PDA

View Full Version : Greatest German ever ?



Maciamo
07-08-03, 16:51
BBC NEWS : 'German' Mozart upsets Austrians (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3131333.stm)


Austrians have voiced their upset over a shortlist for a "best Germans" TV show that includes the Salzburg-born composer Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart


A spokeswoman from the Austrian embassy in London told BBC News Online said that Mozart was neither German or Austrian as he came from Salzburg when it was its own city state, but that Austria now claimed him as "Austrian".


Other disputed candidates in the ZDF-made show include the composer Joseph Haydn, who was born in Vienna, and psychoanalyst Sigmund Freud.


ZDF said there was always likely to be some controversy because Germany's borders had changed so often, and producers were having difficulties suggesting some candidates born outside of Germany's present-day borders.

Very well said. They should have called the poll "greatest German-speaker", so as to include those born outside present day Germany (especially Poland and Austria).


Some of the undisputedly-German candidates include the composer Ludwig van Beethoven, scientist Albert Einstein, writer Gunter Grass, tennis player Boris Becker and the supermodel Claudia Schiffer.

My foot 'undisputedly-German' ! Beethoven is from Dutch-Belgian and Austrian descent, though he was born in Bonn, Germany. His family name is Dutch. That's because of this "Europeanness" that his 9th symphony was chosen as the EU's national anthem (among other reasons).

Einstein was a Jew born in Switzerland who later moved to the US and was naturalised American. How German is that ? At least his mother-tongue was German.

thomas
07-08-03, 17:25
Just read about that survey. Believe me, here in Austria people are already sharpening their knives!
:D


Haydn, Freud: definitely Austrians. Beethoven: welp, at least he composed most of his pieces in Austria. There are a few personalities being "claimed" by two or more countries. Take for instance Franz Kafka who was born in Prague during the Austro-Hungarian monarchy, but who wrote mostly in German. Both, Czechs and Austrians, call him one of their greatest sons, lol. However, the situation looks entirely different as far as Hitler is concerned...

http://www.buecherlesen.com/bilder_grafiken/gewinner/preis4.jpg

Maciamo
07-08-03, 17:32
However, the situation looks entirely different as far as Hitler is concerned...

Yes, of course... :D

kuchi
13-04-04, 05:42
sadly, the country i live in would not consider liliuokalani as a candidate for a great american in the U.S. even though her country (islands) was annexed shortly after, the same would go for geronimo and pocahontas. well, at least by conservatives that is. the show should retract their statement and say "greatest men and women of gaelic decent".

mudball
21-04-04, 01:20
i dont think that most dutch people would consider beethoven dutch or belgian. At least i wouldnt....maybe his name is dutch or belgian like but that doesnt make him a dutch or belgian person........as for the rest is concerned i dunno quite the history between the boundries of a country and those people asscoiated in that time.

actually i should know this cause i had this a long time at high school but things like that i forget easily.

TwistedMac
21-04-04, 11:37
i don't like german people very much.. they keep expecting me to know german, just cuz i'm a swede.. they can't just speak english like normal people.. they're like the french, except the german language is fouler! "RAUS NICHT HAST DU SHTRUDEL GEBACHT UND LEDERHOSEN HEIL!!" ugly language..

and they dub over arnold... ARNOLD!!! how do you get away with sacrilege like that?

dreamer
21-04-04, 12:24
they're like the french, except the german language is fouler!

EXCUSE ME but What do you mean by "they're like the french" ?????
:auch:

bossel
21-04-04, 20:57
i don't like german people very much.. they keep expecting me to know german, just cuz i'm a swede.. they can't just speak english like normal people.. they're like the french, except the german language is fouler! "RAUS NICHT HAST DU SHTRUDEL GEBACHT UND LEDERHOSEN HEIL!!" ugly language..

and they dub over arnold... ARNOLD!!! how do you get away with sacrilege like that?
Dub over Arnold? You mean Schwarzenegger? Well, he dubs himself, shouldn't make much of a difference then.

I don't know how many Germans you met, but can't be too many, at least not younger ones. English is compulsory subject in pretty much all secondary schools, so it should be possible to have at least basic conversation with most Germans up to the age of 40 or even 50.
Well, maybe not, if somebody shows such an attitude as you do, they might not be willing to make the effort of talking English to you.

If you live in Germany you should learn German, anyway. If these Germans live in Sweden they should learn Swedish (not English). If you talk about tourists, well, that's a whole topic of its own.

Ugly language? Hmm, Swedish & German are closely related, lots of similar sounds, even expressions. Can't be that bad then, except, of course, you think of your own language as ugly as well.

BTW, what did you want to say with your "German" sentence? Makes no sense. :clueless:

dreamer
21-04-04, 22:09
BTW, what did you want to say with your "German" sentence? Makes no sense. :clueless:
I was wondering the same thing ^^
Beside if you don't make an effort I think it's normal people don't make one too...
Anyway here in France English is an obligation in 95% of the schools so almost any teen from 12 to 25 should be able to speak it more or less correctly (Unless it's you who can't express yourself clearly enough)

TwistedMac
22-04-04, 11:00
right, ok, off to 'splainin then ^_^

first of all, everything i say should be taken with a grain of salt.. hell, take the whole saltstone.. I've been known to blow things out of proportion..

*breathes in*

second, here's the explanation:
when i was in france there were 2 nice guys and the rest looked at me like i was retarded because i didn't know any french... busdrivers treated me like shit and so on.. didn't give me a great impression of the french..

sweden is a germanic language, and i can understand alot from drawing logical conclusions, but saying they're almost the same is like saying french and latin are the same.. let's face it, they're not. In my ears german is what the orcs should be talking >_<.. (swedish is an ok language and we pronounce many things alot like the japanese.. english is fantastic, you can express just about anything, it's just so versatile. japanese is very nice and french sounds great... but german.. german sounds like a bowel-movement...)

