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View Full Version : J2-L70-Z435 - theory that it is Israelite haplogroup



lyakh
25-03-18, 19:20
I have a hope that this topic would not be classified as religious propaganda. It is about quite thought-provoking theory about one of straight male lineages. I suppose that existence of haplogroup J2-Z435 may be a proof of existence of characters from religious books.

I coined a theory that quite common "European" subclade of J2 - Z435 is the lineage of biblical patriarch Jacob. I suppose that its holders may be descendants of Jacob who lived about 3800 - 3700 ybp.

YFull estimates age of Z435 as 3300 ybp, which is quite close to the period in which patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob lived. YFull estimates may be to 20-25% too low. Z435 expands quite rapidly (to at least 5 lineages: M137, M318, PH2725(?), CTS3601, Z2177).

There is also on YFull tree Z435* sample from Portugal and L70* sample from Ajlun region in northwestern Jordan (maybe descendant of Ammonites, who were descendants of Abraham's nephew Lot). L70xZ435 was also found in Germany (#N14008 in FTDNA), Spain (#357685) and Saudi Arabia (#M10220). In FTDNA project for haplogroup J2-L24 there is quite many (about 300-400) samples of L70 (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-L24-Y-DNA?iframe=yresults), so it is quite common lineage. It is interested why L70+ Z435- sample was found in Saudi Arabia - maybe it is descendant of Ishmael or one of sons of Keturah?

Maciamo
25-03-18, 20:11
J2-L70 is much more common among non-Jews than Jews. I think that says it all.

Most Jews belong to J2-PF4888 or J2-L556.

LeBrok
25-03-18, 23:10
I wonder why Genesis doesn't say that Adam had slept with Neanderthal girl?

lyakh
26-03-18, 20:16
J2-L556 has TMRCA about 1150 ybp according to YFull (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L556/). On YFull tree there is many samples of L556. L556 is definitely not a good candidate for being Abraham's haplogroup.

I suppose that many L70+ individuals may be descendants of Jews who were assimilated or converted to Christianity.

Two clusters within Z435 appear to be Jewish: PH2725+, P244.2+ (although there is in FTDNA base #247769 from Italy, who does not appear to be Jewish) and CTS3601+, PF5456+, BY268+. It is interesting how old are MRCAs of these clades. Are they older than 1750 ybp?

There is a result from Iraq (#M6320) in cluster 051500 L24+, L25+, Z438+, Z387+, L70+, gamma(?) in L24 FTDNA's project who is CTS6061+.

There is also #141110, whose paternal ancestor is mentioned as "Josef Moshe Liquornik first rabbi of Sadagora". He is in cluster 051501 L24+, L25+, Z438+, Z387+, L70+, gamma(10). There are also results from Russian Federation in that cluster: #173802 (Leonid Abraimov; d.c.1912; Shchetinovka, Russia), #43367 (morris enushevsky 1885_1969), #217849 (Beresteckiy Michail Pavlovich b. 1909 and d. 1979), #130001 (Simon Jackson, b 1850s, Russia - d. 1931, Boston).

In cluster 052200 L24+, L25+, Z438+, Z387+, L70+, Wingo(10) there is #284196 (Moysey Dubow b.1855 Tetiev, Ukraine).

#50950 (William James b 1729-1734 Rowan Co, NC), who is in FTDNA project for J-L24 (where he is in cluster 059002 L24+, L25+, Z438+, Z387+, L70+, Z435+, Z2177+, PH185+, FGC24630+ alpha(8)) is also in Jewish DNA FTDNA project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults). So it looks that it is not certain that not all Z435 comes from the Jews.

#385615 is positive for both M318 and Z2177 (in that table with SNPs of L24 FTDNA project: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-L24-Y-DNA?iframe=ysnp), so it looks that M318 very probably is a branch of Z2177. In current YFull tree M318 is not under Z2177, but directly under Z435 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z435/).

Messier 67
27-03-18, 23:35
Looking at what are the sons of Noah, and only IJ makes any sense:

Hamites: J1

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/HG_J1_%28ADN-Y%29.PNG

Shemites: J2

9894

Japhethites: I

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I-borders.gif

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Josephustable_3.svg

There are other survivors of the flood, but if the story is true, not anything else makes sense for something so broad, considering blood brothers/ paternal family. And the flood could have occurred sometime around 22K YBP or 12K YBP.

