in turn was a descendant of an Etruscan.
This also shows that E-V13 in Italy have multiple sources and ancient Greeks are probably not the main source of E-V13 as some have claimed in the previous years. In fact I will argue that the main sources of E-V13 in Italy are the Etruscans and other people of LBA who migrated to Northern Italy and the Illyrians for Southern Italy. The ancient Greeks have nothing to do with E-V13 except some assimilated lineages such as E-Z17264 who are probably assimilated Thracians or Brygians.


In addition, I expect the Brazilian E-Y16729 of Portuguese origin also to be related to this westward expansion of Balkan people towards the Central and Western Mediterranean.


That leaves me and the Bulgarian. as the only E-Y16729*. Although I know who my relatives are in the last thousand years and the path of my lineage to Central Macedonia, still there is a big hole to be filled up namely between 4100 BCE to 1000 CE. I wonder where my distant relative before 1000 CE will pop up. I am on the opinion that before the Romanisation, my pre-Roman ancestor was probably part of some Paeonian-Thracian tribe.

There are various proto-Villanovan connections with the Balkans. Some of those connections are geographically close to that J-Z615* find from Maros culture (Mokrin necropolis)..


The urns that are most like Villanovan are the Dubovac-Zuto Brdo and Girla Mare urns found in the region where Hungary, Rumania and Jugoslavia come together


I was mentioning this culture before as some Russians claimed "proto-Dorians" were there, and I thought there might be a relation of MBA E-Z5018 clade with that broader area, and I still do, but there are some opinions that Girla Mare although a neighbor of Verbicioara, Vatin and related cultures, was ancestrally quite different from them..

So archeologically and genetically there were Balkan connections for the proto-Etruscans. J-CTS6190 seems very Etruscan as it is not Balkan in modern spread at all, in addition to aDNA find. Indeed there is this new academic sample from Florence, in addition to ELLIOV13 who seems to have only done the SNP pack.. I think Ellio is maybe some basal E-Z38518 due to his 393=12, if so MBA relation to them, Russian shows stronger links in any case. If Ellio is not related to Florence sample despite close geographic proximity (he is from Parma area I think) then actually E-Y16729 clades could be related to an Etruscan expansion. Also the academic Tuscan samples who are E-Z5018* and E-Y145455a* respectively might be Etruscan related as well.

Well when I did some overview of Greek clades some time ago already plenty of Greeks had Medieval connections to Albanians, Bulgarians etc. On the other hand of interest is one E-BY5430 Peloponesus Greek who is BY5431-, so his distance to Bulgarian and Macedonian is likely around 2700 ybp. If he is genuinely Greek then it is some later EIA migration. E-Z17264 is generally Greek but rather Macedonian oriented and even strong in Asia Minor. Also take a look at E-Y193398 clade, there is a Pontic Greek cluster (Turkish flag) but related to them is an Armenian, who will form a new subclade with the mas they share 15 SNP's.. Their distance is likely Early-Medieval range. Most (or vast majority) Pontic Greeks are Anatolians so this clade is likely to be some V13 who migrated with the proto-Armenians than Greek..

I agree, a large portion of Greek E-V13 already does not appear that "Greek".. That includes your own close cousin.

Generally I agree, in the absence of closer relatives that Paeonians might be a good fit for your own cluster.