German people "know" english, but they insist on not using it as soon as they get a chance.. so if a swede doesn't know german, they get a bit like the french i mentioned earlier.. I've been to germany MANY times (you most probably know of the swedes shopping-runs to Germany, bossel...), but only on vacations...

me, i'm part english, my english is good enough =D

third: that sentence means nothing.. it's just jibberish. just random german words..

fourth: you don't dub over arnold! arnold is god!
the point i was trying to make there was that they dub over ALL their movies.. basically everything is in german in germany.. and let's face it.. Hollywood has taught more people english (or atleast american-english) than any english teacher ever will... that's not true in Germany tho, so usually their english is pretty much terrible =/ (there are of course exceptions, bossel, but be honest, how many of your friends even TRY to speak english without it sounding like a variation of german?).. those exceptions are usually the germans you meet on non-german boards and such...)

/eeend

(I mean no offence to anyone, and anyone is free to swing shots on sweden or swedish or me as a person.. i talk alot but i have very little to say.. so to speak)

dreamer
22-04-04, 11:58
You know, when you go in another country the less you can do is learn some basic vocabulary, especially when you're going to some crappy old villages. You said the busdriver treated you like sh... but have you wondered why?
If you were standing here making him lose his time it's normal that he treated you like this.
Think about it. You say you can deduce the meaning of some german snetences since it looks like swedish but how would you feel if some german people came in your country and used german with you?
People tend to use the language they know the most and that's just the same in every country.
By the way french inheritated a lot from latin this is why it's so similar.
Anyway German and swedish are really alike so to my mind saying that german sounds like a bowel-movement means that swedish too...
Beside if you don't like German you shouldn't go to germany -_-
There's lot of other places where you can go on vacation even if it's for shopping. They have good stuff in cali, london or even hong kong if you have the guts to move a lil bit further ^^
(btw I don't understand the word bossel)

As for arnold I've nothing to say about him since I dun like what he's doing and as it is said: everyone has his own tastes...
However It's easy for you to say that other countries people talk with an accent. However English is just a foreign language in most of the countries and it's normal that teens don't use it to communicate when they can use their native language.

To my mind when you go to another country it's YOU who must make an effort and try to communicate with the other in their native language as much as possible. Otherwise just go to english-speaking countries...

TwistedMac
22-04-04, 12:08
but as you said earlier, they DO learn english in school, so why shouldnt we be able to communicate in this universal language? that's sort of why it's taught outside of england O_o and yes, i know french is derived from latin.. just like swedish is derived from a germanic language, and so is german...

i can see how the two would sound the same to you, so you might think my language sounds silly too... i just don't =P

besides, it's not like the german tourists make any effort to learn a single swedish word when they're here.. i've had german people ask directions in german here in sweden.. kind of annoys me..

bossel is the name of the german dude up there *points* the frog!

dreamer
22-04-04, 12:32
Lol yeah they're learning english but are you using your history or biology knowledges outside school? ^^
Anyway I've never learned swedish, and i'm only a beginner in german so I think it's normal both sound similar to me
As for the german tourists...well I guess I'll give you the point here :p
I'd answer in swedish at your place :D

Btw : gomenasaiii bossel >.<

TwistedMac
22-04-04, 12:40
Lol yeah they're learning english but are you using your history or biology knowledges outside school? ^^

i'll send that back to you with another question ;)

do you stop using your math skills just because you enter another country?

if i needed my history skills in another country, i'd most probably use it there...

ah well, we're not really getting anywhere, so i'll just go ahead and agree with whatever you say next... frenchie :emblaugh:

dreamer
22-04-04, 12:55
Each country has its math program Oo
So the math level is different everywhere :D

Lol actually i'm just a resident in France ^^
I'm not french myself

bossel
23-04-04, 03:14
first of all, everything i say should be taken with a grain of salt.. hell, take the whole saltstone.. I've been known to blow things out of proportion..
I think, the grain will do for now.



sweden is a germanic language, and i can understand alot from drawing logical conclusions, but saying they're almost the same is like saying french and latin are the same.. let's face it, they're not. In my ears german is what the orcs should be talking >_<.. (swedish is an ok language and we pronounce many things alot like the japanese.. english is fantastic, you can express just about anything, it's just so versatile. japanese is very nice and french sounds great... but german.. german sounds like a bowel-movement...)
German & Swedish are closely related. I wouldn't (& didn't) say they're almost the same, though, English & esp. Dutch are much closer to German. These are West-Germanic while Swedish is North-Germanic. I'm not too familiar with North Germanic languages, but if I hear them on radio or TV, the sounds & their structure appears very similar to German.

English is a bit smoother (hmm, if that is the right expression) than other Germanic languages, hence songs in English generally sound a bit better. I wouldn't call it more versatile. Every major living language has a similar versatility.



German people "know" english, but they insist on not using it as soon as they get a chance.. so if a swede doesn't know german, they get a bit like the french i mentioned earlier.. I've been to germany MANY times (you most probably know of the swedes shopping-runs to Germany, bossel...), but only on vacations...
A heavy drinker then?:beer: I know that a lot of Scandinavians come to Germany to buy booze. But the question of course is, where did you go? The former GDR is a place where English is not as widespread as in the West. Not to mention that a lot of East Germans seem to have some kind of inferiority complex which they need to take out on someone (IE usually foreigners). In the West it should be fairly easy to find people who talk English, esp. in the cities.



fourth: you don't dub over arnold! arnold is god!
the point i was trying to make there was that they dub over ALL their movies.. basically everything is in german in germany.. and let's face it.. Hollywood has taught more people english (or atleast american-english) than any english teacher ever will... that's not true in Germany tho, so usually their english is pretty much terrible =/ (there are of course exceptions, bossel, but be honest, how many of your friends even TRY to speak english without it sounding like a variation of german?).. those exceptions are usually the germans you meet on non-german boards and such...)
The dubbing of movies/shows/etc. is a 2-edged sword, but I think, the positive sides prevail. I had the advantage of living near the Dutch border, where I could get Dutch TV. They broadcast mostly the original with subtitles (which helped me a bit in learning Dutch). Therefore I was able to compare the dubbed & original versions. There are idioms, expressions & specialties most Germans just wouldn't get with their school English. Having to read the subtitles distracts too much, IMO. Hence for the big public it's quite alright to have dubbed versions.