On the story of Adam and Eve. The Persian Gulf as Garden of Eden (http://articles.latimes.com/1998/sep/20/news/mn-24573) and the children of Adam and Eve kicked out, Persian Gulf Flooded, and move east of Eden, present day Iran.

2/3 samples in Iran, after the Persian Gulf Oasis flooded, belong to J2a, showing in fact J2a did occupy east of Eden after the loss of the Persian Gulf Oasis:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34338-GEDmatch-list-of-ancient-samples-with-kit-numbers

9895

That could possibly mean the flood story happened before the Garden of Eden story.

leperrine
14-07-18, 16:45
I have a hope that this topic would not be classified as religious propaganda. It is about quite thought-provoking theory about one of straight male lineages. I suppose that existence of haplogroup J2-Z435 may be a proof of existence of characters from religious books.

I coined a theory that quite common "European" subclade of J2 - Z435 is the lineage of biblical patriarch Jacob. I suppose that its holders may be descendants of Jacob who lived about 3800 - 3700 ybp.

YFull estimates age of Z435 as 3300 ybp, which is quite close to the period in which patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob lived. YFull estimates may be to 20-25% too low. Z435 expands quite rapidly (to at least 5 lineages: M137, M318, PH2725(?), CTS3601, Z2177).

There is also on YFull tree Z435* sample from Portugal and L70* sample from Ajlun region in northwestern Jordan (maybe descendant of Ammonites, who were descendants of Abraham's nephew Lot). L70xZ435 was also found in Germany (#N14008 in FTDNA), Spain (#357685) and Saudi Arabia (#M10220). In FTDNA project for haplogroup J2-L24 there is quite many (about 300-400) samples of L70 (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-L24-Y-DNA?iframe=yresults), so it is quite common lineage. It is interested why L70+ Z435- sample was found in Saudi Arabia - maybe it is descendant of Ishmael or one of sons of Keturah?


Lyakh, I actually came to a similar conclusion to you. After quite a few years of research, I think the majority of what we would consider ancient Israelite's (descendants of Jacob) actually became Christian. Maybe I could do an extensive breakdown of this concept if enough people are interested. I know for some it's a very sensitive topic.

Rethel
22-07-18, 12:08
Hamites: J1

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/smilies/facepalm2.gif


Japhethites: I

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/smilies/facepalm2.gif


There are other survivors of the flood,

Could you at least read the book which you are talking about? https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/smilies/facepalm2.gif


That could possibly mean the flood story happened before the Garden of Eden story.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/smilies/facepalm2.gif https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/smilies/facepalm2.gif https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/smilies/facepalm2.gif https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/smilies/facepalm2.gif https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/smilies/facepalm2.gif

Angela
22-07-18, 15:08
Looking at what are the sons of Noah, and only IJ makes any sense:

Hamites: J1

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/HG_J1_%28ADN-Y%29.PNG

Shemites: J2

9894

Japhethites: I

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I-borders.gif

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Josephustable_3.svg

There are other survivors of the flood, but if the story is true, not anything else makes sense for something so broad, considering blood brothers/ paternal family. And the flood could have occurred sometime around 22K YBP or 12K YBP.

On the story of Adam and Eve. The Persian Gulf as Garden of Eden (http://articles.latimes.com/1998/sep/20/news/mn-24573) and the children of Adam and Eve kicked out, Persian Gulf Flooded, and move east of Eden, present day Iran.

2/3 samples in Iran, after the Persian Gulf Oasis flooded, belong to J2a, showing in fact J2a did occupy east of Eden after the loss of the Persian Gulf Oasis:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34338-GEDmatch-list-of-ancient-samples-with-kit-numbers

9895

That could possibly mean the flood story happened before the Garden of Eden story.

I hope I don't need to tell readers that this is complete and utter nonsense.

bigblob
11-12-18, 16:45
Adam and Eve and Noah and the Ark is nothing but Sumerian mythology.

jewishdelight
11-12-18, 22:22
I'm Jewish and I'm E1b1b1c.

Fatherland
12-12-18, 00:42
Not likely - unless we have access to ancient remains to prove this claim!

Juan.delajara
12-12-18, 01:47
J2L-70 is clearly Anatolic/ Aegean . One of its clades, CTS3601 is highly probably part of the Greek expansion in the west ( see the paper published by Nature last May regarding this matter), and Z435, as proposed by Maciamo, among others, is probably italic, and was expanded by the Roman Empire. Of course future ancient DNA will clear this situation. Although there are different scientific papers that support what I just wrote.

bigblob
12-12-18, 11:43
Im also Jewish and I carry J2.