The spoken English doesn't change so much through listening but through practicing. The German accent in most young people is not so heavy, anyway. Those above 30, esp. without any practice, can have a horrible pronunciation. (Not as horrible as that of some Japanese I had on the phone, though. Once I wasn't even able to understand one single word & that was someone in the export department of a huge Japanese company.)

I've seen some English TV shows where Germans are depicted with a heavy accent, but I never came across anybody with anything like that. Well, once I saw an Austrian (scientist, I think) on TV, who came close. But else...

About German tourists...
As I said, a whole topic of its own. (& this post is long enough, anyway)

bossel
23-04-04, 03:21
(btw I don't understand the word bossel)
Neither do I! :D
Well, there is a sport that's called boßeln (bosseln, when the ß is not available), but pronounced differently. I just made up this name when I was a teenager (before I knew that there was this sport), since I didn't like my legal name. I stuck to it, at least online, eversince.




To my mind when you go to another country it's YOU who must make an effort and try to communicate with the other in their native language as much as possible. Otherwise just go to english-speaking countries...
True! You should be able to at least pronounce & understand some basic stuff with the help of a guidebook.

TwistedMac
23-04-04, 04:05
English is a bit smoother (hmm, if that is the right expression) than other Germanic languages, hence songs in English generally sound a bit better. I wouldn't call it more versatile. Every major living language has a similar versatility.
..no i must disagree...

look in an english dictionary and compare it to any other language.. (i've heard it comes second only to japanese :?) the amount of words you can use to seperate something that in, for example, swedish only has one word is staggering..

it's mostly because of the enormous amount of words borrowed from french and latin, but it doesnt matter, they're english now ^_^

---
PS: a bit on the same topic: i got ripped a new one by a german today in Ragnarok Online.. some guy wanted help with something and asked in german.. so i said "excuse me? i don't quite understand you.. could you ask me in english instead?" and he got REALLY pissed and started cursing me out! luckily you can just walk away from people there =P.. wonder what THAT was all about? can't say i'd attribute that to german-ness though, not even the german are just outright retarded like that =P he probably would've gotten pissed even if he was finnish and the only guy talking finnish on the server...

Maciamo
23-04-04, 04:29
look in an english dictionary and compare it to any other language.. (i've heard it comes second only to japanese :?) the amount of words you can use to seperate something that in, for example, swedish only has one word is staggering..

Just to dispell your apparent attraction to Japanese, English is by far the richest language in term of vocabulary and also one of the most flexible (if not the most, but that's less objective as the number of words) in the world. English has 500.000 words or 2 million if you include technical term. That is much more than the average of European languages, with French having barely 70.000 words and German 120.000. Japanese is difficult to classify, because the language changed twice recently (Meiji and post WWII), so that younger Japanese wouldnt be able to understand Meiji-period (100 year-old) Japanese anymore. S if you consider words that are used in modern Japanese, it has probably a similar vocabulary to French. It is maybe more like German if you use old-fashioned term from Edo and Meiji period.

TwistedMac
23-04-04, 04:40
kewl, thanks for the info maci.. it was just something i had heard =P

fact is, i got scared when i heard that jap was as(or even more so) flexible than english.. i've been learning english since i was 5 and i still only know every 6th word in the dictionary... having to do that again, starting at 22 was a scary thought to say the least...

Now i'm confiden't my japanese classes will amount to something good ^_^ can't wait to get started....

noyhauser
23-04-04, 23:00
Structurally yes Japanese is an easier language to learn, it makes more intuitive sense than english. You would be able to pick up japanese to speak faster than english or a romantic language... IMO. However the amount of characters that the Japanese language it makes it far far more difficult to learn than any other language, with the exception of maybe Chinese.

noyhauser
23-04-04, 23:01
Oh... I'd pick either Martin Luther or Otto Von Bismarck. Without Bismarck there wouldn't be a germany.

bossel
24-04-04, 02:51
Oh... I'd pick either Martin Luther or Otto Von Bismarck. Without Bismarck there wouldn't be a germany.
The winner was Adenauer, 2nd was Luther, 3rd came Marx. Bismarck was 9th, just behind Gutenberg.

I didn't vote, because you really can't say that one person had such an importance. History is made by many people, but usually coincidence plays a major role.



..no i must disagree...

look in an english dictionary and compare it to any other language.. (i've heard it comes second only to japanese :?) the amount of words you can use to seperate something that in, for example, swedish only has one word is staggering..
I see. When you said "english is fantastic, you can express just about anything, it's just so versatile.", I thought more in the direction of adaptability or usability. All living languages have the ability to adapt to new circumstances & form new words or word formations.
The sheer number of words doesn't say very much, though it seems (see below) that English has more words than most other languages. Since there are a lot of redundancies & words not commonly used anymore, it's hard to estimate versatility on these grounds.

bossel
24-04-04, 02:53
English has 500.000 words or 2 million if you include technical term. That is much more than the average of European languages, with French having barely 70.000 words and German 120.000.
It seems generally agreed that English has the most words in the world, though I doubt that the difference is as great as given here.
The problem with all this is, what you can count as a word, how "word" is defined. Defined as "basic morpheme", estimations go to around 5000 (plus loanwords) for German. Do you count active vocabulary only or passive vocabulary, the 1st is maybe a few thousand while the latter is estimated between 12,000 & 100,000. Do you count inflected words? Do you count words or meanings? When are loanwords part of the language, should they be counted at all? Do you count what's in a dictionary, then which dictionary to go for?

Here's a small list of German dictionaries:
Duden, 1. Auflage (1880): 27000
Duden, 22. Auflage (2000): 120000
Wahrig, 7. Auflage (2000): 250000
Grimmsches Wörterbuch (1838–1961): 350000
Mackensen (1977): 170000
Wahrig in sechs Bänden (1980–1984): 220000
Duden in zehn Bänden (1999): 200000

for comparison:
Webster's Collegiate (1993): 160000
Webster's Third (1961): 450000
Oxford English Dictionary (1989): 290500

As you see, all vary widely, not only the German ones. Interesting to note that Wahrig in six books has less words counted than the Wahrig 2000 in one book.

The project to build an electronic database with a "complete" German vocabulary (full forms, with inflected words et al.) based on factual usage is at 5 million words at the moment. By far not finished.

All what was written above is probably similar in all major living languages.

The dictionary list is taken from
http://faql.de/sonstiges.html#wortschatz
It's German, but I think you can understand German, so it should be interesting for you, Maciamo.

A similar text on the futility of counting words, in English:
http://www.sls.lib.il.us/reference/por/features/97/language.html

Pray
24-04-04, 12:39
I don't see what this topic is about.
Offending German and French?
Oh well, have fun.
*tries to speak "understandable" english just for twisted mac*

thomas
24-04-04, 12:59
A similar text on the futility of counting words, in English:
http://www.sls.lib.il.us/reference/por/features/97/language.html

Excellent post, bossel. Very interesting!

fixelbrumpf
24-04-04, 14:36
My favourite German is Chris Hülsbeck, a video game music composer who more or less provided the soundtrack for my youth. Yes, I'm that much of a dork. :p I also like Erich Kästner, my favourite German writer.

TwistedMac
26-04-04, 16:46
I don't see what this topic is about.
Offending German and French?
Oh well, have fun.
*tries to speak "understandable" english just for twisted mac*

i got a bit sidetracked.. i think i was trying to offend the german.. >_<

j/k.. i never try to offend anyone but i do anyway (it just comes natural =P ), it's just the way it goes, don't mind my insane rantings :balloon:

nekosasori
08-06-04, 19:18
To get back to the original post in the thread, my vote has always gone to Johann Sebastian Bach.

Hachiko
12-06-04, 03:45
Mozart upsetting Austrians? They should be happy for them, cause it might as well have been Arnie!! :blush:

howabe
19-06-04, 01:40
1. Attila the Hun
2. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
3. Bastian Schweinsteiger

bossel
19-06-04, 02:17
1. Attila the Hun
A German???
:D

Duo
19-06-04, 05:14
I'd defenetily vote for Bismarck. He made Germany wat it is now, without him, some of Germanic states might have been absorbed by some other European Country.

howabe
19-06-04, 13:49
A German???
:D

Yep. Conquered the area from the Rhine to the Black Sea, which includes part of Germany... Thta makes him German enough for me lol :p

Duo
19-06-04, 16:07
some say he's hungarian, some that he is mongol, i'll just stuk with him being some turkic guy.

bossel
20-06-04, 03:19
Yep. Conquered the area from the Rhine to the Black Sea, which includes part of Germany... Thta makes him German enough for me lol :p
Oh well, if you see it this way...

That would make Napoleon a German, too. Wonder, what the French think of this. :atchoo:

Lina Inverse
20-06-04, 14:21
There's also Varus who conquered part of Germany before he got his ass kicked :D

Ewok85
20-06-04, 18:39
the point i was trying to make there was that they dub over ALL their movies..
They do that in japan to my annoyance :(

I've met many european people and its always amazing how good their language skills are expecially their english!!

Duo
21-06-04, 00:10
In Belgium and in the Netherlands, as far as I know they don't dub over movies. They just put subs. Also on Tv, american tv shows and movies are not dubbed, only subs. In italy and france however, they dub everything. I have found that Italians are much better at dubbing than French.

Lina Inverse
21-06-04, 04:32
In Belgium and in the Netherlands, as far as I know they don't dub over movies. They just put subs. Also on Tv, american tv shows and movies are not dubbed, only subs. In italy and france however, they dub everything. I have found that Italians are much better at dubbing than French.
Yes, Italian dubs are generally quite good dubs, I saw this myself (or rather, heard it :D )

It's not true that we Germans dub everything. With anime, only those that are aired on TV are dubbed (and even there are already some subs), but the Dvd releases are generally sub-only :cool: That's it what truly matters.

Miss_apollo7
29-03-05, 15:50
some say he's hungarian, some that he is mongol, i'll just stuk with him being some turkic guy.

He is a sad person.....died during his honeymoon....not a great man at all...no matter whether he is a Hun, Hungarian, Mongol...

It is sad when he dies during his honeymoon....and weird. He was a great horseback rider, and raider.....but he couldn't handle alcohol and a wedding party at the same time....

Maciamo
29-03-05, 16:03
In Belgium and in the Netherlands, as far as I know they don't dub over movies. They just put subs.

That's not true. In Wallonia are almost always dubbed in French. Brussels is a special case as it is bilingual and quite international, and many movies are subbed in French and Dutch instead.

Maciamo
29-03-05, 16:07
It's not true that we Germans dub everything. With anime, only those that are aired on TV are dubbed (and even there are already some subs), but the Dvd releases are generally sub-only :cool: That's it what truly matters.

I suppose you meant that DVD versions have both subtitles (in various languages), original voices and dubbed version(s), which can all be selected and changed anytime during the movie.

bossel
29-03-05, 21:35
I suppose you meant that DVD versions have both subtitles (in various languages), original voices and dubbed version(s), which can all be selected and changed anytime during the movie.
No. I think, he means the stuff that is not "good enough" to be broadcast, only released on DVD. Since dubbing is expensive, it wouldn't pay to dub stuff that doesn't reach the broad masses.

Duo
29-03-05, 23:56
That's not true. In Wallonia are almost always dubbed in French. Brussels is a special case as it is bilingual and quite international, and many movies are subbed in French and Dutch instead.

Umm ja on tv the french speakin stations dubb the movies and shows, but even rtfb, the belgian state tv in french, sometimes when they have a premiere of a movie they will show it in english with subs and the french version of it on their other affiliate station. Also as far as cable tv goes, here we get stations from germany, italy, spain and what not, so is a lingual mix, the flemish and dutch channels almost never dubb anything, i've seen some asian movies on the Dutch, from netherlands dutch, channels in their original language with subs.

And as far as the cinema is concerned, they never dub anything, always work with subs, they will only dubd kid's movies like this new movie now Robots. I feel that this is a good policy, original is always better than dubbed.

Duo
29-03-05, 23:59
He is a sad person.....died during his honeymoon....not a great man at all...no matter whether he is a Hun, Hungarian, Mongol...

It is sad when he dies during his honeymoon....and weird. He was a great horseback rider, and raider.....but he couldn't handle alcohol and a wedding party at the same time....


Ohhh, i had no idea, thx for all the info. Maybe his wife was like super duperish cute and he couldn't handle that :p

Dutch Baka
30-03-05, 01:49
the biggest dutch man was : PIM FORTUIN, just because he said some things, and got a bullit in his head, he is the bigest dutch one... ( im sorry its really wrong...) Congratulations with your german one....Adenauer

our number 6 of GREATEST DUTCH PEOPLE WAS Anne Frank ( who was a german, from orign.... ) pretty strange if you ask me..

Shas
31-03-05, 00:30
My favorite german is also not german. ARNOLD IS THE BOMB HARHAR de governator! yay!

we'll elect chuck norris just for revenge! :P



no seriously: at some time of history all the austrians or switzerlands or so were germans O.o i dont know

I'd elect Oscar Schindler because he showed that not all Germans were Nazis (what many people still don't get :( ) or maybe Martin Luther because by translating the Bible he made the lower class more independant from the Church


^ ^


i dont know who invented the Sauerkraut though hes a hot candidate too (if he aint form austria or so. we just annex them)

Lina Inverse
02-04-05, 23:15
i dont know who invented the Sauerkraut though hes a hot candidate too (if he aint form austria or so. we just annex them)
Sauerkraut, bleh... now that's something I'm really not fond of :relief:
Even worse is pork's knuckle... even though I really like pork otherwise (actually, pork is the only meat I eat :D ), but pork's knuckle is totally yucky! :okashii:
How the hell could some icky stuff like pork's knuckle with sauerkraut become the German national dish!? :auch:

Maciamo
03-04-05, 05:10
And as far as the cinema is concerned, they never dub anything, always work with subs, they will only dubd kid's movies like this new movie now Robots. I feel that this is a good policy, original is always better than dubbed.

Duo, I have lived there long enough to know that most movies in the French speaking part are dubbed and only subbed for premiere or on a special day once a week (eg. Tuesday night). It's even rarer to find subbed movies on RTBF, RTL-TVI or any French channels (TF1...).

Maciamo
03-04-05, 05:20
the biggest dutch man was : PIM FORTUIN, just because he said some things, and got a bullit in his head, he is the bigest dutch one... ( im sorry its really wrong...)

Biggest ? Was he fat ?


our number 6 of GREATEST DUTCH PEOPLE WAS Anne Frank ( who was a german, from orign.... ) pretty strange if you ask me..

And would would be the top 5 Dutch people ? I guess that we could consider Erasmus, Hieronimus Bosch, Rembrandt, Jan Vermeer, Vincent Van Gogh, Peter Stuyvesant, Abel Tasman, Baruch Spinoza (even if he was a Jew of Portuguese origin), William III of Orange (who became king of England), and Piet Mondriaan.

Miss_apollo7
03-04-05, 05:28
Duo, I have lived there long enough to know that most movies in the French speaking part are dubbed and only subbed for premiere or on a special day once a week (eg. Tuesday night). It's even rarer to find subbed movies on RTBF, RTL-TVI or any French channels (TF1...).

Regarding subbed/dubbed films, I remember when I went to the cinema with my boyfriend, Karsten, in Zurich, too see an American film, and the sub-titles took up almost half the screen, as there were French, German and Italian subtitles simultaneously on top of each language....!!! (I am not kidding!!!).

Maciamo
03-04-05, 06:57
Regarding subbed/dubbed films, I remember when I went to the cinema with my boyfriend, Karsten, in Zurich, too see an American film, and the sub-titles took up almost half the screen, as there were French, German and Italian subtitles simultaneously on top of each language....!!! (I am not kidding!!!).

In Belgium, they only subbed in two languages (Dutch and French) in Brussels. In Flanders it's subbed/dubbed in Dutch only, while in Wallonia it's normally dubbed in French without subtitles. As German, French and Italian dubbing are available, I wonder why the Swiss decide to sub, and why they do not restrict the subtitles to the town official language.

bossel
04-04-05, 01:23
And would would be the top 5 Dutch people ? I guess that we could consider Erasmus, Hieronimus Bosch, Rembrandt, Jan Vermeer, Vincent Van Gogh, Peter Stuyvesant, Abel Tasman, Baruch Spinoza (even if he was a Jew of Portuguese origin), William III of Orange (who became king of England), and Piet Mondriaan.
As dutch baka said: no. 1 is Pim Fortuyn.
2nd is William I of Orange ("father of the fatherland", funnily enough of German origin, too)
3rd is Willem Drees (PM after WWII)

You can look it up on the Dutch poll homepage:
http://www.degrootstenederlander.nl/start.php

Dutch Baka
04-04-05, 02:29
Thanks Bossel...

here is the 11-100
http://www.degrootstenederlander.nl/top11100.php

and maciano... sorry for my english, sometimes i get mixed up with my words...

stalky
24-04-05, 17:50
my favourite famous german was otton III, i liked his idea of united europe, beside that during his rule germany and poland were in good relations
also like carl von clausevitz, but he was prussian - so i don't know if we can say he was german

SirJeannot
06-05-05, 00:04
EXCUSE ME but What do you mean by "they're like the french" ?????
:auch:
"die Franzosen sind ein wildes Volk"
i hate to admit it, but for me it's bismark :okashii:

Zauriel
02-06-06, 14:34
I would say the greatest German ever is Manfred von Richthofen, alias the Red Baron and the ace of the aces. Note: Ace refers to a fighter pilot who made at least 5 recorded kills of other pilots, although a British ace requires 10 confirmed military aircraft shootings to be one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_ace

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred_von_Richthofen

Manfred von Richthofen, the "Red Baron", who brought down 80 Allied aircraft before being shot down and killed on April 21, 1918. The Pour le M&eacute;rite medal is clearly in view here.Manfred Albrecht Freiherr von Richthofen (May 2, 1892 – April 21, 1918) was a German pilot and is still regarded today as the "ace of aces". He was a military leader and flying ace and the most successful fighter pilot of World War I, who won 80 air combats.

Richthofen is also known as "der rote Kampfflieger" ("Red Battle-Flyer") in German; "petit rouge" ("Little Red") or "le Diable Rouge" ("Red Devil") in French, and; the "Red Knight" or the "Red Baron" in the English-speaking world. The German translation of Red Baron is "der Rote Baron", and Richthofen is known by this name in Germany as well (although he was rarely referred to as "Baron" in Germany during his lifetime).

Early life
Born in Breslau, Silesia, Germany (now Wrocław, Poland), Richthofen moved with his family to Schweidnitz (now Świdnica, Poland), when he was 9 years old. The young Richthofen enjoyed hunting and riding horses. After completing cadet training in 1911, he joined a cavalry unit, Uhlan Regiment No. 1 – Kaiser Alexander III.

After the First World War began, Richthofen served as a cavalry scout on both the eastern and western fronts. Richthofen became bored with this role and in about May 1915, he asked to be transferred to the air service. He became an aircraft observer.

[edit]
Piloting career
Inspired by a chance meeting with the great air fighter Oswald Boelcke, he decided to become a pilot himself. Later, Boelcke selected von Richthofen to join his elite fighter squadron (Jagdstaffel), Jasta 2. Von Richthofen won his first aerial combat over Cambrai, France, on September 17, 1916.

After his first victory, von Richthofen wrote to a friend in Berlin who was a jeweller and ordered a silver cup engraved with the date of the fight and the type of enemy machine. He continued this tradition until he had sixty cups, by which time the supply of silver in blockaded Germany was restricted.

Contrary to the popular opinion that no doubt has been reinforced by his reputation, Richthofen was not regarded by his peers as a spectacular pilot. Pilots of the day and historians have continually asserted that his brother Lothar was a much more natural pilot, being more skilled in aerobatic maneuvers. Rather than engage in such risky tactics, Manfred von Richthofen was famous for his strict adherence to a set of flight maxims (commonly referred to as the "Dicta Boelcke") to assure the greatest chance of both squadron and individual success. And while his natural skills as a pilot were not as renowned as some, Manfred von Richthofen viewed his plane as a platform from which to fire his guns, and, from that standpoint, his reputation and skill as an aerial marksman rank with any fighter pilot of his era.

On November 23, 1916 von Richthofen downed the British ace Lanoe Hawker, sometimes referred as "the British Boelcke." The victory came while von Richthofen was flying an Albatros D.II. After this engagement, he was convinced that he needed a fighter airplane with more agility—though this implied a loss of speed. Unfortunately, the Albatros fighter was the mainstay of the German air service at that time, and throughout 1917, and so the Baron flew Albatros D.III and D.V models well into 1917. However, he switched to a Halberstadt D.II biplane while the Albatros design was being modified after a spate of lower-wing spar failures. By September 1917 von Richthofen was flying the celebrated Fokker Dr.I triplane, the distinctive three-winged aircraft with which he is most commonly associated.


Manfred von Richthofen's Fokker triplane[edit]
The Flying Circus
In January 1917, after his 16th kill, von Richthofen received the Pour le M&eacute;rite, the highest military honour in Germany at the time. That same month, he assumed command of Jasta 11, which ultimately included some of the elite of Germany's pilots, many of whom he trained himself. Several in turn became leaders of their own squadrons.

As a practical aid to easy identification in the melee of air combat, Jasta 11's aircraft soon adopted red colourations with various individual markings, with some of Richthofen's planes painted entirely red. This practice soon had its use in German propaganda, even the RFC aircrew dubbing Von Richthofen 'Le Petit Rouge'.

Von Richthofen led his new unit to unparalleled success, peaking during "Bloody April" of 1917. In that month alone, he downed 22 British aircraft, raising his tally to 52. By June he was the commander of the first of the new larger Jagdgeschwader (wing) formations, leading Jagdgeschwader I composed of Jastas 4, 6, 10, and 11. These were highly mobile combined units that could be sent at short notice to different parts of the front as required. In this way, JG1 became "The Flying Circus" or "Richthofen's Circus", which got its name partially from the airplanes of all different colors. However, on the 6th of July, fighting a formation of No. 20 Squadron FE-2s, Richthofen was hit by gunfire and sustained a serious head wound that grounded him for several weeks. Later he would return to combat, although this head wound is thought to have caused lasting damage, as after the injury he often suffered from post-flight nausea and headaches, and a change in temperament. Richthofen was a brilliant tactician, building on Boelcke's shoulders. But unlike Boelcke, he led by example and force of will rather than by inspiration. He was often described as distant, unemotive, and rather humourless, though some colleagues contend otherwise. (See Karl Bodenschatz, Hunting With Richtofen).

Some say that, in 1918, Richthofen had become such a legend that it was feared that his death would be a blow to the morale of the German people. So, his superiors asked him to retire, but he refused, considering it his duty to carry on the fight in support of the foot soldier who had no choice but to fight.

[edit]
Death

Australian soldiers and airmen with the wreckage of von Richthofen's planeThe Red Baron met his death on April 21, 1918 from a single .303 bullet, while flying over Morlancourt Ridge, near the Somme River.

At the time he had been pursuing a Sopwith Camel piloted by a Canadian, Lieutenant Wilfrid "Wop" May of No. 209 Squadron, Royal Air Force. In turn the baron was chased by a Camel piloted by a school friend of May, Captain Arthur "Roy" Brown; the Red Baron turned to check the tail of his plane, that is, in the direction of Brown. He was then caught by the bullet, shot from behind and below, which passed diagonally through his chest.

Von Richthofen then made a hasty but controlled landing, in a field on a hill near the Bray-Corbie road, just north of the village of Vaux-sur-Somme, in a sector controlled by the Australian Imperial Force (AIF). His Fokker was not damaged by the landing. One account claims that von Richthofen died a few moments after Allied soldiers reached the plane, and that before he died, von Richthofen said a few words including "kaputt" ("broken"). Most authorities, however, believe that he was already dead or unconscious by that time.

No. 3 Squadron (3 Sqn) of the Australian Flying Corps, the nearest Allied air unit, assumed responsibility for the Baron's remains.

The identity of the person who shot the baron remains unknown; 0.303 ammunition was the standard ammunition for all machine guns and rifles used by British Empire forces during World War I. It is now considered all but certain by historians, doctors, and ballistics experts that von Richthofen was killed by an anti-aircraft (AA) machine gunner, as the wound through his body indicated that it had been caused by a bullet moving in an upward motion, providing ample evidence for a shot coming from the ground. Many experts believe that the shot probably came from Sergeant Cedric Popkin of the Australian 24th Machine Gun Company.[1] Popkin is the only ground-based machine gunner known to have fired at Richthofen from the right, immediately before he landed. Many Australian riflemen were also shooting at the baron at the time, so one of them may well have fired the fatal shot. The Royal Air Force gave official credit to Brown. However, it has been calculated that Richthofen would have lived for only 20-30 seconds after he was hit — due to the severity of his wound — and Brown did not fire at him within that time frame. It was reported that a spent .303 bullet was found inside Richthofen's clothing, which would also support a low velocity shot from a long distance.


3 Squadron officers were pallbearers and Australian soldiers acted as an honour guard during the Red Baron's funeral on April 22, 1918.The commanding officer of 3 Sqn, Major David Blake suggested initially that the baron had been killed by the crew of one of his squadron's RE8s, which had also fought Richthofen's unit that afternoon. However, following an autopsy which he witnessed, Blake became a strong proponent of the view that an AA machine gunner had killed the baron.

In common with most Allied air officers, Blake regarded von Richthofen with respect and he organised a full military funeral. The Baron was buried in the cemetery at the village of Bertangles near Amiens on April 22, 1918. Six airmen with the rank of captain — the closest peers of Richthofen — acted as pallbearers and an honour guard fired a salute. Other Allied squadrons presented memorial wreaths.

After the war, the Red Baron's remains were exhumed and reburied in the Richthofen family cemetery in Wiesbaden, Germany. The funeral, which was held in Berlin, Germany, was the largest the city has ever seen.

[edit]
Actual Victory Score
For decades after WW I, some British and American authors denigrated von Richtofen's 80 victories, insisting that his record was exaggerated for propaganda purposes. Some claimed that he took credit for planes downed by his squadron or wing. However, in the 1990s a resurgence in Great War scholarship resulted in detailed investigation of many facets of air combat. The definitive study was conducted by British historian Norman Franks with two colleagues, resulting in publication of Under the Guns of the Red Baron in 1998. Their research confirmed the veracity of at least 73 of von Richtofen's claims, with identities of the British or Allied airmen whom von Richthofen fought.

[edit]
Brain damage theory
In September 2004, researchers at the University of Missouri stated that it was likely that brain damage from the earlier head injury had played a part in the Baron's death. His behaviour after his injury was noted as consistent with brain-injured patients, and such an injury would have accounted for his lack of judgement on his final flight: flying too low over enemy territory and suffering target fixation. Indeed, for reasons that might never fully be known, on his final flight, Richthofen suddenly and inexplicably strayed from several of the strict rules of aerial combat, that he himself had devised and obeyed throughout his career. He may also have suffered from what is now recognised as combat fatigue; a symptom of which is a recklessness and disregard for personal safety, as evidenced by his final flight at low level over enemy lines.

[edit]
The Red Baron in popular culture
The Red Baron has become a symbol for dexterity, daring and victory, combined with an element of tragedy both as being 'on the losing side' and in his ultimate death.

The engine from von Richthofen's aircraft is on display in the Imperial War Museum in London as part of the War in the Air Exhibit. It still bears the damage sustained in that final crash.

Von Richthofen has been the subject of numerous films, both documentary and fictional, including the grossly inaccurate 1971 Roger Corman movie, Von Richthofen and Brown, alternatively titled The Red Baron.

An American frozen foods manufacturer has adopted his nickname on Red Baron Pizza accompanied by an image that looks substantially unlike von Richthofen. The image includes a handlebar moustache, which the real Richthofen never had.

In the comic strip Peanuts, one of Snoopy's favorite fantasies portrays him as a World War I flying ace (Arthur Brown's nickname was Snoopy) who has a personal grudge against the Red Baron. Snoopy can never best the Red Baron, who is never seen. The conflict between Snoopy and the Baron was turned into a video game for the Atari system in the 1980s, and again in 2006 by Namco for the Playstation 2, PSP, and Xbox game systems.

The Royal Guardsmen's debut album was in 1966. Among other popular songs, they recorded the song Snoopy vs. The Red Baron which made it to number two on request charts. The conflict between Snoopy and the Red Baron was also a theme in the songs Return of the Red Baron, The Smallest Astronaut, Snoopy for President, and Snoopy's Christmas, which are all on the album.

Corto Maltese, the most famous character of the Italian cartoonist Hugo Pratt, witnesses the defeat of the Red Baron in one of his adventures, where it's speculated that the Baron may have been killed by a single shot fired by a lone Australian gunman, although Corto Maltese himself doesn't believe it was the case.

British comedian Adrian Edmondson played the Baron in the fourth season of Blackadder in an episode entitled "Plan D: Private Plane". The humour of his sole scene was based upon the differences in British and German culture, Edmondson's use of a clich&eacute;d accent and mannerisms, and his quick, meaningless death at the hands of Lord Flasheart (Rik Mayall).

The World War I setting of George Lucas' television series The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles saw the appearance of the Baron (played by actor Marc Warren) in an episode where the young Indiana Jones is shot down over Germany.

The troubled main character of DC Comics's Enemy Ace comics is modeled after the Red Baron. Hans von Hammer, as he was called, even flew a red triplane during WWI. Unlike Richthofen, Von Hammer survives to fly Messerschmitts (red, of course) in WW2, including the Me 262.


Red Baron by DynamixThere have also been a number of WWI flight simulators involving Baron von Richthofen. They include Hunt for the Red Baron, written and published by Small Rockets, Knights of the Sky by Microprose, and Red Baron by Dynamix and published by Sierra Entertainment which was followed up by a less successful sequel Red Baron II.

A song entitled "Not the Red Baron" by Tori Amos on her Boys for Pele album contrasts the feeling of shock and sorrow felt by the death of a well-known figure (in this case, the Red Baron) with the unnoticed death of the majority of pilots who were entirely unknown, making the point that a death is really a death, regardless of who it is; it is terrible to consider one death more important than another.

In the cartoon, SWAT Kats: The Radical Squadron, a Red Baron-like character called the Red Lynx was portrayed as the enemy of Mayor Manx's great grandfather, the Blue Manx. The Red Lynx returned as a ghost, taking over a prototype jet named for his old enemy, until being shot down by Mayor Manx. Red Lynx was voiced by Mark Hamill.

One of the characters in Mobile Suit Gundam, a hugely popular Japanese sci-fi military drama, a saga that spans over thirty years, is believed to be at least partially based on Baron von Richthofen. Char Aznable, nicknamed "The Red Comet" was a legendary pilot for the fictional Principality of Zeon, and pilotted a variety of mobile suits (weapons designed for outer space combat), always painted a trademark red. A variation on this character has existed in every new Gundam series produced, and their red mobile suits pay homage to the real life hero who was recognized as the "Ace of aces".

The American heavy metal band Iced Earth recorded "Red Baron/Blue Max" based on von Richthofen for their "Glorious Burden" album.

The Spanish heavy metal band Bar&oacute;n Rojo is named after the Red Baron (in Spanish), and their logo is a shadow resembling a pilot.

In the videogame Empire Earth one of the campaigns is based on the Red Baron. Players take control of Manfred von Richthofen

In the videogame Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas a radio-controlled airplane called "Red Baron" can be controlled during a mission.

In the videogame Shining Force 2 Lemon, a german-looking powerful knight, is also known as The Red Baron. This character is wearing a red armor and a red shield.

Namco's videogame Skykid depicts the fanciful air journey of the "Red Baron" and the "Blue Max".

In an episode of SpongeBob SquarePants, SpongeBob shouts, "Squidward, this ship belongs to the Red Baron!" It happens to be the Flying Dutchman's ship.

The German power metal band Masterplan features a track on their "Aeronautics" album entitled "Crimson Rider" which mentions a "Baron of the sky". This is presumably a tribute to Richthofen since his name, The Red Baron, relates to "Crimson Rider".

In the science-fiction television show Space: Above and Beyond, the marines encounter a Chig "ace of aces" flying an advanced stealth fighter, who ambushes and destroys several USMC squadrons. Naval intelligence nicknames him "Chiggy von Richthofen". Several fighter squadrons are sent to destroy him in "Operation Red Baron."

Similarly, an episode of the sci-fi series Battlestar Galactica revolved around the hunt for an "ace" Cylon Raider nicknamed Scar by Galactica's pilots because of the heavy damage it has endured from multiple skrimishes. The story of Scar contains many parallels to that of Baron von Richthofen.

In Fred Saberhagen's short story "Wings Out of Shadow" (part of the 'Berkserker' shared-world SF series), a captured historian uses 'personality modules' based on several WWI fighter aces, including von Richthoften, to suborn the spacecraft he is forced use against his own allies.

In The Star Wars X-Wing Saga there is an Imperial flying ace named Baron Soontir Fel. He commands the elite 181st TIE Squadron, and they are identified by 2 red blood stripes on their fighters as well as their jumpsuits.

In one of WB's "Bugs Bunny" cartoons, "Dumb Patrol," Yosemite Sam plays the Red Baron and is shown as a negative character who fights against Bugs Bunny.